Why?

[auntjobiska]

I need to know this.

Why does Turbine frequently go back on the caster 'nerfs' (ie HTK > Haunting > Wail nerf) ,but never seems to move on the melee ones (AC, Kensai stacking)?

AJ (Idiot Extraordinare)

[Jay203]

I need to know this.

Why does Turbine frequently go back on the caster 'nerfs' (ie HTK > Haunting > Wail nerf) ,but never seems to move on the melee ones (AC, Kensai stacking)?

AJ (Idiot Extraordinare)

because the caster-players are a lot more aggressive in their "pleads"

[auntjobiska]

Oh.

OK. I guess I should have known that.

AJ (Idiot Extraordinaire)

[Dolphious]

Melee nerfs have been rolled back, e.g. madstone boot nerf. *shrug* I guess it's just quantity of outrage.

I think turbine got a lot of flack in the past for "never listening to players" even though they did listen, they just made changes based on the quality of the feedback rather than quantity. As a PR move they decided to change a few things based simply on quantity of outrage, so they would gain a reputation for "listening to the players."

There are really only a few types of toons that have enough players (that use the forums) to generate the type of outrage required though: Wizards, sorcerers, favored souls, and "melee" in aggregate (not enough of any one type really though).

It can be frustrating, I'm still pretty annoyed that we ever even got an explanation for why displacement (one of the most useful bard spells) took a huge nerf, but c'est la vie, the groups with the numbers get the attention.

[PopeJual]

Turbine went back on the HtK/Haunting nerfs because they were both terrible ideas.

They're not going back on the AC nerf to player attacks because that's fundamental to how they want the game to work. They want poorly geared players to do better than they currently do and they want uber geared players to do less well than they currently do. I'm not sure why that is, but they have said that is their goal (and they've said it repeatedly).

[arkonas]

stop thinking everything is a nerf and doooom. some of the changes are needed. do you honestly think melee have a good time running through a quest when the caster fingers/implodes everything? hell no. i dont care how geared out a melee is. their not going to enjoy it if they cant use their toys as well.

[Masadique]

Melee just aren't as weak. Think about it this way, a melee player already knows he's going to be a lot less powerful in most content. He has come to terms with this and accepted that his job is to quietly make sure it all works - like a healer or a bard or anyone not a caster. So, when we get a little nerf, we take it, deal with it, and adapt. We are a much more durable and versatile group of players.

Then you have the casters. They are used to being on the top of the heap. They do not understand how to deal with change. They fear being less powerful than they are currently. At the end of the day, they are weaker where it counts.

Thus one group cries and screams like a child when change comes along while the other rides out the storm.



Who am I kidding? In closed beta I've never been so ashamed to be a melee lover. So many people complaining about every little thing that happened. The casters in open beta are much more numerous than melee, and they view everything as a nerf. I'm pretty sure that if Feather told us he would be giving casters passive SP regen, they would find a way to moan. It's really just the forums though, not any certain group of players.

V, the disappointed

[Xezrak]

Melee just aren't as weak. Think about it this way, a melee player already knows he's going to be a lot less powerful in most content. He has come to terms with this and accepted that his job is to quietly make sure it all works - like a healer or a bard or anyone not a caster. So, when we get a little nerf, we take it, deal with it, and adapt. We are a much more durable and versatile group of players.

Then you have the casters. They are used to being on the top of the heap. They do not understand how to deal with change. They fear being less powerful than they are currently. At the end of the day, they are weaker where it counts.

Thus one group cries and screams like a child when change comes along while the other rides out the storm.



Who am I kidding? In closed beta I've never been so ashamed to be a melee lover. So many people complaining about every little thing that happened. The casters in open beta are much more numerous than melee, and they view everything as a nerf. I'm pretty sure that if Feather told us he would be giving casters passive SP regen, they would find a way to moan. It's really just the forums though, not any certain group of players.

V, the disappointed

I doubt that melees have come to terms with being less powerful, in fact its because melees have been complaining that casters are OP that the caster nerfs are coming around, prior to this update there were numerous threads complaining about casters from melee players.

I am not saying their complaints are warrented but there have been complaints

[EarlofPain]

Melee's with the exception of monks are worthless to the point of being replaced by summons. If we could take hires into raids we could find one with a good intimidate and have him tank the boss while the casters can unload spells. If they gave stopped preventing hold monster from working we wouldn't even need the hire or a summon. What's the point of nerfing a class that is only played by people new to the game?

