So if the ranger monk splash is overpowered... what do you do about it?

[Dark_Helmet]

Loss of abilities for using a functional multiclassing system?

The core of the system was always horribly broken. In any of my games, I flat out ignore mutliclassing penalties because they lower the fun value my players have.

...and this is how they broke it in DDO. Just like you ignored the rules written, so have the devs and created a bad situation which is just getting worse.

Yes, it works in your confined world with just your players, but it is very bad in a generic world with different play styles.The more they deviate from the core roles for one play style, the more they penalize others. And yes, it is a penalty because as the monsters get adjusted for the hard core players, the casual take the loss.

The rules are not horribly broken as that is your minority opinion (I have never, ever heard that arguement as feedback for broken rules at any convention). But, that is the nice thing about a game where you can make your own house rules.... In your case, I honestly don't see how it lowers the fun level to have an XP penalty (they just get to play MORE to level up ).


for the OP:
Doesn't sound like they will fix it properly by using the XP penalty. Not really a punishment for the power levellers.

[Tanka]

...and this is how they broke it in DDO. Just like you ignored the rules written, so have the devs and created a bad situation which is just getting worse.

Please, tell me how they can stop people from capping in a game with functionally infinite XP available by instituting a 20% XP hit from multiclassing.

[Borror0]

What I'd like to see is not a new "must have" shield grind, but perhaps a new Shield prefix/suffix that gives something good to S&B folks.

Even so, I doubt that will be enough. At best, it will be the most grindtastic change they could even implement.

The problem, with randomly generated tower shields and armors, is that it needs to be +5 mithril. Otherwise, why bother? Then, you've got to be lucky to get anything worth talking about on the same tower shield. You've got better chances to win at the lottery than to find this in all your playtime. Let's face it, adding a good enchantment on shields will simply result in a bigger grind than adding a named shield.

That said, I agree with you in that I think named gear is the way to fix it.

Named gear keeps on getting better and better, as time passes by. We've now reached a point where the gear in DDO is almost uniquely crafted or named gear. There's the rare w/p and +2 tomes, or the very rare powerful Greater Banes, but as a general rule random loot is a joke. If Turbine keeps on adding better and better named gear, they will soon reach a point of no return and random loot will stop mattering.

Hopefully, Turbine will prevent this from happening. Keeping random loot attractive should be of great importance to them. It is much easier to put a chest in a dungeon than to craft named gear worth looting for each dungeon you create. Of course, they could craft named gear that will spawn in chest randomly (Ã* la Sunblade), but it is still less cost efficient. And, adding to this system will require more effort (creating a new enchantment vs creating a few new pieces of equipment).

Also, more obviously, putting one shield as the 'new best thing to have' is kinda lame. It reads "You must have this to be good at S&B", which is a turn off for many both in creating a new character or playing an existing character. Hard to achieve loot should not be required to be good at your fighting style.

Better? Yes.

Good? No.

Of course, there is a middle ground where they can put different shields, varying in power and difficulty to obtain, but then the question is: is it really more cost-effective to go that way? Personally, I think not, but I could easily be mistaken. But, in the perspective than I am right, either way is a lot to ask from Turbine. And, that's why I am worry that Turbine will fall into the loot trap.

I think DDO needs better shields/shield enchantments but...

[GlassCannon]

1) Cap WIS AC bonus at either a % per Monk, or a 1 Per Monk Level with Pures being unlimited.

2) Cap Dodge AC bonuses at +4 or +5

3) Cap total AC at ((level*3)/2)*5

more to come later.

[Shyver]

Change Monk wisdom bonus to centered only.

This reduces the DPS done by the monk splash without penalizing the monk class itself while at the same time doesn't completely invalidate the builds that took the monk splash.

Change the favored enemy damage so that it works properly. This will further bring ranger DPS in-line with other melee builds.

[Borror0]

2) Cap Dodge AC bonuses at +4 or +5

Rather, changing the current dodge bonuses in non-Dodge bonuses and simply being more cautious about the future would be a better idea.

Chattering Ring, Dragontouched armor and IR's Dodge bonus should be changed into something else. IR should get its own bonus type, which will be used on multiple new pieces of named loot. Chattering ring and Dragontouched armor should be changed into something else, of the same bonus type. Rings with lower bonuses of that new no-stacknig bonus type should also be created and easier to obtain.

As for Chaosgarde, it can keep its Dodge bonus but something should be done for non-lawful characters. Currently, non-lawful characters without UMD loose on 2 AC, without trade off. Going lawful or having UMD greater than 20 is a no brainer if you care about AC. It would be healthier for the game if there would be a choice to make there as it would make alignment choice matter more.

But, a cap is the cheaper/quicker fix...

3) Cap total AC at (level/2)*5

Erm, why?

[Turial]

.....
3) Cap total AC at ((level*3)/2)*5

more to come later.

Huh?

16*3 = 48/2 = 24 *5 = 120 AC....

That is not much of a cap.

