U51 Early Preview: Epic Destiny Revamp: Core Framework

[dkyle]

2: Returning Abilities

One of our bigger goals with this system was to complete a reorganization of some of the assorted Epic abilities into more appropriate places. This could be as complicated as moving all of the Smite Evil attacks from one tree to another, or as simple as ensuring that some cut abilities can end up somewhere appropriate. For example, the Tsunami spell is going to end up joining the Druid spell book rather than simply being removed forever. What we can do in the future is do a much better job of communicating when certain abilities will make a return, either as a feat, a class spell, or even in a new Epic Destiny down the line.

Are you reconsidering constraining the stats on Dire Charge? Is there a good reason to take this away from mental-stat melee? Especially if it's moving out of T5 (please do).

[ThomasHunter]

I’m thinking that the potential fiddly-ness of the Builder/Spender system could be summed up looking back when the Renegade Mastermaker tree was made. If I remember correctly, Unbreakable Forcefields was initially an active ability only, but after a fair amount of feedback, devs gave us passive selector there as well. That certainly fit my play style better and that is what I’ve chosen on my RM.

Happy gaming!
Taleisin

[Hawkwier]

Howdy folks! We've been hard at work reading and absorbing all of the feedback you have given us over the last week, and we wanted to share more about what we have been discussing. The following was put together by the folks working on these systems as a group, and I'm just posting their work, really:


We have more previews coming up shortly, but as a reminder, these previews are for Update 50, which is a different update than Update 51, which is the update with the Epic Destiny rework. What this means is that although we are still going to be iterating and building the ED framework behind the scenes, you won't get a chance to see it in action until likely after Update 50 launches.


So, without further ado, here's what we've got to share today:


1: Epic and Destiny feats

We started out this revamp assuming that we'd be able to proxy buff a ton of the old Epic and Destiny feats by adding in bonuses tied to the new ED abilities. It looks like we need to do more to make those feats more enticing. We can dedicate some time to revamp the lesser used options beyond making them tie in to the trees, and the tree tie-ins themselves can stand to be far punchier as well.


2: Returning Abilities

One of our bigger goals with this system was to complete a reorganization of some of the assorted Epic abilities into more appropriate places. This could be as complicated as moving all of the Smite Evil attacks from one tree to another, or as simple as ensuring that some cut abilities can end up somewhere appropriate. For example, the Tsunami spell is going to end up joining the Druid spell book rather than simply being removed forever. What we can do in the future is do a much better job of communicating when certain abilities will make a return, either as a feat, a class spell, or even in a new Epic Destiny down the line.


3: What belongs in Tier 5

A large amount of feedback thus far has been centered around the question of what belongs in tier 5. Our initial judgement was that things that were roughly tier 5 or 6 in the old destinies belonged in tier 5 of the new destinies. After this first preview, we've changed our minds considerably for quite a few abilities. Given that players will only get access to their tier 5 at level 30, we need each Tier 5 to contain either almost entirely new things or things that are too powerful to not remain exclusive, and let some tier 5/6 abilities pull downwards so that players can access them far sooner.


On that note, one of the most unexpected pieces of feedback for us was just how much love there was for the concept of an Epic Moment. With that in mind, we can do a better job ensuring that each tree has a T5 ability that matches those expectations, although we want to spend more time discussing internally before committing to that kind of redesign.


4: Monster and content difficulty

This debut on Lamannia didn't make it explicit enough that we are making big changes to the difficulty of monsters built for older Epic content quests. We're going to make sure monster stats take these changes into account. For comparison, switching a monster in older Epics to our new formulas often results in a loss of Maximum HP anywhere from 25 - 50%, depending on the individual monster's quirks. We will have more information about our monster adjustments in the next Epic Destiny Preview.


5: Ranged Power

We initially ballparked the amount of Ranged Power per core at 6. It's clear that this is not enough, so we'll be raising the Ranged Power per core to 8.


6: Builders, Spenders, and the Charge System

The overwhelming majority of the feedback has been centered on this, which is why we wanted to take some extra time and discuss our options with this system internally before committing to something. We're looking at several paths to follow, some which make the system less time sensitive, and some that cut it completely. The "charge" system as a whole is not formally necessary for this Epic Destiny overhaul, so if we need to we can move in a different direction.


