Am I in the wrong here?

[testing1234]

right or wrong is one side the other side is whats "physically possible" is the other:

-you- Can pass the loot without offering roll=seems a reasonable thing to do from your perspective

-wizard- can blacklist you and guild=seems a reasonable thing to do from wizards perspective

you want to be able to pass loot to guildies wizard wants all roll for, obviously you shouldnt be in the same party each time this happens its drama waiting to happen.
think wizard is doing you and himeself a favor by blacklisting

best solution is to have loot system in lfm this is my prefered or second best talked about before entering/looting

[Schmoe]

There's one flaw in your logic: You assume that you have a better chance at loot in a PUG with eleven random people. Loot gets passed for many different reasons. I've passed loot to my wife, guildies, friends in other guilds, and to complete strangers for one reason or another. I've seen others give loot to the first person that stated they wanted it, no rolling.

I was only trying to point out the effect of passing loot versus rolling. A system of passing loot instead of putting it up for roll directly reduces the probability of receiving loot for those outside of the group that loot might be passed to. That's not a logical fallacy, that's simple statistics.

Others loot things themselves out of ignorance.(I.E. the item is basically useless to them, such as raising their AC to a 27. At level 18. Yes, I've seen someone excited about that) There are an unlimited number of reasons why you might not get a chance to roll on an item, and guilds have nothing to do with most of them.

Absolutely. And each of those reasons also reduces a person's chance of receiving loot when compared to putting the loot up for a roll.

The only way to avoid being disappointed in loot situations is to not have any expectations. You should go into a raid expecting only your 1/6th chance at a piece of raid loot from the end chest.(Yes, I know it actually varies somewhat, but you get my meaning) Anything you receive beyond that is a bonus, not an entitlement. I've been on many raids, PUG, guild, whatever. I firmly believe that "Your loot is your loot", and that's it. No expectations about what drops for others, and I do what I want with what drops for me. Yes, I try to be fair when I do give my loot away, but I'm the only one that can ultimately decide what is fair in this completely subjective decision.

Oh yeah, I definitely agree with that. I only ever expect to get what I directly pull. Anything else is a pleasant surprise.

[Schmoe]

I
If it never gets put up for roll, you never had a chance at it, so if it gets passed to someone you shouldn't feel excluded.

True. But the person who the item was passed to did have a chance at it. So who had the greater chance at getting loot?

[Freeman]

I was only trying to point out the effect of passing loot versus rolling. A system of passing loot instead of putting it up for roll directly reduces the probability of receiving loot for those outside of the group that loot might be passed to. That's not a logical fallacy, that's simple statistics.

So you assume there's a chance you will get loot that drops for someone else? That's the only way your odds of getting loot that dropped for another could be reduced. I assume they start at zero personally, since anything else directly contradicts your statement below.

Oh yeah, I definitely agree with that. I only ever expect to get what I directly pull. Anything else is a pleasant surprise.

If this is what you truly expect, then you should assume that you have zero chance of getting loot that drops for someone else. By that logic, your odds cannot be reduced. The reasons why you don't get the loot are irrelevant and could be anything.(Someone passed, looted, lost the roll, etc)

Too many people get hung up on the eleven-1 guild-pug example, but they don't explore further. Suppose you have ten random people, then a husband-wife duo. Would you get upset if the husband passed a piece of loot that dropped for him to his wife? The numbers and guilds are smokescreens. Each individual has the right to do what they want with loot that drops for them. If you believe that, you will never be disappointed.

[Schmoe]

So you assume there's a chance you will get loot that drops for someone else?

No. I assume that if someone puts up a piece of loot for roll, I have a chance that I might win it.

That's the only way your odds of getting loot that dropped for another could be reduced. I assume they start at zero personally, since anything else directly contradicts your statement below.

Again, I was comparing two alternatives to distributing unwanted loot:

1. Putting it up for roll
2. Passing it to someone from within a select group of people

Too many people get hung up on the eleven-1 guild-pug example, but they don't explore further. Suppose you have ten random people, then a husband-wife duo. Would you get upset if the husband passed a piece of loot that dropped for him to his wife? The numbers and guilds are smokescreens. Each individual has the right to do what they want with loot that drops for them. If you believe that, you will never be disappointed.

I personally have never been upset by any sort of loot distribution. Honestly, it's just a game. However, I'm sure each one of the husband-wife pair realize they are depriving others of of a chance at their unwanted loot. That's kind of the definition of picking who it goes to, isn't it? You're saying "no loot for all you others, sorry."

