So is a transmuter really better than SOS against Big Red?

[Averroes]

I use a +1 Holy Burst Silver Greataxe on the beast, and still feel like I am not churning out the numbers I ought to be.

No matter what you use, be sure that everyone is using something to get past his DR.

If you are dishing higher yellow numbers more often with the SoS than you are with a +3 transmuter, use that instead(but I doubt you are).

The +1 holy burst is a fairly crappy weapon -- vs. a plain +5, you're trading 4 crittable damage for a 2d6 effect and the burst. The damage is slightly better than a plain +5 (total added by HB over 20 swings is 161, as opposed to 108 for the plain +5 -- a +5 of pg is up to 174.5), but the 4 additional attack bonus offsets the damage difference.


And I can't think of any way the SOS could outdamage a decent transmuter against something with DR 15+. Losing 4 glancing blows per chain at 20-25 damage each is significant. Per 20 attacks, call it +320-ish damage to a single target.

[Strumpoo]

Thanks for chart and the opinions guys.

Yeah I don't bust the SOS out too much anymore, just like the insane every other swing crits..

Usually am using the Tier III stuff now, but against Big Red they are nothing special (unless mineral or a lightning bow)

I guess the Transmuter is indeed better, the glancing blows definitely should tip the scales in the transmuter's favor. Something I wasn't thinking of.

[sirgog]

To make the comparison, think of DR slightly differently: Consider Transmuting to be a bonus 15 damage on every swing (on normal).

Your +3 transmuter of pure good has +3 accuracy, +21.5 damage (15 Transmuting, 3.5 PG, +3 Enhancement)
Your SoS has +5 accuracy, +5 damage and better crits.



The question becomes - would you prefer +2 accuracy and better crits over +16.5 damage? I think the answer would be close, save for Arrietrikos's 50% Fortification (so your SoS crits on average deal double, not triple damage - triple on the one that gets through his fort, normal on the one that doesn't - average double damage on a 13-20 that is confirmed) as opposed to the greataxe (double damage on average again, 17-20).

Also on Normal, Arraetrikos's AC isn't high enough that the +2 accuracy matters much (it does a LOT more on elite where it is 51)




My guide to acceptable weapon quality for the Fiend:

Normal - anything +3 or better that bypasses DR is acceptable, as is any bursting of greater bane or +4 or better greater bane that doesn't bypass DR
Hard - minimum acceptible is a +5 transmuter with a weak kicker like backstab +1 or lesser bane (other reasonably equivalent weapons like +5 silver of pure good, +4 transmuting of lesser bane, +2 transmuting of bane, +3 holy silver, +1 holy burst silver of pure good are all fine)
Elite - You need something special here - holy silver of bane, transmuting of greater bane, Mineral 2, or if TWF, any two of the earlier listed weapons or a weapon set of something like Holy silver of Backstab +4//Seeker 8 silver of pure good.

[Darth_Sizzle]

...my +3 Transmuting Greataxe of Shattermantle (and yes that suffix is important for 2 reasons, 1. I am not doing any more damage from it, 2. casters get a benefit when debuffing and damaging him)...

Damaging spells do not suffer SR. Debuffs? Against the Pit Fiend? What debuffs can you use on the pit fiend?

[Strumpoo]

Damaging spells do not suffer SR. Debuffs? Against the Pit Fiend? What debuffs can you use on the pit fiend?

On my caster I use Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion, Crushing Despair, and Waves of Fatigue.

They all land and stick on him. They help to slow him down a little for the tankers and help the clerics by lowering his damage.

[Averroes]

Damaging spells do not suffer SR. Debuffs? Against the Pit Fiend? What debuffs can you use on the pit fiend?

Ray of enfeeble/exhaustion, waves of fatigue/exhaustion (which lists its effect separately from the ray version), symbol of weakness, probably also symbol of pain. As a general rule, necromancy debuffs work against everything. If you landed all of those, that's easily -15 attack. (and crushing despair! Forgot that one...)

There's also a small damage penalty for solid fog, although I don't think anyone has tested whether it's actually being applied (would have to test in a ctf arena...).


And nice weapon listing Sirgog. I pretty much agree.

