Permanent Item Damage and Death Penalty changes

[Mercules]

and for some it is less so , and this is the current dilemna who to please

It won't be everyone. How about going with "What ticks off the least amount of people?" and I hate to say it, but there were a lot of people in favor of changing the current XP penalty and who thought the proposed death penalty was desirable, at least as many as those who are against the proposal. I like the idea of a scaling penalty to items similar to the scaling ability penalty. 2% the first time, scaling up to 10% per death after the first. There are always those unavoidable deaths in DDO so the first one shouldn't be too harash(and 10% seemed a bit harsh) but constantly dying in a single quest between shrine visits should have some form of sting, even for capped characters.

[Mercules]

And for many people a punitive approach like the one suggested means the game will be less fun.

Penalty:

1. a punishment imposed or incurred for a violation of law or rule.
2. a loss, forfeiture, suffering, or the like, to which one subjects oneself by nonfulfillment of some obligation.
3. something that is forfeited, as a sum of money.
4. a disadvantage imposed upon one of the competitors or upon one side for infraction of the rules of a game, sport, etc.
5. consequence or disadvantage attached to any action, condition, etc.

Yeah... I can't imagine a Death Penalty would be punitive.

[Ciaran]

So the bottom line is people are really worried about item damage more than the removal of the xp loss. Thats what I am hearing.

Well the hardiness is a great idea. Adamantium should be more durable. I agree.

People can say the system wasn't broke as is. They can say that, and those that say it are the current loyal customers. Your not seeing the big picture that this game must have an influx of new players and a good start is to eliminate the top negative feedback producer which was the xp penalty according to the new players.

Its amazing to hear "The only people complaining are the former WOW players who came here and left...." I would love to have all the former WOW players come here and stay. WOW has like 4 million subs. Even a fraction of that came here that would be a big deal for the DDO circle.

So implement a system that reduces or removes the penalty for new players for a set period of time, don't target experienced players who are loyal customers.

[Yaga_Nub]

I'm currently also looking at a way of integrating item hardness into the formula.

+5 Adamantine armor should indeed be sturdy.

As I stated in another post, I completely disagree with this and I thought of another reason why -

If I'm a god in DDO Eberron and I decided that everyone who dies also gets damage to their equipment I'd be pretty peeved that some developer came in and tried to muck up my universal decree by making it so that a mortal material could resist my divine power.

Sorry, just a silly thought that I had.

[Ciaran]

It won't be everyone. How about going with "What ticks off the least amount of people?" and I hate to say it, but there were a lot of people in favor of changing the current XP penalty and who thought the proposed death penalty was desirable, at least as many as those who are against the proposal. I like the idea of a scaling penalty to items similar to the scaling ability penalty. 2% the first time, scaling up to 10% per death after the first. There are always those unavoidable deaths in DDO so the first one shouldn't be too harash(and 10% seemed a bit harsh) but constantly dying in a single quest between shrine visits should have some form of sting, even for capped characters.

Agreed. If they are going to go forward with this system, they need to scale down the penalty for the first death and so on. If I die more than three or four times in a quest, chances are I'm close to saying screw it and doing it later or doing another quest, in which case my items, though they have taken damage can be repaired before moving on as I'd be doing this anyway.

People also aren't remembering to factor in that items take damage during the course of a quest anyway. To have a 10% blanket percentage of item damage occur on death on top of that which never resets and/or doesn't cap means they wear out even faster. This is not the way to fix things.

[ccheath776]

Oh, and guess what? If you die enough in a quest enough to have to recall to repair or regain HP/SP you are getting dinged for XP when you re-enter. Why aren't you clamoring for the re-entry penalty to be done away with? You're still "permanently losing XP" you could have otherwise had....

Hold on, I agree with you on that part. I dont like the re-entry penalty either. I wouldnt mind that being removed but you can thank the goldfarmer for this mechanic more than anything. I actually dont like any aspect of xp penalties including the re-entry timers, the retry timers, and the power leveling. Because most are in place to stop the goldfarmers.

