First Look: U41 Eldritch Knight

[Propane]

[B]

How does the knockdown in Eldritch Tempest work?
It knocks down anything that isn't immune to Trip for one second. There is no saving throw. (It does not affect Bosses, who are normally immune to Trip).

Thoughts on 1 second + 1/3 Sec per Eldritch Knight core? (1.33 min to 3 second total)

[Steelstar]

Here's the line on Eldritch Tempest:

No-save AOE knockdown is very potent, even if it's only a 1-second knockdown. We can definitely consider lengthening the knockdown, shortening the ability's cooldown, or both. If we do, we'll need to add a significant saving throw to the knockdown, likely based on Tactics Feats. We don't want to do that, because (in most cases) it'll be worse. You'd need to find sources for that DC from gear, other enhancements, Destinies, etc. on a build that's already going to have trouble fitting what it needs into those places vs. more traditional builds. Yes, you could use it more often, but is it better if it never lands?

(You could also say "base it on spell DCs", but the melee attack system isn't built to handle that elegantly, and even then you've got several different spell-schools that might be making use of this tree).

We could also remove the CC component entirely, but we think it's fairly useful to the build.

[cru121]

Here's the line on Eldritch Tempest:

No-save AOE knockdown is very potent, even if it's only a 1-second knockdown. We can definitely consider lengthening the knockdown, shortening the ability's cooldown, or both. If we do, we'll need to add a significant saving throw to the knockdown, likely based on Tactics Feats. We don't want to do that, because (in most cases) it'll be worse. You'd need to find sources for that DC from gear, other enhancements, Destinies, etc. on a build that's already going to have trouble fitting what it needs into those places vs. more traditional builds. Yes, you could use it more often, but is it better if it never lands?

(You could also say "base it on spell DCs", but the melee attack system isn't built to handle that elegantly, and even then you've got several different spell-schools that might be making use of this tree).

We could also remove the CC component entirely, but we think it's fairly useful to the build.

then maybe leave monsters debuffed once they stand up (slowed, crippled, cursed, dazed, something, vulnerable to EK's spellsword element) or add some temporary buff (gain +20 mp for 10 seconds / make spellsword damage aoe for 10 seconds / gain 3d6 spellsword damage for 10 seconds, your next spell cast is at +5 DC to resist...)

EDIT: could also be different effect depending on which Spellsword toggle is active, smells like work though

[HastyPudding]

then maybe leave monsters debuffed once they stand up (slowed, crippled, cursed, dazed, something, vulnerable to EK's spellsword element) or add some temporary buff (gain +20 mp for 10 seconds / make spellsword damage aoe for 10 seconds / gain 3d6 spellsword damage for 10 seconds, your next spell cast is at +5 DC to resist...)

EDIT: could also be different effect depending on which Spellsword toggle is active, smells like work though

I like this idea. Electric could add stacks of vulnerability, cold could add reduced movement speed, fire could add a fire dot effect, and acid could reduce fortification.

[guzzlr]

Here's the line on Eldritch Tempest:

No-save AOE knockdown is very potent, even if it's only a 1-second knockdown. We can definitely consider lengthening the knockdown, shortening the ability's cooldown, or both. If we do, we'll need to add a significant saving throw to the knockdown, likely based on Tactics Feats. We don't want to do that, because (in most cases) it'll be worse. You'd need to find sources for that DC from gear, other enhancements, Destinies, etc. on a build that's already going to have trouble fitting what it needs into those places vs. more traditional builds. Yes, you could use it more often, but is it better if it never lands?

(You could also say "base it on spell DCs", but the melee attack system isn't built to handle that elegantly, and even then you've got several different spell-schools that might be making use of this tree).

We could also remove the CC component entirely, but we think it's fairly useful to the build.

1-second no save is better than a longer knockdown in my opinion. Unless of course, you are building for tactics anyway. I love stunning blow (aside form the way too long cooldown), and work it in on every melee I do, but I'm not sure I could do that on a Knight. That being said, 1 second barely stops the baddies. Even 2 second would make it feel more like you managed to get an attack interrupted and then the bad guy had to spend a "round" getting back up. I like no save better regardless.

