U45 Preview 1: Balance: Ranged Combat Changes

Disclaimer

Everything seen on the preview server, Lamannia, is not final and is subject to change or removal before live release.

For some context about these changes:

As we approach each Hardcore season, one of our goals is to make changes that change how you build and play characters - We want to shake up builds and strategies, and it makes sense to align these game-wide changes with the release of new seasons of the Hardcore League. Season 2 is coming very soon, so U45 contains a lot of the balance changes for the season. Some of this process involves identifying underperforming builds and making changes to boost them - KOTC and Two Handed Fighting changes are a big part of this in this Season. However, this process also involves identifying overperforming builds and archetypes and making adjustments as well.

In approaching these Ranged changes, especially with regards to Inquisitive, we looked at it from a number of progressively larger questions:

• Is Inquisitive balanced where it needs to be overall?
  
  • No, in evaluating play data it's become clear that it's too strong. We iterated on a number of different potential changes over the last few months, and ended up making changes that reduce its power from a number of angles; some of those changes address some of the below questions as well. Inquisitive will still be very viable, but it very likely won't be the top weapon DPS in the game anymore.
  
  
• Are the Crossbow styles (Great, Repeater, Dual) balanced where they need to be relative to other Crossbow styles?
  
  • No. Inquisitive is much stronger than the others (especially when you factor in cross-class builds) and Great Crossbow is a little higher than it needs to be (especially when given access to Fusilade/NHB).
  
  
• Are Crossbows (as a combat style) balanced where they need to be relative to other Ranged combat styles?
  
  • Looking in the context of Crossbows vs. Bows*, it became clear that Repeaters are close to where they need to be (though slightly high when cheesing to skip the Fusilade animation), but Great and Dual are significantly too high. (And bows are too low. See below.)
  
  
• Is Ranged Weapon Combat (as an archetype) balanced where it needs to be relative to other combat styles?
  
  • ?Looking in the context of ranged combat vs. melee combat, there are significant issues with Ranged's easy access to AOE on hit (something we believe should be more highly incentivized in the THF Melee style) and current lack of incentive to focus on single targets. This last one led to the changes to Archer's Focus (boosting single-target damage) and Improved Precise Shot (allowing you to continue to AOE as you did before, but at a cost), as well as the presence of a few Melee-centric changes (such as KOTC's new Lead the Charge enhancement and the updated Spring Attack) that let Melees get into attacking range faster.

We're going to evaluate these changes on Lamannia and make tweaks if needed. We'll keep an eye on things once U45 goes live as well, and keep making tweaks if needed. Our goal isn't to invalidate builds, it's to make an ecosystem where melee and ranged are more balanced. Our initial approach with Inquisitive was to pair it to Great Crossbow in terms of DPS; our mistakes were not realizing sooner that Great Crossbows were stronger (on a broad level) than they should be, and underestimating certain multiclass options that really minmax Inquisitive.

• *What about bows???
  
  
  • We recognize that some of the overall-ranged changes in this update reduce the amount of AOE damage that Bows can produce. However, between Archer's Focus (being a boon to Bow builds' single-target damage) and updated Deepwood Stalker, there are some boosts in this update as well. We recognize this is not an overall solution to Bows, as a combat style, having few options to help them become competitive DPS builds. We've got plans coming soon for that.

-SteelStar


Individual Changes

• General
  
  • Improved Precise Shot now reduces Ranged Damage by 20% while active.
  • Archer's Focus has been redesigned: Offensive Ranged Stance: This stance grants power to those who focus their attacks on a single target. Once per second, attacking a foe with a Ranged weapon will grant you a stack of Archer's Focus: +3 Competence Bonus to Ranged Power that lasts for 6 seconds. This effect can stack up to 15 times by attacking the same target. Attacking a different target with a Ranged Weapon will reset your stacks of this effect.
  • Rapid Reload now increases the reload speed of Great Crossbows, Dual Light Crossbows, and Dual Light Crossbows by less than before.
  • Endless Fusillade and No Holds Barred now require a Crossbow to be equipped in order to activate.
  • Endless Fusillade and No Holds Barred now play a Reload animation on activation before the effect starts. (This is shorter than the previous activation animation this skill had, though it now plays consistently).
• New Feats
  
  • Simple Thrown Weapon Expertise: Requires 13 Dexterity: You are skilled with the use of Simple Thrown Weapons (Throwing Daggers and Darts) and while using one, you gain Doubleshot equal to your Dexterity.
  • Multitude of Missiles: Requires Point Blank Shot and +6 Base Attack Bonus: For the next 20 seconds, while wielding a Simple Thrown Weapon add 120 to your Doubleshot and 4x your Base Attack Bonus to Ranged Power. Shares a cooldown with Manyshot.
• Ranger
  
  • Ranger: Deepwood Stalker's Heavy Draw no longer reduces Attack by 5 when toggled on, and now also grants a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Multiplier to Longbows and Shortbows while toggled on.
  • Ranger: Deepwood Stalker's Strikes Like Lightning now also adds 10% Ranged Alacrity with Longbows and Shortbows when you do not have Improved Precise Shot enabled.
• Inquisitive
  
  • Dual Crossbow combat style now only uses 66% of your Doubleshot.
  • Inquisitive Law Dice now scale with 150% Ranged Power (was 200%)
  • "Improved Law" and "Greater Law" in Inquisitive now grant +1 Law Die (previously +2).

Known Issues

• N/A

One question before I comment further. Is the proposed Archer’s Focus still limited to standing still and not using Manyshot?

Also, does the alacrity bonus from Strikes like Lightning stack with other bonuses or is it the bs non stacking garbage version?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by barecm

One question before I comment further. Is the proposed Archer’s Focus still limited to standing still and not using Manyshot?

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No.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by barecm

One question before I comment further. Is the proposed Archer’s Focus still limited to standing still and not using Manyshot?

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No! We intentionally took out the standing still restriction in this redesign. We've taken out the Manyshot restriction for this preview as well, and will be keeping an eye on whether or not that needs to be put back before Live.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steelstar

No! We intentionally took out the standing still restriction in this redesign. We've taken out the Manyshot restriction for this preview as well, and will be keeping an eye on whether or not that needs to be put back before Live.

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You guys are quick. How about the alacrity from Strikes like Lightning?

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Originally Posted by barecm

You guys are quick. How about the alacrity from Strikes like Lightning?

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If I recall correctly, that does not have any Manyshot restrictions either.

"We've got plans coming soon for that."

Soon as in this update (just not ready yet) or soon as in Soon(TM)?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cocomajobo

[B]Once per second, attacking a foe with a Ranged weapon will grant you a stack of Archer's Focus: +3 Competence Bonus to Ranged Power that lasts for 6 seconds. This effect can stack up to 15 times by attacking the same target. Attacking a different target with a Ranged Weapon will reset your stacks of this effect.

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To make this useful in practice I think you'd need to make the re-targeting just peel off like 1, 2, 3 stacks instead of resetting all the way to zero. In a group you're going to get what, on average 2 or 3 hits on a mob before you and/or someone else kills the mob anyway. Or even solo... I can't see this generating more than a few stacks at any given time unless your lone target is a single boss with no adds.

If it's a reset to zero the net effect of this doesn't look like a compelling boost for encouraging single target damage. Your stick is -20% dps on IPS; your carrot is pretty weak by contrast.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Garix

"We've got plans coming soon for that."

Soon as in this update (just not ready yet) or soon as in Soon(TM)?

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Not for U45, but likely later this year.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steelstar

If I recall correctly, that does not have any Manyshot restrictions either.

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Will it stack? Like if I am using the Chaosbow and Sapphire Sting? If not, I am not sure it is really viable or useful as you get a higher bonus from items.

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Originally Posted by Garix

"We've got plans coming soon for that."

Soon as in this update (just not ready yet) or soon as in Soon(TM)?

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Soon^TM

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hit_fido

To make this useful in practice I think you'd need to make the re-targeting just peel off like 3 stacks instead of resetting all the way to zero. In a group you're going to get what, at best 2 or 3 hits on a mob before you and/or someone else kills the mob anyway. Or even solo... I can't see this generating more than a few stacks at any given time unless your lone target is a single boss with no adds.

If it's a reset to zero the net effect of this doesn't look like a compelling boost for encouraging single target damage. Your stick is -20% dps on IPS; your carrot is pretty weak by contrast.

