New Dice notation. Do not like.

[Dark_Helmet]

My biggest question is: What was the reason for this change? I mean, really. Most people that play any MMO are going to be smart enough to know that 2d6 is going to result in a number between 2 and 12 to begin with. This is even if they've never played a pen-n-paper game. The internet is so full of geeks, it would be nearly impossible to not accidently pick that type of information up somewhere if you play any type of MMO. You even find references to it in WoW's and STO's forums. So, why was this changed? And who exactly thought this was a good idea?

Dumbing down:
They cater to the age 4 and up market now. They learned from the tobacco companies
that they need to start early!

I think they really thing their audience is this stupid! Are they really competing with:

[cdbd3rd]

Skipping much of this second iteration of the topic to say, "I like dice."

Plain & simple - the notation system is part of the D&D flavor.

[Kwyjibo]

Add me to the list of people who don't care for this change...Please stop bastardizing D&D!!

[Arkat]

Granted, feedback should be civil, but Patience you are asking too much of those of us who have been around since Beta to buy that you folks "absolutely want feedback on the change" from us. Sure, you have been paying attention to the new influx of customers and dramatically changing the game to suit them, moving ever farther away from any resemblance to D&D resulting in what is currently a vaguely D&D-esque MMO that has more in common with other MMOs than D&D itself, but have dramatically and draconically chastised any attempt at criticism or feedback by the DDO veterans.

The Offer Wall was nearly universally challenged, and that was why it was nixed, not because of an outcry by the veteran community and I feel, that based upon the overwhelmingly one-sided method by which Turbine has reacted to feedback that if the veteran community unanimously objected but the new influx of players had liked the Offer Wall it would have stayed. That is your track record. It is a record of dismissive and abusive moderators who feel it is their calling to beat back the veterans of this game and try to cow them into submission.

I react not to the ridiculous d20 questions, but to your statement that you want feedback. I can say, after reviewing your posts, and the posts of many other moderators (I distinguish them from the developers) that your statement is misleading at the very best of all possible interpretations. I am not a child who will /ragequit the game because of the incessant and constant movement away from the creative-thinking game it was towards the one-button-push-for-pablum game it has become, nor are most veterans of the game. But we do ask to be given, at least, the same platform and the same rules-as-enforced by the moderators as you do the newer players. Don't even try to tell me that you do, I have experienced it first-hand as both a "new player" with a new join date and as a vet player...same posts...same words...same quoted text...one no response, the other 2 infraction points. I'll let you figure out which one got dinged and by whom.

I proudly pay for over 6 accounts for my family, and also have 2 FTP and 4 Premium accounts mixed in there for good measure, so I'm not going anywhere with my entertainment dollar. I do, however, ask that we stop being given short shrift and start being treated with the respect due to a paying customer...especially when we do offer up criticism and it is stated politely. Sure warn the ones who are jerks, but the rest of us deserve a voice, and having moderators that categorically chastise veterans for polite, well-voiced dissenting opinions is not, IMHO "absolutely want[ing] feedback."

Yeah!

+1

[olBillDoor]

Skipping much of this second iteration of the topic to say, "I like dice."

Plain & simple - the notation system is part of the D&D flavor.

this.

Add me to the list of people who don't care for this change...Please stop bastardizing D&D!!

and this.

[ripperj]

i had absolutely ZERO D&D background when i joined this game

its harder finding a beer in the fridge then understanding the d20 system!

and even easier understanding it when your drunk!

Turbine are you expecting babies to play this game? honestly!

[Retsam]

/shrug push it back to update 6 and make a UI option, put your new system ON by default and let the vets turn it OFF.

[Ulfgaar]

My issue with the change in the 1d6 to (1-6) is that it feels like it destroys part of the foundation of Dungeons and Dragons. It just seems to me that if the people who started the game felt it was easier to say (1-20) instead of 1d20 they would have went with that system. But 1d20 has held firm. Even in 4th edition we still have damage listed in 1d10 form.

Dungeons and Dragons as well as DDO should have a relationship that makes one want to play the other and visa versa. If you change too much it will become a game loosely based on Dungeons and Dragons. I would hate to ever think of this game in that way.

I really urge you to look back over this issue and consider making a change back to the way many people think it should be.

[Sweetsoul86]

I think the fact that a great number of the posts on this thread are from players who have been here since f2p and several since 2010 should tell you that even newer players came here for the d&d feel of the game. There are many who have also stated they didn't know pnp before coming to this game and STILL oppose this change.

I think the fact that so many new and old players oppose this should be enough to show that this change, implemented in this manner is NOT what we want OR need. A great number of suggestions with great merit have been laid out before you and I for one feel that going through with this change with so many opposing it would be a slight in the direction of all your loyal customers.

