Official Raid Loot Feedback Thread - USE THIS THREAD for feedback.

[Dark_Helmet]

[COLOR=ORANGE]I fear we've found a flaw in the new raid loot system.

While YMMV and I have seen 0 drops and 4 drops (out of 8 characters), the problem I have is the Black Abbot with ONE chest at the end and we have to wait 3 days for it?

Typically I get a single item - even on hard - and it was splintmail or something just as useless. I get better from PoP for about the same amount of time spent.

OT: One of my end rewards for my level 15 efforts was 10 Kargon Tasty Hams. That is worth 550 GP...hardly the correct level (No Offense Kargon!)

[llevenbaxx]

This only takes into consideration the scenario of a heavy raiding guild bringing along a casual pugger, and then denying the pugger any chance at the loot upon completion.

I would submit that is/was a low volume of cases out of the full sample.

It's still a bad system for the casual gamer.

Not in my experience. Have had my str based rogue denied to roll on +6str/mod fort 3 times. The last time, I asked prior to joining and was shafted after one of the leaders guildie tanks said thats "bs" you dont see me rolling on blah blah...

Didnt even bother raiding with my WF ftr8/wiz6 back then. What the hell would he have a shot at? Have since started raiding with him.

Its a much better system than it was for this casual gamer.

[Dane_McArdy]

Aside from CODOG no dev has posted about what they really "feel" about content. There are alot of changes made with no explaination. I don't recall a dev sating the raid loot was changed because of X or Y

The Rocking Dead, Graal, and many others have posted about content and the choices that go into it and why.

For example. They won't make quests based on class or alignment, because that limits who can do those quests, and it would take the same time to create a quest like that, as it would to create a quest that EVERYONE can do. So they are going to stick to developing content meant for everyone to enjoy.

Just because you don't know something doesn't make it invalid.

There used to be a Turbine person, name started with a K I think, who did landscapes and did some of the first explorer zones, who ALWAYS posted about the work she did, and wanted feedback and often expressed what she felt about the content.

Hsinclair certainly had lots of times of being vocal.

I guess if you want to believe that raids are only meant for players like you, so you can get them to change the raid loot so you get more, I will no longer try and discuss differently with you.

Thanks and have a good day.

[Donnie]

Considering the drop rate is 1 in 6, I fail to see how 0 in 3 is a problem.

If that same person runs 60 raids and gets <5 drops (allowing for deviation from averages), then we have a problem.

When it comes to raid items, at this point the only odds that matter to a lot of people are the odds of getting nothing.

Honestly, the posts about doing 20 or 60 raids have zero validity with me. Why? Im a casual player, ill never do 20 or 60 of the same raid period. Yet, I could still run 5 of the same raid and never get a drop myself, yet at the same time see somebody else get at least one, and still have the reassurance that drops are actual within the realm of possibility.

Character advancement is key, and in this game items are the highest level of character advancement. Getting no drops from a raid is psychologicaly negative when you have this type of system in place. People can argue the odds all they want, but thats a cold method in the face of human emotion and reaction when existing in a fantasy world. Regardless of the chances it is not in the best interest of the game, and actual reactions from people in game when they get zero drops from a raid reinforce this.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Character advancement is key, and in this game items are the highest level of character advancement. Getting no drops from a raid is psychologicaly negative when you have this type of system in place. People can argue the odds all they want, but thats a cold method in the face of human emotion and reaction when existing in a fantasy world. Regardless of the chances it is not in the best interest of the game, and actual reactions from people in game when they get zero drops from a raid reinforce this.

That's why I think you should get a guaranteed drop from end reward the very first time you raid (same half rewards list as 20/40/60/etc.). Get even the casual players hooked on raiding/raid loot right from the start. Any good "tambourine man" (or marketing guru) knows the first one is always on the house. And more desire to raid means more questing/grinding/flagging, means more players playing the game.

[Vinos]

The Rocking Dead, Graal, and many others have posted about content and the choices that go into it and why.