7: Initial Destiny Points

A change we will be making internally that we wanted to tell you all right now about is that we will be raising the amount of Fate Points gained for each tree unlock to 3 from 2. This means that each Epic Destiny tree you unlock by speaking to the appropriate NPC will grant you 1 Permanent Destiny Points (because 3 fate points = 1 destiny point). This also means that the default starting point pool is 12 (from the 12 trees). We're going to experiment with this and see how it feels, and you'll likely get a chance to try out this higher starting point in the next Epic Destiny preview.

So, that's about it for this feedback response post right now, although we did want to end with answering a few Frequently Asked Questions just to be sure we're not making things overly confusing.


Question: Do the cores in each tree stack?

Answer: Yes! Everything but the Spell DCs specifically in each tree stacks with every other tree.

Question: What's happening to Epic Past Lives?

Answer: Every past life currently available will remain available after this overhaul. The only thing changing with Epic Past Lives is that you will get more Fate Points for your past lives. Also, going forward, you will no longer need to level up an Epic Destiny and gain Karma XP to Epic Reincarnate.

Question: Can you tell us about the other Destiny Trees you have planned?


Answer: They are thematically connected to Artificer, Alchemist, and Warlock (three classes whose mechanics and archetypes didn't get much specific love from the original ED system), and are not slated to be released in Update 51 with the initial set of 12 Epic Destinies.


Question: Are you doing this so you can build Legendary Destinies?

Answer: No, we are not. Funnily enough, the first paper draft of the epic overhaul from over a year ago involved something similar, but we opted to overhaul the current EDs instead due to internal feedback and feedback from the Player's Council. These new Destinies are built to scale with a huge number of points, and we're confident that allowing players to become more powerful within this system is a more compelling system of progression than pushing them to an entirely new one for Legendary content.

Question: Are you going to do anything about Reset Costs for the new EDs?


Answer: Yes, we are. Ideally any system doesn't completely bankrupt your character if you would like to spend your point differently. We will have more details once we finalize how the new cost to reset is structured.

Well, that's all we have for right now, although we still want to hear from you about how you feel about this overhaul. Please feel welcome to share your feedback with us!

This is encouraging. The reintroduction of epic moments and addressing the awful builder mechanic are welcome outcomes. It also looks like you're addressing mob power bloat to a greater extent than I for one had expected. Proof of the pudding will be in the eating, and there are still other items to address IMO (e.g. access to more trees to offset twist losses, and adding back some limited ability score access would be welcome), but it's a positive response, thanks.

[grudgebear]

I was skeptical about this whole thing, but I'm starting to like the way things are going.

3: What belongs in Tier 5

A large amount of feedback thus far has been centered around the question of what belongs in tier 5. Our initial judgement was that things that were roughly tier 5 or 6 in the old destinies belonged in tier 5 of the new destinies. After this first preview, we've changed our minds considerably for quite a few abilities. Given that players will only get access to their tier 5 at level 30, we need each Tier 5 to contain either almost entirely new things or things that are too powerful to not remain exclusive, and let some tier 5/6 abilities pull downwards so that players can access them far sooner.


On that note, one of the most unexpected pieces of feedback for us was just how much love there was for the concept of an Epic Moment. With that in mind, we can do a better job ensuring that each tree has a T5 ability that matches those expectations, although we want to spend more time discussing internally before committing to that kind of redesign.

I would rather see Epic Moment + 2-3 abilities from destinies and it will be enough to have active gameplay. Note that some classes have also a lot of active abilities. like bard : freezing ice, en pointe, spinning ice. that would result in total 6 abilities to use and that's quite a lot, considering you will be recasting Divine Might tool. And all that builder-spender thing should go away.

Epic Monster HP

Those darn pirates in Sentinel's chain deserve a nerf, Phiarlan too. I think Borderlands is very fairly balanced pack for 21 level adventure.

Builder UI indicators
DDO's UI is already cluttered with things, the whole builder point mechanic UI WISE was really done poorly. If you are sticking to this refer to rogue builder point indicators in WOW.

