U50 Preview 2: New Universal Enhancement Tree: Horizon Walker

[slarden]

What's the purpose of Fighter? Bows are ki weapons with Zen Archery, and even just 6 Ranger provides you enough extra feats. You're leaving a ton of damage on the floor not going Rogue. And you only need 1 monk for the stance.

Very few people are interested in push raiding and even fewer build for it. There are many reasons to choose ranger levels over a little extra sneak damage if you are looking for versatility vs. max dps. Max dps only really matters in push raiding where you run with mostly the same people and don't have to worry about anything but max dps.

Even for someone pugging R10s they are probably better off adding a little survivability and healing over max dps because groups don't really have any problem taking down bosses, but being able to throw better heals at the party (and esp a divine) can prevent deaths. When R10s are short-manned or pugged without the right roles versatility wins every time.

I don't disagree with your approach at all as it fits the purpose you are building for, but most people are building for something completely different and it might actually be to their detriment to sacrifice versatility for a little more dps.

[Carpone]

There are many reasons to choose ranger levels over a little extra sneak damage if you are looking for versatility vs. max dps.

Like what? 12 ranger nets you +1 SA dice, 1 FE, Evasion, IPS, 10% fort bypass and +10 Listen compared to only 6 levels. 13 Rogue SA dice eclipse 12 Ranger damage benefits, has the same fort bypass, nets Improved Evasion and there are enough feat slots for IPS with just 6 Ranger. Corner/Banish the Quarry DC is 116 without Wild Instincts, which should be highly effective with the -16 saves to Legendary mobs in U50.

Very few people are interested in push raiding and even fewer build for it. Max dps only really matters in push raiding where you run with mostly the same people and don't have to worry about anything but max dps.

Here we are two years after THTH's release, and I frequently hear about other guilds failing LH on Khyber and Orien. When you ask the five "whys?" to get to the root of the problem, it comes down to subpar build and gear choices. DPS roles can't do their job effectively.

I've raided in static groups where most people adopted the jack-of-all-trades approach rather than focus on their primary role. Can you say a 66min R1 KT where most had Reaper wings? R1 Shroud with dozens of deaths. Painful and embarrassing.

Even for someone pugging R10s they are probably better off adding a little survivability and healing over max dps

I look at it a little differently with reaper rule zero: Don't get one shot. If you are, then by all means add to survivability until you aren't.

When R10s are short-manned or pugged without the right roles versatility wins every time.

Eh, designing for edge cases is already suboptimal. I've been the primary healer in R10s as a 20 Ranger. I did it for the "achievement unlocked" status. I wouldn't recommend it though.

I don't disagree with your approach at all as it fits the purpose you are building for, but most people are building for something completely different and it might actually be to their detriment to sacrifice versatility for a little more dps.

By all means, people should play the game however they want. But we fundamentally disagree in build approach. In my experience at all levels of the game, DPS solves all problems.

[slarden]

Like what? 12 ranger nets you +1 SA dice, 1 FE, Evasion, IPS, 10% fort bypass and +10 Listen compared to only 6 levels. 13 Rogue SA dice eclipse 12 Ranger damage benefits, has the same fort bypass, nets Improved Evasion and there are enough feat slots for IPS with just 6 Ranger. Corner/Banish the Quarry DC is 116 without Wild Instincts, which should be highly effective with the -16 saves to Legendary mobs in U50.


Here we are two years after THTH's release, and I frequently hear about other guilds failing LH on Khyber and Orien. When you ask the five "whys?" to get to the root of the problem, it comes down to subpar build and gear choices. DPS roles can't do their job effectively.

I've raided in static groups where most people adopted the jack-of-all-trades approach rather than focus on their primary role. Can you say a 66min R1 KT where most had Reaper wings? R1 Shroud with dozens of deaths. Painful and embarrassing.


I look at it a little differently with reaper rule zero: Don't get one shot. If you are, then by all means add to survivability until you aren't.


Eh, designing for edge cases is already suboptimal. I've been the primary healer in R10s as a 20 Ranger. I did it for the "achievement unlocked" status. I wouldn't recommend it though.

By all means, people should play the game however they want. But we fundamentally disagree in build approach. In my experience at all levels of the game, DPS solves all problems.

You seem to be missing the point that most people don't participate and have zero interest in push raiding. Your example of reaper Killing Time and Too Hot Too Handle are the edge cases I already acknowledged buliding for max dps makes sense.

