Ranged RoF Increase

[LargeMarge]

Please, Please, PLEASE! Increase the rate of fire (RoF) for ranged weapons.

I love the new changes to the AA and some of the other changes that you are including into the new update, but please increase the RoF so that ranged fighting would be some-what comparable to melee fighting.

I'm not suggesting that it be the same as melee. I'm just asking that it be increased to keep up.

You guys fixed the swing speed for numerous weapons before (i.e. falchion), so why not do it now? Please include this fix in the upcoming update.


Also could you increase the distance for ranged sneak attacks

[Shade]

You guys fixed the swing speed for numerous weapons before (i.e. falchion), so why not do it now? Please include this fix in the upcoming update.

One cannot fix what is not broke.

If you must know the real reason why turbine will NEVER make archer any good, it's actually pretty simple.
Turbines first mmo - they made archery so insanely overpowered to the point that everyone who played melee quit the game. This problem still exists in the game today. They don't want to go down that evil road again.

A combat style which poses zero risk of injury will never be as good as one that does, it's just simple logic.

[wamjratl1]

I understand the frustration for the speed of ranged attacks. However, there are solid reason why it is so slow; mostly due to kiting, perching, etc. having ranged attacks more comparable to melee could make it way overpowered.

The good news is, the ranger capstone actually rocks IMO so if you are ranged-focused pure ranger you can really shine more once you hit cap. And it stacks with haste and alacrity items like the Abbot quiver. My ranger is melee focused but now at cap can really dish out OK ranged damage even while manyshot is on cooldown.

What would really help ranged attacks is fixing the ones that never seem to even register - no hit, no miss, just an arrow flying off into nothingness...

[LargeMarge]

One cannot fix what is not broke.

If you must know the real reason why turbine will NEVER make archer any good, it's actually pretty simple.
Turbines first mmo - they made archery so insanely overpowered to the point that everyone who played melee quit the game. This problem still exists in the game today. They don't want to go down that evil road again.

A combat style which poses zero risk of injury will never be as good as one that does, it's just simple logic.

Shade...come on man? You would rather have it to where ranged builds are not viable? That's not a solution.

I do understand your concern. However, I'm not suggesting that the speed be increased to take away melee. Melee should always be a better dps combat style imo. I'm just suggesting that it be increased to where ranged builds could be playable without receiving the stereotypical criticisms from other players.

Also, don't think that a ranged combat style is without risk. That would be like suggesting that casters have no risk because they cast from a distance. They all receive aggro. It's just that some casters can't handle the dmg as well as some ranged builds. However, those ranged builds can't dish out the massive dmg that a caster could either.

[LargeMarge]

What would really help ranged attacks is fixing the ones that never seem to even register - no hit, no miss, just an arrow flying off into nothingness...

I can agree with that. Maybe that could be a change that would bring up the dps for ranged combat style and not take away from melee.

[irivan]

Please, Please, PLEASE! Increase the rate of fire (RoF) for ranged weapons.

I love the new changes to the AA and some of the other changes that you are including into the new update, but please increase the RoF so that ranged fighting would be some-what comparable to melee fighting.

I'm not suggesting that it be the same as melee. I'm just asking that it be increased to keep up.

You guys fixed the swing speed for numerous weapons before (i.e. falchion), so why not do it now? Please include this fix in the upcoming update.


Also could you increase the distance for ranged sneak attacks

So personally i find that if you min/max your ranged build with a few fighter levels, say Kensai with bow, , and 12 ranger levels added in and the new arcane archer stuff, that the DPS in average is nearly identical to a melee, it just happens over differnet intervals, and aggravates the hell out of melees because monsters are chasing you all over gods Eberonn.

See what i did on Llamania was Reincarnate my Elven Arcane archer to 12 rangr/6 fighter/2 pally. using the kensai weapon specialties, fighter specialization, along with my lighting strike bow, combined with the death attack....about every 10 hits one of the massive damage effects were going off, usually killing said monster instantly. Even the Hardcore Devils on Amrath and the subterranean could not survive.

I dont think it needs to be fixed, i would like more arcane archer options, some fun ones like paralyzing shot, and not just lame para bow, but the real paralyzing you hate so much, and maybe even a grease arrow, but out side of that.

I think it works well. And groups are going to hate my fear arrows.. hahahahaha

[wiglin]

Didn't Codog say something along the lines, that rof could not be increased to much do to limitations on the server? I thought I remember reading that back when that whole thread was going.

[Aesop]

So personally i find that if you min/max your ranged build with a few fighter levels, say Kensai with bow, , and 12 ranger levels added in and the new arcane archer stuff, that the DPS in average is nearly identical to a melee, it just happens over differnet intervals, and aggravates the hell out of melees because monsters are chasing you all over gods Eberonn.