Probably for Sulo, you need to have at least a weapon that'd be acceptable on hard in Shroud. Definitely wish more people would build mineral II weaps instead of useless garbage like lightning strike though...

[Strumpoo]

Ray of enfeeble/exhaustion, waves of fatigue/exhaustion (which lists its effect separately from the ray version), symbol of weakness, probably also symbol of pain. As a general rule, necromancy debuffs work against everything. If you landed all of those, that's easily -15 attack. (and crushing despair! Forgot that one...)

There's also a small damage penalty for solid fog, although I don't think anyone has tested whether it's actually being applied (would have to test in a ctf arena...).


And nice weapon listing Sirgog. I pretty much agree.

Probably for Sulo, you need to have at least a weapon that'd be acceptable on hard in Shroud. Definitely wish more people would build mineral II weaps instead of useless garbage like lightning strike though...

Yep, I think the necro de-buffs are quite handy against bosses.

I have to disagree with the other enhancements being "useless garbage"

Ever see a ranger group with a few of those "useless" lightning bows ahnillilate Big Red? It is a beautiful thing. Think our last round five took 7-8 mins. Only had enough time to manyshot 3 times.

Crushing Wave hits the portals for Full Damage. And absolutely destroys anything that is firey in nature (fire ele in part 2 anyone?).

Radiance ....mmm... Roguie Damage insanity.


They all have their uses... Just because they aren't transmuting I wouldn't call them useless.

[Aranticus]

Yep, I think the necro de-buffs are quite handy against bosses.

I have to disagree with the other enhancements being "useless garbage"

Ever see a ranger group with a few of those "useless" lightning bows ahnillilate Big Red? It is a beautiful thing. Think our last round five took 7-8 mins. Only had enough time to manyshot 3 times.

Crushing Wave hits the portals for Full Damage. And absolutely destroys anything that is firey in nature (fire ele in part 2 anyone?).

Radiance ....mmm... Roguie Damage insanity.


They all have their uses... Just because they aren't transmuting I wouldn't call them useless.

av is referring to melee weapons as the lightning strike is unable to bypass the dr. going by the avg percentage of a lightning strike at 2% in 100 hits, the mineral 2 will do about 1500 more base damage but the lightning strike will do 1200. so there is an approx loss of 300. bows are different as they are able to bypass dr with silver arrows

(ps i do not know what is the resist acid rating of harry, lightning goes thru as per normal, so the gap could be smaller, there could also be a chance where the lightning strike will out dps mineral 2 on NORMAL. on hard, harry has dr30, its going to be diff to pull level)

[Citymorg]

To make the comparison, think of DR slightly differently: Consider Transmuting to be a bonus 15 damage on every swing (on normal).

Your +3 transmuter of pure good has +3 accuracy, +21.5 damage (15 Transmuting, 3.5 PG, +3 Enhancement)
Your SoS has +5 accuracy, +5 damage and better crits.



The question becomes - would you prefer +2 accuracy and better crits over +16.5 damage? I think the answer would be close, save for Arrietrikos's 50% Fortification (so your SoS crits on average deal double, not triple damage - triple on the one that gets through his fort, normal on the one that doesn't - average double damage on a 13-20 that is confirmed) as opposed to the greataxe (double damage on average again, 17-20).

Also on Normal, Arraetrikos's AC isn't high enough that the +2 accuracy matters much (it does a LOT more on elite where it is 51)




My guide to acceptable weapon quality for the Fiend:

Normal - anything +3 or better that bypasses DR is acceptable, as is any bursting of greater bane or +4 or better greater bane that doesn't bypass DR
Hard - minimum acceptible is a +5 transmuter with a weak kicker like backstab +1 or lesser bane (other reasonably equivalent weapons like +5 silver of pure good, +4 transmuting of lesser bane, +2 transmuting of bane, +3 holy silver, +1 holy burst silver of pure good are all fine)
Elite - You need something special here - holy silver of bane, transmuting of greater bane, Mineral 2, or if TWF, any two of the earlier listed weapons or a weapon set of something like Holy silver of Backstab +4//Seeker 8 silver of pure good.

