Shout Out To All The Rogues

[Arkantios]

Hey guys, so as most of us know, rogues have been set at a bit of a decline for quite a while, dps, assassinate, and some other stuff. I've been playing one myself for roughly 3 years or so and it's still my favorite class. If I want to play one, it's going to be a pure 20 assassin. Sadly we hardly ever see them anymore because it's basically just a flavor build. The assassinate DC is ridiculously hard to get viable for the hardest content and people usually just splash 1-2 rogue for the evasion/trapping.

There are tons of other things to rant about with rogues, especially with the new twf "proxy nerf". Well, plus the fact that a 14-15 Rog/5-6 Bard can assassinate things better than a pure one can. Thing is, I want to hear what you guys think about rogues, pure or not. Acrobat, Assassin, Mechanic. Tell me everything. What's wrong with it, whats awesome, what should stay and go, what you guys think should be changed and what it should be changed to. Absolutely everything

I'm going to make a report of all the feedback I get on this because I believe that rogues really need some loving and nobody is doing anything about it. Everything from random thoughts to heartfelt confessions are needed. If anyone can give actual damage data and whatnot that would be amazing. Twf/swf/heck even thf rogue data would be awesome. This report I'm making will hopefully be shot up a few ladders.

Show your love for rogues, lets steal back that throne that has always belonged to us.

[LuKaSu]

This probably won't be a common response, but at least for me, I stopped liking my rogue around when they did the last armor pass. Before that point, I felt that my Dwarven Rogue/Fighter was really fun. After that, he just felt... a lot more squishy. When I saw that my rogue was more squishy, while at the same time, feeling out-dps'd by heavier classes, rogues, for me, became a splash class.

I've got a pure rogue that I keep picking up every week or two, hoping that he will be fun, but he just isn't as much fun as he used to. He's only level 12, but even with being half way there, I don't have the desire to stick with him long enough to get him to 20 to TR him into something else. I expect to reroll him, instead, within the next couple weeks.

[hp1055cm]

I don't see any problem with Rogues as is, especially when you consider they are so versatile. Evasion, Improved Evasion, High skill points, UMD, Locks and traps, decent melee ability, hide and sneak... what is not to like? Maybe the HP is a little low but there are ways to compensate for that. Splash Rogues are quite popular and keeping a few skills maxed doesn't require taking many Rogue levels.
As for the Assassin types I can't really say since I haven't ever tried that flavor.

What I hear you saying is that you want a pure Rogue to have the same potential benefit as a multi-class rogue so you can stay pure but not feel inferior in any way to other partial-rogues? Am I right?

[Chai]

DC inflation shot up more quickly than assassins could add DC. While this isn't crippling in and of itself as of yet, its getting to the point where another iteration of saves inflation will make it an unrealistic uphill battle.

The stealth system where mobs just have a red eye appear over their heads arbitrarily saying they detect you needs to go. I want to see the character sheet with the breakdown of how this fighter mob has the 100+ spot/listen skill needed to see me.

The trap system is much improved, and rogues can make CC type traps which work in EE.

[Arkantios]

What I hear you saying is that you want a pure Rogue to have the same potential benefit as a multi-class rogue so you can stay pure but not feel inferior in any way to other partial-rogues? Am I right?

Partially. For instance a pure assassin rogue shouldnt only have a few more d6 SA than a deep splash one. It doesn't really stop there though. I personally dont really play mechs but ive heard complaints about about them as well as just the rogue class in general. I understand that rogue has the versatility. That is a complete given. I've built a pure rogue that could pull raid boss aggro off a pali tank, and hold it from the rest of the party, even with monkchers and whatnot. I understand that how much they actually can do. Comparing them is where they start to lack.

Bards in this last update basically cast the rogues away. Besides the sneak attack a bard can do mostly everything a rogue can and better. They get evasion if they go pure and take the swash capstone I believe. If they want to splash, which is normally recommended, they can splash 2 rogue for traps and evasion possibly, maybe fighter or other things, and not lose much. Rogues can heal with scrolls, bards with quite a few spells and spell power. Rogues can do tons of damage from SA and the multiple weapons they use, if you're a bard and swashing you kick the hell out of the rogues dps basically. *This is considering two highly skilled and geared builds*. Bards also get all sorts of spells over rogues, songs, stunning abilities, etc. And yes I realize that rogues can UMD stuff, but in personally am not fond of using a 30 second scroll. Also yes, gs is an option for displacement, but not needed with bard.

So to asking for more as a pure than a splash, I suppose yeah. Yet, it makes sense to do so, even if that isnt the main thing to be done. Rogues need a boost in general. Not just to assassins, mechs, or acrobats. Not just to splashes, and not just to pures.

