A sneak peek at Update 24’s dungeons … and beyond

[Enderoc]

Carrion Crawlers that carry undead plagues with rot monsters (ghoulish rust monsters that decay flesh) that spit green slime which can sicken....Kobolds behind siege engine traps like giant mechanical crossbows in reclaiming a fortress stronghold. Underwater adventures with things like Mermen and Eyes of the Deep in underwater submerged tunnels. Arcane artificer as an enhancement tree or even a caster class that can pump energy into energy cells that can be freely moved or placed in augment slots and charged accordingly (maybe instead allow them to be crafted in devices and then infused with arcane powers).

I like the synergy boss quests...a Giant Medusa that had a stone elemental beholder as her Guardian familiar set before her throne set in an arena with spectators all turned to stone would be pretty epic. Just brainstorming here while waiting for time to pass.

[Cetus]

Thing is when I feel it is necessary to voice my opinion to bring a counter point to your unending input, so the devs do not forget your not the only one playing this game, I wouldn't be able to if you were blocked, please feel free to follow your own advice though.

I'm still not sure what it is what were disagreeing on here...

You DONT want level 30+ content?

[SilkofDrasnia]

I'm still not sure what it is what were disagreeing on here...

You DONT want level 30+ content?

No I don't mind so much if they add such content, my point was even though I do not mind and enjoy endgame I also enjoy lower level content and do not think it is junk. New content is new content and is good for the game regardless of what level it is, the only thing that changes is whether it is something we personally want or not.

My point is I know other endgame players like myself that like mid/low level content and that you do not speak for all of us, we are not all so gung ho for new high level content until Turbine gets done with other more pressing things like finishing the class pass and maybe even raising the cap to 30.

There has been entirely too much change in a short amount of time both in mechanics and gear, I think they should let some of the dust settle and then when they are done stirring it up they can then work on endgame stuff and have it done properly rather than half arsing it because other changes are not done implemented yet.

Some people play endgame get the loot, get bored leave and then complain/demand new content while others just find other content to enjoy when tired of the same endgame like etr/tr etc.

There is no rush for any of this, the rushing is what makes you bored in the first place, the same way that people that scream for nerfs because of one or two maybe OP builds for the sake of challenge yet they are running on triple completionist with all ideal endgame gear from last months new content on the new fotm build and sucking down store pots like no there was no tomorrow.

[Cetus]

No I don't mind so much if they add such content, my point was even though I do not mind and enjoy endgame I also enjoy lower level content and do not think it is junk. New content is new content and is good for the game regardless of what level it is, the only thing that changes is whether it is something we personally want or not.

My point is I know other endgame players like myself that like mid/low level content and that you do not speak for all of us, we are not all so gung ho for new high level content until Turbine gets done with other more pressing things like finishing the class pass and maybe even raising the cap to 30.

There has been entirely too much change in a short amount of time both in mechanics and gear, I think they should let some of the dust settle and then when they are done stirring it up they can then work on endgame stuff and have it done properly rather than half arsing it because other changes are not done implemented yet.

Some people play endgame get the loot, get bored leave and then complain/demand new content while other just find other content to enjoy when tired of the same endgame like etr/tr etc.

There is no rush for any of this, the rushing is what makes you bored in the first place, the same way that people that scream for nerfs because of one or two maybe OP builds for the sake of challenge yet they are running on triple completionist with all ideal endgame gear from last months new content on the new fotm build and sucking down store pots like no there was no tomorrow.

How many non-endgame players, who are otherwise content with mid-level packs such as yourself, enjoyed the epic treatment of orchard?

Did you enjoy it?

[SilkofDrasnia]

How many non-endgame players, who are otherwise content with mid-level packs such as yourself, enjoyed the epic treatment of orchard?

Did you enjoy it?

Think maybe you missed the point I am not a non endgame player, I am a endgame player that likes to play ALL of the game not just a small portion of it and guess what? I enjoy all of the various leveled content at some point or other depending on what phase/mood of my playing I am on.

Anyways I think I have gone OT far enough and have no wish to derail this thread further.

[dredre9987]

Two wishes please implement them somehow.

