60+ dc

[danotmano1998]

That's 12 INT that should not be factored in when determining what is a reasonable expectation for a Wizard to have.

Agreed. I love when players who have everything and have for years come to the forums to determine a "reasonable" calculation.

It's painfully obvious that reasonable is based entirely on the viewer, and that disparity can be HUGE.

Shade, I propose you play the game like a casual player for a while and then come back to these forums and look at what you've wrote. You are almost completely out of touch with what the "average" player experience is, that is quite obvious from nearly every one of your posts.


THIS is what I would consider "reasonable"

Intelligence Calculations
20 - Base
+6 - Level-ups
+3 - Enhancements
+6 - Item (Available in lootgen and many named items)
+2 - Exceptional (ToD Ring)
+2 - Wizard Capstone
+2 - Lich Form
+6 - Magister Intelligence I-VI
+2 - Inherent (Tome)
+2 - Insight (apparently some items in the expansion drop Insight bonus types)
+2 - Guild Shrine
-------------------------------
+3 - twist in 3 int from Draconic Incarnation
= 56 INT

[Alavatar]

Personally I have 100 of each abishai cookie. Many players like me do. They have worked the same way for over a year. Stop with the pointless speculation, elite players can and do maintain these, the buff lasts 10 minutes and activate regardless of what the inidividual cookies themselves do.

And once again you start using insults as part of your rebuttal thinking that it adds credibility.

I do know some people that have stashes of cookies. I do not know anyone that has been frequently using them, even when we were learning ELoB. If it isn't (a) readily available and/or (b) frequently in use it shouldn't be considered as reasonable to expect.

Store pots ? not me, but there are a couple alternate sources of them that dont require ddo points.

I do not know anyone that uses Store Pots for any reason other than either "I want to see how awesome it would be on this run to have the max possible stat". I used to see a very rare few use it in EChrono back in the day when they were CCing as a Sorcerer, but that was it. If it isn't (a) readily available and/or (b) frequently in use it shouldn't be considered as reasonable to expect.

Alchemy ponts, eh back in the day I maintained these throughout entire shroud elites, i tend not to anymore as i care less about insta kills, but it is possible.

If it isn't (a) readily available and/or (b) frequently in use it shouldn't be considered as reasonable to expect. I don't know anyone that uses these for anything other than "Screenshot that awesomely high stat."

The other bit, ok sure lets be wimpy and not use twists on offense, and lets slack on it and lose 8 int, -4 dc:

Even if you took 4 dc off my calcs, you can still maintain 60.

64 -4 = 60.
If insight doesnt stack = 59, but we can take a spellsong to get back to 60 again. And still have the 65 burst available. or 67/68 in some cases when we do have all those potions available.

Your calc (and mine, unfortunately) has the assumption that +3 Insight can be used at the same time as Litany (so far +3 Insight is only found on Trinkets). Additionally, the +1 Exceptional has apparently been changed to Competence, which does not stack with Inspire Excellence. So, that is another 4 INT off your calc (mine is off by a bit more). But, then again, you also do not have Completionist (thankfully). That brings your calculation down to DC 58. Less after we take off the a little more for not using Abishai Cookies.

We are at the point where the maximum INT a player can reasonably be expected to sustain without using seasonal items, super rare items, or TP items is around DC 56. Sure, it is possible to get above that through the use of Short-term buffs such as the aforementioned seasonal items, super rare items, TP items, Completionist, Twisting in other ED, etc.

But, lets be reasonable here.

[Kirlian]

Hm... I need to get Math running some quests again... I almost forgot what doest it mean to have decent DC...

[DeafeningWhisper]

Whats sustainable varys from player to player and from situation to situation.

Completely agree.

The top elite player can get the vast majority of that and maintain 60+ DC though easily, so balancing the hardest quests against it wouldn't be unreasonable. Especially considering necromancy is as I said, one of the lowest possible DCs schools.

So, while sustainability varies from player to player EVERYONE should be nerfed because of the top of the line elites?

Don't try to force your values upon others, especially by asking for nerfs. Thats just uncaring.

GFT

[irivan]

Agreed. I love when players who have everything and have for years come to the forums to determine a "reasonable" calculation.

It's painfully obvious that reasonable is based entirely on the viewer, and that disparity can be HUGE.

Shade, I propose you play the game like a casual player for a while and then come back to these forums and look at what you've wrote. You are almost completely out of touch with what the "average" player experience is, that is quite obvious from nearly every one of your posts.


