The Dog House

[Turial]

You mean you are making barbarians smarter than Crimson Foot spiders? I guess the poor spiders will be delegated the "stupidest critter" award soon.

*Sighs*

(for those not aware, crimson foot spiders have an INT of 1)

Whats even scarier is that some of them are casters. Granted they may be wis or cha based casters. But still scary.

[Boulderun]

I hope this applies to madstone rage and remove paralysis potions as well.

[Missing_Minds]

First of all, I didn't say how much less, it could be 101 shots for a repeater/100 swings of a melee weapon/99 shots from a bow. I did put out some numbers as a suggested place to start. I am well aware that the current rate of fire for bows is about half of melee. My first numbers put it at 85% of melee a significant boost.

I don't think you are really following what I am saying. My attack rates are not what they are today that I listed. They are much higher for bows as well as thrown.

Your to hit arguement makes very little sense. It is easy to max dex and still hit 20-24 strength and elfs have racial enhancements to bows which do not exist for repeaters. If your bow Ranger is only hitting 1 out of 10 well.....

The bottom line is bows in general are more powerful than repeaters which I tried to balance by making repeaters slightly faster. You cannot in an MMO with pathing/safe spots/bad AI give bows the same damage output as melee, or repeaters for that matter. That is the balance I refer to.

Of course it is not balanced now that is why I increased the ROF of bows from 50% to 85%.

Your form of balancing is assuming all players are going to play elves, have +6 gear, and twinked out to all get out. This penalizes players, and really hurts new comers to the game.

My form of balancing is based on base weapons only.

Longbow d8 x3 on 20
heavy crossbow d8 (or is it d10?) x2 on 19-20
heavy repeater, same as heavy crossbow.

At low levels, heavy repeaters out do bow and xbow. At high levels a bow does not out do a repeater. 1d8+ 2 or 3 str, or 3d8. Which is better damage for the same time frame?

A bow is NOT more powerful than a repeater. That is the bottom line. Any character can be twinked to make it more powerful than base, but have a look. The character geared themself to be that way.

Slso, have you done any actual testing yet with the changes to ranged attack? If so, lets see the data please. I know I have not done any timing myself nor have I seen any one post gathered data. The only timing I've seen done so far has been melee.

[Mad_Bombardier]

At low levels, heavy repeaters out do bow and xbow. At high levels a bow does not out do a repeater. 1d8+ 2 or 3 str, or 3d8. Which is better damage for the same time frame?

A bow is NOT more powerful than a repeater. That is the bottom line. Any character can be twinked to make it more powerful than base, but have a look. The character geared themself to be that way.

A bow should "out do" a repeater at high levels. Bows take years to master, Repeaters can be used by any Joe Schmoe with 2 hands. And that was the old model. Repeater RoF capped early on, so it was a huge boost for L1-6. Then at L7+, repeaters were less desirable. This new model with Repeaters scaling higher than 1H melee (and double the RoF of bows/crossbows/thrown) is ridiculous.

Side Note: I really liked the old system. Repeaters should, for the most part, be static Rate of Fire; increasable with 2 feats. One for faster target acquisition (Rapid Shot), one for faster reloading of a new magazine (Rapid Reload). But, the bolts can only fall from the magazine into the crossbow at the speed of gravity and the mechanized reload can only work so fast. So, RoF should not change with BAB.

[EinarMal]

A bow should "out do" a repeater at high levels. Bows take years to master, Repeaters can be used by any Joe Schmoe with 2 hands. And that was the old model. Repeater RoF capped early on, so it was a huge boost for L1-6. Then at L7+, repeaters were less desirable. This new model with Repeaters scaling higher than 1H melee (and double the RoF of bows/crossbows/thrown) is ridiculous.

Side Note: I really liked the old system. Repeaters should, for the most part, be static Rate of Fire; increasable with 2 feats. One for faster target acquisition (Rapid Shot), one for faster reloading of a new magazine (Rapid Reload). But, the bolts can only fall from the magazine into the crossbow at the speed of gravity and the mechanized reload can only work so fast. So, RoF should not change with BAB.

A repeater requires the prof feat, rapid shot, rapid reload, and IC Ranged plus you could take other feats as well. That is a considerable investment that is comparable to someone who uses a bow. So, no I reject your OPINION that bow should out do a repeater at high level, and again I couldn't care less about real life arguements about bow mastery versus firing a repeating crossbow. It's a game and should be balanced as such.

Either fighting with a repeater, thrown weapons, and bows are viable alternatives to melee from 1-20 or they are worthless. If you want to make the game more interesting for different people to play then they should all scale appropriately so they are viable forms of fighting at all levels.

[EinarMal]

Your form of balancing is assuming all players are going to play elves, have +6 gear, and twinked out to all get out. This penalizes players, and really hurts new comers to the game.

