The Juggernaut - Prime of the Warforged

**Carpone** · 02-06-2013, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by emptysands

Given this is a survivalist build, even a high 40s/low 50s reflex will be useful in EE.

Ocean Stance doesn't apply with an eSoS, -2 DEX for not having completionist, and Ranger Favored Resistance I is too niche. I wouldn't count on a 47 Reflex save (49 with +7 item) to be reliable in EE content, such as the spikes in End of the Road end fight or the first optional in CitW.

**Bacab** · 02-06-2013, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by Carpone

Ocean Stance doesn't apply with an eSoS, -2 DEX for not having completionist, and Ranger Favored Resistance I is too niche. I wouldn't count on a 47 Reflex save (49 with +7 item) to be reliable in EE content, such as the spikes in End of the Road end fight or the first optional in CitW.

I agree...

On my Clonk I push my saves up to 60s....except my Reflex...that remains in low 50's (higher when a Paladin is around...)

Anyway, I am at about 50/50 on Reflex saves on new EE content.

I'd say my 50ish Reflex is at about 75% in "old EE" content though.

That being said...on my Clonk I have 4 Energy Absorption Items (10, 15, 20%...45% total) and it helps a lot. I also wear greaves and fireshield when it called for. I generally "always" save on Spells...

Traps on the other hand...those hurt. Often they are spike or blades...or Sonic or Force (so no Absorption item for Sonic or Force). Those can one shot me...or at the very least hurt me badly and get me nervous.

Sooooo my question...

I am HOPING/PLANNING on doing the Ranger version of the Jugg (my plan is to level as a standard Arty because he is level 10 already and has a few Arty PLs and Ranger PLs and FVS PLs...and then Lesser Heart into the Juggy once I am properly ED'd).

My point...going ranger version=lower saves but higher reflex (due to 19 for IPS)

Can a Juggy get those horrible TRAPS and save itself?

I am not so much worried about spell saves...its the traps that hurt.

Also...

With 2 FVS PL (they do nothing...)
3 Arty Past Lives (3 UMD...and I just liked leveling him)
3 Ranger Past Lives (Because until this build...Pew pew pew was the only way I wanted to play Arty)

Should I go PLD or Ranger version?

I am thinking in new GiantHold...a better ranged option is helpful. Lotsa monster Perch you in GH in the regular version (Madstone at the 2nd and 3rd Summoner)...Crucible too.

Though, I bet the better saves from PLD version would be nice too though...

Choices...

I just think the 3 Ranger PLs just kinda steer me toward the RNG version...but then again...is +6 DMG really that big of a deal (though with crits it may be a lot more?)

What do you guys think?

Also...Cormyian Red Scale Docent? Yay or nay? I Kinda am thinking about just getting that +8 CON Docent or an old Epic Docent for situational use...

Any/All input is much appreciated.

One last thing...I hate wasting a feat on Weapon Focus Ranged...but I am having a hard time finding something better (or did they improve weapon focus?) with my Arty bonus feat.

Maybe Skill Focus UMD?

**WruntJunior** · 02-06-2013, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by Bacab

I agree...

On my Clonk I push my saves up to 60s....except my Reflex...that remains in low 50's (higher when a Paladin is around...)

Anyway, I am at about 50/50 on Reflex saves on new EE content.

I'd say my 50ish Reflex is at about 75% in "old EE" content though.

That being said...on my Clonk I have 4 Energy Absorption Items (10, 15, 20%...45% total) and it helps a lot. I also wear greaves and fireshield when it called for. I generally "always" save on Spells...

Traps on the other hand...those hurt. Often they are spike or blades...or Sonic or Force (so no Absorption item for Sonic or Force). Those can one shot me...or at the very least hurt me badly and get me nervous.

Sooooo my question...

I am HOPING/PLANNING on doing the Ranger version of the Jugg (my plan is to level as a standard Arty because he is level 10 already and has a few Arty PLs and Ranger PLs and FVS PLs...and then Lesser Heart into the Juggy once I am properly ED'd).