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That's accurate, but part of the rebalancing we're doing here, especially in regards to the question of:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cocomajobo

• Is Ranged Weapon Combat (as an archetype) balanced where it needs to be relative to other combat styles?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by barecm

Will it stack? Like if I am using the Chaosbow and Sapphire Sting? If not, I am not sure it is really viable or useful as you get a higher bonus from items.

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Yes, it should stack.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steelstar

Not for U45, but likely later this year.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lynnabel

Soon^TM

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Expected as much.

Thank you for the confirmation

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cocomajobo

Attacking a different target with a Ranged Weapon will reset your stacks of this effect.

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Okay, this here is not an improvement to Archer's Focus, this is a HUGE, HUGE nerf and means that Archer's Focus is basically ONLY useful for killing boss mobs that you fight EXCLUSIVELY by themselves. Currently, MOVING is what resets your stacks, so as long as you hold still you can DPS an entire room of mobs at full stacks to really get the damage in. When dealing with trash you should be switching targets frequently, which means you'll never get more than a stack or two before it goes away. And what if you have to switch targets to heal someone or cast a spell or something?!

This is dumb and I can TELL it's dumb without even TESTING it. If you want to improve Archer's Focus just REMOVE the "goes away when you move" limitation. Remove ALL "goes away" except from stacks EXPIRING. That would make it actually competitive with IPS, particularly in situations where it's quite hard to line mobs up.

So.... why would anyone take IPS now? 20% of my damage is gone all because of some AoE damage? Not my damage, I'm not playing an inquis on my main (but on my alt), but that hurts Bow rangers too, moreso than inquisitives or repeaters.

I dunno, as for the other debuffs specifically to inquisitives I understand the changing of law on my side and greater law. But not the doubleshot only uses 66% and the ranged power decrease in addition to it. I wonder how much internal tests happened to cause those numbers to be so low in comparison.

Not that I agree with nerfs ever, but if it had to happen, it feels like you guys wanted the tree to be dead because it's not going to be good anymore I think, maybe I'm wrong though.

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Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde

And what if you have to switch targets to heal someone or cast a spell or something?!

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Casting a spell doesn't interrupt the stacks, don't worry.

Testing stuff out on Lamannia is very important to us, we appreciate firsthand feedback quite a bit :)

Seems reasonable overall. Making doubleshot for dual crossbows have the same relative penalty as a repeater seems sensible. If the endless fusillade "charge up" time is shorter, that's a good change. -20% on IPS seems like a lot, but as long as you maneuver for at least two mobs it's still a win versus single target. Guess will have to see how it feels in practice.

I was promised the lamentations of the ranged, but this doesn't feel bad, man.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde

Okay, this here is not an improvement to Archer's Focus, this is a HUGE, HUGE nerf and means that Archer's Focus is basically ONLY useful for killing boss mobs that you fight EXCLUSIVELY by themselves. Currently, MOVING is what resets your stacks, so as long as you hold still you can DPS an entire room of mobs at full stacks to really get the damage in. When dealing with trash you should be switching targets frequently, which means you'll never get more than a stack or two before it goes away. And what if you have to switch targets to heal someone or cast a spell or something?!

This is dumb and I can TELL it's dumb without even TESTING it. If you want to improve Archer's Focus just REMOVE the "goes away when you move" limitation. Remove ALL "goes away" except from stacks EXPIRING. That would make it actually competitive with IPS, particularly in situations where it's quite hard to line mobs up.

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On moving:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steelstar

No! We intentionally took out the standing still restriction in this redesign. We've taken out the Manyshot restriction for this preview as well, and will be keeping an eye on whether or not that needs to be put back before Live.

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On mob targeting swap:

I don't think you can use both archer's focus and IPS at the same time. If you want to kill a pack of mobs, IPS is still better as long as you make up the potential RP benefit of AF and the 20% damage loss nerf with hitting multiple mobs.

On spell casting:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lynnabel

Casting a spell doesn't interrupt the stacks, don't worry.

Testing stuff out on Lamannia is very important to us, we appreciate firsthand feedback quite a bit :)

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IPS is still OP and hasn't enough drawbacks.

Based on the 20% nerf to IPS I see nothing changing. It's still a hobson's choice.

100% damage to 1 mob or 80% damage to all mobs. No brainer there. Nothing will change and we'll be back here in 6 months with another IPS nerf.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hit_fido

Seems reasonable overall. Making doubleshot for dual crossbows have the same relative penalty as a repeater seems sensible. If the endless fusillade "charge up" time is shorter, that's a good change. -20% on IPS seems like a lot, but as long as you maneuver for at least two mobs it's still a win versus single target. Guess will have to see how it feels in practice.

I was promised the lamentations of the ranged, but this doesn't feel bad, man.

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More or less my opinion. I'd just rather remove the charge up time for Endless fusilade to match current NHB.

Don't have the download quota for Lam at the moment, but if it goes Live I can live with my current reading of the changes

Off the top of my head, the problem I am seeing is that for longbows, we have been pushed to a paralyze / fear build over the last couple of years. The center of that play style is IPS. Now, you are nerfing that to do less damage for a build that already has to sacrifice damage for high enough DCs to be viable. Until we see what else is happening for longbows, all I can comment on is what we have. And what we have are changes that are bad across the board and particularly bad for longbows who suffer yet again because something else is too powerful. It is beyond the pale now.

Why bother having long / short bows in the game if you continue to make them more and more useless? That is a serious question.

Ranger: Deepwood Stalker's Strikes Like Lightning now also adds 10% Ranged Alacrity with Longbows and Shortbows when you do not have Improved Precise Shot enabled.

This is meh, should remove the anti improved precise shot penalty. Bows are gimp, and you already have longbow/shortbow required for the alacrity part of the enhancment.


Change it later if/when you do a Long/Short bow pass, put it back if needed. But for now, I'd drop "when you do not have Improved Precise Shot enabled." change it rather to the whole enhancement to only work with Long/Short bows.

Edit - will this stack from 10% from bard primal song?

How about removing the IPS penalty for long/short bows since you have already stated they are underperforming. I am failing to see the logic behind penalizing long/short bows for the sins of crossbows. In fact it is just going to fire up an already upset base of players.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde

Okay, this here is not an improvement to Archer's Focus, this is a HUGE, HUGE nerf and means that Archer's Focus is basically ONLY useful for killing boss mobs that you fight EXCLUSIVELY by themselves. Currently, MOVING is what resets your stacks, so as long as you hold still you can DPS an entire room of mobs at full stacks to really get the damage in. When dealing with trash you should be switching targets frequently, which means you'll never get more than a stack or two before it goes away. And what if you have to switch targets to heal someone or cast a spell or something?!

This is dumb and I can TELL it's dumb without even TESTING it. If you want to improve Archer's Focus just REMOVE the "goes away when you move" limitation. Remove ALL "goes away" except from stacks EXPIRING. That would make it actually competitive with IPS, particularly in situations where it's quite hard to line mobs up.

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I agree. I saw this and said "why the nerf to archer's focus?" huge nerf that makes it only useful for bosses, while at the same time nerfing the alternative stance of IPS, please consider making a IPS a RP penalty instead of %.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by barecm

How about removing the IPS penalty for long/short bows since you have already stated they are underperforming. I am failing to see the logic behind penalizing long/short bows for the sins of crossbows. In fact it is just going to fire up an already upset base of players.

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Agreed. Just make IPS not work with Xbows. Problem solved.

Player base: "bows are underperforming and Inquisitives are overperforming"
SSG: "We hear you loud and clear. We're going to nerf IPS because we want to nerf Inquisitives and bows at the same time"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by barecm

How about removing the IPS penalty for long/short bows since you have already stated they are underperforming. I am failing to see the logic behind penalizing long/short bows for the sins of crossbows. In fact it is just going to fire up an already upset base of players.

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Yeah having bonus alacrity in mechanic and inquisitive that does not have this weird stipulation but having it in dws makes no sense. Please be consistent. If you want to be really mean add it to both inquisitive and mechanic to really get the forums riled up.

