Nerf PMs and Implosion or just make mobs save better against that

[gloopygloop]

Oh and if the vorpal HP cap goes away, it needs to stop doing bane damage.

Vorpal doesn't do any extra damage (except on a 20).

Disruption, Smiting and Banishing do get the bonus damage, though.

[Viisari]

You could be completely right. The casters I run with tend to be enchanters. Mostly I run eChrono and ev6 with some Fens and other randoms for variety. The only one I run with people I don't know is eChrono and I have seen a few insta kills in there, but I've yet to see a caster dominate in that quest.

I admit I don't have a great breadth of epic experience, so maybe using eChrono is a bad example? Though I had heard it was the hard one...

Back when U9 was new and oranges could still be instakilled I did some test runs in eChrono on my caster. Could get around 70 solokills in a single run. Now that I can't instakill oranges anymore it's too much of a bother because of the devils and abishai so I just farm the first fight.

But anyway, the first thing I did when U9 hit the live server, I bought a lesser heart from store and changed my enchantment archmage into a necro archmage. Haven't looked back once, trash mobs don't stand a chance against instakills, and you don't need a very high enchantment dc anyway, especially with 3sp webs

[Alavatar]

I've seen a lot of claims with regards to DCs being 45+ with the potential for DC 48 on instakills. I am curious how that is possible on such a frequent occurrence. Lets look at what is needed:

Assumption: WF L20 Wizard Pale Master (and thus has SF: Necro and gSF: Necro)

INT:
18 - Base
+5 - Level up
+3 - Wizard INT
+2 - Wizard Capstone
+4 - INT Inherent (Tome) (Assume +2 for a relatively casual player)
+7 - INT Enhancement (Epic Docent of Diabolist) (Assume +6 for a relatively casual player)
+3 - Exceptional INT from ToD Ring
+2 - Yugoloth INT potion (Assume +0 for a relatively casual player)
+2 - Lich Form
+1 - INT Profane (Litany trinket) (Assume +4 for those that use Abashai Cookies) (Assume +0 for a relatively casual player)
+2 - INT Store Potion (Assume +0 for a relatively casual player)
+2 - INT Guild Shrine
+3 - Alchemical bonus (Assume +0 for a relatively casual player)
------------------
Geared Character = INT 54 = +22 MOD
Abashai Cookie user = INT 57 = +23 MOD
Casual Character = INT 43 = +16 MOD

Direct Necro DC:
+1 - SF: Necro
+1 - gSF: Necro
+2 - Greater Necro Focus item (i.e. Unsupressed Death's Touch)
+1 - Wizard Past Life (Assume 0 for a relatively casual player)
+1 - Lich Form
-----------------
Geared Character = +6 Necro DC
Casual Character = +5 Necro DC


Spell DC Calculation:
10 - Base
+9 - Heighten to L9
+INT MOD
+Necro improvements
-----------------
Geared Character = DC47
Abashai Cookie user = DC48
Casual Character = DC40

Does that sound about right? So, the complaints revolve around characters that have significant raiding and epic grinding for relatively rare items (i.e. +4 Tome, Store Potions, Yugoloth Potions, Litany trinket, etc.) ...

[Aaxeyu]

So, the complaints revolve around characters that have significant raiding and epic grinding for relatively rare items (i.e. +4 Tome, Store Potions, Yugoloth Potions, Litany trinket, etc.) ...

Nah, 40 dc is plenty.

[Chai]

Aww, did you even read his post?

Cuz I don't think you did.

Its not about the post itself, its about the over exagerated hyperbole of melee being useless simply because theres a better option now. Certain melee builds are no longer on the throne for DPS, and insta kills take their trash beating title away as well. Most of these players were perfectly satisfied when they could suit up with some heavy picks and demand the ONE caster they would take to a group have a high CC DC or dont join. Nowdays they cant hold groups to one caster and use their proclaimed top end melee beat down fest as the fastest way to obtain victory. Casters no longer have to build the way melee players want them to build their toons, and denying more to the group simply because you have one or two already is insane because of what they bring to the table, which is now turned, and for the better. Casters are no longer in the poor ratio grouping situation they were previously in where 12 slot raids only want one or two where they wanted ~8 melee.

Only the people who care about the proverbial "pecking order" complain about this stuff, everyone else shrugs and continues playing ball.

Want to be top end single target raid DPS, kick those khopesh to the curb and roll up a water savant.

The cookie cutter is broke and the bakery's close boys.

Film at 11.

