The Balance Change post [Archive] - Page 3 - Dungeons & Dragons Online Forums

patang01

10-14-2015, 01:31 PM

The point is, now you have to choose. I don't see, with these changes, barbs and fighters splashing rogue to use evasion. Even if they do, taht's a hard choice. If you have to think hard about one decision, that means it is balanced. You are saying like the only thing you had to give up to make evasion work was PRR.

Yes, I honestly think these change will not take us to the same level we were before. 15% more magical damage is not going to break any build.

Right now it's just eveyone in heavy armor. After the changes you have to choose. And guess what, most people will stay on heavy armor.

Why was splashing rogue not a choice before? That makes no sense. This is why people either splashed or built for evasion before. Because it was the only reasonable damage mitigation. It's no more harder now than it was back when. That's simply just wishful thinking on your part. I can't think one single thing in this change that make what was before any less 'hard' or easy. Pick what class to splash, build like before. Done.

Yes I am saying that the only change now from prior to armor up is PRR and MRR. Dodge is unchanged. Evasion is unchanged. Difference being that PRR will be more effective now than before making evasion builds slightly better. Seems like a plus right there.

15% more magic damage; well I don't know where the number comes from but assuming thats right is huge for pot healing and cocooning fighters. It means less for barbarians that can still temp heal. The change to blood rage seems minor enough but we'll see. The only problem with barbarians is that they can't heal themselves while raging.

I see that by observation myself. The first to die is usually fighter builds. Even with self healing. Partly because they're the least effective at huge spike damage. You will see a move where some fighters go into full armor tactical mode (few) but most will migrate to melee like Paladin and Barbarian. Provided their self healing works the same. Skipping the armor is no big thing. There are plenty of BTA armor to pick up. Weapons are more of an investment so I doubt we'll see a huge amount of melee go strictly ranged unless they once came from ranged and already have the investment in stuff.

So probably more vanguard fighters, less Pally vanguards and more 2 handed fighting Pally's. Barbarians will most likely be unchanged. I don't know how this will effect Swashbuckers - but possibly a change of weapon of choice.

2 weapon fighting and 2 handed fighting fighters will probably be gone. Or very rare. That's just the nature of toons that were on the brink of self healing before and now will have to soak more damage.

Personally I will drop my tempest for an AA. It takes a lot of damage that is slightly mitigated by evasion and higher DPS. With slightly lower DPS it means taking more damage (fighting longer). Also with change of divine grace less effective use for his 2 Pally levels. That's fine. I got good bows on him so I'll see what AA can do instead. That's an easy choice and I don't have to invest more in stuff. Just a change from strength to dex.

My Fighters will be gone. I'll drop both in favor of one Vanguard. My Pally fighter experiment (Sword and board) gone. It's just too feat starved to worry about trying to be more effective in tactical to offset drop in DPS. I'll keep my Pally 2 handed. He'll still fairly good at self healing eventho he'll take a little bit more damage now.

I keep my barbarian for now. I think he'll be fine. I'll drop one warlock (was just doing it for past life anyways) and go back to Sorc. Sorc is safe. No change to Shiradi casting. The other can remain Warlock altho I will use him less. The more they carve the damage back the less point it makes to have something slow shooting like that. Try using Warlocks against red named in ToEE and it's a pain. You'll fight them for 4 minutes running backwards because the over all crit damage will most likely peel down even more now with these changes.

My Arti will lose some DPS due to bug fix but the problem with it remains the same - no good destiny that can enhance overall runearm and such. If you don't have knives eternal as a rune arm you might as just be there for the buffs. Altho I still like tactical detonation - it works even in EE (not always but good enough).

As I see it I will slim down my heavy armor users more and go more ranged, evasion and arcane. Like before. As much as I love running in circles pot healing I won't go back to that. And yes, 15% is a lot when the best you can get is a cocoon with a cool down.

As a side note. I won't use my Monks. I got 2. They're screwed. Particularly the staff one. That hybrid seems pointless with worse crit profile. Oh well. Maybe after the Monk pass. And I might use my rogues more - Mechanic is still okay and the other, assassin might get some use - altho with the change to knives crit profile it feels like I just wasted my investment there.

Thrudh

10-14-2015, 01:34 PM

Some comments about the fighter feats:

These require fighter levels. They can be taken with fighter bonus feats or regular feats.
We don't expect to rebalance monsters around Fighters with all these feats. Fighters who go all out on tactics are expected to reach 95% chance on most monsters (possibly excluding some rare bosses / raid bosses, who will often be immune to many tactics regardless.)
We don't expect all fighters who want to use tactical feats to take all of these new feats. This is largely why they are not a progression, but rather four distinct feats. Characters with 20 Fighter levels might opt to take just the +8 and that's enough (with other gear, STR, etc.) Characters with fewer Fighter levels won't have access to the best bonuses (as well as fewer feats, of course), so they might struggle to reach the same heights as someone who dedicates more class levels to Fighter.
Similarly, the armor feats can be taken one or some at a time. It's not really an all-or-nothing, and a 20 Fighter might skip the first one or two in favor or other bonuses.

