A Few Notes on Horizon Walker:

[nateusmaximus]

After playing Horizon Walker in heroics for a couple of days now I've noticed a couple of issues that need polishing in order to make this tree feel better. Please note, I don't think these changes will make the tree noticeably more powerful or actually perform better in most circumstances, but they will definitely improve the feel of the tree.

1) No Missed Step (the Dex trance) has an appallingly low recharge rate, which translates into far lower uptime than other trances. I understand you were going for a mechanic that allowed characters without SP bars to still use the trance, but please increase the recharge rate on this. It needs to go to either a) on vorpal regains a charge, or b) chance on crit to regain a charge. As it is now, it just feels "sparse" or "stingy". I constantly felt like I was low on charges, and in fact frequently ran out for several minutes before gaining another charge. Many times I would see vorpal after vorpal fail to recharge it, and it just ended up feeling like a chore to monitor charges and make sure I only used them at key moments - that definitely doesn't feel good or fun. Of course resources need management, but this just felt like drudgery.

2) Corner the Quarry is kind of a weird ability. Many times it seems to fail to activate even when inspecting the mob reveals it's active on them. There is also no visible indicator for if it succeeds or not. It's able to be used every 6 seconds, but says it has a 20 second cooldown in the tooltip - is that 20 sec between actually making things immobile? I don't know exactly what to do with this one, but it needs some polish.

3) Speaking of feeling "sparse," the 12 second uptime on the Misty Step ranged power boost, and the 12 second uptime on the displacement boost also felt a tad too short and like a bit of a management "chore" - something like extending the buff to 15 seconds would be a small change but go a long way toward lessening the "ability management overload" feeling. I'm all for an active playstyle - I've mostly played casters during my 11 years on DDO, and those are the epitome of an active playstyle - but the number of things to manage with Horizon Walker and the short intervals make it feel overly busy.

Bonus Suggestion:

I totally understand why Improved Precise Shot was nerfed back when Inquisitive and throwers were massively overpowered, but we're several nerfs down the line now, and single target ranged DPS (i.e. due to archer's focus) soooo massively overshadows IPS that it's a bit comical now. With the changes to doubleshot, the nerfs to several ranged styles, and the major buffs to single-target ranged dps, I think it's time to take off the -20% to damage that IPS imposes. It's so lopsided at this point that I considered not even taking IPS this life, especially with the way Horizon Walker incentivizes single target focus. I ultimately did take it, since there are some moments when swapping stances still makes sense, but I use it rarely. I don't think a key ranged ability should be so marginalized. Also, it's another one of those things that "feels bad" or seems "stingy" when playing ranged, and it's always in the back of my mind when I have IPS on that I'm gimping myself. Please roll back that particular nerf.

[nateusmaximus]

BTW, did a little testing in the cargo hold - shot my bow 500 times, saw 23 vorpals and... 2 No Missed Step recharges... 2. That's way too low. Please, I want to enjoy playing this tree but this issue is a major impediment right now.

[Tlorrd]

Totally agree with all your comments. Well said.

[Steelstar]

After playing Horizon Walker in heroics for a couple of days now I've noticed a couple of issues that need polishing in order to make this tree feel better. Please note, I don't think these changes will make the tree noticeably more powerful or actually perform better in most circumstances, but they will definitely improve the feel of the tree.

1) No Missed Step (the Dex trance) has an appallingly low recharge rate, which translates into far lower uptime than other trances. I understand you were going for a mechanic that allowed characters without SP bars to still use the trance, but please increase the recharge rate on this. It needs to go to either a) on vorpal regains a charge, or b) chance on crit to regain a charge. As it is now, it just feels "sparse" or "stingy". I constantly felt like I was low on charges, and in fact frequently ran out for several minutes before gaining another charge. Many times I would see vorpal after vorpal fail to recharge it, and it just ended up feeling like a chore to monitor charges and make sure I only used them at key moments - that definitely doesn't feel good or fun. Of course resources need management, but this just felt like drudgery.

2) Corner the Quarry is kind of a weird ability. Many times it seems to fail to activate even when inspecting the mob reveals it's active on them. There is also no visible indicator for if it succeeds or not. It's able to be used every 6 seconds, but says it has a 20 second cooldown in the tooltip - is that 20 sec between actually making things immobile? I don't know exactly what to do with this one, but it needs some polish.

