Crush it and Friends crush the EE Truthful one

[Shade]

A little late to the party yea.. Haven't had a ton of time to devote to DDO like I use to.

But yea an ultra hard raid down none the less.

Group was 5 from crush it and 7 others, each of which I believe was from a different guild.. So yea Khybers pug scene alive and strong, even for ultra hard ee raids =)

Here's the pic you want to see - the loots!:


Was pretty nice, no bugs. Think it was 4 or 5 named items, all fully upgraded already. I got bracers, plus the 3 others shown in the shot, and several lvl24 augments too.

Full screenshot

Max favor or just abouts (havent messed with the so-called fixed challenges yet)
4622

Completion time listed 58 mins, maybe accurate, not sure.
Deathcout was 50ish (with our sub lvl25 caster managing a nice 11 deaths hehe.. Twoheals, who just got back to the game after playing guild wars several months only had a single death heh, hes awesome)
Potcount was reasonable considering i think since it was mostly melee dps, 10-20ish each healer, dunno for arcanes.

Fun raid, definetely tuned right for ultra high, but beatable difficulty.

Shame most of the raid loot is fairly boring, most ppl seemed more interested in the commendations. Least we all got 2 or 3. Seems to be 1d2+1 as expected for those on EE.

[mystafyi]

But yea an ultra hard raid down none the less.

even for ultra hard ee raids =)

Fun raid, definetely tuned right for ultra high, but beatable difficulty.

Mmmm sorry, but this raid has been solo'd already. shortmanned quite a bit on EE. not very ultra hard.

just sayin.....

[xTethx]

Mmmm sorry, but this raid has been solo'd already. shortmanned quite a bit on EE. not very ultra hard.

just sayin.....

Well its easier if you use the pull method and have a proper strategy going in, but if you go in with all the chaos and try to use the whole kite everything method, then yes it adds challenge. But I do agree, this raid isnt as challenging as say Elob when it was released, but that was a totally different game back then.

And gratz guys! Good job on the loots.

[zarthak]

gratz axer!

[Shade]

Mmmm sorry, but this raid has been solo'd already. shortmanned quite a bit on EE. not very ultra hard.

just sayin.....

The way that was done was obvious not the way Flimsy intended the raid to be ran. It's an extreme abuse of the games poor friendly AI. I'd highly recommend he fix that by preventing diplomacy from working, and set a script up to have the dragons patrol for players every ~5min if agrod on the stormreaver. Those two simple changes would make the raid impossible to solo on EE, and they'd have no effect on groups or hardcore players strong enough to overpower EN solo.

And I don't see you soloing it, so you really have no right to talk. The raid is ultra hard when done as intended.

I mean the fact the vast majority of servers haven't even beat it yet spearks volumes to that, the fact some guy used some cheese tactics to solo it doesn't change that. I mean we know for a fact it has unique, and pretty useful loot on EE only (The +30 energy resist all gem), so theres definetely interest from all servers, but only a few have managed it.

You could say it's "easy" to solo using the sneak/diplo cheese tactics. I don't know, but I doubt even thats that easy, there are still many factors in this raid that others just dont have that can end it for you. I will say absolutely no one in tne used sneak, no one used diplo, and we never had enough intimidate either, so controlling the agro was done entirely through dps, which is ultra difficult.

Teth same goes to you, I don't see a single completion from you, and all the ones your talked about were from the Lamannia version, it's changed a lot since then and got a lot harder.