Throwers in ninja spy would also like bonus alacrity in their t5 please and thanks you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by barecm

How about removing the IPS penalty for long/short bows since you have already stated they are underperforming. I am failing to see the logic behind penalizing long/short bows for the sins of crossbows. In fact it is just going to fire up an already upset base of players.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by capsela

Agreed. Just make IPS not work with Xbows. Problem solved.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody

Player base: "bows are underperforming and Inquisitives are overperforming"
SSG: "We hear you loud and clear. We're going to nerf IPS because we want to nerf Inquisitives and bows at the same time"

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These three quotes pretty much sum it up.

From what I can see on the Character Sheet, Heavy Draw is not adding the +5 to damage.

The good news is it doesn't subtract 5 from your To-Hit, though.

20 Ranger tested on Lamannia. In Legendary Dreadnaught destiny.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody

Player base: "bows are underperforming and Inquisitives are overperforming"
SSG: "We hear you loud and clear. We're going to nerf IPS because we want to nerf Inquisitives and bows at the same time"

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The real question is whether or not the IPS -20% penalty applies to everything, or just the first digit damage.

Does Strikes Like Lightening 10% alacrity also include the 20 ranged power still?

Also, does Strikes Like Lightening stack with Primal Hymn from Fatesinger?

I love my Ranger but having done almost every ranged build under the sun, I can honestly say he is the worst of the ranged character I have played.

That's why when I woke up this morning being promised ranged changes I was expecting some juicy buffs to ranger to go in tandem with the inquisitive nerf but a significant ranger nerf? The buffs to compensate are insignificant and don't even stack with other goodies that rangers usually take (although im not sure if primal hymn will stack).

I would suggest:
- Heavy draw and the 18th lvl arcane archer core "If you have (Insert opposite enhancement here) grants +2 critical damage multiplier instead"
- Give doubleshot to the deepwood stalker tree capstone and make the arcane archer capstone boost imbue die (could even still give doubleshot) to give full 20 rangers a point
- If you are nerfing IPS so much, maybe make T5 or a core in deepwood focus on giving manyshot more uptime or go to the passive version that was suggested years ago

My point is, can't really just nerf the underperforming for the sake of the overpowered without ****ing off a bunch of people. At least give a +20 heart to rangers if you're gonna do this.

- "Repeaters are where they need to be"...yet they're getting co-nerfed all throughout this along with Inquisitive on IPS and RR. Why not boost their Doubleshot to 66% to match Inqui now? There's no way they're competitive with GXB/DXB if you're straight nerfing them. Plus they already have a disadvantage with AF since that stacks at 1/sec and they attack slower than 1/sec.

- Get ready for the Age of Stance Dance. I thought that was gameplay you didnt want to encourage...but the IPS/AF changes are going to accomplish just that, forcing players to constantly swap between ST and AOE modes

- Simple Thrown Weapon Expertise is based on DEX, but how many builds can actually get DEX to hit/dmg with throwers? Swap it to BAB maybe?

I dont think a blanket -20% damage is the right penalty for IPS. That's just creating a simple min-max paradigm where you need to be hitting at least 2 mobs 1 out of 5 hits for it to be numerically superior...or in other words any situation where you're not in pure single-target combat. You just coded the Strikethrough mechanic, why not adapt IPS to that, make it so the "% pass through" scales off some metric?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by droid327

- "Repeaters are where they need to be"

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Originally Posted by Cocomajobo

Repeaters are close to where they need to be

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These are not the same thing. There are a couple of important words missing from the top one that change the context of what we said to a thing we very intentionally did not say. The position of Repeaters relative to other Crossbows does not invalidate the impact that Crossbows and Ranged styles as a whole have on other parts of the game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lanttanno

I love my Ranger but having done almost every ranged build under the sun, I can honestly say he is the worst of the ranged character I have played.

That's why when I woke up this morning being promised ranged changes I was expecting some juicy buffs to ranger to go in tandem with the inquisitive nerf but a significant ranger nerf? The buffs to compensate are insignificant and don't even stack with other goodies that rangers usually take (although im not sure if primal hymn will stack).

I would suggest:
- Heavy draw and the 18th lvl arcane archer core "If you have (Insert opposite enhancement here) grants +2 critical damage multiplier instead"
- Give doubleshot to the deepwood stalker tree capstone and make the arcane archer capstone boost imbue die (could even still give doubleshot) to give full 20 rangers a point
- If you are nerfing IPS so much, maybe make T5 or a core in deepwood focus on giving manyshot more uptime or go to the passive version that was suggested years ago

My point is, can't really just nerf the underperforming for the sake of the overpowered without ****ing off a bunch of people. At least give a +20 heart to rangers if you're gonna do this.

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At this point I am unsure why the devs don't have arrow expertise somewhere in the deepwood sniper tree or as a feat people can pick up with x number or ranger or fighter levels. It would go a long way towards balancing bows vs xbows and dexterity bow users versus wisdom based bow users.

Arrow Expertise: Percent chance to shot an additional projectile is equal to your Dexterity.

Problem solved devs you're welcome.

[*]*What about bows???

• We recognize that some of the overall-ranged changes in this update reduce the amount of AOE damage that Bows can produce. However, between Archer's Focus (being a boon to Bow builds' single-target damage) and updated Deepwood Stalker, there are some boosts in this update as well. We recognize this is not an overall solution to Bows, as a combat style, having few options to help them become competitive DPS builds. We've got plans coming soon for that.

I hope that means a universal tree for bows. Cuz bows be terrible. Maybe check out Joerg Sprave on youtube. He has fast firing bows and even a double bow... double bow, 2 bows attached together... He might be part gnome.. :)

Bows should have a much faster rate of fire compared to difficult to reload xbows. The rate of fire of inquisitives is INSANE!!!!

*Improved Precise Shot now reduces Ranged Damage by 20% while active.*

This is s HUGE kick in the azz for ranged builds that aren't spamming shots. You may as well just drop 20% damage off every AOE/cleave in the game if it hits more than one target.
I'd LOVE to see you do that to casters, who can hit an entire swarm, but yet ranged (who can only do that in a STRAIGHT LINE) get a damage nerf to their only multi-target attack.

Yet another reason cleaving and casters are easier to play. Again.

So basically, IPS, which has been in the game since Module 3 in 2006, is suddenly OP due to a 2019 universal ranged tree so the solution is to nerf IPS? :confused:

In essence this change nerfs every ranged build, including the new focus on thrown weapons and the already sub-par bow builds - but, wait a bit and we'll somehow bring those up to par...the new par (of course)... sometime in the near-ish future.

I can understand and support the changes to the Inq tree. I even get the change to Ratcatcher, but it certainly feels like SSG is taking the hammer approach instead of a scalpel (and I'd settle for a knife, a big knife even).

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Originally Posted by Steelstar

These are not the same thing. There are a couple of important words missing from the top one that change the context of what we said to a thing we very intentionally did not say. The position of Repeaters relative to other Crossbows does not invalidate the impact that Crossbows and Ranged styles as a whole have on other parts of the game.

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If you're saying Repeaters on Live right now are overperforming then I have to challenge your expectations for where you think overall ranged should be...Repeaters werent invalidating melee before Inqui or anything. If you're trying to get all ranged styles to a point weaker than Repeaters on Live, then you're going to pull another gross overshoot and make ranged unfun for everyone.

I hope you pay attention to that moving forward with testing. I doubt you will though since Lama is never open for long enough and people dont actually try things that arent part of the changes, ie Repeaters. They need help, not hindrance, especially as Throwers seem primed to become high-ROF ranged weapons now too, decreasing the rolespace for RXB. Bows too for that matter, but you seem to be acknowledging how Bows are in a bad place - even as you seem to be condemning Repeaters to join them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by capsela

Agreed. Just make IPS not work with Xbows. Problem solved.

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This makes about as much sense as flying zombie potatoes. Xbows are mechanically stronger than bows, a bolt can go through a target much easier than an arrow. Only thing
an arrow has going for it is a longer range, but less impact. You want to get technical about it, make arrows have an arc, so rangers have to aim UP. wouldn't THAT be fun, too!

While I agree that Inquis needed some kind of nerf I don't understand the nerf to IPS, you just complettly crapped on bow users and dont give me this BS we boosted DWS, you SHOULD have boosted AA!!!

Inquisitive
Dual Crossbow combat style now only uses 66% of your Doubleshot.
Inquisitive Law Dice now scale with 150% Ranged Power (was 200%)
"Improved Law" and "Greater Law" in Inquisitive now grant +1 Law Die (previously +2).