1.Fragarach, Scather

2. Elmo

[MangLord]

For me, it feels like all the latest updates have been giving more attention to unappreciated/disliked quests in an effort to get people playing them. I thought 3Barrel was a big success, because the dungeons were familiar, but tweaked a bit and new things added to give them a slightly different experience from the heroic versions. Personally, I'm not a fan of epic Orchard. A couple of the quests are highly annoying, namely Inferno and Fleshmakers (who likes air elementals? they're only slightly behind FR shadows for sheer annoyance factor), and the named item droprate is hideous. Remember that most longtime players have farmed the pants off these quests for sigil pieces long before we had to farm them again for new junk.

The reason I mention annoying monsters is because the Madness quests, while some may like them, were extra heavy on beholders, and as far as debuffing, level draining annoyance goes, they top the list of enemies I'd rather avoid. Thus, I tend to avoid all the Madness quests. All the chains were pretty heavy on requiring DR breaking weapons, which was also somewhat irritating, but the beholders made me want to scream sometimes. If you can manage to avoid the heavy handed use of beholders and the subsequent need for multiple pale lavender ioun stones just so you don't have to rebuff yourself every 2 seconds, then you might have something that I'd like to play. I've always hated those quests for that fact alone. I can't say I'm super thrilled about more of those. Please don't make us build a bed airship or other similarly goofy tasks the start to feel like drudgery after the third wave of beds all succumb to another endless wave of enemies.

I'm not very familiar with the original Temple of Elemental Evil module, but I was very happy with Haunted Halls. Personally, I still love to do EN runs with all the optionals for something easier and super-fun at the same time. I really look forward to another huge, immersive quest in the future. Breaking the regular and extended contents into two different level ranges would be really nice. Heroic could use some more content at level 9-11. Possibly doing a heroic CR9 regular and heroic CR11 extended, with an epic CR23 regular and CR26 extended? There is a lot of lower level epic content, but we could really use something new to spruce up that level range for ETRing.

I'm incredibly sick of Shadar-kai chain whipping stuff and the Netherese storyline. I think most players will be fine if we never hear about it again. Maybe it's just because Wheloon and Stormhorns pay decent XP, so I tend to run those a lot. I hate shadar-kai assassins and shadows so much now. I feel like the Howler quill damage was Turbine's subtle way of driving us crazy over a long period of time.

Also, can we please fight more living enemies at end game that aren't spellcasters or don't come in the form of gigantic, lag-inducing mobs? If I'm not in wheloon or stormhorns, I feel like all I'm ever fighting are undead, more undead, constructs, a couple elementals and the odd enemy that we can score critical hits on who is usually a spellcaster. Personally, I just want a change of pace. Rust monsters, oozes (yes, they're crit resistant but still classic and interesting) or even a new enemy like an Otyugh or Basilisk? Both would present interesting challenges. Could you imagine a Basilisk boss fight where Stone to Flesh becomes a must have spell? It would be nice to possibly rework an older enemy to challenge epic players, rather than throwing more undead at us over and over.

Edit: That came off really complaint heavy, but I'm just not looking forward to beholders or Xoriat at all. I was imagining some new enemies and a fresh setting in Anauroch rather than more of the strange, goofy and generally annoying Madness chain.

[Qhualor]

i read the cliff notes version of Temple of Elemental Evil and there was mention of gnomes having a big role.

discuss

[jalont]

For me, it feels like all the latest updates have been giving more attention to unappreciated/disliked quests in an effort to get people playing them. I thought 3Barrel was a big success, because the dungeons were familiar, but tweaked a bit and new things added to give them a slightly different experience from the heroic versions. Personally, I'm not a fan of epic Orchard. A couple of the quests are highly annoying, namely Inferno and Fleshmakers (who likes air elementals? they're only slightly behind FR shadows for sheer annoyance factor), and the named item droprate is hideous. Remember that most longtime players have farmed the pants off these quests for sigil pieces long before we had to farm them again for new junk.

The reason I mention annoying monsters is because the Madness quests, while some may like them, were extra heavy on beholders, and as far as debuffing, level draining annoyance goes, they top the list of enemies I'd rather avoid. Thus, I tend to avoid all the Madness quests. All the chains were pretty heavy on requiring DR breaking weapons, which was also somewhat irritating, but the beholders made me want to scream sometimes. If you can manage to avoid the heavy handed use of beholders and the subsequent need for multiple pale lavender ioun stones just so you don't have to rebuff yourself every 2 seconds, then you might have something that I'd like to play. I've always hated those quests for that fact alone. I can't say I'm super thrilled about more of those. Please don't make us build a bed airship or other similarly goofy tasks the start to feel like drudgery after the third wave of beds all succumb to another endless wave of enemies.

