We need a tiered loot system

[Gljosh]

They could have done, chance for the epic items to drop so anyone can look for the gear they want but then people who want to grind and get the best gear have to collect the scroll/seal/shard to make the epic item a mythic

I wasnt really around back in those days, i was still new to the game and wasnt til the first xpac when id run alot of epics so i didnt go through what alot of people did with grinding to craft the epic gear they wanted, with that said, even now every time i craft an epic item it feels like an accomplishment

When I made my Epic Chimera's Crown (slotted with Master's Gift and a SP Gem) and Epic Red Dragon Armor (slotted with Vitality and PRR) it felt great. someday before the servers close I would love to have my Epic Charged Gauntlet and Epic Wolf Whistle (I have 3 druid past lives). Too bad most of that gear is ridiculously weak now.

[Munkenmo]

Consider that DDO is just one step up from Maintenance mode... and that Dev Time is at premium... So yes it all boil down to what gets done in a given time frame :
- Tri-Tiered items
- New Quests ( or epiced old )
- New Loot
- Enhancement Trees
- New Race
- New Class
- Revamp of old Adventure Area

You can only choose 3 from the list.... make your choice.

I'm well aware how few devs there are left, the quality of the game is pretty indicative of the resources now being invested in it.

This game is very obviously in a state of flux, and if it wants to end up a successful maintenance mode it needs to get their loot and quests sorted out. There's no point in churning out content that's too easy to beat, has items too easy to obtain and xp that makes them not worth repeating. The loot design has been abysmal since GH, the devs have stopped catering to niches or working on obvious alternates and have just ramped power creep.

The melee power / ranged power / magical protection changes are interesting, and potentially could give the devs room to make much more incremental increases in item power again. In the meantime though, I can maintain my hiatus knowing that anything I grind out between now and level 30 is going to be completely pointless.

In the mean time making tri-tiered items using systems that have already been implemented should take next to no time at all, most likely tri-tiers means that instead of working slowly one day till the end of their shift said dev would work reasonably till the end of their shift, the time allocated & spent coding items likely wouldn't change, just the developers efficiency during that period.

I'll concede that making an upgrade path like the one I suggested earlier would take longer since the system has to be made. If one quest is the price to pay for all the old and yet to come tri-tiered loot being replaced with upgradeable versions, then I'll gladly see that quest dissappear. Ultimately though, none of this matters, the games shedding players atm, without robust loot systems that aren't susceptible to "workarounds" and a solid platform of quests at level 30 DDO will continue to shed players.

[MeliCat]

Another one here who prefers tiered loot - with the proviso that the hard and elite versions are only a minor increase in power from the base item.

I like that normal is much easier to get and can be used as a stop gap while it might be a while before you get the elite version.

Better than > 100 runs trying to get a single very rare item that you need to complete your gear set up.

[11001]

Not signed, tiered loot will only cause more conflicts between high end players and the usual folk (who are not very well geared to begin with).

[Eth]

They could have done, chance for the epic items to drop so anyone can look for the gear they want but then people who want to grind and get the best gear have to collect the scroll/seal/shard to make the epic item a mythic

Love this idea.

I wasnt really around back in those days, i was still new to the game and wasnt til the first xpac when id run alot of epics so i didnt go through what alot of people did with grinding to craft the epic gear they wanted, with that said, even now every time i craft an epic item it feels like an accomplishment

It's quite simple. The item you want had 4 parts, which mostly all where rare and dependant on the item, required you to run different quests. The good thing about it was, that you made some progress. Get a scroll here, get a seal there. Run stuff daily and eventually you got all the things together.

The only thing that was broken and why people remember it as a bad system, was the fact that the balance between droprates of shards, seals and scrolls was completely off depending on the pack, but that can be adjusted.

And yes, dragging the 4 items into the epic altar and finally crafting the item always felt great.

[maddong]

I agree that tiered loot is good.

[FAQ]

Honestly, imo the best was how FoT was handled. You could run EE for chance at special named augment, get loot fully upgraded or you could run it at a lower difficulty and spend coms to upgrade your loot. Really gave everyone something to strive for.

I must agree with this ^.

But speaking of loot, I loathe BTCoE loot. I would much rather see unbound or BTA loot.

Edit: Oh, I really hated tiered loot because of the increase in min level. The same reason I really dislike Alchemical crafting and am not crazy about Thunderforged either. Greensteel is perfect for me: upgrade tiers, maintain min level

[Dilbon]

Tiered loot was a horrible idea and I'm glad it's gone.