I think this is great. However, I don't have any of these weapons. My best Pit Fiend weapons are, in order:
+3 Transmuting Greataxe of Shattermantle
+1 Holy Silver Battleaxe
Sword of Shadows
+5 Mineral I Greataxe

I don't have a problem hitting either Pit fiend with these. Therefore, I do not believe it is necessary to have a +3 or a +5 in some cases. Yes, the extra +4 to hit and +4 damage is siginificant. It makes having +5 far superior, but at least on normal and probably on hard, I do not consider necessary, as long as you are able effectively bypass DR and still land a hit (get that extra +15/hit).

I have never done the Shroud on Elite so I don't know if less than a +5 would still hit or not.

Other than that, I agree with your list and thank you for putting it together.

[Strumpoo]

av is referring to melee weapons as the lightning strike is unable to bypass the dr. going by the avg percentage of a lightning strike at 2% in 100 hits, the mineral 2 will do about 1500 more base damage but the lightning strike will do 1200. so there is an approx loss of 300. bows are different as they are able to bypass dr with silver arrows

(ps i do not know what is the resist acid rating of harry, lightning goes thru as per normal, so the gap could be smaller, there could also be a chance where the lightning strike will out dps mineral 2 on NORMAL. on hard, harry has dr30, its going to be diff to pull level)

Hmmm, well that doesn't sound right. The lightning strike should bypass his DR even with melee weapons. After all it is lightning, which he has no DR against. Sounds like a bug. My caster doesn't need to use a "silver pure good" lightning spell to penetrate any DR. The lightning strike effect should work the same, since it is a "spell" type effect.


Acid resist is 15 I beleive (on normal) (hard 30), my acid fogs and what not are Yellow numbers. So I would think the melees are getting no damage off of the acid effect on mineral II items.

[Mhykke]

Hmmm, well that doesn't sound right. The lightning strike should bypass his DR even with melee weapons. After all it is lightning, which he has no DR against. Sounds like a bug. My caster doesn't need to use a "silver pure good" lightning spell to penetrate any DR. The lightning strike effect should work the same, since it is a "spell" type effect.

He's not talking about the lightning effect. He's talking about the physical, every hit damage from the lightning II weapon.

[Averroes]

Hmmm, well that doesn't sound right. The lightning strike should bypass his DR even with melee weapons. After all it is lightning, which he has no DR against. Sounds like a bug. My caster doesn't need to use a "silver pure good" lightning spell to penetrate any DR. The lightning strike effect should work the same, since it is a "spell" type effect.


Acid resist is 15 I beleive (on normal) (hard 30), my acid fogs and what not are Yellow numbers. So I would think the melees are getting no damage off of the acid effect on mineral II items.

Yes, the lightning strike bypasses his DR, but the main damage number doesn't.

On a two-handed weapon, on normal, you lose (15*5) + (15*4) = 135 damage every five swings due to not bypassing DR. Obviously that number goes up dramatically on hard or elite.

Extrapolate that out over 100 swings, and that's 2700 damage lost, versus the 1200 gained by lightning strike, before factoring in other effects (and yes, the lower level lightning effects will narrow the gap somewhat, but it still isn't close).


I was being somewhat facetious when I called all other shroud weapon effects "useless garbage", but my point remains -- if you're using any shroud melee weapon in there other than a mineral II weapon, you're giving up damage relative to a weapon that would bypass DR.

And as was pointed out above, it's different for bows, assuming the bow-user is willing to carry the right arrows for the job.

[Strumpoo]

Now does the shock effect on the melee weapons have any DR against it? It shouldn't right? If so I think the Tier III lightning weapons should keep up with the Mineral weapons. Since they are adding in all that shocking damage to make up for the damage lost to DR.

Never used a shock melee weapon on him so don't know...

[adamkatt]

The transmuting Great Axe of Greater Evil Outsider Bane will win.

[Angelus_dead]

I was being somewhat facetious when I called all other shroud weapon effects "useless garbage", but my point remains -- if you're using any shroud melee weapon in there other than a mineral II weapon, you're giving up damage relative to a weapon that would bypass DR.

A Lightning II weapon is more damaging than +1 transmuting. It's also more damaging than +5 transmuting. Or even +5 transmuting of pure good.