As I said I understand why you are building the way you are - I do the same for reaper raiding. Outside of that small niche max dps isn't needed and doesn't solve any problems - groups are crushing R10s. Our 3-man casual group crushes R10 with one tank, one caster for cc and one dps and the dps is a second-lifer pure 20 bow ranger. We crush it. Adding a few sneak dice isn't going to improve anything, but removing his heals would make things worse for sure as we all rely on each other for cross-healing.

There are many other aspects of the game and while I agree 100% that max dps and min/maxing for dps roles in push raiding is essential, it's not as important in other parts of the game.

So we agree fully the way you are building for what you run makes sense. When offering build advice to others I think it's important to understand what they run and what issues they run into so the build can be tailored to their playstyle and needs. Maximum DPS is rarely going to be the right answer outside of reaper raiding at end game and some static groups. I also think having alot of hp and prr from grinds can distort the benefit of building for things besides dps as they are so impactful and allow for alot of compromises. Most people I run across in public raids don't have as much hp and prr from grinds.

[Merrillman]

@STEELSTAR — I’m writing this here in the hopes to get any developers attention to address something past u50. I would like to see the devs DIRECTLY (no sidestepping the Q, no ambiguous answers please) answer the following questions when the time comes you’ve gotten past 50, and once again will talk about 51:

1. Explain in EXACT DETAIL whether there is actually a 1:1 power reduction for DPS casters vs (specifically) mobs AND bosses. It feels VERY disproportionate. Give actual numbers and % nerf to spell effectiveness and costs vs before.

2. With the stat nerf, it now costs a much larger % of spell points vs spell point pool total, meaning every spell is relatively more expensive, and “backdoor” reduces damage output further. Will you reduce spell costs to compensate for this loss, and, if so, will you pledge a 1:1 proportional change?

3. Since caster trees are not out, it’s hard to tell if you’ve ruined the game for me, so please provide caster trees/DPS caster info ASAP.

4. Ive already seen a half dozen people leave the game that I play with, perhaps permanently. I also am no longer spending money and withholding until all info is available any spend in DDOP, and cannot in good conscience buy any further packs until I know you haven’t destroyed the only kind of character I like to play. I’m not interested in splashing or trying something new. It took over 4 years of grinding to get viable and I do not have the will to do it again. I want to have specific, real and honest feedback and no ducking of the hard questions. It seems like SSG has a vendetta against DPS casters, given the spell nerfs, rl nerfs, and the disproportionate DPS caster nerfs (seemingly) vs other DPS. Don’t say balance. It will just come off as a catch all nonsense answer that is just an excuse to avoid saying how bad the changes are for DPS casters. Be HONEST.

5. Do not under any circumstances limit to 3 trees and do NOT gate through required point spend in a tree. I don’t want to spend 20 points just to get something I used to twist in. It should ONLY work like twists where you can pick anything from any tree except maybe capstones. Maybe make level 5 & 6 abilities gated but leave the 1-4 levels ungated through point spend.

6. SCALE RAIDS FOR FEWER PEOPLE. I am on a low pop server and can wait 2-3 hours (or wait forever) before ever even STARTING. This is unacceptable and prevents me from ever doing things like shroud or any other raids and getting gear. MERGE SERVERS if you have to. 20 people on a server at a time is a huge problem.

7. Change Greensteel access. PLEASE!!!!!!! Put LGS crafting somewhere other than in the raid. It’s has driven me nuts for years I can not get access even though I have all but the large ingredients because I can NEVER find a raid group. Having tier 1 & 2 LGS is still worth having even if I can’t get tier 3.

[Tlorrd]

@STEELSTAR — I’m writing this here in the hopes to get any developers attention to address something past u50. I would like to see the devs DIRECTLY (no sidestepping the Q, no ambiguous answers please) answer the following questions when the time comes you’ve gotten past 50, and once again will talk about 51:

1. Explain in EXACT DETAIL whether there is actually a 1:1 power reduction for DPS casters vs (specifically) mobs AND bosses. It feels VERY disproportionate. Give actual numbers and % nerf to spell effectiveness and costs vs before.

2. With the stat nerf, it now costs a much larger % of spell points vs spell point pool total, meaning every spell is relatively more expensive, and “backdoor” reduces damage output further. Will you reduce spell costs to compensate for this loss, and, if so, will you pledge a 1:1 proportional change?

