The anti-respec thread.

[Drinkin]

Sooooo many respec threads out there... I understand you don't want to loser you gear I understand you don't want to relevel your toons. I am sorry that you don't like the fact that there is no respec but you say that you want a respec because turbine continues to change the rules. To add a respec option is basically another rule change. Can I cry untill I get all my +2 and +3 tomes back that I've deleted? Can I cry untill I get my bound gear and raid loot back? I could say hey you didnt' have a respec option when I deleted that's not fair to me. Of course on the side of selfishness I'd be right but then I'd just be a cry baby. I reroll toons because they're not quite how I want them but sure I'd love to have the bound gear and tomes back. You say people will quit playing because their toons are not nerfed but people may quit because the game is no longer fun because all the toons out there are too powerful quests too easy. People speak of balance then people speak of respec. To not have a respec option actually balances things between the power gamers and the newbies. I think the people that the respec option would help most are people returning to the game and people that play casually. But it would hurt the new people. The biggest problem with this game is the selfish people that tend to play it. Most of the people have the "I don't care what's good for the game I just want what I want" attitude and it stinks. I really do see your side of things but do you bother to look at the other side of the arguement?

It will make it harder for new players to catch up.
a. it cost money to relevel a toon.
b. people will not have to raid as often because they already have all the gear

It will make it too easy to build the new flavor of the month build.
I think this one is pretty self explanatory to argue is just silly.

It will annoy all the players that already deleted thier toons to reroll.
I know this is a matter of opinion but it is my opion resistance is futile

It will take away from the number of people playing low level content.
a. less people rerolling and playing low level content
b. No one to show newbs how to run low level content and they will not stay as long.

It will take away from the development of future content.
I've seen people argue this point many times in the past. plain and simple if someone is working on making a respec they are not working on new content.

I'm not really looking to argue here but this is just a little food for thought. These are just a few of the reason I'm against a respec.

[FluffyCalico]

I can think of several who are going to burst a bloodvessel when they see this.

However you missed them by like 2 hrs so they will not see this until later.

[Drinkin]

LOL Yes I imagine they will. I don't burst a vessel when they voice their opinion that differs from mine though.

[Kintro]

It will take away from the number of people playing low level content.
a. less people rerolling and playing low level content
b. No one to show newbs how to run low level content and they will not stay as long.

I assumed any kind of respec would involve resetting your character to level 0 and allowing you to proceed from there. This might actually increase the amount of low level quests being played as people who wouldn't normally reroll may choose to respec.

[FluffyCalico]

LOL Yes I imagine they will. I don't burst a vessel when they voice their opinion that differs from mine though.

Forgot to add your idea of FUN is wrong only my idea of fun matters unless you prove otherwise

Since the Devs in no way are planning a massive respec I think it best to let it die.

[Quanefel]

Interesting post.

Might add something about gear in this whole full respec issue?

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174321

Now with that, it makes it clear that in Mod9 will start seeing "bound to account" items. This kind of waters down the whole issue some people have with loosing their bound loot in rerolling, that is too much to bare loosing. Which is fine, I can understand that.

Yet, in rerolling or respeccing the more new mods are put out our gear we have now becomes obsolete. The further levels we get, the less our "uber" gear becomes. If players are so upset about loosing gear in rerolling/respeccing, what gear is going to stand the test of time of the future mods that they HAVE to always, forever keep?

If more and better loot is going to be put out with future mods then why does anyone need to keep all the past junk gear that becomes obsolete? It makes no sense. People are that possesive of junk gear that it prevents them from ever rerolling a character. What? In the hopes that they can cling to gear that would better off vendored?

Tomes. Well the fact is we will be getting better unbound tomes in the next mod and probably higher ones later on. If people are afraid of loosing the tomes they have now that will be made useless by the newer tomes we are on the verge of getting, why cling to them when they do you no good the moment we get +3, +4 or +5's? Those and the loot becomes a moot point then.

There will be very little for any of us to actually want to cling to for dear life if they decided to just reroll. Once we have gear that is bound to our accounts and more in the future we can let the old junk gear slip from our fingers and vendor that junk like it needs to be.

