60+ dc

[Alavatar]

I keep hearing people refer to casters being able to get a 60+ DC, but I am having difficulty determining how to get that high. The highest I have been able to calculate is DC55 situationally with Store Potions, Abishai Cookies, and House D Alchemical Potions (for non-Evocation/Conjuration) with a situational, 20 second, +5 boost every 4 minutes.

10 - Base
+9 - Heighten to L9
+3 - Magister School Specialist
+3 - Spell Focus + Greater Spell Focus + Epic Spell Focus
+2 - Greater Spell Focus item
+1 - Lich (obviously I am calculating for Necromancy)
+1 - Wizard PL
+28 - 66 INT (+24 - 58 INT sustainably, +25 - 60 INT for a Drow)
-------------
Total DC57 (DC53 sustainably)(add +1 for Drow)

Intelligence Calculations
18 - Base
+6 - Level-ups
+3 - Enhancements
+8 - Item (apparently a Docent has +8 stats in the new content)
+1 - Exceptional (ToD Ring)
+2 - Wizard Capstone
+2 - Lich Form
+6 - Magister Intelligence I-VI
+1 - Profane from Litany
+4 - Inherent (Tome)
+3 - Insight (apparently some items in the expansion drop Insight bonus types)
+2 - Guild Shrine
+2 - Yugoloth Potion
+2 - Store Potion (situational)
+4 - Profane from Abishai cookies (situational)(does not stack with Litany)
+3 - House D Alchemical (situational)
-------------------------------
Total 66 INT (58 INT sustainably, 50 INT for a Drow)


So, I see a DC53 (DC54 for a Drow) as the most sustainable DC a Necromancy character can reliably maintain. What am I missing that will make casters have a sustainable DC60+ that several people are using as part of their argument for nerfing casters?

[DeafeningWhisper]

I saw the math once, they also counted: +1 dc from spell singer song, +1 dc from wiz PL, +4 int from epic bard song and completionist, because as we all know every caster is a completionist with every piece of gear in the game a bard tied to the hip and tons of temp boosts...

[paraplegic]

i saw the math once, they also counted: +1 dc from spell singer song, +1 dc from wiz pl, +4 int from epic bard song and completionist, because as we all know every caster is a completionist with every piece of gear in the game a bard tied to the hip and tons of temp boosts...

+1

[ulticleo]

I saw the math once, they also counted: +1 dc from spell singer song, +1 dc from wiz PL, +4 int from epic bard song and completionist, because as we all know every caster is a completionist with every piece of gear in the game a bard tied to the hip and tons of temp boosts...

well, we are talking here about max attainable, not max realistic sustainable...

I think you forgot:
there will be +8 items
exceptional is changing from +1/+2 stacking to +1 exceptional, +3 insight
greater int +1 (you can only take 1 since you are taking epic spell focus)

so that's another +3 permanent int

[Shade]

I'll take a quick stab, probably missing several things, but can improve on your figures quite a bit:

10 - Base
+9 - Heighten to L9
+3 - Magister School Specialist
+3 - Spell Focus + Greater Spell Focus + Epic Spell Focus
+2 - Greater Spell Focus item
+1 - Lich (obviously I am calculating for Necromancy)
+1 - Wizard PL
+1 - Major Spell Focus item (Exists for necromancy, see u14 items thread)
= 30
+5 - Arcane spellsurge (innate magister ability)
= + 35
-------------
+34 - 78 INT ( Drow)
---------------
Total DC69 (for 20 seconds)
DC 64 - Sorta sustainable, tho very costly

Intelligence Calculations
20 - Base
+6 - Level-ups
+3 - Enhancements
+8 - Item (Available in lootgen and many named items)
+3 - Exceptional (ToD Ring)
+2 - Wizard Capstone
+2 - Lich Form
+6 - Magister Intelligence I-VI
+1 - Profane from Litany
+4 - Inherent (Tome)
+3 - Insight (apparently some items in the expansion drop Insight bonus types)
+2 - Guild Shrine
+2 - Yugoloth Potion
+2 - Store Potion (situational)
+4 - Profane from Abishai cookies (situational) (This actaully does stack with litany, its not really typed as profane)
+3 - House D Alchemical (situational)
-------------------------------
+3 - twist in 3 int from Draconic Incarnation
+4 - Inspire Excellence from a Bard
= 78 INT
Maybe 76, as the +3 Insight may not stack with a ToD rings +2, unconfirmed.

