Random Dungeons Old School Simple Version

[Wonedream]

(To the Devs, my main toon thanks you for the wonderful update with Racial PLs . I was in game and heard a description and liked it... thinking yeah.. my main is gonna get that too . My alts are swimming in tears, but I came up with a plan for them too, as I gear up my main getting all PLd I will dump lots of stuff of them. If my main ever runs out... my alts will have gear.. Ill just play em casual to enjoy the neat things I never used :P then go back to my main for some R10 action)

Now for the post:

While I was working out an elaborate system for the procedures and probability matrices for the ingredients to make a dungeon generator that generates truly excellence state of the art awesomeness that will have so many of us drooling with endless anticipation as we get lost over and over in the variety itself... I was looking back at the old basics... the old school DM guide for AD&D. Nostalgia kicked in so hard, I felt it heavy, I remembered when I was a kid making dungeons for my friends to play, hours just making them, it was fun. Later I worked out my own random systems, because I found it was more fun to DM when I didn't know what was gonna happen either. So I strolled through memory lane and found the lists of random monsters for dungeons lvls 1 to 10, and some of the other random lists too.

I asked myself what would a simple version look like and how would it be to play.

You can get an idea of it by looking at the variables, so I wanted to share some simple variables to demonstrate how easy it is to expect what and what not. And would even a simple bland dungeon with lots of secrets, simple mechanics, and odd formations still be fun? Let us take a better look and ask ourselves what this simple product would be like to play.


First the random monster charts from old school:

http://www.adnd3egame.com/documents/dmg.pdf

They are in the back, with other random charts of stuff. The monsters are not the same as here, easy to adjust.

What about the dungeons.

Let us use a very simple method this time, instead of modules with connecting pathways, let us use bricks... big bricks.. bland, but easy to program and randomize...

Look at this to help understand what it would look like:

https://www.myth-weavers.com/generate_dungeon.php


Now we can begin the simple operations to turn this stuff into an adventure, lets keep it simple for this demonstration and see if the end result looks like fun


The simple version

Each block in the map is a wall block, solid, you can't pass through it. This dungeon has in its descriptions to justify its bland nature "crog that mad wizard made a poor version of of a dungeon to randomize itself to protect him so know one will ever just know and have a plan to use against him.. bad crog bad now we must kill you"... whatever can work, easy to add story so our toons say, ok, that is why it is made of blocks. This is a simple bland version, remember.


You go into block land dungeon. The blocks look like large monoliths, so it has this crypt feel to it, at least its not so bad. Rooms next to halls? They will leave open spaces. Not if the room is told to add walls at its perimeters.. maybe 1 or 2 meters thick. Now you can't pass. Boom Room!

As it looks now it is horizontal only. This is a simple learning version, still fun, but the baby, not the papa! So let it be simple and horizontal, easy to make, easy to pull off. This is a 2d version.

How might this be unpredictable then since its so bland?

Width of dungeon is random. We dont know.

Height of dungeon is random. Setting can be set to vary and be random. So we wouldn't know the size of the dungeon for beginners.

Room count: On this generator you get none, few, some, many, too many. These can be random. We might end up in just a maze of hallways. Or lots of rooms. It would take a few rooms... halls... to figure out which is which sometimes.. here we are guessing again.

Room sizes can also be set to randomized specs, so we might end up in a place with lots of tightly packed rooms, or spread out large ones. Another thing that keeps us guessing. We are inside this shifting maze remember.

Randomness. Play with this one You can set it up to 95% random or 0% random. So here, we can even set it so the nature of the randomness of the dungeon is now random. It might not be as random, it might be very random. We won't even know how random it is :P What a lot of guessing. Im geting lost, but its fun!

Deadends removed: Play it it.. make some variations. We will figure out if we got dead ends if we start running into em, but we won't know if they are all over the place right away usually, even that will take some running around, scouting... What is it like this time? So it would end up random if and how many dead ends there are. Now not only are we guessing, we are in a maze! This is really getting fun, even if the walls are bland! I like this game... more please.. onward with the demo!

Secret doors: It might have none, it might be filled with secrets... this too can be random so we don't automatically know if it has em or not. Them scouts be working hard!!!