[Gawna]

...at least he now has closet full of Enlightened Vestments.

If you MyDDO the deepwood assassin, she's wearing them.

[Eladiun]

If you MyDDO the deepwood assassin, she's wearing them.

/facepalm

The rest of the gear isn't much better.

[Schmoe]

If you MyDDO the deepwood assassin, she's wearing them.

Hey, my ranger has some enlightened vestments too! They look pretty snazzy

[fluffybunnywilson]

If this is what you truly expect, then you should assume that you have zero chance of getting loot that drops for someone else. By that logic, your odds cannot be reduced.

I don't expect to get a Large Devil Scale on any particular Shroud run. That doesn't mean I have zero chance of getting one.

I absolutely agree that NO ONE should ever feel entitled to loot that dropped in another person's name. If someone wants to pass unwanted loot to their friends or guildies instead of letting people /roll on it, that's their business.

That sentiment shouldn't confuse anyone into thinking that passing loot to guildies doesn't reduce a pugger's chance of receiving loot in a raid, though.


If everyone in a guild raid puts their unwanted loot up for roll, then puggers will have a greater chance of getting raid loot than if the guildies who make up the majority of the party don't give each other "dibs" on raid loot. That doesn't make the guild evil or greedy or dishonest or anything else. It just means that puggers will have a lower chance of getting raid loot in that run than they will have in a run that is made up of people who put their unwanted loot up for /roll.

Probability and statistics aren't really all that difficult. This isn't all that different from the Monty Haul problem.

[Disavowed]

While I understand exactly what you're saying here, I think it's important to make a distinction.
Someone looting the item that they pulled is the same thing as someone passing the item that they pulled. You weren't going to get it either way, no matter what. So when someone pulls an item and passes it, to me it's just like they looted it themselves.
Personally I almost never simply pass an item, preferring to put it up for roll for everyone. But I never get upset or feel cheated when I see others do it, and I never feel dirty on the rare occasions that I do it myself.
It's only when the second person passes/offers-roll/sells the item that I find distasteful.

It's not a matter of feeling cheated because I don't. On the other hand I don't think it's right to just pass my loot onto my wife if she's one her cleric and the other cleric needs the same item as well. He did the same amount of work as her. Neither of them pulled it so why shouldn't he have a chance at it.

Again I'm torn on this one but I'll use the drunken raid runs as an example. You drag your lowbies thru there because you know most of us don't need the loot so nobody is going to roll on the stuff or at least not many are. If there's a newbie that dares to come and drink with us and put up with a bunch of drunk idiots. Should we just pass the loot on to you because we know you? Would that be fair to the newbie who was doing shots right along with the rest of us and having to hear our drunk asses slurring and barely able to function? I think he has a right to a chance at it as opposed to us just passing it to you because we know you. The same if we were a guild. It does make one feel excluded. Why should I automatically not get a chance at a loot item just because I'm not in the guild but I helped just as much when the item isn't being kept by the person who pulled it.

Look at how hard you (along with the rest of us) busted Johns balls over the goggles in VOD because he bithced at the newbie who rolled on it and won even though the newbie didn't need the item. We all tore John up for complaining. Yes he was a newbie and didn't know better. He was happy just to get a named item which he probably has none of, and may not have even rolled on an item before. Should we have denied him the excitement of winning his 1st peice of raid loot? Considering we do this stuff in a drunken stupor every Friday night, and know it will eventually fall in Johns lap. No. And we didn't we busted Johns balls instead because he *****ed about it.

[patang01]

The only time I would find this fishy was if you rolled on the loot (to give someone a extra roll) and then gave it to that guy.

Otherwise I've done it myself and guildies done it to me; they or I pulled something and handed it to someone else. Your loot.

[countfitz]

If you had rolled on them then passed them, I'd get mad. If you had them and passed them without even mentioning roll, well good for you. And to reiterate what others have said, they work better for a melee, why do you need fireshield on a caster who nobody should ever be attacking? Thats just extra melee dps in my opinion.

[Chris79]

I just wish I pulled the bracers so I could give them to her and cause Australia to declare war on the USA.

I'm trying to remember what I said...something along the lines of 'Now I have enough vestments to tie into a rope and hang myself'

[Dark_Helmet]

True. But the person who the item was passed to did have a chance at it. So who had the greater chance at getting loot?

For you to have a greater chance would require those people to be your friends or you have knowledge of what they did to farm animals some late, drunk night.

Now, if that person who got the loot didn't have friends in the group, that increased your chances.