For example. They won't make quests based on class or alignment, because that limits who can do those quests, and it would take the same time to create a quest like that, as it would to create a quest that EVERYONE can do. So they are going to stick to developing content meant for everyone to enjoy.

Just because you don't know something doesn't make it invalid.

There used to be a Turbine person, name started with a K I think, who did landscapes and did some of the first explorer zones, who ALWAYS posted about the work she did, and wanted feedback and often expressed what she felt about the content.

Hsinclair certainly had lots of times of being vocal.

I guess if you want to believe that raids are only meant for players like you, so you can get them to change the raid loot so you get more, I will no longer try and discuss differently with you.

Thanks and have a good day.

I don't think anyone has ever changed anyone's mind on the forums anyway. And no dane I am not selfish when it comes to raid loot or raid loot systems. I just want a fair and balanced system. It's not fair when no raid loot drops in a 12 man raid. That doesn't mean that I want 10 pieces to drop. Maybe a balanced system doesn't exist or maybe it's just no one has thought of it yet. When you are ready to face reality we'll talk again(until OCT 23rd anyway)

[Dane_McArdy]

When it comes to raid items, at this point the only odds that matter to a lot of people are the odds of getting nothing.

Honestly, the posts about doing 20 or 60 raids have zero validity with me. Why? Im a casual player, ill never do 20 or 60 of the same raid period. Yet, I could still run 5 of the same raid and never get a drop myself, yet at the same time see somebody else get at least one, and still have the reassurance that drops are actual within the realm of possibility.

Character advancement is key, and in this game items are the highest level of character advancement. Getting no drops from a raid is psychologicaly negative when you have this type of system in place. People can argue the odds all they want, but thats a cold method in the face of human emotion and reaction when existing in a fantasy world. Regardless of the chances it is not in the best interest of the game, and actual reactions from people in game when they get zero drops from a raid reinforce this.

I don't see it as a cold method. To me a cold method is where one person decides who gets raid loot. And the only time a person like you would be considered is when nobody wants what drops.

I will say first impressions are hard to over come. Had the people who got nothing the first time, were on the other end, and multiple pieces dropped, they would be viewing it differently.

The fact that a persons first experience will swing what they may think about the loot system either way (Yay, lots dropped, it's good! Boo nothing dropped it's bad) makes it hard to decide if a change is needed.

Because it's all coming down to sounding like sour grapes, for those that who's raid dropped nothing.

[Dane_McArdy]

I don't think anyone has ever changed anyone's mind on the forums anyway. And no dane I am not selfish when it comes to raid loot or raid loot systems. I just want a fair and balanced system. It's not fair when no raid loot drops in a 12 man raid. That doesn't mean that I want 10 pieces to drop. Maybe a balanced system doesn't exist or maybe it's just no one has thought of it yet. When you are ready to face reality we'll talk again(until OCT 23rd anyway)

There is no fair and balanced system when elements are left to random chance. it's not fair when no raid loot drops? Then it's just as unfair when 8 pieces drop, as we have seen it does in screen shots.

A balanced system is simply a step progress with marked rewards at predetermined times and levels. IE, do this X times, get this, Do this XX times, get that. If the measure of someone's work in the game is based on what they have, then that goes out the window with a balanced system, because everyone will be the same.

That is reality.

[Donnie]

That's why I think you should get a guaranteed drop from end reward the very first time you raid (same half rewards list as 20/40/60/etc.). Get even the casual players hooked on raiding/raid loot right from the start. Any good "tambourine man" (or marketing guru) knows the first one is always on the house. And more desire to raid means more questing/grinding/flagging, means more players playing the game.

Well if that was the case it would be a completely different ballgame for the casual gamer.

Unfortunately, it still dosent solve the problem with the rest of the playerbase though. Which does inevitably effect the casual gamer too, since their peers or guildies may be more hardcore players and may become less likely to want to do the raids as well. I know that I, for instance, never like to run a raid quest for my first time without a dependable guide of some sort. So I look to my guildies and friends, whom often play much more than I, to help me out. Just examples of how these things effect everyone.

