Making Epic Dungeons

[ArkoHighStar]

While I like the idea of the Epic quests, I'm sorry if I just cannot get as excited about them as I would over actual new content. Epic, to me, just feels like a desperate attempt to extend content in the game by recycling old material with slightly new twists - and only moderately appealing carrots dangled to lure us in. The carrots themselves aren't new either... just Fabreeze'd versions of old stuff.


I'd be impressed by a 100% new Epic dungeon - and all that that implies. With Epic being the only setting that exists for that new dungeon. But, to be going back and messing around under the hood of old quests... It's just adding new grind to done-to-death quests, imho.

An interesting read, yes... but sadly nothing mentioned in the way of New.

I think going forward all new raids and the associated quests should have epic baked in when it goes live thus extending the new contents life span. And yes good idea on strictly epic content, not a ton but one quest per update cycle would be awesome, and keep people busy.

[totmacher]

the upgrades to the epic items system is sort of ridic, 10/15/etc quests 20 raids to grind out marginal upgrades is ridiculous, especially when there's no system to deconstruct greensteel items

[sephiroth1084]

Pretty sure everyone will just raise through them if they can't be found easily. No one is gimping their rogue for one pre-raid.

I don't know if groups are going to be able to deal with raising through that many traps without breaking everything they're wearing--there are a lot of traps in there, and epic quests tend to cause a lot of item wear on their own.

Figure, what, 4 deaths each through the horizontal slicing blades hall, 2 deaths each through the rune/lever hall, 1 death each heading up to the ladders/man-canons in final hall, and another death each going through doors to final fight.

That would be 8 deaths per person before actually dealing with epic monsters, missteps or more than the absolutely necessary backtracking, and I may be forgetting some traps.

[sephiroth1084]

/signed

I think that's a first, Gunga!

[Angelus_dead]

This quote from the article illustrates a failure of the epic mode:

What if you want something insanely challenging? What happens after you’ve out-leveled that adventure pack you purchased at lower levels?...
Epic difficulty accomplishes both of these things, and more!

Those are quite divergent goals, and a single "epic" mode cannot accomplish both (unless it possibly allowed multiple choices such as Normal Epic versus Elite Epic).

That is, the needs of player characters who are overlevel for Demon Sands (which means 14-20) are not really addressed by having something described as "insanely challenging". Think of the kinds of players who might not always complete Tower Of Despair, or think of the reasons why Dungeon Scaling was introduced in Unlimited update 0.

One of the serious problems with running Epic dungeons right now is that there is a fair possibility that the quest might take extended time to complete, and the prohibition against re-entry means that if you're forced to leave before the quest is over then you've screwed the other party members.

what are you supposed to do with an adventure pack if you really enjoyed playing the quests, but you’ve leveled past them so they’re just not a challenge any more? Adding the epic difficulty to the adventure packs really helps add value for your purchase – not only is the adventure pack good for when you’re at the appropriate level range for it, but now it’s still good once you reach the level cap of the game!

More of the same. That's a good objective, but epic mode doesn't really achieve it.

A bit of logic:
Fact 1: Tower of Despair (Normal) and Chains of Flame (Epic) are both listed as level 20.
Fact 2: Monsters in Tower (Normal) are much less powerful than in Chains (Epic).
Therefore, either Tower of Despair is too easy for level 20 characters, or Epic Chains of Flame is too hard.

Of course there is a range of power among level 20 characters, and one could say that Epic is meant only for the higher ranks... but in that case, it is misleading to advertise it as providing value to everybody who has outlevelled the normal adventures.

[Kalari]

K had a little brainstorm on that idea I had in my earlier post. Not sure if this will get any look at but figured what the hay id put it down.

Epic area: The realm of death...

Sources from the Phiarlan council has brought back word of a new cult amassing power. No one is quite sure of the goals of this group only that their members travel only the deepest dark of places and fear the suns bright light. Other things known is that any living being that is caught amongst their midst has not returned alive. Many have a feeling a gate to the realm of death has been opened but by whom or why is not yet known. If this is true then may the gods help us all anyone who has been resurrected or has the mark of death on them will be targetted by this fiercesome new enemy...

Creatures that could be included

Shadow stalkers (think fiends but instead of cold damage like the ones from Tod, these do vampiric/ghoul touch damage)

Banshee's its about time these sirens of scream had their appearance in game. Failure to withstand their horrible wail would cause even the most experience vets to go mad or die instantly.

Lich king, the mad king of Dolruth an epic lich who has tired of souls being pulled from his grip. Its time he made sure people respected his realm.

I have more ideas that id love to add to this for sure as well. There are so many undead badarsed creatures that id love to fight in an epic setting for sure.

[SimVerg]

I don't know if groups are going to be able to deal with raising through that many traps without breaking everything they're wearing--there are a lot of traps in there, and epic quests tend to cause a lot of item wear on their own.

