U5 combat feedback THF exclusively

[Aesop]

I do not think giving some amount of double strike chance to 2hers would make it impossible for a duelist/swashbuckler character type at all.

It would reduce the relative effectiveness of that style character and thus make it once more a moot idea. Look at it this way for a sec.


THF gets GB say on 75% of his attacks and DS on 25% of his attacks


The Einhander gets not GB but gets DS on 50% of his attacks


THF do significantly more damage per hit than the Einhander and has similar # or attacks in a combat plus has Glancing Blows... where is the point for the Einhander then?


you may say well just up the DS% for Einhander... well then they invade the space of TWF who would have something like 100% OH and 10% DS. OH has less damage than the Einhander main attacks but OH attacks still proc effects as well.


Instead keep the DS for everyone low and make that a benefit of Einhander and you can balance the styles significantly easier



There are currently few reasons to do the styles other than THF and TWF. I lookat this as an opportunity to expand what DDO has to offer.

Everyone is screamin about nerfs but I think we can use this time to some advantage if we get the thoughts in the right direction.



Glancing Blows: Reduce their frequency but increase the effects Proc... or perhaps remove the Proc completely and just have effects activate if a GB lands. What would be an acceptable % of Attacks producing Glancing Blows if every Glancing Blow had full effect? 75%? 50%? If Glancing Blows did base 10% Physical Damage and the Feats increased that by 10% each would that be accaptable? Would 40% Base Physical Damage plus Effects be too powerful? Would THF be in the top tier? Two Handed Fighting focuses on extra daamge from Glancing Blows.


Off Hand Attacks: Find the right balance. Tempest should be the best at this. It doesn't have to be so much better that it leaves all others wondering why they even bother. Tempest could also include improved damage for off hand attacks. Monks already have full off hand strength why shouldn't tempest get three quarters or so strength off hand. Maybe they have a proc rate 20% higher than the average TWF but also have more straight damage off hande would balance that out. Two Weapon Fighting gains its extra Damage from Off Hand Attacks.


Weapon and Shield: Nearly useless for DPS, only really useful for Intimitanking. Why shouldn't this be a viable style for permanent use. Make a tiered Feat Tree for this Shield Bash, Improved SHield Bash and Greater Shield Bash to have similar Proc effects to how Glancing Blows and Off Hand Attacks are going to be done. Is Shield Style going to be the optimal DPS style? Not a snowballs chance in hell but making it viable stylistically should be a goal. Weapon and Shield gains Extra Damage from Shield Bash Attacks.

Einhander: Single weapon combat. One Handed quick and precise. Same idea. Make it viable and fun. A series of Feat that make it a good DPS option if fully explored. INtroduce the Swashbuckler Class and have it grant said feats. Put something like Single Weapon Defense as an auxilary feat. Einhander would focus on extra main hand attacks granted through a Double Strike mechanic.


Each of these Styles could be affected in similar ways by Movement and Attack Sequence.

perhaps like I'd mentioned Moving reduces the Proc Chance of the individual styles special attacks (GB,OH,DS,SB) by 20% or something and the Spriong attack feat reduces that by 10%.

perhaps Attack sequence reduces or improves those chances -10/0/+10/+20 (or something like that... numbers can be balanced later)



ranged and thrown is another ball of wax and need more solutions to it



The point is that they have an opportunity to make more styles of combat viable and fun if they don't screw it up. More styles of characters and more builds means more characters and more characters means more slots. More slots means more revenue.


just spit ballin on this one

Aesop

[Monkey_Archer]

So...63 more damage per second with TWO epic SoS equivalents, that is funny =]

Im probably not laughing at the same thing you guys are however

Yeah, after the TWF nerf it would still be much higher...
With the current system dual eSOSs woul be over 800 dps

[Winteris]

Lol, this is funny, the fact is, you can get high dex with a thf if you want, but you cant dump dex with a twf if you think the benefits are not enough for the investment of dex,

but the truth is that maybe only pallys have some problems with covering all needed abilities with 32 points build, so putting 15 points in dex (+2 tome r no rare ) is no sacrifice at all, there is no better place for those points

and saying that half the population has 6 lvls of ranger it disqualifies any other argument you can make...

u sure ? all those rgr splashed pallys, monks, rogs, battle clerics, monster type builds, r u really sure that it is not close to a half of melee population ?

penalize rangers, rogues, monks, paladins and any other odd melee build like arcane melee battle clerics or the like.

and nerf we r now discussing panalize exactly those classes even more, mine version is easier to balance and have many other advantages, but it is no thread to disscus it, it supposed to be THF feedback thread.

