If the game is too easy then . . .

[llyrnionfor]

Artificially increasing difficulty is always interesting to play around with.
On Thief :TDP there was a couple of other ways of playing 'Lytha Style' which was Steal all loot in a level. Don't hurt anyone with any instrument, or any AIs at all, for that matter, and 'Ghost Style' which was the same, but you could never alert an AI to your existence.
Other games have build in modifiers, no rocket launchers, no health, melee only exc..
I say experiment, talk about your exploits and how you play it...who knows it may someday become an official mode of play...

+1 for being a connoiseur on one of the best games/series ever published

I've never mastered ghosting, but I did manage to go through a few missions without KOing anyone. Never on a first run, though, except for that mission on Thief 2 where it was a required objective because you had to frame someone, and you could leave no evidence of ever being there.

As for DDO, sometimes the way it's designed keeps the player from any approach that's not "full heads on" - e.g., the fights where you lock the player in a room and spawn the mobs/boss. There's not much variety of strategies for a situation like this.

[ninjadwarf_uk]

I agree. I've consistently said I don't think sanctioned PD would be a smart thing to do since I started saying it in '05.
Which is, again, why I think Maj's post about posting about playstyles in the hopes they become official was misleading, to put it kindly.I don't think "someday" will ever come for niche gamestyles or voluntary and self-imposed rulesets. PD or otherwise... no matter how often it is, or has been up till now, posted about.

I think you'll find he meant 'official' as in commonly accepted as a style of play by the players, in the same way permadeath is official.

Yeah, I've done this myself - I think it does make it a bit more challenging, although just knowing each quest inside and out does tend to make it easier. Doing the grind again for a new Bauble, and Torc, and Large Stones/Scales isn't exactly "fun" though

Skipping that grind and just playing with easily found loot when you do this will not only prevent you having to do the grind again, but it will make the game more challenging for you, which is the intent anyhow.

[smatt]

A game where players need to do things quickly, or shortmanned, or solo, or naked, or without pots, or with one hand, or while inviting 5 puggers to "try and help", or or or or...etc to find a sense of accomplishment...


...means the game does not really have enough challenge at the highest level.

Lack of challenge causes people to get bored and leave the game.

I mean...people soloed EE MoTU quests almost right away after it was released. WIthin weeks. Soloed. The hardest difficulty. Without resources, alone, on several different classes.

EN and EH are incredibly easier than old epic. And now we have EDs which are very, very powerful.

EN should be EH now. EH should be approaching EE now. EE should be silly hard, where the top players think of actually grouping.

EDs are brutally overpowered. EE is more difficult than old epic but it didn't increase in difficulty even close enough to keep the powergamers interested. EN/EH isn't even in the discussion.

I guess people will say "Go do stuff without gear, or without EDs".

That's stupid. Why grind for gear and then not use it? Why not use every advantage at your disposal? Having to gimp yourself to find challenge is innately not fun for a lot of people, including me.

I don't shoot myself in the foot before a cross country race so that it is fair on the competition. I'd rather they just got faster so that it is a close, exciting race.

There is no doubt that ED's at least in my mind are FAR over-powered. They should've been introduced in a more tiered way over time, as they were able to offer higher difficulty quests. There are several things I would fix about them immediately, wyas they are being used that are pretty stupid.

As for why would you gimp yourself.... Look, there's no way a game like DDO can keep up with it's small but skilled playerbase. Period.. Not unless you and a few thousand other people want to put out U$1,000 a month. I understand THAT frustration, but it's always been the case not just in DDO....

[Chai]

I agree. I've consistently said I don't think sanctioned PD would be a smart thing to do since I started saying it in '05.
Which is, again, why I think Maj's post about posting about playstyles in the hopes they become official was misleading, to put it kindly.I don't think "someday" will ever come for niche gamestyles or voluntary and self-imposed rulesets. PD or otherwise... no matter how often it is, or has been up till now, posted about.

