SWF vs TWF vs THF vs SnB

[InsanityIsYourFriend]

*snip*

while I may agree with some of what you are saying, please try not to derail the thread, a new thread will work just as well for that, and I suggest if you wish the devs to look at what you are saying that would help.

[InsanityIsYourFriend]

*snip*

Not just THF, you see how far behind sword and board is to all the other ones? I create character builds a lot, one of the big things I love about DDO. I recently have noticed that most of my builds that choose any fighting style will almost always be better as a SWF if its not getting exclusive benefits (IE SNB for tanks or TWF for tempest)

[Comp.preacher]

Not just THF, you see how far behind sword and board is to all the other ones? I create character builds a lot, one of the big things I love about DDO. I recently have noticed that most of my builds that choose any fighting style will almost always be better as a SWF if its not getting exclusive benefits (IE SNB for tanks or TWF for tempest)

Indeed, sword and board has been far behind the curve for as long as I've been here. The new vanguard tree will be focused solely on shield users, so we'll have to see how that fits in to the balance, but yes I agree shield users are also well behind in total benefit compared to the other styles, in particular SWF.

The issue I have specifically with THF vs SWF is that THF is generally billed as being the best route for dps (or at least for Fighter/barb/paladin), but is actually far behind SWF for every build. It frustrates me that, assuming the same gear/weapon, without exception it is better to use a single weapon for DPS purposes.

[Grailhawk]

TWF benefits from single weapon effects multiplication such as sneak attack damage and secondary weapon effects. This is why pure rogues should always go with Twf

This is not 100% accurate because of the way that SWF multiplies doublestrike, there are SWF builds that have a higher attacks per second then TWF.

[Comp.preacher]

Thf has a longer reach, generally higher base damage, double bonus from power attack, and the highest cleave damage due to glancing blows on cleave.

I don't know about the reach part, however the difference between a thunderforged bastard sword and a thunderforged greatsword is only about ~8 damage, power attack favors two handers with another 5-11 damage. I checked the wiki but there was no mention of bastard swords/dwarven axes NOT getting glancing blows on cleaves just like any other weapon capable of producing glancing blows.

Heres why a Two hander can't compare to a single weapon anymore:

For our comparison, lets say a great sword wielding fighter does 100 points of damage a swing base, and an additional 50 from weapon effects on average (far below what most thunderforged get).

The same fighter with all the single weapon fighting feats using a bastard sword does about 20 less damage with just the base weapon from the loss of power attack and base weapon damage.

now lets say this fighter has 50 Str, and lets assume both fighters have an equal number of THF feats, so we can cancel out any dmg difference from glancing blows.

The great sword gets +30 dmg from the str mod, the bastard sword gets +40 dmg from that same mod.

Heres the wonky bit: we take the total weapon damage on average of the greatsword (100 base+30+50=180) and compare it to the bastard sword (80 base+50+40=170). But the bastard sword can get in 1.3 attacks for every one attack the greatsword can, so we need to multiple ALL weapon dmg by 1.3 (170*1.3=221). So we get 180 vs 221 in favor of the bastard sword. This gap widens in actual dmg as dmg goes higher from any source (in base, mod, or weapon effects). In other words, because weapon attack speed multiplies all other forms of weapon based dmg, at higher levels SWF beats out THF by around 30% on the low side, and will do so for almost ANY class/race combo you can make.

[unbongwah]

This is not 100% accurate because of the way that SWF multiplies doublestrike, there are SWF builds that have a higher attacks per second then TWF.

How is that possible? GSWF is +30% atk speed; pure Swashbuckler w/Legendary Shield Mastery has +20% doublestrike (5% from SB core, 15% from LSM). So that ought be 1.3 * 1.2 = 156% atks vs a single-wielding build w/out those bonuses. By comparison, any GTWF will have at least 80% offhand procs and most have 90-100% (presuming monk and/or rgr in the mix).

[Comp.preacher]

This is not 100% accurate because of the way that SWF multiplies doublestrike, there are SWF builds that have a higher attacks per second then TWF.

You need about 39% doublestrike chance to get to the same rate as a 0% doublestrike twf'er with single weapon fighting. (1.39*1.3=~1.8). These attacks are made with double your stat bonus mind you, and can also produce glancing blows if they are a bastard sword/dwarven axe.

This also got me thinking about druid wolf form, as it also has a 30% bonus to attack speed.

In general, Druids and SWF'ers benefit 30% more from every point of doublestrike because doublestrike only applies to mainhand attacks (this is compared to TWF'ers, THF'ers, and shield users)

[A-O]

I don't know about the reach part, however the difference between a thunderforged bastard sword and a thunderforged greatsword is only about ~8 damage, power attack favors two handers with another 5-11 damage. I checked the wiki but there was no mention of bastard swords/dwarven axes NOT getting glancing blows on cleaves just like any other weapon capable of producing glancing blows.

Heres why a Two hander can't compare to a single weapon anymore:

For our comparison, lets say a great sword wielding fighter does 100 points of damage a swing base, and an additional 50 from weapon effects on average (far below what most thunderforged get).

