Eliminate Raid Prerequisites for DQ and VON

[Hendrik]

You should have to run the VoN/DQ prerequisites a certain number of times (once, five times, ten, I don't really care) and then you should only have to run VoN5/6 and Zawabi's Revenge.

This solution has been suggested time and again and one I have always been in favor of. But we MUST have a marker to reach for this to happen.

I have always suggested completing the Quest chains and Raid on ALL difficulties before you can bypass.

[MysticTheurge]

sigh.. From my view it is raid that has never really reached the state the developers wanted - a raid with fast twitch puzzles that a significant % of the gaming population played. Stop trying to get caught up in the minutia and grasp the meaning of the post. There has not been a playable new raid since the reaver. That quite frankly is unacceptable..

Right, and I'm not saying they shouldn't fix the Abbot. I think they should fix everything that's broken.

I just have a problem with the "Stop 'fixing' old stuff, it wasn't broken, you should be doing new stuff instead" attitude that a lot of people have. The dev team doesn't just randomly mess around with old content (though I've suggested that they probably should revisit quests that were released early in the game's lifespan). They do what they do for a reason.

If they're fixing something old it's because it's not in the "state that the developers wanted."

[Aspenor]

This solution has been suggested time and again and one I have always been in favor of. But we MUST have a marker to reach for this to happen.

I have always suggested completing the Quest chains and Raid on ALL difficulties before you can bypass.

I like this idea.

[Tanka]

Well, that's a key point. I'd love everyone to be able to easily run raids too. I don't particularly want to exclude anyone from the fun. It would be great if we could all run any raid at any time, without any prerequisite and timer.
But let's face it, whether it's a good thing or not, it's the grinds that keep many powergamers busy with DDO.

No, what keeps powergamers is the loot grind. And for those with all the raid loot they need, that means Vol Elite, Litany Elite, POP Elite, Ghosts (for the casters and the odd melee that makes it in), Fleshmakers Elite... 10 times a week, every week.

A quest chain as annoying and pitifully easy as VoN1-4 isn't a grind, it's a waste of time they sleep through so they have a shot at their SoS or KDS.

Here is another idea. Maybe put the pre-reqs on the Reaver and Titan. Have to re run PoP, Crucible, and Madstone, without the relic collection. HiPS, Ghola Fan, Slavers for Titan.

You want all the raids the same. Here you go.

No. That would shut me off from raiding ever again. If they did that with the Abbot, especially, having to rerun all pre-reqs and re-run the preraid, it'd kill raiding for the entire populace.

What we want is less filler. VoN1-4 after L12 is filler content. DQ pre-reqs at L14 is filler content. We get to blaze through a few quests on Normal (because why should we bother with Elite unless for favor?) in record time (again) and then run two raids, only to repeat it three days hence. All it becomes is filler content. Something to chew up time.

So you can PUG VoN1-4 or DQ pre-reqs? What about off-peak players? People overseas? People who, when they PUG, they see two groups forming and about as many characters logged in? They wait for the weekend in hopes somebody PUGs a raid or a raid prep group so they can raid with their friends before they have to get some semblance of sleep before their week begins anew.

[Hendrik]

I like this idea.

Thx Asp.

We HAVE to achieve a milestone, as a player, before we can 'bypass'.

Completing them on Elite just seems rather logical. I mean, who does not want the Favor in the first place for the Quests/Raid?

A great many options to make this a viable solution and still keep it 'DDO-ish'.

[Emili]

I actually agree with you... almost.

Which is why I think they should simply change the NPCs options after completing the raids. I think big changes like altering AtDQ to be a 12 person raid would be ultimately wasted time. We have little enough new content to actually go around doing major modifications to existing raids.

That being said... if you honestly believe that changing the dragon and DQ to no longer require the entire chain would actually take developer time away from adding new raids... I simply don't agree with you.

I would like more new content also... however I do believe that changing the script when you talk to Barrow or Zawabi to reset you're quest to actual flagging seems very little dev time to me.

[Dark_Helmet]

So, Turbine, when are we going to do something about the Demon Queen and the VON series?

Haven't we ran VON1-4 enough? And the three (or four) pre-quests for DQ are just killing our time in game. Can we get a word on whether this is something we can take a look at? Right now, the Reaver is just overcooked to death. It's time we get some answers on what you guys plan on doing.

The DQ and the VON series are great raids, but the time spent flagging every week is just making it to where they will without a doubt fall off the map (if they haven't already).

(not signed)

That is like asking "can we just get all the loot without the fight?"

The idea is to earn it (granted you might be bored running it). They could always make the raid one single very long quest where the casual people can't finish in a night... or leave it where people can do it at their own pace: one quest at a time as they have time. I know a group of people who only get on for an hour or two and that would just not let them run anymore.... the power gamers would win yet again!

[MysticTheurge]

That is like asking "can we just get all the loot without the fight?"

No. Honestly, it's not.

[EspyLacopa]

No. Honestly, it's not.