I sincerely hope you go with a choice that can help the new players fall in love with d&d like so many of us while keeping the flavor and heart of what we came here for.

[SisAmethyst]

Well, I will try to make it constructive...

how can the system be improved:
- keep the old notation of [x]d[y]+[z]
- explain the dice system in the intro
- you added the circus to house Phiarlan. Why not add a small puzzle game in the game as follows:
4 Podest and 4 Wheels
The wheels let you choose numbers between 0 and 3 and attachet to each Podest.
1. Podest: six sided dice
2. Podest: eight sided dice
3. Podest: ten sided dice
4. podest: tweny sided dice
The riddel given is: Roll 3d6 + 2d8 + 1d20
So you have to set the wheels to 3, 2, 0 and 1 and then pull a lever.
Pulling a lever will automate roll the dices you selected.
Or you have to reach a minimum value, or dunno, there are so many possibilities...
There is the game manual as pdf add details inside of that and automatically open it at install time. I know that some DDO player who once bought and played e.g. Never Winter Nights still use this manual as a quick reference (e.g. for the description at which level you can choose a feat or increase a stat)

What I like on the new System:
- with all respect, except of the color highlighting part in the description, nothing

What I like least:
- First of all 2d6 is not the same as 2-12 as already said its a curve with the highest value in the middle
- Its not Dungeon & Dragon anymore
- We lose some of the sepcific flavour of the game
- As the D20 system is a fundamental part of the game it may even a breach of the WotC licence
- I not believe it will help new players*
- It will not really introduce players to DDO but just improve lazyness
- It is even not really difficult to understand as soon as it is explained
- If a player now not understand, he can ask and he will be told what is behind the syntax, this actualy improve communication. If one not ask he eiter already know or he not care anyway.
- A game has rules, like in Chess the horse is only allwed certain moves. If you change this rule, you not play ches anymore. DDO has rules based on D&D, if you change that it is not the same anymore.
- Me and a lot of people like and come to this game because it is different then other games, even if some of the aspects seems to be weird for new players. Heck with 8 years boys think that girls are weird and some years later they run after them.
- who will not understand the dice system will not understand to roll for an item via /roll and its syntax.
- just changing a accurate notation into an other one does not always explain what it mean

*Some people stated 'It may help new players.'
And I not believe that the new description really help understanding.
If someone previously asked what does the '1d6' mean than it is probably that this person want to know more details and not be treated for dumb. It could even lead even to further questions like 'Does it mean that the first hit does 1, the second 2, till up to 12?'
Dumping it down to '2-12' It reduce the understanding of several things that are linked to that D20 system like why we have a dice displayed (not only as the masters voice), why we roll our attack, why the max level is 20, why is a even stat better then a odd, why all shortswords have a base valued of 1d6,... A simplification still not explain the crits or why I usualy only see an avearge but rarely the minimum or the maximum.

[Faelyndel]

I never played PnP before DDO, but even I appreciate the game for it's roots in D&D. It's one of, it not the most important thing setting it apart from and above other MMORPG's.

I'm opposed to this change not only because it's so unnecessary (the [x]d[y] system is not difficult to understand, and is simply part of the learning curve of the game if you weren't previously familiar with) but because it is such a waste of development time and energy. With all the content that needs to be added to the game to continue to please your customers, heck even fixing descriptions in game that aren't already clear or accurate, it hardly seems feasible to waste time changing a working system.

[EazyWeazy]

Granted, feedback should be civil, but Patience you are asking too much of those of us who have been around since Beta to buy that you folks "absolutely want feedback on the change" from us. Sure, you have been paying attention to the new influx of customers and dramatically changing the game to suit them, moving ever farther away from any resemblance to D&D resulting in what is currently a vaguely D&D-esque MMO that has more in common with other MMOs than D&D itself, but have dramatically and draconically chastised any attempt at criticism or feedback by the DDO veterans.

The Offer Wall was nearly universally challenged, and that was why it was nixed, not because of an outcry by the veteran community and I feel, that based upon the overwhelmingly one-sided method by which Turbine has reacted to feedback that if the veteran community unanimously objected but the new influx of players had liked the Offer Wall it would have stayed. That is your track record. It is a record of dismissive and abusive moderators who feel it is their calling to beat back the veterans of this game and try to cow them into submission.