And yea I agree it's not quite the same kind of challenge as (original) ELoB.. But it's not that far behind either. It has it's pros ands cons challenge wise:
ELoB:
- Extremely reliant on the skill of your tank for success. While this adds extreme challenge for one player, it takes the pressure off others.
+ LoB require(d) extreme reflexes, skill, build and general knowledge of the game for the tank to survive certain attacks.
- ELoB while difficult to control his agro, is still easier then controlling the agro of 6+ raid bosses plus a crazy stormreaver that has massive threat (and for us, unbeatable intim scores).
FoT:
- More gear reliant then skill. Completing it with 12 players with zero elec absorp items/no energy sheathe is near impossible, though if all 12 had 2 pieces and energy sheath and decent hp, the main source of deaths (lightning bolts) become trivial.
+ HP in the range of somewhere over 5x what the ELoB had, even accounting for our higher DPS means the whole group REALLY needs to contribute dps and stay on their game for a much longer period of time then EloB. (tho again less attention/skill is required if you have the elec absorp gear)
+ Far less room for piking, with constant trash waves and dragons running about (when done the only way you legitmately can in a group) EVERYONE has to be constant aware and ready to evade attacks all all directions. ELoB required you only to watch him for the majority of the raid, and generally for most players, do nothing until he reaches his rain of blade stage.

And yea, It's a new game, updated EELoB is hard, but our gear advances has taken the punch out of it that it originally had, so todays eeLoB is imo, easier then todays EEFoT. I'd rank LoB still above Lolth tho, thats a distant third thats mainly only tough due to its extreme length.

So it has it's challenge, just a differnet type. More about gearing up and executing a good strategy, then the reflexes and skill of one major player.

I mean we will never have the same kind of gut renching challenge that original Titan or early run ELoB provided due to the new direction of the game. But for what it is, I think Flimsy did as well could be expected here.

[griffin_230]

I was laughing during this raid, it was quite amusing.

Apart from the level 23 Sorc that kept dying (not that I blame him or anyone else that died, that damage was insane), we had a quite possibly alcoholic-induced rage moment from a Pally that was laughed off. Also, Axer, in his dry humor, was telling everyone to reroll their toons (probably for the umpteenth time) and I was laughing at the sight of a dragon pinned/pressed to the ground and sliding across the room in a weird animation (no idea what spell was on it, laughing so much I didn't check).

It was a good, challenging raid and done in good spirits.

[Carpone]

EE FoT is a fun raid, and pretty straightforward. Sucks to be a melee though.

The way that was done was obvious not the way Flimsy intended the raid to be ran.

Since when do you speak for developers?

[Keybreaker]

EE FoT is a fun raid, and pretty straightforward. Sucks to be a melee though.


Since when do you speak for developers?

Isn't mindreading a selectable twist from the Fury tree?

[nix_vali]

The raid is ultra hard when done as intended.

Teth same goes to you, I don't see a single completion from you, and all the ones your talked about were from the Lamannia version, it's changed a lot since then and got a lot harder. .

Im sorry to hear ur barb cant brute force this one.

Ps. Yes you are late.

[Vanshilar]

Mmmm sorry, but this raid has been solo'd already. shortmanned quite a bit on EE. not very ultra hard.

just sayin.....

I don't think it matters much. People are free to post in the achievements forum whatever they feel is an achievement, regardless of what other people or other servers have done. There's been nearly 50 solo VoD's posted in the achievements forum, so just because one was posted certainly didn't mean others shouldn't post, and this raid is certainly more difficult than that. The achievements forum should be a place to celebrate people's accomplishments and showing what is possible to do in the game.

They did it using a DPS-centric method, and that's great. I think we usually kite whatever we're not currently dealing with far away from the rest of the players, or aggro dump on the Stormreaver, but DPS to control aggro is also certainly a valid way to do it. (I guess kiting is technically DPS aggro as well.)

The way that was done was obvious not the way Flimsy intended the raid to be ran. It's an extreme abuse of the games poor friendly AI. I'd highly recommend he fix that by preventing diplomacy from working, and set a script up to have the dragons patrol for players every ~5min if agrod on the stormreaver.

So in a raid where the developer specifically made it so that the monsters can attack each other (which is different from most raids), using diplomacy to make the monsters attack each other is...obviously not intended? By that standard, other social skills like intimidate are similarly obviously not intended either. There's no general immunity on any of them (unlike things like say instakills on purple-named), so if using diplo is "cheese", then so is using intim.