My point...going ranger version=lower saves but higher reflex (due to 19 for IPS)

Can a Juggy get those horrible TRAPS and save itself?

I am not so much worried about spell saves...its the traps that hurt.

Also...

With 2 FVS PL (they do nothing...)
3 Arty Past Lives (3 UMD...and I just liked leveling him)
3 Ranger Past Lives (Because until this build...Pew pew pew was the only way I wanted to play Arty)

Should I go PLD or Ranger version?

I am thinking in new GiantHold...a better ranged option is helpful. Lotsa monster Perch you in GH in the regular version (Madstone at the 2nd and 3rd Summoner)...Crucible too.

Though, I bet the better saves from PLD version would be nice too though...

Choices...

I just think the 3 Ranger PLs just kinda steer me toward the RNG version...but then again...is +6 DMG really that big of a deal (though with crits it may be a lot more?)

What do you guys think?

Also...Cormyian Red Scale Docent? Yay or nay? I Kinda am thinking about just getting that +8 CON Docent or an old Epic Docent for situational use...

Any/All input is much appreciated.

One last thing...I hate wasting a feat on Weapon Focus Ranged...but I am having a hard time finding something better (or did they improve weapon focus?) with my Arty bonus feat.

Maybe Skill Focus UMD?

Skill Focus UMD is completely unneeded. Also, WF:Ranged is required for bow strength (if you go with the pally version...I don't remember the ranger version taking WF:Ranged).

I'm personally looking at a black scale set on my Jugg for docent/helm, along with Nether Grasps/Bracers of Twisting Shade for seeker.

In my experience with EEs, a high enough reflex to make 50-75% of saving throws (mine's at a 50 buffed currently on my sorc) is enough for most things, assuming you have a quickened self-heal (like this build does)...especially since you can disable the painful spell wards (currently looking at full ranks in trap skills, so should be perfectly fine with them at cap, especially since the bracers I want are a +20 item).

**Miow** · 02-06-2013, 09:52 AM

Why start the ranger version with arti instead of rgr level don't you get more skill points as a rgr starting off? (like 8 more pts)

**zarthak** · 02-06-2013, 09:52 AM

hey, would you think `17 arti 2 monk 1 druid would be good? deadly rams might/ wind stance/ shelalghi ( until lvl 17 when u get deadly

**unbongwah** · 02-06-2013, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by Miow

Why start the ranger version with arti instead of rgr level don't you get more skill points as a rgr starting off? (like 8 more pts)

You do, but starting arty unlocks the arty skills (UMD, OL, Disable) first.

**Bacab** · 02-06-2013, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by zarthak

hey, would you think `17 arti 2 monk 1 druid would be good? deadly rams might/ wind stance/ shelalghi ( until lvl 17 when u get deadly

The one extra level does not really give you much...

The missing out on 2 PLD (Divine Grace, cure wands to get someone from incap at low level, LoH helps a ton at low level)

Or

2 RNG (some Bow feats, Bow STR namely, wands for incap, sprint boost)

**knockcocker** · 02-06-2013, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by WruntJunior

S... WF:Ranged is required for bow strength (if you go with the pally version...I don't remember the ranger version taking WF:Ranged).

WF:Ranged is a pre-req. for Bow Strength. Bow Strength is an auto-grant at Ranger
L1 hence WF:Ranged is not required on that build.

**Bacab** · 02-06-2013, 10:50 AM

Aha!

On the Ranger version...

Rather than WF Ranged...go with Extend!

Seems like you will get more mileage out of Extend.

**unbongwah** · 02-06-2013, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by zarthak

hey, would you think `17 arti 2 monk 1 druid would be good? deadly rams might/ wind stance/ shelalghi ( until lvl 17 when u get deadly

The main drawback is losing the extra feats from rgr or the +saves from pally; the latter seems particularly important if you want "good enough" Reflex for EE. But if you do go that route and plan to use staves, why not arty 16 / monk 3 / druid 1 for the light buffs (mostly Align the Heavens for -25% SP cost)?

