Congrats on the Abbot win

[Baron]

The moral being it is easy to despise what you can not get.

Save the translation for some. :}

吃不到葡萄说葡萄酸 I meant.

While I am thinking of it if a Dev is lurking, when will we be able to cut and paste other languages into the chat window in game?

[Healemup]

When I was at GenCon this past year I spoke with one of the employees at Turbine (no need to mention the name so that they don't have to be subjected to the wrath of this thread) about the Abbot. I was ranting (well mildly complaining... I did have a drink or two prior to this conversation) about how I couldn't complete my favor whoring and that others had (especially during the first few weeks when elite completions were happening).

The feedback I got was paraphrased like this: **We can't win. People complain that there isn't anything challenging enough in the game that requires a coordinated effort for twelve people working together, but when we give them something that is, they complain that it is too hard.**

My response to this was (well maybe is now, its so hard to remember what I said then):

The Abbot doesn't require the effort of 12 people, it really takes the effort of 3 groups of 2 any of which that can't do the job means the quest fails without any possbility of recovery. The other 6 people serve very little purpose. If they are left behind, as would be the case if you followed the "Don't Die" axiom, they just run around avoiding death. Their efforts don't do anything to help the party complete the quest (aside from a few mob kills) at least as far as I have deciphered. Now, if all three of the areas that the people were teleported to did not instantly result in a raid failure, but rather extended the encounter until another attempt could be made to return and attempt again, people would be inclined to keep expending resources to get them done. Then, instead of randomly having people return to the areas make it so that ones that failed at it previously don't get ot return to it. Then, if everyone has a chance to complete it, but you still can't, then the raid fails.

Basically, I went on to describe how the ones who felt they needed a challenge don't view the Abbot as a success was not due to the difficulty in completing it, but rather, by the only type of methods given (lets call them "less than desirable" to be slightly less derogatory or flamable) to them. In fact, even a highly dedicated group of highly skilled players don't stand a much better chance than a group of PUGs in completing it without said tactics.

I think I ended with a frothing rant (I liked to get worked up about this particular area of this subject) about the favor that others got and I couldn't (wasn't even seeing groups to get in to do the favor if I wanted to at the time).

[Angelus_dead]

The feedback I got was paraphrased like this: **We can't win. People complain that there isn't anything challenging enough in the game that requires a coordinated effort for twelve people working together, but when we give them something that is, they complain that it is too hard.**

Yeah, I know that was part of the reasoning... maybe not why they built the Abbot like they did (which could've been accidental), but why they left it like that.

But as you obviously know, that reasoning doesn't make sense in some very serious ways. That's why I was so curious about their thought process on it. In particular, they seemed to have learned their lesson from the Titan raid, which originally had the same problem, although they fixed it after only 3 months (which at the time seemed like a stupidly long delay, and which cost customers). They'd really seemed to have learned something from that fiasco, but maybe only part of their staff was paying attention, because later when the Abbot had been broken for a while we got this horrible post (turns out that was when it was still only in the initial stage of Seriously Broken, not the later Ludicrously Broken after the counterproductive attempt to fix it).

Overall, it's a really bad sign when designers can't go out in public and report if a feature is working in approximately the way they intended, or even reveal what that intention was.

Basically, I went on to describe how the ones who felt they needed a challenge don't view the Abbot as a success was not due to the difficulty in completing it

Part of the problem is that some small number of people report that they like the Abbot raid:
1. Some are noobs who think they like hard stuff, but haven't even tried Abbot and don't know what they're talking about.
2. Some don't really like it, but they don't want to admit they exploited to win, so they claim it's OK.
3. Some are victims of effort justification, where a difficult task is reported as more enjoyable than it was, because otherwise would mean admitting you've been wasting time.
4. Some are elitist jerks, who like the feeling of being "hackers" exploiting the system.

[Mical]

cheesy tactics aside, and other nonsense that really isn't worth arguing over

it was still fun to be challenged in a raid, and thats why i run it
not for the loot
not for the xp
not for the favor

but for the enjoyment of (partially)being challenged by the abott

so yea thnx to those that ran with me, lots of fun

[Angelus_dead]

My response to this was (well maybe is now, its so hard to remember what I said then):
The Abbot doesn't require the effort of 12 people, it really takes the effort of 3 groups of 2 any of which that can't do the job means the quest fails without any possbility of recovery. The other 6 people serve very little purpose.

If we pretend the Abbot challenges weren't broken, meaning that a good player with a lot of practice could beat any of them over 95% of the time, then the goal of requiring 12 good people would actually have approximately been achieved. (We also must pretend there wasn't a workaround of allowing yourself to die if you don't want to be teleported)

You see, in that case you'd only need 6 good people to complete the puzzles, but because the puzzle assignment is random you'd really want all 12 people to be able to solve puzzles. Having even one member unable to complete would be running the chance of a raid failure. If the "normal" result of 12 skilled players is raid victory, then having even 1 non-skilled player creates a 50% chance of raid failure*, which is a significant motivator to get 100% skilled people.