+ HP in the range of somewhere over 5x what the ELoB had, even accounting for our higher DPS means the whole group REALLY needs to contribute dps and stay on their game for a much longer period of time then EloB.

EE LoB had around 860k HP last time I checked. So you're saying EE FoT has somewhere over 4 million HP? I hope you mean all the monsters total and not a single particular monster.

EDIT:

The raid is ultra hard when done as intended.

I mean the fact the vast majority of servers haven't even beat it yet spearks volumes to that

I bothered to look at when each server first completed EE FoT:

Argonnessen: 2/23/2013 http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=409459
Cannith: none posted yet
Ghallanda: 2/23/2013 http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=409511
Khyber: 2/25/2013 http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=409770
Orien: 2/20/2013 http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=408933
Sarlona: none posted yet
Thelanis: 2/20/2013 http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=408807
Wayfinder: none posted yet

Again I think it's fine that people post whatever they themselves feel is an achievement regardless of whether or not others have done it already, but in this case "vast majority" = 3 / 8.

[Carpone]

It's an extreme abuse of the games poor friendly AI. I'd highly recommend he fix that by preventing diplomacy from working, and set a script up to have the dragons patrol for players every ~5min if agrod on the stormreaver. Those two simple changes would make the raid impossible to solo on EE, and they'd have no effect on groups or hardcore players strong enough to overpower EN solo.

The player who soloed the raid didn't dump giants and dragons onto the Stormreaver, just the trash. Before the Fury changes, his Diplomacy was ~40 with a ConcOpp item for Tea with the Queen. He's since swapped his 45 HP Shroud item to Heavy Fort, so it was ~30 for his EE FoT completion.

[Shade]

Since when do you speak for developers?

I and he have been around more then long enough to understand the basics of how the devs think.

Youd think youd probably get it by now too. You know that theyve done something like 200+ specific changes to the game at this point to make stealth less viable and prevent strange tactics that rely on poor monster AI?

Plus I spoke with him speciificly about this raid in detail on Lamannia, as he watched our attempts for over 2 hours.

So yea I'm as well qualified as any veteran if not more to speak on "whats intended" in this game. The amount of times i've been right despite huge opposition from the majority of the player base is pretty high at this point to make me confident of that. I could name countless examples.

The fact of the matter is all the raid bosses are meant to be active during the raid. The way the guy did it, they were not all properly active. They obviously killed the stormreaver and looked for him several times over, but since he stuck in one corner of the map carefully, and there pathing wasn't done quite right they never found him. It's a clear bug, and not an intended way to beat the raid. It will be changed, mark my words.

To assume otherwise is like assuming the fact you could do the hound without every properly activating the raid was intended. A lot of players seemed to think that. But guess what, it was changed not long after to make that impossible.

Some raids do offer multiple routes to victory, but none offer ones as blatantly cheesy as this one on purpose.

[maddmatt70]

The player who soloed the raid didn't dump giants and dragons onto the Stormreaver, just the trash. Before the Fury changes, his Diplomacy was ~40 with a ConcOpp item for Tea with the Queen. He's since swapped his 45 HP Shroud item to Heavy Fort, so it was ~30 for his EE FoT completion.

Really just the trash? That surprises me I would think he would have dumped everything on the stormreaver although it probably is a much higher diplomacy check on the bosses. Just would seem easier to dump everything. I would have gotten my diplomacy up there and dumped it all if I were soloing.

[Keybreaker]

I and he have been around more then long enough to understand the basics of how the devs think.

Youd think youd probably get it by now too.

I and he get it now. It's a dinosaur, not a dragon.

[bhgiant]

I came for the popcorn. I left with a way to quite possibly solo my first raid.

Gratz btw. EE isn't easy.