3. Since caster trees are not out, it’s hard to tell if you’ve ruined the game for me, so please provide caster trees/DPS caster info ASAP.

4. Ive already seen a half dozen people leave the game that I play with, perhaps permanently. I also am no longer spending money and withholding until all info is available any spend in DDOP, and cannot in good conscience buy any further packs until I know you haven’t destroyed the only kind of character I like to play. I’m not interested in splashing or trying something new. It took over 4 years of grinding to get viable and I do not have the will to do it again. I want to have specific, real and honest feedback and no ducking of the hard questions. It seems like SSG has a vendetta against DPS casters, given the spell nerfs, rl nerfs, and the disproportionate DPS caster nerfs (seemingly) vs other DPS. Don’t say balance. It will just come off as a catch all nonsense answer that is just an excuse to avoid saying how bad the changes are for DPS casters. Be HONEST.

5. Do not under any circumstances limit to 3 trees and do NOT gate through required point spend in a tree. I don’t want to spend 20 points just to get something I used to twist in. It should ONLY work like twists where you can pick anything from any tree except maybe capstones. Maybe make level 5 & 6 abilities gated but leave the 1-4 levels ungated through point spend.

6. SCALE RAIDS FOR FEWER PEOPLE. I am on a low pop server and can wait 2-3 hours (or wait forever) before ever even STARTING. This is unacceptable and prevents me from ever doing things like shroud or any other raids and getting gear. MERGE SERVERS if you have to. 20 people on a server at a time is a huge problem.

7. Change Greensteel access. PLEASE!!!!!!! Put LGS crafting somewhere other than in the raid. It’s has driven me nuts for years I can not get access even though I have all but the large ingredients because I can NEVER find a raid group. Having tier 1 & 2 LGS is still worth having even if I can’t get tier 3.

A couple points since you're making some demands yourself ...

You need to pick your battles. You should post this in the appropriate thread or on discord. My $ is on you not getting a response unfortunately because there are a few points you make worth discussing ... Like having crafting outside of quests, specifically LGS and magma forge. Server merge could be another debate. Scaling raids is an interesting idea at least .... Although technically you can shortman a lot raids already ... There's even a few DDO players that solo/duo lots of raids.

Good luck with your questions ... I'd suggest taking a different tone/route to make your voice heard.

[donblas]

@STEELSTAR — I’m writing this here in the hopes to get any developers attention to address something past u50..[and a whole lot more]

Did any of that have anything to do with Horizon walker?

I'm sure there are appropriate threads for this elsewhere.

[FixBows]

What's your feat list?

Honestly, I am tired of posting my builds only to have SSG nerf what I am doing. So, if you want my build you need to know where to find it, as it is posted (just not on these forums).

That being said, I am happy with my build. I understand it is not max dps, but it is still solid dps. I am also very happy with my ability to paralyze, fear, ottos arrow, use bird attacks to control my enemies, and keep myself alive and well. Amazingly, there is more than one way to play. There is a best for you build and a best for me build. I am glad we both found our happy place.

[Carpone]

What a copout from someone named "FixBows". I literally wrote the bow build guide with every little nuance exposed for the world to see, but you're concerned your niche 36 Enchantment DC build is going to get nerfed.

And it's not posted "in that other forum" either.

[FixBows]

What a copout from someone named "FixBows". I literally wrote the bow build guide with every little nuance exposed for the world to see, but you're concerned your niche 36 Enchantment DC build is going to get nerfed.

And it's not posted "in that other forum" either.

First of all, you did not write 'the' bow build guide, you wrote YOUR bow build guide as there are many, many ways to run an archer and single target dps is just one of those ways. Also, I didn't say "that other forum" if you are referring to the one that full of pre-teen angst and nerd rage about anything and everything that is not posted by 1 of the 5 'accepted' players. And call it a copout, but my last posted build on this site got directly nerfed so I am done. I am done with a lot of things in this game actually. SSG doesn't listen when it comes to bows. Nothing against you as you have a fine build for you. I am really tired of 15+ years of Turbine/SSG bow hate, so I am just done; and I am done with posting my builds for them to nerf. Just be at peace with the knowledge that your build works for you and stop trying to force it down everyone's throats. It is obvious you are passionate about your build and that is fine; but not everyone needs to, or will, agree...

