Gather round! Lets talk about exploits!

[moorewr]

This...I disagree with. Way before anyone knew any exploits for Part 2 of the shroud I know several people that could solo several of the enemies (not orthon or devil). Heck, grab a WF wizard and you can solo the Trog, Kasquick, and the earth elemental easy. Or grab a ranger and solo the fire elemental. Either way, part 2 has never been a problem for me, I don't think anyone needs to exploit that part. I'm sure people do it off of the convenience.

My sorcerer can easily solo Damasz (well, if a kind cleric gives me Freedom of Movement). I bet my cleric could solo the trog and kobold.. so could my sorcerer with deathblock on, since they burn.. I like red names that burn. The Orthon and the Devil I might get punked by. It would be dicey with either of my shroud runners.. it was a shock the first time I realized half the party had cursed wounds and weren't healing when I cast cure mass.. let to a few truly hairy moments while I dug for remove curse wand. Then, after some cursing started casting resurrections while the old goat beat on me..

[suitepotato]

Every game out there has due to its design limitations and those of its designers' capacities a very limited number of ways of being able to win them.

Using the shortcomings of this game's design and coding is not necessarily an exploit.

The flaming chicken bug is a common bug and can happen with any monsters and should not be considered an exploit. I've seen it happen during a melee beatdown on him. Just stops responding or attacking. Every so often turns, says something, moves a space or two to one side, but otherwise doesn't attack.

I think this is the biggest one on everyone's mind and why we're calling it an exploit... I mean sometimes... Ugh. People need to try decaf or something. It's a bug, not an exploit. and if we quit a quest every time the code bugs in our favor, we'd be quitting quests constantly.

[doodooman]

The onus is on turbine to fix it not us, we can report "exploiters" all day, certain "exploits" will happen whether or not people activly try to. Turbine needs to address that, dont blame us, you guys are the ones programming the game.

[Theboz]

im neither for or against exploiting, i would rather do it the correct way.


But, this thread is just going to start turning people against each other and cause more problems then just exploiting.

[Anastasios]

This...I disagree with. Way before anyone knew any exploits for Part 2 of the shroud I know several people that could solo several of the enemies (not orthon or devil). Heck, grab a WF wizard and you can solo the Trog, Kasquick, and the earth elemental easy. Or grab a ranger and solo the fire elemental. Either way, part 2 has never been a problem for me, I don't think anyone needs to exploit that part. I'm sure people do it off of the convenience.

Yeah convenience for sure, especially when you have people that shouldn't really be in there to begin with and you allow them to come along for the ride, hmm, I think bringing players not as good as others into the Shroud could be an exploit especially if you tell them to sit in a corner and just wait.

Best exploit ever though-picking up someone's stone in Jumpy Jump when you have rez capabilities and taking he/she's stone to the end chest and rezzing, so they can get their stone so they can get keyed. How many times has this been done? I think that's pretty much an exploit since you also have to pass the rez shrine on your way up And you wonder why people use the tactics they have been using in the Shroud...makes a bit of sense to me.

[Darth_Sizzle]

LOL

When I saw this thread, I was thinking man, this is going to be closed in 0.2 seconds flat with infraction points for the (apparently out of his/her mind) OP.

Oops OP is Q!!!

[Sambvca]

LOL

When I saw this thread, I was thinking man, this is going to be closed in 0.2 seconds flat with infraction points for the (apparently out of his/her mind) OP.

Oops OP is Q!!!

/signed
300 points
Lifetime ban for Q

[HumanJHawkins]

Because we not want to highlight in such a prominent place, which quests/areas have known exploits. We not deny it, but its better to keep it in the DL as much as possible.

You have come up with this seemingly reasonable decision based on bad data. You are under the assumption that which quests have exploits is not common knowledge. Therefore, keeping it quiet is a reasonable way to prevent the spread of cheat info.

However, the reality is that these exploits become common knowledge very quickly regardless of what measures are taken. Really... 90% of the server who are at a level capable of playing a given quest know about exploits in greater detail than just "There is some kind of exploit somewhere in this quest" within a week of the exploit being discovered.

