RE: Patch 1 combat improvements

[kaelis]

Not liking the slowed animations, puts a sour taste in my mouth watching my toons look like their permanently underwater by attack speed, even while hasted.

[Borror0]

Dude read the whole post first, and have you been in game and have a TWF toon?

Both done. I even played around with my TWF bard and my TWF spec'd fighter.

You seem uneducated about the history of the change, the motivations behind it and even how it works.

While I could explain you that it is me who came up with the idea, that if there is any change for TWF it is a positive one or that the intent was not to nerf TWF but rather to get it of twitching and improve the experience at low levels but, had you bothered reading the whole thread, you would know about those so you're clearly uninterested in learning about the topic and explaining to you would probably end up being a waste of time.

[gfunk]

Last night I had been solo'ing the battlefield with my TWF'ers for slayers. Tried it again this morning... and though it *looks* slower... the killing of trash and the few bosses I found this morning seemed *faster*.

GTWF Tempest Monk
GTWF Kensai clicky, Haste Boost clicky Fighter

Makes sense: we used to get 5 animations and 10 gtwf (or 11 temp III) attacks but now we get 4 animations and either 9 gtwf (or 10 temp III) attacks, so the number of attacks per animation have increased.

Its kinda weird to look at in your combat log, as you are gettting way more attacks then it looks like you should be getting. But, it seems that the animations have even less relation to the number of attacks than they used to have. I think this will be confusing to new players who mostly watch what their character is doing, and don't notice the combat log as much.

[Ganidel]

Both done. I even played around with my TWF bard and my TWF spec'd fighter.

You seem both uneducated about the history of the change, the motivations behind it and even how it works.

A TWF bard or fighter isnt a true TWF, you know full well the type of toons im talkin about.

[Gratch]

good to know...so the animation is slower but # attacks same? This really screwed with the feeling of the game IMO

There's definitely a slower feeling... but the damage scrawl stays big for TWF. My S&B cleric feels too slow though. They're gonna need to put a bigger bonus on shields if they're keeping it this way.

I wonder if this will help with TWF DPS FX animation lag... or if they also fixed that TWF FX client bug that Phax tracked down during Beta.

[stazer]

I like how you thoroughly played it and crunched the numbers before making that claim. I also like the level of civility present in your post.

If only all players were so thoughtful and civil when posting!!

this got you that response...check yours first. I don't know you or him from Adam but it seems frustration is the impetus behind expression right now.

on that note: The melee change sucks.

Sucks as in the feel of the game changed dramatically for melee. Maybe it will get better and feel normal...maybe the devs will go "o ****..." but...right now it sucks.

[smatt]

Makes sense: we used to get 5 animations and 10 gtwf (or 11 temp III) attacks but now we get 4 animations and either 9 gtwf (or 10 temp III) attacks, so the number of attacks per animation have increased.

Its kinda weird to look at in your combat log, as you are gettting way more attacks then it looks like you should be getting. But, it seems that the animations have even less relation to the number of attacks than they used to have. I think this will be confusing to new players who mostly watch what their character is doing, and don't notice the combat log as much.

The animations are a great part of the game no doubt... BUT... Tying the amount of actual attacks to the animations we see, is one of the drawbacks and problem causing over-complications in DDO..... IMO

[Borror0]

Sucks as in the feel of the game changed dramatically for melee. Maybe it will get better and feel normal...maybe the devs will go "o ****..." but...right now it sucks.

That's fine if you don't like it but saying why would greatly help developers in improving it.

Its kinda weird to look at in your combat log, as you are gettting way more attacks then it looks like you should be getting. But, it seems that the animations have even less relation to the number of attacks than they used to have. I think this will be confusing to new players who mostly watch what their character is doing, and don't notice the combat log as much.

/agree

[Gratch]

Hey borror0, just because you have alot of rep and you run wiki doesnt make you all knowing, plus you steal alot of the work you put on there.