[Borror0]

[...] you say that you want a respec because turbine continues to change the rules. To add a respec option is basically another rule change.

First of all, it does not qualify as a 'rule change'. At least, certainly not by using the same denition that is used in those arguments.

Secondly, even if it was, it is a rule change to make rule changes less painful.

[...] but people may quit because the game is no longer fun because all the toons out there are too powerful quests too easy.

If that ever was to happen, then they could simply make quests harder.

Most of the people have the "I don't care what's good for the game I just want what I want" attitude and it stinks.

Thankfully, the pro-respec arguments do care about what is good for the game.

It will make it harder for new players to catch up.
a. it cost money to relevel a toon.
b. people will not have to raid as often because they already have all the gear

a) Respec could include a money cost, as a money-sink.
a) Many respec suggestions involve an XP cost, if that was to become an issue.
b) Other than rerolls, there also new characters that can be created.

It will make it too easy to build the new flavor of the month build.
I think this one is pretty self explanatory to argue is just silly.

How is that a problem?

It will annoy all the players that already deleted thier toons to reroll.
I know this is a matter of opinion but it is my opion resistance is futile

Maybe, but at least they won't be upset next time they will feel they have to reroll a character.

It's a necessary evil for a greater good. I doubt anyone would leave for that reason.

It will take away from the number of people playing low level content.
a. less people rerolling and playing low level content
b. No one to show newbs how to run low level content and they will not stay as long.

a) One could actually argue that veteran players running the content lightning fast is not the kind of experience new players desire.
a) There are several means to address this issue (a bit in the way of the examplar mechanics in CoH), separately, and it should be done with or without respec. It would greatly improve the gameplay experience of everyone in a grouping system.
a) Many respec suggestions involve an XP cost, if that was to become an issue.

b) If new players needs to be shown how to play, we have a more important problem than the quantity of low level characters at hand.
b) That's an hyperbolic argument. There will still be old timers at lower levels, rolling new alts.
b) Many respec suggestions involve an XP cost, if that was to become an issue.

It will take away from the development of future content.
I've seen people argue this point many times in the past. plain and simple if someone is working on making a respec they are not working on new content.

True, and it is up to Turbine to decide if the trade is worthwhile.

Though, I think it is worth mentioning that those in charge of quests are not the same who would work respec. Two totally different tasks.

[Borror0]

Once we have gear that is bound to our accounts and more in the future we can let the old junk gear slip from our fingers and vendor that junk like it needs to be.

It's very unlikely that raid loot will be bound to account. It would be a monumental mistake that I doubt Turbine would commit.

[FluffyCalico]

"If that ever was to happen, then they could simply make quests harder."

You asked us to prove it would effect our fun and then you toss out this gem, I mean proof.

[Borror0]

You asked us to prove it would effect our fun and then you toss out this gem, I mean proof.

How does it prove anything?

[Quanefel]

It's very unlikely that raid loot will be bound to account. It would be a monumental mistake that I doubt Turbine would commit.

It might be unlikely but it is still very much possible. It is also a stepping stone for bound to account raid gear, if not in the next mod then maybe future mods. I do not think it would necessarily would be a monumental mistake, that is your opinion. I imagine if you ask other players, they might be very keen on THAT idea.

And it does not change the fact that with this next mod and mods after, our gear we have right now will become more and more useless. There would be no point to click to that gear if it comes down to rerolling any character we have now. And, I think you understand this too.

[Drinkin]

First of all, it does not qualify as a 'rule change'. At least, certainly not by using the same denition that is used in those arguments.

Secondly, even if it was, it is a rule change to make rule changes less painful.

If that ever was to happen, then they could simply make quests harder.

Thankfully, the pro-respec arguments do care about what is good for the game.

a) Respec could include a money cost, as a money-sink.
a) Many respec suggestions involve an XP cost, if that was to become an issue.
b) Other than rerolls, there also new characters that can be created.

How is that a problem?

Maybe, but at least they won't be upset next time they will feel they have to reroll a character.