These feats help power up the Fighter class, reward taking more Fighter levels, fit into the theme of "Fighters get more feats!", and help provide some differentiation for builds. It matters a bit more if you want to spend your final 2 levels on Fighter vs. another class, and we don't expect every player to make the same decision. We're happy for Fighter to remain interesting for multiclass builds, while also rewarding purer builds. We feel these eight new feats spread across levels 2-16 helps with many kinds of characters.

This is excellent thinking... As long as you don't balance monster saves with the new feats, this should work perfectly... My barbarian/rogue/fighter is a tactics build, and can stun and trip most stuff now, so I know these feats are not required in today's game... I may take a few more fighter levels for the extra tactics boost, or maybe even go mostly fighter instead of barbarian... because tactics is what I built this guy around. But I don't feel like I'm REQUIRED to take extra fighter levels to build a viable tactics build...

What this will do is allow me to swap some feats for some enhancements/gear, giving me a slightly higher stun and trip DC AND freeing up some enhancement points/gear slots.

PsychoBlonde

10-14-2015, 01:35 PM

Addressing only the double shot proposed change, I think it is a good thing only if going over 100% is actually obtainable without being pigeon holed into running on Divine Crusader. There will be a need for more stacking sources.

See the change to Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars. Both of those will easily boost you over 100% doubleshot when they're active.

FranOhmsford

10-14-2015, 01:36 PM

Right, so because one single quest is hard all heroic content is now hard (despise 99% of all other quests not being so).

No - ToEE is just an example!

Trial of the Archons, Heroic Wheloon, Devil's Gambit, Heroic High Road, Heroic Storm Horns - All are significantly buffed in mob numbers compared to older quests of the same Level!

Are they actually more difficult than those older quests - Some are, some aren't but that has more to do with other things {Coal Chamber and Crucible for instance were never about the Mobs!} - Just comparing the mobs in say Rainbow in the Dark to Friends in Low Places - Heck yeah the second is more difficult {especially the end fight!}.

Running with the Devils has always been an outlier of mob difficulty but the end fight of Friends in Low Places is significantly more difficult than even that!

How about comparing Gianthold Lvl 13s to Demon Assault or The Devils Details from Trials of the Archons? Only Foundation of Discord comes close and that's because of the insanity of the End Fight in said quest!

And IQ2 versus Storm Horns = Lol! IQ2 is a piece of pie next to What Goes Up!

PS: champions are not exclusivity from ToEE

I didn't say any such thing!

I specifically stated
Champions have also been added to every single Elite and Hard Quest in the game! - I also noted that it had taken concerted effort just to get the Devs to remove them from KORTHOS!

hit_fido

10-14-2015, 01:36 PM

If the only thing you change is the 30 MRR you get from heavy armor, it will now become a choice between heavy armor for free and higher PRR, or loose that PRR and inveest, not only class levels, but quite some stats, feats and items to make your evasion work. It is a though decision, and that means it is balanced.

If you were truly looking the bigged picture, you would see that. But you are not, you are only looking for that 30 MRR small picture. In fact, the change in the PRR formula is a much bigger reason for the heavy armor plague we have now than the 30 MRR they gave to it.

Heavy armor is not "for free" for all classes and builds, same as evasion isn't "for free" for all classes and builds. The PRR difference between light and heavy is 24 at full BAB, which if 30 MRR is "small picture" to you, means you are now ironically devaluing heavy armor.

I'm going to wear the best resistance item I can find even if I don't have evasion so that's a non issue. Stats is a non issue too, we're talking what, maybe 3 save difference because I left dex at 8 instead of 14? And if you want to talk feats, the only feat that was ever situationally necessary for high reflexes was insightful, which coincidentally obviates the stat concern for a sizable subsection of builds.

So this all paints no different a picture than there was back when 2 splashes were widely adopted. After the proposed changes, the mitigation choice boils down to +24 PRR and evasion vs +48 PRR. People greatly favored 2 splashes in the past when the mitigation choice was similarly unbalanced in favor of evasion. I think they will again, so I'm suggesting a more incremental approach to toning down heavy/medium armor. You disagree, and that's fine. But you don't need to keep misrepresenting my position.