But of course we know it didn't work out like that, because the challenges are broken. Even a group of all good players will fail the raid more than they succeed. So having a couple of unskilled players who can't beat any puzzle doesn't really change the outcome, because you already expected to (at best) fail several tiems in a row before getting lucky enough to win. With that as the baseline, an extra 50% chance to fail isn't much of a punishment (especially if you know the trick about how the puzzle assignment isn't really random)

[Nuckin]

wow... this thread has gotten crazy... I originally had this huge message in my head that I was gonna type out but decided it wasn't worth it lol.

The moral of the story isn't that we are "jealous" that we cannot get raid loot from the Abbott, because quite frankly anyone with enough practice can beat the Abbott using exploits... it comes down to the fact that we choose not to exploit to obtain those items.

The main thing about exploiting is that in either directly or indirectly affects EVERYONE! your decision to cheat affects those who choose to obey the rules and wait until it is possible to be ran w/o cheese or exploits. Just think about all the past exploits especially the shroud.... The use of exploits by certain people/Guilds completely affected EVERYONE and their experience in the raid along with their game play... This is why people get so mad about posts like this... We understand the raid is hard itself and the fact that you guys have successfully completed certain parts of the raid the way it was intended is very awesome... but exploiting certain parts of it and gaining certain raid items because of it is wrong no matter how u look at it....

Just because this is a game doesn't mean that your morals and respect for other should just be tossed out the window... or maybe most of the people exploiting never had any in the first place...

[BigNastyMP]

I support Willphase %100.
I am okay with being perceived as high and mighty, I am usually both quite high and quite mighty.

I always wonder, what is it that the exploiters are trying to compensate for?

[moops]

I see alot of hypocrisy in this thread.

I see people that exploited The Reaver back in the day in a couple different ways. . .
People who Ransancked every toon they had for The Tome page Exploit. . .
People who Exploited the DQ. . .
People who still don't complete Titan as intended by the Devs. . .
I see these people preaching at others.

Now, I suppose one could argue that bypassing some Titan stuff is not an exploit since the Devs have not fixed it like they have the other stuff. . .but I'm sure that the devs never intended for us to all pull the same color stone by doing a neat little trick with the dialogue box. . ..

It is the hypocrisy of this thread that makes me sick.

[Quanefel]

I see alot of hypocrisy in this thread.

I see people that exploited The Reaver back in the day in a couple different ways. . .
People who Ransancked every toon they had for The Tome page Exploit. . .
People who Exploited the DQ. . .
People who still don't complete Titan as intended by the Devs. . .
I see these people preaching at others.

Now, I suppose one could argue that bypassing some Titan stuff is not an exploit since the Devs have not fixed it like they have the other stuff. . .but I'm sure that the devs never intended for us to all pull the same color stone by doing a neat little trick with the dialogue box. . ..

It is the hypocrisy of this thread that makes me sick.

And the last group of people you left out, the ones who have no wish to exploit this raid or anything for that matter. It is rather interesting you left those people out of your selective outrage of hypocrisy.

[soupertc]

And the last group of people you left out, the ones who have no wish to exploit this raid or anything for that matter. It is rather interesting you left those people out of your selective outrage of hypocrisy.

I think her point was cause maybe the post she was talking about were people that she had run with before....not in general.

[Thelmallen]

Originally Posted by Lebrac
we are elitist pricks and have a right to be.....

out of everything said in this thread this has to be the most bizzare.

So true....

[Deathe]

lol, I <3 Moops.

Hex, I'll give ya a mil plat if you name names!!!

- Dethe

[Erchamion]

So here we stand at the intersection of the moral compass. Which way is right? Each of has to decide that for ourselves. We (NSR) as a group have long stood for running the content as intended, in spirit, and as a guild principle. Sure, there are examples where people have deviated from that principle over the years, but they are few are far between, and for the mose part unintentional. Could we have made our point in a different way, perhaps, but I beleive the energy and focus on the topic exemplifies the importance of the accomplishment we feel when we complete the difficult raids. We have tried hard, and at great expense to our personal lives, to accomplish as much as we can in the game. With that effort brings a sense of entitlement, respect, and a responsibility to help others in game. Don't judge us based on one thread, look at our historical contributions to the game and the players, they are vast and well documented.

So my message is this, be yourself. If that means we disagree on how to solve a particular raid, then fine, it's a free country. I do beleive Garth speaks for the majority though that fair game play is hard work, and those that belittle the effort by using expolits are an issue to us all.

If you exploit, there's a risk, you accept it and live with the results (getting banned, sometimes multiple times . If it's fun for you and you get a thrill from the possibility of losing 3yrs of work, more power to you.

To me it looks like NSR has a big challenge ahead in Mod9 to down the Abbott once and for all IF the new changes make it possible in a legit manner. Stay tuned.

[Erchamion]

I see alot of hypocrisy in this thread.

I see people that exploited The Reaver back in the day in a couple different ways. . .
People who Ransancked every toon they had for The Tome page Exploit. . .
People who Exploited the DQ. . .
People who still don't complete Titan as intended by the Devs. . .
I see these people preaching at others.