[Scraap]

Well, if we're talking S&B output into the equation, just to pick some simple numbers to spitball with:

TWF chance:

	Doublestrike	
Tempest III	+5%*
Wind IV		+10%
Zeal		+10%
Alacrity	+10%

THF -3% chance boost per

	Doublestrike	
None	+5%*
THF	+8%
ITHF	+11%
GTHF	+14%

Enhancement line:
Shield Spikes -(procs on-hit 1d4/1d6/1d8/1d12)

Shield Spikes		5%
Improved Shield Spikes	6%
Great Shield Spikes	7%
Massive Shield Spikes	8%

Would make it easier for an intimitank to keep doing damage as well as generating some hate to keep the focus on them, with Shield Bash, Improved Shield Bash and Greater Shield Bash adding, say, multiples to that percent chance _when bashing_, which comes out to...

Shield Spikes -(procs on-hit 1d4/1d6/1d8/1d12)

				Base	SB	ISB	GSB
Shield Spikes			5%	10%	15%	20%
Improved Shield Spikes 	 	6%	12%	18%	24%
Great Shield Spikes 		7%	14%	21%	28%
Massive Shield Spikes 	 	8%	16%	24%	32%

Which would make for quite a nice porcupine, I'd think, if in addition to the inherent auto-attack, you get a roughly 1/3 chance for an additional burst of 1d12. (forget if shieldspikes are straight damage or STR+, and don't have the sourcebooks around atm to check.If so, might end up more than a bit OP. But that'd be the general gist to put it in perspective)

Would also like to note I do agree with the notion that movement should reduce proc-chances across the board.

Edit: apologies for the slightly off topic nature of this particular post, but it had occurred to me that the initial suggestion I'd made when taken in isolation could lead to some bad, bad places.

[Ethias]

It would reduce the relative effectiveness of that style character and thus make it once more a moot idea. Look at it this way for a sec.

THF gets GB say on 75% of his attacks and DS on 25% of his attacks

The Einhander gets not GB but gets DS on 50% of his attacks

THF do significantly more damage per hit than the Einhander and has similar # or attacks in a combat plus has Glancing Blows... where is the point for the Einhander then?

If the only point to single weapon combat is DS, then it is pretty much like dual wielding with one weapon. Not a big fan of that; I am not really sure how best to adapt single wielding specifically to DDO, but I think that the bastard-sword-glancing-blow stuff is moving in that direction; hell, give THF a small DS bonus and you can single wield a bastard sword or dwarven axe with nothing else if you really want!

Also, 25% seems like an awful lot of DS for the thf line. I was thinking more like 15% at max, probably more like 10%. ITHF and TGHF giving 5% each, or 5% for each one.

imo, you can make an argument for "Einhander" (ugh) as an interesting style through other methods as well, rather than relying on it solely from the standpoint of DS. I would like to see any kind of Duelist line granting haste and bonus to special attacks as much as DS. *shrugs* I would rather see Einhander brought in the direction of haste, perhaps with a bit of DS at higher ends, but anyway, Einhander is definitely going off track from the "THF exclusive" aspect of this thread.

I understand why they are nerfing twitching, but I would like to see THF get something in return.

[Consumer]

Yeah, after the TWF nerf it would still be much higher...
With the current system dual eSOSs woul be over 800 dps

I used the version from your post rather than 2 actual epic SoSs.

Adding in the extra base damage from 9 to 14 still only gives 778.61, would like to know how your getting higher.

Gear setup I'm using for the calcs:

Race: WF

Trinket - Epic bloodstone
Head - Epic Helm of the Red Dragon
Goggles - Tharne's
Neck - Shintao cord
Docent - Redscale
Cloak - min II
Belt - Knost's
Bracers - Levik's
Ring - Encrusted
Ring - Kyosho's
Boots - Madstone

Using max sustainable str against trash with no resistance not quite sure how your getting higher. I could ofcourse include titans grip and pally/monk past lives in which case I get 832.03 DPS.

