Tempest Spine is not a raid

[maddmatt70]

I am sorry but I dislike tempest spine. I like the no flagging aspect to it like everyone else, but I hate the get in a group and zerge to the end mentality for a raid. A raid should actually have some sort of strategy, thinking aspect, challengish part to it. A quest that really is an expanded pop run has no business being a raid..

[llevenbaxx]

Well, to each his own but it wasnt always a zerg fest. When it was brand spanking new it was a go slow, search for the way type of raid. Its just been around for so long that everyone knows blindfolded, walking backwards. It was easy to get lost in back then, believe me.

As for the puzzles, I dont know. I like quests to flow personally, be they raid or not, Tempest Spine is definitely flows. Puzzles tend to kill the fun imo, unless you are the one or two working on them, for the others its sit around with your thumb up you butt alot of times. Sure at times there are other things that need doing, but no always(doh, ppl gonna start callin me a tag-along).

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I am sorry but I dislike tempest spine. I like the no flagging aspect to it like everyone else, but I hate the get in a group and zerge to the end mentality for a raid. A raid should actually have some sort of strategy, thinking aspect, challengish part to it. A quest that really is an expanded pop run has no business being a raid..

How is it any different than von5/6 in terms of lack of strategy? people split up and zerg the heck out of von5 all the time. The Von6 tactics are a bit more interesting since they fixed the pulling, but its not like it takes a high IQ to run von6.

And Reaver? What's the stategy required there? CC, hit the twit until you fly, pull the switch. Yup, real complex there.

Sorry, not understanding your problem with TS at all.

[Alavatar]

What about Velah? The extent of her puzzle is knocking down 3 pillars at the same time. Then hide behind a rock while the tanks go beat the nose of the dragon like she is a bad puppy that just pooed on the carpet.

Oh yeah, that requires some hardcore mental power!

[totmacher]

I both agree and disagree with you. I love tempest personally. It's one raid where I don't have to worry about one person or thing (such as losing the coffer in the dragon or running out of time in the reaver or failing to do puzzles in the Abbot) screwing up the entire raid. The problem with Tempest at the moment is it is too easy for capped toons and even midbys to a certain extent. The quest was put back in before the dearth of uber items that are used to twink out toons these days. Along with the spell point increase and enhancement changes, the quest is very easy by today's standards. Personally I think there can be a primarily fighting raid that includes a lot of logic, coordination and quick decision making capabilities. The pull for Fire and Ice is along the lines here for a good part of the raid that you might like.

I would, overall, love to see my character's abilities in a raid be put to good use as opposed to wait for pullers or waiting on people to do twitch puzzles. If a raid would test our damage output, mana conservation skills, crowd control skills and general uberness then I would be all for it. I think this is why people love Tempest so much, because it's more in line with the rest of the game.

[Impaqt]

I am sorry but I dislike tempest spine. I like the no flagging aspect to it like everyone else, but I hate the get in a group and zerge to the end mentality for a raid. A raid should actually have some sort of strategy, thinking aspect, challengish part to it. A quest that really is an expanded pop run has no business being a raid..

Totally Dissagree....

Sure, Now that we've done the raid litterally Hundreds of times, there seems to be no strategy anymore. We're all twinked out and/or significantly higher level than the quest.

Take a group of non-twinked l8-10's into the quest and see how much of a zergfest it is.

This happens with ALL the best quests inthe game.... WHo would of thunk we'd be completeing Crucible in 20 Minutes? Or Using Madstone as a Loot Run?

[totmacher]

Also, I think what attracts D&D is the non-linear aspect of the game. The fact that you can swing a 30 foot rope down and get the collectable, if you bounce it off the DM first. A lot of people look for that in the game here but it's hard to tell them that these challenges do not or cannot exist as of yet. Games like NWN 2 allow you to have a DM opposite of you, to help you make decisions in a world. Unfortunately, a computer-generated world is bound by code, so we'll never see this sort of flexibility.

My opinion is that you make do with what you got. Sure the quest is linear and a zergfest but how can you improve upon that? A lot of people have thought up neat ways to run through quests using the spells we have (soloing pop anyone?) to make it a faster experience. This is where a lot of people use their thinking metagame skills.

[Fallout]

I am sorry but I dislike tempest spine. I like the no flagging aspect to it like everyone else, but I hate the get in a group and zerge to the end mentality for a raid. A raid should actually have some sort of strategy, thinking aspect, challengish part to it. A quest that really is an expanded pop run has no business being a raid..

What you're complaining is a sympton of ALL quests because its static. How much 'strategy, thinking' do you need if you run a quest that is exactly the same the first time you run it and the 100th time you run it? That is the problem with DDO, static dungeons.