I'm not very familiar with the original Temple of Elemental Evil module, but I was very happy with Haunted Halls. Personally, I still love to do EN runs with all the optionals for something easier and super-fun at the same time. I really look forward to another huge, immersive quest in the future. Breaking the regular and extended contents into two different level ranges would be really nice. Heroic could use some more content at level 9-11. Possibly doing a heroic CR9 regular and heroic CR11 extended, with an epic CR23 regular and CR26 extended?

I'm incredibly sick of Shadar-kai chain whipping stuff and the Netherese storyline. I think most players will be fine if we never hear about it again. Maybe it's just because Wheloon and Stormhorns pay decent XP, so I tend to run those a lot. I hate shadar-kai assassins and shadows so much now.

Also, can we please fight more living enemies at end game that aren't spellcasters? If I'm not in wheloon or stormhorns, I feel like all I'm ever fighting are undead, more undead, constructs, a couple elementals and the odd enemy that we can score critical hits on who is usually a spellcaster. Personally, I just want a change of pace. Rust monsters, oozes (yes, they're crit resistant but still classic and interesting) or even a new enemy like an Otyugh or Basilisk? Both would present interesting challenges. Could you imagine a Basilisk boss fight where Stone to Flesh becomes a must have spell? It would be nice to possibly rework an older enemy to challenge epic players, rather than throwing more undead at us over and over.

You just mentioned all the reasons why casuals will not like the update, but those of us that like challenge need to have a bone thrown to us after the last few updates that transformed the game and completely geared it to casual players. Yes, if done right, the next update might have an inkling of challenge. Some of us are happy about that.

[Cetus]

Think maybe you missed the point I am not a non endgame player, I am a endgame player that likes to play ALL of the game not just a small portion of it and guess what? I enjoy all of the various leveled content at some point or other depending on what phase/mood of my playing I am on.

Anyways I think I have gone OT far enough and have no wish to derail this thread further.

Even though you evaded my question, saying that you enjoy **ALL** (you said it) the content means that it is possible for turbine to synthesize content that we can BOTH enjoy.

Since, CR30+ stuff fits under your **ALL** umbrella, we can both be happy.

What's the problem here?

[SilkofDrasnia]

Even though you evaded my question, saying that you enjoy **ALL** (you said it) the content means that it is possible for turbine to synthesize content that we can BOTH enjoy.

Since, CR30+ stuff fits under your **ALL** umbrella, we can both be happy.

What's the problem here?

The only problem is you not liking that I do not agree with you. IF they make lvl 30 content I will enjoy it if they do not I will still enjoy the lower level content. The problem is you would like to twist that to mean I should not like them to add lower level content simply to make you happy because insert xyz excuse to justify your preference.

My original post where I quoted you was just me backing some others in this thread by saying just cause you don't like lower level content it is not "junk" but alas because you, an endgame player, decided endgame players should want and prefer lvl 30 quest over lower level one OH WELL now we have a problem and you will spend xx+ post to explain to me why my "opinion" and preferences are wrong because hey! Cetus says so!

Comes down to this you want to pew pew pew about endgame constantly go for it that is fine and is your opinion but don't get all weepy or hurt cause some others like myself then quote you and claim we as endgame players do not give a fig if there is no lvl 30 content in the next batch of new stuff and pew pew pew about it.

I will say it again I love endgame but I do not give a rats behind if there is no lvl 30 content in this new update, and guess what?

I do not care if that makes you sad.

Comes down to this, new content doesn't have to be aimed at you specifically or even myself no matter how inflated our opinions of ourselves may be. If that makes you so upset and unhappy well.... don't let the door hit you in the arse on the way out.

I am not a fan of the xoriat stuff that is coming but guess what? That is just tough luck for me cause I am sure someone out there will enjoy it. I mentioned I was not a fan of it then moved on instead of weeping constantly about it.

Now run along and go pewpewpew someone else for awhile or go pewpewpew some more about endgame, I am sure there are a few people that do not know your opinion about it yet.

