The (New and Improved) Hey Lynnabel Thread

[nokowi]

Can you summarize what you believe other developers have said related to tremorsense?
Tremorsense shares the location of a character still in stealth with non-tremorsense mobs.

Can any other stealth player find a dev response to this specific question?

Hey Saekee, can you repeat this question? Or any other stealth players out there - and in a way that doesn't require teaching a lesson. Thanks!

[karatemack]

Can any other stealth player find a dev response to this specific question?

The magic words weren't used (IE: "tremorsense")... but the devs have spoken out about stealth earlier this year: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...the-developers

[nokowi]

The magic words weren't used (IE: "tremorsense")... but the devs have spoken out about stealth earlier this year: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...the-developers

I am aware of what devs have said.

We had a player spam the forums with new thread after new thread (more than dozens) and cordovan finally said that they don't support stealth, clarified by they don't support stealth in reaper, but will continue to do so outside of reaper. (I appreciate their efforts in getting a response, so this is not a criticism)

A question on tremorsense is a mechanic in non-reaper that has never been addressed. None of the specific questions players have about stealth/bugs have been addressed - such as mine here. Many players have contained their questions to mechanics in non-reaper, with no response (in 2 years time).


I have no wish to spam the forums with new thread after new thread (learning by what devs teach us through how they respond) - I am asking the question in a thread specifically for such questions.

I'm not sure what lesson forumites should learn from one player successfully spamming the forums many months ago and getting a response, while another very desirable forumite told us they asked for an on-point discussion thread and got a "no" for an answer 2 years ago.


Lynnabel implied that there was some better way to ask the question, and I have asked what that is. I will modify my behavior to whatever response leads to devs communicating with stealth players. So far, spamming the forums with new thread after new thread is the best option, but one I have not used, because I am interested in real communication that involves all stealth players. I am now waiting for some other stealth player to show me the proper behavior that gets devs to have real communication with players.

In 2 years time, nobody has been able to do this, so it seems like it must be a pretty difficult task - but one that is expected of me personally in this thread. I now ask either Lynnabel, or some other stealth player to show me the way. I am eager to make these forums more productive.

[Vish]

@lynnabel
When do we get a melee staff?
So I can play my gimp henshin again

And who cares about tremor sense?
Kill it!

[Dark_Helmet]

Decisions of game balance (such as the unarmed strike change) are not made by just one person.

Furthermore, if I were truly able to change what's happening, I'd have also hit their Jade DCs on the way down.

I forgot that the monks came about from people who would rather play arcade games (twitching/clicking sequences to power up) than D&D immersion into storytelling.


So, back to your bugs:
Renown pots (self, friend)): On hotbar, have someone highlighted and clicking it on hotbar only applies to self.

[EmGreen]

Running on reaper means there is a death timer (before you can be resurrected). Some raids also inherently have a death timer. The two do not interact well - both are applied, and you can't resurrect until the longest one has expired, but when the shorter one expires the 'unable to be raised' visual above your head is removed, even though you are still blocked. This is quite frustrating as it means that no one in the party can tell if you are actually ready for a raise or not. Perhaps the longer of the two raise debuffs could refresh its image at a set time so that it reinstates the vfx? Or some other solution like checking when it expires that there isn't another one running and skipping the remove vfx step?

[Zietlearner]

I just wanted to point out to others that may be able to update a bug list that A Good Death enhancement in the Fighter Kensai tree and the Merciful enhancement in the Ranger Deepwood Stalker tree are sharing cool-downs. When one is used the other is placed on a cool-down. Both have the same duration but they act slightly different and am confused why they are both going off when one is used. A Good Death is a tier 5 while Merciful is only a tier 4. Put in a bug report already so figured if no one else has noticed this that it can be placed on where ever the newest updated known bug forum is.

Edit: Posted this on a new thread but found where i should put bugs and such! so here it is hope the info helps as i have also completed a bug report but havent heard anything back from it.

[Thunder-Monkey]

If you think of anything specific, this is the thread to post the bugs in

Hi Lynnabel, thanks for the feedback in this thread.

The Warlock core enhancement Blood Component (Tainted Scholar: core #5) is not applying it's 10% boost to Eldritch Blast Shape attack speed.