If you know exactly when a mob will appear, where the runes are, how to solve a puzzle, what is there to plan?

[Memnir]

When I can I count more than six people in my group - it's a raid.

[maddmatt70]

Totally Dissagree....

Sure, Now that we've done the raid litterally Hundreds of times, there seems to be no strategy anymore. We're all twinked out and/or significantly higher level than the quest.

Take a group of non-twinked l8-10's into the quest and see how much of a zergfest it is.

This happens with ALL the best quests inthe game.... WHo would of thunk we'd be completeing Crucible in 20 Minutes? Or Using Madstone as a Loot Run?

When the Level cap was 10 that quest was a serge. I am guessing that there was some significant twinkish at the 8-10 level, but regardless it was a serge then.. One of the other posters mentioned the fire and ice example as an illustration of strategy/puzzles - yes I agree that was strategy/puzzles, but there needs to be more of that for it to be a raid.

[Perceval418]

I am sorry but I dislike tempest spine. I like the no flagging aspect to it like everyone else, but I hate the get in a group and zerge to the end mentality for a raid. A raid should actually have some sort of strategy, thinking aspect, challengish part to it. A quest that really is an expanded pop run has no business being a raid..

I also think its partially there originally to give players a way to experience raiding for the first time (IE: In the days Before everyone has run the dragon 100 times). I agree that its easy. Last time i ran it was a few weeks ago, we were all levels 8-11, and we werent even a full group. Not to mention, we only had one cleric. I thought we would be doomed but we zerged it like it was nothing.

I would like to see tempest spine act like a real raid, have a three day timer, and have some neat level 7-10 named gear in a warded chest that isnt as good as the dragon, but perhaps just fun and worth getting for a few levels or even more.

But then again i think it would be cool to have raids/named items throughout the leveling experience. Imagine a WW-type instance that was a raid, and where the boss was some nasty purple named kobald shaman that took 12 people to beat down. Some interesting named items for levels 2-5, WW as the one time pre-requisite for getting the quest.

[Twerpp]

Call it what you will dude it's a 12 man fun-fest beatdown. Whether you grind it out at low levels orHULKSMASH! it at level 14 this is one of the funnest quests in the game.

[Yajerman01]

Also, I think what attracts D&D is the non-linear aspect of the game. The fact that you can swing a 30 foot rope down and get the collectable, if you bounce it off the DM first. A lot of people look for that in the game here but it's hard to tell them that these challenges do not or cannot exist as of yet. Games like NWN 2 allow you to have a DM opposite of you, to help you make decisions in a world. Unfortunately, a computer-generated world is bound by code, so we'll never see this sort of flexibility.

My opinion is that you make do with what you got. Sure the quest is linear and a zergfest but how can you improve upon that? A lot of people have thought up neat ways to run through quests using the spells we have (soloing pop anyone?) to make it a faster experience. This is where a lot of people use their thinking metagame skills.

id like to expand on your thought with regard to expanding TS.

Our guild quests TS (or tries to) once a month with our capped toons. However we put restirctions on, for example. You can only use the items that are on your toon at the time of entrance. You have to use items (if you can use them) from the looted chest. For example, I run in there using my SOS, and on the first chest I pull a light mace...guess what, im running that quest with a light mace until i find a better (or worse) item. this applies across the board. Remember the swim? well if you start off without an underwater action item, guess whos gonna hurt if you have a bad swim? lol!

It makes it very interesting to say the least... think about trying new methods for these quests, spice it up! or are you all too uber to even consider stuff like that! Now your talking linear!

[adamkatt]

I am sorry but I dislike tempest spine. I like the no flagging aspect to it like everyone else, but I hate the get in a group and zerge to the end mentality for a raid. A raid should actually have some sort of strategy, thinking aspect, challengish part to it. A quest that really is an expanded pop run has no business being a raid..

Maybe at the end they could have us all have a sit down for a nice game if chess with the boss..

[maddong]

If you don't count TS as a raid then we don't need more raids. We need more 12 man beatdowns with inflated HP/AC/SR/immunities. Maybe a 1 hour 12 man quest with evenly spaced chests.

[The_Ick]

I am sorry but I dislike tempest spine. I like the no flagging aspect to it like everyone else, but I hate the get in a group and zerge to the end mentality for a raid. A raid should actually have some sort of strategy, thinking aspect, challengish part to it. A quest that really is an expanded pop run has no business being a raid..

