Random Dungeons Old School Simple Version

**Wonedream** · 03-10-2017, 03:52 AM

(To the Devs, my main toon thanks you for the wonderful update with Racial PLs

. I was in game and heard a description and liked it... thinking yeah.. my main is gonna get that too

. My alts are swimming in tears, but I came up with a plan for them too, as I gear up my main getting all PLd I will dump lots of stuff of them. If my main ever runs out... my alts will have gear.. Ill just play em casual to enjoy the neat things I never used :P then go back to my main for some R10 action)

Now for the post:

While I was working out an elaborate system for the procedures and probability matrices for the ingredients to make a dungeon generator that generates truly excellence state of the art awesomeness that will have so many of us drooling with endless anticipation as we get lost over and over in the variety itself... I was looking back at the old basics... the old school DM guide for AD&D. Nostalgia kicked in so hard, I felt it heavy, I remembered when I was a kid making dungeons for my friends to play, hours just making them, it was fun. Later I worked out my own random systems, because I found it was more fun to DM when I didn't know what was gonna happen either. So I strolled through memory lane and found the lists of random monsters for dungeons lvls 1 to 10, and some of the other random lists too.

I asked myself what would a simple version look like and how would it be to play.

You can get an idea of it by looking at the variables, so I wanted to share some simple variables to demonstrate how easy it is to expect what and what not. And would even a simple bland dungeon with lots of secrets, simple mechanics, and odd formations still be fun? Let us take a better look and ask ourselves what this simple product would be like to play.

First the random monster charts from old school:

http://www.adnd3egame.com/documents/dmg.pdf

They are in the back, with other random charts of stuff. The monsters are not the same as here, easy to adjust.

What about the dungeons.

Let us use a very simple method this time, instead of modules with connecting pathways, let us use bricks... big bricks.. bland, but easy to program and randomize...

Look at this to help understand what it would look like:

https://www.myth-weavers.com/generate_dungeon.php

Now we can begin the simple operations to turn this stuff into an adventure, lets keep it simple for this demonstration and see if the end result looks like fun

The simple version

Each block in the map is a wall block, solid, you can't pass through it. This dungeon has in its descriptions to justify its bland nature "crog that mad wizard made a poor version of of a dungeon to randomize itself to protect him so know one will ever just know and have a plan to use against him.. bad crog bad now we must kill you"... whatever can work, easy to add story so our toons say, ok, that is why it is made of blocks. This is a simple bland version, remember.

You go into block land dungeon. The blocks look like large monoliths, so it has this crypt feel to it, at least its not so bad. Rooms next to halls? They will leave open spaces. Not if the room is told to add walls at its perimeters.. maybe 1 or 2 meters thick. Now you can't pass. Boom Room!

As it looks now it is horizontal only. This is a simple learning version, still fun, but the baby, not the papa! So let it be simple and horizontal, easy to make, easy to pull off. This is a 2d version.

How might this be unpredictable then since its so bland?

Width of dungeon is random. We dont know.

Height of dungeon is random. Setting can be set to vary and be random. So we wouldn't know the size of the dungeon for beginners.

Room count: On this generator you get none, few, some, many, too many. These can be random. We might end up in just a maze of hallways. Or lots of rooms. It would take a few rooms... halls... to figure out which is which sometimes.. here we are guessing again.

Room sizes can also be set to randomized specs, so we might end up in a place with lots of tightly packed rooms, or spread out large ones. Another thing that keeps us guessing. We are inside this shifting maze remember.

Randomness. Play with this one

You can set it up to 95% random or 0% random. So here, we can even set it so the nature of the randomness of the dungeon is now random. It might not be as random, it might be very random. We won't even know how random it is :P What a lot of guessing. Im geting lost, but its fun!

Deadends removed: Play it it.. make some variations. We will figure out if we got dead ends if we start running into em, but we won't know if they are all over the place right away usually, even that will take some running around, scouting... What is it like this time? So it would end up random if and how many dead ends there are. Now not only are we guessing, we are in a maze! This is really getting fun, even if the walls are bland! I like this game... more please.. onward with the demo!

Secret doors: It might have none, it might be filled with secrets... this too can be random so we don't automatically know if it has em or not. Them scouts be working hard!!!

Concealed doors: They might spring open if we get too close.. monsters come rushing out. Maybe not. But another thing to keep an eye out for. Will they always be there, no, so we always end up guessing.

Sparseness: Is this place crowded or spread out. How much can it vary, and how long will it take to figure out? This might get constrained some so it isnt so crowded lag and other things happen, simply set the constraints so it cant get to that point ever. Know the deflection point so you never go near the breaking point. Easy enough. And with all the other things to watch out for, its getting hard to keep up with all the variables... people will probably start making the wrong guesses more often.. but that is just the dungeon, nothing to do with monsters yet.

Level: In our example we will borrow but augment the level idea. The generator I use for the example puts monsters in the rooms, not much, but its for PnP, a different kind of game then online fast action. But you can choose levels 1-20... it already covers heriocs :P lol. Let us assume it adds more monsters and that part is a bit different. And that monsters can also appear in hallway blocks at times, not as often, but it happens. We will add the modified version in a bit.

Grid Size: I couldnt figure out how this would effect anything. It looked like a printing feature. Not sure.