I have bug-reported this. I would appreciate if it was looked at by you or the team.

Thanks

TM

[blerkington]

Can you summarize what you believe other developers have said related to tremorsense?

I have never heard a specific response to tremorsense, or really any of the other concerns of players, so you are effectively referring me to a lack of communications on the matter - and within a 2 year time frame.

As to non-desired methods of communication, you have already responded to such a request (you can't fix typos) within this very thread, and there are many other people besides me that have made the same request in nearly every way possible, over a 2 year time frame.

1. Devs don't respond when players ask specifics about stealth (probably the post popular request on the forums, at this point)
2. If a player suggests you can't respond, you say you can't respond because of the undesirable nature of their suggestions (having done so already within this very thread to a non-stealth request)

Give me another option besides 1 or 2, and I will be glad to do so. What would you suggest?

You have my thanks for keeping on at this in a productive way, but at this point they really have no good answers to these questions.

Developer communication is now largely whim-based. In particular, there are a number of very sensitive topics like the stealth game and DPS testing that they essentially refuse to discuss. You can see by this thread some of them are happy to take the low road of fault-finding with how the community has tried to raise these issues, but I can guarantee none of them will tell you how to engage productively and then go on to participate in a discussion on stealth. And this is a real act of bad faith, implying that we aren't approaching them correctly when there is zero intention to do anything.

Stealth is one of those topics where they have painted themselves into a corner, so it's little wonder they are keeping their heads down. Make bad changes to the game, belatedly offer some inaccurate and contradictory statements about it (such as 'it's fine', 'it's supported, but not in reaper', and 'it's very powerful' - to paraphrase Lynn's, Cordo's and Torc's comments). The thing is, if they were interested in talking to us about this, instead of just fault-finding with people's methods of approaching them, they could just start a conversation. But they won't.

Professional communication is not a priority for the SSG team. What we have instead are whim, pride and resentment of criticism driving the decisions about when and how to communicate. At this stage, this is far more about 'you can't make me' and 'I'll do what I want' than dealing with community concerns and making a better game. But if someone at SSG wants to prove me wrong by taking the high road this time, by all means do it. I'll be at the front of the line to thank you for adopting a better approach.

Thanks.

[nokowi]

You have my thanks for keeping on at this in a productive way, but at this point they really have no good answers to these questions.

Developer communication is now largely whim-based. In particular, there are a number of very sensitive topics like the stealth game and DPS testing that they essentially refuse to discuss. You can see by this thread some of them are happy to take the low road of fault-finding with how the community has tried to raise these issues, but I can guarantee none of them will tell you how to engage productively and then go on to participate in a discussion on stealth. And this is a real act of bad faith, saying that that we aren't approaching them correctly when there is no intention to do anything.

Stealth is one of those topics where they have painted themselves into a corner, so it's little wonder they are keeping their heads down. Make bad changes to the game, belatedly offer some inaccurate and contradictory statements about it (such as 'it's fine', 'it's supported, but not in reaper', and 'it's very powerful' - to paraphrase Lynn's, Cordo's and Torc's comments). The thing is, if they were interested in talking to us about this, instead of just fault-finding with people's methods of approaching them, they could just start a conversation. But they won't.

Professional communication is not a priority for the SSG team. What we have instead are whim, pride and resentment of criticism driving the decisions about when and how to communicate. At this stage, this is far more about 'you can't make me' and 'I'll do what I want' than dealing with community concerns and making a better game. But if someone at SSG wants to prove me wrong by taking the high road this time, by all means do it. I'll be at the front of the line to thank you for adopting a better approach.

Thanks.

In my book Lynnabel is the best chance for communication. She has done great work on the forums (communicating, witty responses, positive attitude). I don't fault her for saying she was having fun on her rogue, and I think that has been overplayed. She read through the remarks at that time, on her own time, even as an intern. Cordo is just a messenger. Torc's posts have always been on target and factual - if someone put him on this I think he would do a great job.

I think SSG has good people but has made some poor decisions in regards to how they handle stealth players. Notice I didn't say stealth design. If they needed to axe stealth to move forward as a company, I can respect that. The active effort to not discuss stealth, to label those players as undesirable, and to hand out infractions to do so is just wrong, in my opinion. These actions reflect poorly on SSG as a company. It's been 2 years, and players certainly deserved better.