[Rykka]

In the first draft of the Epic Overhaul (the one mentioned in Cordovan's post above the question about reset costs), one of the features we considered was something similar to this, and we did investigations into the scope and cost of implementation. Unfortunately, it's colossal. It's something that could potentially be implemented someday, but is far outside the scope of what we can do as part of this Epic Destiny pass at this time.

I believe the major point of contention about the destiny respec cost is how some experienced players currently use their characters and how that could become prohibitively expensive with respec costs added.

For example you can, in the current system, be playing a DC Sorcerer for normal daily reapers, and then when joining a raid that is looking for a healer or tank, swap destinies and function as Tank or a Healer because swapping to those destinies is free and respeccing Twists is also free. Under the newer system that's not going to be an option really without a player or two in your group that provides a Cashcow service.

Of course if the goal is to get more people to level actual alt character healers and tanks that tend to be unnecessary in the current system, charging to change roles wouldn't hurt. It might at least cut down some talk about how tanks and healers are still irrelevant.

The new system might also function as a platinum sync and generate some interest in listing useful things on the plat AH rather than the ASAH, or even bothering to use Pawn traders again, but i dunno.

[Vish]

Well, my first thought was
Sorry I didn’t apply the council
Looks like a 555,
Or whatever

It’s your game
I’ll give monk a run again, even a Henshin,
And see if I care

Everything’s been said by other ppl

[Tebaco]

4# It's not really a question of HP. Okay, so Jack Jibbers goes from 40k to 100k from hard to elite. It just means killing him takes slightly longer. But it's the difficulty of hitting mobs with DC's that's really at issue. Even accounting for presumably +3 more to stats, which is another +1 DC, it's very hard already to hit the 140! DC's you need to reliably have a chance of getting spells to take effect in Sharn, which is still the hardest content.

signed

[Hawkwier]

I believe the major point of contention about the destiny respec cost is how some experienced players currently use their characters and how that could become prohibitively expensive with respec costs added.

For example you can, in the current system, be playing a DC Sorcerer for normal daily reapers, and then when joining a raid that is looking for a healer or tank, swap destinies and function as Tank or a Healer because swapping to those destinies is free and respeccing Twists is also free. Under the newer system that's not going to be an option really without a player or two in your group that provides a Cashcow service.

Of course if the goal is to get more people to level actual alt character healers and tanks that tend to be unnecessary in the current system, charging to change roles wouldn't hurt. It might at least cut down some talk about how tanks and healers are still irrelevant.

The new system might also function as a platinum sync and generate some interest in listing useful things on the plat AH rather than the ASAH, or even bothering to use Pawn traders again, but i dunno.

Yes.

Not my preferred role, but I quite often will switch from Fury to Unyielding Sentinel and do a gear set swap via the hot-bars, so I can tank a PUG raid if we are short of a "proper" tank - with 2-3 minutes of reconfig I can significantly up HP AC PRR intimidate and threat at the expense of a big chunk of DPS and can usually get bye as a tank for the team.

I don't see how that sort of relatively quick reconfiguration is going to be possible in the new trees, which will be a pity from a raid group perspective, and also as I spent a bit of time and effort planning and sourcing the tank gearset, which will effectively be made redundant (though I guess the upside is it lets me off the hook from offering to play the tank role any more! )

Not necessarily for U51, as I recognise there are more pressing priorities, but might some sort of pre-populated ED tree template be possibly considered to provide the sort of quick switching currently possible with current EDs?

[InspectorB]

Currently, a character that does not have access to "Epic Destinies" (DDO Store item) is able to gain epic xp but not Karma, and therefore cannot Epic Reincarnate at level 30. If I understand correctly, after U51, Epic Reincarnation becomes possible for such a character, since there is no Karma anymore.

Also, it sounds like the destiny points gained from ranks and levels can be accumulated without Epic Destinies access, but since there is "unlocking" involved for each destiny, I presume that they cannot be spent without (purchased) access to the specific destiny?

If yes, then I would be interested whether there are any changes planned for the Epic Destinies DDO Store item after U51? My assumption is that any new destinies will be separate DDO Store items like the universal enhancement trees are. Will the old ones remain as a bundle, or will they perhaps be available separately after U51?