Your complaining that the xp debt should have been left in, I'm telling you it should not have and for XXX reasons not limited to new people having a real problem with it.
Your argument is you dont like the item damage.
What you dont realize is that I agree with you on your points. I dont like the item damage but I believe its better than the XP loss and I was trying to explain to you why by using examples, maybe it didn't come across correctly. regardless. You dont agree with that, you think xp loss is better.
Unfortunatly thats just an agree to disagree argument because there is about twelve sides to which is better.

I'm kind of getting the vibe that most of the arguments I am hearing are about item damage, and most are saying, forget the item damage and go back to the old way. I say Heck no.
We can work to improve or change the item damage but the xp loss should be gone forever, good riddance, dont let it hit you on the way out.
If people are upset about the item damage they shouldn't use that as a way to try to convince turbine to bring the xp penalties back. They should be saying, "I dont like the item damage, this is why, and here is an alternative..."

My beef is with the players who want to cling to the xp loss. I am telling you this change is a GOOD thing. The xp loss mechanic was a rising problem and it needed to be eliminated.

[ccheath776]

So implement a system that reduces or removes the penalty for new players for a set period of time, don't target experienced players who are loyal customers.

I dont agree thats a bait and switch tactic.
reel them in and then POW you got the major xp loss.

Xp loss should be eliminated entirely, and it is. If the argument is about item damage, then propose something different that doesn't involve XP loss because that mechanic is never coming back.

[Baron]

Let’s define the issues:

The problems-

1. Turbine tells us they are losing new players due to the current loss of experience points due to death. So said by Turbine employers in this forum. I am sure there is no disagreement on this one. Changing the experience point penalty for dying for lower levels will change that BY ITSELF. No need for item damage and you know what, looking at the table that’s what Turbine is doing. Lower level characters will see no ill effects to speak of for dying on either equipment or on the character in the dungeon. Image that. New players will have fun playing DDO.

2. Some people have complained that “Death Has No Meaning” for higher level characters and this produces undesirable, and by their measurements, undesirable behavior. There will be much disagreement on this one. So lets break this one down.

a. DDO is a game people pay to play TO HAVE FUN. The reason I came to this game was because it was not like the other MMO’s. I suspect most people playing the game like it as it is except new players (and this is being addressed) and “perma-death people who prefer to make the game harder for themselves and last those others folks who may or may not include perma-deathers who think dying in game “Should hurt more”. Never fear I have some solutions for people who want DDO more like real life or other MMOs, perma-deathers and those who just want to have fun without pain. Those solutions are:

i. For those who want to make DDO and death in it like other MMO’s, just go join those other MMO’s , we will miss you but, hey in the general server populations but maybe not in the forums, you are a minority, and DDO will not go out of business from the mass exodus of players who never read the forums and get blindsided by this. If you think I am wrong why do you remember those lines forming to go play with the Abbot and the minuses to stats? I don’t. If you are still here and want to hang around but still want you character death to be more painful that’s easy. Just do this:

1. Every time you die, just roll a /roll d14 and count clockwise start at your characters head and delete whatever is in that slot, no cheating now!

2. Now roll a /roll d1000 and delete that much plat from your character, again let’s be honest here, no rounding off to the nearest hundred plat.

3. Every 5th time you die go and remove one of your enhancements and do not replace it, we will be watching! You can bring it back when you level.

4. Every 10th time you die go talk to Fred the mind flayer and delete of your abilities and do not replace it, honesty is important here. You can bring it back when you level.

Now wasn’t that easy? No new coding, no mass angst among the vast majority of players who do not pay to feel pain?

ii. For those perma-death folks out there, I really appreciate the fact that most of you have come up with ways to do you thing without asking for stuff that would affect other players who do not play perma-death, I really mean that, all kidding aside. I know there may be a few of you in the above group but I do understand the difference between the two groups. Maybe Turbine can put a switch in player options that puts into effect most of the things you guys do.

iii. The third group consists of people who play DDO to have fun and do not want serious death effects. Anyone that thinks otherwise of the majority of players is being a little obtuse, read above on why DDO is losing new players and the fact that none of these “Death Bites” effects are going to hit new players every time they die. Most folk’s idea of fun does not include death being painful when it is those players will leave for greener pastures. Knocking the timer down on the effects will help and people may not leave in great numbers if the item damage is not tied in to the degree it is which bring me to the item damage thing.