[Kriogen]

Here's the line on Eldritch Tempest:

No-save AOE knockdown is very potent, even if it's only a 1-second knockdown. We can definitely consider lengthening the knockdown, shortening the ability's cooldown, or both. If we do, we'll need to add a significant saving throw to the knockdown, likely based on Tactics Feats. We don't want to do that, because (in most cases) it'll be worse. You'd need to find sources for that DC from gear, other enhancements, Destinies, etc. on a build that's already going to have trouble fitting what it needs into those places vs. more traditional builds. Yes, you could use it more often, but is it better if it never lands?

(You could also say "base it on spell DCs", but the melee attack system isn't built to handle that elegantly, and even then you've got several different spell-schools that might be making use of this tree).

We could also remove the CC component entirely, but we think it's fairly useful to the build.

Make a multiselector:
- melee attack, big damage, little no-save CC(or even no CC)
- PBAoE spell, good CC with save, little damage(or even no damage)

Spell school: whichever already has "knockdown".

[Ballrus]

Here's the line on Eldritch Tempest:

No-save AOE knockdown is very potent, even if it's only a 1-second knockdown. We can definitely consider lengthening the knockdown, shortening the ability's cooldown, or both. If we do, we'll need to add a significant saving throw to the knockdown, likely based on Tactics Feats. We don't want to do that, because (in most cases) it'll be worse. You'd need to find sources for that DC from gear, other enhancements, Destinies, etc. on a build that's already going to have trouble fitting what it needs into those places vs. more traditional builds. Yes, you could use it more often, but is it better if it never lands?

(You could also say "base it on spell DCs", but the melee attack system isn't built to handle that elegantly, and even then you've got several different spell-schools that might be making use of this tree).

We could also remove the CC component entirely, but we think it's fairly useful to the build.

The knockdown add helpless or are just an AOE trip?

[Steelstar]

The knockdown add helpless or are just an AOE trip?

AOE Trip. We'll call it out when an effect that wouldn't normally cause helplessness does.

[Ballrus]

AOE Trip. We'll call it out when an effect that wouldn't normally cause helplessness does.

Can add helpless effect? Just like Balanced Attacks from Primal avatar?

[Malekithe]

just one noobs opinion, but I like a lot of these changes just the way they are, and it appears a lot of dedicated melees have descended on this thread to tear this tree apart just to suit their needs. IE all they want is any way to splash sorc/wiz to get one more +1 crit multiplier or some other min/max bonus. Take knights trans for example, I want +30 spellpower, I want full BAB w/o reduced cooldowns(for the PRR), and I want +3% crit mult(altho +5% would be better, but id prefer not to rock the boat), a sorc can just not quicken ranged spells and get away with it, and PB/self spells can be meta'd no loss. Have you seen how far chain lightning can arc? Even at 0 range it will hit a guy quite far away especially if there are more guys in between.

What does scroll rezzing have to do with being an eldritch knight or a sorcerer or a wizard(I don't mention warlock b/c they are bogus and if knights trans is exclusive with dummy aura, good)? Nothing. Bring a cleric like the game intends you to?

If you run out of gas, you might not have 4000 spellpoints, or might be casting the wrong spells, or might not be generating 3 spellpoints one third of the time, every time you cast. Casting eldritch tempest every time it comes off CD might not be the best idea.

This new tree represents to me everything I tried to be years ago and failed at miserably, a caster that can fight some. If your a fighter who wants to cast some, eldritch knight might not be what your looking for. In other words if your a 100% dedicated melee looking to use this tree to do that better maybe the tree isn't for you, because it is for me.

Can we just let this partial caster pass happen before the exploitative theorycrafting ensues?

[zehnvhex]

I don't know if you know this, but touch range limitation is on live for EDF so we already know how it plays out and it's simply not fun. It makes even less sense in reaper where they promoted "okay everybody heal everybody!" and then they release this and it's, "Okay now stop doing it!"

It doesn't add fun or make the gameplay more compelling.