[11001]

Tiered loot was a horrible idea and I'm glad it's gone.

This.

[Impaqt]

Upgradeable Tiered loot is a good thing.

Tiered loot for the sake of giving elitists something to brag about is pointless.

Getting rid of tiered loot, the way it was implemented, was a good thing.

people LOVE upgrading stuff. It gives items longevity and gives folks a sense of progression.

[Cetus]

Tiered loot was a horrible idea and I'm glad it's gone.

Then you should be glad that the months of development time spent on manufacturing new content is thrown to the wayside in a week or two because you can easily get all the reward out of the content within that timeframe.

You should also be glad that this game has no economy.

You should also be glad that you have zero incentive to run harder content.

Be content with mediocrity, with some vanilla character running normal mode and enjoying the "story". MMO's tend to have a central pathway in character advancement, building, and progression, to not want to improve yourself in an MMO is asinine to me.


I don't understand how players playing an MMO are content with NOT wanting more for their characters. How can people be content with just playing normal, and never pushing the envelope to try hard, or elite? How can finally doing hard and elite not yield reward for ones efforts? Why does the existence of EE exclusive gear automatically make people think that this "shuts" people out from getting the best gear? It doesn't shut you out. You can go in any time and do it - it is supposed to be difficult, if you win then you get something for it.

[Levonestral]

I believe it's time for Turbine to seriously consider an "Epic Crafting" system...

Basically this would consist of "ingredients" that can be collected from every single epic raid/quest in the game. Or perhaps make use of what they have now and reduce the collections nightmare we have now and put them around in more places. The higher level of the raid/quest the higher number of those ingredients you can collect. (N/H/E have higher values within the raids/quests). You could also consider "special" EE-only ingredients for those who want higher value from EE.

Then, stop all this nonsense of forcing us to have to rebuild all our gear sets every time you decide to introduce new content. Instead, just simply introduce a new "effect" for the crafting.

Turbine can continue to provide raid loot, quest loot etc but these would be more "interim" items than permanent while you work toward your ultimate (and self controlled) goals !

Here's how I think it should work: (yes, I've stolen the entire concept from Shroud, but want to apply it to epic as a whole)

- Let us create a "base item" using any various amounts of these ingredients.
- Each item (helmet, belt, weapon etc) would have a limit on how many "points" you can spend on it to maintain a certain level. For example, level: 24 points.
- Let us place anything we want on that item that would fall within that "point limit". (think combine current crafting with shroud and beyond).
- Each of those effects would have a point value assigned, forcing you to choose what you want, but still not be able to put too much on at once.
- This could be anything from an actual effect to augment slot options.

This way you can make any level item you want using any of the available options, only limited by the points themselves. Why restrict us with gear, let us be just as creative with gear as we are with builds !

At any point in time should we decide we wanted to replace something (new gear items, something cool to augment etc) we don't have to destroy our previous work, instead give us a "rebuild" option that lets us replace pieces as we desire without having to start over (most people I know hate starting over on long term projects due to game/gear changes). Perhaps limit this to a looted random item so people can't do it too often...once again very similar to what they did in shroud.

With all raids/quests dropping these ingredients, it allows everyone to bring everything back into the "end game" scope because potentially they can all give you something to work with. Yes, people will likely stick with higher level content, but they can also continue their efforts while running ETR's on lower content. (thus the train never stops!)

Honestly, I hear a lot of complaints from people who just can't "keep up" with all the changes. New loot is great, but constantly making previous (last update previous!) loot worthless on each Update is starting to get really, really old.

Flame away, agree, alter or ignore

[Zoda]

Upgradeable Tiered loot is a good thing.

Tiered loot for the sake of giving elitists something to brag about is pointless.

Getting rid of tiered loot, the way it was implemented, was a good thing.

people LOVE upgrading stuff. It gives items longevity and gives folks a sense of progression.

Brag to who? We have our own little society of jerks and if you are a decent person, we won't accept you anyway, and we can't brag with e/e loot to each other because we all have it. And in caase if we do have something to brag about that usually inspires our fellow memebers. (irony intended)

Get real. Reward should come for an effort not for being potato at the right place.

Then you should be glad that the months of development time spent on manufacturing new content is thrown to the wayside in a week or two because you can easily get all the reward out of the content within that timeframe.

You should also be glad that this game has no economy.

You should also be glad that you have zero incentive to run harder content.

Be content with mediocrity, with some vanilla character running normal mode and enjoying the "story". MMO's tend to have a central pathway in character advancement, building, and progression, to not want to improve yourself in an MMO is asinine to me.