3. ITEM DAMAGE FROM DEATH IS TOTALLY UNRELATED TO LOSING BEGINNING PLAYERS, Turbine simply wants to reduce the number of items people swapping items around between their characters and/or guild members and in general reduce the amount of equipment lying around. This has either been so stated or inferred from previous posts. I suspect there will not be much disagreement on this one except that some people think it is related to “Dying should hurt”. I would point out Turbine is making ‘Dying hurt less” for new players because it is losing many of them. Tell me Turbine, what do you think those same players are going to do when they get to higher level and the Dying should hurt” rules start going into effect? A slow adaption to disagreeable circumstances (scaling it in as a character advances) is not less painful or easier to adapt to, it just builds a longer lasting resentment that will just as surely lose those players with less chance of them coming back that Turbine has now. Turbine, tell me you had consultants on human behavior brought in instead of a general “Well everyone knows” kind of camp fire discussion, well didn’t you?

4. Let’s also get some things straight about the item damage. I was on Risa trying it out.

a. Permanent damage is permanent, period. Turbine is not going to change that, it’s silly to think they would.

b. All items equipped take damage, even bound items.

c. Bound items do not take permanent damage but they still take damage.

d. Bound items will not be able to be unbound.

e. Yes you can collect those shards up, you will need a lot, I have still not heard if throwing weapons, not the throw once and they are gone ones, but the real ones (that also do stack if you get two identical ones) will be repairable in MOD 6, and I would really like an answer to that. If that has not been fixed will they take damage when you die, if so all throwing weapons will be out of the game is a short matter of time as they will take damage and are not repairable, bound or not. A level 14 weapon that is race restricted or aligned will take 14x 14 shards or 15x15 shards, anyone know?

f. It’s all about forcing you to bind your equipment or lose it; Turbine wants more equipment out of circulation, either by binding or destroying it.

Interesting scenario: You are in a group of 4 members of a guild and 2 non-members, the thief and you the fighter. You go in to the end fight with 1 empty inventory slot due to getting some fine equipment in the chest and the guild 15th level Paladin used his one shot of Unyielding Sovereignty 7 minutes ago on another guild member. Which of the following events occur once the end fight begins?

A. Everyone in the party screams at the cleric to keep them healed over everyone else because death hurts so much more so the cleric heals his guild members second, after himself and the non-guild members last.

B. You get massive penalties from dying which leads you to die even easier when you are being raised because the thief throws what he can, which is raise dead and you immediately die again from one hit.

C. You get massive damage to equipment which causes it to fall off after the first 4 or 5 deaths because you did not recall earlier in the dungeon to repair, besides you had neither the plat or the relics to fix your gear.

D. You cannot equip anything else because all your inventory slots are full.

E. You cannot equip without throwing something away.

F. You cannot recall and come back, the dungeon is locked.

G. The cleric uses his Word of Recall to get out of Dodge.

H. You add another guild to your friends list and consider why you are still in a game that is no longer fun.

I. All of the above.

Last time I checked, Saturday about 7 pm EST thee was one group and about 15 to 18 people on Risa, that is about double what is usually on it, anyone still think it is a success as a test server, bring back accelerated xp there and we might get enough people there to actually make a impact.

[Prinstoni]

XP debt is better than item damage and anyone who syas different doesn't have the equipment that I spent 2 years searching for. Double or tripple xp debt is 500X better. Item damage is insane, and touch of dolurth effects could be potentially brutal in quests like the Reaver where there is always 5-6 people who get sucked up the middle). They will be taken out of the quest, nerfed when they go to loot, and that is just ********.