WNxDaCraw

10-14-2015, 01:39 PM

I have some additional thoughts about this changes.

This is a great opportunity to rework Keen and Impact Ability to be good property rather then meh.

My suggestion is based on assumption, that most if not everyone but casters, take IC feat rather than try find Keen or Impact ability on item. Simple because IC feats are probably the most powerful heroic feats in game, and won't use weapon slot for redundant property (higher levels add some more +x[W] but you know what I mean). Suggestion below need some work to do, but that will bring Keen / Impact property back to live in DDO.

Consider these changes:

Keen / Impact I (+1 Base price modifier) + 0,5 [W]
Keen / Impact II (+3 Base price modifier) + 0,5 [W] and +1 critical threat range for Piercing & Slashing / Bludgeoning weapons AND Stack with IC feat.
Keen / Impact III (+5 Base price modifier) + 1 [W] and +1 critical threat range for Piercing & Slashing / Bludgeoning weapons AND Stack with IC feat.
Keen / Impact IV (+7 Base price modifier) + 1 [W] and +2 critical threat range for Piercing & Slashing / Bludgeoning weapons AND Stack with IC feat.
Keen / Impact V (+9 Base price modifier) + 1,5 [W] and +2 critical threat range for Piercing & Slashing / Bludgeoning weapons AND Stack with IC feat.
ect.

OR:

Keen / Impact I (+1 Base price modifier) + 0,5 [W]
Keen / Impact II (+3 Base price modifier) + 0,5 [W] and +1 critical threat range for Piercing & Slashing / Bludgeoning weapons AND Stack with IC feat.
Keen / Impact III (+5 Base price modifier) + 1,5 [W] and +1 critical threat range for Piercing & Slashing / Bludgeoning weapons AND Stack with IC feat.
Keen / Impact IV (+7 Base price modifier) + 2 [W] and +1 critical threat range for Piercing & Slashing / Bludgeoning weapons AND Stack with IC feat.
Keen / Impact V (+9 Base price modifier) + 2,5 [W] and +1 critical threat range for Piercing & Slashing / Bludgeoning weapons AND Stack with IC feat.
ect.

You should balance Base price modifier of course, but overall that will be a great changes for diversity in game. And without double bonus from IC feat, no OP by any means.

Maybe Keen / Impact weapons, will get some attention from players rather than auto-sell loot.

Sorry to tell you but this is a NERF not a balance update. Its kind of refreshing to see you think they would do something to make you better. You need to play another game if you want that.

Cordovan

10-14-2015, 01:40 PM

Ankiil

10-14-2015, 01:44 PM

My first impresion was hmm ok.
Very powerful builds gets nerfed. Some gets changed a lot.
ohh monchers wont like to change build and playstyle - but it might still be ok (just watch playtesting before implementing it).
A slightly lifted eyebrow No MRR for armor. All using armor of any kind gets weaker. All using weapons get a litle weaker with change to IC.
Then it hit me - changes to IC they are nerfing my soon to be endgame swashbuckler Forest brush hook user. Why you bastards :). My life is ruined I must rage quit.
Heh me too its not just the others. I must rethink my build to make it work, but it is posible. Adapt to the challenge.
I might have to work together with spellcasters to get through alot EE, but that should be part of D&D.
I think and hope it will balance the game but I have to test it.
I hope monsters loose MRR too (take more dammage from as they dont have resistances as far as I can see), then spellcasters might be on level with warlocks and best ranged and melee builds.
,,...,. fill in punctuation as needed :rolleyes:

Ellihor

10-14-2015, 01:45 PM

Why was splashing rogue not a choice before? That makes no sense. This is why people either splashed or built for evasion before. Because it was the only reasonable damage mitigation. It's no more harder now than it was back when. That's simply just wishful thinking on your part. I can't think one single thing in this change that make what was before any less 'hard' or easy. Pick what class to splash, build like before. Done.

Nope. As I said in another post, people didn't use heavy armor because the PRR formula was different. PRR and shadow guardian are the main reasons people use heavy armor, not MRR.

Yes I am saying that the only change now from prior to armor up is PRR and MRR. Dodge is unchanged. Evasion is unchanged. Difference being that PRR will be more effective now than before making evasion builds slightly better. Seems like a plus right there.

The previous PRR formula was extremly rewarding low hanging fruit. After they changed it, people started building higher PRR.

15% more magic damage; well I don't know where the number comes from but assuming thats right is huge for pot healing and cocooning fighters. It means less for barbarians that can still temp heal. The change to blood rage seems minor enough but we'll see. The only problem with barbarians is that they can't heal themselves while raging.