Also note:
Necromancy is one of the lowest possible schools for DC.
Evocation can get a ton higher, as several better twists exist, and +3 from PLs.
Conjuration even higher then Evocation, as same as evocation twists, +3 PL and +1 from Epic Abishai Robe.

I'm not using this for any arguement towards nerfing casters.

I did use it once towards BUFFING epic elite monster saves. A very positive use of this data imo.

[KillEveryone]

I didn't see completionist INT listed.

As I understand it, the boat buff for spells is the same as spell singer song that boosts spell DCs so it is easier to get that buff.

Looking at some of those calculations, I understand why I don't have the same DC others have. I'm not willing to spend TP on pots to boost that, nor do I have house D or abashi cookies in abundance, and I don't have the plat to drink a Yugo pot for each quest.

Unless the DC is sustainable without a lot of conusmable, I don't really believe people are going to be running around with a sky high DC, and some of that stuff is lucky to get like a INT tome.

A realistic calculation without consumables would be better to see, as I would feel that better represents what the average player will readily have. Abashi cookies may change since cookies do change or they may go away, house D pots you have to have the collectables and you have to get lucky since you can't just purchase them and they are rather short.

Break down the calculations of gear based then have a section that lists the temporary buffs. Timer for those pots should also be shown so that we can have a better idea of what to actually expect.

[Alavatar]

+1 - Major Spell Focus item (Exists for necromancy, see u14 items thread)

I saw the Major Spell Focus on the Staff of Necromancy, but I am confused by it. What is it? Normally, on an item, Spell Focus = +1, Greater Spell Focus = +2, Epic Spell Focus = +3 (see Epic Robe/Docent of the Diabolist).

+2 - Store Potion (situational)
+4 - Profane from Abishai cookies (situational) (This actaully does stack with litany, its not really typed as profane)
+3 - House D Alchemical (situational)
-------------------------------
+3 - twist in 3 int from Draconic Incarnation
+4 - Inspire Excellence from a Bard

DC 64 - Sorta sustainable, tho very costly

But, what is reasonably sustainable? I propose that Store Potions, House D Alchemy, Abishai Cookies, and possibly even Inspire Excellence are not reasonable to expect for most situations and so should not be included for a calculation. Completionist definitely is not reasonable to expect.

Additionally, you only get 24 points to invest in ED. If you are using 18 of them for INT (6 INT from Magister and 3 from Draconic Incarnation), plus 3 for School Specialization, you are left with only 3 more to spend on other ... stuff. Is it reasonable to assume most Wizards are going to twist in INT from Draconic Incarnation? I am not certain, hence the question. I do not know what I am going to do.

If you take out those 16 INT you are left with a 60 INT (assuming Drow). That calculates to a reliable, sustainable DC 55 for Necromancy (assuming Major Spell Focus is actually Epic Spell Focus).

10 - Base
+9 - Heighten to L9
+3 - Magister School Specialist
+3 - Spell Focus + Greater Spell Focus + Epic Spell Focus
+2 - Greater Spell Focus item
+1 - Lich (obviously I am calculating for Necromancy)
+1 - Wizard PL
+1 - Major Spell Focus item (Exists for necromancy, see u14 items thread)
+25 - 60 INT Drow
-----------
Total DC 55
+5 for 20 seconds once every 4 minutes

[BruceTheHoon]

+2 exceptional ability bonuses are being changed into +2 insight bonuses. Insight bonuses do not stack, so the total intelligence sum is off by 2 because of that.

[Urjak]

i think shades calc is nearly correct:

missing:
+2 int completionist
+1 int Greater Int epic feat (you get 2 epic feats )
+1 int from epic augment (those are now competence not exceptional)
+1 dc from spellsinger

10 - Base
+9 - Heighten to L9
+3 - Magister School Specialist
+3 - Spell Focus + Greater Spell Focus + Epic Spell Focus
+3 - Major Spell Focus item
+1 - Lich (obviously I am calculating for Necromancy)
+1 - Wizard PL
= 30 + 28 (67 INT) = 58 max MAINTAINABLE DC
+5 - Arcane spellsurge (innate magister ability)
+1 - Spellsinger
= 36
-------------
+36 - 80 INT ( Drow)
---------------
Total absolute max DC71 (for 20 seconds)