So adding it to casters now too, or at least wiz/sorc sets a precedent that nobody likes and we'd rather make our voices heard -now- while it's still in testing and they can go back to the drawing board on it. Once something goes live in DDO it is very uncommon for it to get touched again for years.

We'd rather they use their imagination, or poll the community for ideas, on how to make the ability fun and interesting rather than just using a limitation that doesn't really have reason to exist.

[Sho-sa]

What does scroll rezzing have to do with being an eldritch knight or a sorcerer or a wizard(I don't mention warlock b/c they are bogus and if knights trans is exclusive with dummy aura, good)? Nothing. Bring a cleric like the game intends you to?

Can we just let this partial caster pass happen before the exploitative theorycrafting ensues?

Scroll rezzing has to do with being a good teammate. Some years ago before you started playing, quests could simply not be run unless you had a dedicated healer player show up (2-3 for raids). LARGE amounts of time wasted sitting around which quickly added up to hours not playing- which is no one's idea of a good time. The population base has been on a steady decline over the years. Long story short, the Devs listened to us (and observed the loss of subscriptions i.e. two companies sold DDO off) and better party heal mechanics were put into play. NPC clerics are awful and have steadily gotten worse.

What we (long time players) are trying to avoid is DDO becoming a pigeon-hole game where one is stuck into a particular role like so any other MMOs out there. DDO simply does not have the player base to support this and coupled with little to no advertising and a hideous new player learning curve is unlikely to change.

The Nancy Pelosi trap, "We have to pass the bill to see what's in the bill," only works in the fantasy land of Federal Government. There are only a few areas we (long time players) are requesting be jiggled in this tree. For instance we know INT/CHA for hit only is a new player trap and needs to be changed to damage. Plus, it's nothing unlike what plenty of other classes have; if it isn't added now, it never will be. Otherwise we are reporting our feedback from Lamaland on what actually works and needs improvement compared to the rest of the class powerbase. Time has shown again and again Dev playtesting has very little to do with the reality of actually playing DDO. Anything requested here so far is not going to turn EK into a FOtM build by any means.

Is it better as it stands right now? Oh, yes, no argument there. Can it be reasonably tweaked in 2 or 3 areas? Yes, please. Asking to change later is not a reasonable expectation as the Devs have lots of other canaries to juggle and need to make new content to keep the lights on. It would actually be unfair of us to point things out later which we knew now as they won't be fixed (no one's fault, just reality).

[zehnvhex]

Played it a little bit.

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I agree that quick draw needs to be moved up and I'd like to see something much lower in the tree promoting swapping between spells and melee. As is until level 12 there wasn't really much point so I was just a really crappy fighter with firewalls.

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"Reduces all spells to touch range" - "Ranged mobs were a problem so we gave it deflect arrow"

>.>

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The KD feels weaker than it is just because of the visual aspect of it. I think 2 seconds would be a good compromise to make it feel good and look good. Or as others have suggested, giving it a lingering effect of 50% slow for an additional 3 seconds?

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Knight's Transformation was underwhelming. As others have stated giving up something fun (ranged spellcasting) for something not fun (raw stat boosts) is not good gameplay. EDF is very unpopular in the community and using the touch range concept further shows a pretty big disconnect between the devs and players.

Especially when very few other classes get limitations on their big boosts at this tier. I mean kensai for example gets 40 melee power, +1 crit range, +5 dmg. There's no "but they can no longer use AE attacks" or whatever arbitrary drawback.

3% spell crit, 30 sp, 2 evo DC's and 1 crit threat is not worth touch range.

It just doesn't feel fun. I don't want more boosts, I just want this touch range nonsense removed. I'm going to be up in melee range anyways with an EK.

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I'd love to see something that refreshes the duration of DOTs on mobs when you attack them. I'm not sure if DDO is capable of that, but it'd be a neat thing. Like, "[+1/2/3 W] If the target is currently affected by acid arrow, burning blood, electric surge, niac's biting cold, black dragonbolt or arcane pulse, extend the duration of these spells by 12 seconds. 8 second cooldown, 25 sp cost"

I feel that would be thematically fun and bring the late game DPS especially to a better/healthier spot.