[IronClan]

No it's not - E-3BC is Base Lvl 25 {27 on EE!}

So besides a gimmick portable temporary rez shrine what loot in e3BC do you consider end game? +8 stat items? What challenges are there for geared level 28s? I guess if you squint at it, the Iron Mitts are "end game" simply by virtue of being possibly better than PDK Gauntlets for your source of 30 hamp... otherwise they are extremely meh... There's a reason why there are more eGH LFM's than e3BC a couple reasons, but one of them is that they made the strategic mistake of placing an unpopular pack into mid epic levels where no one really gives a squat about it (still).

End game is very thin, there's very little to do... end game is where everyone who still likes to play DDO but has done their fill of the usual TR'ing stuff ends up. People who claim end game isn't important are people who haven't yet reached the point where they haven't got much to do but still enjoy running with friends and playing the game, but need some excuses to keep playing.

Why Progress and TR and ETR, to improve your character if there's nothing to do with an improved character? You all will ask this question one day... and if you still enjoy DDO your answer will be "bring on end game" if you're bored of DDO you'll find something else to do, and wont care a lick that DDO has the fatest "mid epic game".

An outragous mid epic "scene" is not what this game needs and it's continually amazing just how little the Developers seem to understand that... They can look at metrics for e3BC and somehow not come to the conclussion that it was a big fat waste of development time... So they're going to make the same mistake again.

The people taking a short term view of this (saying mid epic content is wonderful) are just shooting themselves and end game focused players in the foot. You'll be here eventually and the derth of end game content that you helped foster will be your problem as well! If you WONT be here eventually then you obviously don't enjoy DDO very much and your opinion is not important.

I just specced a toon that NEEDS Mythic Emerald Gaze, I built him specifically to need that item... (specifically I chose Know the Angels instead of Divine Might so I could get use out of +4 Insightful STR, as that toons ideal gear setup, and hey it's nice that this also left me with a luxurious number of skill points on a Dwarven Paladin and a better number in INT than I could have gotten in CHA due to Dwarf starting with 6 CHA)

Why did I do that? Same reason I made a eSoS build that (see sig) is after those pieces... so I'd have an excuse to keep playing a game I enjoy. basically I've reached the point where I'm inventing my own hamster wheels, rather than moving on. Considering how freely I spend on DDO it's definitely in Turbines best interest to give me more things like eSoS and Mythic items to seek after... They wont do it with +8 stat items and mid epic quest challenges that I will walk all over on my 28th level characters.

[Cetus]

The only problem is you not liking that I do not agree with you. IF they make lvl 30 content I will enjoy it if they do not I will still enjoy the lower level content. The problem is you would like to twist that to mean I should not like them to add lower level content simply to make you happy because insert xyz excuse to justify your preference.

My original post where I quoted you was just me backing some others in this thread by saying just cause you don't like lower level content it is not "junk" but alas because you, an endgame player, decided endgame players should want and prefer lvl 30 quest over lower level one OH WELL now we have a problem and you will spend xx+ post to explain to me why my "opinion" and preferences are wrong because hey! Cetus says so!

Comes down to this you want to pew pew pew about endgame constantly go for it that is fine and is your opinion but don't get all weepy or hurt cause some others like myself then quote you and claim we as endgame players do not give a fig if there is no lvl 30 content in the next batch of new stuff and pew pew pew about it.

I will say it again I love endgame but I do not give a rats behind if there is no lvl 30 content in this new update, and guess what?

I do not care if that makes you sad.

Comes down to this, new content doesn't have to be aimed at you specifically or even myself no matter how inflated our opinions of ourselves may be. If that makes you so upset and unhappy well.... don't let the door hit you in the arse on the way out.

I am not a fan of the xoriat stuff that is coming but guess what? That is just tough luck for me cause I am sure someone out there will enjoy it. I mentioned I was not a fan of it then moved on instead of weeping constantly about it.

Now run along and go pewpewpew someone else for awhile or go pewpewpew some more about endgame, I am sure there are a few people that do not know your opinion about it yet.

You are really reading into my posts. Yes, they are junk. But, guess what? That is a subjective statement because the only person I ever speak for is --myself--.

I don't know where you get the impression that I'm speaking for you, but I'm disabusing you of that right now. I'm speaking for me. And, in our exchange, we have concluded that CR30+ content would make both of us happy, instead of just YOU with CR26 stuff.