I'm somewhat discouraged that someone fully capable of a funny or witty response labeled me undesirable (this type of thing happens when a small team of developers decides stealth players are a bad crowd and specifically goes after them), but knowing that there is some super secret method of communicating with devs should keep us engaged on the issue for a long time. If they never do anything about stealth, maybe the next group of players they go after will benefit.

[Saekee]

I don't have anything to say that you haven't heard before from other developers, so it'd do nothing but give players the impression that certain non-desired methods of communication are the best way of getting the team's attention.

Hey Saekee, can you repeat this question? Or any other stealth players out there - and in a way that doesn't require teaching a lesson. Thanks!

tremor sense arises from a creature’s body in contact with the ground & developing innate, highly sensitive perceptions of vibrations of things moving on the ground too, e.g. an ooze’s entire sensory apparatus sits on the ground, & spiders use feelers in their feet & other places. Hence they tremor sense movement even more than see/smell it.

Reapers have tremor sense even though they are floating, which seems off. Secondly, characters that are floating via things like SD’s shadow form, wraith form or other oddities I cannot think of (like those seconds sith a Jibber blade) are not touching the ground. Therefore, how is it that they are discovered by tremor-sensing beings? A floating reaper shouldn’t be able to tremor sense a floating player.

If anything, reapers ought to have ‘life sense’ like undead; I have no idea how that works as sometimes I sneak past undead. But then a sneaky PM build should sneak past all of this in Wraith form (undead & floating).

[Dalris_Thane]

If you think of anything specific, this is the thread to post the bugs in

Guards are still doing 1D8 for me, as Dalris, a Rogue. L29 (any alts are mules... no slot left to test other classes / races)

Acid 8D8 Hands
Evil 4D8 Feet
Fire 8D8 Wrists
Ice 6d8 Armor
Lightning 7D8 Waist
Light 5D8 Armor
Sonic 5D8 Armor
Piercing 5D8 Armor
Good 5D8 Armor
Good 3D8 Finger (I know there's no overlap between Goods... just being thorough)

All of which do only 1D8 despite me "turtling up" with shift on the L1 Korthos Wilderness I use to test damage.

Old Thread =
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...f-sun-and-moon

Any updates?

[nokowi]

tremor sense arises from a creature’s body in contact with the ground & developing innate, highly sensitive perceptions of vibrations of things moving on the ground too, e.g. an ooze’s entire sensory apparatus sits on the ground, & spiders use feelers in their feet & other places. Hence they tremor sense movement even more than see/smell it.

Reapers have tremor sense even though they are floating, which seems off. Secondly, characters that are floating via things like SD’s shadow form, wraith form or other oddities I cannot think of (like those seconds sith a Jibber blade) are not touching the ground. Therefore, how is it that they are discovered by tremor-sensing beings? A floating reaper shouldn’t be able to tremor sense a floating player.

If anything, reapers ought to have ‘life sense’ like undead; I have no idea how that works as sometimes I sneak past undead. But then a sneaky PM build should sneak past all of this in Wraith form (undead & floating).

Bah, they aren't supporting stealth in reaper. You would need to reformulate this for what happens outside of reaper.

I would gladly de-tune myself to non-reaper if they could make it fun and engaging with a fix to tremorsense. I could transfer to the new player server, and have a lot of fun. Maybe hit-up Qhalor.

Thanks for this post, but can you reformulate it solely about tremorsense outside of reaper (within their stated goals)?

[Saekee]

Bah, they aren't supporting stealth in reaper. You would need to reformulate this for what happens outside of reaper.

I would gladly de-tune myself to non-reaper if they could make it fun and engaging with a fix to tremorsense. I could transfer to the new player server, and have a lot of fun.

Thanks for this post, but can you reformulate it solely about tremorsense outside of reaper?

it holds fine for both.

I like stealthing reaper since the stakes are insane. Did a 2person PUG of Rusted Blades at level 22, R10–really fun. A joke quest made challenging.

[nokowi]

it holds fine for both.