It's kind of bad taste to trash on a volunteer wiki maintainer and call it stealing. Making info public in a single location is good for us all.

Feel free to trash on borror0 for his opinions or correct his wiki info... but bad show for trashing on wiki info centralization as stealing.

*FARTS at Ganidel's general direction*

[stazer]

That's fine if you don't like it but saying why would greatly help developers in improving it.

good point.

Again this may change over time but right now it clearly feels like your swing at 1/2 speed. Not just losing an attack but at 1/2 speed. The attack sequence feels dramatically slower! I think you stated that you tried it...Im not asking this to be argumentative (or like Kanye West a rude stupid prick), I am genuinely curious...but did you feel a difference?

Personally I am more of a feel guy then numbers guy (though I am not naive I have been playing ALONG TIME and recognize the numbers truely drive the feel)...but in this case the drastic feel change outway's any number gains...fyi I am very much into twitch games and enjoy the FPS aspects of DDO...so this may be just me.

[kingfisher]

Its kinda weird to look at in your combat log, as you are gettting way more attacks then it looks like you should be getting. But, it seems that the animations have even less relation to the number of attacks than they used to have. I think this will be confusing to new players who mostly watch what their character is doing, and don't notice the combat log as much.

the attacks and damage are still there as long as you stand still, but circling and side stepping seem to cost you quite a few attacks as far as i can tell

[stazer]

*FARTS at Ganidel's general direction*

did you seriously just emote farting...at...someone?

Whats next *Golden showers your leg*

[Dirac]

Well, I'm a numbers guy and don't care much about feel. We'll get used to it, eventually.

Borror0, I apologize for being confusing about what I was confused about before. I'm fairly confident I know what Eladrin was saying, but I'm wondering if he's wrong.

Regardless, I have a very simple question:

Is it true that with this change, every character (levels 17-20) now has a fewer number of attacks per minute?

[Healemup]

Right. Missed that. Thanks!

Doesn't seem to be a very drastic difference.

Although I have to wonder about the pure rogue DPS builds now...since they wind up with a lower BAB it seems they will attack ~4% slower now.

Divine Power clickies FTW! Pain, but it does increase their BAB.

[Borror0]

Again this may change over time but right now it clearly feels like your swing at 1/2 speed. Not just losing an attack but at 1/2 speed. The attack sequence feels dramatically slower! I think you stated that you tried it...Im not asking this to be argumentative (or like Kanye West a rude stupid prick), I am genuinely curious...but did you feel a difference?

Unhasted, it was atrocious. Once hasted, it felt fine. It barely saw the difference once hasted and the combat looked less silly without the last swing.

Personally I am more of a feel guy then numbers guy

So am I. Actually, that was why I proposed the change: low level combat looked ridiculous.

[Laith]

Divine Power clickies FTW! Pain, but it does increase their BAB.

madstone rage also grants full BAB... with the cost of using clickies/scrolls/some pots.

[Junts]

Unhasted, it was atrocious. Once hasted, it felt fine. It barely saw the difference once hasted and the combat looked less silly without the last swing.

So am I. Actually, that was why I proposed the change: low level combat looked ridiculous.

its most noticable on people who have other attack bonuses; I really notice the difference hasted/zealing, which used to be unrealistically fast.

[Baahb3]

So basically, TWF got 'normalized', THF got a boost, S&B got the shaft and any BA +3 character gets the same number of 'basic' swings as a BA +20 character...does that about cover it?


Since this is YOUR idea Borror0 as you have so often pointed out, I should direct all my skepticism/criticism towards you?

[The_Phenx]

As long as the attacks are still there... thats my main concern.

[Arkat]

Personally, I think it would have been better to speed up the animations to correspond with the actual number of attacks rather than to reduce the animations and put in an extra hook or two.

I realize that could've possibly meant more animations so perhaps dropping a few frames from each one might have helped. Sure the animations may not have looked as "smooth" as they do now but I think many of us could've handled that.