My form of balancing is based on base weapons only.

Longbow d8 x3 on 20
heavy crossbow d8 (or is it d10?) x2 on 19-20
heavy repeater, same as heavy crossbow.

At low levels, heavy repeaters out do bow and xbow. At high levels a bow does not out do a repeater. 1d8+ 2 or 3 str, or 3d8. Which is better damage for the same time frame?

A bow is NOT more powerful than a repeater. That is the bottom line. Any character can be twinked to make it more powerful than base, but have a look. The character geared themself to be that way.

Slso, have you done any actual testing yet with the changes to ranged attack? If so, lets see the data please. I know I have not done any timing myself nor have I seen any one post gathered data. The only timing I've seen done so far has been melee.

Only +2 or +3 from strength are you serious? Forget what the game does now I already showed you the numbers to make them even assuming a +7 strength mod which is hardly unfair.

There are no changes to rate of fire for bows that has also been said already, it is about 50% of melee speed.

At a minimum repeating crossbows, thrown weapons, and bows should be about 85% of melee speed, depending on how balancing goes. I personally think that repeaters would need a little more boost than that given more feats affect bows, more enhancements affect bows, and strength affects bows. To ignore that is silly...

[villainsimple]

SLOW IS BROKEN: The undead are not affected by the spell "Slow".

There's nothing that i saw under the description of the undead that would negate slowness.

The closest was immunity to fatigue and exhaustion, and immunity to paralisys.

Slow is neither fatigue, exhaustion, or a form of paralysis.

It's a transmutation effect, and requires a Will save.

[DeadlyGazebo]

SLOW IS BROKEN: The undead are not affected by the spell "Slow".

There's nothing that i saw under the description of the undead that would negate slowness.

The closest was immunity to fatigue and exhaustion, and immunity to paralisys.

Slow is neither fatigue, exhaustion, or a form of paralysis.

It's a transmutation effect, and requires a Will save.

Slow is considered a paralysis effect. I find this a little odd (you're slow because you are a tiny bit paralyzed?), but that is why they are immune to it (and you can get items/effects of immunity to paralysis and become immune too.)

[EspyLacopa]

Slow is considered a paralysis effect. I find this a little odd (you're slow because you are a tiny bit paralyzed?), but that is why they are immune to it (and you can get items/effects of immunity to paralysis and become immune too.)

Gazebo, why is Slow a paralysis effect? It certainly isn't in PnP.

Slow

Transmutation

Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: One creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
An affected creature moves and attacks at a drastically slowed rate. A slowed creature can take only a single move action or standard action each turn, but not both (nor may it take full-round actions). Additionally, it takes a -1 penalty on attack rolls, AC, and Reflex saves. A slowed creature moves at half its normal speed (round down to the next 5-foot increment), which affects the creature’s jumping distance as normal for decreased speed.
Multiple slow effects don’t stack. Slow counters and dispels haste.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Slow is considered a paralysis effect. I find this a little odd (you're slow because you are a tiny bit paralyzed?), but that is why they are immune to it (and you can get items/effects of immunity to paralysis and become immune too.)

Gazebo, why is Slow a paralysis effect? It certainly isn't in PnP.

Also confused. Slow is a transmutation and is primarily countered by Haste, another transmutation. Just because it has the added benefit of also being removed by Remove Paralysis doesn't mean it's a paralysis effect (magical paralysis is often an enchantment or necromancy). Remove Paralysis even says, "or related magic, including a Ghoul's Touch or a Slow spell."

[Vienemen]

Gazebo, why is Slow a paralysis effect? It certainly isn't in PnP.

EspyLacopa is certainly correct.

[Impaqt]

Gazebo, why is Slow a paralysis effect? It certainly isn't in PnP.

Because it was Easier to Code that way?

[Aesop]

EspyLacopa is certainly correct.

please don't feed the ego... even though he is correct



Aesop

[DeadlyGazebo]

Also confused. Slow is a transmutation and is primarily countered by Haste, another transmutation. Just because it has the added benefit of also being removed by Remove Paralysis doesn't mean it's a paralysis effect (magical paralysis is often an enchantment or necromancy). Remove Paralysis even says, "or related magic, including a Ghoul's Touch or a Slow spell."

Luckily, Eladrin is still in the office to ask (I implement this stuff, but he makes the decisions as to what is the "right" thing to implement, or at least was around when those decisions got made). He explained that since remove paralysis explicitly removes paralysis "or related magic, including ... a slow spell", that slow is "related" to paralysis, and thus things that make you immune to paralysis should also make you immune to slow.