[Mirta]

why are we punishing players for being good at the game? jealousy or stupidity is all I can come up with. neither seem like good game design goals to me, but they certainly are popular in this community.

STOP CALLING FOR NERFS.

+reps, good sir. Max reps indeed.

[LeLoric]

Nah, 40 dc is plenty.

In some content, Go hop in chains of flame epic with that 40 and good luck. 44 in there the other night maybe landed 40%. OOB scorps and scorrow, Small problem wolves and cats, Scorps in eclaw, scrag in into the deeps, half-orcs in sentinels quests are all mobs with simlar level fort saves that your 40 dc isn't going to be killing efficiently. Add to that the drow in multiple quests and thers a significant group of mobs that that 40 dc is not good against without doubling sp cost by debuffing.

Sure wizzies are extremely good in certain quests that lack any high save fort mobs. Exceptionally geared ones can extend this into quests with moderate to high fort saves.

There are quests where the instadeath really shines and otheres where it doesn't.

Sure I can point out a quest where casters are awesome. EDA is exceptional as nothing has very high fort save and mobs come in timed waves that coincide with cooldowns and tend to gather up all on their own. Still it's probably quicker to bring a couple melees in here to help handle the couple waves of orange nameds and the red nameds.

Truth be told I've had savants beat me on kills in EDA almost every time as they can one shot half the mobs in there with dd spells.

Last stand is very simlar too but I can take me and a bunch of melees and three of them still get at least half my kills each and it goes extremely fast. If I am not killing all of them combined in a quest that is particularly suited to my talents on an exceptionally geared pale master it's not really that overpowered.

[Raithe]

You actually are EXACTLY the type I'm talking to and about here Raithe. You did NOT complain over the past..2 years or more is it now, while the Casters were ruling the non-Epic end game content with their instakills. Hate to break it to you Raithe, but that is NOT something that just suddenly happened with U9, it's been here since the cap hit 20(18 really, when we first got WoB). And Savants are only since U9, that's what..a little over two months ago?

First of all, I start very few threads. DDO is not my life, I'm interested in the argument and logic more than the outcome. The few threads I've started have been about trapsmithing and tanking, and mostly because I couldn't fathom the game mechanics and their design.

Second, I have taken some extensive breaks from DDO and have been F2P ever since the cap hit 20. Instakill was not dominating Reaver's Refuge due to the protections they put in place. I also doubt that instakill is as big of a factor in Amrath due to the teleporting nature of the mobs. If your caster is consistently Wailing orthons in elite Amrath while taking minimal damage... then you are playing content way below your character's progression.

Otherwise, if you're going to fight a battle for 'balance', at LEAST have the temerity to wage that battle equally, not just for your preferred flavor.

Every post I've ever submitted to this board has been in advocation of game balance in both mechanics and player attitudes. I do not recognize many of the names in this thread, and I've had several long and lengthy discussions during the 5+ years I've been posting. If you are going to accuse people of something, at least have the temerity to research and backup your claims.

Right now, caster dominance is a more pressing issue than ranger/monk dominance ever was. Barbarians? Please, they always needed a cleric strapped to their back, and the cleric they had strapped there was more of an issue in terms of balance. As for ranged, I continue to advocate a reduction in limitless ranged DPS. As soon as the ranged (including instakill) DPS hits a threshold anywhere near melee DPS, it changes the entire dynamic of this game to something extremely bland and shooter-like.

[Mirta]

Developers in case you were not aware it is tough to get a 45+ dc on your instakills unless you are a palemaster or have wizard/sorcerer past lives on your favored soul or cleric. I guess I am a little selfish in asking this from the standpoint of the vast majority of players have not even heard of past lives or have the capacity to get a +45 dc on their pale master/fvs/cleric, but for those of us that run in those groups it sucks runnning with people that can get a +45 dc on instakills. I would recommend that you figure out a method for allowing pale masters to have their fun but allowing the rest of us to also have our fun. The signal that you are sending is leave the game or roll up a palemaster or have multiple sorc past lives for your FVS or cleric. Honestly I am not joking. This is not a very good signal to send for the end game, because most people will just leave.

I see from your toons list in your sig why you might be severely biased about this subject. What aboutthose who mainly play caster classes? Should they come together and complain about your infinite DPS? Let's take away those uber greensteels, no haste, and 30 second rages with 2 minute rage cooldown timer. Oh and you have so many HP, that is unfair too so let's cap CON at 26 and take away toughness. Wouldn't that be so grand? So much fun? No? Well that is what you're basically trying to do to casters.