Indeed. For Velah, they still have to go through VoN5. For the Demon Queen, it's just a boss fight. Rather similar to the Reaver Raid in that respect. It just doesn't have a puzzle after the fight is all.

[Boulderun]

Actually, most of the proposals retain DQ1 as a prereq. Being a 6 man instance it still presents some degree of the same problems, but changing that is probably unfeasable, and at any rate wouldn't be as significant an improvement as removing the chains/raiyum/blood requirement.

[xberto]

I say you leave things how they are and work on the future. There are some new folks (maybe a few) coming into the game and I thinks its best they get to experience these great quests/raids as we did. Leave the classics alone and move forward.

[MysticTheurge]

There are some new folks (maybe a few) coming into the game and I thinks its best they get to experience these great quests/raids as we did.

Even under the most liberal of proposals in this thread, you'd still have to do all the prerequisite quests at least once, meaning new people would experience these quests.

In fact, I'd say the bigger threat to new people being able to experience these quests the way we all did would be getting in a PUG that just wants to zerg through these quests to get raid flagged ASAP. The chance of that happening is significantly higher under the current system than it would be under any of the proposed systems.

If you were to eliminate the need to constantly reflag for these raids, you'd have a much better chance of getting people in your group who actually want to do these quests. And, even those old jaded people who dislike these quests now might find themselves wanting to rerun these classics on occasion for the fun of it rather than having to run them repeatedly.

[Angelus_dead]

That is like asking "can we just get all the loot without the fight?"

How is it good for a level 14 Fighter who wants a SOS or Kundarak Delving Boots to repeat VON1 20 or 40 or 60 times? That's a level 8 quest... it's not a "fight" from his perspective-just a waste of running. This will get even worse when players are level 16 (soon!).

You can make an argument that level 10 players should need to repeat VON1-6, or even level 12 players. But when players EIGHT levels above the quest need to repeat it every 3 days to try for the loot they want, something is very wrong. Not only does the character who wants the item need to repeat that lowbie stuff again and again, but he's also got to drag his other level 16 friends in too, so they can come to VON6 with him and increase the number of raid items dropped.

[MysticTheurge]

But when players EIGHT levels above the quest need to repeat it every 3 days to try for the loot they want, something is very wrong.

Yeah the loot is overpowered.

You shouldn't even want something out of a level 10 quest at 16th. Even raid loot.

But that's, as they say, a whole different can of worms.

[bobbryan2]

Yeah the loot is overpowered.

You shouldn't even want something out of a level 10 quest at 16th. Even raid loot.

But that's, as they say, a whole different can of worms.

Not only that, but they never released anything that got close to it. The SoS, while probably overpowered, wouldn't be as highly wanted if the Bereavement or Cloudburst were anything close in comparison.

[Angelus_dead]

But that's, as they say, a whole different can of worms.

A separate topic somewhat... but also more important. If that were fixed, then all the concerns of this thread would become obselete. Nobody would complain they need to reflag VON if they don't need any VON loot.

[MysticTheurge]

Nobody would complain they need to reflag VON if they don't need any VON loot.

I disagree.

Fewer people, perhaps, but not "nobody."

[tekn0mage]

Ok for the last time I'm gonna say it - The point of this thread has nothing to do with loot. I created the thread, I know why I did, and I know what I meant.

My guild has problems with the prerequisites. It's a logistical nightmare getting 20+ people flagged for a raid on raid night. Being one of the officers, my job is to MAKE SURE everyone is flagged. That means I end up having to run VON1-4 at least 3 times on Raid Night because people need prep.

I'm sick of running the prep. I could give a rip less what loot *I* get. It's about them.. they are new players and they deserve a crack at the loot but have trouble getting into a group (whether guild group or pug group) and getting flagged.

Secondly, the 12-player missions are great team-builders that we don't get enough time running. Aside from that, guilds are limited to 6 player groups and that can lead to small pockets or "cliques" in the guild. That is why the focus of a big guild needs to be raiding. That way , everyone will become accustomed to grouping with one another and winning.

So is everyone clear about why this thread was created now? If you still insist on clinging to "you just want more loot" then its your own projection ... not mine.

[tekn0mage]

A separate topic somewhat... but also more important. If that were fixed, then all the concerns of this thread would become obselete. Nobody would complain they need to reflag VON if they don't need any VON loot.

This is a good point because when the raid timer and the raid random drops first came about, I predicted (quite accurately) that even with steady raiding, 6 months of raiding would STILL not guarantee you loot in any way.

DDO has taken a random concept to a whole new level with randomizing the drops, and then randomizing the players that those drops go to and then randomizing the rewards you get at 20 with no guarantee at any point, ever.

I've been raiding the Titan for over a year, and STILL have no gloves that I've been looking for. Haven't ever SEEN then even drop. Not even once. This is a horribly unbalanced system to run something consistently for over a year and not get an item.

[bobbryan2]

A separate topic somewhat... but also more important. If that were fixed, then all the concerns of this thread would become obselete. Nobody would complain they need to reflag VON if they don't need any VON loot.

I'd still complain.