Now, I suppose one could argue that bypassing some Titan stuff is not an exploit since the Devs have not fixed it like they have the other stuff. . .but I'm sure that the devs never intended for us to all pull the same color stone by doing a neat little trick with the dialogue box. . ..

It is the hypocrisy of this thread that makes me sick.

Hey Hexxa my dear, I beleive Brood and Matty are provoking a certain individual on puropse and not everyone in general as that individual has lost their right to play the game multiple times and still posts/plays and thinks they deserve respect. I can only hope the Cube catches him and bans him for the 3rd or 4th time, I don't know I've lost track... Nonetheless, his ability to stir up controversy and strife have not laxxed, and clearly he has not learned his lesson.

Besides, we're Clerics we prefer peace so let's graciouosly bow out of this battle and let the powers that be decide whom deserves the infractions in this case.

Best wishes,
Erch

[bobbryan2]

The only comment that really stood out to me was...

So instead of taking the higher moral ground and not running it
You chose to exploit it?

Seriously? That's where all you guys are coming from? That somehow it's more moral to simply not run the content, then to beat it 'some' way?

You can't seriously believe that Turbine wants people to not even go in there. Why would they have put all that effort if their end goal was to have a raid that nobody ran.

I'm sure Turbine would rather someone try to beat it any way possible rather than all the masses not even zone in. To say otherwise is ludicrous. I can't believe you guys actually think Turbine wants people to ignore content... and not only that... but that it's the moral high ground to do so.

You guys need to focus your righteous indignation at Turbine for leaving this raid this broken for over a year... not the players that try to make lemonade out of lemons.

[frugal_gourmet]

Let me be the first to laud this accomplishment in a completely backhanded manner. Allow me to casually dismiss it by pointing out how the quest is broken and only beatable by using exploits.

Did I say first?

I meant 67th.

[bobbryan2]

I'll be high and mighty because if you can't beat it as the developers have intended, you haven't truly beaten it.

Yes... obviously you are closer to what the devs intended. They obviously intended on no one ever running this quest, and actually boycotting the raid that was the culmination of three modules of storytelling.

If I had to choose between two people that were closer to doing what the devs intended between

Person A) Who sits on his butt, boycotts the raid, and accuses everyone who attempts the raid as being morally bankrupt

and

Person B) Who tries to beat the raid to the best of his ability...

I'm gonna go with B every single time. If you don't want to run it.. fine. But don't accuse others of doing things the devs didn't intend... because you are too.

[Baltire]

Let me clarify some things for people that like to spin words...

NSR for the most part can care less about doing the Abbot raid...

When its able to be completed without exploiting, we will try it...

Not one person in NSR is "jealous" of any other person for having Abbot raid loot, if they wanted it, Im sure theyd be right there with you.

As for being hypocritical, I dont remember anywhere in one of my posts ( and if I did say it, it was not intended) that I care about other people doing this raid "cheese" or not. I merely dont want to hear about it on the forums like its some big accomplishment.

As many have stated in this post, doing the puzzles that can be completed as intended is a good accomplishment. But if you have to finish the quest by doing any one of these "cheese" methods, you havent completed the entire raid.

Take the loot, enjoy it. I dont care about that, but dont flaunt it in everyone who doesnt feel like doing it your way's face. You can do this quest every time you come off timer as far as Im concerned, but stop posting on the forums that you beat the raid, when you clearly have not.

If not wanting to hear about you exploiting the game is being a hypocrite, then maybe I am.

Either way, no one is right. End of the day, the quest is still broken.

[bobbryan2]

Let me clarify some things for people that like to spin words...

NSR for the most part can care less about doing the Abbot raid...

When its able to be completed without exploiting, we will try it...

Not one person in NSR is "jealous" of any other person for having Abbot raid loot, if they wanted it, Im sure theyd be right there with you.

As for being hypocritical, I dont remember anywhere in one of my posts ( and if I did say it, it was not intended) that I care about other people doing this raid "cheese" or not. I merely dont want to hear about it on the forums like its some big accomplishment.

As many have stated in this post, doing the puzzles that can be completed as intended is a good accomplishment. But if you have to finish the quest by doing any one of these "cheese" methods, you havent completed the entire raid.

Take the loot, enjoy it. I dont care about that, but dont flaunt it in everyone who doesnt feel like doing it your way's face. You can do this quest every time you come off timer as far as Im concerned, but stop posting on the forums that you beat the raid, when you clearly have not.

If not wanting to hear about you exploiting the game is being a hypocrite, then maybe I am.

Either way, no one is right. End of the day, the quest is still broken.

Who really cares? The asteroid puzzle probably won't even exist in two months. I only have a problem with players that lay all the blame on other players when it's clearly the devs fault the raid is like it is.

[GeneralDiomedes]

c
it was still fun to be challenged in a raid, and thats why i run it
not for the loot
not for the xp
not for the favor

but for the enjoyment of (partially)being challenged by the abott

Then why didn't you recall before looting the chest?

If you want to have fun, and possibly run the raid for purposes of providing feedback to Turbine (which is a legitimate reason) then just recall.