Losing Rage causes Concentration checks on casting.

[MrCow]

An odd bug, and one that most people are not likely to encounter. When a rage (as in the spell version: Rage) fades off during the casting of a spell it will cause a concentration check to occur. I have been able to reproduce this by doing the following steps:

• Take damage somehow. If you are at full health then the bug will not show itself. Temporary HP does not affect this bug.
• Have the rage spell cast on you.
• Wait until the rage spell is ready to expire.
• Cast a spell (any spell, from what I have seen) so that midway through the casting the rage effect wears off.
• Notice that you make a concentration check.

If I were to wager a guess the recalculation of HP when one is not at full health is causing something to think that you have taken damage, the damage being your new current HP vs your old raged current HP. To accompany, I have a couple screenshots:





By the way, in these pictures I was level 9. The first picture I was casting Cure Serious Wounds (DC 22 concentration check, and failed on a total roll of 20) and in the second picture I was casting Summon Monster I (DC 20 concentration check, passed that one without issues). The picture below is a Bear's Endurance falling off (level 13, casting jump, DC 37 concentration check).

[MysticTheurge]

I'm going to rename you MrBug, if you keep this up.

[MrCow]

Fine by me, I go by many many nicknames in real life. One more won't hurt.

[Strakeln]

Too many shortcuts in the Turbine development department.

Start using well-defined processes and stick with them, Turbine. There's a reason for it.

I'm looking at you, Mr. I'm-so-clever-I-made-lesser-restores-into-clickies.

[DeadlyGazebo]

When the rage spell ends (or any other temporary-con-boosting-thing ends), your con bonus drops. As per the SRD, "If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease accordingly.", so your current HP drops a bit.

Loss of HP is considered "damage", so it causes a concentration check (and may trigger other things that care about "damage", like breaking some effects).

We do special case the situation where you were at 100% hp; in that case, you're still at 100%, so we don't consider you to have been damaged.

So I think I'm going to consider this "by design"; you could argue that decreasing current hit points by con modifier changes isn't quite the same as damage, but I don't think I'll buy that argument...

[MysticTheurge]

When the rage spell ends (or any other temporary-con-boosting-thing ends), your con bonus drops. As per the SRD, "If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease accordingly.", so your current HP drops a bit.

I'd agree with you on the Concentration Check on Constitution loss in general, but I think in the case of Rage (and other "buff" spells) it should be ignored.

In D&D, you'd never have a buff wear off while you're casting a spell. It just can't happen (except, I guess, in one or two very rare circumstances). So I'd say, if possible, losing buffs like Rage or Bull's Strength, shouldn't force a concentration check.

Other constitution loss, like getting hit with the Poison spell or a Wraith's Con damage, probably ought to do it whether or not you're at full health to start with.

[MrCow]

Yeah, I realized this was a fuzzy case as CON loss and concentration checks lack a lot of detail in how they should be carried out and thus are open to interpretation. You stated your interpretation and I can't find anything good enough to refute it. Also, this is why I brought this to the forums before submitting an actual bug report as I wasn't completely sure if this had a clear yes or no answer.

Regardless, thank you for taking the time to explain how you deal with this issue.

[ccheath776]

When the rage spell ends (or any other temporary-con-boosting-thing ends), your con bonus drops. As per the SRD, "If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease accordingly.", so your current HP drops a bit.

Loss of HP is considered "damage", so it causes a concentration check (and may trigger other things that care about "damage", like breaking some effects).

We do special case the situation where you were at 100% hp; in that case, you're still at 100%, so we don't consider you to have been damaged.

So I think I'm going to consider this "by design"; you could argue that decreasing current hit points by con modifier changes isn't quite the same as damage, but I don't think I'll buy that argument...

Why not an exception script to consider this damage not as part of that category? Unless your saying that this is the way you want it to be. Where loss of rage causes a concentration check.

If just losing the con makes you lose hp, then that means other spells are doing the same. Including bears endurance, or enhancement items, or false life items.

By this thinking anything that causes a loss of hp is considered "damage" and causes a concentration check and that should not be necessarily, or at least IMO.