This does not really address the "Insane" rate of fire that Inquisies enjoy... That is what needs to be nerfed.

In a recent run through heroics as a bow using ranger, I ran with an inquizie build who I would estimate fire 4-6 bolts to my 1 arrow. That does not make any sense.

It's like Inquizies have xbows that operate on "full auto". I would guess it is also a major contributor to the lag the game now seems to enjoy.

Please address the actual problem here, nerfing other ranged builds that well suck is not nice. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Xgemina

In essence this change nerfs every ranged build

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Yes; if you read the OP, the reasoning for this was explained under the heading "Is Ranged Weapon Combat (as an archetype) balanced where it needs to be relative to other combat styles?"

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Originally Posted by droid327

If you're saying Repeaters on Live right now are overperforming then I have to challenge your expectations for where you think overall ranged should be...Repeaters werent invalidating melee before Inqui or anything. If you're trying to get all ranged styles to a point weaker than Repeaters on Live, then you're going to pull another gross overshoot and make ranged unfun for everyone.

I hope you pay attention to that moving forward with testing. I doubt you will though since Lama is never open for long enough and people dont actually try things that arent part of the changes, ie Repeaters. They need help, not hindrance, especially as Throwers seem primed to become high-ROF ranged weapons now too, decreasing the rolespace for RXB. Bows too for that matter, but you seem to be acknowledging how Bows are in a bad place - even as you seem to be condemning Repeaters to join them.

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1) You're correct, Repeaters aren't invalidating entire builds. That's why they're getting a nudge as opposed to larger changes - They aren't dropping their Rapid Reload bonuses (unlike other combat styles), they aren't losing out in the change to make Fusilade/NHB's startup animation consistent (unless you were cheesing to get around it, in which case we do not feel bad about that loss), they aren't losing any further Doubleshot or procs or anything. Just the nudge to ranged as a style.
2) Bows are still far, far behind repeaters in DPS, even after these changes.
3) We've done extensive internal testing with these changes already, but we'll also be keeping an eye on Lamannia and make changes where needed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Assassination

This does not really address the "Insane" rate of fire that Inquisies enjoy... That is what needs to be nerfed.

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We know that is part of the issue and that has been changed in this Update, per the note "Rapid Reload now increases the reload speed of Great Crossbows, Dual Light Crossbows, and Dual Light Crossbows by less than before."

For what it's worth, Great Crossbow is only nudged down by 5% in that change; Dual Light/Heavy drop by about 20%.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steelstar

Yes; if you read the OP, the reasoning for this was explained under the heading "Is Ranged Weapon Combat (as an archetype) balanced where it needs to be relative to other combat styles?"

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Really?!? So casters who hold monster / instakill their way through content is not completely op vs everything else in this game?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steelstar

Yes; if you read the OP, the reasoning for this was explained under the heading "Is Ranged Weapon Combat (as an archetype) balanced where it needs to be relative to other combat styles?"



2) Bows are still far, far behind repeaters in DPS, even after these changes.

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Pretty easy to implement small fix and adjust this new change:

Ranger: Deepwood Stalker's Strikes Like Lightning now also adds 10% Ranged Alacrity with Longbows and Shortbows when you do not have Improved Precise Shot enabled.

Change to: Ranger: Deepwood Stalker's Strikes Like Lightning now also adds 10% Ranged Alacrity, requires Longbow or Shortbow equipped

Boom dps up on long/short bow - cant use with xbows win win win

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steelstar

2) Bows are still far, far behind repeaters in DPS, even after these changes.

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And yet, bows get nerfed as well.

There is so many illogical, self-contradictory statements going on in this thread in general it is hard to keep up.

I think we can sum it up by saying.... SSG knows long/short bows are way under performing. They are nerfing them anyway along with other forms of ranged combat. Is that about right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steelstar

1) You're correct, Repeaters aren't invalidating entire builds. That's why they're getting a nudge as opposed to larger changes - They aren't dropping their Rapid Reload bonuses (unlike other combat styles), they aren't losing out in the change to make Fusilade/NHB's startup animation consistent (unless you were cheesing to get around it, in which case we do not feel bad about that loss), they aren't losing any further Doubleshot or procs or anything. Just the nudge to ranged as a style.

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I still dont see the logic...

Repeaters on Live right now arent in a good place. I get they're part of Ranged and you think Ranged overall is too strong - but the contribution of Repeaters to that overall Ranged OPness is 0%.

You arent buffing Repeaters in any way, you're just not nerfing them as much as other builds. That doesnt help with the broader problematic Ranged-Melee dichotomy, because that dichotomy was being driven solely by Inqui and GXB and Shuri builds. Repeaters (and bows) were not part of the problem

They need a net buff this update, even if that just means some RXB-specific buffs to offset the overall ranged nerfs. Thats why I suggested removing the Doubleshot penalty for RXB that was previously put on them, or at least making it 66% consistent with DXB now. Even with that change they'd still be #3 for ranged ROF behind DXB and the new Throwers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steelstar

We know that is part of the issue and that has been changed in this Update, per the note "Rapid Reload now increases the reload speed of Great Crossbows, Dual Light Crossbows, and Dual Light Crossbows by less than before."

For what it's worth, Great Crossbow is only nudged down by 5% in that change; Dual Light/Heavy drop by about 20%.

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Ahhh now that is the REAL nerf... er balance adjustment. Warranted... but ouch. For what its worth I'm okay with the Inq changes. I don't like the IPS changes. I switched my AA from longbows to Inq because of how far she had fallen behind over the years... even with the changes to DWS I don't see going back to longbow as worth it. Especially, with the IPS change.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vorachtin

Pretty easy to implement small fix and adjust this new change:

Ranger: Deepwood Stalker's Strikes Like Lightning now also adds 10% Ranged Alacrity with Longbows and Shortbows when you do not have Improved Precise Shot enabled.

Change to: Ranger: Deepwood Stalker's Strikes Like Lightning now also adds 10% Ranged Alacrity, requires Longbow or Shortbow equipped

Boom dps up on long/short bow - cant use with xbows win win win

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This has been going on for years and years... there are lot of thing they CAN do to help long/short bows. They have consistently shown over my nearly 14 years in this game that they CHOOSE not to do so. And then they act taken aback when folks dare to insinuate that they hate long/short bows. No worming your way out of this mess SSG. You have shown your cards already.

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Originally Posted by Cocomajobo

[*][*]Rapid Reload now increases the reload speed of Great Crossbows, Dual Light Crossbows, and Dual Light Crossbows by less than before.

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I assume this is supposed to be "Dual Light Crossbows, and Dual HEAVY Crossbows" and not that heavy aren't effect...

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Originally Posted by rabidfox

I assume this is supposed to be "Dual Light Crossbows, and Dual HEAVY Crossbows" and not that heavy aren't effect...

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AH. Correct.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by barecm

This has been going on for years and years... there are lot of thing they CAN do to help long/short bows. They have consistently shown over my nearly 14 years in this game that they CHOOSE not to do so. And then they act taken aback when folks dare to insinuate that they hate long/short bows. No worming your way out of this mess SSG. You have shown your cards already.

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If you've read the OP, you'll have seen this section which bears repeating:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by barecm

We recognize this is not an overall solution to Bows, as a combat style, having few options to help them become competitive DPS builds. We've got plans coming soon for that.

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What is really getting nerfed with this update is my desire to continue playing / spending money on this game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by barecm

I think we can sum it up by saying.... SSG knows long/short bows are way under performing. They are nerfing them anyway along with other forms of ranged combat. Is that about right?

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Yes, yes it is...:) Why nerf rapid reload? Nerf Inquisitive's rate of fire. Rapid reload nerf affects other classes, playstyles that do not need to be nerfed.

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Originally Posted by Assassination

Yes, yes it is...:) Why nerf rapid reload? Nerf Inquisitive's rate of fire. Rapid reload nerf affects other classes, playstyles that do not need to be nerfed.

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Rapid Reload adjusts every Crossbow style individually, which in turn affects overall fire rate. Dual Crossbow's boost from that is now much lower than the other Crossbows. As I said above, Great Crossbows also took a nudge in this change (5%), and nothing else about Rapid Reload is changed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steelstar

If you've read the OP, you'll have seen this section which bears repeating:

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All we can see is what is currently being offered in the game. Me telling my boss that I have big plans later in the year to fix my crappy performance I am showing now, and over the past 14 years, is not going to save me from getting fired.