I don't understand how players playing an MMO are content with NOT wanting more for their characters. How can people be content with just playing normal, and never pushing the envelope to try hard, or elite? How can finally doing hard and elite not yield reward for ones efforts? Why does the existence of EE exclusive gear automatically make people think that this "shuts" people out from getting the best gear? It doesn't shut you out. You can go in any time and do it - it is supposed to be difficult, if you win then you get something for it.

Can't agree more.

If someone wants to play a game for story and smelling pretty little digital flowers an MMO is the wrong place for him/her. I suggest the Icewind Dale and Baldur's Gate series for that, best evah.

[slarden]

Then you should be glad that the months of development time spent on manufacturing new content is thrown to the wayside in a week or two because you can easily get all the reward out of the content within that timeframe.

You should also be glad that this game has no economy.

You should also be glad that you have zero incentive to run harder content.

Be content with mediocrity, with some vanilla character running normal mode and enjoying the "story". MMO's tend to have a central pathway in character advancement, building, and progression, to not want to improve yourself in an MMO is asinine to me.


I don't understand how players playing an MMO are content with NOT wanting more for their characters. How can people be content with just playing normal, and never pushing the envelope to try hard, or elite? How can finally doing hard and elite not yield reward for ones efforts? Why does the existence of EE exclusive gear automatically make people think that this "shuts" people out from getting the best gear? It doesn't shut you out. You can go in any time and do it - it is supposed to be difficult, if you win then you get something for it.

You and others make many assumptions about people that are opposed to exclusive tiered loot. Most of us are running the content on EE and don't like tiered loot because we think it has a negative impact on the game overall.

People want to progress and by making the best loot only available on EE it is kind of thwarts that sense of progress. The Haunted Halls model is much better where they can get the item, but it will take longer to obtain and upgrade on lower difficulties. Once they get their item they might want to move up and try another difficulty.

The upgrade path you mentioned earlier is better because that sense of progress is there. If they do tiered loot that is the way to do it.

[JOTMON]

I like tiered loot it allows people to get gear and still strive for better versions of same/similar gear, it also allows a wider range of availability to player levels.
Gianthold was a great example of this.

The upgradeable loot was also decent, it allowed those that were unable to successfully complete the highest difficulty an option to improve their gear by repetitive lower difficulty.
It made sense.. run 30-40 EN to upgrade your item or 10ish EE.. challenge & reward for difficulty... incentive to run and challenge yourself to harder content for improved drop rates and better versions of rewards.

I am not a fan of BTCoE named gear.. it allows people who have not bought the packs, flagged the quests, or even step foot into the packs content to "Buy" the best of the best items from those zones..
You should at least have to run the content to get access to the items from that content.
EE items should never have been sellable.

BTA makes more sense to me.. I am the same player regardless of the toon I opt to bring into the challenge..
As the paying customer behind the toons I play, I have purchased access to the packs, run the content, and can opt to bring whichever alt toon that best suits the party makeup.

We are seeing more people coming into the game expecting instant access to endgame content without time investment just because of a sense of entitlement..
a growth of casual players complain of not having access to the same items.. which is BS.. they have access they just don't want to work for it, or invest time in a long term game.
So what if it takes them 4 months instead of 4 days.. its a reward for time investment.. play longer.

Consider that DDO is just one step up from Maintenance mode... and that Dev Time is at premium... So yes it all boil down to what gets done in a given time frame :
- Tri-Tiered items
- New Quests ( or epiced old )
- New Loot
- Enhancement Trees
- New Race
- New Class
- Revamp of old Adventure Area

You can only choose 3 from the list.... make your choice.

pft.. more doom posts.. and from a players council...
the choose 3 bs is just that.. bs...

We understand we can only get a limited supply and only a few things are available at a time, but what we get has to keep us occupied.
The occasional treat perks us up in the short term, but we cant survive on treats(and neither will the game).. we need meals (content with substance) .. and the promise of more treats in the near future.


DDO is poisoning its own path by removing developers and reducing content... they are forcing the game towards maintenance mode.
We already poured a lot of money into expansions that got sucked away by WB instead of being reinvested back into DDO development.
If they make more content we will play and more people will come and play.. stagnate the game and people will go play something else.
The money vampires of WB don't care they will suck the funds out of the game and discard the husk then move onto the next plump prize.

Games like WOW understand the MMO gaming concept quite well.. feed the people when they are hungry, but not enough for them to engorge themselves.
Always keep them a little hungry with the prize of more just within reach...

Once the prize no longer appears attainable then you will lose our attention... and once it is lost it is difficult to get it back.