Not sure was seed is referring to either. But this shows a block system.. helps get the idea of how random the environment can get already with simple 2d.

Order of Operations:

This one is much simpler. So first it spawns a map.

It adds monsters, content, traps, tricks, surprises to rooms. It adds a bit of the same to hallways, just not as much (or maybe more :P).

Here we can modify the lists, go back and look at AD&D for some simple insights, and deliver something based on the content within the game. There are things in those lists that aren't here, so modify a bit.

Randomize Contents is in the AD&D DMs guide for a quick snap shot look.
Empty rooms with junk.. things about
Monsters
Treasure
Trick/Trap
Monsters and Treasure

This is outta the book.. so rooms. Modify it a tad
Empty rooms
Monsters
Treasure
Tricks/Traps
Ambush
Puzzle
NPC

And put it in a matrix

Empty Room Monsters Treasure Tricks/Traps Ambush Puzzle NPC
Empty Room
Monsters
Treasure
Trick/Traps
Ambush
Puzzle
NPC

If it gets two of the same that means it gets one. If it gets two mixes.. it gets mixed. Mixes up like.. monsters and treasure.. Monsters and tricks/traps, monsters and ambush (more monsters after fight.. and you thought it was over), monsters and puzzle (always fun trying to solve puzzles with monsters attacking you..)... Treasure might be concealed.. so it looks like an empty room... or the monsters hiding.. or they just appear out of no where by magic.. by crossing the content into a matrix you get 49+7 56 possible things that can happen in a room. Add more variables or cross em again and those number can change quickly. Just adding another matrix.... so you can get monster ambush treasure or puzzle trap ambush brings it up to 343+49+7=399 variations. Then it can have a sequence or none, adding more variations on top of this so that you start with monsters after they die a puzzle appear and after you solve it a concealed door opens and monsters spring an ambush (sequenced), or you enter a room with a puzzle, monsters guarding it, and the concealed door ambush is sprung when you enter thinking it won't be so many monsters (thus the ambush)... (non-sequenced).

Room complexity:
Most likely 1 content
Use matrix of 2 contents (might still be 1) ... check if sequenced or not
Use matrix of 3 contents (might be 2 or 1 still) .. check if sequenced or not

It adds a starting place... might put you in the middle of a fight right away.

There might be only 1 starting place... there might be many and each player that enters ends up somewhere else in the dungeon... sometimes you got to find the party since you are all spread out.

Starter:
Most common One place (party all comes in at same place as usual)
Rare Multiple starter points (party comes in and is randomly placed in one of the starting points, they might be spread apart and will have to find each other to team up) This can also occur later on if they have to go into a teleporter if the mission has a twist, so they might end up getting separated later on. If it happens right away an exp bonus could kick in to keep them from resetting it, or it could increase the chances of some unique item dropping so they brave it anyways)

It adds a simple theme/mission/objective

Last part.

Themes/missions/objectives:

Rescue Mission (place some random thing or person that gives objective... place dead or alive subject somewhere... chance of boss)
Escort (Help so and so get to such place.. or kill such boss... chance that so and so being escorted will turn mid quest, at end, or not at all)
Guard Something (Don't let them destroy it.. or them... after holding ground for a set time.. go find the boss who organized the attack and teach him)
Plunder (Random NPC quest givers tells tales of great treasure somewhere here.. chances for rare items go up.. turns out its being guarded)
Treasure Hunt (Quest giver says there is treasure.. find it to obtain objective or at least find out it doesnt exist (possible new objective or quest end)
Stop the Evil (NPC quest giver tells about some great evil.. a sorcerer, wizard, lich, dragon.. some mean sounding boss... go stop it!)
Collect the parts (Go find em and assemble such and such to stop so and so. )
Investigate (Find out what happened by simply getting to the end... )
Exterminate (Kill em all... they must be stopped... all of them!!!)
Sabotage (Get in there and set it up to go boom...

)
Revenge (NPC quest giver offers reward if you avenge the death of their loved one... it might be worth it...)

Now in most of these cases you have a quest giving thing or person (first objective if find out what the objective is). It connects to where the result activator is that ends the quest or triggers next objective. It is possible there is a barrier in between, a key and a door.

Tell computer to lock room with target (boss, objective goal... ) if it generates a barrier, or randomly use some barriers that will always fit.. maybe boss is surrounded by force field and several levers must be pulled to stop force field... barrier... solution can be randomized.. but must be constrained carefully so the means to over come the barrier is always within reach and the target is always beyond the barrier. In this case locked rooms or putting forces fields is easy and works well. The computer can then place key in any room but locked one. It can even use multiple keys for that room as long as they aren't in that room and not beyond a barrier out of reach.

Objective twists and developments:

Common 1 Objective only.. (simple quest.. can still be a maze of fun..)
Uncommon 2 Objectives at same time
Rare 3 Objectives at same time
Common 2 objectives in order
Uncommon 3 Objectives in order
Rare 4 Objectives in order
Very rare 5 Objectives in order

If they are at the same time it means you can find em without needing to do one first. If they are ordered, it means the next objective appears after first one is fulfilled.

So what is the objective then? No one will really know for sure!

That is it. Nothing more. A simple version to demonstrate. Now try to put yourself in this place. What can we expect? We know the walls will be bland, but might be well done monolith stones so it isn't so unreal looking at least. We know it will be horizontal the whole time.. though it could be modified with layers so we might end up in 3 floors but one quest, we are not doing that for this example though.