Concealed doors: They might spring open if we get too close.. monsters come rushing out. Maybe not. But another thing to keep an eye out for. Will they always be there, no, so we always end up guessing.

Sparseness: Is this place crowded or spread out. How much can it vary, and how long will it take to figure out? This might get constrained some so it isnt so crowded lag and other things happen, simply set the constraints so it cant get to that point ever. Know the deflection point so you never go near the breaking point. Easy enough. And with all the other things to watch out for, its getting hard to keep up with all the variables... people will probably start making the wrong guesses more often.. but that is just the dungeon, nothing to do with monsters yet.

Level: In our example we will borrow but augment the level idea. The generator I use for the example puts monsters in the rooms, not much, but its for PnP, a different kind of game then online fast action. But you can choose levels 1-20... it already covers heriocs :P lol. Let us assume it adds more monsters and that part is a bit different. And that monsters can also appear in hallway blocks at times, not as often, but it happens. We will add the modified version in a bit.

Grid Size: I couldnt figure out how this would effect anything. It looked like a printing feature. Not sure.

Not sure was seed is referring to either. But this shows a block system.. helps get the idea of how random the environment can get already with simple 2d.


Order of Operations:

This one is much simpler. So first it spawns a map.

It adds monsters, content, traps, tricks, surprises to rooms. It adds a bit of the same to hallways, just not as much (or maybe more :P).

Here we can modify the lists, go back and look at AD&D for some simple insights, and deliver something based on the content within the game. There are things in those lists that aren't here, so modify a bit.

Randomize Contents is in the AD&D DMs guide for a quick snap shot look.
Empty rooms with junk.. things about
Monsters
Treasure
Trick/Trap
Monsters and Treasure

This is outta the book.. so rooms. Modify it a tad
Empty rooms
Monsters
Treasure
Tricks/Traps
Ambush
Puzzle
NPC

And put it in a matrix

Empty Room Monsters Treasure Tricks/Traps Ambush Puzzle NPC
Empty Room
Monsters
Treasure
Trick/Traps
Ambush
Puzzle
NPC


If it gets two of the same that means it gets one. If it gets two mixes.. it gets mixed. Mixes up like.. monsters and treasure.. Monsters and tricks/traps, monsters and ambush (more monsters after fight.. and you thought it was over), monsters and puzzle (always fun trying to solve puzzles with monsters attacking you..)... Treasure might be concealed.. so it looks like an empty room... or the monsters hiding.. or they just appear out of no where by magic.. by crossing the content into a matrix you get 49+7 56 possible things that can happen in a room. Add more variables or cross em again and those number can change quickly. Just adding another matrix.... so you can get monster ambush treasure or puzzle trap ambush brings it up to 343+49+7=399 variations. Then it can have a sequence or none, adding more variations on top of this so that you start with monsters after they die a puzzle appear and after you solve it a concealed door opens and monsters spring an ambush (sequenced), or you enter a room with a puzzle, monsters guarding it, and the concealed door ambush is sprung when you enter thinking it won't be so many monsters (thus the ambush)... (non-sequenced).

Room complexity:
Most likely 1 content
Use matrix of 2 contents (might still be 1) ... check if sequenced or not
Use matrix of 3 contents (might be 2 or 1 still) .. check if sequenced or not




It adds a starting place... might put you in the middle of a fight right away.

There might be only 1 starting place... there might be many and each player that enters ends up somewhere else in the dungeon... sometimes you got to find the party since you are all spread out.

Starter:
Most common One place (party all comes in at same place as usual)
Rare Multiple starter points (party comes in and is randomly placed in one of the starting points, they might be spread apart and will have to find each other to team up) This can also occur later on if they have to go into a teleporter if the mission has a twist, so they might end up getting separated later on. If it happens right away an exp bonus could kick in to keep them from resetting it, or it could increase the chances of some unique item dropping so they brave it anyways)


It adds a simple theme/mission/objective


Last part.