Intelligence Calculations
20 - Base
+6 - Level-ups
+3 - Enhancements
+8 - Item (Available in lootgen and many named items)
+1 - Exceptional (ToD Ring)
+2 - Wizard Capstone
+2 - Lich Form
+6 - Magister Intelligence I-VI
+1 - Profane from Litany (assuming +3 insight will be available on other new items as well)
+4 - Inherent (Tome)
+3 - Insight (apparently some items in the expansion drop Insight bonus types)
+2 - Guild Shrine
+3 - twist in 3 int from Draconic Incarnation
+2 - Yugoloth Potion
+2 - Completionist
+1 - Greater Intelligence
+1 - Competence from epic Augment ... if it hasn't changed, in closed beta 4 epic augments gave competence
----------------------------------------
67 somewhat maintainable
+2 - Store Potion (situational)
+4 - Profane from Abishai cookies (situational) (This actaully does stack with litany, its not really typed as profane)
+3 - House D Alchemical (situational)
+4 - Inspire Excellence from a Bard
-------------------------------
80 INT absolut maximum possible

Maybe 79, as i think +3 insight so far is trinket only => no litany

REALISTIC FIRST LIFE WIZ:

10 - Base
+9 - Heighten to L9
+3 - Magister School Specialist
+3 - Spell Focus + Greater Spell Focus + Epic Spell Focus
+3 - Major Spell Focus item
+1 - Lich (obviously I am calculating for Necromancy)
= 29 + 25 (61 INT) = 54 max MAINTAINABLE DC
+5 - Arcane spellsurge (innate magister ability)
= 59
-------------
Short time max DC 60 (for 20 seconds)


Intelligence Calculations
18 - Base - human
+6 - Level-ups
+1 - human
+3 - Enhancements
+8 - Item (Available in lootgen and many named items)
+1 - Exceptional
+2 - Wizard Capstone
+2 - Lich Form
+6 - Magister Intelligence I-VI
+3 - Inherent (Tome)
+3 - Insight (apparently some items in the expansion drop Insight bonus types)
+2 - Guild Shrine
+3 - twist in 3 int from Draconic Incarnation
+2 - Yugoloth Potion
+1 - Competence from epic Augment ... if it hasn't changed, in closed beta 4 epic augments gave competence
----------------------------------------
61 somewhat maintainable

CONCLUSION
when looking at those dcs:
realistic: 54
max maintainable: 58
abs. max: 71

this worries me a bit ... I mean those uber-elitist guilds that will be able to get all those expensive short term boosts will have up to 66 dc (with 71 spike for 20 sec), while most people will be around 54 dc ... thats a kinda big gap ... just saying^^

[Alavatar]

+2 exceptional ability bonuses are being changed into +2 insight bonuses. Insight bonuses do not stack, so the total intelligence sum is off by 2 because of that.

Okie dokie. Updated my numbers.

[legendlore]

+3 - Exceptional (ToD Ring)

+3 - Insight (apparently some items in the expansion drop Insight bonus types)

+1 Competence from epic Augment ... if it hasn't changed, in closed beta 4 epic augments gave competence

+4 - Inspire Excellence from a Bard

Currently these don't stack

Exceptional +1 is a competence bonus, just like augment and bard song so only highest (+4 for bard) applies.

Exeptional +2 is now an insight bonus and don't stack with the new +3 insight gear.

so the total should be 78

[DeafeningWhisper]

+1 int Greater Int epic feat (you get 2 epic feats )

Yeah, just 2 thou so it's either this or epic focus.

[Urjak]

Yeah, just 2 thou so it's either this or epic focus.

yup .... i assumed to take:
1xEpic Necro Focus
1xGreater Int

[tinyelvis]

I'll take a quick stab, probably missing several things, but can improve on your figures quite a bit:

10 - Base
+9 - Heighten to L9
+3 - Magister School Specialist
+3 - Spell Focus + Greater Spell Focus + Epic Spell Focus
+2 - Greater Spell Focus item
+1 - Lich (obviously I am calculating for Necromancy)
+1 - Wizard PL
+1 - Major Spell Focus item (Exists for necromancy, see u14 items thread)
= 30
+5 - Arcane spellsurge (innate magister ability)
= + 35
-------------
+34 - 78 INT ( Drow)
---------------
Total DC69 (for 20 seconds)
DC 64 - Sorta sustainable, tho very costly

Intelligence Calculations
20 - Base
+6 - Level-ups
+3 - Enhancements
+8 - Item (Available in lootgen and many named items)
+3 - Exceptional (ToD Ring)
+2 - Wizard Capstone
+2 - Lich Form
+6 - Magister Intelligence I-VI
+1 - Profane from Litany
+4 - Inherent (Tome)
+3 - Insight (apparently some items in the expansion drop Insight bonus types)
+2 - Guild Shrine
+2 - Yugoloth Potion
+2 - Store Potion (situational)
+4 - Profane from Abishai cookies (situational) (This actaully does stack with litany, its not really typed as profane)
+3 - House D Alchemical (situational)
-------------------------------
+3 - twist in 3 int from Draconic Incarnation
+4 - Inspire Excellence from a Bard
= 78 INT
Maybe 76, as the +3 Insight may not stack with a ToD rings +2, unconfirmed.