3) Speaking of feeling "sparse," the 12 second uptime on the Misty Step ranged power boost, and the 12 second uptime on the displacement boost also felt a tad too short and like a bit of a management "chore" - something like extending the buff to 15 seconds would be a small change but go a long way toward lessening the "ability management overload" feeling. I'm all for an active playstyle - I've mostly played casters during my 11 years on DDO, and those are the epitome of an active playstyle - but the number of things to manage with Horizon Walker and the short intervals make it feel overly busy.

Bonus Suggestion:

I totally understand why Improved Precise Shot was nerfed back when Inquisitive and throwers were massively overpowered, but we're several nerfs down the line now, and single target ranged DPS (i.e. due to archer's focus) soooo massively overshadows IPS that it's a bit comical now. With the changes to doubleshot, the nerfs to several ranged styles, and the major buffs to single-target ranged dps, I think it's time to take off the -20% to damage that IPS imposes. It's so lopsided at this point that I considered not even taking IPS this life, especially with the way Horizon Walker incentivizes single target focus. I ultimately did take it, since there are some moments when swapping stances still makes sense, but I use it rarely. I don't think a key ranged ability should be so marginalized. Also, it's another one of those things that "feels bad" or seems "stingy" when playing ranged, and it's always in the back of my mind when I have IPS on that I'm gimping myself. Please roll back that particular nerf.

Thanks for the detailed feedback!

1. Well put. After observing how this has gone for people on Live, we're doubling the chance that a charge recharges on Vorpal in an upcoming patch (not today's).
2. We've found a bug where the Banish the Quarry upgrade to Corner isn't working right; we'll take a look at the other portions while we're in there. The cooldown is just wrong though, it's meant to be at 20 - we'll fix that for a future patch as well.
3. We intentionally positioned the strength of that buff against the need to maintain it that way, and so far on Live that's looked like it's acting as expected. We could consider making the buff longer, but we'd probably also take its power down a notch if we do.

Bonus: When we made the IPS change, we already had the overall structure of the changes to Ranged combat in mind, including this year's restructure of the Bow combat style and the now-finally-released Horizon Walker tree. These changes weren't made in a vacuum, but with intent regarding where we were headed. With Horizon Walker out, we're observing the overall ranged ecosystem and will continue to make changes as needed. That said, we have had no indication that we need to change IPS further, and have seen many indicators that the change to IPS is having the exact effect on Ranged gameplay that we'd intended. No plans to change it at this time.

[Tlorrd]

Thanks for the detailed feedback!

1. Well put. After observing how this has gone for people on Live, we're doubling the chance that a charge recharges on Vorpal in an upcoming patch (not today's).
2. We've found a bug where the Banish the Quarry upgrade to Corner isn't working right; we'll take a look at the other portions while we're in there. The cooldown is just wrong though, it's meant to be at 20 - we'll fix that for a future patch as well.
3. We intentionally positioned the strength of that buff against the need to maintain it that way, and so far on Live that's looked like it's acting as expected. We could consider making the buff longer, but we'd probably also take its power down a notch if we do.

Bonus: When we made the IPS change, we already had the overall structure of the changes to Ranged combat in mind, including this year's restructure of the Bow combat style and the now-finally-released Horizon Walker tree. These changes weren't made in a vacuum, but with intent regarding where we were headed. With Horizon Walker out, we're observing the overall ranged ecosystem and will continue to make changes as needed. That said, we have had no indication that we need to change IPS further, and have seen many indicators that the change to IPS is having the exact effect on Ranged gameplay that we'd intended. No plans to change it at this time.

Response to your response:

1. Thanks. If you are able to tell us the % on vorpal that would be nice ... I imagine the new change is 50% or 66% on a vorpal to recharge.

2. So are you saying that the cooldown for the ability is going to change to 20 seconds overall? Thus a "single target" ability will have a significantly longer cooldown than the immobility it provides? If the ability applied immobility to all targets via IPS, then I can understand, but as a single target ability, a cooldown of 20 seconds seems excessive. If I'm reading what you're saying incorrectly then I'm probably confused. I think a 6 second cooldown on the shot is fine as a tier 4 single target ability. Its a nice tradeoff of getting the +4W every 6 seconds on an IPS shot while having a nice single target boost.

