any pally love for new mod?

[Gunga]

Oh, I agree that it should be addressed in the future.

The real question is rather whether it will or will not. One thing is certain though, if Turbine really seeks to fix it, it will be through a series of serious changes to fighters, paladins and rangers; followed by a rebalancing of mobs' to-hit to follow these changes. Armor Mastery will be open to given to every class. Bard's will only work on light armor, Barbarian's will work on light and medium, Paladin's will work on light, medium and heavy. Then, Fighter's Tower Shield Profiency will open in a way that everyone that picks up the feat can use it, it will not be bound to a class or race. Then, you'll remove every single Bulwark of Good enhancements and increase the bonus from Aura of Good from 1 to 2. Finally, you remove Ranger's Favored Defense.

Oh, and Dwarven Armor Mastery is changed so it doesn't stack with the other Armor Masteries. However, it'll work on light, medium and heavy armor and will cost twice less (1, 2 and 3 rather than 2, 4 and 6). This eliminates the advantage of dwarves on AC at the same time. They've got enough other bonuses to not make them "gimped", so it's alright. (Well, they have an advantage s it eases high AC, but they can't reach higher than others.) The reason that Armor Mastery was given to everyone rather than removed is that Armor Mastery requires you to start with an higher Dex score, which cannot be respec'd.

From that point, you've reduced the impact of a heavy focus on AC and brang the ACs closer together.

Then, you must stop releasing Armor Class boosting through bound loot. Make it tradeable, I'm all up for it. If you want to encourage defensive tank to raid more, find synergetic effects to go with it, but don't increase the amount of raid loot needed for it. You're doing the game a diservice by doing that. Every single bound loot that will be added will make it harder for newcomer to reach a decent AC.

Lastly, it's very important that quest designing changes. No more Shrouds! That was a disaster AC-wise.

Until then, AC will remain "broken" as in that anything that is not close to top notch will suffer greatly. I've seen arguments about "But you don't want unkillable tanks who kill everything." but you will roll a 20 one day or another, adn there are ways to deal daamge regardless of the AC as Running with the Devils show us very well.

Maybe. Or maybe they won't do any of this and still fix AC. They are not going to help us realize better, more balanced, AC by nerfing a laundry list of AC improvements . I think we need even more ways to get to higher ac, by way of enhancement, crafting and items besides impossible to find rare raid loot, at the cost of a compromise: lower dps, losing another item slot, less hps, etc. Who cares really as long as it works. Let's call it a work in progress.

I believe that AC is broken and refuse to see it as a class feature until a new player can get a significant amount of AC at end game. However, I, like you, believe that high AC is still effective, even though there are some issues that should be fixed first. Peopel tend to forget that there is a cost in DPS to get that AC...

It's "broken", but it's "still effective"... I prefer works, but needs tweaking.

I'll ask you again, may you list me the buffs you find so valuable, please?

Resistance
Lesser Restore
Divine Favor
Bless
Angel Skin
Resist Energy
Prayer
Cure Serious
Holy Sword
Death Ward
Neutralize Poison
Restoration

Actually, I will never play a barbarian because it's too reliant on the party. Not my style, I hate to have to rely on others. But you'll have tob admit it's more effective to rely on them. My favorite toon is my bard. I also love my sorcerer. I'm also planning to roll a rogue when school's over and I get more playtime.

I would play WoW before being cursed with leveling another bard. What a terrible grind...sorry Abi.

I'd like paladins if they weren't so low on the DPS side. I can see them being lower while S&B, but the gap is just larger than it should. I mean, they've got to compete against barbarians with Power Rage IV, Barbarian's Power Attack III and Critical Rage II and with rangers with Ram's Might and Tempest I. If you at it clearly, all except Power rage IV were additions that happened during Module 3.3 (Barbarian's Power Attack III and Critical Rage I) or after (Critical Rage II, Ram's Might and Tempest I) while paladins got a reduction to Divine Favor instead...

I like palis position in the global melee DPS range. They could use some more, but it's a nitpicky thing. I hate that they get outkilled by rogues, but the volume of party resources that the rogue needs to keep up that kill count is amusing.