Figure, what, 4 deaths each through the horizontal slicing blades hall, 2 deaths each through the rune/lever hall, 1 death each heading up to the ladders/man-canons in final hall, and another death each going through doors to final fight.

That would be 8 deaths per person before actually dealing with epic monsters, missteps or more than the absolutely necessary backtracking, and I may be forgetting some traps.

a. You can take off gear before running through traps.
b. Assuming the structure remains the same, you can't live through the traps, and you always get hit by the traps, you would die twice in west(ring + box, ddoor out each time), once in north(getting to the head + leavers), once in south(getting to the top). Also, someone will have to do the door to the final fight. More likely is that Von 5 will go in the ADQ Epic bin.

[sephiroth1084]

This quote from the article illustrates a failure of the epic mode:

Those are quite divergent goals, and a single "epic" mode cannot accomplish both (unless it possibly allowed multiple choices such as Normal Epic versus Elite Epic).

That is, the needs of player characters who are overlevel for Demon Sands (which means 14-20) are not really addressed by having something described as "insanely challenging". Think of the kinds of players who might not always complete Tower Of Despair, or think of the reasons why Dungeon Scaling was introduced in Unlimited update 0.

One of the serious problems with running Epic dungeons right now is that there is a fair possibility that the quest might take extended time to complete, and the prohibition against re-entry means that if you're forced to leave before the quest is over then you've screwed the other party members.

While I agree that the described goals aren't necessarily in sync with each other, I don't believe that they are necessarily that divergent--players who have purchased an adventure pack will have gained some experience (not the gamey kind) and may very well be ready for epic content. If not immediately upon reaching level 20, there will be that option open. It certainly raises the value of any adventure pack that gets this treatment in the long run.

Speaking of which...I'd kinda like to see epic versions of some early, non-raid content, like Shan-To Kor!

[moops]

epic Gianthold Would Indeed Be Epic

Especially If There Was A purple Dragon In There Somewhere That Dropped purple Dragonscales For The Pwnforge.

Garth

Indeed!

[Shandi]

Just want to state again (emphatically) how much I hate blanket immunities. There are so many other ways to address problem type spells/weapons to reduce their effectiveness without making them useless.

Examples:

Vorpals - with seeker bonuses any roll of 20 will almost certainly be confirmed by most competent tanks. Instead of addressing the obvious problem by making mobs flat out vorpal-immune do something else, like randomly assigning a chance that a mob will have deathward up or giving them "reverse seeker" enhancement which deducts from your confirm crit roll.

Stat damage - reduce proc rate aka giants in prey on the hunter

Instakill spells/weapons - double save dynamic or instakill equates not to death but a very large damage output equal to a significant chunk of their hp.

Blanket immunities just aren't fun.

Quote for Truth, I am completely 100% emphatically and absolutely am against blanket immunities, ESPECIALLY For trash mobs, named mobs and end bosses is one thing but trash mobs it is just unfun.

[sephiroth1084]

a. You can take off gear before running through traps.
b. Assuming the structure remains the same, you can't live through the traps, and you always get hit by the traps, you would die twice in west(ring + box, ddoor out each time), once in north(getting to the head + leavers), once in south(getting to the top). Also, someone will have to do the door to the final fight. More likely is that Von 5 will go in the ADQ Epic bin.

Yeah, duh. Just ignore me!

[shinmade]

While I like the idea of the Epic quests, I'm sorry if I just cannot get as excited about them as I would over actual new content. Epic, to me, just feels like a desperate attempt to extend content in the game by recycling old material with slightly new twists - and only moderately appealing carrots dangled to lure us in. The carrots themselves aren't new either... just Fabreeze'd versions of old stuff.


I'd be impressed by a 100% new Epic dungeon - and all that that implies. With Epic being the only setting that exists for that new dungeon. But, to be going back and messing around under the hood of old quests... It's just adding new grind to done-to-death quests, imho.

An interesting read, yes... but sadly nothing mentioned in the way of New.

Great points Mem.

I like the challenge of epic as much as anyone, but lets get real guys, we are running scripted instances, there is really nothing new in there.

Give us more 17-20 content. New content. Not rehashed instances.

[sephiroth1084]

Just want to state again (emphatically) how much I hate blanket immunities. There are so many other ways to address problem type spells/weapons to reduce their effectiveness without making them useless.

Examples:

Vorpals - with seeker bonuses any roll of 20 will almost certainly be confirmed by most competent tanks. Instead of addressing the obvious problem by making mobs flat out vorpal-immune do something else, like randomly assigning a chance that a mob will have deathward up or giving them "reverse seeker" enhancement which deducts from your confirm crit roll.

Stat damage - reduce proc rate aka giants in prey on the hunter

Instakill spells/weapons - double save dynamic or instakill equates not to death but a very large damage output equal to a significant chunk of their hp.

Blanket immunities just aren't fun.

There was a thread about this a while back in which one of the devs (I want to say Eladrin) posted a few times, in a discussion with myself, Borr, and others (prob A_D). Has anything come of that? Has there been any brainstorming, white-boarding, or even initial coding (holds breath) in trying to find a solution to this very frustrating and unfun mechanic?