We know it will probably have monsters, but we won't know the lay out until we dig in and the longer we do so the more clear it will get (and the more invested we will get). We might figure out if it is dense, spread out... but the lay out itself.. a mystery. We won't know where the traps are. We won't know what the boss is. We won't know the secret paths, which obviously pop up sometimes (not always.. more fun guessing and checking). We won't know if we got only 1 objective or more coming up. We won't know the ending if that is made to variate even if it turns out to be only 1 objective. Our imaginations will fill in gaps and create untold stories... "this dungeon must have been taken over by oozes... since that is all I am fighting so far..." while the objectives will provide the told part "You must help me before it is too late!!!" said the random NPC :P And the adventure begins...

Trappers will be in high demand, more then ever. They will love being so useful. Scouts will be deployed to gather intel in these unknown places, specially if you do them on reaper mode...

Every other class will end up pitted against the unknown, not the most elaborate place, but one still full of surprises. It won't be super off course, but it would be a lot of fun, more so if there was unique treasure that is very rare to find there, but there only. Very rare... a tiny chance... now this place has bait to increase the fun of its unknown aspects even more.. will it pan out that rare item... probably not, most often not, but its still fun looking for them in a place that keeps you guessing every time.

I see this place in my mind. It isnt perfect or ideal, this is the simple version. I am going to work out the more elaborate version update when its ready. A more advanced version would have more matrices, constrains, order of operations more carefully planned out, and is something that takes time and consideration to develop. It would have 3d modules instead of blocks, each hand crafted.. and then copied to make modified versions quickly and place random points about along with border paths. It could be done to produce a truly amazing astonishing endless realm of potential, or an overly simple thing like what is shown here.

Even this simple one here I would have loads of fun playing. I wouldn't play it non-stop, I would go do lots of stuff I know so well, but I would stop off here for some good old try to find it and go through the unknown adventures, old school style. A place that would keep me on my toes guessing, alert, and amazed in a maze :P

**Wonedream** · 03-10-2017, 07:01 AM

Wanted to add and subtract a bit from this to see how it might change.

First a few possible reasons it is so bland :P
-The whole thing takes place in an ancient artifact that scrambles itself like in some strange movie.. powerful magic scrambling it to hide its secrets.
-It is some sort of rift between Xoriat and Mechanus where law and chaos clash and merge into a monolithic yet chaotic place that it is.
-A paranoid and very powerful entity created it to befuddle and confound all who would dare his defeat. He created it to confuse all who entered, trying his best to make sure no one would ever know what to expect, and using that element of surprise to his advantage to destroy all who try.
-No one knows, this mysterious strange place just showed up and has everyone wondering whats going on. To their surprise, its different every time they enter, the very logic of the place twisting and contorting which only compounds the mystery.
-Blame it on a halfling. That always works!
-A powerful and friendly wizard has opened up DDO University and named it "The Old School". He has created a training ground for your mind, a place where you will need to quickly memorize the halls and rooms, and that will befuddle you far more then you might expect... all in order to train you! He offers his training services to heroes of all levels.
-Those freaking Reapers... this is THEIR fault. They are behind it... except the Devs don't tell us that, we got to find out the hard way :P
-The Gods have set up a playground so they can watch. You will hear thunderous laughter when you die, or applause when you are doing well.
-It is an experiment gone wrong..
-A large cube has falling out of the sky like a metour and landed near the city, it manifests monsters and changes its interior.. that is all that is known.
-Someone very powerful created this confusing place to prevent anyone from discovering the powerful artifacts deep within.
-It is actually some twisted dream reality that has been weaved into a puzzle by a powerful villain to be used has a base of operations.
-It is more demonic and evil then you think...
-A powerful spell went wrong, and this happened.
-Something very strange has been discovered under Korthos..
-It is an evil maze that lives...
-He said it was once known long ago to his people as "the Mouse Maze of Death"...

All various reasons why a bland block dungeon/maze has come to exist. It would be like stepping into a different reality, yes, but because there is a good story line justification.. this is something some evil wizard might think up of to avert those pesky heroes... I would have no problem wrapping my brain around the idea that some evil wizard or something did this... any of these reasons would work fine.

So that was adding a bit... just a bit of reasoning weaved into story line. Evil wizard makes maze. Simple enough.

Objective. This can be super simple too. Wouldn't care. You could even get rid of content. Wouldn't care. Evil wizard makes confusion maze, all the walls look bland.. no distinct features for the memory to lock on, and worse yet, this maze keeps changing so you don't know the way, where traps are, or didly what your up against. Evil Wiz plans to mess YOU up! This is gonna hurt if you think it will be easy :P

That works. Done.

Each level is just trying to get to the stairs.. and some boss. Done. Im in for the random shapes to run through fighting things I don't know what they will be next.. Im in for the surprises no other place has... the adventure!!! I am in because I don't know where the traps are at last, or secret doors, if there are any... but seeing the generator in action... the that simple one... it would be easy to set up a real guess it arena between me and those monsters!!!

So they could have barely any content, a good story line, and lots of surprises, and I am definitely down for that!

