Current State of Epic Defensive Fighting

[FuryFlash]

As recently published in the Update 39 Patch 2 Release Notes, the Epic Defensive Fighting feat is being released to live servers. Here is the final version of the feat, notably unchanged from the latest Lamannia feedback:

We are introducing some changes to help melee builds survive in Epic and more difficult content. This is a first step in a longer process to add features that will be generally available to anyone, with changes that target specific classes or builds, such as the Barbarian changes listed below.

Epic Defensive Fighting - Your hero has learned to enter a reactive state, protecting themselves in the chaos of battle by rolling with the punches, but this hampers their ability to engage ranged threats.
This is a new Epic Feat automatically granted at level 21. This is a toggled ability that when active:

Adds a 5% Competence Bonus to maximum Hit Points, with an additional 5% for every combat fighting style feat you have, to a maximum of 25%. The applicable feats are:

• Single Weapon Fighting
• Improved Single Weapon Fighting
• Greater Single Weapon Fighting
• Perfect Single Weapon Fighting

• Two Handed Fighting
• Improved Two Handed Fighting
• Greater Two Handed Fighting
• Perfect Two Handed Fighting

• Two Weapon Fighting
• Improved Two Weapon Fighting
• Greater Two Weapon Fighting
• Perfect Two Weapon Fighting

• Natural Fighting (Counts each time taken)

Restrictions:
All Spell or spell-like abilities that are affected by Metamagics have their range reduced to touch range.
Your Doubleshot and Ranged Power are zero while active.
This feat is exclusive from Range stances, such as Improved Precise Shot, Archers Focus, Shiradi stances, and Warlock Blast stances.
This feat is exclusive from the Enlarge Spell Metamagic toggle.
This feat remains active when dead.
The feat can be used with other defensive and offensive stances, in addition to Rage.

What are your thoughts on these changes? Specifically, are you happy with the current implementation of the Epic Defensive Fighting feat? (Poll Question)

[kuzka111]

so melee survivability is give all better fighter stance (25%) and fighter will get 5% more and 3 ap less to use on stance right? hm... just great (sarcasm)

and 2nd thing nerf to power surge. Yes nerf bc atm i got 14 power surge(without capstone , with item i could have 17) and you offer 8 with capstone... awsome...


so tell me is fighter that much op then other melee? or you just hate him?


monk's are op now and then get 25% hp boost
barb will have 25% more hp and 14% reduction
ranger and rogue get 25% more hp

fighter get 5% and power surge nerf AWSOME IDEA! ( sarcasm)

and yes i play fighter i got all plx3 (129 past lifes) i got 78 reaper ap and without cc or good healer im dead , even with healer and some good champ im dead (1 shoted) and you give fighter 5% hp more...

[cru121]

Current state of Epic Defensive Fighting is.. the feat is not live yet. Personally I first want to run some quests with it and whine later.

[Kalapurka]

so melee survivability is give all better fighter stance (25%) and fighter will get 5% more and 3 ap less to use on stance right? hm... just great (sarcasm)

and 2nd thing nerf to power surge. Yes nerf bc atm i got 14 power surge(without capstone , with item i could have 17) and you offer 8 with capstone... awsome...


so tell me is fighter that much op then other melee? or you just hate him?


monk's are op now and then get 25% hp boost
barb will have 25% more hp and 14% reduction
ranger and rogue get 25% more hp

fighter get 5% and power surge nerf AWSOME IDEA! ( sarcasm)

and yes i play fighter i got all plx3 (129 past lifes) i got 78 reaper ap and without cc or good healer im dead , even with healer and some good champ im dead (1 shoted) and you give fighter 5% hp more...

That's awesome :^)

[Kalapurka]

This means 8 more strength and 5%hp to my 2h-pure paladin , next time I'm trying barbarian, awesome changes

Your friend Kalapurka

[janave]

I just look at the description of the feat, and it is not hard to tell it is wrong, ..when you have to use that much logic for a feat that grants passive hp bonus..