If you're nsot happy with the game that's your problem and nobody is forcing you to stay. And if you're still here then it doesn't really bother you that much, so let it be and stop trying to make other players miserable with needless nerfs.

This is coming from somebody who plays more melees than casters, as toons in my sig show.

[xTethx]

I see from your toons list in your sig why you might be severely biased about this subject. What aboutthose who mainly play caster classes? Should they come together and complain about your infinite DPS? Let's take away those uber greensteels, no haste, and 30 second rages with 2 minute rage cooldown timer. Oh and you have so many HP, that is unfair too so let's cap CON at 26 and take away toughness. Wouldn't that be so grand? So much fun? No? Well that is what you're basically trying to do to casters.

If you're nsot happy with the game that's your problem and nobody is forcing you to stay. And if you're still here then it doesn't really bother you that much, so let it be and stop trying to make other players miserable with needless nerfs.

This is coming from somebody who plays more melees than casters, as toons in my sig show.

I thought you were all about those piking bards.

And hey btw.

[Barashkukor]

Nah, 40 dc is plenty.

Please, give me a play by play how this works - 'cause my caster just got bump yesterday to 39 necro DC and I'd love to know if I'm geared enough to go ***pwn all teh epics.

Please, a play by play, including all cooldown-timers, spell rotations, clickie-timers etc for a toon that have absolutely no epic/raid gear - I haven't done any epics/raids yet, so I'd actually really love to know how these godlike 40DC PM's do it.

It's taken me about a year and a half to get to 20, so if you're wondering whether or not to include some extra details - please, do include them. Might be some assumed knowledge there I don't know because, well, I'm a casual slowpoke and probably don't have a tenth of the game-knowledge ya'll are running with.

[kailiea]

Piking bards are what they should really be nerfing... I mean seriously what other class can make both casters and melees better while still allowing me to do nothing and eat a sandwich.

Bravo on the last bard nerfs and I can't wait for the next round!

In all seriousness though you should really just make barbarians the only melee class and all divines and arcanes buff/healbots. Next limit the amount of barbarians to one per party and have the rest of the arcanes/divines heal the one barbarian. This ensures max dps from the melee and makes all quests waaay faster, while simultaneously making it group focused!

[Raithe]

Piking bards are what they should really be nerfing... I mean seriously what other class can make both casters and melees better while still allowing me to do nothing and eat a sandwich.

I assume this was sarcasm, and as such shows a remarkable lack of understanding of game mechanics. Bards are right there, and no group should be favoring a 6th caster over a spellsinger.

Let's do a little breakdown in spell point sources, shall we? Let's use 2 wizards, 2 sorcs, a favored soul, and a spellsinger:

2 sorcs, 1 favored soul = 3500 spell points each (using bauble, etc), x3 = 10500 spell points.

2 wizards = 2700 spell points each, x2 = 5400 spell points.

1 spellsinger:
1800 spell points
20 songs, 15 used for sp regen: 210 x 15 = 3150 spell points
10% efficiency: 1050 + 540 + 180 + 315 = 2085 spell points

Total: 7035 spell points

The bard is doing more instakilling than anyone in the party. Not to mention he can fascinate very large groups of mobs for easier Wailing/CoDing.

If you are piking your bard, you are nerfing the game worse than anyone is asking for here.

[maddmatt70]

I see from your toons list in your sig why you might be severely biased about this subject. What aboutthose who mainly play caster classes? Should they come together and complain about your infinite DPS? Let's take away those uber greensteels, no haste, and 30 second rages with 2 minute rage cooldown timer. Oh and you have so many HP, that is unfair too so let's cap CON at 26 and take away toughness. Wouldn't that be so grand? So much fun? No? Well that is what you're basically trying to do to casters.

If you're nsot happy with the game that's your problem and nobody is forcing you to stay. And if you're still here then it doesn't really bother you that much, so let it be and stop trying to make other players miserable with needless nerfs.

This is coming from somebody who plays more melees than casters, as toons in my sig show.

My five favorite characters of all time are: 1. melee/healer bard. 2. dwarven twf axe pure fighter. 3. offensive casting oriented cleric. 4. cc/healing bard. 5. ranged character. Seems like a pretty good mix of casting oriented characters actually.

I have no problems with a multitude of other nerfs and buffs to other classes that I have not previously expressed. Melee have always had an old power creep issue which is well known and leads to overblown mob/boss hit points and distorts the game is one example of potential area of change.