I will cancel my account if they implement this system. It is a stupid idea.

By the way the reason most people stopped using Risia is because the devs DO NOT LISTEN TO OUR SUGGESTIONS!

[Devilsdelight]

So the currently propossed Death system dosen't solve some problems.

Since the Item damage only effects equipped items, when people want to die to get past things they can un-equipp everything, and then die (Titan) (No item damage...then wait for 5mins)

The same is true for /death.

That said I don't really have a problem with the propossed system. I do like the progressive system Eldrian hinted he was in support of.
I really think that 10% damage is way too much, but I'm sure that will be come obivious.

[Ciaran]

Hold on, I agree with you on that part. I dont like the re-entry penalty either. I wouldnt mind that being removed but you can thank the goldfarmer for this mechanic more than anything. I actually dont like any aspect of xp penalties including the re-entry timers, the retry timers, and the power leveling. Because most are in place to stop the goldfarmers.

Your complaining that the xp debt should have been left in, I'm telling you it should not have and for XXX reasons not limited to new people having a real problem with it.
Your argument is you dont like the item damage.
What you dont realize is that I agree with you on your points. I dont like the item damage but I believe its better than the XP loss and I was trying to explain to you why by using examples, maybe it didn't come across correctly. regardless. You dont agree with that, you think xp loss is better.
Unfortunatly thats just an agree to disagree argument because there is about twelve sides to which is better.

I'm kind of getting the vibe that most of the arguments I am hearing are about item damage, and most are saying, forget the item damage and go back to the old way. I say Heck no.
We can work to improve or change the item damage but the xp loss should be gone forever, good riddance, dont let it hit you on the way out.
If people are upset about the item damage they shouldn't use that as a way to try to convince turbine to bring the xp penalties back. They should be saying, "I dont like the item damage, this is why, and here is an alternative..."

My beef is with the players who want to cling to the xp loss. I am telling you this change is a GOOD thing. The xp loss mechanic was a rising problem and it needed to be eliminated.

You misunderstand. I'm actually fine with the re-entry penalty, to an extent. It didn't use to be fair to casters, but that's why they did things like add shrines in VON5.

People, myself included are saying they don't like the item damage penalty, why they don't like it and suggesting alternatives. Some of those alternatives include mixing the Touch of Dolurrh penalty with XP loss, either as is or halved. Other alternatives, such as ones I've suggested, along with others, is to have the item damage scale and/or cap. I've said all of these things in other posts, so please don't tell me how I should be presenting my argument.

You still have yet to give me a convincing reason why XP debt is so bad besides "time lost" without proposing an idea that doesn't also fall under the "time lost" category. If you have as many reasons as you say surely you should have no problem coming up with more examples.

[ArkoHighStar]

It won't be everyone. How about going with "What ticks off the least amount of people?" and I hate to say it, but there were a lot of people in favor of changing the current XP penalty and who thought the proposed death penalty was desirable, at least as many as those who are against the proposal. I like the idea of a scaling penalty to items similar to the scaling ability penalty. 2% the first time, scaling up to 10% per death after the first. There are always those unavoidable deaths in DDO so the first one shouldn't be too harash(and 10% seemed a bit harsh) but constantly dying in a single quest between shrine visits should have some form of sting, even for capped characters.

which is why I proposed it, even though I think the item damage should go away altogether, if i am stuck with it I am going to at least try to make it tolerable

level 1-2 no death penalty
level 3 up
Normal
1st death death debuff 1 -2% item damage
2nd death death debuff 2 -4% item damage
3nd death death debuff 3 -6% item damage
Hard
1st death death debuff 1 -2% item damage
2nd death death debuff 2 -4% item damage
3nd death death debuff 3 -6% item damage
4th death death debuff 4 -8% item damage
Elite
1st death death debuff 1 -2% item damage
2nd death death debuff 2 -4% item damage
3nd death death debuff 3 -6% item damage
4th death death debuff 4 -8% item damage
5th death death debuff 5 -10% item damage

incorporate with field repair at shrine allowing you repair your items based on repair skill and a item repair kit(0-+5), that would based on the repair skill allow you to repair up to almost full repair leaving about 3% in all cases so you ahave to go to a vendor to repair after, but at a much reduced cost and a reduced chance at perm damage.