Themes/missions/objectives:

Rescue Mission (place some random thing or person that gives objective... place dead or alive subject somewhere... chance of boss)
Escort (Help so and so get to such place.. or kill such boss... chance that so and so being escorted will turn mid quest, at end, or not at all)
Guard Something (Don't let them destroy it.. or them... after holding ground for a set time.. go find the boss who organized the attack and teach him)
Plunder (Random NPC quest givers tells tales of great treasure somewhere here.. chances for rare items go up.. turns out its being guarded)
Treasure Hunt (Quest giver says there is treasure.. find it to obtain objective or at least find out it doesnt exist (possible new objective or quest end)
Stop the Evil (NPC quest giver tells about some great evil.. a sorcerer, wizard, lich, dragon.. some mean sounding boss... go stop it!)
Collect the parts (Go find em and assemble such and such to stop so and so. )
Investigate (Find out what happened by simply getting to the end... )
Exterminate (Kill em all... they must be stopped... all of them!!!)
Sabotage (Get in there and set it up to go boom... )
Revenge (NPC quest giver offers reward if you avenge the death of their loved one... it might be worth it...)


Now in most of these cases you have a quest giving thing or person (first objective if find out what the objective is). It connects to where the result activator is that ends the quest or triggers next objective. It is possible there is a barrier in between, a key and a door.

Tell computer to lock room with target (boss, objective goal... ) if it generates a barrier, or randomly use some barriers that will always fit.. maybe boss is surrounded by force field and several levers must be pulled to stop force field... barrier... solution can be randomized.. but must be constrained carefully so the means to over come the barrier is always within reach and the target is always beyond the barrier. In this case locked rooms or putting forces fields is easy and works well. The computer can then place key in any room but locked one. It can even use multiple keys for that room as long as they aren't in that room and not beyond a barrier out of reach.


Objective twists and developments:

Common 1 Objective only.. (simple quest.. can still be a maze of fun..)
Uncommon 2 Objectives at same time
Rare 3 Objectives at same time
Common 2 objectives in order
Uncommon 3 Objectives in order
Rare 4 Objectives in order
Very rare 5 Objectives in order

If they are at the same time it means you can find em without needing to do one first. If they are ordered, it means the next objective appears after first one is fulfilled.

So what is the objective then? No one will really know for sure!



That is it. Nothing more. A simple version to demonstrate. Now try to put yourself in this place. What can we expect? We know the walls will be bland, but might be well done monolith stones so it isn't so unreal looking at least. We know it will be horizontal the whole time.. though it could be modified with layers so we might end up in 3 floors but one quest, we are not doing that for this example though.

We know it will probably have monsters, but we won't know the lay out until we dig in and the longer we do so the more clear it will get (and the more invested we will get). We might figure out if it is dense, spread out... but the lay out itself.. a mystery. We won't know where the traps are. We won't know what the boss is. We won't know the secret paths, which obviously pop up sometimes (not always.. more fun guessing and checking). We won't know if we got only 1 objective or more coming up. We won't know the ending if that is made to variate even if it turns out to be only 1 objective. Our imaginations will fill in gaps and create untold stories... "this dungeon must have been taken over by oozes... since that is all I am fighting so far..." while the objectives will provide the told part "You must help me before it is too late!!!" said the random NPC :P And the adventure begins...


Trappers will be in high demand, more then ever. They will love being so useful. Scouts will be deployed to gather intel in these unknown places, specially if you do them on reaper mode...

Every other class will end up pitted against the unknown, not the most elaborate place, but one still full of surprises. It won't be super off course, but it would be a lot of fun, more so if there was unique treasure that is very rare to find there, but there only. Very rare... a tiny chance... now this place has bait to increase the fun of its unknown aspects even more.. will it pan out that rare item... probably not, most often not, but its still fun looking for them in a place that keeps you guessing every time.


I see this place in my mind. It isnt perfect or ideal, this is the simple version. I am going to work out the more elaborate version update when its ready. A more advanced version would have more matrices, constrains, order of operations more carefully planned out, and is something that takes time and consideration to develop. It would have 3d modules instead of blocks, each hand crafted.. and then copied to make modified versions quickly and place random points about along with border paths. It could be done to produce a truly amazing astonishing endless realm of potential, or an overly simple thing like what is shown here.