I just did simple math from 60 MRR to 30 MRR (that's about my barb values). So, do you think all these figthers and barbs are going to splash rogue and use light amor because of these 15% magical damage? Hhhmmmm, hard to choose, isn't it? That's the point: balance. As things are right now on live it's no brainer go heavy armor.

Ellihor

10-14-2015, 01:51 PM

Heavy armor is not "for free" for all classes and builds, same as evasion isn't "for free" for all classes and builds. The PRR difference between light and heavy is 24 at full BAB, which if 30 MRR is "small picture" to you, means you are now ironically devaluing heavy armor.

We are finally agreeing! So what will happen is: classes that have evasion will be in light, classes that don't will be on the most heavy armor they can use. Or they splash for evasion but I don't see that happening because you will not be able to make it work. Doesn't it sound all right to you? I mean, instead of everyone going for heavy?

I'm going to wear the best resistance item I can find even if I don't have evasion so that's a non issue. Stats is a non issue too, we're talking what, maybe 3 save difference because I left dex at 8 instead of 14? And if you want to talk feats, the only feat that was ever situationally necessary for high reflexes was insightful, which coincidentally obviates the stat concern for a sizable subsection of builds.

Ok, tell me how to build a 18 fighter or barb / 2 evasion and get mid 80s reflex. Because I don't know how to, without gimping my DPS. Breakdown please.

So this all paints no different a picture than there was back when 2 splashes were widely adopted. After the proposed changes, the mitigation choice boils down to +24 PRR and evasion vs +48 PRR. People greatly favored 2 splashes in the past when the mitigation choice was similarly unbalanced in favor of evasion. I think they will again, so I'm suggesting a more incremental approach to toning down heavy/medium armor. You disagree, and that's fine. But you don't need to keep misrepresenting my position.

Correction: choice boils down to +24 PRR, evasion and **** DPS vs +48 PRR and great DPS

Thrudh

10-14-2015, 01:54 PM

I just did simple math from 60 MRR to 30 MRR (that's about my barb values). So, do you think all these figthers and barbs are going to splash rogue and use light amor because of these 15% magical damage? Hhhmmmm, hard to choose, isn't it? That's the point: balance.

Exactly... Tough choices mean the devs are doing it right... I have a light armor evasion guy, and a heavy armor PRR/MRR guy. The builds are very different.

There's a lot more to making evasion work for a fighter or a barb than just splashing rogue. Without an excellent reflex save, evasion is worthless.

Correction: choice boils down to +24 PRR, evasion and less DPS vs +48 PRR and more DPS

This.

Kriogen

10-14-2015, 02:01 PM

...
Correction: choice boils down to +24 PRR, evasion and **** DPS vs +48 PRR and great DPS
No. First you have to be alive. Its the reason why there were so many evasion builds before Armor Up.

merkovah

10-14-2015, 02:02 PM

Manyshot
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 20 seconds you add your (base attack bonus * 4) to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. This ability puts Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 2 minutes.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

Ten Thousand Stars
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 30 seconds you add your Wisdom ability score to your Ranged Power and you add your monk level * 5 to your Doubleshot. This ability puts Manyshot on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 1 minute.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

...................... This is a horrible change to 10k stars.

As in, REALLY BAD and VERY POORLY THOUGHTOUT. You people have skills and intelligence, DO BETTER.

It makes monk splashes TOTALLY worthless. IS THAT YOUR GOAL? TO MAKE EVERYONE A RANGER ARCHER?

As it works now, its really easy to have a second arrow ... 24 wisdom is reasonable. And it takes work to reach a third, 42 wisdom for epics is alright. And makes sense for monks.

HOWEVER .... Taking 6 monk levels to be able to shoot ONE EXTRA ARROW is ALREADY a massive cost.

Shooting one extra arrow with some more DPS, and have a +30% doubleshot for monk 6 splashes makes this skill and monk splashes totally worthless.

There is no way to get the extra arrow during heroics.

And there is where longbows are already beyond worthless.

Longbows ALREADY are way subpar to crossbows, they are slower and do less damage.

And you want to make them worse while saying you are making it better. Where's the integrity ? You aren't making it better ... stop telling us you are.

Please give some explanation for these changes and restore our faith in your capability as developers.

---

For the record, my ranged arcane archer is my favorite character ... and the only reason I play DDO.
It has been years of effort to become semi-functional in the game ; if this character becomes worthless, I simply will lose the desire to play and simply won't invest any more time.

It would just be disheartening after so much time and effort.

And I am looking forward to some of the changes and going through the game with another heroic life ; changes aren't an issue.

Bad changes are ; and the lack of listening to the community demonstrated by the developers in regards to some of these changes.