I speak my mind unlike some people on these forums. Yes men does nobody any good. I have asked for three nerfs: 1. remove mana pots/silver flame pots. 2. Nerf DOT Spells. 3. Nerf instakills for those classes that can get the highest instakill dcs.

I fully support the removal of blanket immunities. I like what the devs did with sorc prestige enhancements and buffing of spells like acid blast which was great. I think ray spells should get buffed further to augment a nerf to DOT spells.

This is the time for people to give feedback. The end game is in flux with the lack of release of end game content/epics. We may never get another epic quest so for whatever the devs plan for the future is - well now is the time to speak your mind and make the game better. The devs are very talented and although they do not always listen they might just listen and if they do and think something is a good idea they can make a quality change to the game.

[KoboldKiller]

Make the game better for who?

Your nerfs don't make the game better for casters.

[KristovK]

First of all, I start very few threads. DDO is not my life, I'm interested in the argument and logic more than the outcome. The few threads I've started have been about trapsmithing and tanking, and mostly because I couldn't fathom the game mechanics and their design.

Second, I have taken some extensive breaks from DDO and have been F2P ever since the cap hit 20. Instakill was not dominating Reaver's Refuge due to the protections they put in place. I also doubt that instakill is as big of a factor in Amrath due to the teleporting nature of the mobs. If your caster is consistently Wailing orthons in elite Amrath while taking minimal damage... then you are playing content way below your character's progression.



Every post I've ever submitted to this board has been in advocation of game balance in both mechanics and player attitudes. I do not recognize many of the names in this thread, and I've had several long and lengthy discussions during the 5+ years I've been posting. If you are going to accuse people of something, at least have the temerity to research and backup your claims.

Right now, caster dominance is a more pressing issue than ranger/monk dominance ever was. Barbarians? Please, they always needed a cleric strapped to their back, and the cleric they had strapped there was more of an issue in terms of balance. As for ranged, I continue to advocate a reduction in limitless ranged DPS. As soon as the ranged (including instakill) DPS hits a threshold anywhere near melee DPS, it changes the entire dynamic of this game to something extremely bland and shooter-like.

My PM was wailing mobs in Reavers and Amrath at 18th and up, which happens to be when you get the spell AND the level of those quests. Not content well below my character's progression. Epics WERE the only place I couldn't instakill mobs on my PM, but that's changed now.

And..I had already checked your posting history, it's..amusing at times, but generally just snarky and often contradictory.

First off..

DDO isn't competitive? Bull. Hockey. You playing the game to read the cheesy stories for each quest once? You'll be around for all of 2 months every 5 years. For many players DDO is a competitive grind-to-be-uber contest. For others like me it's an FPS twitch shooter where getting better at the game controls is gauged by performance relative to others in the group (i.e., competitive).

that quote says it all about you as a player. And that's AFTER you made THIS statment..

I agree that many people treat DDO as a type of PvP where they compete in kill counts and survival scenarios against each other. They form a majority, but other player types exist.

For me the game is more about the efficiency of the success of the group. Faster, easier, less expensive completions using suboptimal characters and stats.

So which is it? You play to beat everyone around in the kill counts OR you play to contribute to the overall success of the party with a suboptimal build that's not concerned with the kill counts? Please, I HAVE read your posting history, as I said, it's sometimes amusing, but mostly just snarky.

And, I must add, you DO seem to want nerfs consistantly in your posting history. You even state that AAs are almost as OP as Casters! Having not just 1 but 2 different AA builds myself, Kensai and Ranger, I find that comment extremely funny!

As to the actual OP..it's been pointed out already that DCs he using as a basis for his, yet again, call of NERF are based on the high end builds, not the average player. And if Matt hasn't figured it out by now, MMOs are based on the LCD rule, you design for the Lowest Common Denominator, your AVERAGE player who spends 2-5 hours a week playing the game. You do NOT design it for the extreme players, that's a bad move, just look at how Epics were originally released, designed for the extreme builds and even they had hells getting them done. That didn't last for too long, the Epics were redone to make them far more accessible to the AVERAGE player. And after a few years, the devs decided that from the data they have access to, Epics weren't getting the traffic they wanted to see..or that marketing wanted to see, take your pick. So, U9, remove the Epic Ward, make the Epics a little more accessible to the Average player. Sales of the packs containing Epic content will go up, as will purchases of Favored Soul and War Forged and Half Elves(due to the fact that these are already good things to have and the whines about Casters being OP will simply fuel that). Game still plays as it has at all levels for the Average player EXCEPT Epics, which are now more fun for the Average player. That's a Win/Win for Turbine, their largest playerbase sector is happier AND Marketing is happier! So the extreme high end builders don't like it..or I should say, the Melee in that sector doesn't like it..some of them, so what? They already have the packs, no loss in sales. Average gamers don't play with them, won't hear them whining, sales not impacted. Whines on the forums about how OP Casters are now because they can instakill in Epics is even MORE sales for Turbine, since now the wannabe PGers know that certain classes and races are extremely powerful and really shine in Epics!