[Gercho]

but the truth is that maybe only pallys have some problems with covering all needed abilities with 32 points build, so putting 15 points in dex (+2 tome r no rare ) is no sacrifice at all, there is no better place for those points

Check every thf build and you will see that no one starts with dex above 12, and a lot (inluding all paladins) start with dex 8, so in fact, all those builds find a better use for the points than dex.

u sure ? all those rgr splashed pallys, monks, rogs, battle clerics, monster type builds, r u really sure that it is not close to a half of melee population ?

There are a lot of different builds that include at least 6 levels of ranger, that doesnt means that there are many players with each build, i would say that around 1% of the paladins splash 6 lvls of ranger, for fighters is more common, maybe 10 or 15%, clerics with 6 lvls of ranger are not common at all, barbarians neither...
Anyway, thats not the main point, the main point is, check every THF build and find the ones that start with dex higher than 12, and you will see that a lot of them start even lower...

[guyge1]

IMO - Glancing blows shouldn't have been in the system in the first place. I think it also creates an unnecessary load by having to calculate what is nearby that should take damage. A two handed weapon should just do massive damage when it hits, just less often (except the cleave which power players seem to hate).

I Have a THF Pally with Power Attack, Cleave, and Great Cleave.
My Hack and Attack tactic.

*Find Small enemy group with Caster*or 2 close enemy.
*Run up*
Que Cleave
*Take 3 Steps Back* or to next closest mob
*Wait for it*
*Wait for it*
Que Great Cleave
Que Cleave
*Trip*
*Smite*
*Smite*

Usually works for melee enemies.
Of course chase down the rest/ranged.
I like the Style and collect all the types of Two Handed large Weapons.
Since the weapons are larger maybe consider another critical roll or a bonus to the modifier since it is a Large weapon that would cause a lot more power & momentum damage coming from the weight of it.

2cents

[krud]

Let's see what happens when we compare the dps of a human twf tempest ranger, with a human thf frenzied beserker. I'm using human because it is a good average baseline race, and because I can compare the two styles independent of racial enhancements/abilities (not gonna count HV boosts). I'm also only going to compare only what each class/style brings to the table, so no external buffs, class specific raid loot, pots, or item clickies. Just the spells/enhancements/abilities that come with the build.

Assumptions: Min2 khopesh or Great Axe vs acid immune mob, + 6 stat items, bloodstone, 18 base Str, +2tomes, max damage related enhancements.
Sources: http://ddowiki.com/page/Enhancements
http://ddowiki.com/index.php?title=Attack_sequence&
http://ddowiki.com/page/Glancing_blow
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=201535

TWF tempest ranger
Strength 34 : 18base +5level +6item +2ram's might +1human adaptability +2 tome.

Avg base damage:
5.5 avg GS khopesh
+5 weapon
+12 str (+6 offhand)
+5 power attack
+7 holy
+14 FvNME
48.5 per hit (42.5 offhand)

Avg crit damage:
5.5 avg khopesh
+5 weapon
+12 str (+6 offhand)
+5 power attack
+6 seeker
+14 FvNME
47.5 x 3 = 142.5 per crit (124.5 offhand)
+7 holy = 149.5 per crit (131.5 offhand)

Base attack rate @ bab20 = 88 attacks/min
current tempest attack rate = 97 attacks/min * 5/4 (tempest3) = 121 (97 offhand)
new attack rate = 88*105%*105% = 97 attacks/min (88 offhand)
*assuming tempest 3 extra main hand attack actually adds this amount. no values provided

Avg dps:
current:
avg dps main hand = [48.5 * (15/d20) + 149.5 * (4/d20)] * 121attacks/min * 1min/60sec = 133.7
avg dps off hand = [42.5 * (15/d20) + 131.5 * (4/d20)] * 97attacks/min * 1min/60sec = 94.0
total current TWF dps = 227.7

new:
avg dps main hand = [43.5 * (15/d20) + 134.5 * (4/d20)] * 97attacks/min * 1min/60sec = 107.1
avg dps off hand = [41 * (15/d20) + 120 * (4/d20)] * 88attacks/min * 1min/60sec = 85.3
total TWF dps (new) = 192.4


THF frenzied berzerker barbarian
Strength 50 : 18base +5level +6item +12rage +2 frenzy +4death frenzy+1human adaptability +2 tome.

