Paladin: Defender of Siberys

[Ralmeth]

-sigh- can we PLEASE get a bump to our actual Intimidate instead of these "Increased hate from Melee Attacks" THing?

I was thinking the same thing...

Overall it looks interesting, but then so have so many other Paladin additions. The proof will be in the pudding, or actual game play. My take, as a long-standing Pally intimitank:
-I love the increase to max dex bonus to armor and tower shield. Very nice. If only I'd known this I would not have gone 3 levels of Fighter for the tower shield enhancement. Now with my current build I just need a +4 tome to take advantage of that. In fact, what Paladin tank right now would have built their guy with a high dex in mind if you knew you were not going to be able to use it? So in order to take full advantage of this PrC you will likely need to reroll.
-The AC increase from dodge bonus is very nice. Excellent But how long will this boost / stance last?
-Gaining aggro I found is much easier by pressing the intimidate button. A monster running away from you, chasing a squishy? You just have to get close enough to peel off the aggro. Excellent chance of grabbing aggro from a group of mobs? Hit intimidate. The increased hate does look really cool on tier 3. This will be helpful I think against mobs that you cannot intimidate.
-Tier 3 looks awesome! Too bad when I made my Pally Intimitank I didn't know that anything useful was going to be added after level 11 of Paladin. So I'll be stuck with tier 2, or a reroll. I'm sorry, but I've already rerolled my guy half a dozen times over the course of a couple of years to get him right (I am a casual player after all). Not sure I'm thrilled with the idea of doing it again. Think I'll work on my Sorcerer and Tempest Ranger.

So my proposed new Defender Build: Paladin 18 / Rogue 2
Rogue for evasion, intimidate and UMD. As nice as the increased hate will be, I think you will still really want intimidate on this build. And as as much as I think this will end up being the optimal build, I just find it so un-Paladin like to take Rogue levels. This PrC should grant intimidate as a class skill. That way it will make it possible to take 2 levels of Monk to pick up evasion and avoid the Rogue levels. It would also make it possible to make a pure Paladin defender with intimidate.

[Junts]

Eladrin is obviously on holidays and this post is one he set to hidden before he left. Tolero brought it out of hidden status for today. So don't expect any answers until Eladrin in back from his break.

From my understanding of the way enhancements are normally written makes me believe that the Dex bonus will only be +1 and the line just expands the range that the +1 affects ie. Tower Shields -> heavy armor-> medium armor.

I will say more when I am not at work.

My pure paladin is envious of all these AC calculations that others have, he walks around with a 50AC ... it may be time to reroll...

i agree with you; i also think this is too bad, as only gaining a passive +1 ac for the whole line is a relatively meager innate defensive bonus. so many of the cool features of this class are activated via the stance (which hopefully doesnt have limited usages, but just the speed issue will make it nonpervasive), and that's an interesting comparison to hunter of the dead, since they actually get some of the same benefits (eg, healing amp), but hunter has its benefits all the time.

[dragonofsteel2]

i agree with you; i also think this is too bad, as only gaining a passive +1 ac for the whole line is a relatively meager innate defensive bonus. so many of the cool features of this class are activated via the stance (which hopefully doesnt have limited usages, but just the speed issue will make it nonpervasive), and that's an interesting comparison to hunter of the dead, since they actually get some of the same benefits (eg, healing amp), but hunter has its benefits all the time.

Also does not seem would gain much AC from the stance just agro holding methods since can not go into CE, from what I know only can be in one stance at once. So with the whole line lose 1 AC, but will have better agro holding tank that is for sure. To me look more impressive to start, but not sure if really is with the rules, with one stance and if you guys right just upping the +1 to med. heavy on the second two.

[Junts]

Also does not seem would gain much AC from the stance just agro holding methods since can not go into CE, from what I know only can be in one stance at once. So with the whole line lose 1 AC, but will have better agro holding tank that is for sure. To me look more impressive to start, but not sure if really is with the rules, with one stance and if you guys right just upping the +1 to med. heavy on the second two.

I have the feeling that this won't be exclusive with combat expertise just like monk stances aren't; the question is whether it has any other limiting factors besides the movement speed (eg a uses per day, a duration, etc), as it seems unlikely to me that they would permit it to be so effective in enclosed situations.

[dragonofsteel2]

I have the feeling that this won't be exclusive with combat expertise just like monk stances aren't; the question is whether it has any other limiting factors besides the movement speed (eg a uses per day, a duration, etc), as it seems unlikely to me that they would permit it to be so effective in enclosed situations.

Either way need more explaining to understand how it works. See no problem with the two different things stacking if was not for had to go into combat expertise, maybe just me is seems kind goofy to be able fight two different styles at same time. Although guess can explain it away saying that practice combat expertise in the pally new stance and say not really stance just more defensive type of fighting.