**Miow** · 02-06-2013, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by unbongwah

The main drawback is losing the extra feats from rgr or the +saves from pally; the latter seems particularly important if you want "good enough" Reflex for EE. But if you do go that route and plan to use staves, why not arty 16 / monk 3 / druid 1 for the light buffs (mostly Align the Heavens for -25% SP cost)?

I like this idea

**Lurzifer** · 02-06-2013, 11:58 AM

Since i switched to EH version of Treads of falling Shadow yesterday i am sitting on 38 Dex with ship and tensers, means i have a 54 reflex save, more against traps.

With U17 i recon ill get at least +3-5 on each save due to resistance +7 instead of currently +5 and more stat points with new slot system.

Will end up with 58/ 57 / 52 on my Ranger Version, and remember if there is something in the quest with high DCs u can always use more twists for that quest.

I had the 3 monk version on my table as well at some point, 16 arti 1 ranger 3 monk to be precise, but i didnt go for it because u have to stay centered that way and cannot make use of other weapons.

I really should update the OP at some point to the current version of my build since it is always in development and evolves by playing it.

With U17 slotting system and the added slots to cleaver and pinion those two weapons will be best in slot for the juggernaut.

**Varashad** · 02-06-2013, 12:09 PM

Question; would this build work as a fighter(2)/monk(2)/cleric(16) human? I don't have artificer and I don't want to ever waste time getting it, but I like this concept of an unstoppable, solo capable beast. It would obviously lack trap skills, umd, and some arti buffs, but I still think it could be doable.

**cdr** · 02-06-2013, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Varashad

Question; would this build work as a fighter(2)/monk(2)/cleric(16) human? I don't have artificer and I don't want to ever waste time getting it, but I like this concept of an unstoppable, solo capable beast. It would obviously lack trap skills, umd, and some arti buffs, but I still think it could be doable.

"Would this build work as a completely different build that was nothing like it?"

**Blank_Zero** · 02-06-2013, 12:16 PM

Oh here it is!

Someone mentioned Juggernaut to me and I hadn't a clue what the hell they were on about.

Looks like a fine build though. And the video is impressive to say the least.

Two questions though:

1. Can we get the planner version or something close to (I'd love to roll up my Wizzy or Bard into something like this.)

2. What skin/program/etc did you have on that let you see the HP values of the monsters you were fighting? I'd live something like that to actually test DPS with.

**Carpone** · 02-06-2013, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by WruntJunior

I'm personally looking at a black scale set on my Jugg for docent/helm, along with Nether Grasps/Bracers of Twisting Shade for seeker.

It's very difficult to pump Reflex to make Evasion reliable in recent EE content without Superior Parrying (which only appears on bracers, or certain weapons). Why not Adamantine Cloak of the Wolf instead? Awesome melee cloaks are rather limited.

It's refreshing to be able to consider Nether Grasps instead of being limited to one of two 30% healing amp gloves. That assumes you'll have EE Dream Visor though (or Sireth+Planar Focus), which has one of the lowest drop rates of any U17 loot thanks to the randomness of PoP chests. I've done PoP 200+ times through my 30 TRs and can count the number of named items I've pulled on both my hands. Be prepared to pay a fortune for one, ala Marilith Chain scrolls before the 3:1 exchange.

**Carpone** · 02-06-2013, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Varashad

Question; would this build work as a fighter(2)/monk(2)/cleric(16) human?

No. Without the four bonus Artificer feats, you wont have the core melee and ranged capabilities this build offers. Plus whenever people see the Cleric symbol they're going to expect you to heal them, or hate you for not doing it. For me that's one of the primary attractions to this build after playing healer variants for years: The freedom of self-healing/sustaining melee that has zero implied obligations to heal others.

**fyrst.grok** · 02-06-2013, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by Carpone

No. Without the four bonus Artificer feats, you wont have the core melee and ranged capabilities this build offers. Plus whenever people see the Cleric symbol they're going to expect you to heal them, or hate you for not doing it. For me that's one of the primary attractions to this build after playing healer variants for years: The freedom of self-healing/sustaining melee that has zero implied obligations to heal others.