See what i did on Llamania was Reincarnate my Elven Arcane archer to 12 rangr/6 fighter/2 pally. using the kensai weapon specialties, fighter specialization, along with my lighting strike bow, combined with the death attack....about every 10 hits one of the massive damage effects were going off, usually killing said monster instantly. Even the Hardcore Devils on Amrath and the subterranean could not survive.

I dont think it needs to be fixed, i would like more arcane archer options, some fun ones like paralyzing shot, and not just lame para bow, but the real paralyzing you hate so much, and maybe even a grease arrow, but out side of that.

I think it works well. And groups are going to hate my fear arrows.. hahahahaha

except that you are losing dps by not being a Pure Ranger... +4 damage a hit is significantly less dps than 20+% more attacks per cycle... not to mention the loss of Favored Enemy bonuses.


Its the can of worms the Capstones opened that make MC less and less viable.

Now if instead they up'd the RoA of Ranged in general by 10% and downed the Ranger Capstone to 15% and instead added something else in the bonus form that would be nice. Give the general Ranged attacks a little boost.

also changing the AI to compensate for ranged kiting and and you reduce the tedium that that entails.

add in other DPS options for Single Target DPSing (like for most boss fights) say Over Draw (as a power Attack like Feat for Bow) and X-Bow Sniper (half Dex bonus to damage crittable mobs only for x-bow builds)

then toss in some Tactical Abilities that don't revolve around having an effect bow and you mayhave a viable style that isn't overpowered

Aesop

[grodon9999]

A bow with rapid-shot (not the Ranger capstone) should fire as fast as a single-handed weapons can swing. Non-rapid shot should fire as fast as rapid-shot does now.

Counting the number of shots last night in my 20th level Ranger, with the capstone it's about there so it's about equal to one sword so in my opinion it's too slow. I'd be happy if rapid-shot could fire as fast as the monsters do.

[Arlith]

I'd be happy if rapid-shot could fire as fast as the monsters do.

Now you are just getting silly. Fire as fast as the mobs. TFF!

[LargeMarge]

So personally i find that if you min/max your ranged build with a few fighter levels, say Kensai with bow, , and 12 ranger levels added in and the new arcane archer stuff, that the DPS in average is nearly identical to a melee, it just happens over differnet intervals, and aggravates the hell out of melees because monsters are chasing you all over gods Eberonn.

See what i did on Llamania was Reincarnate my Elven Arcane archer to 12 rangr/6 fighter/2 pally. using the kensai weapon specialties, fighter specialization, along with my lighting strike bow, combined with the death attack....about every 10 hits one of the massive damage effects were going off, usually killing said monster instantly. Even the Hardcore Devils on Amrath and the subterranean could not survive.

I dont think it needs to be fixed, i would like more arcane archer options, some fun ones like paralyzing shot, and not just lame para bow, but the real paralyzing you hate so much, and maybe even a grease arrow, but out side of that.

I think it works well. And groups are going to hate my fear arrows.. hahahahaha

So...what you are saying is that ranged dps becomes better and almost comparable to melee when you reach level 20 (or level 18 for rangers) to get the slaying arrows?

In other words, it becomes fun to play when you reach the end, but sucks to play while you are grinding out levels?


/relaxes & takes a deep breath

I'm not trying to cause a big debate here, and I wasn't meaning for this thread to go in this direction. I apologize.

I guess my frustration stems from all of the pugs that I have been encountering with my new rogue AA build that I am currently leveling. Once they see the bow come out...they start hating. I just wish people would see how ranged combat styles could be a viable playing style.

Luckily I have been playing for a while and understand the frustration that people get with ranged builds (especially when you are having to run all over the place like a chicken with its head cut off). I built my toon to where I don't have to run far all over the place when I have aggro (due to my ok AC) so that the tanks don't have to run all over the place, and I try to play smartly while in ranged-mode and not aggro more than I or the group can handle.

[Gnorbert]

Shade...come on man? You would rather have it to where ranged builds are not viable? That's not a solution.

Ranged builds are perfectly viable right now... they just don't put out the same damage as a melee. Why is the "viability" of a build only measured in damage? a ranged character can take out a stat damaging/cursespewing bow and debuff a large group of monsters quite quickly. They can more easily deal with highly mobile targets that Melee need to chase while swinging. They can play a myriad of support roles through wands due to staying at the fringe of the fight.

Shade is right. If archer damage approached the even mark with the Melee then there would be chaos.

[grodon9999]

Shade is right. If archer damage approached the even mark with the Melee then there would be chaos.

It already exceeds it for 20 seconds every 20 minutes

I said it in the previous post, just let rapid-shot people fire as fast as CR-appropriate monsters and it'd be fine.

[Emili]

One cannot fix what is not broke.

If you must know the real reason why turbine will NEVER make archer any good, it's actually pretty simple.
Turbines first mmo - they made archery so insanely overpowered to the point that everyone who played melee quit the game. This problem still exists in the game today. They don't want to go down that evil road again.