[Shade]

EE LoB had around 860k HP last time I checked. So you're saying EE FoT has somewhere over 4 million HP? I hope you mean all the monsters total and not a single particular monster.

Bosses combined obviously. Truthone felt pretty similar to the EELoB tho. Stormreavers probably similar, just faster since you can crit him. Rest are likely in the 350-550k range.

7x ~450k = 3150
2x ~900k = 1800
= 4950, well over 5 times. Tho I was actually refering to the original epic lob hp, while factoring the fact we deal maybe 50-75% more damage now. Tho doign that way is roughly the same since his hp went up roughly 50% as well.

[Keybreaker]

I play the game how I have fun playing it, and it was challenging. To put me down for that is extremely disrespectful and against the forum rules.

Very rude reply. You dont see me post on your thread discrediting your achievement do you? Only reason i mention it here was in reply to people putting down my achievement by mentioning yours. Rather uncaring for you to jump on that bandwagon. Just further shows your lack of genuine desire for challenge and instead shows you prefer the easy route. Exactly how many exploits/other cheesy mechanics you used doesn't mater to me tho.

I and he play the game how I and he have fun playing it, and it was awesomesauce. To put I and he down for that is extremely disrespectful and against the forum rules.

Very rude reply. You dont see me post on your thread discrediting your achievement do you? Only reason i mention it here was in reply to people putting down his achievement by mentioning yours. Rather uncaring for you to jump on that bandwagon. Just further shows your lack of genuine desire for awesomesauce and instead shows you prefer the overly "challenging" route. Exactly how many handicaps/inflexible strategies you used doesn't mater to me tho.

[maddmatt70]

Yeah I kind of agree with you axer that there is a flaw in the raid. I would probably change the way the truthful one's agro works or the attacks that he does or his movement. I do not mind that heavy evasion tanks are preferred over non evasion ones, but I do not think that a ranged character should be able to hold the aggro of the truthful one. I think that would be the main fix the devs should make some sort of aggro mechanic which makes it basically impossible for a ranged character to hold the aggro of the truthful one or if a ranged character gets aggro the truthful teleports right on top of the ranged character and destroys him/her unless they can handle that kind of attack.

[Shade]

Yeah I kind of agree with you axer that there is a flaw in the raid. I would probably change the way the truthful one's agro works or the attacks that he does or his movement. I do not mind that heavy evasion tanks are preferred over non evasion ones, but I do not think that a ranged character should be able to hold the aggro of the truthful one. I think that would be the main fix the devs should make some sort of aggro mechanic which makes it basically impossible for a ranged character to hold the aggro of the truthful one or if a ranged character gets aggro the truthful teleports right on top of the ranged character and destroys him unless they can handle that kind of attack.

Yea the green dragon AI is utterly terrible and it was a shame it was chosen for him.. Puts a bit of a blemish on an otherwise outstanding raid. If they simply used standard dragon AI (EG: Black/Blue/White style), he would be much more menacing, powerful and just plain more fun to fight.

I have a detailed thread explaining why its so bad burried somewhere in the old U14 beta forum, cant find the link atm. But yea the just of it is the its much too easy for ranged, and unfairly punishing for melee in a broken, and un fun way.

[Keybreaker]

Insults and now lies too.....

You have not solo'd VoN5. As it is not soloable, and never has been. So no you have not solo'd every raid in the game, and no matter how much you might care to do such an arbitrary thing that seems completely irrelevant tp me and seems like you just threw that in as some kind of rude boast to put me down, You cannot.

The nerve of that guy. He is so insulting and uncaring. I have solo'd the ToD cave. Was in there all by myself (no hirelings either!) and then entered the next part of the raid, the tower itself.

Because any space that can fit a raid party is by definition a raid. I'm vindicated every time I loot my Epic Raid Tokens (now called Greater Tokens of the Twelve) at the end of VON5. This proves beyond the shadow of a glimmer of a whisper of a doubt that VON5 is a raid!