That's why I'm arguing to give the more DPS. It was fine before, but they've thrown the balance at the garbage. They have to fix their mistake. They have made of barbarians their new standard and raised rangers to their level. Now, they've got to do the same for fighters and paladins. I'll agree there will be a balance between DPS and defensive capacities. It's a good thing to add defensive capacities to the paladin, but some DPS must be added as we're in a DPS-based game and, like it wasn't enough, in a DPS-heavy metagame.

I'm with ya. Though I really don't care that the Barb is far ahead in DPS, I don't think that the ranger should be that close to the barb. We need to adjust a bit.

Let me disagree with you on this.

How? Palis need more LoH, or they should have so much healing that a party doesn't need a cleric at end-game? I'm not clear on your view.

[Borror0]

I think we need even more ways to get to higher ac, by way of enhancement, crafting and items besides impossible to find rare raid loot, at the cost of a compromise: lower dps, losing another item slot, less hps, etc. Who cares really as long as it works.

Actually, no. That's hurting the game. The more items they will add, the weaker defensive build will be.

Let's not be fools and think that they'll add more items to make it easy for everyone to reach worthy AC. They will balance the module, or the following module with these items in mind. Getting these, like you've pointed out, lower your DPS, your HP, you loose extra item slots... it weakens the character further more each time. He gets hit as often at each module... but from module to module, his DPS starts getting more and more behind, his HP are smaller and smaller (in proportion).

Basicly, the more specialisation is needed to get a valuable AC, the worse AC is. There's a cost!

I'd also like to add that crafting is a poor way to "fix" AC. It requires grinding and, unless it's a small amount, it's just hurtful for the new player.

It's "broken", but it's "still effective"... I prefer works, but needs tweaking.

Fine with me. Can we settle on "needs major tweaking"?

I like palis position in the global melee DPS range.

You mean being at the very bottom?

It is funny how much party resources the rogue needs to keep up that kill count...

I disagree, rogue take much less resources than most classes... played right.
Anyway, let's talk about that after the Diplomacy and Intimidate change, you'll change your mind.

I'm with ya. Though I really don't care that the Barb is far ahead in DPS, I don't think that the ranger should be that close to the barb. We need to adjust a bit.

You got me wrong, I'm fine with rangers being that close. If you look at them, they're a DPS class.
Otherwise I really need to get someone to explain why in hell they got Favored Enemy and TwF as class feats...

If you're not ok with rangers, you shouldn't be ok with barbarians too. I think most people will agree that barbarians are currently the most powerful melee class in the game. Maybe not the most fun, as everyone point of view of "fun" will be different, but most peopel will agree that barbarians are stronger than rangers, paladins and fighters as a class.

I'm not clear on your view.

I have yet to see a paladin's healing amaze me to the point where I tell myself that paladins are an healing class.

[Gunga]

Actually, no. That's hurting the game. The more items they will add, the weaker defensive build will be. Let's not be fools and think that they'll add more items to make it easy for everyone to reach worthy AC. They will balance the module, or the following module with these items in mind. Getting these, like you've pointed out, lower your DPS, your HP, you loose extra item slots... it weakens the character further more each time. He gets hit as often at each module... but from module to module, his DPS starts getting more and more behind, his HP are smaller and smaller (in proportion).

The solution won't be found in an all or nothing fix. Items certainly help all classes get to a more relevant AC. Defensive specialists could be handled with more feat/enhancement AC options. Palis should be handled with enhancements and spells. These are only the actions that we can take if we want to focus on defense; the game still needs a bit of an adjustment so that AC feels like it matters.

Basicly, the more specialisation is needed to get a valuable AC, the worse AC is. There's a cost!

Huh?

I'd also like to add that crafting is a poor way to "fix" AC. It requires grinding and, unless it's a small amount, it's just hurtful for the new player.

A little off topic, but ok: what should the benefit be for grinding...DPS? Resistance? Flying?

You mean being at the very bottom?

Yep.

I disagree, rogue take much less resources than most classes... played right.
Anyway, let's talk about that after the Diplomacy and Intimidate change, you'll change your mind.

If you build a hyper combat rogue, you might have less of this problem, or you might exacerbate it. If a rogue is out DPSing the melee, he's getting agro and requiring the cleric's undivided attention. We'll see...