[Arkantios]

DC inflation shot up more quickly than assassins could add DC. While this isn't crippling in and of itself as of yet, its getting to the point where another iteration of saves inflation will make it an unrealistic uphill battle.

The stealth system where mobs just have a red eye appear over their heads arbitrarily saying they detect you needs to go. I want to see the character sheet with the breakdown of how this fighter mob has the 100+ spot/listen skill needed to see me.

The trap system is much improved, and rogues can make CC type traps which work in EE.

See these are exactly the things I'm talking about. I love seeing these. The trap system drastically got improved, yeah the dc thing has always been a problem, and the stealth system is a little wacky. Especially so when we were able to jump, that still weirds me out.

[Hafeal]

My triple life pure Rogue Assassin is one of my favorite characters. He is my main for our 5 year static group.

Granted he is x3 life, Shadur-Kai.

I have little difficulty on EH or lower dishing massive DPS and killing enemy casters fast. I had little trouble in my other lives. Certainly gear helps, as does better knowledge of the game and its mechanics.

EE is challenging - as it is supposed to be. If you get into trouble, death is a real possibility - as it is for anyone. You have to make careful decisions - but - it is still easy to be effective. EE, to me, means you probably will not be as effective as you want until, in fact, you have several past lives. Don't zerg EE like EH or any other lower setting, THAT is what I see as being the typical recipe for disaster.

[Arkantios]

My triple life pure Rogue Assassin is one of my favorite characters. He is my main for our 5 year static group.

Granted he is x3 life, Shadur-Kai.

I have little difficulty on EH or lower dishing massive DPS and killing enemy casters fast. I had little trouble in my other lives. Certainly gear helps, as does better knowledge of the game and its mechanics.

EE is challenging - as it is supposed to be. If you get into trouble, death is a real possibility - as it is for anyone. You have to make careful decisions - but - it is still easy to be effective. EE, to me, means you probably will not be as effective as you want until, in fact, you have several past lives. Don't zerg EE like EH or any other lower setting, THAT is what I see as being the typical recipe for disaster.

Yep, knowledge of mechanics insanely helps with rogues. Knowing distances for certain attacks, assassinate for instance in being able to hit multiple targets at once. Even if they are on completely opposite sides of you.

[Arkantios]

Posting this for my friend since this site apparently hates him.

(Tell): Bladefirez tells you, 'been playing ddo for about 6 years now, i was a total noob for the first 2 years cuz of life and played on and off... but the next 4 years, all my toons have a splash of rogue 2 for trapping'

(Tell): Bladefirez tells you, 'i rarely got a rogue to lvl 20 xD, my highest is lvl 12 and i hated assassin'

(Tell): Bladefirez tells you, 'another immprovement, hopefully, is the ability of a mechanic to manufacture bolts via trap parts since they dont have magical properties like arti'

[Arkantios]

Posting this from another thread

Please add assassin to the list of unplayable classes in DDO. After 3 years I was excited to finally reach 3x completionist and settle down with my DC 74 Drow assassin. You can search my prior posts stating how much fun I have had playing a rogue in DDO. Sadly, an entire prestige class has been ruined for no reason other than poor game design.

On assassinate, any surviving mobs now instantly see you. While this might seem like "realism", it makes this class unplayable, because there is no way to be unseen until all mobs are killed. The premier assassin ability is now a joke.

TWF is now unusable because you don't even get 2 attempts at assassinate (they see you after attempt 1). Double kills are gone. You are no longer hidden after a successful assassinate.

Congratulations on making the only class that relied on melee positioning, understanding of mob movement, player movement, tactical decisions, and making it a heaping pile of dung. Assassins rely on remaining unseen and this is no longer possible. This used to be one of the most challenging and fun classes to play in DDO. Assassin is now a terrible version of every other melee fighter.

If you are thinking about trying out an assassin, DON'T! It now ranks below barbarian in playability.

In an attempt to change aggro to ranged toons, dev's ruined an entire prestige class...

HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO BE THIS BAD AT GAME DESIGN?

[Arkantios]

Post from another thread.

Move assassinate enhancement to lvl 12 core.

Move Measure the foe to tier 4.

Move Execute to tier 5 and change "assassinate melee attack" to "melee or ranged attack" and add: When living target is helpless kills instantly.

Add new Tier 5 enhancement - Student of anatomy: You get Intelligence to Damage with melee weapon attacks

That would be pretty balanced post update 22 game in my opinion.