[Silverleafeon]

I agree that quick draw needs to be moved up and I'd like to see something much lower in the tree promoting swapping between spells and melee. As is until level 12 there wasn't really much point so I was just a really crappy fighter with firewalls.

Quicken and Quick Draw are pretty much needed as soon as possible.

I'd love to see something that refreshes the duration of DOTs on mobs when you attack them. I'm not sure if DDO is capable of that, but it'd be a neat thing. Like, "[+1/2/3 W] If the target is currently affected by acid arrow, burning blood, electric surge, niac's biting cold, black dragonbolt or arcane pulse, extend the duration of these spells by 12 seconds. 8 second cooldown, 25 sp cost"

I feel that would be thematically fun and bring the late game DPS especially to a better/healthier spot.

Wow, wow, wow.+1 quote of the week

[Burakii]

Here's the line on Eldritch Tempest:

No-save AOE knockdown is very potent, even if it's only a 1-second knockdown. We can definitely consider lengthening the knockdown, shortening the ability's cooldown, or both. If we do, we'll need to add a significant saving throw to the knockdown, likely based on Tactics Feats. We don't want to do that, because (in most cases) it'll be worse. You'd need to find sources for that DC from gear, other enhancements, Destinies, etc. on a build that's already going to have trouble fitting what it needs into those places vs. more traditional builds. Yes, you could use it more often, but is it better if it never lands?

(You could also say "base it on spell DCs", but the melee attack system isn't built to handle that elegantly, and even then you've got several different spell-schools that might be making use of this tree).

We could also remove the CC component entirely, but we think it's fairly useful to the build.

I like the way it works if you not willing to make it better please don't change it, if you increased the time with no save that would be great but sounds like you don't want to so please don't make it worse.

[Tlorrd]

Here's the line on Eldritch Tempest:

No-save AOE knockdown is very potent, even if it's only a 1-second knockdown. We can definitely consider lengthening the knockdown, shortening the ability's cooldown, or both. If we do, we'll need to add a significant saving throw to the knockdown, likely based on Tactics Feats. We don't want to do that, because (in most cases) it'll be worse. You'd need to find sources for that DC from gear, other enhancements, Destinies, etc. on a build that's already going to have trouble fitting what it needs into those places vs. more traditional builds. Yes, you could use it more often, but is it better if it never lands?

(You could also say "base it on spell DCs", but the melee attack system isn't built to handle that elegantly, and even then you've got several different spell-schools that might be making use of this tree).

We could also remove the CC component entirely, but we think it's fairly useful to the build.

While I agree it has its place ... 1 second is fairly useless on a long cooldown. I ascribe this to the difference between Timebomb and Battle Engineer T5 trip ... both have easily attainable DCs, but the trip lasts so much longer than knockdown to make Timebomb fairly useless from a dps or CC standpoint later into the game.

Also look no further than Quarantine for how you incorporated a spell like feature into melee or ranged combat. Also things like Cometfall cause a knockdown at least too.

At a minimum cause the trip to last 2 or 3 seconds so that the 1 second cooldown/switch to a spell with quick draw feat is viable.

[Tuxedoman96]

I think the shield temps should scale higher, taking into account the type of shield used:

2x shield enhancement bonus for bucklers and light shields (due to the ability to evade in them)
3x shield enhancement bonus for large shield (to compensate for lack of evasion)
4x shield enhancement bonus for tower shields (to compensate for lack of evasion and the huge ASF + armor check penalty + max dex bonus restrictions).

Each of these stacking up to 3 times with one stack gained every 6 secs (as per usual)

I think this would help bolster the survivability a bit and also offer more appropriate trade-offs for the shield type used.

Also, keep in mind that while we can take into account saves, etc., that can be gained from multiclassing, I'm also looking at it from the merit of being a wiz or sorc, neither of which really get great saves, etc., to make the temps as they are now useful enough.

If need be, they can be made to not stack with aura-based temps.