Or they could mix it up. I provided a simple list, each could have rhoutines with variables, operations with constraints, to make sure more content keeps us guessing more. This is also great, because half way through the quest, the adventure could change in nature.. maybe at first we need to find some NPC... then we need to defend them.. or it randomly gets something that doesnt match.. imagination fills gap... we find NPC and then somehow the quest turns into an extermination... a rescue mission.. kill the boss.... erm... a lot of this we are used to already :P But the point would be that we can not even predict what we are suppose to do from beginning to end.. so people aren't exploiting resets because they know it isn't the objective they are after. The first objective could be to figure out the objective... that would force people to invest enough they don't cop out.. it isn't worth it at that point. Easy fixes for things like that. This can be a lot of fun. Even the simple version. Old school!

**Wonedream** · 03-10-2017, 07:05 AM

I think I like the Old School idea most. It's just so... Old School!

"Welcome to the Old School! I am the dean of this University, my name is Thearasix. I have developed a training ground, I developed it to be deadly and to be difficult. The traps in this place will kill you. The secrets will hide from you. The monsters will ambush and devour you. The tricks will hinder you. And things will change in ways you can never pre determine to make sure your training is thorough. Some of the things I put within have wills and minds of their own, and now it may even be a bit of a problem. I could stop it, but what great opportunity for heroes to train! The Old School University has a lot to offer, you can find tombs down there sometimes, it is rare, but know it can happen. This is a university after all. You can find training papers and if you return them my excellent staff will train you unique feats or how to improve something with an education bonus. We hope to prepare you for the worst so you come out the best. Oh, and the reaper has hijacked some of the training grounds... I can't promise you won't see em down there. One last thing... your maps will magically erase themselves, and I used powerful magic to prevent all mapping methods, and now it can not be undone."

**Gramh_the_Bard** · 03-10-2017, 07:13 AM

Please stop flooding the forum with your bad idea. Thanks in advance.

**Wonedream** · 03-10-2017, 08:02 AM

Originally Posted by Gramh_the_Bard

Please stop flooding the forum with your bad idea. Thanks in advance.

That is a matter of opinion. No thanks, I will continue to explore these ideas. But I will not flood the place, I added this thread separate from the other for reasons I explained.

And please stop telling people what to do and putting down their ideas. Thanks in advance.

**Loromir** · 03-10-2017, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by Gramh_the_Bard

Please stop flooding the forum with your bad idea. Thanks in advance.

I think its a good idea. But SSG would never implement anything like this.

**AzB** · 03-10-2017, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by Gramh_the_Bard

Please stop flooding the forum with your bad idea. Thanks in advance.

I haven't read through his wall of text yet to see if I think it's a good idea or not. But here's an idea for you; if you think someone has a bad idea, there are two ways to respond to it.

1. Go on with you life
2. Express why you don't like the idea and join in on the discussion.

The internet is full of absolutely worthless criticisms along the lines of "that sucks". If you don't want to go into detail, at least give a 2 or 3 sentence overview as to *why* it sucks. Otherwise, you're contributing nothing, which ironically is what you are accusing the OP of doing.

**AzB** · 03-10-2017, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by Wonedream

I think I like the Old School idea most. It's just so... Old School!

"Welcome to the Old School! I am the dean of this University, my name is Thearasix. I have developed a training ground, I developed it to be deadly and to be difficult. The traps in this place will kill you. The secrets will hide from you. The monsters will ambush and devour you. The tricks will hinder you. And things will change in ways you can never pre determine to make sure your training is thorough. Some of the things I put within have wills and minds of their own, and now it may even be a bit of a problem. I could stop it, but what great opportunity for heroes to train! The Old School University has a lot to offer, you can find tombs down there sometimes, it is rare, but know it can happen. This is a university after all. You can find training papers and if you return them my excellent staff will train you unique feats or how to improve something with an education bonus. We hope to prepare you for the worst so you come out the best. Oh, and the reaper has hijacked some of the training grounds... I can't promise you won't see em down there. One last thing... your maps will magically erase themselves, and I used powerful magic to prevent all mapping methods, and now it can not be undone."

This sounds like a fun dungeon. I wouldn't want them all to be like this, but one would be great.

And if it's going to have any sort of unique bonus for completion, it should be essentially impossible.

**Wonedream** · 03-10-2017, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by Loromir

I think its a good idea. But SSG would never implement anything like this.

Why not?

Are they not smart enough?

Are they worried we might have fun?

Are they unable to figure out a way to keep it from getting into the entangle codes from the past?

Do they hate surprises?

Are they obsessed with seeing how much they can get us to do the same thing over and over?

Do they completely and utterly ignore the players, the forums, and pretty much everything?

Are they afraid it would be too difficult and time consuming because they don't want to try something new?

Budget and money? How hard would it be to do a quick job version and make us happy? Those who don't like it.. don't go in and see if you can survive the unknown and stick to your hamster wheels! For those who want a break from the hamster wheels.. won't this add a lot of incentive to keep us going longer and stronger? So money... well Ill put my money this way!

I suppose any of these would be reasons they wouldn't do it. But I will put my faith in them, that none of these describe them at all. And that it could happen, and that maybe even now they are thinking about it and how it would be if they played it. It helps to put yourself in there in a advance a bit with the mind to help pan out more what your aiming for then to just build it with no conception first.