[nokowi]

Hey guys, so as most of us know, rogues have been set at a bit of a decline for quite a while, dps, assassinate, and some other stuff. I've been playing one myself for roughly 3 years or so and it's still my favorite class. If I want to play one, it's going to be a pure 20 assassin. Sadly we hardly ever see them anymore because it's basically just a flavor build. The assassinate DC is ridiculously hard to get viable for the hardest content and people usually just splash 1-2 rogue for the evasion/trapping.

There are tons of other things to rant about with rogues, especially with the new twf "proxy nerf". Well, plus the fact that a 14-15 Rog/5-6 Bard can assassinate things better than a pure one can. Thing is, I want to hear what you guys think about rogues, pure or not. Acrobat, Assassin, Mechanic. Tell me everything. What's wrong with it, whats awesome, what should stay and go, what you guys think should be changed and what it should be changed to. Absolutely everything

I'm going to make a report of all the feedback I get on this because I believe that rogues really need some loving and nobody is doing anything about it. Everything from random thoughts to heartfelt confessions are needed. If anyone can give actual damage data and whatnot that would be amazing. Twf/swf/heck even thf rogue data would be awesome. This report I'm making will hopefully be shot up a few ladders.

Show your love for rogues, lets steal back that throne that has always belonged to us.

The specific issues with assassin are
1. It requires too much effort in build and play skill for the average DDO player
2. bugged agro system as of U22
3. bugged assasssinate ability (~10% error rate with a 100% success DC)
4. DC's are fine for most DDO content (74 max). Exceptions include EE Stormhorms and EH/EE FTP raid.
5. using TWF on moving targets is a miss-fest.

I would like to see assassin remain a niche class for the truly skilled with weaknesses that offset the power of the class.
I would like to see the U22 assassin bugs fixed quickly. You can see most of them here http://youtu.be/L26aUlKgchc
I would like assassin DC's to be balanced only with the new equipment that is released with new content. If assassins need a +10 assassinate item for new content, make this available/usable only at max level with new content. Current content (while leveling) should remain challenging for an assassin.
Please, please, please, no easy buttons.

The acrobat/mechanic builds probably need their own set of love to remain viable. Useful elemental traps would go a long way towards the mechanic tree viable. Someone with 40 pts in the mechanic tree should be 3-4x better at trap damage than someone with 8 points in the tree.

Suggestions:
Each point spent in the mechanic tree adds 10% to elemental trap damage. Base elemental trap damage may need a boost as well.

[FAQ]

I am currently playing my rogue life as a pure 20 shadar-kai assassin and it's been a blast. I don't play EE so I can say anything about DC viability, but I believe rogues deserve a little more love.

[Arkantios]

I would like to see assassin remain a niche class for the truly skilled with weaknesses that offset the power of the class.
I would like to see the U22 assassin bugs fixed quickly. You can see most of them here http://youtu.be/L26aUlKgchc
I would like assassin DC's to be balanced only with the new equipment that is released with new content. If assassins need a +10 assassinate item for new content, make this available/usable only at max level with new content. Current content (while leveling) should remain challenging for an assassin.
Please, please, please, no easy buttons.

The bolded parts are the most important. I absolutely love that it's a hard class to play. It should stay that way regardless of what changes are applied. Especially with the second bold part. Please no easy buttons.

[Arkantios]

Please don't turn rogue into bard (no weaknesses). As annoyed as I am at the implementation of bard, making rogue an easy button would make me leave DDO forever. Rogues need to have unique strengths and unique weaknesses.

Also this. Just restated.

[TheLegendOfAra]

For the longest time I always wanted to make a pure 20 Drow Rogue Assassin, max stealth, high assassinate DC, the works.

I have given up on trying this in the current game for the following reasons:

1. Almost all the high-end endgame content is filled with undead. Most bosses for the current raids being run are undead.
2. Bugged stealth system means making a solo friendly assassin that relies on stealth doesn't work correctly and isn't worth the effort.
3. Assassinate DC is really hard to reach on anything other than a full blown assassin fanatic.

• It would take lives worth of farming for the correct gear.
• It would take at least 6 past lives to get a decent assassinate DC for endgame EE content.

Assassins lose their use in a game where everyone else is a maxed DPS/instakill machine. You're reduced to just a subpar DPS machine who can use instakills occasionally when everyone around is doing those jobs much better than you. Stealth also loses its meaning in a game were you know what is coming 99% of the time. What is the point of stealthing in a party when you KNOW what's coming? When you KNOW where and when the mobs will spawn, how many there will be, and what they will be capable of.

This to me means that this type of Rogue becomes a solo class, which I am personally okay with for a life or two, but it seems an almost toxic idea for a class in an MMO.