The transmuting gives you +15 damage. Lightning II has 2d6 Holy + 1d6 Shock + 10 Lightning Strike + some more Shocking Burst/Blast. That comes to 3d6+10 ~=19.5 extra damage, so that it is ahead of +5 transmuting by 4.5 damage even before you factor in the burst, blast, and larger physical damage die.

[Averroes]

A Lightning II weapon is more damaging than +1 transmuting. It's also more damaging than +5 transmuting. Or even +5 transmuting of pure good.

The transmuting gives you +15 damage. Lightning II has 2d6 Holy + 1d6 Shock + 10 Lightning Strike + some more Shocking Burst/Blast. That comes to 3d6+10 ~=19.5 extra damage, so that it is ahead of +5 transmuting by 4.5 damage even before you factor in the burst, blast, and larger physical damage die.

Only if you're using one-handed weapons, and only on normal.

If you're using a two-hander, transmuting is giving you 15 + (.2 * 60) = 27. So the lighting weapon is behind by 7.5 before factoring in burst and blast (which are unlikely to make up the difference), against just a plain jane +5 transmuter.



The other thing not being considered here is crit damage -- not bypassing DR also reduces your crittable damage. Once you factor that in, the gap widens dramatically in favor of transmuters.

For instance, if you're using a greataxe with a barbarian, and critting 17-20, you're giving up 45 damage per crit, 180 damage per 20 swings, or an average of 9 additional damage per swing.

So to add that back to the calculation above, the simple +5 transmuter is really at 36 damage added due to bypassing DR, as opposed to the 19.5 from the lightning damage dice. So a weapon that you can buy on the auction house for face value is roughly twice as effective as a weapon that takes 20+ shroud runs to grind out.


Again, the difference isn't as great with one handed weapons, and isn't as great on normal as on hard and elite, but if you really think that all those damage dice are making up for your yellow first number, you're very likely wrong. There's always the case of the 9 strength rogue, or whatever, but for the vast majority of situations, if you aren't bypassing DR, you aren't doing the most damage you could be doing.


For completeness, here's the calculation with a dual-wielding ranger:

+15 to every swing. Assume rapier, crit 15-20/x2. So 30*6=180 damage per 20 swings, same 9 average = 24

So if the burst and blast portion of the lightning effect equal 4.5 average damage over 20 swings they break even (the plain +5 transmuter and the tier-3 lightning weapon, that is). The mineral II weapon is miles ahead in each of these cases. Simply miles.

[Averroes]

A Lightning II weapon is more damaging than +1 transmuting. It's also more damaging than +5 transmuting. Or even +5 transmuting of pure good.

The transmuting gives you +15 damage. Lightning II has 2d6 Holy + 1d6 Shock + 10 Lightning Strike + some more Shocking Burst/Blast. That comes to 3d6+10 ~=19.5 extra damage, so that it is ahead of +5 transmuting by 4.5 damage even before you factor in the burst, blast, and larger physical damage die.

One last thing: counting lightning strike as 10 average damage is being *very* generous. 1200 over 100 swings is 12, sure, but the odds of having both procs do full damage without killing your target and wasting damage probably aren't very good.

[Aranticus]

For instance, if you're using a greataxe with a barbarian, and critting 17-20, you're giving up 45 damage per crit, 180 damage per 20 swings, or an average of 9 additional damage per swing.

wrong even on crit you still get DR15, the DR is not multiplied

ie
normal hit: weapon damage - DR, eg 50 - 15 = 35

crit hit: weapon damagex3 - DR, eg 50x3 - 15 = 135

both attacks are reduced by 15, the DR is not applied before the multiplication

[Aranticus]

One last thing: counting lightning strike as 10 average damage is being *very* generous. 1200 over 100 swings is 12, sure, but the odds of having both procs do full damage without killing your target and wasting damage probably aren't very good.

have you used a lightning strike before? if you have you'll know that the lightning strike does on average 530 - 670. most of the numbers you get however will lie between 600-630. plus we are talking about harry here with 750000 hp

[Averroes]

wrong even on crit you still get DR15, the DR is not multiplied

ie
normal hit: weapon damage - DR, eg 50 - 15 = 35

crit hit: weapon damagex3 - DR, eg 50x3 - 15 = 135

both attacks are reduced by 15, the DR is not applied before the multiplication

You're right. Dunno what I was thinking there.