Gonna drop my opinion here, my main character has been AA for more lifes than i can count, this update is a big letdown on long/shortbows... Deepwood sniper is fine... But you need to boost AA! AA is the main archer class! Come on! Deepwood will be better than AA? i mean, Deepwood was suposed to be quite good on ranged as much it is on melee, and AA was suposed to be the best archer!


Can you guys think about it?

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Originally Posted by Cocomajobo

Ranger: Deepwood Stalker's Heavy Draw no longer reduces Attack by 5 when toggled on, and now also grants a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Multiplier to Longbows and Shortbows while toggled on.

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Does the new Heavy Draw intentionally not stack with Shadow Arrows from the Arcane Archer tree? While the -5 Attack penalty being removed is nice, the bonus to critical multiplier does nothing for a bow user heavily invested in both the Arcane Archer and Deepwood Stalker trees.

I wouldn't particularly care if it were not for the proposed 20% damage reduction on IPS. As a bow user, these changes are just a straight 20% damage reduction, which is pretty massive, and I do not think the 10% ranged alacrity does much of anything to make up for it. Assuming it stacks on top of other speed bonuses, this only results in a few percent faster fire rate.

I would be interested in trying out the new Archer's Focus, especially with the movement and manyshot restrictions now removed. However, resetting stacks on hitting another target makes it virtually useless. I like hit_fido's suggestion in just removing a stack or two when hitting a new target. Ranged combat is pretty great for clearing trash, and having a "boss mode" stance is great, but I can't imagine the new Archer's Focus being good for either of these things.
When running through a quest, you won't reach very many stacks. The current version of AF would work more effectively for this. Of course, it would be ideal to use IPS most of the time, but 20% is still a huge reduction.
AF is already useful during boss fights. Just stand there and deal extra damage to the boss. With the new AF, when adds come into a boss fight, your options are to either not help your party members kill them, or help and have to start your focus all over again.
I don't think these are great options and AF is better left alone than having to deal with resets. Dropping stacks instead of resetting them is a better happy medium.

I also agree with what some others have said, that if inquisitors are too powerful, then the changes to IPS should apply to crossbows and not to longbows. I don't know what kind of logical sense that makes. Maybe longbows arrows have more momentum behind them than crossbow bolts and pierce through bodies better. Who knows... but I do know this is not fair to bow users.
As an aside, I do think Shadow Arrows and Heavy Draw should stack their bonuses to Critical Multiplier, especially with the changes to IPS. Otherwise, the 20% damage reduction is the real big issue here. I don't think this is a good change.

But those are just my thoughts. I hope they made sense.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steelstar

Rapid Reload adjusts every Crossbow style individually, which in turn affects overall fire rate. Dual Crossbow's boost from that is now much lower than the other Crossbows. As I said above, Great Crossbows also took a nudge in this change (5%), and nothing else about Rapid Reload is changed.

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How about Rapid Reload does not work with Inquisitive Tree?

I'm neither here nor there on most of these changes. But I'm sad for what'll do to my Elven Arcane Archer & FvS bow builds. There were already in a weakish place and now the IPS change is gonna hit them hard. I wish there was some kind of stop gap tossed in for all bow setups (not just deepwood) until bows get the work being mentioned for later this year.

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Originally Posted by Cocomajobo

[*][*]Multitude of Missiles: Requires Point Blank Shot and +6 Base Attack Bonus: For the next 20 seconds, while wielding a Simple Thrown Weapon add 120 to your Doubleshot and 4x your Base Attack Bonus to Ranged Power. Shares a cooldown with Manyshot.

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Why not make this a 1 minute cooldown to match 10k stars at least (although 10k stars is up for 30 seconds instead of 20)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gregen

Does the new Heavy Draw intentionally not stack with Shadow Arrows from the Arcane Archer tree? While the -5 Attack penalty being removed is nice, the bonus to critical multiplier does nothing for a bow user heavily invested in both the Arcane Archer and Deepwood Stalker trees.

I wouldn't particularly care if it were not for the proposed 20% damage reduction on IPS. As a bow user, these changes are just a straight 20% damage reduction, which is pretty massive, and I do not think the 10% ranged alacrity does much of anything to make up for it. Assuming it stacks on top of other speed bonuses, this only results in a few percent faster fire rate.

I would be interested in trying out the new Archer's Focus, especially with the movement and manyshot restrictions now removed. However, resetting stacks on hitting another target makes it virtually useless. I like hit_fido's suggestion in just removing a stack or two when hitting a new target. Ranged combat is pretty great for clearing trash, and having a "boss mode" stance is great, but I can't imagine the new Archer's Focus being good for either of these things.
When running through a quest, you won't reach very many stacks. The current version of AF would work more effectively for this. Of course, it would be ideal to use IPS most of the time, but 20% is still a huge reduction.
AF is already useful during boss fights. Just stand there and deal extra damage to the boss. With the new AF, when adds come into a boss fight, your options are to either not help your party members kill them, or help and have to start your focus all over again.
I don't think these are great options and AF is better left alone than having to deal with resets. Dropping stacks instead of resetting them is a better happy medium.

I also agree with what some others have said, that if inquisitors are too powerful, then the changes to IPS should apply to crossbows and not to longbows. I don't know what kind of logical sense that makes. Maybe longbows arrows have more momentum behind them than crossbow bolts and pierce through bodies better. Who knows... but I do know this is not fair to bow users.
As an aside, I do think Shadow Arrows and Heavy Draw should stack their bonuses to Critical Multiplier, especially with the changes to IPS. Otherwise, the 20% damage reduction is the real big issue here. I don't think this is a good change.

But those are just my thoughts. I hope they made sense.

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Yes; it'd take a 63AP+ split to be there, and stacking them would drive that exact split into being optimal in a way that other bow builds (present or future) could not compete with.

To be very clear, the change to IPS does not specifically have to do with Inquisitive overperforming. It is the result of evaluating the way that Ranged Weapon Users interact with the overall build meta and (especially) melees.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Assassination

How about Rapid Reload does not work with Inquisitive Tree?

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That'd put them lower than they should be in terms of DPS. We don't want to nerf them that hard. The current set of changes keeps them competitive without invalidating other builds.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steelstar

Yes; if you read the OP, the reasoning for this was explained under the heading "Is Ranged Weapon Combat (as an archetype) balanced where it needs to be relative to other combat styles?"

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I did read it and the fact remains that until Inq, no one was complaining about how Mech GXB, AA Ranger (heh) or any ranged build (for that matter) were over powered. Inq comes along with it's dual xbow, gunslinging play and now all the sudden IPS needs nerfed after being around for 13 years. Never mind that Inq gets +1 threat/crit multiplier at lvl 12 where any other tree (other than Vistani with daggers) you get one or the other. Or all the debuffs in the Inq tree, but no, it's IPS needs to get nerfed...along with the other dual xbow nerfs.

I get that Inq and dual xbows needed some work, but you're already reducing the law damage, doubleshot and reload speed, I think y'all are using too big of a hammer with the changes to IPS along with those.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steelstar

That'd put them lower than they should be in terms of DPS. We don't want to nerf them that hard. The current set of changes keeps them competitive without invalidating other builds.

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Some of us thinks they should be nerfed much harder... Yes we do...:rolleyes: 9 out of 10 melee players agree...:)

I really don't like this whole "stick to damaging one target" thing. Inquisitives were in need of a nerf, no argument here, but these nerfs hit way too many other builds, and having less viable builds is never a good thing. I would very much appreciate a way to nerf Inquisitives that won't carpet bomb a dozen other builds.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steelstar

Yes; it'd take a 63AP+ split to be there, and stacking them would drive that exact split into being optimal in a way that other bow builds (present or future) could not compete with.

To be very clear, the change to IPS does not specifically have to do with Inquisitive overperforming. It is the result of evaluating the way that Ranged Weapon Users interact with the overall build meta and (especially) melees.

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Ah, okay. That makes sense. Thanks for the response. I just hope the overall hit isn't too hard when the update goes live.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steelstar

3) We've done extensive internal testing with these changes already, but we'll also be keeping an eye on Lamannia and make changes where needed.