Even after 4 more levels it is unlikely that players who can reach 80 AC will be gaining an additional 40 AC.

[Turial]

Change Monk wisdom bonus to centered only.

This reduces the DPS done by the monk splash without penalizing the monk class itself while at the same time doesn't completely invalidate the builds that took the monk splash.

Change the favored enemy damage so that it works properly. This will further bring ranger DPS in-line with other melee builds.

Unless they change the diversity of mobs, it is less likely that changing the basic damage progression of FE will have much effect on rangers. All rangers have evil outsider as a FE and with new mods there would simply be a 3 to 15 day period before rangers fully speced over to the new dominate FE.

[Shyver]

Unless they change the diversity of mobs, it is less likely that changing the basic damage progression of FE will have much effect on rangers. All rangers have evil outsider as a FE and with new mods there would simply be a 3 to 15 day period before rangers fully speced over to the new dominate FE.

True they would still be tops against (most likely) evil outsiders but it would help reduce the "best at everything" vibe that Favored Enemy is tossing out at the moment.

[Borror0]

Unless they change the diversity of mobs, it is less likely that changing the basic damage progression of FE will have much effect on rangers. All rangers have evil outsider as a FE and with new mods there would simply be a 3 to 15 day period before rangers fully speced over to the new dominate FE.

But they would have to increase less the diversity of mobs than they would if keeping the same progression.

[Juggle]

So is it true they are making a fix on this for sure? I just wish they would let us know ahead of time until waiting after I've invested millions of plat and shroud items on my AC Cleric/Monk. That way I could avoid even wasting my time and money on builds that will be changed anyway. If this change does happen, it will seriously give me reason to quit...

[Shyver]

So is it true they are making a fix on this for sure? I just wish they would let us know ahead of time until waiting after I've invested millions of plat and shroud items on my AC Cleric/Monk. That way I could avoid even wasting my time and money on builds that will be changed anyway. If this change does happen, it will seriously give me reason to quit...

It's all just speculation.

Everyone, for the most part, agrees that a balance is in order, it's just how to achieve that balance is the crux of the argument.

But no the dev's haven't said word one about it.

[Angelus_dead]

But they would have to increase less the diversity of mobs than they would if keeping the same progression.

Yeah, there's no reasonable way they can make top-end raid bosses substantially more diverse than 5 types. It's not even likely they can have even 5 top-end raid bosses at once (although it would be really good to try).

Besides, it's really bad system design for the character mechanics to tell quest builders "Sorry, you can't use giants, undead, evil outsiders, dragons, or aberrations as your next enemy group. How about Oozes or Animals?" Diversity for diversity's sake leads to silly storylines.

[noinfo]

Not every build has to be Ranger/Monk/Rogue. There's Cleric/Monk, Paladin/Monk, Rogue/Monk...

Oh, right, proving a point here.

Forcing any sort of artificial loss due to multiclassing is deliberately against what the system intends. Is the Monk Wisdom bonus to AC overpowering? For certain subsets of builds, absolutely.

What an intelligent Developer should do is limit the amount of Wisdom that can be granted to your AC based on a ratio of Monk:Total Level. So, at the moment, a level one Monk splash would receive 1/16th of his Wisdom score to AC (rounded up, for fairness). In other words, 1 AC, unless he somehow has a +17 Wisdom bonus (that's a 44 Wisdom, by the way).

Will it anger lots of those who did the Monk splash long before this change was introduced? Yes. Which is also why a respec mechanism needs to be in place before such a radical change.

Ok so lets have a look at a few things here:

1. These people with high ac's have dedicated not just 1 but 2 stats to this.
2. They are already capped in ac if they wear armour so they are already disadvantaged here [if you want to be really worried about ac, try seeing what would happen if these characters did not have to worry about armour dex limits)
3. The ac bonus is far less an issue then people who take 2 levels of monk or rogue to get evasion.
4. Perhaps we should limit the unlocking of skills base on level taken, ie no more umd (the most powerful skill in game) based on 1 level of rogue or bard.
5. In the past, the only way to have the best ac was to be a dwarf due to enhancements.
6. If you want s/b more valid, give all classes a s/b enhancment line that means something, +2 per rank would be very useful and make it worthwile to give up the 2nd weapon for in some conditions. No extra bonus is needed with armour as it already gives best protection in game +5mfp or dt full plate > ac 8 bracers only the dex of the wearer makes up the difference, didn't invest in a high dex? dont complain about your ac, the same as if you dont invest in str, dont complain about your pure dps. Worried that high dex characters might start using a shield? well, they won't get their wis bonus and that is what the complaint is about anyway, also why should people with the highest dexs not be the hardest to hit? Particulary at high level? That dragon that can chew through mfp like it is butter but can't hit the elf/halfling with lightning like reflexes seems reasonable to me.
7. Instead of the garbage finesse feat, make all light/finessable weapons automatically require dex to hit, while I appreciate why barbs etc use wop rapiers it does seem like a joke.
8. While we are talking limiting things, lets limit str damage based on weapon type, just like dex and armour, the might barberian raging with his wop dagger? don't really sound right to me.
9. We could always go back to 2nd edition and limit con hp bonuses to non fighter levels, lets watch all the dwarfs/wf cry.