Some of the changes are real bad ; and rather than just brushing off our comments as the expected belly-aching ... TAKE THE TIME TO LISTEN TO AND RESPECT THE PLAYER BASE.

SO SPEAKING FOR ALL OF US WHO HAVE PAID FOR THIS GAME WITH OUR TIME AND DEVOTION AND MONEY AND LIVES ... BE VERY VERY VERY CONSCIOUS AND LOOK AFTER YOUR PLAYER BASE.

I am for balancing the game out ; don't make it stone-age useless and regress the game to its underpowered dysfunction of four and five years ago with only 3 or 4 effective builds.

Balance the game so we enjoy it.

As it stands, arcane archers already are nowhere near your 'swashbuckler' benchmark in terms of DPS ; and your proposed changes are only going to make it worse.

KevinMullins

10-14-2015, 02:04 PM

hit_fido

10-14-2015, 02:04 PM

We are finally agreeing! So what will happen is: classes that have evasion will be in light, classes that don't will be on the most heavy armor they can use. Or they splash for evasion but I don't see that happening because you will not be able to make it work. Doesn't it sound all right to you? I mean, instead of everyone going for heavy?

If by agreeing you mean we both think losing 24-30 PRR and MRR will not make the game unplayable for anyone, yes. But though you keep wanting to make this just about +/- 30 MRR, that's missing the point, again.

Ok, tell me how to build a 18 fighter or barb / 2 evasion and get mid 80s reflex. Because I don't know how to, without gimping my DPS. Breakdown please.

Correction: choice boils down to +24 PRR, evasion and **** DPS vs +48 PRR and great DPS

You're the one who introduced the claim that DPS would be (what? excrement?) in order to have evasion. So you need to make the first move to actually support your position on that. But again, if you're trying to imply I don't see a trade off for taking evasion, you are not correct. But it's a similar trade off as there was when we saw predominance of evasion based builds. Most players were willing to trade off some DPS for evasion. I believe most players (not all; not you) will be again.

hit_fido

10-14-2015, 02:10 PM

No. First you have to be alive. Its the reason why there were so many evasion builds before Armor Up.

Players made a conscious decision back then that the damage mitigation outweighed so called "full ****** dps".

Really, Turbine? Ok. "Full mentally differently-abled DPS"

Ellihor

10-14-2015, 02:18 PM

If by agreeing you mean we both think losing 24-30 PRR and MRR will not make the game unplayable for anyone, yes. But though you keep wanting to make this just about +/- 30 MRR, that's missing the point, again.

Sorry, I didn't understood this

You're the one who introduced the claim that DPS would be (what? excrement?) in order to have evasion. So you need to make the first move to actually support your position on that. But again, if you're trying to imply I don't see a trade off for taking evasion, you are not correct. But it's a similar trade off as there was when we saw predominance of evasion based builds. Most players were willing to trade off some DPS for evasion. I believe most players (not all; not you) will be again.

Ok, lets start with the capstone alone. On a paladin. 10 mlee power to start with, and 2d6 light damage. On a barb: eye of the storm. On a fihter: 15% doublestrike. All these you also loose 2 points in stat. Now you still have to get that save. How do you build reflex on a fighter or bar? There's just no way, unless if you stop being a fighter or barb. You could also be dex based or int based and gimp you DPS by using inferior weapons. That's the point. It's just not doable. People will hold theyr heavy armors.

merkovah

10-14-2015, 02:19 PM

Well since these changes are going to happen a couple things need to take place in my opinion:

1. +20 heart of wood for every character
2. Remove champions , because these thread admits it failed to do what it set out to do make the game harder. ( at least give an option out button for champions )
3. A way to deconstruct thunderforge weapons and armor to get back ingredients ( to re-craft with ).
4. You need to add a lot of new players to game or merge servers to compensate for loss of players due to changes.

Agreed. All of this.

Positive changes will increase player base.

Raithz

10-14-2015, 02:20 PM

So unfortunately the Two Weapon fighting chain have been Nerfed since it will no longer give melee power , also Possibly if it is a balance issue perhaps you could consider checking how much dmg/dps the barbarian do since it enhancement trees and two handed fighting chain also seem way too powerful also if for some reasons you believe two weapon fighting is too power maybe since ranger using two weapon fighting is more powerful now since update 28 then I think that would be more a specific ranger issue then a ambiguous two weapon fighting issue. but two weapon fighting also affect rogue , fighter , paladin if you choose the path of two weapon fighting and especially monk who uses hands-wraps , and any melee that use two weapon fighting. since it now seems that the two handed fighter bulid are more powerful and they seem to do more dps then the two weapon fighter bulid . and also two handed fighting also seem considerable way too powerful and especially for barbarian.