You got me wrong, I'm fine with rangers being that close. If you look at them, they're a DPS class.
Otherwise I really need to get someone to explain why in hell they got Favored Enemy and TwF as class feats...

If you're not ok with rangers, you shouldn't be ok with barbarians too. I think most people will agree that barbarians are currently the most powerful melee class in the game. Maybe not the most fun, as everyone point of view of "fun" will be different, but most peopel will agree that barbarians are stronger than rangers, paladins and fighters as a class.

If you're fine with rangers equaling the dps of barbs, than your concept of balance is different than mine. Barbs top, Rangers noticably less, Palis very close to if a bit less than rangers. That's my expectation of the DPS output from the three melee classes based on playing D&D for far too long.

I have yet to see a paladin's healing amaze me to the point where I tell myself that paladins are an healing class.

Healing class?

[Borror0]

Huh?

I mean "the worse AC builds are". The more you need to specialise, the more you lack in the other departements.
If maintaining AC means mroe and more sacrifices each module, you're simply loosing more, not gaining.

Clearer?

A little off topic, but ok: what should the benefit be for grinding...DPS? Resistance? Flying?

The reason AC shouldn't be the result of grinding simple, we're in a d20 system.
So, to answer your question, anything that's not in a d20 system to determinate its efficiency.

There is also two very important component into a good and healthy grinding. Grinding should offer an advantage over those won't grind that's big enough to encourage the grind, but not big enough to eclipse those who didn't. Also, any grinding must be rendered obsolete after a while by easy to obtain gear as new grinds are implemented. This both satisfies the one that don't grind as they got access to new powerful items and to those who grind as they've got something better anyway.

At the same time, prevents an accumulation of grinded items adding up to the point of giving a too big advantage to the grinders and also the overall grinding necessary for a new player willing to grind.

This is why the accumulation of bound AC loot is bad.

If you're fine with rangers equaling the dps of barbs, than your concept of balance is different than mine.

Rangers aren't equal to barbarians. They're simply close enough for their other bonus/drawback to make a balance between the two classes.

Barbs top, Rangers noticably less, Palis very close to if a bit less than rangers. That's my expectation of the DPS output from the three melee classes based on playing D&D for far too long.

That's totally inaccurate. You seem to think paladins are S&B. Well, let me tell you what, there is no basis to that. However, there is a very solid basis in the fact that rangers can TwF very easily!! There is way a ranger can be close to a paladin's DPS for as long as Turbine will not accept the fact that there is nothing written in D&D books saying that paladins should be most efficient with a shield. AC is not one of their asset. The only reason we're seeing that moronic argument is because of the made up Aura of Good in DDO.

In D&D, every class has strong points for AC in a way or another. And if you want to powergamer a crazy AC of death, you don't go paladin at all.

Maybe that your expectation of the DPS output in D&D is different than this, but what you're talking about is not a representative sample, which is normal unless you have played with skilled powergamers.

Healing class?

You know, I'll just drop it. It'll lead no where anyway. Let's just agree to disagree.

[Borror0]

Resistance
Lesser Restore
Divine Favor
Bless
Angel Skin
Resist Energy
Prayer
Cure Serious
Holy Sword
Death Ward
Neutralize Poison
Restoration

First, thank you for listing them. It's a pain to get people to back up their arguments nowaday.
I'll classify them if you have no objection.

Potions:

• Bless (As to cure Bane)
• Lesser Restoration
• Neutralize Poison

Those are to be overlooked as anyone can have them.

• Defensive:
  If you remember, that is about discussion on how spells make them a defensive class.
  
  • Scrolled:
    
    • Restoration - Really nice, I hate to not be able to UMD it on Borror.
    
    
  • Other classes:
    
    • Deathward - Clerics always carry Deathward, Mass due to the lack of good level 8 spells.
    • Resist Energy
    
    
  • Worthy to mention:
    • Angelskin - Is it still bugged?
    • Cure Serious Wounds - But you've got to spec for it. Anti-synergetic with CE.
    • Prayer - Debuff, while clerics got it, it's rarer they carry it.

Holy Sword and Divine Favor are offensive spells, Resistance is the crappiest spell in the game. Who doesn't have a +2 Resistance item?!