THIS is what I would consider "reasonable"

No what makes him so full of it is, that I am one of those payers that have been playing forever, longer than him, I have logged many more hours, 20X the completions, raids, epics you name it, my caster has every piece of conceivable epic caster and raid loot available. And I cannot reproduce what he is talking about without completely depleting my resources. Things like Cookies, Alch pots, store pots, etc...that is absolute rainy day kind of ****, and it is not something you run around popping like a soda from the local five and dime, or you will run out quickly.

I am getting so used to the disparity that he posts about what is possible vs what is real. Dude and those like him need to take a step back and re-evaluate.

[sweez]

But, lets be reasonable here.

That's a good one

[CoasterHops]

Anyone thinking even a 60 DC is sustainable at end game for anything bar a few players who have everything is kidding themselves.

Straight fact.

Some people have agendas for pushing this as high as possible, but come on people put a realistic view on it for once.

[Shade]

Shade, I propose you play the game like a casual player for a while and then come back to these forums and look at what you've wrote. You are almost completely out of touch with what the "average" player experience is, that is quite obvious from nearly every one of your posts.

I propose you keep my post in context.

I SPECIFICALLY said I was talking about Epic Elite. A mode designed for the most advanced, most highly skilled players - says so itself right on the newly updated tooltip.

I'm well aware of the limitation of "casual" players, and the fact they should NEVER enter this mode.

Plus the terms inaccurate. I've been called a casual player quite often recently. For a long time I considered myself one. It can refer to those who don't play often. And you certainly do not need to play this game often to hit the maximum levels of DCs, it simply does not take that long to do.

Aaside from my activity in the beta, for the last 6 months or so I played it exactly twice a week, only 2-3 hours a night, and my sorcer got maxxed out in a few months playing like that. Given it takes years and years for the new "max" to increase, its not hard for a "casual" player to attain this of he plays a while.

Average player? New player?
Ab****ely. But thats what casual, normal and hard modes are for.

I consider myself extremely well in tuned with what your lower skilled/newer players face. I help them constantly all the time with my various guides, answering PMs here and on my youtube account and, I take EVERYONE on my raids with only minor gear reqs for epic raids. I constantly provide feedback to help balance the game on all difficulty modes. Just today I sent a PM to madfloyd actually asking him to make some of the quests easier on epic normal (and harder on EE). I don't appreciate the claim otherwise. I do care about everyone who plays this game and not only the hardcore.

[derping]

I think the problem here is what different people define as sustainable. If you have 100 cookies in your inventory and you are willing to use them then that is fully sustainable for as long as he has supply lasts, however if you have 5 then it will not last you long.

You cannot argue that because you do not have Shade's definition of sustainability that his calculations are too high. Because most of the items and effects that he uses can be sustained with resources, for the entire duration of however long the new raid is, or whatever epic elite quest you are attempting to do.

The best casters want the best DCs, especially now that haunting is reverted, and if they are willing to use resources to sustain it then it still would be the maximum possible DC to be expected, there is no point to deducting values off his DC calculations when it can be achieved, can every player get to this DC? Of course not, but can some players get to this DC? They can and they will

[Savellys]

Here's my math, i don't know yet the stuff about insight/exceptional, but i think it will gimme 1 more int(3 insight and 1 competence, something like it)
so, my wizard PM have all the DC stuff and the PLs(i just haven't completionist) and i can take DC 45, just with amrath potion/guild buff, not counting ddstore, bard song, etc... and i have INT 50

so with the epic lvl i'll gain:
+1 int at lvl 24
+2 feats(epic focus and +1 int)
Magister:
+5 int
+3 DC

New equips:
+1 int from insghit/competence stuff(not sure)
+1 int from +8 item
+1 DC major focus


Here's +10 int and +5 DC, giving me +10 DC, so my normal DC will be 55.... maybe it'll change 1~2, but the full equiped wizard will get it by their own without expansive potions and 10 secs boosts etc

[Skavenaps]

The top elite player can get the vast majority of that and maintain 60+ DC though easily, so balancing the hardest quests against it wouldn't be unreasonable.

it would be totally unreasonable. epic elite its not for the 0,001% from the game. start understanding that.

game never will be balanced arround the most powergamer. never.

[Shade]

it would be totally unreasonable. epic elite its not for the 0,001% from the game. start understanding that.

I'm not asking for it to be. The top 10% perhaps, and I think the current version may indeed be well scaled for that.