UurlockYgmeov

10-14-2015, 02:21 PM

OOH!!!

Cleric Domains? Yes Please!

original holy sword created a physical sword - not a bow. :P

Seikojin

10-14-2015, 02:22 PM

Manyshot
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 20 seconds you add your (base attack bonus * 4) to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. This ability puts Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 2 minutes.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

Ten Thousand Stars
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 30 seconds you add your Wisdom ability score to your Ranged Power and you add your monk level * 5 to your Doubleshot. This ability puts Manyshot on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 1 minute.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

...................... This is a horrible change to 10k stars.

As in, REALLY BAD and VERY POORLY THOUGHTOUT. You people have skills and intelligence, DO BETTER.

It makes monk splashes TOTALLY worthless. IS THAT YOUR GOAL? TO MAKE EVERYONE A RANGER ARCHER?

As it works now, its really easy to have a second arrow ... 24 wisdom is reasonable. And it takes work to reach a third, 42 wisdom for epics is alright. And makes sense for monks.

HOWEVER .... Taking 6 monk levels to be able to shoot ONE EXTRA ARROW is ALREADY a massive cost.

Shooting one extra arrow with some more DPS, and have a +30% doubleshot for monk 6 splashes makes this skill and monk splashes totally worthless.

There is no way to get the extra arrow during heroics.

And there is where longbows are already beyond worthless.

Longbows ALREADY are way subpar to crossbows, they are slower and do less damage.

And you want to make them worse while saying you are making it better. Where's the integrity ? You aren't making it better ... stop telling us you are.

Please give some explanation for these changes and restore our faith in your capability as developers.

---

For the record, my ranged arcane archer is my favorite character ... and the only reason I play DDO.
It has been years of effort to become semi-functional in the game ; if this character becomes worthless, I simply will lose the desire to play and simply won't invest any more time.

It would just be disheartening after so much time and effort.

SO SPEAKING FOR ALL OF US WHO HAVE PAID FOR THIS GAME WITH OUR TIME AND DEVOTION AND MONEY AND LIVES ... BE VERY VERY VERY CONSCIOUS AND LOOK AFTER YOUR PLAYER BASE.

I am for balancing the game out ; don't make it stone-age useless and regress the game to its underpowered dysfunction of four and five years ago with only 3 or 4 effective builds.

Balance the game so we enjoy it.

As it stands, arcane archers already are nowhere near your 'swashbuckler' benchmark in terms of DPS ; and your proposed changes are only going to make it worse.

Huh? IIRC the MS/10k change is about lag and perf, not balance. The balancing act in it is allowing doubleshot to wrap (with or without MS or 10K), and increasing ranged power while in MS or 10k.

This just means that people will roll their main destiny as DC so they can have 3 doubleshot boosts running.

Ellihor

10-14-2015, 02:22 PM

No. First you have to be alive. Its the reason why there were so many evasion builds before Armor Up.

Yes, and MAAANY things changed since armors up, not only 30 MRR from heavy armor. I did a number of posts about that, I don't feel like explaining this again for everyone who brings this point.

Buddha5440

10-14-2015, 02:22 PM

SO SPEAKING FOR ALL OF US WHO HAVE PAID FOR THIS GAME WITH OUR TIME AND DEVOTION AND MONEY AND LIVES ... BE VERY VERY VERY CONSCIOUS AND LOOK AFTER YOUR PLAYER BASE.

You DO NOT speak for ALL OF US so please don't claim to.

Spoonwelder

10-14-2015, 02:24 PM

Mirta

10-14-2015, 02:27 PM

I'll play what I want to play regardless of these kinds of updates.

Yes, that is part of what I was trying to say. I am going to play what I like to play. I like playing a barb not because of the damage or self healing, but because it is fun while still being useful. I play this game to have fun. It is a game, after all. I don't have the effort in me any more after a hard day's work to come home and play a fighter and have to manage a bunch of different boosts, abilities, tactical attacks, etc. Micromanaging a gimpy toon isn't fun to me. I like a barb because I rage and kill. The worst part of it is having to keep refreshing my frenzies every 40-50 seconds. That, and all those fighter tactics are pointless in raids because everything is either immune or already dead by the time I get to it. If I had ANY chance to use these skills successfully on red/purple named then I might reconsider putting the effort into playing a class like fighter, but for now they are too much effort for no reward.

The same can be said about warlocks. They're easy to play while still being useful in endgame.

Edit: To clarify: I'm not saying simplify the game. I like planning and managing my builds and inventory between quests, but if I have to put in a ton of effort while questing at least make it worthwhile.