Also note:
Necromancy is one of the lowest possible schools for DC.
Evocation can get a ton higher, as several better twists exist, and +3 from PLs.
Conjuration even higher then Evocation, as same as evocation twists, +3 PL and +1 from Epic Abishai Robe.

I'm not using this for any arguement towards nerfing casters.

I did use it once towards BUFFING epic elite monster saves. A very positive use of this data imo.

Did you add +3 focus item (in new content) and account for +8 intelligence item.

[Shade]

I saw the Major Spell Focus on the Staff of Necromancy, but I am confused by it. What is it? Normally, on an item, Spell Focus = +1, Greater Spell Focus = +2, Epic Spell Focus = +3 (see Epic Robe/Docent of the Diabolist).

It's not that confusing. They are changing the definition of epic this patch from "Something for the best of the best" to "meaningless".

So the renamed the effect. New:
Regular = 1
Greater = 2
Major = 3
There is no epic, it was renamed major.

But, what is reasonably sustainable? I propose

I propose that this topic is beyond the scope of this thread. Whats sustainable varys from player to player and from situation to situation. The top elite player can get the vast majority of that and maintain 60+ DC though easily, so balancing the hardest quests against it wouldn't be unreasonable. Especially considering necromancy is as I said, one of the lowest possible DCs schools.

[Shade]

Did you add +3 focus item (in new content) and account for +8 intelligence item.

???????????????????????????????????

[irivan]

These posts are so unbelievabley far from realistic it is not even funny.

My first gripe is the Cookie Buff, not only limited amounts available, but limited when you can pick them, and also provided the bonus doesnt change when they change cookies around like they always have.

Second gripe is house D pots, insanely shory duration, no guarantee you will even pull the pot you want when you do the turn in, and you could spend your entire life grinding for Chapbooks trying to some how come up with enough to make it matter. I have 11 at the moment, and I am saving them for some crazy insane moment when it is life or death, like win or my Character gets deleted or something.

Third, no one has seen the +8 items and I am not sure how the slot will work, I am also certain that the +3 insight Item will not Stack with at least 2 on the Tod ring.

Fourth I found that the best use of your Twist, is not to slot intel from another Destiney, because there are other powers that serve interesting utility, like echos of the ancients and a couple of others, but hey i guess that is just me.

Fifth most casters do not have a +4 tome, they just dont, In all of the runs that I have done of TOD, hundreds by now, I have seen exactly 2, one of which My caster was lucky enough to get. But having on is crazy rare, and +3 is more likely to be the real reality on the street.

In any event, I think what we will mostly see is 58 intel, or 56, most likely 56 because people will not want to spend Turbine Points on the intel pot.

Yes the total max is super high, but so is Barb strength when you start adding in all of the unsustainable, unachievable factors, like Barbs with over 100 strenght, it just isnt real or sustainable.

[Alavatar]

I propose that this topic is beyond the scope of this thread. Whats sustainable varys from player to player and from situation to situation. The top elite player can get the vast majority of that and maintain 60+ DC though easily, so balancing the hardest quests against it wouldn't be unreasonable. Especially considering necromancy is as I said, one of the lowest possible DCs schools.

It is absolutely within the scope of this thread. We have two calculations already that basically say that a reasonable and sustainable DC is between DC 54 and DC 58 for Necromancy.

Your calculations include:

• Store Potions (how many people use these every day?)
• Abishai Cookies (not dependable as they may change and/or run out)
• House D Alchemy (5 minutes? And not at all common).
• Twisting in +3 Intelligence (potential for "ideal" builds to not include this Twist)

That's 12 INT that should not be factored in when determining what is a reasonable expectation for a Wizard to have.



Additionally, Greater INT+1 may also not be considered for "ideal" builds. It is also completely unreasonable to expect a Wizard to have Completionist, so that is another 2 INT that should not be included for factoring a reasonably sustainable DC.