A combat style which poses zero risk of injury will never be as good as one that does, it's just simple logic.

This...

It has already been suggested that AA may be possibly approaching tempest. Rangers already possess AoE when multiple mob are close... distance places ranged combat out of melee retaliation and can often be out of spell ranges. While I think the rof can be a slight better - too much antiquates any other options.

[LargeMarge]

Ranged builds are perfectly viable right now... they just don't put out the same damage as a melee. Why is the "viability" of a build only measured in damage? a ranged character can take out a stat damaging/cursespewing bow and debuff a large group of monsters quite quickly. They can more easily deal with highly mobile targets that Melee need to chase while swinging. They can play a myriad of support roles through wands due to staying at the fringe of the fight.

Shade is right. If archer damage approached the even mark with the Melee then there would be chaos.

I guess dps is what the majority of the DDO community feels like should measure the "viability" of a build. I agree with you that ranged builds are viable, but when played by the right person. Not everyone can play an effective ranged toon. That is why I feel that a slight increase to the ranged attack speed will allow other players to effectively use a ranged build.

[Thorzian]

irivan is right, the king of ranged fighting is not a ranger at all but a fighter. kensai 1 nothing.. go kensai 3! 18 levels of fighter slpashed with something on an elf to qualify for arcane archer (elf). personally, im going with 1 bard level and 1 rogue level. the toon is level 14 atm and NOT a support character but one of the major dps'ers in many parties. the changes to arcane archer are only going to increase her power. put simply, hasted and haste boosted with manyshot (consider the ravager build which also needs the right situation for real dps) this is the highest dps toon in game... for 20 seconds out of every 2 min.

[Rhysem]

One cannot fix what is not broke.

If you must know the real reason why turbine will NEVER make archer any good, it's actually pretty simple.
Turbines first mmo - they made archery so insanely overpowered to the point that everyone who played melee quit the game. This problem still exists in the game today. They don't want to go down that evil road again.

A combat style which poses zero risk of injury will never be as good as one that does, it's just simple logic.

Pfft. Ranged was great till about 35 or 40. Then you hit the archer wall. AC was well designed up till about 40-45. They hadn't really prepped for how fast folks would get beyond that, and in the rush to create content, etc, they rapidly scaled up the diff so that archers were no longer really competitive with melees. Particularly with mad-debuffing-action going on -- when mobs can 1-hit you you can't afford to be without a shield out. Melees didn't like the debuffs either but had a shield to protect them. Mages had better enough AC via absurd-buffing a robe that archers (at least 1st-gen tank archers) really couldn't afford. Early on melee dominated by far by around 55-60 (vs ranged; mages just surpassed everyone once they knew their spells). After that the hybrids started making it confusing by turning everyone into a mage. I have a hard time calling an Og Archer an "archery ranged combatant." More like mage-debuffer, single-point-blank-arrow-to-the-face-killer.

Archers still held certain advantages -- melees couldn't fight and wall at the same time while archers (and mages) could. If you want to talk overpowered in AC, you need to talk Life Magic. (Preferably specialized. See also: Og anything, BattleMage, CLaW, etc.)

In any case I don't think the OP was strictly asking for equal damage. I think he's looking for competitive. You know, as in "my ranger/rogue with a bow should do damage better than when I'm dual-wielding muckdoom and muckbane and beating on something that isn't a slime with them." Or fixing "I'm more effective meleeing a perched mob by hopping up and down and swinging when I'm at the top of the jump than when using a bow." Yes I know it isn't helping that I don't have manyshot since I'm multiclassed, but still.

[barecm]

If they cannot increase the RoF, then a slight bump to the damage would be cool. I think that a high dex should account for some extra damage. Make it a feat if needs be. Dex bonus to damage.

[kingfisher]

Please, Please, PLEASE! Increase the rate of fire (RoF) for ranged weapons.

Also could you increase the distance for ranged sneak attacks

no and no

[grodon9999]

irivan is right, the king of ranged fighting is not a ranger at all but a fighter. kensai 1 nothing.. go kensai 3! 18 levels of fighter slpashed with something on an elf to qualify for arcane archer (elf). personally, im going with 1 bard level and 1 rogue level. the toon is level 14 atm and NOT a support character but one of the major dps'ers in many parties. the changes to arcane archer are only going to increase her power. put simply, hasted and haste boosted with manyshot (consider the ravager build which also needs the right situation for real dps) this is the highest dps toon in game... for 20 seconds out of every 2 min.

With the Ranger 20 capstone and manyshot while hasted I can fire 96 arrows in that 20 second period, can this do the same? Asking, not bragging as I'm a n00b and simply do not know.

I still don't see how it would be unbalancing if we could fire as fast as the mobs before the ranger 20 capstone. My AA can still swing her blades faster than she can shoot at level 20 (with the capstone).