Negative levels don't add up

[MysticTheurge]

No, it's -10% of current [Normal HP * .9 ^ (neg levels)]

Oh. Well, that's not quite as bad, I suppose.

Still, though. DDO negative levels are a little overly punitive.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Oh. Well, that's not quite as bad, I suppose.

Still, though. DDO negative levels are a little overly punitive.

Yup. It can't be a simple -5 because we receive max HD per level and tons of bonus HP. -10% actually goes along with the increased HP in DDO fairly well and HP are easily recoverable after Restoring neg levels. Although, the system does favor big base HP numbers.

A L20 melee type with 500 HP takes 19 negative levels. He is left with 67 HP, well over what a L1 melee-type has.
A L20 caster type with 200 HP takes 19 negative levels. He is left with 27 HP, equal to what a L1 caster-type has.

The spell points just hurt. With that first negative level is the biggest hit to SP. And they're gone, /poof, nonrecoverable aside from Shrine, DVs, and mnemonics.

The double penalty to-hit and saves is just downright punitive. Even with all our ways of increasing to-hit and progressive bonus, -20 to hit from 10 Negative levels hurts.

[Red_Knight]

Well, let's see.

20 hitpoints (Heroic Toughness)
56 hitpoints (14x4 Sorcerer hitpoints)
28 hitpoints (con 15 (2 * 14))
10 hitpoints (Argonessan Favor "Draconic Vitality" feat)
30 hitpoints (Greater False Life)
--------------------------------
144 Total hitpoints.

My base Constitution is 10, with a +5 con item.

So if it took 5 hitpoints per level, I would have been at 134.
If it's based on class and con, would lose 8 (4 class + 4 con bonus) per level, for 128
I was at 116.

Uhm, a con of 14 or 15 gives a +2 HP per hit die remember. As such, if con bonus is used for neg levels, then you'd lose 6 HP per neg level. I'm not sure how your getting con bonus of +4 with a con of 10+5(from item).

[lenric]

This isn't how it works.

The spell gives you a negative level. The spell description is merely duplicating the description of what a negative level does.

The spell doesn't give you a -1 penalty to stuff plus a negative level.

oooo mystic thurge is wrong and I am right. Take another look at the spell description of Ennervation in the compendium here on the ddo website under wizard/sorcerer spells.

"A black ray of crackling negative energy suppresses the life force of any living creature it strikes, granting an enemy 1d4 negative levels. If the target has as many negative levels as its hit dice or levels, it dies. Each negative level gives a creature a -1 penalty on attack rolls, saves, skill checks, ability checks, and effective level. Negative levels stack."

The red word is what is very important. See it is an 'and'. So you get the -1 to attack rolls, saves, skill checks, ability checks from the spell/negative level then...you have to have a pnp DM handbook, you go and look up negative levels and see the description of the 'effective level' an effective level lower than your actual character level gives you a -1 to all skills or abilities including attacks that funcion according to a die roll per level lower than your actual level. Therefore, it does make sense for it to be -2 to all attacks, skills, and saves like I said in my original post...

P.S. this is not meant at an attack at you MT I thouroughly respect you I am just moreso excited about me being right when you had me convinced I was wrong.
So now I am going to be trying to make sense of the hp portion of it according to the dnd/ddo rules.

[MysticTheurge]

"A black ray of crackling negative energy suppresses the life force of any living creature it strikes, granting an enemy 1d4 negative levels. If the target has as many negative levels as its hit dice or levels, it dies. Each negative level gives a creature a -1 penalty on attack rolls, saves, skill checks, ability checks, and effective level. Negative levels stack."

The red word is what is very important. See it is an 'and'. So you get the -1 to attack rolls, saves, skill checks, ability checks from the spell/negative level then...you have to have a pnp DM handbook, you go and look up negative levels and see the description of the 'effective level' an effective level lower than your actual character level gives you a -1 to all skills or abilities including attacks that funcion according to a die roll per level lower than your actual level. Therefore, it does make sense for it to be -2 to all attacks, skills, and saves like I said in my original post...

You're combining the terms "effective level" with the D&D term negative level. Take another look at that sentence:

"Each negative level gives a creature a [list of things]. Negative levels stack."

Everything in the list of things is just a description of what a negative level gives you. The 'effective level' bit specifically refers to things that consider level. It doesn't mean all your other stats related to level are reduced again.

I suppose it's possible someone interpreted it the same way as you while they were coding negative levels, but that's not the correct way to do it. In fact, the SRD is quite clear on what penalties a negative level gives you:

• -1 on all skill checks and ability checks.
• -1 on attack rolls and saving throws.
• -5 hit points.
• -1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).
• If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level.

As you can see there, there's an additional description as to what "-1 effective level" means. It only means that you're considered 1 level lower for effects that involve level. So, when you try to make a caster level check, you're one level lower. When someone casts an HD capped spell on you, your effective HD is one lower. And so on. It doesn't mean you have the BAB, saves and spell slots as if you had lost your top level. Those penalties are covered by the other items in the list.

[lenric]

You're combining the terms "effective level" with the D&D term negative level. Take another look at that sentence:

"Each negative level gives a creature a [list of things]. Negative levels stack."

Everything in the list of things is just a description of what a negative level gives you. The 'effective level' bit specifically refers to things that consider level. It doesn't mean all your other stats related to level are reduced again.

I suppose it's possible someone interpreted it the same way as you while they were coding negative levels, but that's not the correct way to do it. In fact, the SRD is quite clear on what penalties a negative level gives you:

• -1 on all skill checks and ability checks.
• -1 on attack rolls and saving throws.
• -5 hit points.
• -1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).
• If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level.

As you can see there, there's an additional description as to what "-1 effective level" means. It only means that you're considered 1 level lower for effects that involve level. So, when you try to make a caster level check, you're one level lower. When someone casts an HD capped spell on you, your effective HD is one lower. And so on. It doesn't mean you have the BAB, saves and spell slots as if you had lost your top level. Those penalties are covered by the other items in the list.

Hmmm, sound argument, apparently somebody probably interperetted it like I did when coding ....hmmm well then...

[Furgulder]

Hehe. I was hit by 14 negative levels in Von 3 charging the named and 2 other beholders with my paladin. I was then hit with a disentegrate....and rolled a 20.

I died in another second or 2, but thought that was hilarious.

[GlassCannon]

I still say it's a DM's "I'M GOING TO KILL YOUR CHARACTER NOW!!! get the hell out of my house and don't ever come back." type spell.

Every time I am hit by it my demeanor slumps. It's the kill-all, and it is ridiculously overused.