It's a necessary evil for a greater good. I doubt anyone would leave for that reason.

a) One could actually argue that veteran players running the content lightning fast is not the kind of experience new players desire.
a) There are several means to address this issue (a bit in the way of the examplar mechanics in CoH), separately, and it should be done with or without respec. It would greatly improve the gameplay experience of everyone in a grouping system.
a) Many respec suggestions involve an XP cost, if that was to become an issue.

b) If new players needs to be shown how to play, we have a more important problem than the quantity of low level characters at hand.
b) That's an hyperbolic argument. There will still be old timers at lower levels, rolling new alts.
b) Many respec suggestions involve an XP cost, if that was to become an issue.

True, and it is up to Turbine to decide if the trade is worthwhile.

Though, I think it is worth mentioning that those in charge of quests are not the same who would work respec. Two totally different tasks.

I figured you'd be in here attempting to argue everything I just said. The truth of the matter is neither of us can truely tell what the impact a full respec will have on the game. I was just giving my opinion since there are so many threads out there fighting for the other side. I'm still dead set against a respec option I think that It'll have as many negative effects on the game as it does positive but untill it would happen we'll never know but once it happens it's too late to undo. And most of the people that are argueing for the respec do only care about what they want and not what's best for the game. I personally would love to respec a couple of my toons that have bound WoPs or a lower con than I'd like but I think it would be bad for the game...

[Borror0]

The truth of the matter is neither of us can truely tell what the impact a full respec will have on the game. [...] I personally would love to respec a couple of my toons that have bound WoPs or a lower con than I'd like but I think it would be bad for the game...

I respect that position, even if I disagree with it.

[Mhykke]

Why not:

Sooooo many respec threads out there... I understand you don't want to loser you gear I understand you don't want to relevel your toons..

Well, considering that the option of releveling was brought up by pro respec people, I don't understand where you got "you don't want to relevel your toons". In fact, losing xp/releveling was mentioned in the very 2nd post on the big respec thread, long ago:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=166202

I am sorry that you don't like the fact that there is no respec but you say that you want a respec because turbine continues to change the rules. To add a respec option is basically another rule change. Can I cry untill I get all my +2 and +3 tomes back that I've deleted? Can I cry untill I get my bound gear and raid loot back? I could say hey you didnt' have a respec option when I deleted that's not fair to me. Of course on the side of selfishness I'd be right but then I'd just be a cry baby. .

Well, no, it's not fair to the people that deleted their characters. But is the fact that Turbine made a mistake in not introducing a respec with the game from the very beginning enough of a reason to never introduce a respec? Furthermore, it would also benefit you, even though you deleted old characters to reroll. Why? Because just because you deleted, rerolled, and have new characters now, does not insulate them from any game/rule changes that will come in the future. A respec would at least allow you the security in not having to delete your rerolls.

I reroll toons because they're not quite how I want them but sure I'd love to have the bound gear and tomes back. You say people will quit playing because their toons are not nerfed but people may quit because the game is no longer fun because all the toons out there are too powerful quests too easy.

"You say people will quit playing b/c their toons are not nerfed".....I don't follow. Did you add in a "not" in there?

And I think you're making a leap that adding in a respec means that people automatically make their characters "too powerful". People's definitions, and what they see as powerful, are varied. If your argument was correct, everyone would be rolling the exact same thing when creating new characters in today's game. The truth is, there are going to be a lot of options for "power" for characters. There will not just be one or two options for people to go. People will respec for various reasons.

Furthermore, for the sake of argument, let's assume that people respec in order to make more powerful characters. Might that be better than the alternative, having them disappointed in their characters, stop playing them, and maybe stop playing the game completely?

People speak of balance then people speak of respec. To not have a respec option actually balances things between the power gamers and the newbies..

I'm sorry, I just flat out disagree here. Who makes more mistakes when creating a character? A "powergamer" or a "newbie"? Seems to me the powergamer uses a planner, looks at the forums, discusses builds with others, and limits mistakes. A "newbie" doesn't know much about the game, and puts a character together randomly. Then, sometime down the road, maybe in the mid levels, he starts hearing certain things about builds and such, and regrets some decisions he made on his character. Maybe he doesn't want to reroll, if he's casual, b/c it took him a long time just to level to the mid levels? So now you're stuck with a player that is a bit disappointed in his character. Who knows, maybe he will get past it. Maybe he won't. Would it be so terrible to offer that "newbie" a way to correct his mistakes without starting from scratch? Is that such a terrible thing?