[memloch]

I see no reason for tiered loot.

What I find funny is that on one hand you have people talking about how great the end game was when cap was at 20. On the other hand people talking about how they hate the seal/scroll/shard system. It was the Seal/Scroll/Shard system that made that end game what it was. You had to run quests to get the parts to make your item. It took a long time and it did feel good to make an item.

As they start creating the new end game my vote would be to bring back the seal/scroll/shard system.

[Dilbon]

The main problem with tiered loot is that the items are fundamentally different at higher difficulties. Added effects and different coloured slots. That's bad, makes EN/EH items often not worth it. Also being able to sell EE items is an awful idea, it's borderline cheating if you buy one in the AH for peanuts. And three tiers is too much, two is enough.

I will support tiered loot if these conditions are met:

1. Only two tiers, normal and elite/mythic/whatever.
2. Elite items only have bigger numbers but otherwise they are equal to normal items. Same ML. No extra effects, same coloured slots. +11 stat vs. +12 stat, +10 resist vs. +11 resist, 150 spellpower vs. 162 spellpower, that sort of thing.
3. Elite items are bound to account/character on acquire. They can't be traded.

[JOTMON]

You and others make many assumptions about people that are opposed to exclusive tiered loot. Most of us are running the content on EE and don't like tiered loot because we think it has a negative impact on the game overall.

People want to progress and by making the best loot only available on EE it is kind of thwarts that sense of progress. The Haunted Halls model is much better where they can get the item, but it will take longer to obtain and upgrade on lower difficulties. Once they get their item they might want to move up and try another difficulty.

The upgrade path you mentioned earlier is better because that sense of progress is there. If they do tiered loot that is the way to do it.

Haunted halls was a great quest.. but the loot was Over Powered for the challenge...
Items out of here are better than both the raids and are lower min level... some of these items are currently best in game items.

Ran a couple EE's didn't get much reward wise, but was a fun quest to run.. got killed in traps a lot.. but was still fun..
Then I ran it on solo Epic Casual twice because there was nothing else going on and I was bored..and got 3 different named items per run.. pretty much got everything there was to get from it that was of any interest to me.
Many others didn't even run the quest just bought the items off the ASAH... or regular AH..

This is not a good model for quests...where is the motivation to buy the pack, Expansion, team up with others, stockpile resources, , flag for raid, hunt resources to defend against bosses(like fire resists/absorption for peaks), challenge to more difficult content..
Why have difficulty choices if there is no reward improvement or better prize options.. there isn't..

Raids have the incremental 20th reward list.. that's motivation to run raids more.. but...
Why run raids 20x on EE.. there isn't any motivation to or reason to.... EE once for Favor/challenge.. then EN to 20th's.
The reward for challenge has been lost in the evolution of DDO.

[Enoach]

I think of all the Loot systems the two I found to be the most available/rewarding for all playstyles...

1. Scroll/Shard/Seal System - While it suffered in drops it gave incentive to run higher difficulties due to a higher percentage of drops. One change that could be made is a build system where you have Base and each of the Scroll/Shard/Seal could unlock parts of the epic item

2. Upgrade System like Fall of Truth, where Higher difficulties dropped a higher tier of the item. But a lower tier item could be updated through a building mechanic such as Commendations of Heroism and Relics.

Both systems allowed for different playstyles to get the top tier of the item, some just took longer to do so.

[slarden]

Haunted halls was a great quest.. but the loot was Over Powered for the challenge...
Items out of here are better than both the raids and are lower min level... some of these items are currently best in game items.

Ran a couple EE's didn't get much reward wise, but was a fun quest to run.. got killed in traps a lot.. but was still fun..
Then I ran it on solo Epic Casual twice because there was nothing else going on and I was bored..and got 3 different named items per run.. pretty much got everything there was to get from it that was of any interest to me.
Many others didn't even run the quest just bought the items off the ASAH... or regular AH..

This is not a good model for quests...where is the motivation to buy the pack, Expansion, team up with others, stockpile resources, , flag for raid, hunt resources to defend against bosses(like fire resists/absorption for peaks), challenge to more difficult content..
Why have difficulty choices if there is no reward improvement or better prize options.. there isn't..

Raids have the incremental 20th reward list.. that's motivation to run raids more.. but...
Why run raids 20x on EE.. there isn't any motivation to or reason to.... EE once for Favor/challenge.. then EN to 20th's.
The reward for challenge has been lost in the evolution of DDO.

How did you get enough stones to upgrade after one run on EE and one on EC?