[Masadique]

I doubt that melees have come to terms with being less powerful, in fact its because melees have been complaining that casters are OP that the caster nerfs are coming around, prior to this update there were numerous threads complaining about casters from melee players.

I am not saying their complaints are warrented but there have been complaints

You, um, didn't read the whole post, did you? Read the end of it if you would be so kind. Essentially, forum users are a whiny lot.

V

[Jitty]

They have gone back on melee nerfs

Eg.
Madstone boots nerf
changing kensi 2 to psionic bonus so it stacks with insightful stats

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias


I have come up with 2 melee nerfs that were reversed after player feedback. You have come up with 1 caster one (and arguably they are still nerfing wail). I challenge you to come up with 2 more

[Xezrak]

You, um, didn't read the whole post, did you? Read the end of it if you would be so kind. Essentially, forum users are a whiny lot.

V

I did read it, wasn't exactly clear to me if you were implying the melees were also complainers, and I don't think casters are being over represented in these forums at all, I remember the last few months before the expansion so many threads were calling for caster nerfs, and many of those melee posters are quite vocal.

But yes I agree with you lots of complaints all around, oh well as long as in the long run it makes for a more balanced and fun game...

[tinyelvis]

Perhaps if folks who play melee toons payed more attention in class and spent less time doodling on their desk tops maybe kensai stacking would still be with us. All kidding aside, its the same reason the Neanderthal went extinct.

[Vellrad]

stop thinking everything is a nerf and doooom. some of the changes are needed. do you honestly think melee have a good time running through a quest when the caster fingers/implodes everything? hell no. i dont care how geared out a melee is. their not going to enjoy it if they cant use their toys as well.

Yeah, because spamming haste, rage and mass hold, and hearing from barbs how we all can be proud to be their personal ******* was so fun.

[Forzah]

Yeah, because spamming haste, rage and mass hold, and hearing from barbs how we all can be proud to be their personal ******* was so fun.

Don't lie! You also sometimes used mass invis, firewall and greater heroism

[irivan]

Exactly, and I wont be that player ever again.

Turbine has some serious work to do to get this right, all of that work is back side AI work with their mobs, and their behavior.

Nerfs are not the answer.

[Forzah]

Exactly, and I wont be that player ever again.

Turbine has some serious work to do to get this right, all of that work is back side AI work with their mobs, and their behavior.

Nerfs are not the answer.

It would be awesome when mobs could intercept kiting casters, and trip or stun them. The current AI is too stupid to make predictions; even a linear prediction about the players future position would help a lot. For instance, I know that I have to aim in front of a running enemy to trip him when he's walking by. The AI would aim straight at him, and miss.

[Jay203]

Exactly, and I wont be that player ever again.

Turbine has some serious work to do to get this right, all of that work is back side AI work with their mobs, and their behavior.

Nerfs are not the answer.

and buffs should not be the answer as well
i agree better AI would greatly improve the game, but the chances of that is quite low to be honest

[Emili]

There are reasons I have least one of every class in the game... there are also reasons I solo most everything outside a raid.

I will tell you this up front however... If you play a great melee you catch my eye, and when you play a great caster ... well you're like 'bout like most average players. I know it sounds bias but it really is not, It takes a lot more to play with less and is easier to learn to play with more.

One thing I do not think I ever told Jay203 before... his boycott of GS and power-creep in general, I truely understood... and in view of it all he plays with less and is one hell of a great player in DDO.

They have gone back on melee nerfs

Eg.
Madstone boots nerf
changing kensi 2 to psionic bonus so it stacks with insightful stats

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias


I have come up with 2 melee nerfs that were reversed after player feedback. You have come up with 1 caster one (and arguably they are still nerfing wail). I challenge you to come up with 2 more

I did not agree with the first two proposed caster nerfs... I still do not agree with the Kensei nerf as that does indeed push that class back to second string melee in areas. Anyway, there were plenty of complaints all around on every side... i.e. WoP's, vorpals, trips, stuns, intimidate, invisibility, firewalls, Cloudkill etc... over the years.

[Jay203]

One thing I do not think I ever told Jay203 before... his boycott of GS and power-creep in general, I truely understood... and in view of it all he plays with less and is one hell of a great player in DDO.

awwww, thx emi, that means a lot but i'm not as good as you claim xD
i'm, afterall, one who builds gimp builds
at least according to today's standards