Ok, thanks. My post was rejected for being Nokowi. Hopefully this clarification makes it clear that your statements about tremorsense apply outside of reaper, so that yours in not summarily rejected because it mentioned reaper. Let's see if you can get a response, or if you did something wrong as well.

Maybe someone else wants to try asking about tremorsense in non-reaper from in case Saekee also messed up?

I like stealthing reaper since the stakes are insane. Did a 2person PUG of Rusted Blades at level 22, R10–really fun. A joke quest made challenging.

I would love this too, but my tolerance for failure without me making a mistake is very low. The cases in which I am auto-discovered by non-tremorsense mobs makes the experience non-immersive and irritating. Some of the tools (summon hireling just to generate agro, etc) also don't jive with immersive play (for me). Reading the D&D description of shadowdancer, and then seeing a level 1 creature autodetect a level 30 player in DDO is game breaking (for me). I find the risk/reward/(and most importantly skilled play and player investment) structure is completely whack - and please trust me when I say I love a challenge, and care much less about rewards. Reaper should have been built for people like me.

[Lynnabel]

Ok, thanks. My post was rejected for being Nokowi. Hopefully this clarification makes it clear that your statements about tremorsense apply outside of reaper, so that yours in not summarily rejected because it mentioned reaper. Let's see if you can get a response, or if you did something wrong as well.

If you'll forgive me for making the same mistake twice in one weekend by replying to off-topic comments, this is the kind of stuff I was really trying to avoid. I wanted to walk into work Monday morning, fix some quick typos and bugs and post about em, and then get back to redoing all of the monster templates by hand (hahahah oh no), but now it's a thread about Stealth and Reaper and tremorsense and "The Developers need to be more proactive in engaging with the playerbase!" instead of a thread about quick bugs to squish.

If I ignore this side-topic it'll come off as me dismissing your complaints rudely, further inciting derailing posts (bad idea), but if I engage then it becomes true that the best way to get us to talk about certain gameplay systems is to invade every thread where there is developer interaction at all (somehow even a worse idea). It's a no-win scenario, and the only winning move is not to play, but then I lose my chance to fill my downtime with typos instead of overdesigning Eldritch Knight plans that I know everyone will hate (the worst idea yet, please stop me).

I don't think this thread is the best place to talk about stealth. I don't think this thread is the best place to talk about developer interaction patterns, either. For better or for worse, though, now it's a thread about something else other than its intended topic - and it's hard to engage in threads like these without inviting and encouraging nonconstructive behavior.

[Grace_ana]

As the OP, I am fine with the stealth stuff not being in this thread. I've already asked people to stop posting suggestions, and the stealth issue isn't a bug. Don't get me wrong, I feel strongly that the stealth stuff is a huge issue and want it to be addressed. But this isn't the thread for it. So please take it elsewhere. This thread is ONLY for people to list bugs in one place so they can be seen and dealt with relatively quickly. If off-posts become a real issue here, I will ask Cordo to clean it up, because it's not in anyone's best interests to have a bug thread derailed. Thank you.

On that note, WGU is still bugging out at the end and not completing. I experienced it today for the first time, but others have posted about it. I'm not sure what causes it (we did have an auralock in the group, but we have in the past as well at times). Basically, you get all the way to the end, Oriphaun drops to the shrine, we drop to the shrine, the chests drop, we can loot the chests...but the quest does not complete.

[nokowi]

If you'll forgive me for making the same mistake twice in one weekend by replying to off-topic comments, this is the kind of stuff I was really trying to avoid. I wanted to walk into work Monday morning, fix some quick typos and bugs and post about em, and then get back to redoing all of the monster templates by hand (hahahah oh no), but now it's a thread about Stealth and Reaper and tremorsense and "The Developers need to be more proactive in engaging with the playerbase!" instead of a thread about quick bugs to squish.

If I ignore this side-topic it'll come off as me dismissing your complaints rudely, further inciting derailing posts (bad idea), but if I engage then it becomes true that the best way to get us to talk about certain gameplay systems is to invade every thread where there is developer interaction at all (somehow even a worse idea). It's a no-win scenario, and the only winning move is not to play, but then I lose my chance to fill my downtime with typos instead of overdesigning Eldritch Knight plans that I know everyone will hate (the worst idea yet, please stop me).