[moorewr]

Now, you have a really good point there. Power gamers -- one player strips, performs suicide tactic/cheese, gets raised, Cleric drops Unyielding Sovereignty on them and off they go none the worse for wear.

What to do about that?

So the currently propossed Death system dosen't solve some problems.

Since the Item damage only effects equipped items, when people want to die to get past things they can un-equipp everything, and then die (Titan) (No item damage...then wait for 5mins)

The same is true for /death.

That said I don't really have a problem with the propossed system. I do like the progressive system Eldrian hinted he was in support of.
I really think that 10% damage is way too much, but I'm sure that will be come obivious.

[Ciaran]

I dont agree thats a bait and switch tactic.
reel them in and then POW you got the major xp loss.

Xp loss should be eliminated entirely, and it is. If the argument is about item damage, then propose something different that doesn't involve XP loss because that mechanic is never coming back.

Um, if they make the player aware of this ahead of time then the player who enjoys the game and upgrades his account doesn't have a leg to stand on if they suddenly start taking XP loss when they die and get all up in arms about it. If you're told about something ahead of time and you continue to go through with it you forfeit any right to gripe when that which you were told about happens.

As I've already stated to you, I have been proposing alternatives that don't involve XP loss...mainly capping and/or scaling the percentage of damage (in other words revamping the proposed system but otherwise going forward with it).

It would be helpful if you realized that...

[Mercules]

Let’s define the issues:

So if I am summarizing your point correctly.

1. It eleviates the proclaimed issue new players have with the XP based Death Penalty.
2. It causes death to become a penalty for capped players.
3. It eliminates some of the excessive items from the game and creates a money sink this game needed to bring the platinum back in line?

I can definitely see the developers wanting this system. Despite the claim that it is the perma-deathers pushing for this(Death Penalty wouldn't affect them in either case), and perma-death wanna-be's, there are just as many in the game that believe it is too easy and good items are too easy to come by for the game to hold interest as there are those that like getting capped and then loot grinding with recalling for SPs and dying being a viable tactic to getting chests faster.

[Hendrik]

WOW...You would think with such strong opposition to this system (acccording to at least 50% of these posts), that the devs would consider wether or not they should be changing the system in this direction.

I am insulted...absolutely of the direction of this idea.

1) I think it is insane for us to be forced to either pay to bind items in order to avoid permanent damage to them
2) take permenent damage on rare randomly dropped items that we share between characters versus taking xp debt which can be recovered simply from running any quest

Why change a system that although may not be perfect is more in line with actual D&D rules. Most of us are here for the D&D.

I hate the idea and I will cancel my account if it is implemented!

Gonna be sad to see you go.

[Mercules]

XP debt is better than item damage and anyone who syas different doesn't have the equipment that I spent 2 years searching for. Double or tripple xp debt is 500X better. Item damage is insane, and touch of dolurth effects could be potentially brutal in quests like the Reaver where there is always 5-6 people who get sucked up the middle). They will be taken out of the quest, nerfed when they go to loot, and that is just ********.

I will cancel my account if they implement this system. It is a stupid idea.

By the way the reason most people stopped using Risia is because the devs DO NOT LISTEN TO OUR SUGGESTIONS!

I notice all your characters listed are capped... would this be why you wouldn't mind "Double of tripple xp debt is 500X better."?

[Hendrik]

Ran the Reaver last night. Had one of those instances where half the party was in 'detention'. One of the party members flew east and rescued all those that died. Right into the Reaver sending everyone to the ceiling. For those that haven't run Reaver yet, you are raised in the middle of the Reaver room, under the hole with all the sharp pointy sticks. Instant Death.

If that wasn't bad enough, we had the one that flew east had an itchy pull finger and well... up we went again to die.