PD is an official mode of play. Its just not enforced by the company or by coding in the game itself. Many people see the DDO game as a macrocosm in which different playstyles are the microcosm. In actuality the D&D game is the macrocosm, in which PD players exist, and the DDO game is the current microcosm - the interface by which PD players choose to play at this time. Before this it was NWN - which alot of people still play on the servers that are still left. PD has existed since the late 70s and will exist after DDO turns its lights off.

In order for "sanctioned" PD play to exist the game would need to be more like NWN where players can be servermasters.

[Produktion_Malphunktion]

Would Turbine officially defining permadeath rules - no matter the number of tick-able options - be a "good thing"? I can't see that can of worms ever being opened, let alone sanctioned. The current honor system of most PD groups is truly one of the last bastions of the original P&P spirit.

This and it has been talked about more than once. I personally would love it, but there is some logistical reasons not to change servers to different types of rules. We did exactly this on AC 1, and there is still and Evil server there...and at times is still a logistical headache.

[Produktion_Malphunktion]

Your examples do not support your conclusion. The DDO team seems to be hellbent on finding new ways to screw over players that enjoy using stealth and guile over brute force.

And just in case you think that this is old news, let me draw your attention to this little tidbit from the Lammania release notes:

NEW: The quest "End of the Road" has a new additional quest objective. You must now kill a certain number of Netherese forces in addition to killing the demon to complete the quest.

Wrong since what I am saying is the playerbase created new playstyles. I'm not saying anything about if stealth is good or bad in the current game. Of course DDO is not as good as Thief in the sneak dept..because no game since then has been as good at stealth.

[Ape_Man]

The people who complain about lack of challenge would be the first to freak out if something got nerfed to reign in OP classes/EDs/PREs.

[Produktion_Malphunktion]

+1 for being a connoiseur on one of the best games/series ever published

I've never mastered ghosting, but I did manage to go through a few missions without KOing anyone. Never on a first run, though, except for that mission on Thief 2 where it was a required objective because you had to frame someone, and you could leave no evidence of ever being there.

As for DDO, sometimes the way it's designed keeps the player from any approach that's not "full heads on" - e.g., the fights where you lock the player in a room and spawn the mobs/boss. There's not much variety of strategies for a situation like this.

I completed Baffords on Expert in 26 seconds. I'm not telling how, but yes there is a bug.
We used to do speed runs in Thief, most levels could be completed surprisingly quickly once you mastered them, but the Lost City...28 minutes was the quickest...the level is just too large and enemy placement and type forces you to fight them.

Framed was a cool mission, but I still think Thief 1 had more charm.


And by Exploits I mean talk about your adventures...not your cheating ways! **** you forum folk...**** you all!!

[Cetus]

And by Exploits I mean talk about your adventures...not your cheating ways! **** you forum folk...**** you all!!

How about this, for every exploit we share with you - the more information about the enhancement pass you share with us?

Worth a try!

[stainer]

**** you forum folk...**** you all!!

This will probably be everyone's new forum sig.

[Ape_Man]

How about this, for every exploit we share with you - the more information about the enhancement pass you share with us?

Worth a try!

With what's happening with Rusted Blades we're owed a bunch

[gradeyshane]

Do the quests with empty gear slots. Solo VOD elite no one is impressed. Solo VOD elite no rings helm neclace gloves cloak and boots then youhave my respect.

For fun try epic hard lord of dust easy quest no gear except 1 piece. Its doable different and a challenge. If you are fully decked out ever quest shiuld be easy.

Try Epic hard von 6 with only one gear item ---- that would be a real raid and require teamwork. Its doable but requires teamwork.

Anybody else have an idea about a gear restricted challenge?

Orrrr, you could just play the game YOU enjoy and give everyone else a bared cheek to smooch. Who cares if anyone has your respect and who cares if I dont like how you play? It has ZERO impact on the game..to have respect or not. So just go and enjoy yourself and stop it with all the attempts to get cool points.

[Viisari]

The people who complain about lack of challenge would be the first to freak out if something got nerfed to reign in OP classes/EDs/PREs.

Nerfs are no fun and often taken way too far.

We're at epic levels, we're supposed to be overpowered but our enemies are supposed to be even more overpowered or utilize better strategies/gear/spells/whatever than they currently do.