They've got nothing that stands out as a unique and defensive spell besides Angelskin. They need more if you want them to be a defensive class at end game.

[SteeleTrueheart]

From the Stratics Chat:

Eladrin - I will answer all of the questions myself! Prestige enhancements are planned for fighters and paladins. Before that, however, the melee classes (especially fighters) will be glad to see an array of tactical feats made available to them.

So Prestige enhancements may not even make Mod 8 if we are getting tactical feats before PrE's unless tactical feats come in an update (unlikely).

zigzag - *Gforged* There was mention of a Holy Avenger in the works. How will this be implemented? I'm sure pure-class (an mostly pure) Paladins will hate to see their personal weapon in the hands of 2 Rogue/10 Ranger/4 Paladin multi-class character.
Eladrin - A Holy Avenger's a special thing. You can't just hand them out to everyone.
Eladrin - I expect that a certain level of dedication will be required, and perhaps a task or two to prove your worth.
Eladrin - Not the pirate quest.
Django - Oh... I was wondering about that

Hmm sounds interesting and more grinding than luck of the end reward loot list.... we shall see.

zigzag - *gyr* Is drinking a potion supposed to dump you out of combat expertise or is this just a bug? if so, when will it be fixed?
Eladrin - It's not intended that Combat Expertise drop after using potions (or monk finishers).
Eladrin - We're looking at various solutions including changing the basic nature of Combat Expertise.

CE changes... hmmm info to watch for our AC focused builds.

[Eladrin]

Things that are currently being worked on also include:

Zeal
Paladin 2
Duration: 1 minute. (Swift casting, like Close Wounds.)
Benefit: Grants the Paladin a +4 deflection bonus to armor class and increases their movement speed.

Lionheart
Paladin 1
Duration: 24 seconds plus 6 per caster level.
Benefit: Imbues a single ally with great bravery, making them immune to fear.

Stalwart Pact
Cleric 5, Paladin 4
Benefit: Grants the target 5 hit points for every 2 caster levels, a +2 luck bonus to saving throws, and damage reduction 5/Magic, if the target of the spell falls below 50% hit points.

Death Pact
Cleric 8
Benefit: You enter a pact with your deity that brings you back to life after you are slain. While under the effects of this spell and after the raise effect, your constitution is decreased by two and cannot be restored until you rest.
Material Component: Large Diamond, available at spell shops.

[Borror0]

Things that are currently being worked on also include

So, you got tired of waiting, eh? I was worknig on a thread right now...

Anyway, I'll repost my feedback.

Zeal
Paladin 2
Duration: 1 minute. (Swift casting, like Close Wounds.)
Benefit: Grants the Paladin a +4 deflection bonus to armor class and increases their movement speed.

What's the increased percentage? Thinking of making it a little longer? Seems a little too short right now.

Given the new raid armors like the Fullplate of the Defenders, this looks quite weak too.

Lionheart
Paladin 1
Duration: 24 seconds plus 6 per caster level.
Benefit: Imbues a single ally with great bravery, making them immune to fear.

That is very weak, you are awared of that?

Stalwart Pact
Cleric 5, Paladin 4
Benefit: Grants the target 5 hit points for every 2 caster levels, a +2 luck bonus to saving throws, and damage reduction 5/Magic, if the target of the spell falls below 50% hit points.

WotC let you give it to paladins? I mean, it's a cleric spell.

Right now, it's rather weak. 40 HP is meh given the overly present healing in DDO. At 200 HP, a character isn't in a critical state. DR/magic isn't much good past.. STK? Something like that. And, well, the +2 Luck bonus is nice but paladins don't need any saves so that will be a buff for others... and it doesn't stack with Recitation.

I'd be alright with it if it gets more bonuses to make it a little better.

Potentialy interesting, if properly modified.. but the current version is rather weak.
I like the idea of saving under X%, but this isn't a good translation of the spell into DDO.

[Luthen]

Things that are currently being worked on also include:

Zeal
Paladin 2
Duration: 1 minute. (Swift casting, like Close Wounds.)
Benefit: Grants the Paladin a +4 deflection bonus to armor class and increases their movement speed.