Even this simple one here I would have loads of fun playing. I wouldn't play it non-stop, I would go do lots of stuff I know so well, but I would stop off here for some good old try to find it and go through the unknown adventures, old school style. A place that would keep me on my toes guessing, alert, and amazed in a maze :P

[Wonedream]

Wanted to add and subtract a bit from this to see how it might change.

First a few possible reasons it is so bland :P
-The whole thing takes place in an ancient artifact that scrambles itself like in some strange movie.. powerful magic scrambling it to hide its secrets.
-It is some sort of rift between Xoriat and Mechanus where law and chaos clash and merge into a monolithic yet chaotic place that it is.
-A paranoid and very powerful entity created it to befuddle and confound all who would dare his defeat. He created it to confuse all who entered, trying his best to make sure no one would ever know what to expect, and using that element of surprise to his advantage to destroy all who try.
-No one knows, this mysterious strange place just showed up and has everyone wondering whats going on. To their surprise, its different every time they enter, the very logic of the place twisting and contorting which only compounds the mystery.
-Blame it on a halfling. That always works!
-A powerful and friendly wizard has opened up DDO University and named it "The Old School". He has created a training ground for your mind, a place where you will need to quickly memorize the halls and rooms, and that will befuddle you far more then you might expect... all in order to train you! He offers his training services to heroes of all levels.
-Those freaking Reapers... this is THEIR fault. They are behind it... except the Devs don't tell us that, we got to find out the hard way :P
-The Gods have set up a playground so they can watch. You will hear thunderous laughter when you die, or applause when you are doing well.
-It is an experiment gone wrong..
-A large cube has falling out of the sky like a metour and landed near the city, it manifests monsters and changes its interior.. that is all that is known.
-Someone very powerful created this confusing place to prevent anyone from discovering the powerful artifacts deep within.
-It is actually some twisted dream reality that has been weaved into a puzzle by a powerful villain to be used has a base of operations.
-It is more demonic and evil then you think...
-A powerful spell went wrong, and this happened.
-Something very strange has been discovered under Korthos..
-It is an evil maze that lives...
-He said it was once known long ago to his people as "the Mouse Maze of Death"...

All various reasons why a bland block dungeon/maze has come to exist. It would be like stepping into a different reality, yes, but because there is a good story line justification.. this is something some evil wizard might think up of to avert those pesky heroes... I would have no problem wrapping my brain around the idea that some evil wizard or something did this... any of these reasons would work fine.


So that was adding a bit... just a bit of reasoning weaved into story line. Evil wizard makes maze. Simple enough.



Objective. This can be super simple too. Wouldn't care. You could even get rid of content. Wouldn't care. Evil wizard makes confusion maze, all the walls look bland.. no distinct features for the memory to lock on, and worse yet, this maze keeps changing so you don't know the way, where traps are, or didly what your up against. Evil Wiz plans to mess YOU up! This is gonna hurt if you think it will be easy :P


That works. Done.


Each level is just trying to get to the stairs.. and some boss. Done. Im in for the random shapes to run through fighting things I don't know what they will be next.. Im in for the surprises no other place has... the adventure!!! I am in because I don't know where the traps are at last, or secret doors, if there are any... but seeing the generator in action... the that simple one... it would be easy to set up a real guess it arena between me and those monsters!!!


So they could have barely any content, a good story line, and lots of surprises, and I am definitely down for that!



Or they could mix it up. I provided a simple list, each could have rhoutines with variables, operations with constraints, to make sure more content keeps us guessing more. This is also great, because half way through the quest, the adventure could change in nature.. maybe at first we need to find some NPC... then we need to defend them.. or it randomly gets something that doesnt match.. imagination fills gap... we find NPC and then somehow the quest turns into an extermination... a rescue mission.. kill the boss.... erm... a lot of this we are used to already :P But the point would be that we can not even predict what we are suppose to do from beginning to end.. so people aren't exploiting resets because they know it isn't the objective they are after. The first objective could be to figure out the objective... that would force people to invest enough they don't cop out.. it isn't worth it at that point. Easy fixes for things like that. This can be a lot of fun. Even the simple version. Old school!

[Wonedream]

I think I like the Old School idea most. It's just so... Old School!