3. I agree with OP that its a lot of active management and in light of the possibility of some sort of builder spender system in epics which also adds a lot of different timing mechanics, can become cluttered on top of timing cooldowns of various abilities and shots ... also in light of the fact that numerous times there is a 1 second global cooldown and loss of active shots due to inherent game system lags via the action que ... extending the displacement and RP bonus to 15 seconds makes up for the game's technical limitations. However, with all that being said ... I'd rather you keep the current system then nerf it in any sort of way to have a longer duration or some altered ability.

Bonus: well that closes the book on that it seems. One can only hope. In my current testing ... Light/Heavy xbows are fine via inquisitive. Bows are exceedingly strong from a standpoint of getting RP and doubleshot bonuses in addition to increasing Crit profiles beyond belief with a revolving tripleshot active skill. I haven't tested thrower enough yet to get a feel for that style. GXB which is something I have tested extensively needs a little help to stay relevant in comparison (that help can be in other forms rather than pure DPS, but that's for another discussion).

[droid327]

That said, we have had no indication that we need to change IPS further, and have seen many indicators that the change to IPS is having the exact effect on Ranged gameplay that we'd intended. No plans to change it at this time.

Consider this an indication that you need to change IPS further

I found the same thing as the other poster, and I said as much back on the Lama forums...HW is entirely dependent on those AF stacks to do any meaningful damage. And while it might be intended that HW is a single-target bow tree using the single-target AF stance...the only builds that can get any meaningful use out of IPS are Inqui and endgame Throwers, just through sheer massive volume of fire, being able to spray and pray fast enough through enough targets to make up for the lost DPS.

You cant observe something that isnt happening. Ranged play outside of those three archetypes is pretty much nonexistent, from everything I see in online discussions...things like Repeaters are functionally extinct in high-end gameplay, and GXB Mechanics are at best an endangered species - and the IPS penalty is a big reason why, because it functionally limits ranged builds to being single-target, or playing down in difficulty so you can kill things fast enough. The same reason why Chain Shape is something no serious blaster lock takes, because the damage penalty is a deal-breaker, even though Chain Shape is arguably a better geometry for most of the game.

You said the HW buffs are stronger because of the effort it takes to maintain them...well IPS doesnt seem to get any empowerment based on the player skill and attention you need to use it properly. Especially on a slower-firing build like RXBs, where you cant just spray and pray like Inqui or Thrower. Lining up a good shot requires proper positioning and movement, mob management, skillful use of tab-targeting or manual aiming, and precise timing. And for all that effort you get....-20% damage

[Gabrael]

2. We've found a bug where the Banish the Quarry upgrade to Corner isn't working right; we'll take a look at the other portions while we're in there. The cooldown is just wrong though, it's meant to be at 20 - we'll fix that for a future patch as well.

COnrner the QUary immobilisation says it's 12 secduration , but is actually only last 6 sec

[SocratesBastardSon]

Sorry to hijack the HW thread, but since IPS and GXbow came up...

... GXB Mechanics are at best an endangered species - and the IPS penalty is a big reason why, because it functionally limits ranged builds to being single-target...

I believe GXbow is mostly limited to F2P players who don't have Inquisitive. Anyone serious about Xbow use is going to switch away from GXBow to Inq at first opportunity. Has anyone seen anything different?

I would like to see GXbow be a viable weapon choice and IPS strikes me as a perfect way to go about it: the Mechanic tree could use a little repair/refresh, e.g., Thunderstone isn't working correctly. Add in an IPS penalty reduction, say at tier 3, capstone or spread across cores: for instance, Core 2-6 reduces the IPS penalty by 2% each for a total of -10% at capstone, or even remove it entirely at capstone, whatever. GXbow just seems like the kind of weapon that should have the Arbalest-like ability to shoot through targets. This would give players at least one good reason to adopt GXbow.

[Tlorrd]

COnrner the QUary immobilisation says it's 12 secduration , but is actually only last 6 sec

Is this due to reaper reduction of CC?

[nateusmaximus]

Thanks for the detailed feedback!