Though after all these new changes coming up really would like one time total re-spec. of all characters. Probably will not get it, but just another change that might influence the way built my pally/fighter.

[Junts]

Either way need more explaining to understand how it works. See no problem with the two different things stacking if was not for had to go into combat expertise, maybe just me is seems kind goofy to be able fight two different styles at same time. Although guess can explain it away saying that practice combat expertise in the pally new stance and say not really stance just more defensive type of fighting.

Though after all these new changes coming up really would like one time total re-spec. of all characters. Probably will not get it, but just another change that might influence the way built my pally/fighter.

you can use ce and monk stances at the same time..

[dragonofsteel2]

you can use ce and monk stances at the same time..

Never said you could not , all said does not make much sense to me then explain it away lol.

[dragonofsteel2]

Ok, math lesson

+5 MFP is 13 armor, 3 MD, DT fullplate is 15 armor, 1 MD. Meaning that even with a daggertooth belt, and this full line, your max dex on it would be 5. Which if at level 20 your build isnt able to hit a 20 dexterity and your built for AC, reroll. Dwarves could potentially push that to a max dex of 8, which means 26 dex needed,where you would almost have a leg to stand on.

So now a dwarf pally is looking at a

10 base
15 armor
9 shield
7 dex
2 alc
5 prot
5 bark
10 dodge
5 CE
4 insight
5 aura
_________
77,nevermind outside buffs and the boost to his auras

Yeah can make Ac build hit 80, dam already got one hits 70 self buff, although adding 5 bark-skin and best can do 4 with the boots or 4 with new armor. So really would be one less self buff with current items, hits your 77 if a dwarf wit 8 dex. Lot information still not in, so to soon for me to say how good this is or not. I do like some things coming down so far, waiting with interest of the other new changes.

[Angelus_dead]

When making my own predicted designs for Defender of Siberys and Stalwart Defender, I gave them 2 charges of Defensive Stance that regenerated every 90 seconds (like Smite Evil), on the theory that the player should be able to use the ability a lot, but not 100% of the time. But that's something difficult to judge outside of playtest (especially without knowing the duration, or how strong the speed penalty really is)

However, I recommend that Defender of Siberys get some additional uses, even if they don't regenerate over time. At minimum I suggest +1 charge of AC Boost per tier of the specialty.

Please note that the only other specialty to make important use of a boost (Kensai Power Surge) does grant increased charges. Also, because the Kensai's ability doesn't restrict his movement, he's more able to use the same charge for multiple encounters. And, a Kensai will have less incentive to stack Power Surge + Attack Boost than a Defender does to stack Defensive Stance + AC Boost.

[SynfoolaCMT]

My monk with a 70's standing ac says it would be nice to have PLATE wearers be on the front line.

/signed

Because 53 AC at lev 12 with all the millions I spent to get there feels like a letdown when someone in a dress runs daintily by and is untouchable. :O

[Lillitheris]

Well well well, what do we have here...

This one looks awesome. Having said that, the other two paladin PrEs look even less appealing now.

A couple of points/suggestions:

• The stance must be a stance. Toggle on/off and expend one armor boost per activation ('on'). A 30 sec cooldown might be in order. The speed decrease is enough of a penalty in itself. If the defensive stance is yet another button to smash in the hectic clicky-fest paladins already have...
• The stance shouldn't be interrupted by casting a spell or activating another stance (PA, CE).
• The pseudo-intimidate ie. melee hate generation seems okay. It should be useful against normal monsters too; intimidate (skill) + cleave will guarantee some long-lasting hate.
• Unlike the other paladin PrEs, this one has mostly useful pre-reqs. A tanking paladin should already have at least one of the required feats. Faith II on the other hand... well at least Unyelding Sovereignity is 'okay'.
• Like Angelus_Dead suggested, the higher tier stances should make you immune/very resistant to knockdown.
• +40 hps, +100% healing amplification, +400% hate, +4 AC (possibly +2/+3 more with heavy armor/tower shields), CLW on hit, DR20/epic, immune to wounding; vorpal and the like, reduced damage from elemental and negative attacks.... I can't see how any defensively built paladin wouldn't want to take this PrE.

[Venar]

I know the WF hate-generation toggle is turned off by rage. So i dont have much hopes for stacking.

[Cold_Stele]

I know the WF hate-generation toggle is turned off by rage. So i dont have much hopes for stacking.

The guy who started the thread on that was told to bug report it by Eladrin.

Interesting to see that the devs have agreed with the genius (me ) who said the simplest way to solve the Pally Intimidate problem was just to boost hate generation and make it a stance...