[Donnie]

I don't see it as a cold method.

It is when inevitability of odds are the only defense.

There is no fair and balanced system when elements are left to random chance.

Maybe some things just shouldnt be completely left up to random chance.

[Luthen]

Two things seem possible to me here. There is something wrong with the new loot mechanics, causing more, no loot drops then should be.

Or people are jumping on the, I-killed-the-raid-mob-and-all-I-got-was-10-pinches-of-sand bandwagon.

To me, it sounds like he is saying in one day, he did 3 raids, two on elite, 12 full people all on the same day.

While I don't rule out the idea of something being wrong with the loot mechanics causing more no loot then there should be, this particular story raised red flags with me on it's truthiness.

OK Dane. I hope I might hold more credibility then. Since the change I have seen variations on drops... but the one consistancy is that ZERO loot drops happens far more often then it should. IMHO it should never be zero. Here's a recent example (note: I have 6 capped toons 5 are active):

Over a 2 day period the following happened:
12 man Reaver Elite - no drops
12 man Reaver Normal - no drops
9 man Reaver Normal - no drops
7 man Reaver Normal - no drops
4 man Reaver Normal - 1 drop
10 man Titan Normal - no drops
10 man DQ Normal - no drops

Now I agree that, in part, luck has something to do with that streak. Perhaps, though, luck shouldn't play such a high factor because that is what I call a nightmare scenario and should nnever be allowed to happen.

[Craigthegreat]

I think a lot this comes down to word of mouth.
If you have a chorus of people within guild chat, general chat, on the forums etc. all indicating their raids produced no raid loot; it’s pretty easy to foresee the result.

I would hope that the devs are aware of the time that is invested from the moment a person decides to run a raid until the final chest is popped. Given this appropriate hope / expectation, I find that I agree with Wulf Ratbane’s comment, “Any system that has even the remotest possibility of generating ZERO loot won't work.”

In almost every conceivable way he is correct. It won’t work.

I see some folks have entered the fray on this one, and thank the good lord, because now we can see how and why the current system is perfectly fine.

Except…that is, for the fact that as more and more people get no raid loot from these chests the more and more word is going to spread. I ask you this, why would I bother investing the time to run some long, tired raid, expend all the resources required, and furthermore expect everyone on the raid to do the same, if there is a chance that no one will get anything (of real value) for it? Then I am timed out, so I cannot try again for however many days, to run it again, and get nothing of value?
I thought it was risk vs. reward? This system seems to believe instead, risk vs. possible reward.

I don’t think everyone should be running around in all of the uberest gear, but those who choose to take on a real challenge like say a raid on elite, should be guaranteed at least one piece of raid loot is going to drop for at least one person. Math be damned, that’s “fair”.

[Dane_McArdy]

It is when inevitability of odds are the only defense.



Maybe some things just shouldnt be completely left up to random chance.

And again, I would say people would find that boring quickly.

Didn't anyone listen to Kirks monolouges on Star Trek about the human condition? Come one people! Work with me!

[Luthen]

In the line of work I am in we use "positive reinforcers" to help people feel like they're achieving goals in the here and now while they work towards bigger more meaningful goals. Human beings in general all want "instant gratification". It's why we have fast food and the internet and everything else we've invented. Some people have said that the lower loot drop rate makes the items worth more and can be appreciated more. That may have been true if they started it out that way. However they didn't start it that way. So now they've created this loot beast that wants instant gratification or something close to it.

They cannot expect to change to this new system and take away what they themselves had created and we came to expect. Right or wrong. This is like trying to go cold turkey off a hardcore narcotic. Not really the best method for the majority. They need to have a slower weening process if they want to, eventually, drastically reduce the raid loot system and how often items drop.

There are allot of alternatives that they have at their disposal with the suggestions and knowlege of this entire player base. I just hope they start using it a little more wisely.

[Dirac]

Summary of some points.

1. Is it hopeless to point out that there is no casual v power gamer dichotomy? There is an enormous range of people playing an enormously different amount of time and levels of seriousness.