The same fighter with all the single weapon fighting feats using a bastard sword does about 20 less damage with just the base weapon from the loss of power attack and base weapon damage.

now lets say this fighter has 50 Str, and lets assume both fighters have an equal number of THF feats, so we can cancel out any dmg difference from glancing blows.

The great sword gets +30 dmg from the str mod, the bastard sword gets +40 dmg from that same mod.

Heres the wonky bit: we take the total weapon damage on average of the greatsword (100 base+30+50=180) and compare it to the bastard sword (80 base+50+40=170). But the bastard sword can get in 1.3 attacks for every one attack the greatsword can, so we need to multiple ALL weapon dmg by 1.3 (170*1.3=221). So we get 180 vs 221 in favor of the bastard sword. This gap widens in actual dmg as dmg goes higher from any source (in base, mod, or weapon effects). In other words, because weapon attack speed multiplies all other forms of weapon based dmg, at higher levels SWF beats out THF by around 30% on the low side, and will do so for almost ANY class/race combo you can make.

The problem with this analysis is A) as SWF you need both THF feats and SWF feats for glancing blows to be comparable straight off like that. and B) No twitching.
Remember that twitching adds ~20% attackspeed.

However, your conclusion is accurate in the sense that SWF does more damage (roughly 15-20% more damage), but Bastard sowrds aren't the way to get there.

[Saekee]

This is not 100% accurate because of the way that SWF multiplies doublestrike, there are SWF builds that have a higher attacks per second then TWF.

Well there are always going to be exceptions. I am working on a SWF kama/shuriken monk, for example, thx to the burst 100% doublestrike of shadow double etc. Since you can only add up to 20% offhand strikes, not counting the epic destiny of the offhand doublestrike, there is only just so much that one can do to buff the amount of hits of TWF. OTOH, SWF benefits far more by doublestrike--there are LOTS of ways of boosting doublestrike

The problem with this analysis is A) as SWF you need both THF feats and SWF feats for glancing blows to be comparable straight off like that. and B) No twitching.
Remember that twitching adds ~20% attackspeed.

However, your conclusion is accurate in the sense that SWF does more damage (roughly 15-20% more damage), but Bastard sowrds aren't the way to get there.

Also consider how the 'bastard' short sword line behaves, as an example of a weird set of exceptions--my SWF monk gets glancing blows with Sun Blades/Star of Day/Celestia.

[Comp.preacher]

The problem with this analysis is A) as SWF you need both THF feats and SWF feats for glancing blows to be comparable straight off like that. and B) No twitching.
Remember that twitching adds ~20% attackspeed.

However, your conclusion is accurate in the sense that SWF does more damage (roughly 15-20% more damage), but Bastard sowrds aren't the way to get there.

I have heard that they are going to reintroduce glancing blows on movement (which is good), but I haven't read anywhere that they would reintroduce the old implementation of the attack chain to allow for twitching, so for the purposes of this example, I'm assuming it'll work how it is on live. Bastard swords where used as an example so I could eliminate erroneous factors such as crit profile and enhancement considerations, I realize that most SWF use rapiers/handaxes/something else.

I am skeptical of the 15-20 percent number, even taking out glancing blows. However it may be possible to make up the difference we are seeing using cleave spamming tactics vs crowds of mobs. In any case, I'd be far more comfortable with it if the number was closer to ~8 percent, at which point I would say it was balanced well enough. I feel like it's kind of silling telling people in the character creation screen that melees who want to max out dps should go THF when it's so far behind SWF.

[Grailhawk]

How is that possible? GSWF is +30% atk speed; pure Swashbuckler w/Legendary Shield Mastery has +20% doublestrike (5% from SB core, 15% from LSM). So that ought be 1.3 * 1.2 = 156% atks vs a single-wielding build w/out those bonuses. By comparison, any GTWF will have at least 80% offhand procs and most have 90-100% (presuming monk and/or rgr in the mix).

I'm just saying that a Rogue is not 100% limited to TWF that SWF fighting has enough of what TWF does to be worth looking at. 1.45*1.45 = 2.10 which is grater then 1.15*1.8 = 2.07 TWF does have and hopefully always will have the max potential.

[RD2play]

Can't edit posts for some reason. TWF has 80% offhand with GTWF.

right click open in new tab -> should work, it does for me

[Lonnbeimnech]

They really should allow s&b to make use of swf. After playing around with a bard (swashbuckler) fighter (stalwart defender) I'm going to say, this is what a fighter should have been all along. Kinda silly that you have to splash bard to do it.

[unbongwah]

I'm just saying that a Rogue is not 100% limited to TWF that SWF fighting has enough of what TWF does to be worth looking at. 1.45*1.45 = 2.10 which is grater then 1.15*1.8 = 2.07 TWF does have and hopefully always will have the max potential.

Where are you getting 45% doublestrike from?

[Eth]

Where are you getting 45% doublestrike from?