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You said virtually the exact same thing when INQ was initially released and then ignored all the Lam (and subsequent regular forum) feedback that it was too much and yet here we are today. You reap what you sow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steelstar

To be very clear, the change to IPS does not specifically have to do with Inquisitive overperforming. It is the result of evaluating the way that Ranged Weapon Users interact with the overall build meta and (especially) melees.

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You're not going to able to sell that horse, it's already half-dead. There were no issues for a decade, about ranged doing damage in a line,
which isn't as effective as actual AOE builds, until we tossed in Inquisitor metas. Our BARD does more damage than our IPS ranger, because
he hits harder and in a cone. You may as well make it a blanket nerf-all-multiattack-to-anything parade of server bonfires.

From what we've seen so far, our guild arti's going melee cleave, and we lost all our rangers. Waiting a decade to murder a feat that made playing non-spell AOE builds tolerable is pitiful.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde

Okay, this here is not an improvement to Archer's Focus, this is a HUGE, HUGE nerf and means that Archer's Focus is basically ONLY useful for killing boss mobs that you fight EXCLUSIVELY by themselves. Currently, MOVING is what resets your stacks, so as long as you hold still you can DPS an entire room of mobs at full stacks to really get the damage in. When dealing with trash you should be switching targets frequently, which means you'll never get more than a stack or two before it goes away. And what if you have to switch targets to heal someone or cast a spell or something?!

This is dumb and I can TELL it's dumb without even TESTING it. If you want to improve Archer's Focus just REMOVE the "goes away when you move" limitation. Remove ALL "goes away" except from stacks EXPIRING. That would make it actually competitive with IPS, particularly in situations where it's quite hard to line mobs up.

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Not only that, but it means no one will be using paralyzing arrows anymore either, which previously benefited from archer's focus, but was still sub-par dps, the trade off being CC on a room of trash mobs. Now you've further limited dps from an already sub-dps tactic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by barecm

Really?!? So casters who hold monster / instakill their way through content is not completely op vs everything else in this game?

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You say that as if DC spellcasters get to do that with no effort.

Believe me, getting the high DCs necessary to "instakill their way through combat" takes a HUGE amount of time and effort.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DRoark

There were no issues for a decade, about ranged doing damage in a line,
which isn't as effective as actual AOE builds, until we tossed in Inquisitor metas.

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Indeed! All aoe is not the same and linear aoe isn't nearly as useful as circular or cone. It wasn't an issue until inqui could actually do damage with a ranged build.

The addition of strikethrough finally looks like it's carved out rolespace nicely for the styles...twf is ST, thf is AOE cone, SWF is ST with easier restraints or hybrid thf with bsword, and ranged is linear aoe. Feels like you're solving the problem twice by nerfing ips while you're adding strike through.

Adjust the damage on ranged builds individually as needed, but the geometry of IPS is not itself a problem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arkat

You say that as if DC spellcasters get to do that with no effort.

Believe me, getting the high DCs necessary to "instakill their way through combat" takes a HUGE amount of time and effort.

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And yet still very prevalent and never addressed when we talk about OP combat styles. By effort I am assuming you mean wearing a bunch of gear that boosts your main stat and Appropriate DC items? Maybe it takes proper planning, but effort? Every well made character requires the right gear so....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cocomajobo

[*][*]Improved Precise Shot now reduces Ranged Damage by 20% while active.[*][*]Rapid Reload now increases the reload speed of Great Crossbows, Dual Light Crossbows, and Dual Light Crossbows by less than before.[*][*]Dual Crossbow combat style now only uses 66% of your Doubleshot.[*][*]Inquisitive Law Dice now scale with 150% Ranged Power (was 200%)[*][*]"Improved Law" and "Greater Law" in Inquisitive now grant +1 Law Die (previously +2).

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you guys really don't go for half measures, do you.

Nerfing IPS because Inquisitive is brokenly OP is insanely stupid.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neo-Masamune

Gonna drop my opinion here, my main character has been AA for more lifes than i can count, this update is a big letdown on long/shortbows... Deepwood sniper is fine... But you need to boost AA! AA is the main archer class! Come on! Deepwood will be better than AA? i mean, Deepwood was suposed to be quite good on ranged as much it is on melee, and AA was suposed to be the best archer!


Can you guys think about it?

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Man, you're dedicated, I've stopped playing my archer and moved to a new main ages ago. Feels nice to have a vaguely competent toon for a change. Bows are just not worth it - not now, not five years ago.

Also problem is, there's nothing much wrong with AA and DWS as such. The problem is with bows as part of ranged / as compared to other ranged styles. And it's not AA / DWS getting nerfed, it's bows (as part of ranged). So until they do something about bows, minor handouts to ranger trees aren't gonna offer much comfort.


P.S. I came to this thread excited at the thought of playing a ranged-focused Silver Flame paladin. Now I'm at a loss :/

The nerf to IPS is horrible. IPS was one of those very few abilities in DDO that added a tactical angle to the game. It was a decent feat as-is, but when used by a skilled player that could line up mobs correctly, it was devastatingly good. It made ranged builds fun to play, and it gave an advantage to players who really knew how to use it. Now? It still will, but the kick to classic ranged-typed builds is devastating. Inquisitive needed to be nerfed, but not rangers. They're bad enough already.

The new Archer's Focus is a joke. It will be useless in practically every situation except for bosses (which let's be honest, in 99% of content bosses are a joke anyways). At the very least, "Once per second" needs to go. Mobs are dead in less than a second in most content.

Archer's Focus should be kept as-is, except remove the "stationary" aspect. Making the stacks reset every time you hit a new mob is going to make for a useless feat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by barecm

And yet still very prevalent and never addressed when we talk about OP combat styles. By effort I am assuming you mean wearing a bunch of gear that boosts your main stat and Appropriate DC items? Maybe it takes proper planning, but effort? Every well made character requires the right gear so....

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Dude, I'm starting to build a DC-focused favored soul, and it's not nearly as easy as you say or think. Even forgetting the gear part of the equation (which is relevant for any build, but, shockingly, also takes effort), you're not getting a competent (let alone no-fail) DC caster without multiple past lives - as many as you can stomach, really - which is a ridiculous time investment. It takes years to where you get to just "dance in and clear the room".

Bottom line - if it were so easy, everyone would be doing it. In reality, competent DC casters per server are in low double if not single digits.

So maybe try to actually roll a first-life DC caster and take him to EEs - and then report back on how well you do :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by capsela

IPS is still OP and hasn't enough drawbacks.

Based on the 20% nerf to IPS I see nothing changing. It's still a hobson's choice.

100% damage to 1 mob or 80% damage to all mobs. No brainer there. Nothing will change and we'll be back here in 6 months with another IPS nerf.

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I have doubts about you actually using IPS. Even when you get mobs lined up, there are height issues. Try using IPS on a group of drow with spiders. You will hit one or the other, but not both.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xgemina

So basically, IPS, which has been in the game since Module 3 in 2006, is suddenly OP due to a 2019 universal ranged tree so the solution is to nerf IPS? :confused:

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Yeah, the IPS hit does not compute.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steelstar

To be very clear, the change to IPS does not specifically have to do with Inquisitive overperforming. It is the result of evaluating the way that Ranged Weapon Users interact with the overall build meta and (especially) melees.

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IPS is the hardest multitarget damage to use. (Yes, I've played, casters and thf cleavers etc).

Overall, I have to say that reading the OP on ranged changes, I just am walking away pretty ****ed off.

You want lama feedback? Keep it up longer than 36 hours. Showing us you will listen to that feedback would also be helpful. I used to do a lot of lama testing, but time after time Turbine showed all of us that it was really just a preview server. So far, you are not doing a good job of showing us anything different from the old Turbine and Mournlands days.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cocomajobo

As we approach each Hardcore season, one of our goals is to make changes that change how you build and play characters - We want to shake up builds and strategies, and it makes sense to align these game-wide changes with the release of new seasons of the Hardcore League. Season 2 is coming very soon, so U45 contains a lot of the balance changes for the season. Some of this process involves identifying underperforming builds and making changes to boost them - KOTC and Two Handed Fighting changes are a big part of this in this Season. However, this process also involves identifying overperforming builds and archetypes and making adjustments as well.

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I hope my fellow players have not missed all there is to unpack here.