I don't think this thread is the best place to talk about stealth. I don't think this thread is the best place to talk about developer interaction patterns, either. For better or for worse, though, now it's a thread about something else other than its intended topic - and it's hard to engage in threads like these without inviting and encouraging nonconstructive behavior.

I'm talking about tremorsense being shared with non tremorsense mobs - what I (and most of the people that play stealth) view as a clear bug because none of the other classes have any mob immunities or abilities shared throughout all the other mobs in the dungeon.

It's not about stealth any more than a particular ability is about a "class", a typo about a "quest", etc. It's about a game feature that does not work correctly - commonly called a bug. If it's not a bug, someone should have probably stated that 2 years ago.

We report what we believe to be bugs here - in the hopes of a constructive forum. Being told I did it wrong files straight under the non-constructive feedback. Contrast this with a player reporting a bug - in a thread for bugs. The other request about stealth (movement speed) got no such response - is that not the definition of a bug??


If you could have someone provide a place for that discussion and tell us what it is, stealth players would be happy (overjoyed) to go there. Be clear about who should go there, because when I read a stealth ability (fast movement speed), and it doesn't do what it says it does, it sure seems like a bug. But it's also stealth, so maybe we aren't supposed to talk about it???

Our own threads go unanswered.
Saekee asked for dev sponsored thread (rejected 2 years ago).


1. What is this other proper place, and why is it a secret?

2. What exactly is the proper constructive behavior that no stealth player is doing, and why is it also a secret?

3. Saekee seems really really nice - why is he/she also bad?


And why didn't you say that last time, so that you could get your typo's fixed, instead of telling me I did something secretly wrong, and referring me to imaginary dev posts about tremorsense that don't exist?

I tried very hard to do this properly, per your request. (Saekee's time, Blerk's time are also important).

I am at work too! What am I going to say Monday morning???

[blerkington]

As the OP, I am fine with the stealth stuff not being in this thread. I've already asked people to stop posting suggestions, and the stealth issue isn't a bug. Don't get me wrong, I feel strongly that the stealth stuff is a huge issue and want it to be addressed. But this isn't the thread for it. So please take it elsewhere. This thread is ONLY for people to list bugs in one place so they can be seen and dealt with relatively quickly. If off-posts become a real issue here, I will ask Cordo to clean it up, because it's not in anyone's best interests to have a bug thread derailed. Thank you.

On that note, WGU is still bugging out at the end and not completing. I experienced it today for the first time, but others have posted about it. I'm not sure what causes it (we did have an auralock in the group, but we have in the past as well at times). Basically, you get all the way to the end, Oriphaun drops to the shrine, we drop to the shrine, the chests drop, we can loot the chests...but the quest does not complete.

Sorry about that, Grace.

My first post about stealth in this thread did actually relate to a bug, ie, monsters not properly forgetting our locations and reacquiring them without being able to see or hear us or be warned by allies if we go back into stealth again and then leave it later. There are actually problems with stealth right now that seem like bugs, not just differences of opinion about design.

But you are right that my other posts aren't on topic, so I'll cut it out until I have another bug to raise. As for the developer claiming this thread has been derailed, Nokowi has asked repeatedly for you to tell us how, where and when to raise these matters if there is any intention at all to help us, and we'll do that instead. So please either answer the question or admit that SSG has no intention of discussing this anymore. Then we can all move on.

Thanks.

[nokowi]

As the OP, I am fine with the stealth stuff not being in this thread.

No worries, just waiting for the response of where the proper place is, and who exactly is excluded from posting here (any bug while in stealth, any stealth player, anything in the assassin tree, anything in any rogue tree, etc). Incorrect sneak speed and any tremorsense issues are a good example of what needs clarification - they seem like bugs to me, but they are certainly stealth as well. It's not completely clear what SSG no longer supports, making it difficult to know where to go.

I'm also happy to wait until the melee HP is resolved, or the time is convenient for a dev to engage in discussion - after 2 years a few weeks or even months seems like child's play.

I don't feel the missing piece is on the players, however, as was suggested in this thread.

FYI - stealth WAS openly discussed in the last "Hey Lynnabel" thread, so outlawing it here provides more evidence of a possible policy against talking about stealth at SSG.