[Milolyen]

When making my own predicted designs for Defender of Siberys and Stalwart Defender, I gave them 2 charges of Defensive Stance that regenerated every 90 seconds (like Smite Evil), on the theory that the player should be able to use the ability a lot, but not 100% of the time. But that's something difficult to judge outside of playtest (especially without knowing the duration, or how strong the speed penalty really is)

However, I recommend that Defender of Siberys get some additional uses, even if they don't regenerate over time. At minimum I suggest +1 charge of AC Boost per tier of the specialty.

Please note that the only other specialty to make important use of a boost (Kensai Power Surge) does grant increased charges. Also, because the Kensai's ability doesn't restrict his movement, he's more able to use the same charge for multiple encounters. And, a Kensai will have less incentive to stack Power Surge + Attack Boost than a Defender does to stack Defensive Stance + AC Boost.

Well if you look at the discription it states that you use a armor boost when you go into this stance and it says stance and not boost. So my guess would be that it is a stance you can turn on and off like power attack, CE is one of the required feats so I would guess that this would be on a different stance setting like monk stances are. Then you would be able to go into that stance as long as you have an armor boost available to you which is what ... 5 per rest if I am not mistaken?

Milolyen

[Eladrin]

Stopping by for a moment to answer a couple of questions before zooming off again...

Defensive Stance is a stance, on its own channel. You can't be in Stalwart Defender Defensive Stance and Defender of Siberys Defensive Stance simultaneously, but it should stack with things like Combat Expertise. It lasts until you voluntarily leave it; speed penalties tend to be pretty crippling when you aren't actively defending. (Remember the original Mountain Stance?)

Defensive Stance doesn't break on spellcast like Combat Expertise does, but as an "ability that require patience or concentration", you cannot enter a rage while in Defensive Stance. (Originally we had it the other way around, with enrage effects dispelling Defensive Stance, but ran into the "my party member cast rage and knocked me out of my stance" problem.)

increases the maximum dexterity bonus allowed by tower shields and medium or heavy armor by 1

These are cumulative. By tier three, the Paladin gets +3 to MDB of Tower Shields, +2 to Heavy Armor, and +1 to Medium Armor.

[maddmatt70]

Stopping by for a moment to answer a couple of questions before zooming off again...

Defensive Stance is a stance, on its own channel. You can't be in Stalwart Defender Defensive Stance and Defender of Siberys Defensive Stance simultaneously, but it should stack with things like Combat Expertise. It lasts until you voluntarily leave it; speed penalties tend to be pretty crippling when you aren't actively defending. (Remember the original Mountain Stance?)

Defensive Stance doesn't break on spellcast like Combat Expertise does, but as an "ability that require patience or concentration", you cannot enter a rage while in Defensive Stance. (Originally we had it the other way around, with enrage effects dispelling Defensive Stance, but ran into the "my party member cast rage and knocked me out of my stance" problem.)


These are cumulative. By tier three, the Paladin gets +3 to MDB of Tower Shields, +2 to Heavy Armor, and +1 to Medium Armor.

Thanks for stopping by Eladrin. Just a couple of quick clarification questions. Tier 1 adds an ac to shield blocking - what exactly is the bonus atm? Tier 3 adds a bonus to all auras - what is the bonus?

[ArkoHighStar]

Stopping by for a moment to answer a couple of questions before zooming off again...

Defensive Stance is a stance, on its own channel. You can't be in Stalwart Defender Defensive Stance and Defender of Siberys Defensive Stance simultaneously, but it should stack with things like Combat Expertise. It lasts until you voluntarily leave it; speed penalties tend to be pretty crippling when you aren't actively defending. (Remember the original Mountain Stance?)

Defensive Stance doesn't break on spellcast like Combat Expertise does, but as an "ability that require patience or concentration", you cannot enter a rage while in Defensive Stance. (Originally we had it the other way around, with enrage effects dispelling Defensive Stance, but ran into the "my party member cast rage and knocked me out of my stance" problem.)


These are cumulative. By tier three, the Paladin gets +3 to MDB of Tower Shields, +2 to Heavy Armor, and +1 to Medium Armor.

nice any comment on the amount of extra ac from blocking, and what the bonuses to defensive aura's will be or is that the increase to max dex bonus

[ArkoHighStar]

Thanks for stopping by Eladrin. Just a couple of quick clarification questions. Tier 1 adds an ac to shield blocking - what exactly is the bonus atm? Tier 3 adds a bonus to all auras - what is the bonus?

well looks like we were thinking of the same thing

[Lithic]

...It lasts until you voluntarily leave it; speed penalties tend to be pretty crippling when you aren't actively defending. (Remember the original Mountain Stance?)...

If you want the speed penalty to be cripling, make sure you cant just tumble to get around it like the docent of defiance.

[sephiroth1084]

snip

Happy X-mas and/or Chanukah Eladrin!

/hug