Umm... not many, if ANY, players don't already have Prot 4. Lower level access is decent though. Still minimal use of this spell unless it scales with level.

Lionheart
Paladin 1
Duration: 24 seconds plus 6 per caster level.
Benefit: Imbues a single ally with great bravery, making them immune to fear.

Umm... Mass Remove Fear anyone? Blah!! May give immunity but such a limited use here again.

Stalwart Pact
Cleric 5, Paladin 4
Benefit: Grants the target 5 hit points for every 2 caster levels, a +2 luck bonus to saving throws, and damage reduction 5/Magic, if the target of the spell falls below 50% hit points.

So what is it? All the listed bonuses but only below 50% hp OR all but the DR 5/magic until below 50%? If the 2nd one then this is pretty sweet.

Death Pact
Cleric 8
Benefit: You enter a pact with your deity that brings you back to life after you are slain. While under the effects of this spell and after the raise effect, your constitution is decreased by two and cannot be restored until you rest.
Material Component: Large Diamond, available at spell shops.

My only concern with this spell is can it be dispelled by a Beholder or Break Enchantment type effects? If so this isn't as useful as it seems. Still nice though.

[Borror0]

So what is it? All the listed bonuses but only below 50% hp OR all but the DR 5/magic until below 50%? If the 2nd one then this is pretty sweet.

Everything triggers at 50% health, at least per PnP rules.

Btw, DR/magic is overcomed by anything at end game, but maybe animals.

[Yaga_Nub]

Things that are currently being worked on also include:

Zeal
Paladin 2
Duration: 1 minute. (Swift casting, like Close Wounds.)
Benefit: Grants the Paladin a +4 deflection bonus to armor class and increases their movement speed.

1 minute won't cut it. Make it 3 and change the +4 deflection bonus to a divine bonus or profane.

Lionheart
Paladin 1
Duration: 24 seconds plus 6 per caster level.
Benefit: Imbues a single ally with great bravery, making them immune to fear.

Again, seconds won't cut it. Make it 1 min/level.

Stalwart Pact
Cleric 5, Paladin 4
Benefit: Grants the target 5 hit points for every 2 caster levels, a +2 luck bonus to saving throws, and damage reduction 5/Magic, if the target of the spell falls below 50% hit points.

5 hit points/2 caster levels with no max, +2 divine or profane bonus to savings throws and dr 5/-. Duration maybe 1 minute plus 6 secs per caster level.

Death Pact
Cleric 8
Benefit: You enter a pact with your deity that brings you back to life after you are slain. While under the effects of this spell and after the raise effect, your constitution is decreased by two and cannot be restored until you rest.
Material Component: Large Diamond, available at spell shops.

Death Pact needs to negate the death penalty when it goes off.

[PhoenixFire31]

You do realize that these are lower level spells right? When you gain access to them you don't HAVE a prot 4 item you can wear, or immunity to fear. Stop thinking of all these spells in accordance with your capped characters only and think of new players/new characters rolled who can use them. Yes it would be nice if they were divine bonus' ect, but a level 1 spell is NOT always going to be useful all the way to level 16+.

[Borror0]

You do realize that these are lower level spells right?

Right, but paladins are very solid... until level 12...

This issue isn't at lower levels, Eldrin knows that already. So, why does he implement the poorest spells in the whole Spell Compendium...

[sigtrent]

You do realize that these are lower level spells right? When you gain access to them you don't HAVE a prot 4 item you can wear, or immunity to fear. Stop thinking of all these spells in accordance with your capped characters only and think of new players/new characters rolled who can use them. Yes it would be nice if they were divine bonus' ect, but a level 1 spell is NOT always going to be useful all the way to level 16+.

For lower level characters some of them are pretty decent. But most of the people who want paladin to get some "love" are interested in the weakness of high level paladins, specificaly thier abbility to deal damage or the usefullness of thier defensive abbilities.

None of those spells really address their concerns or would likely replace existing spells they currently memorize (paladins have very limited spell slots).

Death Pact is very intersting but its a cleric only spell apparently.

