FAVOR 3000 32 point Drow

[Murderface]

Drow also make excellent Paladins. So let's see....
They make good Paladins, Rogues, Sorcerers, Wizards, Bards, and many flavor builds benefit from their racial bonuses. That's almost 50% of the classes. Doesn't sound too bad to me....

The fact of the matter is that Drow are a poor man's 32 point build. Everyone gets excited when they unlock Drow and rush off to roll one. Giving them more build points at start will make them surpass all other races in terms of general power, which will lead to everyone wanting to play them (with the exception of fanatics, ie WF etc).

You think the Dragontouched Armor Squad sucks? Wait and see what happens when it's the Drow Dragontouched Armor Squad if they decide to listen to this request.

Clone armies FTW!

found it lacking went and trd to wf pally but i could have also went for human both seem a better choice.

[gavagai]

Str based TWF Paladin.
Best in the business.
+2 Dex allows for easily attainable 17 Dex needed for I/GTWF.
+2 Cha allows for easily attainable 18/20 Cha for DM3/4.
The rest you use to pump Str, Con & Wis as you prefer.
No other race can get the starting Pally stats that a Drow can get, and have racial enhancements on rapiers AND short swords for TWF to boot.

Starting stats aren't that important, however, since Paladins have fixed stat targets. You don't get any benefit from an 18 Dex. That's part of the reason why 3 +2 stats aren't worth as much as 1 good +4 stat.

Once you get a +2 tome (which every character will have by 20), the 16 starting Dex is moot. The difference between Drow and Human is having ITWF at level 6 (Drow) versus ITWF at 12 (Human).

Whereas once both have the 17 Dex, the human gets many benefits the Drow doesn't -- most important being the feat, Human Adaptability, Versatility, and Healing Amp.

This isn't to say Drow are bad -- they are better than most other races for Paladin. But Paladin is supposed to be the strongest case for their power -- and they are lacking even there.

[gavagai]

have fun building the following stats with a human. you dont even have to reach the 10 int


Str: 15
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 8
Cha: 17

oh you cant?

You don't need the 10 INT with the human free skill point. [This is assuming a DPS build without Combat Expertise.]

If you don't want to wager on a +4 tome, you can get:

STR 16
DEX 15
CON 12
INT 8
WIS 8
CHA 16

Put 1 level up into CHA, put the Human Adaptability into STR, +2 Dex tome, and you've matched with the Drow stat-wise by 20. No sweat.

[Visty]

You don't need the 10 INT with the human free skill point. [This is assuming a DPS build without Combat Expertise.]

If you don't want to wager on a +4 tome, you can get:

STR 16
DEX 15
CON 12
INT 8
WIS 8
CHA 16

Put 1 level up into CHA, put the Human Adaptability into STR, and you're perfectly matched with the Drow stat-wise by 20. No. Sweat.

so your point is that because +3 tomes exist drow have no purpose anymore

how many +3 tomes to your chars have?
and how many of those are a specificy stat
and most important: how long did it take you to get them?

[Calebro]

This isn't to say Drow are bad -- they are better than most other races for Paladin. But Paladin is supposed to be the strongest case for their power -- and they are lacking even there.

I didn't say it was the strongest case for their power. You asked us to name a build. We did.
You want another one? Nuker Sorcerer. No other race can get higher SP or DCs for nuking.
Now you'll invariably tell me that WF are better for the self healing, but the fact of the matter is that on a pure nuker, the SP used on healing is SP *not* used on nuking, so it's not equal.

Purely a matter of preference, and we can see where yours is, but that doesn't make them any less powerful.

[gavagai]

so your point is that because +3 tomes exist drow have no purpose anymore

how many +3 tomes to your chars have?
and how many of those are a specificy stat
and most important: how long did it take you to get them?

Most Drow and Humans alike need the +3 stat tome, so that's not my point. Every Paladin that aspires for DMIV has a headache of grinding ahead of him/her unless they use level-ups in CHA. That's just how Divine Might works for us in DDO.

My point is that Drow could use a little love. The benefit for "+2 to 3 stats" is relatively weak when those stats are not very useful together. You usually need either INT or CHA, or DEX. Bonuses in all 3 is not "equal" to awesome-sauce.

A better SR might tip the scales a little. Better enhancements might tip the scales a little (though Paladins are already AP tight).

Most races at least have enhancements to boost their core stats; it wouldn't be insane to suggest Drow get a choice between +CHA, +INT, or +Dex enhancements. It won't help the Paladin because Paladins have their own little stat issues, but it will surely benefit the bards, wizards, sorcs, &c. As it stands, Drow casters are often in the same DC range as their human counterparts, but with greater weaknesses.

And as we await the +4 STR Half-Orc, its rather silly that there are no races that currently fill the +4 casting stat niche.

[Tyrande]

I see the problem with drows are:

1) DDO favored CON a lot in end games. A lost of -2 CON is huge compared to other races.

2) Having innate SR or not has no consequence since with items you can get SR22 or SR25, better than the innate SR. This ability is pale in comparison with say, the warforged immunities.