Maybe it will happen soon too. I live in a world of possibilities, it may be improbable but I don't know for sure, so I will assume it is possible :P

**levy1964** · 03-10-2017, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by Gramh_the_Bard

Please stop flooding the forum with your bad idea. Thanks in advance.

whos gives u?....shut up! reading his weird idea's are better fun, then playing unplayable!

**Gramh_the_Bard** · 03-10-2017, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by levy1964

whos gives u?....shut up! reading his weird idea's are better fun, then playing unplayable!

i give me, and that's all that matters. the idea is dumb, and i'm glad you're entertained by them but i say it's better to play the game as it is than some pipe dream random dungeon system that would take too much time and resources to make worthwhile.

**Annex** · 03-10-2017, 12:06 PM

Over the years, many players have suggested a DDO Random Dungeon Generator, myself included. I am sure the game developers working on DDO have extensive knowledge of such things as part of their training and do not require game programming lessons. Unfortunately, it seems rather obvious the DDO game engine was not designed for such things. A high degree of randomization would probably crush the poor DDO servers and the company obviously lacks the budget for extensive game engine rebuilds.

Given those constraints, I think the Tower of Frost offers a more realistic template for how a random dungeon could work in DDO. Create 20 dungeon squares like the levels in the Tower of Frost, all appearing on a single map. Put doors or teleport tiles in two corners or each square. Randomize how the doors and teleport squares connect to one another. In each square, randomize some traps, some monsters, and so forth, using the tools already included in the current game engine.

The 20 squares in this first dungeon could use sewer art resources. Call it Random Dungeon 1. Upon completing Random Dungeon 1, include an entrance to Random Dungeon 2, a la the way the Depths chain works in House Deneith. Random Dungeon 2, a new dungeon as far as the game engine is concerned, once again includes 20 squares, this time using Cave art assets. Create 10 dungeons in this manner, 200 total squares, 10 art asset types, chain them together, and call it a Random Dungeon.

I know this is much, much less ambitious than what the original poster (or myself) wants, but I am pretty sure the game engine could actually accommodate what I describe right now.

**Loromir** · 03-10-2017, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Wonedream

Why not?

Are they not smart enough?

Are they worried we might have fun?

Are they unable to figure out a way to keep it from getting into the entangle codes from the past?

Do they hate surprises?

Are they obsessed with seeing how much they can get us to do the same thing over and over?

Do they completely and utterly ignore the players, the forums, and pretty much everything?

Are they afraid it would be too difficult and time consuming because they don't want to try something new?

Budget and money? How hard would it be to do a quick job version and make us happy? Those who don't like it.. don't go in and see if you can survive the unknown and stick to your hamster wheels! For those who want a break from the hamster wheels.. won't this add a lot of incentive to keep us going longer and stronger? So money... well Ill put my money this way!

I suppose any of these would be reasons they wouldn't do it. But I will put my faith in them, that none of these describe them at all. And that it could happen, and that maybe even now they are thinking about it and how it would be if they played it. It helps to put yourself in there in a advance a bit with the mind to help pan out more what your aiming for then to just build it with no conception first.

Maybe it will happen soon too. I live in a world of possibilities, it may be improbable but I don't know for sure, so I will assume it is possible :P

I would love to see something like this implemented...I just don't think they will take on something like this. Budget, Money, Time to develop, Complexity...it won't happen.

**Wonedream** · 03-10-2017, 03:19 PM

Can the Devs add a wall to a dungeon that is sometimes there and sometimes not like they do with other things?

If not, they are the worst programmers ever.. because I KNOW 100% it is easy and wouldn't even take long at all. (Try making a real working Airplane in 3d... I know a LOT about that process, how to turn name codes into 3d, and make sure every little part from nut to bolt is in the model.. I used to be a virtual model manager for AIRBUS, it was my job to know these things... easy, really... easy.. the only reason people are saying its hard is because they don't know how easy it really is and making uneducated guesses it would be hard. If you have the mind for it, things like this are not hard one bit. Wouldn't even take that long to make, I bet they could whip something out in 1 week flat, but if they made that a month they could save themselves from making a lot of unseen errors (part of learning, a good thing). Heck, this could even be done in a day if you know exactly what you are doing.

I think they can add walls to dungeons that are there sometimes and not there others. And if so, then it is also easy to begin controlling the probabilities of occurrences.. I mean really fricking easy... my god easy... no excuses easy... come on easy...

The argument that this would be too difficult is an argument of someone who can't do things that haven't already been done. It is not the argument of a mad genius creator/inventor. When Henry Ford said he wanted a new compressed 6 pistol engine, engineers told him it was impossible by the laws of physics. He said their jobs depended on breaking the laws of physics, and if they didn't figure it out, he would find others who could. They figured it out very shortly after that.

Same thing with the Wright brothers... "you will never fly"

And now here in these forums "This is impossible, it is too tough, it will never work" spoken like the same people who said we couldnt have airplanes or 6 pistol engines... who were all wrong and would have held back progress had they been listened to.

I KNOW the devs can do this, and I KNOW if they try, they can do a better job then most places even with a simple system like this one. I also KNOW they can make a far more state-of-the-art version that would blow anyone's mind because it is so vastly rich with endless twisting content, dungeons, monsters... that it almost begins to feel eery real. That takes brains, and collaborated effort to get the state-of-the-art version. A version, by the way, that we all seem to agree DOES NOT EXIST ON THE MARKET.. and I promise you... if it did I would be THERE playing THAT GAME every single DAY!