[Missing_Minds]

So I think I'm going to consider this "by design"; you could argue that decreasing current hit points by con modifier changes isn't quite the same as damage, but I don't think I'll buy that argument...

So if I took off a con item, I just took damage? That is what the argument is stating. I look at it like this.

no con mods = healthy
con + mods = extra healthy
con - mods = sick
removal of + con mods doesn't make me any less healthy than what I started out as.

So what would happen if I were a rage mage? I rage, cast spells, my rage wears off (per barbarian rage not the spell) the entire minute I'm exhausted therefore I'm taking damage hence concentration checks? (mind you I have no idea at all how it is working and if this would happen, just pointing out other opinions on it.)

Personally, I'd just mark it as a known bug that probably won't get fixed. You've much greater issues at hand to worry about. Thanks for commenting, Gazebo.

But seriously, Lesser restoration really needs to be fixed. 1 entire class is messed up because of it.

[TiberiusofTyr]

So if I took off a con item, I just took damage? That is what the argument is stating. I look at it like this.

no con mods = healthy
con + mods = extra healthy
con - mods = sick
removal of + con mods doesn't make me any less healthy than what I started out as.

Unless it kills you. Loss of extra hit points whether through Barbarian rage or con boosts can incapacitate or kill an already damaged character.

[MysticTheurge]

Unless it kills you. Loss of extra hit points whether through Barbarian rage or con boosts can incapacitate or kill an already damaged character.

In theory, that didn't really kill you. All the other damage you took while you were buffed killed you, and the buff just convinced your body that it hadn't quite happened yet.

[Missing_Minds]

In theory, that didn't really kill you. All the other damage you took while you were buffed killed you, and the buff just convinced your body that it hadn't quite happened yet.

Yeap. Pretty much like falling over after the adrenaline rush is over.

[TiberiusofTyr]

In theory, that didn't really kill you. All the other damage you took while you were buffed killed you, and the buff just convinced your body that it hadn't quite happened yet.

toMAYto/toMAHto

Reminds me of laying incapped in the harbor and my buffs running out before I stabilized. Good times.

[Strakeln]

When the rage spell ends (or any other temporary-con-boosting-thing ends), your con bonus drops. As per the SRD, "If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease accordingly.", so your current HP drops a bit.

Loss of HP is considered "damage", so it causes a concentration check (and may trigger other things that care about "damage", like breaking some effects).

We do special case the situation where you were at 100% hp; in that case, you're still at 100%, so we don't consider you to have been damaged.

So I think I'm going to consider this "by design"; you could argue that decreasing current hit points by con modifier changes isn't quite the same as damage, but I don't think I'll buy that argument...

I think I just heard a large explosion in another thread down the list... what uncanny timing you have for making such a post, DG.

[Dark_Helmet]

When the rage spell ends (or any other temporary-con-boosting-thing ends), your con bonus drops. As per the SRD, "If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease accordingly.", so your current HP drops a bit.

Loss of HP is considered "damage", so it causes a concentration check (and may trigger other things that care about "damage", like breaking some effects).

We do special case the situation where you were at 100% hp; in that case, you're still at 100%, so we don't consider you to have been damaged.

So I think I'm going to consider this "by design"; you could argue that decreasing current hit points by con modifier changes isn't quite the same as damage, but I don't think I'll buy that argument...

I can easily argue this
When buffs run out, they are not subject to a concentration check as it is not against the original stat but a removal of a "buff".

[EspyLacopa]

I'd worry about this if it weren't for this important tidbit from Rage (spell and otherwise) in D&D:

While raging, a character cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function.

[MysticTheurge]

I'd worry about this if it weren't for this important tidbit from Rage (spell and otherwise) in D&D:

He's got a point. This should even be true for the spell:

Each affected creature gains a +2 morale bonus to Strength and Constitution, a +1 morale bonus on Will saves, and a -2 penalty to AC. The effect is otherwise identical with a barbarian’s rage except that the subjects aren’t fatigued at the end of the rage.

Though it could theoretically still be a problem for spells like Bear's Endurance.

[BlueLightBandit]

I was gonna say the same thing... you shouldn't be able to cast at all while raging.

Seems as though Mr.Cow found and reported a bug... but the "real" bug was something different.