"Welcome to the Old School! I am the dean of this University, my name is Thearasix. I have developed a training ground, I developed it to be deadly and to be difficult. The traps in this place will kill you. The secrets will hide from you. The monsters will ambush and devour you. The tricks will hinder you. And things will change in ways you can never pre determine to make sure your training is thorough. Some of the things I put within have wills and minds of their own, and now it may even be a bit of a problem. I could stop it, but what great opportunity for heroes to train! The Old School University has a lot to offer, you can find tombs down there sometimes, it is rare, but know it can happen. This is a university after all. You can find training papers and if you return them my excellent staff will train you unique feats or how to improve something with an education bonus. We hope to prepare you for the worst so you come out the best. Oh, and the reaper has hijacked some of the training grounds... I can't promise you won't see em down there. One last thing... your maps will magically erase themselves, and I used powerful magic to prevent all mapping methods, and now it can not be undone."

[Gramh_the_Bard]

Please stop flooding the forum with your bad idea. Thanks in advance.

[Wonedream]

Please stop flooding the forum with your bad idea. Thanks in advance.

That is a matter of opinion. No thanks, I will continue to explore these ideas. But I will not flood the place, I added this thread separate from the other for reasons I explained.

And please stop telling people what to do and putting down their ideas. Thanks in advance.

[Loromir]

Please stop flooding the forum with your bad idea. Thanks in advance.

I think its a good idea. But SSG would never implement anything like this.

[Wonedream]

I think its a good idea. But SSG would never implement anything like this.

Why not?

Are they not smart enough?

Are they worried we might have fun?

Are they unable to figure out a way to keep it from getting into the entangle codes from the past?

Do they hate surprises?

Are they obsessed with seeing how much they can get us to do the same thing over and over?

Do they completely and utterly ignore the players, the forums, and pretty much everything?

Are they afraid it would be too difficult and time consuming because they don't want to try something new?

Budget and money? How hard would it be to do a quick job version and make us happy? Those who don't like it.. don't go in and see if you can survive the unknown and stick to your hamster wheels! For those who want a break from the hamster wheels.. won't this add a lot of incentive to keep us going longer and stronger? So money... well Ill put my money this way!


I suppose any of these would be reasons they wouldn't do it. But I will put my faith in them, that none of these describe them at all. And that it could happen, and that maybe even now they are thinking about it and how it would be if they played it. It helps to put yourself in there in a advance a bit with the mind to help pan out more what your aiming for then to just build it with no conception first.


Maybe it will happen soon too. I live in a world of possibilities, it may be improbable but I don't know for sure, so I will assume it is possible :P

[AzB]

Please stop flooding the forum with your bad idea. Thanks in advance.

I haven't read through his wall of text yet to see if I think it's a good idea or not. But here's an idea for you; if you think someone has a bad idea, there are two ways to respond to it.

1. Go on with you life
2. Express why you don't like the idea and join in on the discussion.

The internet is full of absolutely worthless criticisms along the lines of "that sucks". If you don't want to go into detail, at least give a 2 or 3 sentence overview as to *why* it sucks. Otherwise, you're contributing nothing, which ironically is what you are accusing the OP of doing.

[levy1964]

Please stop flooding the forum with your bad idea. Thanks in advance.

whos gives u?....shut up! reading his weird idea's are better fun, then playing unplayable!

[Gramh_the_Bard]

whos gives u?....shut up! reading his weird idea's are better fun, then playing unplayable!

i give me, and that's all that matters. the idea is dumb, and i'm glad you're entertained by them but i say it's better to play the game as it is than some pipe dream random dungeon system that would take too much time and resources to make worthwhile.

[Annex]

Over the years, many players have suggested a DDO Random Dungeon Generator, myself included. I am sure the game developers working on DDO have extensive knowledge of such things as part of their training and do not require game programming lessons. Unfortunately, it seems rather obvious the DDO game engine was not designed for such things. A high degree of randomization would probably crush the poor DDO servers and the company obviously lacks the budget for extensive game engine rebuilds.

Given those constraints, I think the Tower of Frost offers a more realistic template for how a random dungeon could work in DDO. Create 20 dungeon squares like the levels in the Tower of Frost, all appearing on a single map. Put doors or teleport tiles in two corners or each square. Randomize how the doors and teleport squares connect to one another. In each square, randomize some traps, some monsters, and so forth, using the tools already included in the current game engine.