2. I haven't checked lately, but every time I have, there is no data that shows the raid loot is not dropping exactly as often as they said it would.

3. A valid point of contention is the debate over what (if any) conditions should warrant any guaranteed loot. I feel you should get it the first time; the 1/21/41/61 plan. I'm agnostic at the moment concerning if at least one drop should occur in every raid; maybe every raid with over 9 people?

4. We should work toward a raid loot system better (and more appropriate) for everyone that will improve the game and not argue over benefiting casual versus power gamers.

I don't think anyone has ever changed anyone's mind on the forums anyway.

For the record, I change my mind (or develop a more nuanced understanding, or gain a different perspective) from reading the forums all the time.

[Dane_McArdy]

OK Dane. I hope I might hold more credibility then. Since the change I have seen variations on drops... but the one consistancy is that ZERO loot drops happens far more often then it should. IMHO it should never be zero. Here's a recent example (note: I have 6 capped toons 5 are active):

Over a 2 day period the following happened:
12 man Reaver Elite - no drops
12 man Reaver Normal - no drops
9 man Reaver Normal - no drops
7 man Reaver Normal - no drops
4 man Reaver Normal - 1 drop
10 man Titan Normal - no drops
10 man DQ Normal - no drops

Now I agree that, in part, luck has something to do with that streak. Perhaps, though, luck shouldn't play such a high factor because that is what I call a nightmare scenario and should nnever be allowed to happen.

Like I said, I haven't ruled out the idea there might be something wrong with the loot mechanic for raids.

[Dane_McArdy]

In the line of work I am in we use "positive reinforcers" to help people feel like they're achieving goals in the here and now while they work towards bigger more meaningful goals. Human beings in general all want "instant gratification". It's why we have fast food and the internet and everything else we've invented. Some people have said that the lower loot drop rate makes the items worth more and can be appreciated more. That may have been true if they started it out that way. However they didn't start it that way. So now they've created this loot beast that wants instant gratification or something close to it.

They cannot expect to change to this new system and take away what they themselves had created and we came to expect. Right or wrong. This is like trying to go cold turkey off a hardcore narcotic. Not really the best method for the majority. They need to have a slower weening process if they want to, eventually, drastically reduce the raid loot system and how often items drop.

There are allot of alternatives that they have at their disposal with the suggestions and knowlege of this entire player base. I just hope they start using it a little more wisely.

I agree about the positive reinforcement. To such, I would make all loot that comes out of the chest that isn't a raid item, MUCH better. One mnenomic pot? How about a stack of 5? Level 14 raid, no item should be below level 12 in quality.

So while you might not get raid loot, you could at least get something that is of value.

[MysticTheurge]

For the record, I change my mind (or develop a more nuanced understanding, or gain a different perspective) from reading the forums all the time.

I don't know about "all the time" but it has certainly happened to me before.

[Dane_McArdy]

I don't know about "all the time" but it has certainly happened to me before.

I'll take credit for that!

Even if it wasn't me!

[Dirac]

I agree about the positive reinforcement. To such, I would make all loot that comes out of the chest that isn't a raid item, MUCH better. One mnenomic pot? How about a stack of 5? Level 14 raid, no item should be below level 12 in quality.

So while you might not get raid loot, you could at least get something that is of value.

I would like to claim being prophetic on this one. My comment from August 3 follows below:

Yes, I think this is important and often lost in the plethora of threads on the subject. The change will mean less raid loot for us. That is a bummer, but I can at least appreciate maintaining the principle of never making it advantageous to bring fewer people that is consistent everywhere else in DDO but raid loot.

I have thought that the success of the implementation of this idea will highly depend on what else drops in the chest. If high quality random loot also comes out regularly, complaints are going to plummet. The last time I was in a raid that defeated the Reaver on elite I received a +1 con belt of balance (+3 or +5) that was min level 6 from the non-warded chest at the end.

If this is the sort of insult players are going to receive from the warded chest, and no raid loot, I think we are seeing just the beginning of the firestorm on this issue.