Self-resurection for $0.90

[Borror0]

The "items" sold make this a NEW DDO, that is unarguable. Weather you are for or against the store... the store makes DDO a new game.

And in the history of RPGs, that's a very very bad situation.

Exactly, and what's sad about this is that it does not have to be.

Kate and Fernando repeated hundreds of time D&D was a typical example of microtransaction and that DDO was built perfectly for RMT. By being so instanced, Turbine can sell access to dungeons quite easily and thus offer a more flexible model for those who don't play enough to warrant the $15/month. This, alone, should increase the revenues for Turbine.

That's a minor change for the players. It has almost no effect on gameplay and no one in their right mind would oppose.

Our problem is with those items that they want to sell in the eStore. While I see the attractiveness of doing so, it's a big change on gameplay no matter how you look at it. The high accessibility of powerful consumables had already a questionable effect on gameplay.

It certainly represents a huge change. A new DDO, as you call it and we all know that has never led to a brilliant success for any MMO.

I am hopeful, generally speaking, for the future of DDO but that is one thing they have to reconsider.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Exactly, and what's sad about this is that it does not have to be.

Kate and Fernando repeated hundreds of time D&D was a typical example of microtransaction and that DDO was built perfectly for RMT. By being so instanced, Turbine can sell access to dungeons quite easily and thus offer a more flexible model for those who don't play enough to warrant the $15/month. This, alone, should increase the revenues for Turbine.

That's a minor change for the players. It has almost no effect on gameplay and no one in their right mind would oppose.

Our problem is with those items that they want to sell in the eStore. While I see the attractiveness of doing so, it's a big change on gameplay no matter how you look at it. The high accessibility of powerful consumables had already a questionable effect on gameplay.

It certainly represents a huge change. A new DDO, as you call it and we all know that has never led to a brilliant success for any MMO.

I am hopeful, generally speaking, for the future of DDO but that is one thing they have to reconsider.

Borro0 you dont need me telling you we have disagreed on much, but on this one topic you are spot on. I cant find a negative to nail you on here because there is none.

Turbine, you have failed the veteran playerbase with "Mod 9". The "rollout" for mod 9 is how many months now?

There is no way this store, in its current state, should remain. Ditch the entire store... and the concept behind it.. or just sell tangeable merchandide in it. I think you would sell more merch than you think.

The concepts of buying your way through and out of quests IS GAME BREAKING. It is NOT D&D in any way imagineable.

[Quanefel]

snip

Agreed. Consider this though. It has always been on my mind since day one of all of this is that if this new DDO2 fails...we have no DDO1 to fall back on. If it fails, it's over. No fallback plan here.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Agreed. Consider this though. It has always been on my mind since day one of all of this is that if this new DDO2 fails...we have no DDO1 to fall back on. If it fails, it's over. No fallback plan here.

Quan, it already is over. We have what, 15% left of us that started in beta/headstart?

Think about it.

WHERE is this MASSIVE ADVERTISING BLITZ that was promised?

[Kylani]

Your last post was unreadable. your thoughts all over the map.

The one point you DID make that was valid is this one. Asherons Call 2 is Turbine's biggest black eye to date.

However the unlimited wait of this most recent MOD, along with the across the board changes is very bad for Turbine. They keep punching themselves in the eyes. I dont think the changes, as good as many of them are (lots of small changes many will like) will be nearly enough for the veteran playerbase. The store is NOT positive in its current state.

The "items" sold make this a NEW DDO, that is unarguable. Weather you are for or against the store... the store makes DDO a new game.

And in the history of RPGs, that's a very very bad situation.

The difference is, in Asheron's Call 2, the fans had the option of still playing Asheron's Call. People not wanting to change period, as has been highly evidenced here, would be a stumbling block to begin with. At least DDO won't have that hurdle.

The store will change the game, but comments/fear that all new players will be unskilled people who don't care about playing the game but just want to spend all their money to buy a 'sword of all truths' to win the game and thus be more uber than all the veteran DDO players is overkill.

For whatever reasons, Turbine has decided to go this way, and if people want DDO to keep going in some form, they need to stop fearing what 'might' happen and start suggesting logical compromise.

If self-resurrection cakes seem too cheap, that can be a legitimate issue, but saying get rid of the store altogether isn't a solution.

What exactly is different about using a rez cake than leaving a dungeon and running back? Is it purely convenience of not having to run to an Inn, refill hp and mp, and get back to where you were? I haven't used a rez cake. Do you get full hp and mp back when you use a rez cake like you do with running back (this is a rhetorical question, please don't answer since this is a non-beta board).

I haven't ever run into a dungeon where I couldn't leave and go back to rez others. Are there dungeons where you can't leave and get back to the party, so rez cakes change those dungeons?

Is it because you don't suffer the same penalty for leaving when you use a rez cake? If so, would attaching the same penalty for using a rez cake make it a 'good' item for the store.

[Quanefel]

Quan, it already is over. We have what, 15% left of us that started in beta/headstart?

Think about it.

WHERE is this MASSIVE ADVERTISING BLITZ that was promised?

As long as we still have some fight left in us, it aint over yet.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

they need to stop fearing what 'might' happen and start suggesting logical compromise.