I think the people that the respec option would help most are people returning to the game and people that play casually. But it would hurt the new people..

I can see it helping casuals and people returning. I'm still not following on how it hurts new people.....

The biggest problem with this game is the selfish people that tend to play it. Most of the people have the "I don't care what's good for the game I just want what I want" attitude and it stinks. .

I don't know about that. I haven't encountered too many selfish people in the game. I would say that one of the bigger problems with the game is 6 new quests in over a year.

I really do see your side of things but do you bother to look at the other side of the arguement?.

Sure, and I make certain to respond to the other side, point by point, rather than incorrectly summing up what the opposing side says b/c it is easier for me to argue against that made up argument.

It will make it harder for new players to catch up.
a. it cost money to relevel a toon.
b. people will not have to raid as often because they already have all the gear.

Well, yes, it costs money to relevel a character. But releveling was just 1 cost suggested, in order to compromise with those worried about "respecs on a whim". This is a mechanic argument. If there's a better way to implement a cost, I'd hope people could figure one out. Heck, maybe a variety of costs, and you chose which you prefer.

As for people will not raid as often, well, that's assuming the only reason people go on a raid is for the gear. I know that I also enjoy grouping with people, and I go on raids all the time that has no gear that I need, just to play and have fun.

It will make it too easy to build the new flavor of the month build.
I think this one is pretty self explanatory to argue is just silly.

A timer easily solves this concern, does it not? You make the timer long enough, and a person cannot respec every mod.

And that's even conceding that FOTM characters are a problem. Me, I don't see the threat. FOTM characters are going to be fairly hard to nail down in Mod 9. A lot of people build for DPS. Which character is FOTM for DPS in mod 9? Frenzied bezerker? Ranger? Lvl 20 fighter? TWF'ing paladin? 14 paladin/6 ranger? 19 rogue/1 fighter? 8 fighter/6 ranger/2 barb? There are so many choices, there is no clear "FOTM". And even if there was, so what? What's the effect? That people are enjoying playing a character? Last time I checked, having people enjoy their characters is very good for the game.

It will annoy all the players that already deleted thier toons to reroll.
I know this is a matter of opinion but it is my opion resistance is futile.

I addressed this up above. You're correct that it's unfair to the players that already deleted characters. But just b/c those people deleted characters does not make them immune to future game/rule changes. The people that are "annoyed" by the respec addition could at least take comfort in the fact that they can use the respec, rather than rerolling again, if another change affects them.

It will take away from the number of people playing low level content.
a. less people rerolling and playing low level content
b. No one to show newbs how to run low level content and they will not stay as long..

Again, depends on the respec mechanic. If releveling was part of it, people would be at low levels. You're also assuming that someone that is adversely affected by a rule change would automatically reroll. That's a pretty broad assumption. If they just want to change their characters a little bit, I would think they're more likely to simply live with their character, and be disgruntled, rather than completely rerolling, starting from scratch, and releveling a completely new character.

As for the "no one to show newbs how to run low level content".....come on. Give new people a little credit. They don't need to be shown how to run low level content. Let them explore for themselves. You know, at some point, DDO was new, and nobody was around to show the players at the time the content. And every mod, guess what, nobody is around to show anyone the new content.

It will take away from the development of future content.
I've seen people argue this point many times in the past. plain and simple if someone is working on making a respec they are not working on new content.

Yes, you're correct, the development of a respec will take away from new content, as dev time is a finite resource. But nobody is suggesting that they push mod 9 back and put in a respec before then, or that "no mods be added until a respec is put in". Nobody is suggesting the devs should put 100% of their time into a respec. People are merely asking that maybe the devs could devote 95% of their time to new content, and 5% of their time to a respec, for example, so that eventually, a respec gets to be part of the game.