So, I am hoping DDO is the first, because if it isn't, it won't be able to keep up with the new environment of super fast content. Such a system would forever change MMORPG, and others would simply copy as best as they can to compete. This is the game I want to be playing most of all.. something that is NOT predictable and filled with vast arrays of twists and endless adventures where I can not predict and tell others where things are. I want to be exploring every freaking time almost, not repeating stuff that has absolutely no adventure left (just a farm grind...) or exploration left in it at all PERIOD x1000!!!

DDO needs to be the first to master this. And they CAN do it. They ought to do it. They ought do it so they end up loving it, and being amazed at their own genius. If they pull this off, yes, they get the seal of Genius attached to their names forever! If not... they are good programmers.. but won't be among the best. They got to do something to stand out if they want to be seen! Something no one else has succeeded in doing yet.. an awesome randomized system. This one already would be awesome fun, and it is simple, fast, easy, and cheap to do. It would be a good place for them to train, learn, trouble shoot, and gather intellectual data on the processes of making this work from which they can add a superior version later.

Thank you to the one who said this would be great one time. Totally! The simple one should be a one time special place (where every quest is also one time ever... all quests being deleted after used as if they never existed..

:P). It is the mad wizard's creation, a wizard who used giant monolithic stones and WANTED his dungeon to be bland so there were no distinct features to help orientate the mind and lock down on positions. He WANTED you to get lost in seeing tunnels that all look the same. And while you are lost, he WANTED to make sure you die... long before you even get close to the end. As I said, story line is easy..

I will add the perfect system later on a separate thread focused on the advanced version, I sorta tried already with the Random Reaper thread, but I want to make sure I communicate an organized and well thought out plan so the Devs can build of that, borrow from it, and take of it that which helps them see new potentials and possibilities for game evolution. The advanced version shall be so good, they won't need another. Simple version is quick fix for us now, while perfect version needs to be done so it will blow our brains and make us drooling with anticipation every time.

Both would be mazes, and that is already fun (simple version is 2d maze, advanced version is 3d maze). And to make sure it is more maze like.. kill the map! Now you can't look at map and see the way.. gotta use your memory for a change. This place will tax you in many ways. If you can't handle that, don't do it and go repeat something you did 1000 times already. Many of us crave that, so do not get in our way and let us have and enjoy it. DDO can be bigger then it is!

I think this sort of thing should be done twice. A simple and an advanced version. The advanced version should be so good, there is not point adding more, just alter the variables and you can then generate different dungeons that will fit criteria every time. We used constraints to control system flow, so things happen how we want them and not a mess of digital soup or worse... physical soup.

They can do this and they can do this easy!

Also.. random game music would fit very well in this place :P

**Wonedream** · 03-10-2017, 04:41 PM

So I looked at Diablo 3 (never played it, played 1 and 2... I think 1 was the best, even though it was the simplest.. I had the most fun playing 1).

It doesn't come close... its got... Diablo mechanics and that is already bad. View angle is fixed. Lame! It isn't even remotely like DDO. It doesnt give a good preview one bit because DDO is a totally different system with far superior game mechanics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbZPFv7irF0

(But it does show that making a randomized SLAYER area would be really really easy to do :P)

This simple version is more comparable to a far older and more simple game... that was one of the best at its time...

DUNGEON MASTER

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxNNp2Y6YTM

Take a look. Walls.. soooo bland... but game... SO FUNNNNN!

I LOVED DUNGEON MASTER. I played it like mad. And it was choppy, not smooth, its angle stuck in 1st person... but let us imagine the dungeons of this simple version end up like this, but with better graphics (still horizontal..).

You still don't know where anything is, what it is, or even what you are doing until you find out your objective (so players can't reset to get the objectives they like). Objectives can be more then one at the same time or sequenced... or just one, so you don't know once you found out your objective if it is the only objective there is.

Yes, this would be extreme fun... not just sorta fun we are talking about... EXTREMELY FUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN! FUN FUN FUN FUN FUN FUN FUN!

Even its simple content (or most simple.. find boss and stairs... ) would still be lots of fun. I want to NOT know the quest at all more often then know the quest. This does that! Even this simple version would be a breath of fresh air for so so so many players. A few don't like it, and haven't even tried it yet. And if/when it comes out, I bet they will try it even if they say they won't. Oh my god.. what if they end up liking it too? Noooooo... they MUST be strong and resist the fun-ness of being in a new place all the time. They must... go back to the hamster grind wheel and do things with no surprises... back to the rhoutine quests... no adventure, and in most cases no death if they are farming wisely... and when you are farming 100 PLs, you don't have time for risks... you don't do things where you might lose time... reaper temptation challenge is for the end... so far away... will I up the challenge when my goal is a complete toon? No. I will do what it takes to get that toon complete asap, and that will be the "challenge" and fun instead.. so instead of having fun playing the game.. I will have fun BREAKING the game... it isn't suppose to be like this!!!

Here is the solution.. right here in this thread!!!

**Pyed-Pyper** · 03-10-2017, 04:57 PM

I don't think your idea will work ...

because ...

putting together a successful quest takes a lot of good hands-on work to make it work in a good way.