[Ayseifn]

Sev, I am very surprised at the decision to launch more low level (CR26) content. I could have sworn that you guys were done with that phase, and would from now on churn out endgame stuff.

What happened? This is going backwards.

Agreed, if there's a level 30 version of this ready to release when the cap goes up that's cool but if it's just another group of quests to offer options for TRs that sucks. The loot is pretty ordinary too, mostly just the same mutations shuffled around to help people outfit non end game toons with non end game gear.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

End game is very thin, there's very little to do...

I certainly agree with this. Clearly they need to add some meat to end game... and it appears they are doing this. Just the mere mention of the words "Temple of Elemental Evil" will stir emotion and attention. Its a HUGE score and a wonderful sign Turbine has plenty of future left... All the doom speculation, which understandably occurred after 3 huge layoffs in just over a year, is dead as a doornail now (with the sole exception that the reality is WB can pull the plug at any time, an unsettling but unavoidable reality in the Corporate world).

With all the attention those four words generate, this is Turbine's time to light up the gaming world. "Why build a Chevy when we can build a Rolls" should be the attitude from the devs... and for once in a very long time, I saw a glimpse of that kind of excitement in the announcement... even though it was hiding in the post promoting U24, which is fine for now.

If ToEE can fill out/solidify the end game scene for 3-6 months, and add excitement at 7-11 heroic, that would be a tremendous benefit to much of the playerbase and would captivate new blood in the gaming world. Turbine needs to get out on the PR bus soon, and generate excitement.

We need challenge. But its not just for end gamers or long time players, because that demographic is getting smaller and smaller. We need it for the guild scene in general. Ive said it for many years... guilds are the life-blood, the foundation of DDO. When guild scene crumbles, down will go DDO. Guilds, and not just "Top 10" guilds, need challenge. This is why I say dont only look at end game, and also why I think its brilliant that Turbine just might be filling two voids with ToEE...

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

One last thing about "end game"... Turbine has done a good job making end game reachable and enjoyable for many that traditionally would not reach, none the less excel at. Endgame is not exclusive anymore to "that type of player". And there's nothing wrong with that. In fact that's great for the game because it gives many more people something to shoot/strive for. But now that accessibility into the end game is achievable... now there needs to be more meat on the bone. I'm hoping that ToEE gives the replay value that the Shroud provided to the playerbase all these years. I would also like to see a new notch above elite introduced at some point, that could challenge long time gamers.

[EllisDee37]

To clarify, right now, what is endgame? We've got three endgame raids (MoD and both thunderholme), right? Are there any endgame quests? Necro4, maybe, but is there any reason to run them on EE? If not, is that really endgame? Is WGU considered endgame?

[Uska]

i read the cliff notes version of Temple of Elemental Evil and there was mention of gnomes having a big role.

discuss

Now its been many years since I played the original module I don't really recall gnomes having any role in the module much less a big role

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

To clarify, right now, what is endgame? We've got three endgame raids (MoD and both thunderholme), right? Are there any endgame quests? Necro4, maybe, but is there any reason to run them on EE? If not, is that really endgame? Is WGU considered endgame?

Yep exactly my point. Its a moving target. This game will NEVER have an end game like Cetus wants. Its just isnt that kind of game and never will be. So...

To me, and this is obviously very unscientific, end game is the top 10% of the content, give a take a few points in either direction. It includes all the toughest content in the game. Most importantly its always been a moving target.

The real test or challenge for Turbine now is that if 30 is the max level we'll see, then pressure will be on them to provide a stationary end game, which will be hard for Turbine to achieve... because you have players like Cetus who will always be crying for more challenge when "end game" is wysiwyg.

End game needs to encompass more than just 1 or 2 quests or raids. And this is where I think the large majority of us agree. To the OPs topic at hand, I'm hoping ToEE, in whatever shape or form it takes, is very very re-playable.

[Uska]

Even though you evaded my question, saying that you enjoy **ALL** (you said it) the content means that it is possible for turbine to synthesize content that we can BOTH enjoy.

Since, CR30+ stuff fits under your **ALL** umbrella, we can both be happy.

What's the problem here?

UMm that not all players like epic at all I avoid it like a plague which to me epic level is to both pnp and ddo. I like new content to play in my favored range and while I don't like epic play I don't gnash my teeth and say it shouldn't be made so I ask you to do the same for content in my favored range.