3) Low caster power in late games. A +2 INT, +2 CHA, +2 DEX advantages diminished to almost nothing at level 20 since drow casters doesn't really have a lot of power at level 20 places like Shavarath. Even epics favored melees with the right combination of weapons, destruction, improved destruction. Not many melees carry improved shattlemantle and very few clerics carry divine vitality to help casters. Also, mana is a finite resource. I know warforged casters with Torc and buggy concordant opposition items are powerful, but we're talking about drows here. Talking about inspired quarters with ghostly mobs. People with VOD Tharne's set or spectral gloves can hit them just fine. As for +2 DEX, it is not as good as +2 STR or +2 CON.

[Longshot7]

/sarcasm on
Here's a suggestion for Turbine to ponder.

At 1750 favor. Remove the auto +2 to Int and Cha and have the player freely distribute those 4 points.
Still keep the +2 to Dex and -2 to Con... it would set it up exactly like an Elf.

Now throw in a Dragon Mark of Shadow or whatever the Drow one should be.


There's your 32pt Drow.


/sarcasm off

Why is it difficult for people to comprehend. Drow is a stepping stone to a freely distributed 32pt build. Does it all mesh out in the end.. Yes.. Does it mean Drow can play any class? Sure. Will they be the best? Nope. But one race is not going to be best in all classes. You don't see many Dwarven Sorcs running around, do you?

Sheesh, if I see one more "Make Drow 32pts" posting I'm going to start blasting "Make WF 32pts" because yeah.. they have 2 neg modifiers when others have only one for one.. And Drow have 1 Neg and 3 pos.

[Calebro]

3) Low caster power in late games. A +2 INT, +2 CHA, +2 DEX advantages diminished to almost nothing at level 20 since drow casters doesn't really have a lot of power at level 20 places like Shavarath. Even epics favored melees with the right combination of weapons, destruction, improved destruction.

These are developmental issues with the quests, not with drow as a race. Don't confuse the two.

Adding more power to things that shouldn't have had more power added to them is what got us into this mess.
It's not a solution to the problem if it will compound the problem.

[Cyr]

so your point is that because +3 tomes exist drow have no purpose anymore

how many +3 tomes to your chars have?
and how many of those are a specificy stat
and most important: how long did it take you to get them?

I've got lots of them. A races main advantage should not be that it is easier to build a certain niche build without getting the gear. Drow are a little underpowered atm. I don't agree with the OP's approach though.

[Ystradmynach]

I really like the drow as a race and am playing a drow rogue/paladin, but I am strongly opposed to making drow a 32 point race.

I think drow do need some love, but I want stuff that will enhance the flavor the race already has, instead of making drow a generic uber race.

Here is what I think the developers need to make the drow a great race without being overpowered.

1) Fix Spell resistance to either scale with level or at least change the enhancements so that the total SR a drow can get is above 20.

2) Introduce the scorpion wraith PRE, it sounds like it has the potential to add some very interesting abilities to drow of all classes willing to take the required feats

3) Fix shurikens. Seriously, even among thrown weapons, shurikens suck. I doubt even a drow monk would bother to use them. Hell, even my drow paladin uses a thrown axe instead. You should be able to throw three of them at once, which I believe is how it works in tabletop d&d.

4) I really like the Vulkoor drow scorpion summons for my drow paladin. But like SR, I don't believe my minion scales with level. While I may be wrong since my character is only level 10, I suspect that the scorpion will die too easily at high levels because of that. There should be ways to improve the quality of summoned creatures in the game. And this doesn't just apply to drow divine casters, all summoners could probably use a boost in that regard. BTW, I am happy that summons actually stay around now instead of quickly disappearing like they use to do, it is a step in the right direction.

[Newtons_Apple]

its about time someone does something about drow
for everything besides caster they stink
i mean of course a good player might make them shine but same player same class different race will probably be better off being just that more effective

Drows in PnP have a Bonus in Cha and Int, also the same racial bonus for dex and penalty in con. They also have other goodies best of which is SR at level 1 they receive 11 +1 for every level they receive there after. Not to mention SR is very different in pnp because it blocks almost every or every spell type damage spells evadable or direct. Which should show that they do have a substantial weakness in ddo, coupled with the fact that you cannot make a 32 point drow which makes elves superior to drow on basicly every other class besides arcane spell caster.

Id just like to see something done with them, without making it better via enhancements. a 32 point drow makes sense. As well it makes sense to me since you they were unlocked with favor, and 32 point was unlocked with favor. That 32 point drows should be indeed put up to 32 and have a fair chance to shine as a different class besides trap monkey, or arcane

Right now there is no reason to play one other then for RP purposes. you get funny looks if you play a full bab drow and that needs to change.

a double tr 1.9 + 3.2 + 4.4 = 9.5 million xp for a 32 point drow? thats a little insane dont you think, and it still does not change the fact that a 36 point elf would be superior in most cases.

It seems a bit insane to me to ask for a meh bonus to a meh race for 3k favor.