Remember how quests used to be advertised as 'hand crafted'?* Mobs bug out, mobs are stupid in that they don't get the big picture, mobs don't understand balance, mobs don't understand challenge, and mobs are run by programming that is the root of that stupidity.

At it's most basic, a quest is a story. And you don't get a story, much less a good story, randomly. If the players are going to be the millions of monkeys banging on millions of typewriters trying to replicate Shakespeare, then there had better be a way to save that random dungeon and allow others to rate it.

* (IMO, it looks like SSG is moving away from that concept, but that is different topic.)

**Annex** · 03-10-2017, 05:24 PM

I do not mean to be intentionally obtuse. From my reading, it appears DDO developers use of an in-house scripting tool when creating dungeons, working within the constraints of that tool. I have used scripting languages to create stuff but have no experience with the DDO dungeon creation tool. I presume developers start with a 3D environment, choose objects from a library of such things, and slowly build up a dungeon space--a ground tile, a wall here, a boulder there, and so forth. They then add triggers, monsters, light sources, etc.

My opinion: When a character enters a dungeon, it appears the entire dungeon already exists, previously created using the procedure above with the data stored in every game client. At the moment of dungeon instance creation, the server rolls for all random elements and they become set for all players. If this were not true, a situation could exists where different players experience different conditions in the same dungeon.

Again my opinion: The client must 'know' what objects to draw out to the limit of a character's vision. It must also anticipate what objects the character might see shortly and buffer those. Therefore the server must have that information ready and transmit it to the clients. Things like floors, walls, ceilings, boulders, and so forth remain static and so that data resides full time on the client. The position of monsters and random elements changes over time and so the server needs to track those things and transmit position and existence data in real time to every involved client.

I am sure the programmers at Standing Stone could write something to create random dungeons on the fly, given time and budget. The problem occurs when 50 players start new random dungeons at the same time. Now the server needs to randomly generate every variable for all 50 of those dungeons, store that data server side, and transmit that data to all involved clients. I worry that load would cause serious problems for the servers. My previous post was an attempt to visualize a somewhat random dungeon space that would not place a huge strain on servers.

You mentioned the ability to control if a wall gets drawn. As an example, the quest Dirty Laundry contains two walls like that--one or the other gets drawn and so the dungeon can go in either of two directions but never both. A grid like random dungeon could definitely work using such walls to control the path through the grid. Gosh. I recall suggesting that a couple years ago.

Anyway, if appears the DDO dungeon scripting tool allows dungeon developers to add a certain number of random objects, probably with some sort of limit to ease server load. Without spending one dollar on changes to the game engine, it should be possible to use the existing scripting tool to make a somewhat random dungeon using procedures like those I offered. I fully realize a good programmer with enough time, money, and hot pockets could do something super much more fabulously awesome.

**Wonedream** · 03-10-2017, 05:59 PM

If it can't be done on this system, which I do not believe for one second...

It might be time to consider a new version of DDO itself... one that can generate fast content on demand as well as provide hand crafted quests.

If they started making hand crafted cube chucks of dungeon, using name codes to determine factors such as N9C so that computer only places modules with name code S9C to the side referred to in N9C next to N9C... only modules that have aligned paths would ever land next to each other. S abrev. for south 9 for position (maybe lower left corner of south side is the pathway). C abrev. for connector. This is not the entire name of the module, it is something in the name that identifies what qualities it has. This makes it possible to constrain logic paths, and once they get the basic logic down it gets super easy from there to start putting this all together. N9CDIDNW133GTE... this is what a finished name might look like. Each part is a tag so we can pull up only the ones with that tag and isolate them. This gives us control. Then attach probables to the lists that are pulled up... one gets selected, it has S9C in the appropriate tag, and will fit every single time. Wallah.. we are beginning to make a logic system that will pan out constants that always make sense (using other tags to further isolate constraints as needed then controlling the probabilities).

Each named module is almost like an item. It is a 3d module of a dungeon bit.. a chunk of dungeon in a cube. Each chuck is hand made (super easy lol.. and lots of fun I will add!!!!). They become little pieces of art, but are like legos sorta (rubix model is more suitable here).

Can DDO make 3d modules like this. You bet they can! Look at what they are doing now already. This would be easy. They create a stock pile of parts. One way to speed up production is to make a piece... say a hallway. This is a cube with a path running straight through it or turning up, down, left, right or possible even back (its in the name what it does).. regardless its a tunnel... lets make it a straight tunnel to make this easier. They can add features to the walls, decorate them, throw in some litter... now it is a better dungeon. They can save it there, or add generation points for where mobs may or may not appear, traps, and features also. They already have done this in many quests we already played.

So, they take this tiny piece, and get it prepared. Test it all alone. Toon appears in smallest quest ever... a single cube model for testing. "What is this place"

"What if I told you DDO is a Hamster Wheel and you are in your Mind Neo"

"Is this the Matrix?"

"No, this is a module inside a module creation program that is being tested and you are not real"

"Shut up Morpheas, you don't belong here!"

"Neo... you must save this place from turning into a nightmare of repetition. Lives are at stake here, they might end up.... BORED... save them Neo.. don't let it happen or you will share their fate!"

"NOOOOOoooooooooooooooo!!!!!" (drama)

Back to the test... poor Neo has module go active. One of the monster spawning points spawns... monsters! They are random.. from a simple list, not using matrices to further complicate possible outcomes. Turns out to be Owlbears... 7 of them, and they are real agro and way tougher then Neo expected.. they swarm him.. knock him down over and over... he struggles to get on his feat...