Logical comprimise: start selling tangible merchandise in the store, or eliminating the in game sore entirely. selling quest completions is not D&D.

If self-resurrection cakes seem too cheap, that can be a legitimate issue, but saying get rid of the store altogether isn't a solution.

Why is getting rid of TurbineBay.com .. err... I mean the e-store... not a solution. This IS game altering and in my sole opinion horrible for this game.

would attaching the same penalty for using a rez cake make it a 'good' item for the store.

No.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

As long as we still have some fight left in us, it aint over yet.

True dat. Still got fight. But I'm rather bored. And those of us that have PLAYED GAMES that have failed are telling those who havent... we see this coming... and we have for some time.

But, I see DDO as fixable. Like Borro0 said... is sad.

[Kylani]

Logical comprimise: start selling tangible merchandise in the store, or eliminating the in game sore entirely. selling quest completions is not D&D.



Why is getting rid of TurbineBay.com .. err... I mean the e-store... not a solution. This IS game altering and in my sole opinion horrible for this game.




No.

Why is a rez cake selling completions? You don't answer questions, you just say that it is so. Why is it so? Can you not leave a dungeon now, and come back and complete?

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Why is a rez cake selling completions?

Stop.

If you can BUY an item to allow a COMPLETION, then Turbine is SELLING completions.

There are MANY situations that currently it is impossible or undesirable to res back at a bar in the middle of a quest/raid.

The mere concept of BUYING quest completions is disgusting. Many ARE and will continue to feel this is game breaking... and has nothing to do with D&D.

[Girevik]

Will the items sold in the store make finishing some missions easier? Yes, undoubtedly.

But, I can guarantee you, they will not be the biggest "easy button" in the game. The biggest "easy button" is one that many of the so called "purists" push repeatedly. That is entering a quest where one of the players in the party has done the quest before.

If I only play quests "in the dark", but you mostly play the SAME QUESTS night after night, do you really think the game will be "too easy" if I can buy a mana potion?

[Kylani]

Stop.

If you can BUY an item to allow a COMPLETION, then Turbine is SELLING completions.

There are MANY situations that currently it is impossible or undesirable to res back at a bar in the middle of a quest/raid.

The mere concept of BUYING quest completions is disgusting. Many ARE and will continue to feel this is game breaking... and has nothing to do with D&D.

Stop what? Asking for information and constructive comments? You may be used to stomping your foot and throwing a tantrum to get what you want, but I doubt your acting like a two year old is going to make Turbine say, 'Gee, he's mad. We made a mistake and will go back to a model that isn't working for us'.

They made the decision for a reason. If it doesn't work, the game may go under, but they obviously felt like a change was needed. They could just as easily have cut their losses and spent the money elsewhere vs trying to revitalize DDO.

If you don't want to even consider a store, fine. I feel for your loss, but for those who enjoy DDO and would like to see it work, we should be able to discuss it constructively so that legitimate issues might be addressed.

I doubt you really want to discuss any issue, but if there are places that are impossible to get back to by design, perhaps they could make rez cakes unusable in these places/situations. They've already said the store won't be available in raids.

[Borror0]

They made the decision for a reason. If it doesn't work, the game may go under, but they obviously felt like a change was needed.

The freemium model is already a change.

I doubt you really want to discuss any issue, but if there are places that are impossible to get back to by design, perhaps they could make rez cakes unusable in these places/situations. They've already said the store won't be available in raids.

This assumes that wiping and re-entering is good. I disagree.

[Kylani]

The freemium model is already a change.

This assumes that wiping and re-entering is good. I disagree.

It has NOTHING to do with the store about whether it's good or not. People do it NOW, people have done it for years.

You have an agenda that is more to changing the game as it exists now vs trying to discuss the store. I'm not going to waste time debating with you, when your arguments are always that everything is wrong now. I honestly don't know why you even play the game if you hate so much about it.

[Dark_Helmet]

Your last post was unreadable. your thoughts all over the map.

Sorry, I had it all typed out and the post got eaten - twice. I was responding to someone who doesn't know that past history can certainly make some outcomes more likely. I tried to emphasize it was my opinion, but that was lost on them.

My point:
Some of the same people who made the AC2 fiasco are doing the DDO "make-over".
Since they are introducing changes too far down the development cycle before asking opinion/feedback , I think it is a failure in their development cycle that will make DDO2 less successful.


I have made my constructive criticism posts before:
1) Any store should just sell cosmetic changes (nothing to be used to give one person an advantage over another) and content for the F2P members who don't have access.

2) Quit going further away from 3.5 rules. The argument for one rule change is that it is required based on feedback, when we can plainly see it really acts as a "nerf" for higher level characters (whether by design or not). If it was a 3.5 rule, I wouldn't have such a big problem with it, but there are a lot more ways to improve the game within the 3.5 ruleset. Also, by making changes to look more and more like other MMOs will reduce the uniqueness of this 3.5 world. If I wanted it to look like XXX MMO, I would play that MMO.

3) Quit talking out of both sides of their mouth:
A) They say this is 3.5 and they are not going to 4.0.
B) A dev posted that the above change is more like the way D&D is going (4.0).