The 20 squares in this first dungeon could use sewer art resources. Call it Random Dungeon 1. Upon completing Random Dungeon 1, include an entrance to Random Dungeon 2, a la the way the Depths chain works in House Deneith. Random Dungeon 2, a new dungeon as far as the game engine is concerned, once again includes 20 squares, this time using Cave art assets. Create 10 dungeons in this manner, 200 total squares, 10 art asset types, chain them together, and call it a Random Dungeon.

I know this is much, much less ambitious than what the original poster (or myself) wants, but I am pretty sure the game engine could actually accommodate what I describe right now.

[FAQ]

Wall of text, must ... roll... a ... 20... arggg.

Anyway, I'm not a big fan of randgen dungeons (or randgen loot for that matter). I enjoy the most of the "handcrafted" dungeons we have

[Wonedream]

Wall of text, must ... roll... a ... 20... arggg.

Anyway, I'm not a big fan of randgen dungeons (or randgen loot for that matter). I enjoy the most of the "handcrafted" dungeons we have

Im not a big fan of repeating the same thing over and over. Nor am I a big fan of knowing where everything is. Predictable adventures are not really adventures.

[walkin_dude]

If I want to play random dungeon crawl, there are a lot of options already:

Powder
Nethack
Angband (or one of its many variants)
Dwarf Fortress
many more...

There are page upon pages of these games. I listed some that I think are some of the better ones.

[spyyder976]

I also would love a random dungeon quest area that we could do whenever we wanted to escape the tediousness of doing the same quests over and over again with different toons. Neverwinter Nights had a premium quest pack of Infinite Dungeons that was completely randomized and awesome, which I bought and played a lot, but my computer with it on it died, and you can no longer download it, even though you paid for it. And you do know that they're looking to hire another game designer/developer don't you? Maybe you should apply and move there and build this for us OP!

[Avocado]

My issue with tr ing is the power gap it has created. They could easily make end game by updating the already level 30 content. Making the gear viable. The devs shot themselves in the foot by invalidating all there old loot. Why is slavers level 28 which can give 27 spell crit and 185 sp and t3 thunderforged is 28 and gives 22 crit and 150 sp. That isn't vertical progression. That is just dumb. Thunderforged is all but useless. If they could stop invalidating the previous updates loot then I will return to the game. There is no point in farming for stuff if in 3 months it's worthless.

[Uska]

Please stop flooding the forum with your bad idea. Thanks in advance.

He has a lot of bad ideas but this one of the better ones I am just not sure it's feasible or not

Also if you don't like his ideas don't read them or even put him on ignore

[Memnir]

[AzB]

I think I like the Old School idea most. It's just so... Old School!


"Welcome to the Old School! I am the dean of this University, my name is Thearasix. I have developed a training ground, I developed it to be deadly and to be difficult. The traps in this place will kill you. The secrets will hide from you. The monsters will ambush and devour you. The tricks will hinder you. And things will change in ways you can never pre determine to make sure your training is thorough. Some of the things I put within have wills and minds of their own, and now it may even be a bit of a problem. I could stop it, but what great opportunity for heroes to train! The Old School University has a lot to offer, you can find tombs down there sometimes, it is rare, but know it can happen. This is a university after all. You can find training papers and if you return them my excellent staff will train you unique feats or how to improve something with an education bonus. We hope to prepare you for the worst so you come out the best. Oh, and the reaper has hijacked some of the training grounds... I can't promise you won't see em down there. One last thing... your maps will magically erase themselves, and I used powerful magic to prevent all mapping methods, and now it can not be undone."

This sounds like a fun dungeon. I wouldn't want them all to be like this, but one would be great.

And if it's going to have any sort of unique bonus for completion, it should be essentially impossible.

[Suggestion]

I would love to see random dungeons. One problem with the game right now is that I've run every quest (except the 3 new ones) a lot and I would love something that isn't too predictable. Something where you have an idea of the level (based on the level selected when you enter) and the size (also selected when you enter) but you have no idea where the end goals are located or exactly what you will encounter is a great idea.