I don't know what would be good for 3k, but it isn't the above.

[Thriand]

I don't expect drow to be the best at everything, but it would be nice if an unlockable race wasn't near obsolete. Drow can make acceptable toons at any type but I feel they can be outshined in almost every case by a 32 pt build (obviously there are a few exceptions)

I like the idea that a drow can be a stepping stone to 32 pt builds but I don't like the idea that a special "unlockable race" would fall behind the 32 point builds.

I think at a bare minimum drow should be given their proper SR without the need of enhancements, however I would much prefer that their enhancements get a boost and they remain 28 pt builds.

If you look at all the other racial enhancements they far surpass those of the drow elves. The only enhancement that drow really get that is worthwhile is the rapier/shortsword enhancement which can easily be replaced by just going a pure elf and taking the rapier/longsword enhancements. Their drow ranged enhancements are useless compared to the elfs (and they also don't get AA enhancements or elven arcanum) and the SR enhancements can be easily replaced by a cleric casting a spell or even wearing an SR item. And to top that all off 3 of the 4 most recommended classes I see for proponents of drow (TWF STR based divine might paladin, rogue, wizard, and sorc) don't get much use out of the racial dex enhancements.

Personally I'd like for them to either make it so that drow SR enhancements stack with other forms of SR or give us our natural 11 + character level (like monks), and I'd also like to see their racial stat enhancements changed so that they can choose to put their 2 stat enhancements into either dex, cha, or int but once one was taken it locks out the others (similar to human adaptability 1 works).

[Emili]

I understand the delema ... however 32 point and drow are at one equal on apsects - they currently total 80 points... fact be a 32 point drow in essence would be on equal ground to an double TR'd toon of any other race in some cases.

Drow do need some boost however ... and that boost should most likely be in the form of enhancement overhaul.

I have but two drow left on my account... one a Pally and the other a cleric (I had up to seven drow at one time)... these were rolled first day drow were introduced and by far - at first overpowered - back when one refered to DDO and Drow and Dwarf Online... The advent of 32 point builds (1750) favor started brining the viability of other races back into the game ... the change to enhancements and playability within the game emphasising HP over AC along with dispersement of wider gaps of Max/Min is what places drow behind the curve.

[clanqui]

Any build, no matter how good, is going to have spots where they shine and spots where they are not as well off. Which is really handy for some folks, because it means no matter what happens, they will always have something to complain about.

[Vilhelm_der_Toller]

I like Drow for roleplay purposes, but at present I can't think of a single class or character a Drow is "better" at.

Dang. I thought DDO WAS a role playing game rather than an exercise in min/maxing.

I'd better re-roll. So I can re-role.

[Angar]

Human:
8 str
8 dex
8 con
8 int
8 wis
8 cha
+32 pts
Total: 80 pts

Drow:
8 str
10 dex
6 con
10 int
8 wis
10 cha
+28 pts
Total: 80 pts

Whats the problem?

If you don't want to use a race with the capability of doing 20 dex, cha, or int, then don't use a drow.

Pure finesse assassin rogue needs dex for skills and to-hit, int for assassinate DC and skill points, cha for UMD. still plenty of room for 14 con, which is all most rogue builds need.

18 wiz/2 rog, dex for rogue stuff; can max int for spell points, rogue skills, and DC; cha for UMD.

Sorc - 20 cha for max DC on spells and max SP. Max cha and some int means UMD can be very high, enough so that no-fail heal scrolls are simple to acheive, making a more effective caster than a WF with self heal ability.

No need to make drow any different than they are.. already equivalent of 32 pt build, racial skills that work with compatible classes, and easy to get for new players.

[Visty]

Human:
8 str
8 dex
8 con
8 int
8 wis
8 cha
+32 pts
Total: 80 pts

Drow:
8 str
10 dex
6 con
10 int
8 wis
10 cha
+28 pts
Total: 80 pts

Whats the problem?

warforged:
8 str
8 dex
10 con
8 int
6 wis
6 cha
+32 pts
Total: 78 pts

and yet noone complains about that, strange, eh

[Angar]

warforged:
8 str
8 dex
10 con
8 int
6 wis
6 cha
+32 pts
Total: 78 pts

and yet noone complains about that, strange, eh

lol, I was gonna post that one but I thought it might confuse those who are still having a hard time wrapping their head around the drow being an 80 pt build like most other races..

[Thriand]

Human:
8 str
8 dex
8 con
8 int
8 wis
8 cha
+32 pts
Total: 80 pts

Drow:
8 str
10 dex
6 con
10 int
8 wis
10 cha
+28 pts
Total: 80 pts

Whats the problem?

Theres way more to it than adding up stats and saying "look their equal." While I don't necessarily think that drow should be given more build points I do believe that the loss of versatility in stat distribution and their general lack of impressive enhancements causes them fall a little bit behind the other races. If it were as simple as adding up build points then no one would play those gimp 26/30 pt warforged, but instead if anything the immunties, high hp, and WF power attack enhancements lead the race to being a tad bit overpowered.