Based on this data, it would be more appropriate to encourage people to put things like "Clean Run" into their LFGs. First, because it does still keep info from the few who don't know what "Clean Run" would mean. But also because it helps to marginalize cheaters without harming anyone else. It is basically saying, "I play by the rules and I'm willing to stand up for honesty. And if you want to cheat, do it somewhere else." The more people who do this, the better the game will be. And the less comfortable cheaters will feel in the game.

[Quanefel]

The onus is on turbine to fix it not us, we can report "exploiters" all day, certain "exploits" will happen whether or not people activly try to. Turbine needs to address that, dont blame us, you guys are the ones programming the game.

If no one is out there informing them of the exploits or bug reporting those exploits, it is not Turbines fault. If people purposely keep quiet or tell others to keep quiet about a bug, then it heads down the path of simply cheating the game. When this happens, Turbine is not at fault for the exploit, the fault lies with us players for not informing them, over and over again to fix one issue or another. I think we all should understand that fixing a programming error is not as simple as someone might suggest, its complicated and takes awhile. Yet when no one is really willing to report it for fear of being labeled a "narc" or a "party-crasher", that does not help get things fixed. Nor does blaming Turbine for our inaction to HELP with the issue.

Turbine seems to be addressing this subject with this very thread, please people don't ruin it if you are for or against exploits. Take advantage of this chance to help the game along. Maybe help make it better for everyone involved. Turbine needs our help AS much as we need theirs.

[Altarboy]

im neither for or against exploiting, i would rather do it the correct way.


But, this thread is just going to start turning people against each other and cause more problems then just exploiting.

I neither agree nor disagree with this post

[mehlinda]

I think if they had a very clear list of: if you do THIS and we catch you, your account could be closed, then I'd imagine most players will behave. At least, I'd really hope so. It's a tricky situation for a game that is not flooding with players, and one that lives off subscriptions, and I'd hate to see us lose people.

Blizzard has been banning tens of thousands of diabloII/ warcraft III / starcraft accounts for people using things like maphack, bots, and other external applications that are specifically used to cheat or disrupt other players since day 1. But I've NEVER seen blizzard ban someone in one of those games for taking advantage of a natural game bug using only the game itself. In fact many game bugs have turned into admired strategies, i.e. starcraft pro players using burrow, stacking units over other burrowed ones, and bringing them all up at once so when they spread out the game will force some units through a normally unpassable barrier.

My MMO experience is limited to just guildwars and DDO though, so I'm not sure what flys in MMO land. But Turbine has the right to enforce whatever rules they want, so if they do decide to ban people for taking advantage of a game bug without using any external programs, then I really really really hope everyone stops doing them and we don't lose too many players.

hmmmmm
Maybe instead of banning, something else could be done? i.e., make all the players who cheated glow bright pink and have -1 on the loot tables for a few days? I am serious here. lol. I don't care how you play as long as you're playing!

How about take away all their Shroud completions which included " free beatdown night" after the first offense ( can't blame a guy for trying something once right) ? No, seriously, how can they come up for a punishment in retrospect for something they had no set stance against? At least with this policy if they get it out in the open, most will be unwilling to take the risk. The best defense for the Shroud tactic people had was calling it "a hidden feature" since nowhere in the rules was it specifically called what everyone knows it is. While I would listen to this defense and wonder to myself what these people would do with RL situations with similar ethical boundaries I would want to pound my head against the wall that the world has to be this way, but it's much like the Bolas recipes in the Shroud...gotta have a little of everything in this world or there would be no balance I guess....philosophical differences aside on the issue, after doing it as a matter of routine it really boils down to either greed or laziness or possibly boredom,,,none of which is good for DDO...

[moorewr]

I neither agree nor disagree with this post

As for me, I'm in favor of turning people against each other. Please, continue the petty bickering!