[GoldyGopher]

7: Initial Destiny Points

A change we will be making internally that we wanted to tell you all right now about is that we will be raising the amount of Fate Points gained for each tree unlock to 3 from 2. This means that each Epic Destiny tree you unlock by speaking to the appropriate NPC will grant you 1 Permanent Destiny Points (because 3 fate points = 1 destiny point). This also means that the default starting point pool is 12 (from the 12 trees). We're going to experiment with this and see how it feels, and you'll likely get a chance to try out this higher starting point in the next Epic Destiny preview.

Okay, I am on vacation and had to read this a few times. At first I thought I had been out in the sun too long and had to be reading it wrong.

I think you have gone from Ludacris to Plaid with this decision. It is the exact opposite of what needs to be done with the initial fate points. We don't need more, we need far less and fate points have to be meaningful.

[QuantumFX]

4: Monster and content difficulty

This debut on Lamannia didn't make it explicit enough that we are making big changes to the difficulty of monsters built for older Epic content quests. We're going to make sure monster stats take these changes into account. For comparison, switching a monster in older Epics to our new formulas often results in a loss of Maximum HP anywhere from 25 - 50%, depending on the individual monster's quirks. We will have more information about our monster adjustments in the next Epic Destiny Preview.

Will SSG ever address the issues surrounding base level 18+ quests and reaper difficulty play?

Namely:
- Not being able to run level 18 heroic quests on Reaper at levels 20-22
- Not being able to run level 19 heroic quests on Reaper at levels 20-23

It kind of sucks to write off all that content because of decade old bad design decisions.

[Propane]

In the first draft of the Epic Overhaul (the one mentioned in Cordovan's post above the question about reset costs), one of the features we considered was something similar to this, and we did investigations into the scope and cost of implementation. Unfortunately, it's colossal. It's something that could potentially be implemented someday, but is far outside the scope of what we can do as part of this Epic Destiny pass at this time.

Sad to hear this, especially consider LOTR has this...

This is a deal breaker IMO, this is huge given the new system proposed.
Hate to suggest this, but charge DDO points for this - it is almost of must of for many of us...

Config A - Free to all
Config B- Free to VIP (or some other perk)
Config C- 2500 DDO points (or what ever)

[Tlorrd]

So couple of questions from Cordovan's and others' posts ...

1. With the new system, when you ETR ... how do you know which epic past life you will get to the get the bonus feats? Will they all be available and you get to select one?

2. The fact that you can switch between any epic destiny right now and twists without any real cost and cannot with new update is another swift kick ... at least let us set up maybe 3 different setups to be able to switch between, thus one can have a raiding setup, questing setup, and testing setup. I'd rather have free ability to switch setups like currently; but at least allow us a few preset setups to swap between.

3. Shadowdancer is basically an Assassin/Illusion tree without any true help for mechanics or acrobats other than a few low level stuff. Please come up with some cool ideas that can boost the other rogue trees. Also you cannot attain T5 by only taking "rogue" or "illusionist" enhancements alone.

4. Please read #3.

[Rykka]

What is the Tempest Ranger ED supposed to be by the way? SD? Will the SD tree powers support Strength?

[Targal]

1. Current:

Fate System: Reset is always free.
Destiny System: Changing is always free. Reset has a cost.

Fate tome: Good for Fate system.
Destiny tome: Good for Destiny system.
*not the same one at all.

2. Future patch:

Fate System: it is just a point for Destiny Point.
Destiny System: You always need to pay a cost for reset.
*two free versatility features are removed.

Fate tome: More destiny point.
Destiny tome: More destiny point.
*now it is the same feature.

3. Points to say

• You really need to do something- Build Template or Free Reset Cost.
  

  Ideally any system doesn't completely bankrupt your character if you would like to spend your point differently

  Unless it is under 10,000 pp per reset, You should never say a word bankrupt. Please don't put such a vague word. and this reset cost is already annoying in the current Enhancement system.
• Since you release Feydark exp, Destiny tome has been a certain position to enhance your ability beyond the wall. Destiny point HAS NOT the same value in U51, and the reason I bought Destiny tome(Feydark exp's real stuff) is not because of Destiny Point in U51. It was the unique one to let you go beyond the wall 24 points.
  Now you can hit 57 Destiny point(and more over later patches), 24+1 and 57+1 is not the same. My suggestion was to add an extra window in which you can put your ED one more with Destiny Tome. (*3 Base + 1 from Destiny Tome)