I'd personally prefer to see something else than just bumping up the mob CR, with a decent group all that does is increase the time it takes to kill stuff. There's been some nice progress on this front time to time but seeing even more of it would be nice.

[Forzah]

*somehow I made a 2nd post instead of editing it.

[Forzah]

Nerfs are no fun and often taken way too far.

We're at epic levels, we're supposed to be overpowered but our enemies are supposed to be even more overpowered or utilize better strategies/gear/spells/whatever than they currently do.

I'd personally prefer to see something else than just bumping up the mob CR, with a decent group all that does is increase the time it takes to kill stuff. There's been some nice progress on this front time to time but seeing even more of it would be nice.

An improvement to AI would definitely help. Mobs not letting themselves get kited easily would be one step in the right direction. They probably need a wider range of attacks as well, such as stunning attacks, or an ability to place traps near them. Mob behaviour is very predictable at this point, seriously reducing challenge.

[Ape_Man]

Nerfs are no fun and often taken way too far.

I can't disagree with this. But in the current state of the game where some Classes/EDs/PREs are so far and beyond ubber compared to other Classes/EDs/PREs the content is balanced for the weaker set.

Any quest that a Ranger can complete a Sorc will find easy. It's just how it is.

We're at epic levels, we're supposed to be overpowered but our enemies are supposed to be even more overpowered or utilize better strategies/gear/spells/whatever than they currently do.

Getting more powerful is FUN. Growing your character is fun. But as you say below . . .

I'd personally prefer to see something else than just bumping up the mob CR, with a decent group all that does is increase the time it takes to kill stuff. There's been some nice progress on this front time to time but seeing even more of it would be nice.

This is why I love "In the Flesh." It's end-fight is just downright evil and it's done not just by giving the boss a ton of HP and DPS. I'd like to see more of that.

[Viisari]

Any quest that a Ranger can complete a Sorc will find easy. It's just how it is.

You forgot monks, gmotf, anything with a fully stacked masters blitz, high tier wizards, bards etc etc

Currently there are tons of build options that just wreck everything, before it was arcanes and divines doing most of the heaviest wrecking so I guess things are a little bit better in that regard. Rangers are also very powerful currently (though you're still better off with only taking 12 levels...), adrenalineshot is hilariously strong.

I've done lots of shortmanning and runs without arcanes or healers or neither in EE quests, and with a good group setup there really isn't huge difference compared to if you had some arcanes or divines with you. They're still powerful, but now many other things are also very powerful.

[bradleyforrest]

This and it has been talked about more than once. I personally would love it, but there is some logistical reasons not to change servers to different types of rules. We did exactly this on AC 1, and there is still and Evil server there...and at times is still a logistical headache.

If you could get past the rampant racial epithets, Darktide was the best server to play on. Thought it was clearly the "Evil" server, it had the potential for the most fun.

Now I want to go play AC. It's been a loooong time though and I'm sure there have been so many changes it would be like stepping into a new game for me.

[Ape_Man]

You forgot monks, gmotf, anything with a fully stacked masters blitz, high tier wizards, bards etc etc

Currently there are tons of build options that just wreck everything, before it was arcanes and divines doing most of the heaviest wrecking so I guess things are a little bit better in that regard. Rangers are also very powerful currently (though you're still better off with only taking 12 levels...), adrenalineshot is hilariously strong.

I've done lots of shortmanning and runs without arcanes or healers or neither in EE quests, and with a good group setup there really isn't huge difference compared to if you had some arcanes or divines with you. They're still powerful, but now many other things are also very powerful.

I should have said bard

But you get my point I think. We to have been having a blast lately running EEs with no casters or divines.

[SableShadow]

Of course DDO is not as good as Thief in the sneak dept..because no game since then has been as good at stealth.

Weeeeeell ... what happens is, quest designers try to "slow teh zerg!"; a lot of these measures hit stealth players. "Kill x to open door" is a prime example.

FF could probably speak volumes on the issue (just remind him of Monastery of the Scorpion and the decision to add doors).

This will probably be everyone's new forum sig.

What is this "probably" you speak of?