I react not to the ridiculous d20 questions, but to your statement that you want feedback. I can say, after reviewing your posts, and the posts of many other moderators (I distinguish them from the developers) that your statement is misleading at the very best of all possible interpretations. I am not a child who will /ragequit the game because of the incessant and constant movement away from the creative-thinking game it was towards the one-button-push-for-pablum game it has become, nor are most veterans of the game. But we do ask to be given, at least, the same platform and the same rules-as-enforced by the moderators as you do the newer players. Don't even try to tell me that you do, I have experienced it first-hand as both a "new player" with a new join date and as a vet player...same posts...same words...same quoted text...one no response, the other 2 infraction points. I'll let you figure out which one got dinged and by whom.

I proudly pay for over 6 accounts for my family, and also have 2 FTP and 4 Premium accounts mixed in there for good measure, so I'm not going anywhere with my entertainment dollar. I do, however, ask that we stop being given short shrift and start being treated with the respect due to a paying customer...especially when we do offer up criticism and it is stated politely. Sure warn the ones who are jerks, but the rest of us deserve a voice, and having moderators that categorically chastise veterans for polite, well-voiced dissenting opinions is not, IMHO "absolutely want[ing] feedback."

**** YEAH!!! +1 and more if I could.

[Anthem]

The dice are the one universal icon of D&D.

• To players of one generation it's the two-colour original rules "booklets".
• To players of my generation it's the AD&D 1st edition book covers or the Greyhawk set.
• Later generations have had gorgeous artwork in many forms.

But every generation of D&D player recognizes the dice.

Each generation of players has had iconic images for D&D, but the one single unifying and instantly recognizable image is that of our dice! They come in crystal colours, they come in solids, they come rounded or sharp, but every D&D player and non-players alike recognize the dice as the RPG icon.

The one thing that unifies any community is the shared knowledge of one (often simple) minimum common denominator. For Ham Operators it's morse, and for pilots it's charts. For chemists it's the difference between H2O and H2SO4. Musicians, formally trained or not, know their timings, and the kids on my street know the shortcuts, the alleyways, and the nicknames of the places adults don't go.

For D&D it's THE DICE!!

d20 notation is our one Shibboleth. It's incredibly easy to learn and understand, and when you do understand it, you're already a D&D player. Maybe a good one, maybe a bad one, and usually somewhere in between, but regardless of any passing fads, book covers, or fancies, the dice are universal. Only perhaps until now.

The last thing I want to do is to cheapen this truth by exploiting those who cannot speak for themselves, but when I saw this oversimplified and inaccurate notation I couldn't help but ask myself how Messrs. Gygax and Arneson would feel about Turbine and Time Warner suggesting that D&D players specifically, or people in general, are too simple to grasp what 2d10 means. I hope ...no, I insist, that your customers (both existing and potential) are indeed smart enough to grasp d20 notation, and I don't think I would be alone in saying that any proposition to the contrary is insulting.

d20 notation IS Dungeons and Dragons.

Thank you.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Just showed this thread to my wife. A very casual play who is still learning and has no D&D background prior to playing here. Her comment was "what does 2-12 mean, how come it can't do 1?" I told her it was because it used to say 2d6 and her answer "well why don't they just say 2d6 then?". Took me 60 seconds to explain the dice system to her on her first day, she gets it and she thinks that the new system is dumb too.

2d6 results are on a bell curve....2-12 are not....they are a flat line statistically. Waaaaay different results. Even by that conotation, they shouldn't be allowed into the game.

Anyone suddenly wonder if they are rolling 2d6 or if they will roll rnd(2,12)?

That would be an even more substantial change...

Anyone feel like rolling a greatsword or other multi die weapon a few hundred times to see if the 2-12 is normally distributed or evenly distributed? (stupid scags not staying alive now I guess that makes it harder to do...)

[ripperj]

expect the unexpected, don't expect anything positive

and if the devs want our oppinion on something, probably best not to say anything,
since they do the opposite anyway

and no, i dont care about the twf nerf, w/e
but removing the d20 is overstepping

[Lorien_the_First_One]

but removing the d20 is overstepping

I agree that is the most unacceptable one to me as well. I know its not changing gameplay, but its taking this game away from the core of why many of us came here, the D&D franchise.

[MarcusCole]

i Agree That Is The Most Unacceptable One To Me As Well. I Know Its Not Changing Gameplay, But Its Taking This Game Away From The Core Of Why Many Of Us Came Here, The D&d Franchise.

Qft

[ripperj]

there was a great idea I saw, basically stating
that we would be able to toggle between d20 / 1-20

but ofcourse, just a sad idea

[Aristalla]

I'm hoping that, in the next update, they add a tag to every weapon and armor that automatically says, "This gears are gooder." every time I get something better. All that math and adding stuff is just too complicated......
..
.

[OrangePowerade]

I don't get a single phrase in this thread.