1. It's an active goal of the development team to change how we build and play characters? Why? As you introduce new elements to the game (races, classes, trees, etc.) that will happen organically for those who choose to change, right? There's a gap the size of the Grand Canyon between "we want to offer more diversity in the available build options" and "our goal is to make changes that change how you build and play characters".
2. Why would this align with Hardcore League at all? Will these changes ONLY be live on the Hardcore servers? What about players who have no interest in Hardcore League? Are these changes "good" for them too? It seems (on the surface) that you're attempting to "shake things up" right before a Hardcore season to make it more interesting, which leaves those with zero interest in Hardcore baffled by many of the design decisions you've made.
3. Where did the data for the overperforming and underperforming builds come from? Again, the association with Hardcore League seems like a bad place to design from as this caters to the more skilled players. Where are the LOW-END builds on each of these? How will the new/returning player experience be affected by the changes? What about the players who aren't as good at DDO? Do you really think you'll stop Nightmare from making builds which can crit for over 50k+? (you won't)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by barecm

How about removing the IPS penalty for long/short bows since you have already stated they are underperforming.
I am failing to see the logic behind penalizing long/short bows for the sins of crossbows.
In fact it is just going to fire up an already upset base of players.

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/agree

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redoubt

You want lama feedback? Keep it up longer than 36 hours.

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Yeah I got a big problem with this too...

Lama is not open long enough to get useful feedback. Only a fraction of the playerbase even know Lama is open because they never make an announcement in the regular Dev Tracker, so players who arent following closely every day might not realize its open until the last day or till its already over.

Then of the fraction that does update and log into Lama, I'd say roughly 80% of them are not testing the new content, but just using the opportunity to sandbox stuff they wanted to try on Live, or figure out what they want to plan for their main.

The actual testing we need - trying to figure out the new metas, trying to break it with edge cases, etc. - that takes a few days before people get to that point. So we never get to that point. So we end up having to deal with massive rebalance patches like this, because all the stuff that should've come out in testing didnt come out till after it went Live for a while.

First off, Lama should just stay open on the current Live build whenever its not being used for testing. That way people always have a sandbox server to try things out on. Even if that's a VIP-only privilege, at least that'd free up a lot of players to go right to testing when a new patch hits. Then second, Lama should be open at least 5 days if not 7 to let the data collection process mature. I'd rather spend 2 extra days waiting for the patch than spend 2 weeks in a process like we're in now trying to rebalance it after the fact, and have everyone ticked off because they already invested heavily in the Live build, assuming it was balanced and WAI.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by karatemack

Do you really think you'll stop Nightmare from making builds which can crit for over 50k+? (you won't)[/LIST]

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This is such a good statement. I would follow up with my answer.... As long as there are instakills in the game, and mobs have 100K plus hps (non boss / raid boss), you will have builds that can deal over 50k (or 100k, or whatever levels orange named can get to).

The difference is that SSG does nothing about instakills, yet consistently nerfs long / short bows to the point where you cannot reasonably compete. Even after they SSG finally admits they are underpowered... they nerf them again. Un-bleeping-believable!

Something that should be added to all ranged damage ... damage reduction over distance...


The further away you are the less damage you do... the whole 10 mile ranged full dps is pretty much bs... for players and mobs..

https://ddowiki.com/page/Deepwood_St...ents#Tier_Five

What about Improved Archers Focus? You can now stack Archer's focus to 25 instead of 15.

Trash gets cleared FAST in this game, even at high reaper. How the heck is anyone gonna get 25 stacks? And if by Khyber's light they DO reach 25, how long will that monster be alive?

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Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt

Man, you're dedicated, I've stopped playing my archer and moved to a new main ages ago. Feels nice to have a vaguely competent toon for a change. Bows are just not worth it - not now, not five years ago.

Also problem is, there's nothing much wrong with AA and DWS as such. The problem is with bows as part of ranged / as compared to other ranged styles. And it's not AA / DWS getting nerfed, it's bows (as part of ranged). So until they do something about bows, minor handouts to ranger trees aren't gonna offer much comfort.


P.S. I came to this thread excited at the thought of playing a ranged-focused Silver Flame paladin. Now I'm at a loss :/

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I love AA too much to let it go! This update was suposed to be a blast but im all disapointed!

Sad story!

I dont even use deepwood anymore! I mix AA with falcon tree all lifes to get the WIS as high as i can do paralyze/fear as much as possible!


So Boost AA! not only deepood! and in general long/shortbows need a big boost too... kinda sad story for my favorite toon ever in this game, been playing AAs for years! I dont wanna stop now!

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Originally Posted by DRoark

*Improved Precise Shot now reduces Ranged Damage by 20% while active.*

This is s HUGE kick in the azz for ranged builds that aren't spamming shots. You may as well just drop 20% damage off every AOE/cleave in the game if it hits more than one target.
I'd LOVE to see you do that to casters, who can hit an entire swarm, but yet ranged (who can only do that in a STRAIGHT LINE) get a damage nerf to their only multi-target attack.

Yet another reason cleaving and casters are easier to play. Again.

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So much this. Plus reduction in rate of fire for crossbow wielders and limitation of 66% of DS?! Shall we increase spell and cleave cool-down times while we're at it? Understand the nerf to law damage dice but these other changes are nerfing bows because Rogue Mechanics using GXbows are OP. So much over-kill.

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Originally Posted by Son_of_the_South

So much this. Plus reduction in rate of fire for crossbow wielders and limitation of 66% of DS?! Shall we increase spell and cleave cool-down times while we're at it? Understand the nerf to law damage dice but these other changes are nerfing bows because Rogue Mechanics using GXbows are OP. So much over-kill.

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Longbow users paying penance for the sins of the xbows. SSG simply doesn't get it, or worse... doesn't care.

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Originally Posted by Son_of_the_South

So much this. Plus reduction in rate of fire for crossbow wielders and limitation of 66% of DS?! Shall we increase spell and cleave cool-down times while we're at it? Understand the nerf to law damage dice but these other changes are nerfing bows because Rogue Mechanics using GXbows are OP. So much over-kill.

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For clarity (and apologies if I'm misunderstanding your words here), the Doubleshot reduction is specific to the Dual Crossbow style, not to ranged overall.

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Originally Posted by Neo-Masamune

I mix AA with falcon tree all lifes to get the WIS as high as i can do paralyze/fear as much as possible!

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And with the change to archers focus you are going to do even less dps on a paralyzer build than previously.

* I think the changes to IPS are necessary for the game balance.
* I think the changes to archers focus are done poorly and need to be reconfigured. I would suggest keeping the original archers focus for now, if not even improving it. People will sit down and do the math and realize if they had a peppermint +45 ranged power but could only hit 1 target they would still accept a 20% decrease in damage loss and use IPS. So frankly you should increase the capacity of archers focus, not decrease it.

Question:
* the -20% damage loss when using IPS, how is that done? Is it -20 Ranged power? Is it -20% attack speed. Is it -20% base damage (like a reverse zombie)?
* Can you give us the new attack animation rate of various different ranged weapon stiles now that your changing rapid reload so we don't have to manual test that out again?

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Originally Posted by Lynnabel

For clarity (and apologies if I'm misunderstanding your words here), the Doubleshot reduction is specific to the Dual Crossbow style, not to ranged overall.

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Thanks for the clarification, I do get that the DS reduction is targeted towards dual crossbow wielders. 66% is major over-kill. Balance yes but a Wrath of God (MTG reference there for you) is not balance (especially considering the nerf to IPS).

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Originally Posted by Ausdoerrt

So maybe try to actually roll a first-life DC caster and take him to EEs - and then report back on how well you do :)

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Invalid; the developers have specifically stated that elite content is not designed for new players/characters.

So, my 2 cents.

The IPS change is fine, people who are complaining about it do not have the rest of the game in perspective. Spell casters are brought up a lot - sure, their AoE may be superior situationally. If you are stuck using lightning bolt or another direct line offensive spell similar in profile to an IPS shot, it is much worse than IPS because the consequences of not lining up your shot properly are much more significant when you are not firing multiple times a second. Other AOE spells are definitely nicer, but even then, spell casters only feel so strong functionally due to the nature of how front loaded their damage is. This is very useful for trash clearing, but their single target DPS is not close to non bow ranged builds in exchange. If you look at melees, they have cleave instead of IPS. Cleave is easier to use, but both has a cooldown, and has a MUCH bigger than 20% damage penalty - the inability to doublestrike. IPS is still a very strong stance, it may be tricky with IPS to line up full large groups, but its definitely not remotely hard to line up at least 1 additional mob for IPS, and under that circumstance its already a 60% damage boost after the nerf.