Avg base damage:
10.5 avg GS Great Axe
+5 weapon
+30 str
+16 PA
61.5 base per hit
+7 holy
+21 vicious = 89.5 per hit

Avg crit damage:
10.5 avg Great Axe
+5 weapon
+30 str
+16 PA
+6 seeker
67.5 x 5 = 337.5 per crit
+7 holy
+21 vicious = 365.5 per crit

Glancing blows:
61.5 base damage * 30% = 18.5 per hit
*estimated glancing blow damage, ddowiki. No info on FB extra effect proc rate.

Base attack rate @ bab20 = 88 attacks/min

Glancing blow rate = 88 * 3/4 = 66 attacks/min

Avg dps
avg main dps = [89.5 * (17/d20) + 365.5 * (2/d20)] * 88attacks/min * 1min/60sec = 165.2
glancing blow = 18.5 * 66attacks/min * 1min/60sec = 20.4
total THF dps = 185.4


Hopefully my calculations are correct.

p.s. The interesting thing I see is how much higher dps goes when all external factors are considered (buffs, songs, clickies, extra gear effects, etc). When people post 300+dps numbers, fully 1/2 to 1/3 of their dps comes from factors unrelated to the build. Are there truly gimped builds, or is it mostly just a lack of the right buffs and farmed gear? Makes me wonder just how far can you buff up and gear out a "gimped" build? Can you actually make it respectable with enough buff, fluff, and stuff?

[Consumer]

snip

Very very far off, multiple sources of damage missing like greensteel effects, haste boosts if 18/1/1 or 18/2, activation times and so on.

Have to add around 300 DPS to your exploiter/tempest, not going to work out a Human Barb because Dwarf and WF are far superior choices.

[krud]

Very very far off, multiple sources of damage missing like greensteel effects, haste boosts if 18/1/1 or 18/2, activation times and so on.

Have to add around 300 DPS to your exploiter/tempest, not going to work out a Human Barb because Dwarf and WF are far superior choices.

Did you read the intro? I wanted to compare apples to apples, so chose pure human as a baseline. Feel free to choose your own race, but a basic human build is a good average starting point. Plus, I'm not interested in whatever external factors you can bring to the table. Anyone can farm their asses off for every frickin item in game, and bring their own pocket buffers. All this is doing is comparing the basics without all the external fluff.

Telling me "I can farm for more stuff to make the numbers higher", or "splash this and that for a little extra", doesn't change the relative ratios among THF/TWF/TWF(nerfed) that I came up with, which basically shows that the nerfed TWF values are almost equal to THF, when currently they are quite a bit ahead.

[Consumer]

Did you read the intro? I wanted to compare apples to apples, so chose pure human as a baseline. Feel free to choose your own race, but a basic human build is a good average starting point. Plus, I'm not interested in whatever external factors you can bring to the table. Anyone can farm their asses off for every frickin item in game, and bring their own pocket buffers. All this is doing is comparing the basics without all the external fluff.

Telling me "I can farm for more stuff to make the numbers higher", or "splash this and that for a little extra", doesn't change the relative ratios among THF/TWF/TWF(nerfed) that I came up with, which basically shows that the nerfed TWF values are almost equal to THF, when currently they are quite a bit ahead.

It might be the basics but your basics are wrong, also you include a bloodstone and two tier III greensteels as gear you dont have to farm?

[krud]

It might be the basics but your basics are wrong, also you include a bloodstone and two tier III greensteels as gear you dont have to farm?

Take those out and I guarantee the basic premise remains the same. Add in all the extra weapon effects you mention and the premise will remain the same. maybe a splash here or a different race there may tweak the numbers, but it won't change the result. You can build any situationally maxxed dps twf and/or thf if those numbers aren't big enough for you, but the basic premise will not change. TWF and THF will end up roughly equal with the new nerf

[Chai]

I am a strong proponent of leaving the Epic SoS out of the discussion. The weapon is not overpowered, its as powerful as an EPIC weapon is supposed to be. Minimal DR bypassing capabilities and increasing uselessness with the fortification of your target. The weapon is fine the way it is.

The gap between the best and second best weapon is larger than the gap between the second best weapon and the 17th best weapon. How is this not overpowered?

I also strongly disagree that TWF should deal more dps to a raid boss than a THF. You are standing there with a huge AXE or SWORD hacking away at your target, how can two khopeshes deal more damage than getting dented in by a mean double bladed AXE the size of your body, if you wanna talk how things should be realistically.

I can cut through 3 foot diameter thick rolls of carpeting diagonally just as easily with my TaiChi longsword as I can with my GuanDao. Two handed weapons in real life dont really inflict more damage than one handers. The realism factor, however, has no bearing on game balance, which is what we are talking about here.