Considering the 'typical' 12/6/2 split:
- 8% Improved Shield Mastery (will be gone after the next update)
- 9% Past Life
- 12% Item (Battlerager Harness)
- 5% PTWF (the irony...)
- 3% swashbuckler cores
- 3% artifact (who uses that nowadays...)
- 1% strike with no thought (if you can fit it in...)

that would be 41%. Well, close.

- 6% from reckless chant are possible in theory, but unlikely to fit in into a 12/6/2, because of AP shortage.
- 30% occasionally from action boost.

[FAQ]

twf: Swinging animation while moving makes you want to quit the game and do something else.

qft

[unbongwah]

Considering the 'typical' 12/6/2 split:
- 8% Improved Shield Mastery (will be gone after the next update)
- 9% Past Life
- 12% Item (Battlerager Harness)
- 5% PTWF (the irony...)
- 3% swashbuckler cores
- 3% artifact (who uses that nowadays...)
- 1% strike with no thought (if you can fit it in...)

Thanks for this, although my point was more "what doublestrike bonuses can a SWF build get that a TWF build cannot?" Because Grailhawk's hypothetical numbers seem to suggest that a SWF build can get a massive doublestrike bonus that the TWF build can't. But so far it looks like it's just the Shield Mastery & SB bonuses, which is what I suspected, and those cap out around 18-20% (LSM + SB cores). So his second formula shouldn't be "1.15 * 1.8," but more like "1.15*1.8 + 1.15*0.25" - the first part is the base atk speed times offhand procs, the second is the number of doublestrikes, in which case TWF pulls ahead again in terms of total number of hits. And that doesn't count offhand doublestrikes.

Not getting into a "which is better DPS?" argument, b/c waaaaay too many variables there, but in terms of total # of hits per sec, TWF still wins.

[Grailhawk]

Thanks for this, although my point was more "what doublestrike bonuses can a SWF build get that a TWF build cannot?" Because Grailhawk's hypothetical numbers seem to suggest that a SWF build can get a massive doublestrike bonus that the TWF build can't. But so far it looks like it's just the Shield Mastery & SB bonuses, which is what I suspected, and those cap out around 18-20% (LSM + SB cores). So his second formula shouldn't be "1.15 * 1.8," but more like "1.15*1.8 + 1.15*0.25" - the first part is the base atk speed times offhand procs, the second is the number of doublestrikes, in which case TWF pulls ahead again in terms of total number of hits. And that doesn't count offhand doublestrikes.

Not getting into a "which is better DPS?" argument, b/c waaaaay too many variables there, but in terms of total # of hits per sec, TWF still wins.

But not by enough to make it 100% true that Rogues should always be TWF.

As for the brake down.
15% Shield Mastery + Twist
12% Item
09% Past life
03% Artifact
03% Swashbuckler
06% Warchanter
03% Hail of Blows
05% PTWF
03% Opportunist
59% Total

As I said before TWF does have and hopefully always will have the max potential for attacks per second.

That said lets figure this out once and for all.

1.45(1.20+x) > 1.15*1.8 + 1.15x
1.798 + 1.45x > 2.07 + 1.15x
0.30x > 0.33
x > 1.1

So all things being equal TWF will have more APS, as it takes ~110% double strike for SWF to clearly start pulling ahead (that's a good thing).

However there will be time where a TWF build has little to no DS (say 5% or less) because +Damage and +Static effects are more valuable to TWF meaning that they will sacrifice Doulbestrike before there other effects.

Where as a SWF highly values Doublestrike and will want as much as he possible can. Meaning that there will be SWF builds that pull off a 1.45*1.50=2.18 vs TWF with only 1.15*1.8+1.15*0.05 = 2.13

[axel15810]

Thf has a longer reach, generally higher base damage, double bonus from power attack, and the highest cleave damage due to glancing blows on cleave.

Bit of a necro on this topic, but -

I'm trying to run the numbers and figure out if I should go THF or SWF - I have always assumed THF because I'm a huge cleave spammer and twitcher but now that I'm looking at the numbers I'm reconsidering.

Could anyone else explain this quote a little further? I'm trying to figure out if for a huge cleave spammer/twitcher if SWF is still better than THF. I understand that for THF line your glancing blows add to cleave damage. I don't understand how SWF is affected and if this puts it over the top of THF for my playstyle.

[Grailhawk]

Bit of a necro on this topic, but -

I'm trying to run the numbers and figure out if I should go THF or SWF - I have always assumed THF because I'm a huge cleave spammer and twitcher but now that I'm looking at the numbers I'm reconsidering.

Could anyone else explain this quote a little further? I'm trying to figure out if for a huge cleave spammer/twitcher if SWF is still better than THF. I understand that for THF line your glancing blows add to cleave damage. I don't understand how SWF is affected and if this puts it over the top of THF for my playstyle.

There is not enough information in your post to actually know which style would be better for you as its very build depended but based on what you are saying go THF and build around it, and learn how to properly twitch on bosses (never let the animation get to swing 3 brake it after 2 old video but its what you need to basically do https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMNKRrRrYP8).