If I had some asks it would be these:

- Make the speed of toggling between the two stances nearly instant, or if necessary make it that way at least if you have quick draw or something.
- Even more importantly, please make it so its not stacks building on you as you hit an enemy multiple times, make it build on the enemy instead. It will still have the same desired effect of encouraging usage during single target bursting or focus firing. But heaven forbid that you have to change targets for a moment for any reason and then go to tab back to your prior target and happen to fire off a shot. (To be clear, I mean make it so the stacks stay on the enemy even if you hit another target so that if you go back to that enemy the stacks are still there.)

Bow users - I feel your pain. I understand all the concerns, and it sucks to get the short end of the stick now, but they have clearly stated that they are doing the bow pass soon. There was a TON in this update, I was definitely pleasantly surprised with how much systems changes we got this time around, and the fact that they just could not squeeze the bow rework into this update as well is unfortunate but not surprising. Its definitely going to suck even more for the bow for the next few months but its not like that is new. SSG has already stated that they are planning the bow update for this year, ideally that means U46, but if not at least its no more than 48 at the extreme end since they generally only fit 3 or 4 updates a year. It is just a reality of game development that they cant fit an unlimited amount of changes into a single update, and bows got the shaft this time. But as far as making any sort of commentary on the target state of bows, thats just going to have to wait until the bow pass occurs. So, it sucks to say it, but suck it up.

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Originally Posted by ZzpxpzZ

Bow users - I feel your pain. I understand all the concerns, and it sucks to get the short end of the stick now, but they have clearly stated that they are doing the bow pass soon. There was a TON in this update, I was definitely pleasantly surprised with how much systems changes we got this time around, and the fact that they just could not squeeze the bow rework into this update as well is unfortunate but not surprising. Its definitely going to suck even more for the bow for the next few months but its not like that is new. SSG has already stated that they are planning the bow update for this year, ideally that means U46, but if not at least its no more than 48 at the extreme end since they generally only fit 3 or 4 updates a year. It is just a reality of game development that they cant fit an unlimited amount of changes into a single update, and bows got the shaft this time. But as far as making any sort of commentary on the target state of bows, thats just going to have to wait until the bow pass occurs. So, it sucks to say it, but suck it up.

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Then leave short / long bow users the heck alone until they are ready to roll out the changes. There is absolutely no reason to nerf bows now because xbows are over performing. As usual, longbows have the price to pay. Well, I don’t want to have to suck it up. The devs need to suck it up and leave us alone until the can do the whole fix, not leaving us hanging out to dry HOPING the fix comes later this year; no guarantees there either. A whole **** year or more of being worse than the terrible state we were already in? Screw that. I am canceling my sub as soon as this pile of garbage goes live.

Folks want to come on the forums and call for nerfs. If you constantly call for them, then you shouldn't complain when they effect something you like playing. I been playing this game for a long time and have never asked for a nerf. Never complained someone's new build is more powerful than I have. I think things should be put in the game and left. If SSG get it right to start with, well that is what you gave folks to play with. I am not opposed to buffing classes that need it, but to use the old nerf bat. I am so tied of seeing it asked for and it being done. Spend the time to build new things. Spend the time to fix actual game problems.

Before you say I just want the easy button, I have not played most of the "OP" builds over the years. I actually play things I enjoy. I did not play the wolf build that was so OP at one point. I don't like druids. I have not played the "OP" Arty builds, I don't like Arties. I have played Inquisitor and since it is some people paid for, think is in disingenuous to change after release. I am not a purist, I could care less if class X is stronger than class Y. Does people enjoy playing them? Should be only question.

I still remember the days when people were looked up on MYDDO and if you were not built as others thought, you were not allowed in groups. The same issue existed with that mentality then as it does in these nerf arguments. Player experience makes a big difference that can't be addressed in these assessments. I still remember tanking raids for a friend of mine that always had to explain why he was letting my funky build, no one else understood, tank. I remember him asking a bard to heal me through a raid because he was sure the cleric would need to help the rest of the group. Then the bard coming over voice saying he was bored, did he have to stay with me. This was years ago and well before all the stuff we see now. People did not understand my build, but it worked for me and my play style.

I honestly don't group with anyone anymore other than my wife. All the people worried about kill count or someone else not having the optimal build ruins the fun of just playing the game. People keep forgetting it is a game, play it and have fun.

Sinfully/Fopo of Sarlona

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Originally Posted by Cocomajobo

We recognize that some of the overall-ranged changes in this update reduce the amount of AOE damage that Bows can produce. However, between Archer's Focus (being a boon to Bow builds' single-target damage) and updated Deepwood Stalker, there are some boosts in this update as well. We recognize this is not an overall solution to Bows, as a combat style, having few options to help them become competitive DPS builds. We've got plans coming soon for that.

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Originally Posted by Cocomajobo

Ranger
Ranger: Deepwood Stalker's Heavy Draw no longer reduces Attack by 5 when toggled on, and now also grants a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Multiplier to Longbows and Shortbows while toggled on.
Ranger: Deepwood Stalker's Strikes Like Lightning now also adds 10% Ranged Alacrity with Longbows and Shortbows when you do not have Improved Precise Shot enabled.

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Bows are weak, so here is.... Well look at that, absolutely nothing of value. Maybe "We've got plans coming soon for that" SoonTM will occur before hell freezes over. Bows havent even been in a DECENT spot since MOTU. Then for some unknown reason rangers are actually one of the worst bow users in the game! Fighters, monks, and now even wizards are better at using bows than rangers.
Arcane Archer is hot garbage, and honestly if yall want help with a good gameplay tree to replace AA with let me know. I'll work on one, even let you all do the numbers for balance.
Also why does DWS Strikes like Lightning ONLY WORK OUTSIDE OF IPS?!?!? Stop limiting Bows, like you even said. They are way below where they should be.

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Originally Posted by Cocomajobo

Ranger Enhancements
Dance of Death's buff now grants you the ability to Strikethrough with melee attacks regardless of Combat Style for the duration of the buff (10 seconds), and grants +0%/100%/200% Strikethrough Chance for the duration of the buff. These replace the previous component that allowed you to hit multiple targets directly.
Dance of Death's cooldown is now 30 seconds.

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Im only quoting this because the only good part of ranger is now getting nerfed. Fighter, Barb, Paladin, all better DPS just for TWF. So what's the point of playing ranger now other than for just being a ranger?

PS: Potential fixes to bows and rangers.
1) RANGER granted feat (lvls 12 & 18) Permanently shoots another arrow when firing. (Passive Many shot, remove active if you want) This fix lessens the gap for DPS bow users, not crit bow users like fighters, and keeps monks from getting buffed to stay consistent with the past year worth of patches.
2) Remove Arcane Archer tree (or name it Arcane Toggle Archer) its a bad version of EK
3) Increase Ranged Alacrity of bows by 200% (still not even enough of a dps bump to match great xbows)

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Originally Posted by Stealthsiren

Bows are weak, so here is.... Well look at that, absolutely nothing of value. Maybe "We've got plans coming soon for that" SoonTM will occur before hell freezes over. Bows havent even been in a DECENT spot since MOTU. Then for some unknown reason rangers are actually one of the worst bow users in the game! Fighters, monks, and now even wizards are better at using bows than rangers.
Arcane Archer is hot garbage, and honestly if yall want help with a good gameplay tree to replace AA with let me know. I'll work on one, even let you all do the numbers for balance.
Also why does DWS Strikes like Lightning ONLY WORK OUTSIDE OF IPS?!?!? Stop limiting Bows, like you even said. They are way below where they should be.



Im only quoting this because the only good part of ranger is now getting nerfed. Fighter, Barb, Paladin, all better DPS just for TWF. So what's the point of playing ranger now other than for just being a ranger?

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I honestly think they have no idea what to do so we have an amalgamation of several ideas thrown around in a dev meeting. No plan, no thought to how players will react. Just shoving a bunch of **** down our throats because their last great idea failed.