[kmoustakas]

I just switched my build from bear to wolf in preparation for this feat to go live. I'll have the same bonus hp, I will loose +6 con but save 9 AP which will be put to great use elsewhere and I'm no longer confined to use a shield. I think this change punishes builds that gear towards survivability and rewards dps builds that'll simply now get free hp. That sounds to me like the exact opposite of what we should be doing and

(I'm repeating myself here unfortunatelly)

The problem is not player hp, it's monsters one shotting people with 2k-3k hp in reaper (or doublestrike 5k-6k hp people). It's AC not playing a role anymore unless you go all in. Epic elite will now be easy mode, anything under epic elite will be lolatog aka for casuals only. Reaper will remain exactly the same because pure dps will still get one shotted and tank or defend+dps don't see any changes.

[Anaximandroz]

I think the Devs are missing the point, the dichotomy isn't melee x ranged/casters, is avoidance x mitigation builds (a possible side effect of designing for "oh shi**" moments) and how more easier is to avoidance build splash in some mitigation. A monk can easily have half the bonus of a heavy armored fighter, How much evasion can someone in heavy armor have (even harder since there isn't any named half-plate). Which is worst in reaper since melee divines in D&D have default less dps then other classes to balance the self healing negated by reaper.

[Annex]

I was unable to test this on the preview server so I will need a week or two to try this out on all my characters. I can only offer my initial thoughts as a sucky solo player.

My L21 Rogue Assassin Avatar in Unyielding Sentinel jumps from 1,033 to 1,205 Hit Points. That will definitely help me survive in a larger number of Epic Hard dungeons. I doubt it will keep me alive in Epic Elite/Epic Reaper Mode 1 when I get swarmed.

My L21 Sword and Shield Fighter in Unyielding Sentinel with 1,351 Hit Points gains nothing from the new stance. Using Stalwart Defense or Epic Defensive Fighting she has exactly the same number of Hit Points. I am fine with that. I can either leave her with a Shield for more Effective Hit Points and better defenses at cost of damage output or I can switch her to Two Weapon Fighting, use the new stance, and lose some Effective Hit Points but not as many as before.

My L21 Sword and Shield Cleric in Unyielding Sentinel jumps from 1,088 to 1,179 Hit Points. When playing solo I will use the stance. If my friends ever return and I play in a group I will drop it, hang back, and heal, which is fine. The extra 91 Hit Points will not allow her to move up in Difficulty.

My second L21 Rogue Assassin Character in Unyielding Sentinel jumps from 916 to 1,069 Hit Points. In Shadowdancer she jumps from 472 to 566 Hit Points. Unfortunately, she lacks the Physical Resistance Rating and Armor Class of my Avatar so she will still get squished in Epic Hard dungeons regardless of Destiny.

My third L21 Rogue Assassin Character who does not have a Destiny jumps from 439 to 526 Hit Points. That may seem like peanuts but it actually represents a huge jump in her ability to survive because, from experience, it moves her out of one and two shot range for many Epic Normal dungeons. For example, a 360 point Disintegrate or Horrid Wilting will no longer leave her at the brink of death.

The extra hit points are nice but I am not expecting any of my characters to move up in Difficulty. I would need 400 or 500 Hit Points (and some Epic Past Life Feats) for that.

[Zretch]

I think the Devs are missing the point, the dichotomy isn't melee x ranged/casters, is avoidance x mitigation builds (a possible side effect of designing for "oh shi**" moments) and how more easier is to avoidance build splash in some mitigation. A monk can easily have half the bonus of a heavy armored fighter, How much evasion can someone in heavy armor have (even harder since there isn't any named half-plate). Which is worst in reaper since melee divines in D&D have default less dps then other classes to balance the self healing negated by reaper.

I don't think they're missing the point, I think they have a different point than you. Their point is that ranged / casters can kite, while melee DPS cannot. Also, ranged / casters aren't subject to cleaves that happen in melee even if you don't have agro (think Orthons).

Anything that allows melee DPS to survive that also allows ranged / casters to more easily and more safely kite is a non-starter, because they think kiting is already far too easy in the game, as anyone who has backpedaled / jumped around like a crazy person to avoid being splatted can attest.

There's different ways to handle it, but some of those (possibly many of them) require complete overhauls to the defensive implementation of the game (one of the big ones is what you are referencing in how easy it is to pump mitigation even wearing pajamas). I think the hitpoint buff was low hanging fruit.