I think this is not enough to persuade Devs. I put more explanation.
* Points 24: You have 8 points for 5-6 tiers. You can't get them all and need to give up something.
* Points 24+1: Now 9 points for 5-6 tiers. You can get an extra special ability with 1 Destiny Point.
* So, Actually, Destiny Tome is more like 8+1 more than 24+1.

and in U51?
* Points 57: picks a lot of abilities. Tier 5 abilities are occupied already.
* Points 57+1: gets a minor ability.
* Even Points 57 can be more with more EPLs.

Is that the same really?



-------
EDIT: If you don't want max charge becomes 7 but expect that from T3 abilities(*increasing max charge) in 4 ED tress, just put a thing that the ultimate max charge is 6. then my suggestion to expand an ED max will not be the problem.

[Targal]

This is a suggestion for ED B/C/S system.

#Builder: There are options.

#1.
Now 3 stacks of charge with no cooldown time but 1s global cooldown(Think of boost charges like Smite, Turns). stacks are fully recharged every 16 seconds, and the recharge timer starts once you expand a charge(a timer appears at the debuff linebar for better visibility... or invisible buff that shows a clock-timer on your character?). If you have max-charge bonus ability from T3s, +1 max stack but +6 seconds to recharge.
(* 0: 3 charge, 16 seconds / 1: 4 charge, 22 seconds / 2: 5 charge, 28 seconds / 3: 6 charge, 34 seconds)

Technically, it is the same to use it once every 6 seconds(although 2 seconds less, but It is a grace time by consideration for bad network connection) except that you can use them in a short time.
and you need to decide which builder you use strategically.

#2.
Now 2 stacks of charge with no cooldown time but 1s global cooldown. every 6 seconds, a stack is recharged.

Not much different, but it can make players feel less being annoyed.

#3.
Now 2 stacks of charge with no cooldown time but 1s global cooldown. fully recharged every 10.

a weak version of #1. the problem is the charge's base duration.

#Charge: More duration? the current duration is kinda short. If you change Builder as #1 option, then the current duration will not be the problem.
#Spender: No particular opinion.

[noinfo]

Disclaimer

Everything seen on the preview server, Lamannia, is not final and is subject to change or removal before live release.

Greetings! This is a pretty crazy read, so buckle up!


Fate Points
There are no more Twists of Fate in this system - as players are able to branch out across up to three trees - but Fate Points still have a use. Every 3 Fate Points you've earned will contribute to 1 Permanent Destiny Point in the Epic Destiny Trees. These points are available at level 20 and can be freely spent between the trees you have slotted. If this is your first time in Epics, you will begin with a bare minimum of 24 Fate Points (from unlocking the 12 currently available trees), which means you'll start level 20 with 8 Permanent Destiny Points. This Permanent Destiny Point system is where we recapture the currently-frontloaded Destiny flow and allows us to offer playstyle-defining elements right out of the gate. The first two tiers of each tree are accessible at level 20, so you'll have quite a bit of choice and power at the start.

Fate Points also grant +2 Hitpoints and +1 Spellpoints each, starting at level 20.

You earn Fate Points in a variety of ways - from the Tomes of Fate currently available, from Epic Past Lives at the ratio of 3 Epic Past Lives to 1 Fate Point (which is an improvement, compared to 4:1 as it is currently), and from unlocking Destinies in the new system. You will no longer receive bonus Fate Points at levels 29 and 30.

The current maximum Fate Points is 43: 24 from unlocking trees + 16 from Epic Past Lives + 3 from a Tome of Fate. This means that you will start with up to 14 Permanent Destiny Points from Fate at level 20 (+1 extra Fate Point).

Epic Reincarnation
Rather than requiring Karma, Epic Reincarnation simply allows a player at level 30+ to take the Epic Past life of your choice and return to level 20.

Epic Completionist, rather than granting a Twist of Fate slot, will instead grant a flat +1 Destiny Action Point. You will also earn additional copies of Epic Completionist every 12 Epic Past Lives you earn thereafter. This means that a player with 24 Epic Past Lives will start with 2 copies of Epic Completionist, and will be able to earn 2 more as they reach the 48 total Epic Past Lives. A player with all 48 will have 4 copies of Epic Completionist, for a total of +4 Permanent Destiny Points.