1. Well put. After observing how this has gone for people on Live, we're doubling the chance that a charge recharges on Vorpal in an upcoming patch (not today's).
2. We've found a bug where the Banish the Quarry upgrade to Corner isn't working right; we'll take a look at the other portions while we're in there. The cooldown is just wrong though, it's meant to be at 20 - we'll fix that for a future patch as well.
3. We intentionally positioned the strength of that buff against the need to maintain it that way, and so far on Live that's looked like it's acting as expected. We could consider making the buff longer, but we'd probably also take its power down a notch if we do.

Bonus: When we made the IPS change, we already had the overall structure of the changes to Ranged combat in mind, including this year's restructure of the Bow combat style and the now-finally-released Horizon Walker tree. These changes weren't made in a vacuum, but with intent regarding where we were headed. With Horizon Walker out, we're observing the overall ranged ecosystem and will continue to make changes as needed. That said, we have had no indication that we need to change IPS further, and have seen many indicators that the change to IPS is having the exact effect on Ranged gameplay that we'd intended. No plans to change it at this time.

Thank you for replying!

1. That's great - two thumbs up.
2. Great again - I'd much rather have an ability I can use every 20 sec that I know will work rather than a button I can hit every 6 seconds where I don't know if it's actually going to go off or not.
3. As someone else said, if the choice is between an extension+nerf or leaving it alone, I think it should be left alone, but just know that the duration isn't helping the playability of the tree. I know there is a fine line between "engaged" and "chore", and maybe the "chore" bar is lower for me than many but somehow I doubt it. Then again, after playing the tree for a few weeks maybe I'll get used to the tempo of active abilities and it will feel natural. I'm going to play Horizon Walker for at least 2-3 weeks to give it a legitimate shot, and play a variety of difficulties at cap (plus raids) to see how it feels there. I suspect it will feel good in epics when I have the Core 6 ability, but for now I've gone back to using T5 DWS for reliability and power.

Re: IPS: I appreciate that IPS wasn't nerfed in a vacuum, and I know you guys have even more changes in the works with the ED update (which I'm sure will alter the landscape further), but as another poster noted, since the single-target DPS for other styles (e.g. GXB, repeater, and even Inquisitive) hasn't been enhanced the way it has been for bows (and to a lesser extent throwers) those styles are basically dead in end-game play. The release of Artificer and interesting options for repeater builds is what actually brought me back to the game many years ago after I had basically stopped playing, and I've had a soft spot repeaters ever since. I'd love to be able to play one again as more than "flavor." I think un-nerfing IPS would open up options for ranged styles, but I'll stop beating this drum now.

Anyway, as I said before, I'm going to play HW for a few weeks and see how it goes, since I know it takes time to settle into a new playstyle. Right now I feel cautiously hopeful. I'll update my impressions/notes after settling in.

[Vish]

My understanding, and general observation
Is that bow users suck
Not gonna tr into a bow build
Pulled a aeriana in dnd today
Nom.

Oh I amend that. They are needed in certain spots.
Irk in pn and pillars in lob

[nateusmaximus]

My understanding, and general observation
Is that bow users suck
Not gonna tr into a bow build

That's not true in the slightest - certain bow BUILDS got nerfed to the ground, but bows in general are in a better place than they have been in years. Moreover, they can be very powerful in end-game and fun to level. If you're a "big number Andy" you'll love bows, and if you love being top of the kill count, you'll also love bows. It's just that pure ranger coupled with Tier 5 + Core 6 Deep Woods Stalker was basically the only way to really play bows effectively up until Horizon Walker came out (after Monkcher got gutted). As I said before, I'm cautiously optimistic HW will provide a viable alternative to going T5+C6 DWS, and it will certainly open up a lot of other classes to effective bow use. Try it out! It will take some getting used to, but you just might love it.

[Marshal_Lannes]

I found the same thing as the other poster, and I said as much back on the Lama forums...HW is entirely dependent on those AF stacks to do any meaningful damage. And while it might be intended that HW is a single-target bow tree using the single-target AF stance...the only builds that can get any meaningful use out of IPS are Inqui and endgame Throwers, just through sheer massive volume of fire, being able to spray and pray fast enough through enough targets to make up for the lost DPS.

This is not true. HW is not at all dependent on AF stacks to do meaningful damage. HW is capable of doing lots of damage with IPS or with a first shot marked target/manyshot without any AF built up.