Also, even if the saves were balanced so nothing would ever land, wizards and sorcs would still be an extremely valuable class to have on said mode, and the quests would still be beaten without issue. They have such a vast aray of powerful no save spells that some strong fort saves certainly wont slow them down. Not players skilled enough for epic elite.

game never will be balanced arround the most powergamer. never.

It certainly was for the first 3 years of release. We may never go back to that time, but some of us can always remember and reflect back on those happy times.

Plus much of the content on the top modes continues to be. If only raids atm. But I believe Epic elite will improve that.

Plus epic cas/norm/hard will greatly improve the availability of content and loot for the non-power gamers.

IMO it's a win-win having all these new modes.

Epic fun for everyone.

[Malky]

Plus epic cas/norm/hard will greatly improve the availability of content and loot for the non-power gamers.

IMO it's a win-win having all these new modes.

Epic fun for everyone.

A lot of the recent changes seem to share the same objective : more possible choices. I like it.

[Stillwaters]

Guys be careful where you are going with this thread.

THIS

Anyone thinking even a 60 DC is sustainable at end game for anything bar a few players who have everything is kidding themselves.

Straight fact.

Some people have agendas for pushing this as high as possible, but come on people put a realistic view on it for once.

plus this

CONCLUSION
when looking at those dcs:
realistic: 54
max maintainable: 58
abs. max: 71

this worries me a bit ... I mean those uber-elitist guilds that will be able to get all those expensive short term boosts will have up to 66 dc (with 71 spike for 20 sec), while most people will be around 54 dc ... thats a kinda big gap ... just saying^^

is the reason diminishing returns just hit AC/Tohit!!!

Elite will be elite, they will have all the buffs and things BECAUSE THEY WORKED TO GET THEM!

What really $#its me, is that we have ELITE difficulty for these ELITE players, if you dont have all the stuff NORMAL is available for NORMAL players!!!

This **** about "whoa is me im a casual gamer and cannot possibly play without Turbine changing the game mechanics to help me" is STUPID!
One of my best mates is a casual gamer, guess what.. he plays casual/normal/hard, not elite.

[Demsac]

Did they change insight bonus on tod rings? Wasn't stacking with +3 insight, and bard song Wasn't stacking with the +1 from a tod ring.

Ah about tod rings, op changed his but shade didn't!

Back to op! Litany and abishai cookies did stack on live, did they change this on lam?

I'll go answer myself after lam is done updating.

[oweieie]

Personally I have 100 of each abishai cookie.

Come back to us in 17 hours when you're out of cookies and tell us how sustainable it is. That's one weekend of binge playing.

Store pots ? not me, but there are a couple alternate sources of them that dont require ddo points.

Yeah, I've won 15 in over a year in the lotteries. On the wrong character. Not even vaguely sustainable without spending points. By spending points you're looking at about $2/hour. So your 17 hour cookie monster session this weekend will cost you an extra $30 for the potions. Not sustainable for the vast majority of players.

Alchemy ponts, eh back in the day I maintained these throughout entire shroud elites, i tend not to anymore as i care less about insta kills, but it is possible.

I have 20 chapbooks across my toons, including my completionist, each of which is a 25% chance of getting a +3 int. There is a whopping 1 more on the AH. So for several years of play I've managed to get 20 * 25% * 1 minute duration... 5 minutes worth of +3 alchemical pots in several years of heavy play.

Yeah, pretty ****ing sustainable right there. Either devs where hurling chapbooks at you by the cart load or you're lying your ass off if you claim you were sustaining +3s through your shroud elites.

[MRMechMan]

Come back to us in 17 hours when you're out of cookies and tell us how sustainable it is. That's one weekend of binge playing.



Yeah, I've won 15 in over a year in the lotteries. On the wrong character. Not even vaguely sustainable without spending points. By spending points you're looking at about $2/hour. So your 17 hour cookie monster session this weekend will cost you an extra $30 for the potions. Not sustainable for the vast majority of players.



I have 20 chapbooks across my toons, including my completionist, each of which is a 25% chance of getting a +3 int. There is a whopping 1 more on the AH. So for several years of play I've managed to get 20 * 25% * 1 minute duration... 5 minutes worth of +3 alchemical pots in several years of heavy play.

Yeah, pretty ****ing sustainable right there. Either devs where hurling chapbooks at you by the cart load or you're lying your ass off if you claim you were sustaining +3s through your shroud elites.

Most of that stuff is "sustainable if the world is ending in 1hr".