So 1 death to get into detention, deaths 2 and 3 from a quick puller. That wasn't the end of it either. But an example of how quickly deaths can rack up in the Reaver when things go wrong.

Add the touch of dolurthh penalty and the item damage.... not fun.

This is one reason why I don't agree with the generic every item equipped is damaged penalty.

I don't mind changes. I can adapt. But 'death' happens. I don't play permadeath because unfortunate things happen and you die. Sometimes it is because someone 'zergs' ahead, sometimes it is a random 1 shot death. I can only control my character. I don't like 'blanket' penalties like what is planned.

Your Reaver example specifically will be addressed as to avoid that very situation.

[Mercules]

which is why I proposed it, even though I think the item damage should go away altogether, if i am stuck with it I am going to at least try to make it tolerable

level 1-2 no death penalty
level 3 up
Normal
1st death death debuff 1 -2% item damage
2nd death death debuff 2 -4% item damage
3nd death death debuff 3 -6% item damage
Hard
1st death death debuff 1 -2% item damage
2nd death death debuff 2 -4% item damage
3nd death death debuff 3 -6% item damage
4th death death debuff 4 -8% item damage
Elite
1st death death debuff 1 -2% item damage
2nd death death debuff 2 -4% item damage
3nd death death debuff 3 -6% item damage
4th death death debuff 4 -8% item damage
5th death death debuff 5 -10% item damage

incorporate with field repair at shrine allowing you repair your items based on repair skill and a item repair kit(0-+5), that would based on the repair skill allow you to repair up to almost full repair leaving about 3% in all cases so you ahave to go to a vendor to repair after, but at a much reduced cost and a reduced chance at perm damage.

All for having it scaling and for having the repair skill and enhancements be useful. I just don't think the current system is effective at what it was meant to be. It's too penalizing for new players and not penalizing at all for capped players. I really like your ideas.

[Ciaran]

So if I am summarizing your point correctly.

1. It eleviates the proclaimed issue new players have with the XP based Death Penalty.
2. It causes death to become a penalty for capped players.
3. It eliminates some of the excessive items from the game and creates a money sink this game needed to bring the platinum back in line?

I can definitely see the developers wanting this system. Despite the claim that it is the perma-deathers pushing for this(Death Penalty wouldn't affect them in either case), and perma-death wanna-be's, there are just as many in the game that believe it is too easy and good items are too easy to come by for the game to hold interest as there are those that like getting capped and then loot grinding with recalling for SPs and dying being a viable tactic to getting chests faster.

So what? That's their right as paying customers. Can you give me a real example of how this has directly or indirectly negatively impacted you? What does it matter of people who loot run recall 5 times for mana to get to loot faster? That's their choice to play that way and it was Turbine's choice to have as many +1 loot weekends and powerful gear released into the game as they did.

For the record I don't like dying or using it as a tactic. I also would rather run new characters through old content or repeat favorite quests of mine with my capped characters than loot run. Sure, the occassional loot run is fun and gets some cash, but I really don't see what the problem is.

How can you say the game is too easy when the Abbot is for the most part unbeatable, just as the Titan was? How can you say it's too easy where only specialized builds can get high enough AC to avoid getting hit, or have to be built to get enough HP to take several hard hits from mobs? New content is always hard when it first comes out. Since it's the first breath of fresh stuff to come in a while, the way updates have been going these days, people hit it hard and heavy, figure it out and it becomes easier.

Finally, how is this system going to remove the influx of items? Those items are going to continue to drop in chests, and people are going to continue to farm quests with little to no risk of death to get them. Existing items are going to take LESS permanent damage than they currently do, even though they might get damaged more often. All it takes to get around that is keeping a few masterwork items in your inventory to switch to quickly before you die if you can catch it in time. I sincerely doubt this will change the economy.

Sorry, I just don't see how this system is the magic fix to the game's economy and the "cheap and cheesy" playstyles you mention. I also don't see how it's any concern of yours unless you can provide me an example of how it's affecting your enjoyment of the game...or are we just arguing on principle here?