This means that a player with Epic Completionist, all Epic Past Lives, the Tome of Destiny from Feywild, a +3 Tome of Fate, and all unlocked Destiny Trees, will begin level 20 with 19 Permanent Destiny Points (14 from fate, 4 from four copies of epic completionist, 1 from tome).

Sounds like a lot of power from out of no where. I see why the alts threads are firing at the moment.

Twists gave variety and were great. This just seems to miss the point and approach it with brute force in a way that I fear will come back and infect other TR systems.

TR racials gets you on your 3 race an ap point only to be spent in race tree. Thats it.
This on every 3 lives just build up over and over. Now this wont affect my main but seriously this is way overboard.
You already know how many points you want people to have at cap work around that without the brute force approach.
Use Destiny point to allow access and versatility rather than just point.
Have destiny points unlock additional trees or parts of trees or something that gives versatility over just raw points.
Remember epic pastlives already come with something attached. Respect the original intent of twists and fate and provide versatility over raw power.

[Vish]

heres another thought

theres some talk that epic destiny point
so that begs 81 points
enough for 2 20 core 6

so my thought was for legendary

if thered be some system for like a multi class core6
a level 40 toon with like a 20/20 split
two 20 core 6
i know this is heroic
but in the old diety and demigods
the heroes and dieties often were multiclassed
(edit meaning they had two or more full 20 classes)

just a thought
many would want that

[Singular]

Howdy folks! We've been hard at work reading and absorbing all of the feedback you have given us over the last week, and we wanted to share more about what we have been discussing. The following was put together by the folks working on these systems as a group, and I'm just posting their work, really:

This is welcome news! Thank you for listening and considering the feedback and thank you for letting us know.

1: Epic and Destiny feats

We started out this revamp assuming that we'd be able to proxy buff a ton of the old Epic and Destiny feats by adding in bonuses tied to the new ED abilities. It looks like we need to do more to make those feats more enticing. We can dedicate some time to revamp the lesser used options beyond making them tie in to the trees, and the tree tie-ins themselves can stand to be far punchier as well.

Also consider putting the abilities back in (like INT, STR) just so people have something to take if the fillers aren't palatable. You can always make these cost more than 1 pt since, well, they'd be fillers.

2: Returning Abilities

One of our bigger goals with this system was to complete a reorganization of some of the assorted Epic abilities into more appropriate places. This could be as complicated as moving all of the Smite Evil attacks from one tree to another, or as simple as ensuring that some cut abilities can end up somewhere appropriate. For example, the Tsunami spell is going to end up joining the Druid spell book rather than simply being removed forever. What we can do in the future is do a much better job of communicating when certain abilities will make a return, either as a feat, a class spell, or even in a new Epic Destiny down the line.

I mean, I guess. But keep in mind that how players think of where abilities should be is the system we've been using for years. It's "normal" for us.

3: What belongs in Tier 5

A large amount of feedback thus far has been centered around the question of what belongs in tier 5. Our initial judgement was that things that were roughly tier 5 or 6 in the old destinies belonged in tier 5 of the new destinies. After this first preview, we've changed our minds considerably for quite a few abilities. Given that players will only get access to their tier 5 at level 30, we need each Tier 5 to contain either almost entirely new things or things that are too powerful to not remain exclusive, and let some tier 5/6 abilities pull downwards so that players can access them far sooner.

Thank you! It's disheartening to see what we could get at lvl 20 now restricted to lvl 30, which means we don't get to use it before etring again (for much of the player base). Why not put new abilities at lvl 30?

Also, while we're on the subject of level gating, the jump from lvl 28 to 29 is ridiculous, almost a doubling of power, mainly due to items. It might be worth smoothing that out from lvls 20-28.

On that note, one of the most unexpected pieces of feedback for us was just how much love there was for the concept of an Epic Moment. With that in mind, we can do a better job ensuring that each tree has a T5 ability that matches those expectations, although we want to spend more time discussing internally before committing to that kind of redesign.

Yeah, they're enjoyable.