[Grace_ana]

I don't think they're missing the point, I think they have a different point than you. Their point is that ranged / casters can kite, while melee DPS cannot. Also, ranged / casters aren't subject to cleaves that happen in melee even if you don't have agro (think Orthons).

Anything that allows melee DPS to survive that also allows ranged / casters to more easily and more safely kite is a non-starter, because they think kiting is already far too easy in the game, as anyone who has backpedaled / jumped around like a crazy person to avoid being splatted can attest.

There's different ways to handle it, but some of those (possibly many of them) require complete overhauls to the defensive implementation of the game (one of the big ones is what you are referencing in how easy it is to pump mitigation even wearing pajamas). I think the hitpoint buff was low hanging fruit.

In which case it shouldn't have included nerfing cross-healing party members.

[Annex]

When this change went live, the first thing I tested was the range at which my Rogue Assassin avatar could throw Cocoon while in the new stance. To my surprise, I could throw a Cocoon from 15 or 20 in game feet. When I used to play with my friends, I estimate I threw about 80% of my heals from that range. My Rogue Assassin can still serve as an off healer using Cocoon and Heal scrolls while staying outside Cleave range. In many ways, it reminds me of playing a Lore-mistress in The Lord of the Rings Online. That class relies on a short range heal over time skill for the bulk of healing so this new mode of play feels comfortable for me. Anyway, my initial impression is that the, "Oh no, I can no longer heal!", cries were at least somewhat overblown. However, I need to try it out in actual group play before making a final judgement.

[nokowi]

In which case it shouldn't have included nerfing cross-healing party members.

I can see that this promotes cooperation, but if I were to design a system where everyone can contribute and cooperate I would let people with divine classes handle cross healing, and let people that don't want to do this pick non divine classes - consistent with D&D lore.

[Domince]

for what they were trying to do I think it wasnt a great attempt, in the end at 30 most people they are trying to help will only get get a few hundred extra hit points which is a hit or two more, really wont do much to sway game balance as others think that it will drastically impact the game.

[glmfw1]

I can see that this promotes cooperation, but if I were to design a system where everyone can contribute and cooperate I would let people with divine classes handle cross healing, and let people that don't want to do this pick non divine classes - consistent with D&D lore.

Given that Reaper prevents divine classes from keeping themselves alive and Clerics, going by D&D Lore, are generally on the front lines, they will need someone else to do that for them, and this feat makes that more difficult (toggle off, lose bonus HP, try to heal up the cleric, die before cleric is healed, cleric dies). In trying to address a problem, it misses the boat on helping those who need most help.

[nokowi]

Given that Reaper prevents divine classes from keeping themselves alive and Clerics, going by D&D Lore, are generally on the front lines, they will need someone else to do that for them, and this feat makes that more difficult (toggle off, lose bonus HP, try to heal up the cleric, die before cleric is healed, cleric dies). In trying to address a problem, it misses the boat on helping those who need most help.

I think you could reasonably play a healer not in the front lines, and still enjoy cooperative play.

I think you could also play the same way you do right now, without the toggle.

I (pure rogue) solo'd some epic R1's with 2-3 year old gear and no self healing ability or stealth. I don't think melee cleric is excluded from reaper - with AOE's, cc, and self healing they should have a huge advantage over my solo play. With newer gear, or in heroics, it should be quite easy.

[Vooduspyce]

The devs got bamboozled by the forum warriors.

[noobodyfool]

This is a first step in a longer process to add features that will be generally available to anyone, with changes that target specific classes or builds, such as the Barbarian changes listed below.

If your happy with Barbarian than you will be happy with Fighter, Pally and Shield Warriors in the future changes to come, this is being done one step at a time.

[TitusOvid]

There were no noticeable changes from the lama feedback. I ask myself why me and others waste our time testing new features for the devs?! You lost my support on that. I won't waste my time anymore.

This is a first step in a longer process to add features that will be generally available to anyone, with changes that target specific classes or builds, such as the Barbarian changes listed below.

If your happy with Barbarian than you will be happy with Fighter, Pally and Shield Warriors in the future changes to come, this is being done one step at a time.

You have no idea what will come unless you got some insider information. I won't celebrate before anything goes live. You'd be a fool -pardon the pun - if you break out the bubbly just now.

[Fallout47]

The devs got bamboozled by the forum warriors.

/signed