[Altarboy]

As for me, I'm in favor of turning people against each other. Please, continue the petty bickering!

bickerbickerbicker petty bickerbickerbickerbickerbickerbicker petty bickerbickerbicker

[Anastasios]

BTW, let's take a look back on exploits and what has happened to them in the past-let's begin with our favorite....THRENAL SOUTH FAT LOOT WOOT, what is this ah crud my weapons are breaking...incorporation of slimes, cut back on some of the people running up there that shouldn't have been, but you know what, I was still up there finishing South 3 and scoring my loot, this of course led to the STATIC REWARDS---->Retribution yay, no more Vorpals boo, then uhoh, the everpopular RANSACKED MESSAGE, aww shux, guess it's time to farm those chests in SOUTH 3, CO6 pt 5 (yes the one in the lava all the way on the bottom) and pt 6 and GIANT CAVES WOOT. UHOH, TEMPEST IS FINALLY BACK ONLINE WOOT----->who's got the VORPAL SCIMMY yeyahh oh and who's GOT THE VORPAL HEAVY MACE WOOT, what VORPAL IS NO LONGER CRIT ***!!! More bad news news, they did what to my DIVINE FAVOR aww no fair. Uh oh, they finally made some changes to the GIANT CAVES **** AGGRO RUNAWAY....VELAH is DEAD woot, uhoh, it's not as ez as it was before, guard dogs sheet sheet I hate guard dogs, FF to GIANTHOLD HOLY SMOKE HOLY SMITE, I am the master of all these mobs all bow before the might of my CLERIC!!! (Forgive if I missed a few I could only take so many Velah, Threnal, and CO6 runs b4 I took my first hiatus, so if I missed any feel free to pop em in-new paragraph for clarity)

Oh and I will leave out anything after coz I'm sure you had a rough time reading this anyways

You see where I am going with this?? All of these were considered to be exploits at one point or another, or must have been because Turbine addressed these issues...I was guilty of using every single one and I expect due punishment for them, oh wait, I do pay my dues for this game, and changes have been made to where I can't do some of the things I used to (HOUSTON I BELIEVE WE HAVE FOUND A PROPER SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM)

So it is the community's responsibility to tell Turbine hey, this needs to be fixed, hey this is broken...am I getting through to ya, they will fix it, but what they can't fix is somebody who can send a PM or ingame request about someone 'CHEATING' FFS, deal with it-when they fix it they will, until then all bets should be off because I can't wait to see the complaints of 'ohh, I never cheated I am Pious here on my throne, why should they be able to do that'. And for you worrying about pt2 of the shroud or pt5 or getting busted because you are in a PUG and they are doing that, well then change your gamestyle, find people who don't play like that and get on with your bad self, you think they will ban you??

I'm still here look at me, am I going to get the Chains and Shackles so the KK can do things he always wanted to do to my Cleric (he is Sexy btw, many people have told him so ), so be it, but I think it's ridiculous how everyone who has played this game for at least 2 maybe 3 heck maybe 1 month at least has exploited at one time or another, and if you disagree, then wow---->you are too uber for me to ever group with.

[Alexander_Illusioni]

Has anyone gotten back PM answers, to specific questions raised about exploits, from Kommunity Kobold yet? I have not. Just kind of wondering if Turbine is now trying to figure out what specifically constitutes "taking advantage with no risk or cost", because this definitely is not clear cut. People will want to interpret this the way they see it.

[WeaselKing]

. Just kind of wondering if Turbine is now trying to figure out what specifically constitutes "taking advantage with no risk or cost", because this definitely is not clear cut.

QFT

[Dark_Helmet]

does anybody else think pretending to be a Kobold in order to address exploits is silly?

am i being too cynical?

Can't we just talk about exploits like mature adults?

I think the point of doing it as a Kobold is also to bring forth:

T H I S__I S__J U S T__A__G A M E .... We are supposed to have fun! Role Playing is part of the game.

Be serious in PMs but please don't blame people who are enjoying the roly playing aspect.

I guess being vicious and rude to each other is some people's ideas of being mature adults and when I see those posts, I start getting mad. But, when I see ones that are done in character, I am reminded it is a game and I relax again.

Can't say that without this: Thanks Kargon for doing it so much and making me laugh!