I'm not really looking to argue here but this is just a little food for thought. These are just a few of the reason I'm against a respec.

Not arguing w/ you either, just responding.

[Drinkin]

I respect that position, even if I disagree with it.

I'm glad you do because I have nothing to lose and everything to gain if they impliment a respec. I only dissagree with it because I truely believe it will have a negative impact on the game.

[Mhykke]

Interesting post.

Might add something about gear in this whole full respec issue?

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174321

Now with that, it makes it clear that in Mod9 will start seeing "bound to account" items. This kind of waters down the whole issue some people have with loosing their bound loot in rerolling, that is too much to bare loosing. Which is fine, I can understand that.

Yet, in rerolling or respeccing the more new mods are put out our gear we have now becomes obsolete. The further levels we get, the less our "uber" gear becomes. If players are so upset about loosing gear in rerolling/respeccing, what gear is going to stand the test of time of the future mods that they HAVE to always, forever keep?

If more and better loot is going to be put out with future mods then why does anyone need to keep all the past junk gear that becomes obsolete? It makes no sense. People are that possesive of junk gear that it prevents them from ever rerolling a character. What? In the hopes that they can cling to gear that would better off vendored?

Tomes. Well the fact is we will be getting better unbound tomes in the next mod and probably higher ones later on. If people are afraid of loosing the tomes they have now that will be made useless by the newer tomes we are on the verge of getting, why cling to them when they do you no good the moment we get +3, +4 or +5's? Those and the loot becomes a moot point then.

There will be very little for any of us to actually want to cling to for dear life if they decided to just reroll. Once we have gear that is bound to our accounts and more in the future we can let the old junk gear slip from our fingers and vendor that junk like it needs to be.

Well, until we know what items will be bound to account, we really can't say it "waters down" any arguments. We don't know what current items will or will not be obsolete. Heck, a belt from when the cap was level 10 is still one of the most wanted pieces of gear in the entire game. We know that no current items will be bound to account. Here's a post by a dev discussing:

Hey guys,

Some items in M9 will be Bound to Account. No existing items will become bound to account. More information regarding bound to account items will be forthcoming in future announcements. These items will only be transferable to your other characters through the shared bank. You can also put any non-bound items in the shared bank.

You cannot place plat in the shared bank, sorry .

The shared bank shows up as an additional tab when you access your normal bank. The UI will look more like the Buy Back tab that shop keepers have than the existing bank, and will have twenty item slots available.

I think that answers most of your questions!

As for thinking that raid gear will be part of the gear that is eventually bound to account, I'd tend to disagree. An argument that anti respeccers have been bringing up is the one that if a respec option were allowed, then people would just roll on any raid loot. Well, what do you think would happen if raid loot becomes bound to account, and not to character?

[FluffyCalico]

[QUOTE=Mhykke;2088070] Heck, a belt from when the cap was level 12 is still one of the most wanted pieces of gear in the entire game. :




[QUOTE]

Too bad its only good for soloing or if your caster doesn't carry the 2nd most wanted buff in the game. 2nd only to haste.

[Mhykke]

[quote=FluffyCalico;2088071][quote=Mhykke;2088070] Heck, a belt from when the cap was level 12 is still one of the most wanted pieces of gear in the entire game. :

Too bad its only good for soloing or if your caster doesn't carry the 2nd most wanted buff in the game. 2nd only to haste.

I don't think you're talking about the belt that I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the belt from the Titan raid, not the gird. I'm also wrong, the cap was 10 when it was released, changed to reflect that.

[FluffyCalico]

[QUOTE=Mhykke;2088072][quote=FluffyCalico;2088071]

Heck, a belt from when the cap was level 12 is still one of the most wanted pieces of gear in the entire game. :






I don't think you're talking about the belt that I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the belt from the Titan raid, not the gird.

LMAO yep wrong one. yes the titan one is good

[Angelus_dead]

I'm talking about the belt from the Titan raid, not the gird.

Planar Gird was mod 1, cap 10.
Belt of Brute Strength was mod 2, cap 10.

However, you were approximately right, because the Titan was buggy and nearly unwinnable until the level cap went to 12.