I am sure a couple other factors are debatable. I stand by the assertion that a reasonable, sustainable Necromancy DC is between DC 54 and DC 58 once the Expansion goes live. Higher for Evocation and Conjuration.

[Shade]

• Store Potions (how many people use these every day?)
• Abishai Cookies (not dependable as they may change and/or run out)
• House D Alchemy (5 minutes? And not at all common).
• Twisting in +3 Intelligence (potential for "ideal" builds to not include this Twist)

That's 12 INT that should not be factored in when determining what is a reasonable expectation for a Wizard to have.

Personally I have 100 of each abishai cookie. Many players like me do. They have worked the same way for over a year. Stop with the pointless speculation, elite players can and do maintain these, the buff lasts 10 minutes and activate regardless of what the inidividual cookies themselves do.

Store pots ? not me, but there are a couple alternate sources of them that dont require ddo points.

Alchemy ponts, eh back in the day I maintained these throughout entire shroud elites, i tend not to anymore as i care less about insta kills, but it is possible.

The other bit, ok sure lets be wimpy and not use twists on offense, and lets slack on it and lose 8 int, -4 dc:

Even if you took 4 dc off my calcs, you can still maintain 60.

64 -4 = 60.
If insight doesnt stack = 59, but we can take a spellsong to get back to 60 again. And still have the 65 burst available. or 67/68 in some cases when we do have all those potions available.

Plus we havent seen the new raid loot yet either. Could be some more in there.

You can also reasonably expect to group up with favored souls, whichi is essentially the same as +2 DCs for everyone in the grp due to there aura long as you stay together and work as a team.

[irivan]

Personally I have 100 of each abishai cookie. Many players like me do. They have worked the same way for over a year. Stop with the pointless speculation, elite players can and do maintain these, the buff lasts 10 minutes and activate regardless of what the inidividual cookies themselves do.

Store pots ? not me, but there are a couple alternate sources of them that dont require ddo points.

Alchemy ponts, eh back in the day I maintained these throughout entire shroud elites, i tend not to anymore as i care less about insta kills, but it is possible.

The other bit, ok sure lets be wimpy and not use twists on offense, and lets slack on it and lose 8 int, -4 dc:

Even if you took 4 dc off my calcs, you can still maintain 60.

64 -4 = 60.
If insight doesnt stack = 59, but we can take a spellsong to get back to 60 again. And still have the 65 burst available. or 67/68 in some cases when we do have all those potions available.

Plus we havent seen the new raid loot yet either. Could be some more in there.

You can also reasonably expect to group up with favored souls, whichi is essentially the same as +2 DCs for everyone in the grp due to there aura long as you stay together and work as a team.

You are so full of it. Really 100? How many turbine point deals with other players did you make to get that? How much plat did you spend to buy them from other players or off the AH? How much plat did you buy with real money from farmers to get the plat to make the deals?

Are you freaking kidding me, no one other than you has 100 of each cookie, and if they do, they did what you did with the plat vendors and the real money swaps.

I have 6 right now that I am saving for a rainy day, SIX.

Yeah every one has these right Shade?

Give us all a break.

Yeah, and they only way you are getting those alchemy pots consistently is to pay a Farmer real cash to get them, or spend all of your game time farming them. And I Know, I farmed the hell out of Delirium on Elite for these trying get them for a good week, and I gave up, the payoff is not big enough, and you get the stupid merchant list thing way to much. And even when you do get the Chapbook, you only have about 15% chance of actually pulling the pot you want.

Please enlighten us also on how you get the Store pot without actually using the store or using cash or turbine points.

Yes, and there are other twists that are attractive, like personally one that I want will be the 4% mana buff from exalted angel, echos of the ancient for the +_1 dc and UMD, and I havent figured out which tier 4 I want, but maybe I will look at the one you pointed out in the DC thread, but I also don't remember it working quite like that.

Just like I said before, there is no limit to the amount of embellishment you are willing to do in order to make your points. And even if they are true for you, then you are a better man than me, because even though I spend way to much of time playing this game and being pretty good at it, I cant, and wont go to the extremes that you must have to achieve these things.

Personally I consider myself to be one of the most hardcore DDO-ites out there, with a fantastic wizard character who has achieved many notable things, but the scenario you are suggesting would put you not just in elite status, but maybe unique status. Of course that is what you want everyone to think, and its just not the case.