Not to mention the Pink attack from Rowan

..now back to your regularly scheduled the flame fest...
[Puts some Marshmellows on skewers and holds them near the thread].... mmm Smores.

[The_Mighty_Cube]

Because you've ignored my warning that this thread is not for flamewars or debates on the policy, this discussion is now closed until further notice.

We'll see if we can resume this discussion another time.

Feel free to continue PMing Kommunity Kobold if you have questions about specific activity or exploits, and he respond appropriate, in private and in public when he gets a chance.

[Kommunity_Kobold]

Hello all!

Hope your weekend went well. Before I open this thread again, I just wanted to take the time to clarify a few things that the community has expressed concern about. I'll also answer some of the questions I received in the 1,098, 943 PM's over the weekend

• First and foremost, the entire intention of this policy change was to enable the Turbine community team to establish a list of specific exploits which would be considered an offense. We certainly are going to do so, and I understand that need for such a list. Unfortunately, such a list will take time to build, as I sift through my PM's and get specific information on each exploit. There are many issues within the game, that can be very complicated at times, and before we designate them as a ban-able offense or acceptable tactic, we absolutely must understand every detail of each exploit. If you can be patient, we will start building this list within the next week or so.

• Second, while we do put the responsibility on players to ensure the safety of their own account, we certainly do not expect you to keep other players out of trouble or play police when they do. That is indeed our job. There are players who take it upon themselves to volunteer when players get out of line, which is admirable, but we'd like to clarify our policy on player police: Please do not come to the forums and shout to the top of the mountains when you've found someone exploiting. The best and only acceptable way to report that player is by sending a ticket to in-game support, or sending a PM to me, Kommunity Kobold. These method's will ensure the most prompt and thorough investigation. It's against the forum guidelines to come to the forum and make accusations, whether they are true or false.

• Third, the LFM panel is not for any communication, other than to recruit specific classes for specific quests. Comments which discuss exploits in anyway, will not be acceptable. Now, I know this is a very controversial point, and we've made the following determinations to help quell any concern over this practice
  • It is DEFINITELY acceptable to place such comments in your character bio, and/or WHO panel, as long as they don't specify quests, or specific exploits or details of exploits. For example: "I don't exploit" or "I play clean." is acceptable. " I don't "spin monsters" in "The Quest for Lewt" because doing so is stupid." is not acceptable.

• Next, there have been questions on whether or not monsters spontaneously "going stupid" is an exploit. If you are specifically causing this to take advantage of it, yes, it is an exploit which can result in loss of game privileges. However, there have been reports where monsters stop responding seemingly on their own. In cases such as this, the best course of action would be to:

• File a bug report and/or send for help from a GM.
• Continue the quest as normal, which may include fighting said monsters.
• If a GM responds before you finish the quest, simply explain the situation, and go from there.
• Avoid, if possible, triggering such behavior next time you run the quest. If it happens again, simply start over from step 1.

This will ensure that we're very aware of severe bugs, as well as indicate that you are not intending to exploit, while ensuring that you do not have to start the quest over again.

• Lastly, there has been discussion on what to do if a member of your group intends to exploit the quest you are in, and you are not comfortable with doing so. In this case there are three choices:

• Go along with the behavior that has been published as a ban-able offense, putting your game account at risk.
• Don't participate in the exploit behavior, and quietly submit an in-game help ticket on the players who are taking part. An investigation will be made by the GM's (though the GM's will not be able to discuss the discipline of other players with you), and continue playing the quest without participating in the illegal exploit.
• Leave the group politely, indicating that this is not the way you play the game.

I hope this clears up any confusion that the original discussion may have caused, especially our intentions regarding having a published exploit list.

I'm going to go ahead and open up this forum again. Any and all discussion or questions regarding exploits should go here, however, remember that detail, accusations, and policy debate are not allowed anywhere on the forums, including this thread.

In the next couple days I will be filtering through the PM's I've received and I will answer them in a separate thread as well as work on that list. Thanks in advance for your patience!

-Kommunity Kobold

[Yaga_Nub]

Thanks for re-opening this and making those clarifications.