"Free your mind Neo... you can beat these Creatures... "

"Get out of here you twad.. your ruining this example!!!"

He jumps back, because he is already almost dead. They won't let up. He hits speed boost and runs... not much to go.. it is a small module.. 100 feet by 100 feet by 100 feet... maybe 50... it is a chuck of dungeon and nothing else. He runs over a trap that appeared in one of the random trap points, there are 4 of em in this place, owl bears chasing him... poison... gas.. now he can't see well.. poison gas isn't suppose to do that!... he runs through the gas.. and reaches the... edge of the module... white space greets him and he sees pesty Morpheus standing there trying to look all cool and wise..

"welcome to the Matrix Neo, Free your mind and you can break the limits and constraints of human doubt! The Devs need only realize they can put these dungeon chucks together to make dungeons, and that how easy it can be. Make it happen for the sake of DDO"

"Shut up already!!!"

Suddenly Gary Gygax appears!!!

"Old School valiant one... if it is made.. they will come"

Wait is this that baseball movie now...

Humor and sentiment aside.

This module can then be copied and the copy renamed where renaming is needed to specify and tag the difference. It gets copied, played with, more features added, another path carved out, a few random generator points moves around. Saved. Placed in database where it will be pulled up when its matching specs are isolated and placed into a probability list (another tag can identify if it is more probable then others in the list) somewhere in the tag a single letter C U R V can identify if it is common uncommon etc. Probs then divide rationed modules spread into 100% list and calculate how many commons, uncommons, rares etc are on that list and divides their shares evenly. Common tags getting higher probability shares then rarer ones.

This is how you start to have some things pop up more often then others. There are ways to even stack this procedure to really complicate it so much the human mind can no longer comprehend the entire array of possible outcomes... and then you start to get something that can make really good dungeons. No content yet. First just focus on one thing... getting 2 random modules to align.. putting one down first which tells the computer which ones to pull for probable but matching pathway/styled modules. Modules can have special identification for special modules as needed. You start to develop a control panel of operations and learn how to control its perimeters or how to randomize its perimeters yet keep em within constrained limits to CONTROL their logic.

If they can got one module to randomly appear snap point to point corner to corner face to face next to another... both dungeon chunks 100' of cube (for example) and both operational for toons to fight in, activate spawns, traps... playable... they got it down already. After that they just need to play with logic a bit till it starts pumping out the way they like.. and setting perimeter ranges along with perimeter probabilities (so the perimeters change within the limits that won't even make choppy laggy crunch zones and such).

The next part to work out is building order perimeters.. the way branch modules spread from starter module. If it has more then one starting point (to complicate things for players.. ) it still uses one starting point for dungeon spawning... looks at the starter piece, figures out how many pathways and which sides start cube has, and places appropiate modules where they need to be. The starter module now has branch modules. Lets say 4. 3 are north, east, south. The last one branches down.. so a module beneath this module lines up, along with 3 around it. All have pathways that line up.

The branch modules might branch again or terminate immediate. At some point terminal modules are placed about. This can be done to make massive super complexes if you set big perimeters... tell computer to keep adding branches at random (which have perimeters saying which are more likely to show up) until 30 and then end all non-dead end branches. Bam... that is a big place. Maybe too big.. Easy.. set smaller perimeters and use new space... like so many quests where you step through some door and end up in a new instance. Put some modules in one instance, more in another. This keeps lag issues from getting ugly. Know what perimeters work and which make problems.

Can they make modules? We play them all the time. Can they make module parts that align and are selected because of their tag IDs which also include how rare they are and so on so these pulled modules know their own probabilities right away when spread into 100%.

Here is another easy trick to mix it up and add new perimeters.. more controls... and more variable outcomes (more potential)..

You can alter probabilities without touching the modules names... to make even this part way beyond anything humans can guess... we can make this a maze in more ways then one... a maze of mazes... I mean.. amazing.. make a list (with hand chosen probabilities) with commands (copied from initial command and alters as needed.. etc) that are more probable and less probable. These commands tell computer all modules with tag so and so are now more common or now very rare or now dominant, if this list is itself randomly choosing which command to implement (from a list of probabilities set by Dev team). Now all underwater dungeon mods are dominant... now all sewers are rare... now all room mods are rare... etc..

This then modifies the initial list to make it far harder to comprehend, guess, or know in advance. In this case you would see the results, but you could set this much up to end up with incredible dungeons... no monsters yet. Lets make it a beautiful 3d maze of winding, twisting, complicate paths and rooms, so it starts to look like a real dungeon and not the Training Halls at Old School University :P

Yeah... I think it can be done. And I don't think it would be that hard either. It might be tough for a bit working out the exact logic systems, but getting things to randomly align is easy, and making sure they are fitting is also easy.

I gotta stop.. I am not suppose to be talking about the advanced version anyways since this thread is for the simple one.

Almost forget.. they make these.. copy them and modify/rename copies to quickly generate a library of potentials. This is where the style comes from. This library of dungeon modules. They develop a stock pile of unique dungeon chunks (modules) that can be well beyond our ability to memorize. Now we are getting lost. Good!

**Wonedream** · 03-10-2017, 07:00 PM