4) Concentrate on more content itself and less re-working rules. I know a lot of people who left purely based on the lack of content. I can not recall, in 3 years, someone leaving because "It is too hard to hit things" (just the usualy doom threads about individually hard monsters). Really, that type of player who needs immediate feedback of damage at each swing is going to play an XBox game and not shell out the money.


Finally, I was going to use this weekend to conduct my own poll of D&D players about the penetration of DDO into the faithful at a convention but other duties prevent me . Therefore, I am grumpy (yeah what else is new?)

[Dark_Helmet]

Why is a rez cake selling completions? You don't answer questions, you just say that it is so. Why is it so? Can you not leave a dungeon now, and come back and complete?

Not all dungeons can be re-entered in the place you can use those cakes (behind closed gates, blue barriers).

For all quests, by rezzing out and running back you have both an XP penalty as well as a time sink as your "punishment". This is the easy button as you can immediately rez (and re-supply if needed).
It kind of goes back to the arguement where people don't want to swing at monsters for so long. If I am ultra powerful, why not just skip straight to the chest?


Having the chance of failure is what provides some excitement into the game for a lot of players. The "easy button" reduces this "thrill". If you think a change that people can "ignore" and play their own way doesn't affect the game then why do they make changes such as nerfing wounding of puncturing? It is a change that really only affects those who have the items and people can just group with others who don't have them. Because in a game where you can group with anyone, any changes affect everyone.

The question is how big of an impact is that particular change?

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

If you don't want to even consider a store, fine. I feel for your loss, but for those who enjoy DDO and would like to see it work, we should be able to discuss it constructively....

I doubt you really want to discuss any issue,

So you want to discuss... OK. Here are some problems with the store. Its important to remember most people leave games like DDO because of drastic changes to gameplay and concept behind those changes. People start leaving at the CONCEPT OF CHANGE... just like many DDO veterans have already left... Here are some easy to think of concepts:

1. UNLIMITED ZERGING and POOR PLAY. Why even worry about staying with your party or a cleric if you can BUY YOURSELF "free lives". You are on the other end of the dungeon, no worries, call 1-800-ZergAlot. For the rich, I equate this with Economic God Mode. This is a ridiculous concept.. but you watch people abuse it this way.

2. Game loses its challenge. Soloing loses its challenge. If everyone can raise themselves, losing a quest equates to "How much we can AFFORD to keep the quest alive."

(Geese next time I DM a campaign Im going to ask everyone to bring their credit card.)

3. Clerics might as well start charging for raise dead/res scrolls and other healing. Why does Turbine get to make money on healing but not us? Buying Turbine Free Lives cheapen the whole healing/raise methods in DDO and alters the way we've healed in D&D for years.

Dont think Im going to let you get away with your "concept" Are you seriously tying the Turbine e-store to the survivability of DDO? As in if theres no store, theres no more DDO??

Of course most of us want to see DDO succeed. But the CREATION of a DDO e-store will not allow DDO to survive ONE EXTRA DAY.

[Vallin]

Quan, it already is over. We have what, 15% left of us that started in beta/headstart?

Think about it.

WHERE is this MASSIVE ADVERTISING BLITZ that was promised?

Oh its already over?! I am so glad that you told me. I wouldn't have noticed otherwise. Every time that I log in there is a game there, but now I know I have been hallucinating. But wait - if it is already over, why are you posting on the forums of a game that doesn't exist?? I am so confused!

And here are more statistics for us. I wonder where these came from?

What a funny thread!

Vallin

[bandyman1]

Oh its already over?! I am so glad that you told me. I wouldn't have noticed otherwise. Every time that I log in there is a game there, but now I know I have been hallucinating. But wait - if it is already over, why are you posting on the forums of a game that doesn't exist?? I am so confused!

And here are more statistics for us. I wonder where these came from?

What a funny thread!

Vallin

Yeah!!! You tell him Vallin!!!

How dare anyone even suggest that pop is declining!!! The entire 90,000+ subs that the game started with are all still here playing the game!!!! There was never a reason to decrease the amount of servers, because everyone is still here playing, it's just that Turbine thought that the lag would add challenge!!!! Hell; We get 9000 new subs every day!!! DDO is the most successful game ever!!! It makes more revenue than WoW and LotRO combined!!! This has never been a niche game, that is really only played by those who enjoy it's differences. WHY ARE YOU SO NEGATIVE!???!

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

yeah!!! You Tell Him Vallin!!!

How Dare Anyone Even Suggest That Pop Is Declining!!! The Entire 90,000+ Subs That The Game Started With Are All Still Here Playing The Game!!!! There Was Never A Reason To Decrease The Amount Of Servers, Because Everyone Is Still Here Playing, It's Just That Turbine Thought That The Lag Would Add Challenge!!!! Hell; We Get 9000 New Subs Every Day!!! Ddo Is The Most Successful Game Ever!!! It Makes More Revenue Than Wow And Lotro Combined!!! This Has Never Been A Niche Game, That Is Really Only Played By Those Who Enjoy It's Differences. Why Are You So Negative!???!

Rotflmao!