[Propane]

Here's the line on Eldritch Tempest:

No-save AOE knockdown is very potent, even if it's only a 1-second knockdown. We can definitely consider lengthening the knockdown, shortening the ability's cooldown, or both. If we do, we'll need to add a significant saving throw to the knockdown, likely based on Tactics Feats. We don't want to do that, because (in most cases) it'll be worse. You'd need to find sources for that DC from gear, other enhancements, Destinies, etc. on a build that's already going to have trouble fitting what it needs into those places vs. more traditional builds. Yes, you could use it more often, but is it better if it never lands?

(You could also say "base it on spell DCs", but the melee attack system isn't built to handle that elegantly, and even then you've got several different spell-schools that might be making use of this tree).

We could also remove the CC component entirely, but we think it's fairly useful to the build.

If folks are "melee" -I would expect them to lean towards Dire Charge at CAP...

Option A
1 sec with no save (current)

Option B
6 sec with DC is (20 + highest ability modifier + bonus to stun attacks)

(allow selector for either )

[Chacka_DDO]

Here's the line on Eldritch Tempest:

No-save AOE knockdown is very potent, even if it's only a 1-second knockdown. We can definitely consider lengthening the knockdown, shortening the ability's cooldown, or both. If we do, we'll need to add a significant saving throw to the knockdown, likely based on Tactics Feats. We don't want to do that, because (in most cases) it'll be worse. You'd need to find sources for that DC from gear, other enhancements, Destinies, etc. on a build that's already going to have trouble fitting what it needs into those places vs. more traditional builds. Yes, you could use it more often, but is it better if it never lands?

(You could also say "base it on spell DCs", but the melee attack system isn't built to handle that elegantly, and even then you've got several different spell-schools that might be making use of this tree).

We could also remove the CC component entirely, but we think it's fairly useful to the build.

Just to mention it, it is questionable if a Difficult Check is needed at all in a game like DDO.
For example, I played recently Diablo III for some weeks and there all abilities like stun or blindness work every time you hit a monster with it and they even work on every boss, and it is a lot of fun to play Diablo III without such Difficult Checks we have in DDO.
And you may consider that Blizzard is much more successful with Diablo III than SSG with DDO and this maybe because they simply do some things better.
In many things, DDO should be different from what we have now and some things demand simplifications in DDO because sometimes less is simply better.

For the DC checks, I would, in general, suggest a paradigm shift the question should not be if an ability work or not if you have good items and character stats, the question should be how often you can use them and how powerful they are.
It is just only frustrating if you use something especially with a long cooldown time and all you get is a message that the monster resists what you did or even worse the monster is immune.
Such frustrating moments are simply unnecessary and it makes a game worse if they are an inherent part of a game in my opinion.

howsoever I don't expect such a paradigm shift any time soon.
But back to Eldritch Tempest, 1 second is simply not enough even if it is irresistible if you can use it only every 30 seconds, sure you can say you want it as the optical effect with no real use but I think this ability should be really useful.

My suggestion would be to make this enhancement and Drifting Lotus and Lay Waste 15 seconds cooldown and 6 seconds duration and set them all on the same cooldown timer.
And make the DC check for Eldritch Tempest against fortitude or reflex with a 10 + half character level + charisma or int modifier + trip bonuses.

[capsela]

Here's the line on Eldritch Tempest:

No-save AOE knockdown is very potent, even if it's only a 1-second knockdown. We can definitely consider lengthening the knockdown, shortening the ability's cooldown, or both. If we do, we'll need to add a significant saving throw to the knockdown, likely based on Tactics Feats. We don't want to do that, because (in most cases) it'll be worse. You'd need to find sources for that DC from gear, other enhancements, Destinies, etc. on a build that's already going to have trouble fitting what it needs into those places vs. more traditional builds. Yes, you could use it more often, but is it better if it never lands?

(You could also say "base it on spell DCs", but the melee attack system isn't built to handle that elegantly, and even then you've got several different spell-schools that might be making use of this tree).

We could also remove the CC component entirely, but we think it's fairly useful to the build.

I vote get rid of the knockdown entirely and boost spellpower, crit multipler, "arcane warrior" time length, or some other passive. EK doesn't need more CC. It's a waste, a lvl 20 arcane has plenty of CC already. A tier 5 should be special and offer something unique to a build.