All in all, Assassin rogues are delegated to being flavor builds, or solo builds. Which is not bad in and of itself, but in the current game are not the most ideal.

That being said I LOVE Acrobat builds, and mechanics suffer from the same issue every other build that uses Xbows does. They're just not powerful enough at endgame, and they lack the spells/buffs that artis get. But both of these lend themselves to splash builds, and being pure on them is pretty pointless at endgame but is okay for regular pastlives.

[Nightmanis]

Mechanics could use the help in the ammo department (I've never seen one without 2 article) and possibly making their grenades benefit from ranged power when it's implemented. Also make trap making actually useful, then we'll worry about any other benefits share between them and artificer.

Acrobat though, I very seriously doubt anything needs to be done about them. They're a conglomeration of awesome abilities: +15% stacking attack speed with staves, knockdown immunity, glancing blows were fixed on them last I knew, monster crit improvement, and now glancing blows will work while moving? Add the huge amount of sneak damage, and you could get by with a 17 rogue 2 monk 1 cleric build through any and all content. Even without sireth, it's still a great prestige.

Assassins are the problem. That whole tree looks like it should be so promising, and so powerful if you're willing to put in the investment. But with the current sneak problems and insane dc's needed to even be useful it's just killed off so stick. I've got an unarmed rogue build in dread for combat brute+no mercy, and I have no use of anything in assassin unless I decide I desperately want killer. There is no tier 5 worth taking.

[Erofen]

Yes rogues do need some love. That repost for the change to assassin tree looks nice but imo it needs more than that. I even dropped the assassinate enhancement completely to get some more defenses with defensive roll 50% health, because without past lives and uber intelligence the dc just sucks. The fact that bards can assassinate better than assassins annoys me... Who needs clickies and scroll heals/marks when you can be a bard with those buff spells that last longer, built in heals, and a no fail assassinate dc if you put the slightest amount of effort into getting a cha and perform item. Don't get me started on twf while running and it being the only weapon style not getting upgraded. Please devs this needs a revamp.

[rasend]

...It would take at least 6 past lives to get a decent assassinate DC for endgame EE content...

Which past life increases assassinate DC?

[Raoull]

Pure classes, other than (some) caster classes, are simply not ideal. Other than that, Rogues are still quite good. I agree that Assassinate could use some love, and Bards having a way better assassinate than assassins is ludicrous... but that doesn't make Rogues bad.

I play 2 right now.

My 12 Rogue / 6 Ranger / 2 Pal is a survivable DPSer with good utility. Against fleshy stuff, his crit profile (Knife spec) and sneak damage is very good. (It is OK against other things, just not as good.) UMD, Improved Evasion, Furyshot, Adrenaline & Balanced attacks for CC.... I really like him as a melee. But, as a strength based rogue... his trapping skills are not ideal. I have enough gear that they're solid, and he's even OK for most EE stuff, but the top tier EEs such as Haunted Halls give him issues.

For DPS toons, Assassin is a very good tree. You can't compare it to swashbuckler.... since that's just stupidly good, but it is possibly second to that one. Dagger crit range and Killer are exceptional. I haven't played much with barbarians, but Assassin is better as a melee enhancement tree than tempest, kensai, and KotC for sure.


Now I also have an Xbow rogue to replace him. Originally I was going pure rogue to mix assassinate with Xbow (max int Sun Elf build), but I found the Xbow dps was sufficiently good... and assassinate sufficiently unwieldy.... that when I LR'ed out the cleric level I went with a 16/2/2 build with ranger and Artie splashed. Artie gives runarms and summon bolts (although with dennith bolts, it was actually fine, especially with the guild ship merchant), ranger gives some tempest defense and more sneak range, and both free up a feat. Improved Precise shot is awesome with trash, and between Mechanic, Sun Elf core and DWS he has a 35m "point blank" range. At level 25 I'm contemplating playing with the Slaying arrow / Adrenaline combo.... from my testing it is theoretically possible. AP expeditures would be nuts, with a ton wasted in AA since most abilities don't work on bolts.... but for thousands of damage per burst, it seems worth trying.....

I need to start playing with making my own traps though. Reading the wiki it implied that the DCs for anything except the (rather sad) damage ones were horrible, although reading this makes me think that needs testing. As a trapper, max int rogue is incredible. In EH stuff he usually doesn't even need to put on his disable gloves.


It seems to me your worries are just based on the silly boosting of musicians into combat gods. Outside of that tree, Assassins have the best crit mod, the best doublestrike, the best instakill (ok... Quivering Palm is a joke now).... And for that matter, Acrobat is also a very solid tree. Mechanic could use some love, but most classes would love 2 solid trees.