[FixBows]

What a copout from someone named "FixBows". I literally wrote the bow build guide with every little nuance exposed for the world to see, but you're concerned your niche 36 Enchantment DC build is going to get nerfed.

And it's not posted "in that other forum" either.

One other thing since I cannot edit my post.... Yes, I am concerned with my niche build considering Severlin himself said that paralyze builds maybe a bit too powerful. That statement was made during one of the dev chat things that Cordo hosts. So, yeah... .

[Arkat]

One other thing since I cannot edit my post.... Yes, I am concerned with my niche build considering Severlin himself said that paralyze builds maybe a bit too powerful. That statement was made during one of the dev chat things that Cordo hosts. So, yeah... .

Where and when did he say that?

Lnk plz.

[FixBows]

Where and when did he say that?

Lnk plz.

One of the conversations with Cordovan I think... I am sure your Google skills can find it. It was around update 49/50 time frame as it was discussing bow changes.

[FixBows]

One of the conversations with Cordovan I think... I am sure your Google skills can find it. It was around update 49/50 time frame as it was discussing bow changes.

Found it:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/9955493...ives&sort=time

Around the 8:30 mark. "Some builds are REALLY effective like AA paralyzing shot with precise shot (assuming he meant improved precise shot) can keep a lot of stuff locked down; its very effective and will continue to be effective... and we will look at how effective it needs to be..." He goes on and I will paraphrase...we don't want to nerf spells, so if you see any of that let us know.

That pretty much sums up what I (and probably others) have long theorized is an issue for the devs. Never mind the extreme build requirements that are need to actually land a paralyzing shot before the nerfs to procs (now worse), but offers up the no nerf policy to caster spells / effectiveness. The bow bias starts at the top.

[Tlorrd]

Found it:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/9955493...ives&sort=time

Around the 8:30 mark. "Some builds are REALLY effective like AA paralyzing shot with precise shot (assuming he meant improved precise shot) can keep a lot of stuff locked down; its very effective and will continue to be effective... and we will look at how effective it needs to be..." He goes on and I will paraphrase...we don't want to nerf spells, so if you see any of that let us know.

That pretty much sums up what I (and probably others) have long theorized is an issue for the devs. Never mind the extreme build requirements that are need to actually land a paralyzing shot before the nerfs to procs (now worse), but offers up the no nerf policy to caster spells / effectiveness. The bow bias starts at the top.

It's not very hard to build an enchantment focused bow build that can heal also and have decent DPS. MC Cleric/x with appropriate domain for enchantment DCs ... depending on your MC splash you'll have feats freed up to take more things that benefit your enchantment DCs. You go Wis based with Falconry to have nice attacks with your AA tree. Thus you scale as much stuff as possible off a single stat.

[FixBows]

It's not very hard to build an enchantment focused bow build that can heal also and have decent DPS. MC Cleric/x with appropriate domain for enchantment DCs ... depending on your MC splash you'll have feats freed up to take more things that benefit your enchantment DCs. You go Wis based with Falconry to have nice attacks with your AA tree. Thus you scale as much stuff as possible off a single stat.

Way to skip over the alarming part of the post...

[Merrillman]

Did any of that have anything to do with Horizon walker?

I'm sure there are appropriate threads for this elsewhere.

The entire point on writing here is because they either don’t see it or don’t answer on the “appropriate” threads. Literally that’s the entire point of the first sentence. The “tone” is pleading to get answers, because they have not answered, and, frankly, I believe until proven wrong that they are “ducking” the questions people have. Be honest. Be forthcoming. I would like to continue playing. I just don’t see how I can spend another $ until I know the game is not broken for DPS casters. I’ll put it on every thread until I get an actual answer. If they answer, I’ll have zero to complain about. As of yet? NADA.

[FixBows]

I just don’t see how I can spend another $ until I know the game is not broken for DPS casters. I’ll put it on every thread until I get an actual answer. If they answer, I’ll have zero to complain about. As of yet? NADA.

So you mean you won't spend any more money if casters become broken like the long list of broken characters in this game? Not poking fun at you or your post, it just seems funny as I think about the list of unusable mechanics and character builds that keeps getting longer and longer with this game every 'update'. Not long from now, they will update themselves out of business. I think Severlin described lag as "1000 tiny cuts", that is how I think of this game's demise... 1000 tiny cuts of nerfs... And one huge decapitation of not fixing lag.