Negative levels don't add up

[ChaosTheEternal]

He actually has (I would have to assume) between 9 and 11 negative levels in that screenshot. Not 7 (as you previously mentioned).

12 Barb has a base +4 Will (2 Ftr has base 0), he shows a +0 for Wisdom, so:
4 (base) - 18 (9 neg levels) = -14
4 (base) + 2 (resistance) - 20 (10 neg levels) = -14
4 (base) + 4 (resistance) - 22 (11 neg levels) = -14

[Spookydodger]

Is that what the in-game description says? What's it say when you hover over the negative level icon?

The negative level modifier doesn't give you any specifics. It just says you take a penalty to skills, saves, hitpoints, attacks, yada yada.

[ChaosTheEternal]

Is that what the in-game description says? What's it say when you hover over the negative level icon?

The negative level modifier doesn't give you any specifics. It just says you take a penalty to skills, saves, hitpoints, attacks, yada yada.

In the Enervation spell description, as per the Compendium:

Each negative level gives a creature a -1 penalty on attack rolls, saves, skill checks, ability checks, and effective level. Negative levels stack.

So, yes, there is a source from them that says it should only be -1 per negative level, not -2.

EDIT: And the in-game description matches the Compendium.

[Spookydodger]

In the Enervation spell description, as per the Compendium:

So, yes, there is a source from them that says it should only be -1 per negative level, not -2.

EDIT: And the in-game description matches the Compendium.

Assuming the Enervation we wield is the same as that which is wielded by NPCs might be specious, though.

It wouldn't be the first time that the spells we are using are different than the ones they are using.

You are right, it should only be -1 per level. I'm trying to get a few friends to test this out, but oddly no one wants to sit around and take negative levels for science, yet

[Mad_Bombardier]

I'm trying to get a few friends to test this out, but oddly no one wants to sit around and take negative levels for science, yet

Spooky, what server are you on? I'd be happy to help, if you're on Argonnessen.

[MrCow]

I'm trying to get a few friends to test this out, but oddly no one wants to sit around and take negative levels for science, yet

I'd help you but I only play Warforged.

By the way, I'm sure Risia could be a decent meeting place if you end up finding someone on a different server but is still willing.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Just did a quick test. Each neg level from Enervate gives -10% HP, -2 to-hit, and -2 to each save. I haven't tested with SP.

The negative level from different alignment is -1 to-hit, -1 saves, -5 HP. Except, that when I had 6 neg lvls from Enervate and added my Anarchic, I only lost -2 HP. I'm guessing that the -5 applied at L14, but that lowered my 10% penalty and subsequent penalties.

[Strakeln]

Yes, having as many negative levels as you do levels kills you, too.

It's really impossible to tell what should or did happen to him without knowing how many negative levels he got.

We don't need to know the exact number... we only need to know three things:

1) A negative level should be -1 to saves
2) My base will save is 0 or greater (by deduction we can tell it is > 0)
3) My will save is -14 in the screenshot.

This alone indisputably proves that the negative levels I have been hit with do more than -1 to saves per level.

Whether or not that is supposed to be the case is what the question is.

[Hadrian]

You wouldn't happen to be wearing any items that give negative will saves would you?

[Spookydodger]

We don't need to know the exact number... we only need to know three things:

1) A negative level should be -1 to saves
2) My base will save is 0 or greater (by deduction we can tell it is > 0)
3) My will save is -14 in the screenshot.

This alone indisputably proves that the negative levels I have been hit with do more than -1 to saves per level.

Whether or not that is supposed to be the case is what the question is.

We are arguing for the same side, good sir.

It should be -1 per neg level. It's not. Why? Is it a bug? Is it intentional? Do the negative levels NPCs inflict match up with the negative levels we inflict?

[Spookydodger]

Spooky, what server are you on? I'd be happy to help, if you're on Argonnessen.

Ad...Sarlona.

And yeah, I could swing by Risia. Though it appears that Mad has already done the leg work above.

[Spookydodger]

Just did a quick test. Each neg level from Enervate gives -10% HP, -2 to-hit, and -2 to each save. I haven't tested with SP.

The negative level from different alignment is -1 to-hit, -1 saves, -5 HP. Except, that when I had 6 neg lvls from Enervate and added my Anarchic, I only lost -2 HP. I'm guessing that the -5 applied at L14, but that lowered my 10% penalty and subsequent penalties.

Ok, so let's see...

144 hitpoints. 14.4 hitpoints per negative level, rounded down to 14. 2 negative levels = 28 hitpoints.