Lonnbeimnech

10-14-2015, 02:28 PM

Sorry, I didn't understood this

Ok, lets start with the capstone alone. On a paladin. 10 mlee power to start with, and 2d6 light damage. On a barb: eye of the storm. On a fihter: 15% doublestrike. All these you also loose 2 points in stat. Now you still have to get that save. How do you build reflex on a fighter or bar? There's just no way, unless if you stop being a fighter or barb. You could also be dex based or int based and gimp you DPS by using inferior weapons. That's the point. It's just not doable. People will hold theyr heavy armors.

Plus if you are going fighter or pally anyways you can put a few points into the defender tree and get another 25 prr and mrr out of that heavy armor.

FranOhmsford

10-14-2015, 02:28 PM

I did want to let folks know that Severlin joined me on the livestream today to take Q&A on this for about a half hour. You can find the archive on Twitch (http://www.twitch.tv/ddostream/v/20672476) or YouTube (https://youtu.be/CzHJg8KiVJU).

Can someone please tell Sev that Tieflings in DDO don't have tails.

Tieflings in DDO also tend to have quite small Horns that can simply be hidden by the Helms/Hats we wear {If a player wants to see his/her horns they can show helmet off or show goggles on.

DDO is not Neverwinter - We don't need Tieflings who look like they've stepped straight out of SW:TOR!

Heck I'm against Tiefling PCs full stop but if you're going to insist on putting them into the game as PCs they should look like the Tieflings we already have in game!

P.S. Neither Tiefling nor Aasimar are in any way Core Player Races!
Kobolds, Hobgoblins, Orcs, Gnolls and for Eberron Kalashtar should all be ahead of those two!

merkovah

10-14-2015, 02:28 PM

You DO NOT speak for ALL OF US so please don't claim to.

Oh snap, aren't you witty. Have another one?

Yendor_the_pokermage

10-14-2015, 02:30 PM

Like normal people are over reacting to the changes.

frankly I'm all for everything in this pass, infact Kyo is currently a Dex Build Pure ranger in Deepwood/Dreadnaught and just from looking at the changes to Manyshot I'm getting a huge dps increase, solely for the fact that I don't Manyshot as often as most players and now ill be able to pop it constantly when its off timer.

there was a post where someone said ranged power was capped but top end in archers focus I cap out at 234 ranged power and now ill be able to manyshot without dblshot penalty woot!!

MRR should never been on armour anyway, unless that specific armour gave you it.

Divine Grace need this badly. I know to many players who think 2pally splash is more important then their main class. Which should never be the case.

I cant wait for the Monk pass which really needs to be looked at....Please make the monk stances like Sorc paths. you Pick your Path and each path gets the same amount of respect.

and finally I'm so disappointed that you havnt looked at Turn Undead and updating it to fit in with the higher lvl cap and CR mobs, This needs to be done ASAP

Chaoscheerio

10-14-2015, 02:31 PM

I'm starting to see some of the points made here.
The more I discuss it with guildies the more I realize that MRR is a problem.

My current build(13 Druid/4Ranger/3Fighter) is hitting 115 PRR and 78 MRR in light armour+ large shield with 2 warlock and PDK past lives at level 22 in Dreadnought.
I can see how that's an issue now.

I'm sorry if I came off as aggressive. I do tend to overreact. My one issue now is that, what about people that don't splash fighter or paladin? How will they be able to survive EEs? Stalwart/Sacred stance is STILL incredibly powerful, and that's the main issue I have. It's too strong for too minimal investment. These changes do nothing to balance that.

Mryal

10-14-2015, 02:42 PM

Here's part of what makes heavy armour so incredible that people seem to be totally overlooking.

Stalwart/Sacred Defender stances. They're incredibly accessible, require minimal splashing, and gives MASSIVE benefits. For 3 fighter/paladin levels and 13 AP you get +20% HP, +25PRR/MRR, and +3 to all saves.

Want to make MRR less of an issue? Balance this insanity first.

This.
The removal of MRR on armors isnt actualy doing anything.I was against the implementation of MRR, since it, for me at least ,is obviously way better than using evasion wich is a either you have enough or its useless system.Im all for toning it down, but doing it this way is wrong.
It should be tonned down on the paladin stances, at least for non shield users.I do not see how any of those changes will make people go away from Paladin its actualy going to make them go torwards paladin with the lower defenses on other classes.
On paladin you get the best saves, heavy armor stances for the best mrr/prr.
On top of that,you also get great dps trought holy sword wich for some stupid reason is NOT getting ANY nerf if youre not actualy using an off hand object or wep to do damage! THF/SWF paladin will use holy sword with 100% effectiveness as it is today while other weapon styles will not.How does this makes any sense ?