Heh amen to that - my fvs is going to try something similar to this

Haven't grouped on him since before MotU because i hate healing others.

**emptysands** · 02-06-2013, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by Blank_Zero

1. Can we get the planner version or something close to (I'd love to roll up my Wizzy or Bard into something like this.)

2. What skin/program/etc did you have on that let you see the HP values of the monsters you were fighting? I'd live something like that to actually test DPS with.

2. One of the Monster Manual completion bonuses gives you HP values.

1. Was playing around with Paladin version the below last night. The Ranger version is probably easier to setup.

See also:
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...4&postcount=34 - unbongwah version
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...2&postcount=38 - Viisari version
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...5&postcount=53 - Machination Ranger version

One thing I notice, the feat order is a bit of a fiddle. For example - PBS would be useful at level 1 for levelling, but unless you shift the monk/paladin levels you can only get it at level 8 with the first (level 4 arty) bonus feat.

Code:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.16.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page

The Juggernaut
Level 25 Lawful Good Warforged Male
(2 Paladin \ 2 Monk \ 16 Artificer \ 5 Epic) 
Hit Points: 404
Spell Points: 985 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 13
Will: 14

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(34 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 25)
Strength             16                    26
Dexterity            14                    17
Constitution         18                    21
Intelligence         12                    15
Wisdom                6                     9
Charisma             10                    13

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 6
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 6
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 6
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 6
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 6
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 6
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11
+4 Tome of Strength used at level 15

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 25)
Balance               2                    25
Bluff                 0                     7
Concentration         4                    18
Diplomacy             0                     7
Disable Device        5                    30
Haggle                0                     7
Heal                 -2                     7
Hide                  2                     9
Intimidate            0                     7
Jump                  3                    14
Listen               -2                     5
Move Silently         2                     9
Open Lock             6                    22
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                1                     8
Search                5                    30
Spot                  2                    11
Swim                  3                    14
Tumble                n/a                  10
Use Magic Device      4                    29

Level 1 (Artificer)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow


Level 2 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 3 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+3)


Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+3)


Level 6 (Artificer)
Skill: Search (+5)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave


Level 7 (Artificer)
Skill: Disable Device (+5)
Skill: Search (+1)


Level 8 (Artificer)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+3)
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Point Blank Shot


Level 9 (Artificer)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Soldier of the Faith


Level 10 (Artificer)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)


Level 11 (Artificer)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 12 (Artificer)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Weapon Focus: Ranged Weapons


Level 13 (Artificer)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 14 (Artificer)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 15 (Artificer)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Bow Strength


Level 16 (Artificer)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Rapid Shot


Level 17 (Artificer)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 18 (Artificer)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Manyshot


Level 19 (Artificer)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 20 (Artificer)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Quicken Spell


Level 21 (Artificer)
Skill: Diplomacy (+2)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Repair (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+77845624)
Feat: (Selected) Overwhelming Critical


Level 22 (Artificer)
Skill: Swim (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+77846944)


Level 23 (Artificer)
Skill: Bluff (+0.5)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+77847316)


Level 24 (Artificer)
Skill: Bluff (+1.5)
Feat: (Selected) Epic Toughness


Level 25 (Artificer)
Skill: Bluff (+1.5)

Edit: Looks like the skills are bugged with the new epic code.

Code:

Level 20 (Artificer) 
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)

**emptysands** · 02-06-2013, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by Varashad

Question; would this build work as a fighter(2)/monk(2)/cleric(16) human? I don't have artificer and I don't want to ever waste time getting it, but I like this concept of an unstoppable, solo capable beast. It would obviously lack trap skills, umd, and some arti buffs, but I still think it could be doable.

If you don't have Arty, then the most similar to this is probably a Tukaw build. However, it drops the ranged option.

16 cleric is a bad split. Notwithstanding expectations from the players, 17 cleric opens up a lot of different ways of playing.

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