4: Monster and content difficulty

This debut on Lamannia didn't make it explicit enough that we are making big changes to the difficulty of monsters built for older Epic content quests. We're going to make sure monster stats take these changes into account. For comparison, switching a monster in older Epics to our new formulas often results in a loss of Maximum HP anywhere from 25 - 50%, depending on the individual monster's quirks. We will have more information about our monster adjustments in the next Epic Destiny Preview.

That's nice.

5: Ranged Power

We initially ballparked the amount of Ranged Power per core at 6. It's clear that this is not enough, so we'll be raising the Ranged Power per core to 8.

Good.

6: Builders, Spenders, and the Charge System

The overwhelming majority of the feedback has been centered on this, which is why we wanted to take some extra time and discuss our options with this system internally before committing to something. We're looking at several paths to follow, some which make the system less time sensitive, and some that cut it completely. The "charge" system as a whole is not formally necessary for this Epic Destiny overhaul, so if we need to we can move in a different direction.

I honestly hate the concept of builders, spenders and so on. My sorc has man, many buttons as it is - it'd be a slog having to work with a building/spending system on top of that. On my other toons, a twf and artie, it would break the flow.

7: Initial Destiny Points

A change we will be making internally that we wanted to tell you all right now about is that we will be raising the amount of Fate Points gained for each tree unlock to 3 from 2. This means that each Epic Destiny tree you unlock by speaking to the appropriate NPC will grant you 1 Permanent Destiny Points (because 3 fate points = 1 destiny point). This also means that the default starting point pool is 12 (from the 12 trees). We're going to experiment with this and see how it feels, and you'll likely get a chance to try out this higher starting point in the next Epic Destiny preview.

So, that's about it for this feedback response post right now, although we did want to end with answering a few Frequently Asked Questions just to be sure we're not making things overly confusing.

That's good.

Question: Do the cores in each tree stack?

Answer: Yes! Everything but the Spell DCs specifically in each tree stacks with every other tree.

Question: What's happening to Epic Past Lives?

Answer: Every past life currently available will remain available after this overhaul. The only thing changing with Epic Past Lives is that you will get more Fate Points for your past lives. Also, going forward, you will no longer need to level up an Epic Destiny and gain Karma XP to Epic Reincarnate.

Question: Can you tell us about the other Destiny Trees you have planned?


Answer: They are thematically connected to Artificer, Alchemist, and Warlock (three classes whose mechanics and archetypes didn't get much specific love from the original ED system), and are not slated to be released in Update 51 with the initial set of 12 Epic Destinies.

Also good. Thanks.

[Pandjed]

So couple of questions from Cordovan's and others' posts ...

1. With the new system, when you ETR ... how do you know which epic past life you will get to the get the bonus feats? Will they all be available and you get to select one?

You can just choose your Past Live. Will 100% function as nowadays when you have full karma in all spheres.

2. The fact that you can switch between any epic destiny right now and twists without any real cost and cannot with new update is another swift kick ... at least let us set up maybe 3 different setups to be able to switch between, thus one can have a raiding setup, questing setup, and testing setup. I'd rather have free ability to switch setups like currently; but at least allow us a few preset setups to swap between.

Steelstar commented on this one.

In the first draft of the Epic Overhaul (the one mentioned in Cordovan's post above the question about reset costs), one of the features we considered was something similar to this, and we did investigations into the scope and cost of implementation. Unfortunately, it's colossal. It's something that could potentially be implemented someday, but is far outside the scope of what we can do as part of this Epic Destiny pass at this time.

TL;DR: That's much more work than what they can do within the timeframe for Epic Destiny revamp.

3. Shadowdancer is basically an Assassin/Illusion tree without any true help for mechanics or acrobats other than a few low level stuff. Please come up with some cool ideas that can boost the other rogue trees. Also you cannot attain T5 by only taking "rogue" or "illusionist" enhancements alone.

4. Please read #3. [/QUOTE]

This is my personal oppinion. TA is my favorite rogue tree and running it in SD before the pass was an unsynergistic pain, so I don't have hopes that this will change after the revamp and I also don't think that it needs to do so. If GMoF or LD (the latter being my tree of choice in the current system) can capture it well enough, it's good enough for me. Though with as the trees are now, I'd consider Divine Crusader.