144-28=116 hitpoints.

Yep, that's what it is.

Now... on to the next debate. Is it right?

A barbarian with 450 hitpoints, for 2 negative levels, would lose 90 hitpoints. If they took the maximum negative levels they could without dying (13), they would lose 585 hitpoints. Killing them at 10 negative levels. Hrm...

So perhaps it's 10% of the current maximum, rounded up.

10% of 144 = 15 (14.4)
10% of 129 = 13 (12.9)
144-15-13= 116

So, theoretically, a character with 450 hitpoints, getting 10 negative levels would be at
1: 450 - 45
2: 405 - 41
3: 364 - 37
4: 327 - 33
5: 294 - 30
6: 264 - 27
7: 237 - 24
8: 213 - 22
9: 191 - 20
10: 171

Not to mention -20 to all saves, skills, and such.

Perhaps this was done to speed up the game, but it does seem to give an AWFUL big boost to a spell that has NO save (only SR applies) (Talking about enervation, though other sources of negative levels do exist).

And then the question becomes... when you are restored, how does it calculate it? Do you recover the appropriate amount of hitpoints?

Maybe this is the case of one of those things that were done because of previous circumstances, much like ranged-rate-of-fire?

I would love it if a developer could come in and weigh in on the matter to give this discussion a little bit more focus.

I'm sure the brawling taverns would love to see enervation do what it was originally supposed to do, even though death ward does block it.

[MysticTheurge]

Each neg level from Enervate gives -10% HP

That's absurd. That basically means that 10 negative levels kills you no matter how many levels or HD you actually have.

That's a terrible bastardization of how negative levels are supposed to work. It's not even close to the spirit of the thing.

[Aspenor]

That's absurd. That basically means that 10 negative levels kills you no matter how many levels or HD you actually have.

That's a terrible bastardization of how negative levels are supposed to work. It's not even close to the spirit of the thing.

And no wonder neg levels chew through like 10% of my SP apiece, that's out of whack.

[ChaosTheEternal]

Ad...Sarlona.

Well heck, than I can be a guinea pig. Or the one throwing the Enervations. Either works.

[jkm]

its more like 15% of your spell points for one level on a sorc. i thought it was taking away my enhancements and everything else because i drop from 1831 to 1651 with 1 negative level. subsequent negative levels aren't as bad, but i do know that with 6 i'm under 915.

[Geonis]

its more like 15% of your spell points for one level on a sorc. i thought it was taking away my enhancements and everything else because i drop from 1831 to 1651 with 1 negative level. subsequent negative levels aren't as bad, but i do know that with 6 i'm under 915.

1831
-10% (184)
_______
1647

So, assuming you are correct in remembering the numbers, you are losing less than 10%.



Now, assuming the 10% is rounded up as stated above, you should be well over 915 with 6 negative levels.



1831-10%=1647
1647-10%=1482
1482-10%=1333
1333-10%=1199
1199-10%=1079
1079-10%=971

[lenric]

Ok, as per description it is working pretty much exactly how it is supposed to save for health and spell points...the reason you get -2 total to saves etc is as follows...the spell itself gives you -1, then the -1 to effective level gives you -1. Your save at 13 was lower than your save at 14. Those two stack, the actual negative effect from the spell and the negative effect due to effective level.
Then as far as hp and spell points go I would be led to believe then that the enhancements and feats which have minimum levels or perhaps even attained at levels you higher than your effective level would be neutralized...on that however I'm not sure. But the -2 makes sense to me.

[MysticTheurge]

the reason you get -2 total to saves etc is as follows...the spell itself gives you -1, then the -1 to effective level gives you -1.

This isn't how it works.

The spell gives you a negative level. The spell description is merely duplicating the description of what a negative level does.

The spell doesn't give you a -1 penalty to stuff plus a negative level.

[Mad_Bombardier]

That's absurd. That basically means that 10 negative levels kills you no matter how many levels or HD you actually have.

That's a terrible bastardization of how negative levels are supposed to work. It's not even close to the spirit of the thing.

No, it's -10% of current [Normal HP * .9 ^ (neg levels)]. It's based on total HP @ highest level including Greater False Life belt, Toughness Helm, feats, enhancements, and -5 HP Negative Level from Anarchic weapon. My 14Fighter went:

376 (-38)
338 (-34)
304 (-30)
274 (-28)
246 (-24)
222 (-23)
199 (-20) 197 (w/ Anarchic neg lvl)
179 (-18)
161 (-16)
145