BAAHHHH!!!! TS is a lot of fun. Sure it is a zergfest now, but it has also been around longer then any other raid. We have all run it so many times, that we can run it with our eyes closed. It is also the lowest level eaid out there, it wasn't made for lvl 14 toons. My guilds run it's it with our 6-10 level toons and it is a good time and still somewhat challenging..

I won't even mention the fun-o-matic that is the anual "Naked Tempest Spine Run".... ohhh, that is just good all american fun right there...

[Litz]

I am sorry but I dislike tempest spine. I like the no flagging aspect to it like everyone else, but I hate the get in a group and zerge to the end mentality for a raid. A raid should actually have some sort of strategy, thinking aspect, challengish part to it. A quest that really is an expanded pop run has no business being a raid..

All that needs to be done then is add some puzzles like VoN5 and then you're happy. Tempest spine should be a template for future raids, but definatley be creative and improve on it.. I don't like the walk in the front door fight the head mob in charge, be done in 45 min mentality of stuff like DQ or Reaver at least with the titan you have to do the TF prior to getting to the main mob. The end fight should be a final piece of stawberry ontop a whipped and creamed short cake not just a strawberry.

[ArkoHighStar]

When the Level cap was 10 that quest was a serge. I am guessing that there was some significant twinkish at the 8-10 level, but regardless it was a serge then.. One of the other posters mentioned the fire and ice example as an illustration of strategy/puzzles - yes I agree that was strategy/puzzles, but there needs to be more of that for it to be a raid.

I disagree, the newer raids are boring as hell, they are just 12 people in a room with an endboss, they are difficult for a little while, until someone figures it out and then they become 15 minutes excercises in repetition. At least the VONS and TWF have a 12 man pre raid, but the more recent raids are just the end boss, and most if not all have been shortmanned to death, showing just how flawed they are as raids, meaning having 12 people is just a nice option but really the raid can be completed by 2 or 3 people while the rest stand around and watch. The reaver and TWF are the best examples of this.


The most popular quests in this game all have a few things in common. They all have some kind of progression through a list of objectives, a combination of indoor and outdoor areas, a varied mob selection, and the ability to finish them in a variety of ways


Waterworks: yes its a chain, but it is a progression to the end, loads of combat, plenty of room for both zergers and the strategy types, and it provides the first challenge to new players.

Irestone Inlet: under appreciated, should be converted into a lowbie raid area, it has that marauding feel like raiding a village, bump up the mobs and the end boss, and make the ship really blow up

Gwylans Stand: Mix of outdoor/indoor areas, good objectives with stright forward progression, again enjoyed by both zergers and non zergers alike. good amount of loot.

StormCleave Outpost: All the same aspects of Gwylans with a great end boss.

Tempest Spine: the raid version of Stormcleave, with just the right mix of objectives, teamwork, and again a great end boss.

POP: yeah its a loot run but it still is fun as hell

Madstone Crater: The stormcleave of level 14 again that mix of indoor and outdoor areas, a progression, and waves and waves of mobs.

The Crucible: All inside but this contains some of the best use of skills of any dungeon, except for the maze which until learned is just an excercise in being confused. But the innovative use of the swim skill and the need for high reflex saves, gives it high marks in my books. It has puzzles but they are not the type that make you want to scream.

Against the Demon Queen: This would have been great as a 12 man pre raid with 2 more rooms and the requirement to split up.

Chains of Flame: This quest comes closest to that raiding the castle feeling, fighting your way up the different levels to the end boss, having those from the upper firing down on you in the open areas, it felt like an inhabited place.

Chamber of Rayium: The right amount of randomness to keep it interesting, it gave you the option of trying to go in for the kill or get the max amount of loot. Again could be enjoyed by zergers and non zergers alike.


Mod 5 gets a passing mention but the quests just seemed to lack that feeling that you were accomplishing something. Ghosts of perdition is simply an excercise in outlasting the beholder. Inferno of the damned has progression but sometimes it just feels you are not getting anywhere because you are always running back on the same areas. Vol is just to easy even after the nerf, in most cases people just stand around while 2 tanks run around pulling the mobs.

All the quests listed above give the player something most of the newer raids don't which is a sense of accomplishment. They worked together as a team(even the zergers) and finished it together

[Mercules]

I am sorry but I dislike tempest spine. I like the no flagging aspect to it like everyone else, but I hate the get in a group and zerge to the end mentality for a raid. A raid should actually have some sort of strategy, thinking aspect, challengish part to it. A quest that really is an expanded pop run has no business being a raid..

Do it with three level 10 characters. Arguably not a Raid, but a lot of fun.

[Wulf_Ratbane]

When I can I count more than six people in my group - it's a raid.

When I can count over six, it means I probably still need to drink the other six.