Only valid argument is that they need to grind extra ingredients to create a second weapon, that I agree. But If you give the bonus to damage procs such as lightning and burst damage, It's sufficient to balance the classes, but making them deal more front number damage than a THF is rediculous.

The largest determining factor in the amount of damage between the styles is the number of attacks. Yeah THF gets more PA damage and such + str and a half, but the sheer number of attacks by twf are what set it apart. They are taking a hit on this in the proposed nerfage.

[Consumer]

i Can Cut Through 3 Foot Diameter Thick Rolls Of Carpeting Diagonally Just As Easily With My Taichi Longsword As I Can With My Guandao. Two Handed Weapons In Real Life Dont Really Inflict More Damage Than One Handers. The Realism Factor, However, Has No Bearing On Game Balance, Which Is What We Are Talking About Here.

Carpet!!!!

Tai Chi!!!!


Extreme Dude!!!!!

[Chai]

Heh its funny how people are placing me in the minority because I'll tr for 10 hp but...

Once you reach a point of saturation on your character with absolutely no way to improve him, you start delving into tr zones if it means you can give him something else. After 4 years of playing with numbers, performing tests, and tweaking and reworking the character- whats another 10 day grind gonna do...

Maximum damage output characters with a preferred playstyle such as shade and myself have no ac and no evasion to mitigate incoming damage. these builds will get hit back because they are meant to deal with aggro, your healthbar and dr are the only lines of defense (the latter applies moreso to barbs, fighters get dr solely as a function of gear, so they depend more on hp as offensive builds).

Anyone who has adapted THF as their chosen playstyle and have perfected it need no further explanation as to why shade is 100% correct in his previous post. You will still get more dps out of twitching even with the glancing blow nerf installed, and I will drop the GTHF feat because it will no longer be useful to me. Problem is barbs get the hp in return, fighters do not. Both of our glances have been taken away, but the barb has risen in his defenses- its just not a fair split in my eyes.

A fighter can get those hp in return if they want. If they took the feats as fighter only feats it will just take more reworking, but they can do it. They get 18 feats, so swapping feats out has always been a pain for fighters, but this doesnt start with the proposed nerf. This has always been the case. Wait til they start tacking on double strike chances to the combat lines, and then lets see if there will be a mass exodus of combat feat dropping. I am inclined to believe they will work somethign in that will make people want to keep those feats. Quote me and call it conjecture if you wish, but this is a pattern ive seen for a while now. This, and making you take feats and enhancements you wouldnt normally take just to qualify for the PRE you want.

Most people reach that level of saturation and roll up a new toon. After the second TR, you really dont gain anything anyhow as far as build is concerned.

Where twitching loses DPS is multiple targets. This currently is one of the things that sets THF apart as a combat style. You can play hard to get and still damage piles of mobs. After the nerf this wont be the case. This is the single largest reason so far that I am instinctively against this. Shade is correct that you will still get more single target DPS than you would if you didnt twitch, but you still get less after than before due to no glances. Its still a playstyle nerf, just like DA was a playstyle nerf.

[BlackSteel]

if they go foward with the changes to TWF, they should really redo THF at the same time instead of a later date.

having glancing blows proc on a % system similar to the offhand would be just fine. And you can tweak to percent to whatever seems suitable. If most TWF's cap at 80% offhand, have most THF's cap at 40% glancing. The fact that glancing blows already do less damage and have less effects than the offhand are more than enough to offset the fact they hit multiple mobs. Couple that with the lesser chance to proc and you can call that even for having 1.5 str and double PA.

[Chai]

Carpet!!!!

Tai Chi!!!!


Extreme Dude!!!!!

Yeah most people look at TaiChi as some kind of non combat style because they see people practicing it slowly as some sort of health training or something compared to yoga here in the States. It would be cool to take these people to WuDan Mountain for a few weeks and show people whats really up with this style of combat however. It stands right up there with WuShu in effectiveness.

[Consumer]

Yeah most people look at TaiChi as some kind of non combat style because they see people practicing it slowly as some sort of health training or something compared to yoga here in the States. It would be cool to take these people to WuDan Mountain for a few weeks and show people whats really up with this style of combat however. It stands right up there with WuShu in effectiveness.

Can't tell if joke or serious

[Chai]

Can't tell if joke or serious

You either know or you dont.