[Angelus_dead]

There was a thread about this a while back in which one of the devs (I want to say Eladrin) posted a few times, in a discussion with myself, Borr, and others (prob A_D)

Few comments:
1. I've always suggested that whenever "Boss Immunity" deflects a special attack, the boss should pay for it by losing an amount of hitpoints as damage. If that kind of effect were given to epic mobs (whether or not bosses also get it), then you could potentially use Vorpal to make them die faster, but not instantly.

2. In D&D 4e, Vorpal just adds a lot of damage on crits. There's a reason they did that.

3. In around DDO module 3, Sap was changed to have no saving throw, so the Weighted weapon property had its Sap bonus replaced with a passive chance to stun on each swing. That was observed to be a minor game design flaw, because it was a percent chance of doom that couldn't be mitigated by the monster's Fortitude. But at its peak it worked like a "slow vorpal": A weighted 5% weapon would have about the same chance to immediately doom a monster as a vorpal did, except that it took a few auto-crits after he was stunned to finish him off. Tactically the effect was almost as good. But now that these epic mobs have immunity to Vorpal but not stunning, Weighted -> Maul/Pick is the best way to melee them.

[Angelus_dead]

But, to be going back and messing around under the hood of old quests... It's just adding new grind to done-to-death quests, imho.

Given their objective to recruit large numbers of all-new players, the designers cannot put much weight on quests being old as an argument against them. They would instead focus on their quality as they exist today.

[ArkoHighStar]

Given their objective to recruit large numbers of all-new players, the designers cannot put much weight on quests being old as an argument against them. They would instead focus on their quality as they exist today.

Also from a marketing perspective, it adds value to the adventure pack, in that they can state that it has epic level content features.

[Dark_Helmet]

One of the serious problems with running Epic dungeons right now is that there is a fair possibility that the quest might take extended time to complete, and the prohibition against re-entry means that if you're forced to leave before the quest is over then you've screwed the other party members.

Agreed.

More of the same. That's a good objective, but epic mode doesn't really achieve it.
A bit of logic:
Fact 1: Tower of Despair (Normal) and Chains of Flame (Epic) are both listed as level 20.
Fact 2: Monsters in Tower (Normal) are much less powerful than in Chains (Epic).
Therefore, either Tower of Despair is too easy for level 20 characters, or Epic Chains of Flame is too hard.

Of course there is a range of power among level 20 characters, and one could say that Epic is meant only for the higher ranks... but in that case, it is misleading to advertise it as providing value to everybody who has outlevelled the normal adventures.

Fact: a level 10 quest ran on Elite (level 12 by XP reward) does not equal to a level 12 quest ran on normal. This has been said by Devs in the past.

I daresay (dare, dare I say!) that a level 18 quest ran at Elite (what you equate to level 20) is not the same as a level 20 Quest ran on normal nor an Epic Quest.

[Memnir]

Given their objective to recruit large numbers of all-new players, the designers cannot put much weight on quests being old as an argument against them. They would instead focus on their quality as they exist today.

Also from a marketing perspective, it adds value to the adventure pack, in that they can state that it has epic level content features.

I know full well why they do it this way - and I don't disagree with those reasons at all. However, as a long-time player my feelings on why Epic, as currently implemented, is underwhelming. While I know they cannot cater expressly to vets, it would be unwise to ignore their views. After all, many of the new players will be vets one day themselves - and by the time they reach the ability to run things on Epic, there is a strong chance that the feelings of "been there/done that" will hit them too. From a long-view perspective, Febreeze-ing the old quests will only get them so far before the whole concept just becomes humdrum.

And, I'm not asking them to stop retrofitting old quests to be Epic... I'd like to see something new designed from Day-1 to be an Epic quest. That would be fantastic, and would, in my opinion, drum up far more interest across the board then slapping a new coat of difficulty on older quests.

[ArkoHighStar]

I know full well why they do it this way - and I don't disagree with those reasons at all. However, as a long-time player my feelings on why Epic, as currently implemented, is underwhelming. While I know they cannot cater expressly to vets, it would be unwise to ignore their views. After all, many of the new players will be vets one day themselves - and by the time they reach the ability to run things on Epic, there is a strong chance that the feelings of "been there/done that" will hit them too. From a long-view perspective, Febreeze-ing the old quests will only get them so far before the whole concept just becomes humdrum.

And, I'm not asking them to stop retrofitting old quests to be Epic... I'd like to see something new designed from Day-1 to be an Epic quest. That would be fantastic, and would, in my opinion, drum up far more interest across the board then slapping a new coat of difficulty on older quests.

No disagreement here, I thkn they need to do 3 things get the old ones done( from the marketing etc postion ) and make sure new quests have it built in, and also produce some epic only content.

[moorewr]

Or that regular Von you won't have to constantly reflag, in precise sequential order, for every dragon run.

oh, hurrah!