[Yaga_Nub]

You do realize that these are lower level spells right? When you gain access to them you don't HAVE a prot 4 item you can wear, or immunity to fear. Stop thinking of all these spells in accordance with your capped characters only and think of new players/new characters rolled who can use them. Yes it would be nice if they were divine bonus' ect, but a level 1 spell is NOT always going to be useful all the way to level 16+.

Paladin 2 means an 8th level Paladin can cast them. The spell should be useful for the life of a paladin not just for 1 level when they pick up the RR +4 protection item. They they get immunity to fear at paladin level 3 while they could cast Lionheart at level 4. Plus Lionheart is a target spell not a self spell.

[Angelus_dead]

Zeal
Paladin 2
Duration: 1 minute. (Swift casting, like Close Wounds.)
Benefit: Grants the Paladin a +4 deflection bonus to armor class and increases their movement speed.

Good for lowbies, but not helpful to paladin levels 12-16, which need the most help.

Lionheart
Paladin 1
Duration: 24 seconds plus 6 per caster level.
Benefit: Imbues a single ally with great bravery, making them immune to fear.

With the low duration, it will only be good if it also dispels pre-existing Fear effects. It's a matter of economy of user-input actions, and making this single target spell sufficiently superior to the Remove Fear (which is mass).

Stalwart Pact
Cleric 5, Paladin 4
Benefit: Grants the target 5 hit points for every 2 caster levels, a +2 luck bonus to saving throws, and damage reduction 5/Magic, if the target of the spell falls below 50% hit points.

By the time a paladin is of a level to actually cast level 4 spells, creatures with non-magical attacks will rarely count as an important threat. I forsee the main use to be as a self-save buff so you can use a trinket aside from the Head of Good Fortune. I suggest improving it in some way, such as increasing the DR to 10 at under 25% hp.

Death Pact
Cleric 8
Benefit: You enter a pact with your deity that brings you back to life after you are slain. While under the effects of this spell and after the raise effect, your constitution is decreased by two and cannot be restored until you rest.
Material Component: Large Diamond, available at spell shops.

I mentioned that a long time ago, and it's pretty hilarious. I assume you're going to be careful adding this spell, because it could lead to some weird semi-exploitive interactions with quest scripting.

For example, suppose I'm standing on top of a certain pillar in Ascension Chamber and asteroids are flying at me. I cast Death Pact and then equip two Green Steel accessories to suicide. After the bombardment is over, I accept the rez and return to victory. (For that specific case, I assume the duration of bombardment is longer than the raise expiration. But similar problems may arise elsewhere)

[Angelus_dead]

You do realize that these are lower level spells right? When you gain access to them you don't HAVE a prot 4 item you can wear, or immunity to fear. Stop thinking of all these spells in accordance with your capped characters only and think of new players/new characters rolled who can use them.

You do realize that paladins at levels 1-11 are not a weak class, right? It's only the higher levels of paladin that need improvement so that there are some sensible reasons to stay with the class.

[Mhykke]

Things that are currently being worked on also include:

Zeal
Paladin 2
Duration: 1 minute. (Swift casting, like Close Wounds.)
Benefit: Grants the Paladin a +4 deflection bonus to armor class and increases their movement speed.

Lionheart
Paladin 1
Duration: 24 seconds plus 6 per caster level.
Benefit: Imbues a single ally with great bravery, making them immune to fear.

Stalwart Pact
Cleric 5, Paladin 4
Benefit: Grants the target 5 hit points for every 2 caster levels, a +2 luck bonus to saving throws, and damage reduction 5/Magic, if the target of the spell falls below 50% hit points.

Death Pact
Cleric 8
Benefit: You enter a pact with your deity that brings you back to life after you are slain. While under the effects of this spell and after the raise effect, your constitution is decreased by two and cannot be restored until you rest.
Material Component: Large Diamond, available at spell shops.

Sigh.

[Eladrin]

With the low duration, it will only be good if it also dispels pre-existing Fear effects. It's a matter of economy of user-input actions, and making this single target spell sufficiently superior to the Remove Fear (which is mass).

We're planning for Lionheart to dispel existing fear effects.

[Angelus_dead]

We're planning for Lionheart to dispel existing fear effects.

I suggest you invent Mass Lionheart, level 3 or 4. Some love for higher-levels of Paladin.