And all the while, the REST of the game goes on just like it has been for years now, because the only real changes are in Epics. TRs have already been overrunning EVERYTHING since they were introduced. Casters have been overrunning everything since we got our big instakills, and to a lesser extent, since day 1 as PK has been in DDO since it went Live in 06. If you haven't been seeing this, it's because you've only been doing Epics, where Casters were nothing but support. Everywhere else, it's been a different game and that game hasn't changed.

[Mirta]

Make the game better for who?

Your nerfs don't make the game better for casters.

^^^this^^^

Changes and suggestions are great, but what the op is suggesting only makes the game better for a few and much worse for many more.

[karnokvolrath]

If you want a challenge, stop tring and making godmode charicters.

Nerfing casual players because of hardcore players is not the answer.

[Mirta]

Piking bards are what they should really be nerfing... I mean seriously what other class can make both casters and melees better while still allowing me to do nothing and eat a sandwich.

Bravo on the last bard nerfs and I can't wait for the next round!

In all seriousness though you should really just make barbarians the only melee class and all divines and arcanes buff/healbots. Next limit the amount of barbarians to one per party and have the rest of the arcanes/divines heal the one barbarian. This ensures max dps from the melee and makes all quests waaay faster, while simultaneously making it group focused!

Why do you think i have 5 bards?

[irivan]

Nah, 40 dc is plenty.

You are totally talking out of the side of your mouth now.

No 40 DC is not enough, post a video with your caster at 40 DC Soloing around in any epic with a 40, even using symbol of death, and energy drains, the saves will keep on coming, i dare you.

The down side of using all of these de-buffs is the mana drain, you will be out of gas fast, or dead well before that.

People running around making claims that 36-40 DC is effective in epic are LIARS!

I know **** well from many a days where my DC was hung at 42 that even at that point in places like elite Amrath, Desert Epics, even some of the carnival mobs and most certainly chronoscope that they save about 30-50% of the time. Dont lie to make your point. I would be happy to nerf my DC for those of you on Khyber and show you the difference between sure DC and everything else, every point you slip below 45, takes you from 70% success rate down by about 10-20% each step.

38 is not even close to what is needed now a days, they clearly raised monster save threshold with the last update, 38 will kill 1-3 mobs out of 10 at best, so i am sure you can now imagine the sliding ladder, 40 is not a ton better. 42 it starts to become effective against some mobs, and 45 is the point where many die, but even against epic knolls, elite devils you still have strong resistance, and dont even mention epic Drow, they present another problem all together, and there are quite a few epics these days where that monster is present.

The reason i pushed my DC to 45 is so that i could get to the point of mana efficiency and sustainability.

Now maybe if you have a party of Melees to defend you and hide behind, a wail here and there, prepped by a symbol of death, prepped by a circle of death, may work for that character, but its ok, because he has the melees backing him up when he runs out of mana.

I have been in those groups, and everything goes to hell in the 5 minutes it takes that fools to spam out their mana, and there is no CC left.

The other myth is that casters with sufficient DC's for any type of casting is just floating around, i think i can think of them all on Khyber and its about 10-20 total...out of probably thousands upon thousands of casters. Most of which are sorcerers, which can CC differently by blowing up mobs and kiting, a totally valid way to do it, a few, and i mean a very few actually have enough DC's to truly insta kill.

But most of these people making the claim that these guys are ruining the game are entrapped in their own little world where the people they think they are pugging with are gennerally people they know, to be truthful on Khyber Pugging works very differently from other worlds, in some ways we might as well just have one giant guild alliance, there are the good guilds who generally cooperate and accept each other, and then there is every one else, and that is OK, because most of them do their own thing and just work their way up to relevancy.

But in the end this call for the nerf is based on a few exceptional players who have worked hard to achieve what they have.

You mean to tell me that we should reward hard work with punishment? if the Devs agree then i submit. But i some how doubt they will. They like me, know the real deal of what is going on in most groups where the casters are just for show and buffing, if you can even get them to do that much before they are dead.