Elite players keep them in their inventory and whip them out for screenshots and the occasional epic raid where the party is struggling.

Or for just staring at them and calculating their max DC, then posting on the forum. I really hope a dev doesn't balance ANYTHING for a 65 or 70 insta DC. A 50 DC is then useless.

I hope instakills don't go the way AC went/is going-the dreaded d100, where 1 DC is another .5% chance to wail a mob. Adding in such a big gap between the geared/storepot users/abishai munchers/epic lvl25 magisters with 70 buffed DC and the level20 decently geared 45-50 DC could be trouble down the road.

[Thrudh]

Personally I have 100 of each abishai cookie. Many players like me do.

No one cares what the 30 people who are "like you" do. Nothing should ever be balanced around people "like you".

You win ddo.

If you're bored, go play something else.

You worked hard so nothing is a challenge anymore. Congratulations. Now enjoy your invincibility or go away, please.

[KillEveryone]

Guys be careful where you are going with this thread.

THIS



plus this



is the reason diminishing returns just hit AC/Tohit!!!

Elite will be elite, they will have all the buffs and things BECAUSE THEY WORKED TO GET THEM!

What really $#its me, is that we have ELITE difficulty for these ELITE players, if you dont have all the stuff NORMAL is available for NORMAL players!!!

This **** about "whoa is me im a casual gamer and cannot possibly play without Turbine changing the game mechanics to help me" is STUPID!
One of my best mates is a casual gamer, guess what.. he plays casual/normal/hard, not elite.

Store pots should not be expected to be used in questing. If you need that store pot to complete the quest, then what is to stop turbine from creating other quests to get that absolute DC needed AND require you to get your stuff from the store?

Abashi cookies are newer cookies...last year I think. They may or may not be here next year. They may change what they do. Some cookies will change this Festivus, some won't. They are also seasonal, in that you can only get them once/twice a year and it require you to be lucky to get the ones you need with...last I knew...white being the most rare. I farmed out coins last time around and I've only got 20 sets. Even still, since they are seasonal and in limited supply, it would be bad design to balance epic content around these cookies. If they change the cookies but didn't adjust epic elite then we just got screwed because someone decides that their abudance of cookies is the norm and Turbine listened to them.

I work for my stuff also but that doesn't mean I'm successful in getting my stuff. A lot of it is luck in what drops in your name.

I don't mind a challange but I don't want to spend TP to complete a quest and I don't care for seasonal items to be included in the balance since they are not always here. I also don't like the idea that content would be balanced around a pot that is a very short term buff. I would say that most players would not have the abundence of pots that a few would have and I don't believe for one second that there are more than a handful of players that can keep up the house D pots for each and every epic quest for the entire duration of such a quest. Their supply would dwindle quickly. I would not mind having a few encounters that require such a pot, at least I'd be able to pot before hitting the encounter or have a different work around for such an encounter, but that is different than having the entire quest balanced around that pot. These short term pots require you to be lucky to get the collectible that you need to get that pot and I feel to balance content around such luck is bad design.

[Emili]

Just a note ToD rings are now
+1 competence
+2 insight

But Epic slots still exist for
+1 exceptional?

+3 insight drops easily in new content likewise +8 enchantment items

add in profane bonus and wearable stat is +14 maybe 13 if slots changed?.

Rest is all enhancement + inherit + ed etc... +3 tome would be common and +4 normal for a powergamer.

Guys be careful where you are going with this thread.

THIS



plus this



is the reason diminishing returns just hit AC/Tohit!!!

Elite will be elite, they will have all the buffs and things BECAUSE THEY WORKED TO GET THEM!

What really $#its me, is that we have ELITE difficulty for these ELITE players, if you dont have all the stuff NORMAL is available for NORMAL players!!!

This **** about "whoa is me im a casual gamer and cannot possibly play without Turbine changing the game mechanics to help me" is STUPID!
One of my best mates is a casual gamer, guess what.. he plays casual/normal/hard, not elite.

Here's the thing... and am not going to elaborate too much, but people who think ELITE is out of thier reach "lack the will to take and do what they want." quoting Cinnis.

Fact being however is that the difference between the geared and the ungeared in questing is strategy and speed... there is nothing stopping one from PLAYING and completing elite ... just happens to be easier and quicker on geared up builds, when not then play by play tactics just change slowing one down.

The people who whine - BUT I CAN'T DO! ... well if ya a quiter and don't place any effort, then ya, but be intelligent and take on the challenge and work it out, play arround it, you will succeed is just how it is.