To me this is just the latest knee jerk reaction to the fotm. There are already major balance issues listed above that should be looked at as well.

I have 2 toons that use monk in them for various things including ac. 1 is a pure ac build, the second is a str ac build.
Both have reasonable ac's (neither has icy or chattering rings or dt +3 dodge bonus, I must have been one of the few to miss out before the adjusted loot tables in the subterain), the biggest issue to me is while I expect my ac build to be harder to hit, it should lack the killing power of my str build. In all except red named it doesn't. Make DPS matter more and things will start to ballance out, vary mob types or reduce the categories of fe and things will start to get back to ballance.

The biggest issue this game has is it's difference between the haves and the have nots.
Chattering ring
to an extent Icy Rainments
Are two ac items without peer and that is a major issue, IMO there should be the uber hard to get stuff like this but alway lesser more readily available items of a lesser value. If this was implemented then it should be considered to allow DT dodge bonus to stack with the chattering ring (best bonus for FP toons), this can be managed easily, for example the ring in Invaders that gives a +2 Natural Armour bonus become a dodge bonus. This bonus being a ring should be set not to stack with other ring dodge bonuses. A +1 ring dodge bonus could be found somewhere else but unbound. This actually makes an item useful again (considering how cheap +3 bark pots are and they give a better ac anyway) and reduces the differnce between toons with and without. The with should always be better because they put in the time and the effort, however the withouts are not 7 pts of ac behind. Shroud crafting was a step in the right direction, DT armour was 2 steps back and needs to be revised badly, both should include shields.

[noinfo]

Yeah, there's no reasonable way they can make top-end raid bosses substantially more diverse than 5 types. It's not even likely they can have even 5 top-end raid bosses at once (although it would be really good to try).

Besides, it's really bad system design for the character mechanics to tell quest builders "Sorry, you can't use giants, undead, evil outsiders, dragons, or aberrations as your next enemy group. How about Oozes or Animals?" Diversity for diversity's sake leads to silly storylines.

They could perhaps narrow the fe types though, eg Lawful Evil Outsiders, rather than evil outsiders. Hill Giants, Stone Giants, Ogres etc or something similar.

[noinfo]

I think that after moving so far away in terms of enhancements and stats in DDO, perhaps the armor itself should be reworked.

The 'Best' base heavy armor is full plate, 8 AC, 1 dex
The 'Best' base light armor is padded, 1 AC, 8 Dex

Of course there are things like mithril and enhancements to allow more AC to be gained from this gear, but this is the core gear, and it's based around PnP rules where most content is not extremely far from the 20-30 AC mark.

Maybe there needs to be something better than full plate introduced for heavy armor wearers. In theory, plate wearers trained in combat should be the most surviveable.

So if a dragon was going to bite you would you:
1. Hope that your armour was going to somehow stop it
2. Know that your god like reflexes and insight are going to get you out of the way?

As it stands people without high dex can get the best ac out of heavy armour, this limits the high dex people all the way though to higher levels when they finally begin to shine.

Adding an enhancement line for shields is IMO the way to increase S/B ac bonus and encorage the use of shields and requires some investment that s/b are not otherwise reqired to do ie no stat investment or splashing [grind not withstanding]

[Hurley]

If everyone is rubbed so wrong about the splashes in classes. I don't think you should penatlize the people that created then, they where just playing the game how it was created. So they figured out how to make a awesome class, and for them doing so you want to put restictions....I don't think its fair to blame..restrict....penatilize..them. How about you build your own...and if you don't like those classes how about you find your own class splash build and build it and like it..I understand that DnD is way different that DDO but the people that pay for this game shouldn't take a hit for the game developers mistakes..The Developers should have know this from the begining when introducing new content.

Yes I know I miss spelled some things....I don't care this isn't a spelling contest.

[Borror0]

How about you build your own...

"Building one" won't solve the problem, whether it is the loss of a loved character or greater (and frustrating) constraints.

I elaborated more on this topic here.

[...] the people that pay for this game shouldn't take a hit for the game developers mistakes.

True. That's why respecs should be implemented.

But, even without respecs, people are already 'paying' for their mistakes.

[GlassCannon]

So if a dragon was going to bite you would you:
1) Use the combination of your obscene Strength, godlike Reflexes and impermeable Fullplate to completely nullify the dragon's attack.
2) Get eaten because you tried to deflect it with your Monk training while holding Rapiers

A very strong person wears fullplate like a not-so-strong one wears cloth. Example taken: SCA Mock Battles with real steel fullplate and bamboo/duct tape swords(so they don't kill each other, they just bruise the cr@p out of one another instead).

Edited for additional physics inclusion.

[Nick_RC]

Edited for additional physics inclusion.

Rofl. Nice addition.