Per the OP list - No Step Missed recharges faster when you're using IPS. I don't know if this is working as intended or not. When I'm in IPS I'm always at 4/5. When I'm in AF I'm at 2/3. All the cooldowns are fine with me. Tying displacement to manyshot was brilliant since it's organic and you don't have to think about it. I don't use Misty Step well enough yet to comment on it. That's a part of the tree I haven't gotten skilled at yet but I sort of knew that going with the tumble button also being an awkward hit.

[Steelstar]

Per the OP list - No Step Missed recharges faster when you're using IPS. I don't know if this is working as intended or not.

Yes, that is intended. Rolling against more targets is more chances to vorpal and therefore recharge.

[draven1]

Some impressions after playing HW :

1. Single target focused
Very bad for level 1-29, very slow leveling vs multiple mobs
You can use IPS, but, the tree have very little synergy for IPS, except for dex trance.

2. Very slow play style
Even for endgame R10, Mark, gaining AF, readying multishot, Hunt's End, CCing some mobs require very intensive micro-management, and it slows you down very much.
When 1 key press can bring multiple mobs death(instakill spells), these micro-management would be meaningless. Those instakill casters DOESN'T require micro-management at all.
To gain AF, you need to stand still for 6+ sec. But, it is shorter than most mob fights in R10. Most mobs won't last for 6+ sec even for R10.

If Hunter's Focus would proc on 3 ~ 5 sec, it would be nice.
And Hunter's Focus need "visual feedback" on Character, not on buff-bar.
When in the battle, seeing buff-bar and battle itself for every 6 sec made me very distracted.


3. Very high single target DPS
It has very high potential for single target DPS, but, it requires so many prepared conditions.
Mark, high stack AF, checking not on cooldown on burst damage skill like Hunt's End, not aggroed, so you can take still position to open up fire.

[Tlorrd]

Some impressions after playing HW :

1. Single target focused
Very bad for level 1-29, very slow leveling vs multiple mobs
You can use IPS, but, the tree have very little synergy for IPS, except for dex trance.

2. Very slow play style
Even for endgame R10, Mark, gaining AF, readying multishot, Hunt's End, CCing some mobs require very intensive micro-management, and it slows you down very much.
When 1 key press can bring multiple mobs death(instakill spells), these micro-management would be meaningless. Those instakill casters DOESN'T require micro-management at all.
To gain AF, you need to stand still for 6+ sec. But, it is shorter than most mob fights in R10. Most mobs won't last for 6+ sec even for R10.

If Hunter's Focus would proc on 3 ~ 5 sec, it would be nice.
And Hunter's Focus need "visual feedback" on Character, not on buff-bar.
When in the battle, seeing buff-bar and battle itself for every 6 sec made me very distracted.


3. Very high single target DPS
It has very high potential for single target DPS, but, it requires so many prepared conditions.
Mark, high stack AF, checking not on cooldown on burst damage skill like Hunt's End, not aggroed, so you can take still position to open up fire.

Agree with most of what you said. I guess the only caveat is that from level 20+ you will potentially have 6 manyshot charges (3 from feat, 2 from HW cap, and 1 filigree set) ... 6 manyshot charges/15 secs is pretty sick considering you have a crit multi of x9 for those. 3 shots of potential crit x9 on IPS and 6 times in a row. that seems pretty heavy to me.

[sigtrent]

skillful use of tab-targeting or manual aiming, and precise timing. And for all that effort you get....-20% damage

But if you hit two mobs, you get 100% more damage per shot... Well 80X2 so 160% which is more than 120% and if you hit three.....

You can have both stances and just switch depending on what style is more useful at the time.

[NeMMaNjaO]

It's by far worst leveling build i ever played, 0 aoe slow in clearing trash. Single target dps is amazing but if you solo/pug like me it's awful build. Every quest take 2x-3x more then on any normal build. Compared to inquisitor is trash. I've done 100+pl and never expirienced such a pain as leveling horizon walker build. Parked at 13 atm need break week or two to cool down and try to make it to cap without breaking keyboard. I don't recommend this tree

[Oliphant]

Yeah I level with more DWS going but the HW Tier 1 Opening shot helps at low levels actually.