I'm certainly not going to claim this is obvious or anything -- it's more that we need to draw the line somewhere on all the special cases that abound in the PnP rules, so at some point, if it quacks like a duck, we just start treating it like a duck. So, slow is cured by remove paralysis, and by analogy you are immune to it if you are immune to paralysis, so poof, it's in the "paralysis" bucket, and I start answering questions about it with "yep, it's in the paralysis category".

[Aspenor]

Luckily, Eladrin is still in the office to ask (I implement this stuff, but he makes the decisions as to what is the "right" thing to implement, or at least was around when those decisions got made). He explained that since remove paralysis explicitly removes paralysis "or related magic, including ... a slow spell", that slow is "related" to paralysis, and thus things that make you immune to paralysis should also make you immune to slow.

I'm certainly not going to claim this is obvious or anything -- it's more that we need to draw the line somewhere on all the special cases that abound in the PnP rules, so at some point, if it quacks like a duck, we just start treating it like a duck. So, slow is cured by remove paralysis, and by analogy you are immune to it if you are immune to paralysis, so poof, it's in the "paralysis" bucket, and I start answering questions about it with "yep, it's in the paralysis category".

Tell Eladrin I want a bagel.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Wow, I just went back to check the spreadsheet and there are a LOT of edits by both Codog and DeadlyGazebo in the new Spreadsheet! I apologize for not paying attention to it, as I have been working with the DDO Wiki team recently, and the new crafting stuff has been driving me nutz!

I don't have a detailed list of the changes yet, but I will try to post them on Monday.
In the interim, I have updated all the Dev Comments so the old ones are in BLUE, and all the new comments are in RED.

Some great new stuff in there... I guess now that Mod 6 is out, there is time for more feedback. This also means that next week I will need to do some massive updates, as I kinda stopped updating the sheet a few weeks ago (sorry again). But I'll get the major points into the spreadsheet next week (I work on it at work!)

Anyways, just thought I'd let everyone know, and here's the link again: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...InZyyID3g553Mg

[Vienemen]

Luckily, Eladrin is still in the office to ask (I implement this stuff, but he makes the decisions as to what is the "right" thing to implement, or at least was around when those decisions got made). He explained that since remove paralysis explicitly removes paralysis "or related magic, including ... a slow spell", that slow is "related" to paralysis, and thus things that make you immune to paralysis should also make you immune to slow.

I'm certainly not going to claim this is obvious or anything -- it's more that we need to draw the line somewhere on all the special cases that abound in the PnP rules, so at some point, if it quacks like a duck, we just start treating it like a duck. So, slow is cured by remove paralysis, and by analogy you are immune to it if you are immune to paralysis, so poof, it's in the "paralysis" bucket, and I start answering questions about it with "yep, it's in the paralysis category".

Before jumping the gun, how big of a change would this actually end up being if it was to be changed? Cause quite frankly, if it is a huge investment, I would rather you all doin something more constructive...even if it isnt a paralysis.

I dont expect an answer but will assume this would take significant time to do and would rather move on to more constructive fixes.

[EspyLacopa]

Also confused. Slow is a transmutation and is primarily countered by Haste, another transmutation. Just because it has the added benefit of also being removed by Remove Paralysis doesn't mean it's a paralysis effect (magical paralysis is often an enchantment or necromancy). Remove Paralysis even says, "or related magic, including a Ghoul's Touch or a Slow spell."

You forgot the rest of the sentence.

You can free one or more creatures from the effects of any temporary paralysis or related magic, including a ghoul's touch or a slow spell.

[Invalid_86]

Yeah this one is quacking a whole lot like a Transmutation that undead shouldn't be immune to.

Using this logic Freedom of Movement also protects against paralysis, Slow, and Web spells. Does that mean Undead should now be immune to Web spells? Of course not!

[villainsimple]

Luckily, Eladrin is still in the office to ask (I implement this stuff, but he makes the decisions as to what is the "right" thing to implement, or at least was around when those decisions got made). He explained that since remove paralysis explicitly removes paralysis "or related magic, including ... a slow spell", that slow is "related" to paralysis, and thus things that make you immune to paralysis should also make you immune to slow.

I'm certainly not going to claim this is obvious or anything -- it's more that we need to draw the line somewhere on all the special cases that abound in the PnP rules, so at some point, if it quacks like a duck, we just start treating it like a duck. So, slow is cured by remove paralysis, and by analogy you are immune to it if you are immune to paralysis, so poof, it's in the "paralysis" bucket, and I start answering questions about it with "yep, it's in the paralysis category".

This needs to be undone. Slow is no more a paralysis effect than haste is an anti paralysis affect. Haste does not counter any paralysis effect save for slow. However, slow is countered by anti paralsysis effects.

See how it just don't fit?

In this case, you'd do well to repeal the rule on this and make it a non paralysis effect.