Ellihor

10-14-2015, 02:44 PM

Plus if you are going fighter or pally anyways you can put a few points into the defender tree and get another 25 prr and mrr out of that heavy armor.

Not to mention 20% hp and 6 str...

UurlockYgmeov

10-14-2015, 02:49 PM

Can someone please tell Sev that Tieflings in DDO don't have tails.

Tieflings in DDO also tend to have quite small Horns that can simply be hidden by the Helms/Hats we wear {If a player wants to see his/her horns they can show helmet off or show goggles on.

DDO is not Neverwinter - We don't need Tieflings who look like they've stepped straight out of SW:TOR!

Heck I'm against Tiefling PCs full stop but if you're going to insist on putting them into the game as PCs they should look like the Tieflings we already have in game!

P.S. Neither Tiefling nor Aasimar are in any way Core Player Races!
Kobolds, Hobgoblins, Orcs, Gnolls and for Eberron Kalashtar should all be ahead of those two!

Tails would be cool..... but I'd live without one. :P (Ebberon Tiefling's don't have tails... call it a lore thing)

I can understand why Tieflings over other races because it is much more sell-able.

Let the Gnomemaggon begin!

:)

sjbb87

10-14-2015, 02:53 PM

Here are our current goals and design challenges:

[LIST]
Two Weapon Fighting builds are dealing too much DPS. This is generally because on-hit effects now scale with melee power, and we've relaxed many internal cooldown limits on to-hit effects. We expected Two Weapon Fighting builds to scale quickly when we changed on-hit effects, and balanced the fighting style feats to compensate, but that was a world before Assassin and Tempest were updated, and players largely equated Two Weapon Fighting to those trees. Now that those are updated we can look at re-adjusting the two weapon fighting feats.

Sev~

please explain me in detail what you guys are planning here.
For I will not be caught off guard with my builds it took me several years to construct by

edit:
ps: Tempest and assassin are Glass cannon....They need do more dps than others classes

Cleanincubus

10-14-2015, 02:53 PM

I did want to let folks know that Severlin joined me on the livestream today to take Q&A on this for about a half hour. You can find the archive on Twitch (http://www.twitch.tv/ddostream/v/20672476) or YouTube (https://youtu.be/CzHJg8KiVJU).

Off topic here, but related to the Stream...

The comments/questions about Hide armor is that there is no random loot Hide armor in the game anymore. There are only a few old quest chains that drop +1 enhanced BtA versions as quest rewards. Same goes for Padded armor and Studded Leather armor as well.

patang01

10-14-2015, 02:54 PM

Nope. As I said in another post, people didn't use heavy armor because the PRR formula was different. PRR and shadow guardian are the main reasons people use heavy armor, not MRR.

The previous PRR formula was extremly rewarding low hanging fruit. After they changed it, people started building higher PRR.

I just did simple math from 60 MRR to 30 MRR (that's about my barb values). So, do you think all these figthers and barbs are going to splash rogue and use light amor because of these 15% magical damage? Hhhmmmm, hard to choose, isn't it? That's the point: balance. As things are right now on live it's no brainer go heavy armor.

I don't think 'all those fighters and barbs' are going to splash rogue. I think people will move away from heavy armor and look at other type of builds like they did before. You fail to see the reason why heavy armor was adopted - not because of PRR formula - because damage mitigation made self healing possible. Barbs are okay now because of self healing. Without it there wouldn't be as many because no one wants to soak heal DPS. Period. You'll see a drift away from melee. Not just melee and evasion because prior to these changes few were melee and evasion. Most were ranged and evasion. Because range means less chance to take damage from physical attacks and evasion from magical.

I see fighters die today. Lots of HP, blue bar. The pittance of self healing only works with proper mitigation and substantial heal amp. It works nicely on barbarians that can self heal through most damage. But almost without fail in the groups I join the fighter will die on EE. Lack of damage mitigation and self healing. Sure, if there's a healbot nearby, most likely not. Change damage mitigation and the issue of self healing gets worse. It's not brain surgery, it's math.

And that's why swashbuckler will still be viable. They've found the formula of self healing, damage mitigation (evasion, displacement etc) and still will do ample damage. After this change I see ranger going ranged, barb remain favorite melee and swashbuckler adopting. I see fighter going special with sword and board tactical. They'll have to deal with less DPS but maybe there will be some changes to tactical feats that makes them even more useful. One can hope. I'm sure vanguard will stick around.

It will most like spell the end to tank builds. I don't see how they can bridge damage mitigation and loss of DPS (heavy investments in feat).

The truth is that the changes to MRR and PRR would've been better suited for a all class type of tree like Harper. A tree that instead added different tactical improvements, MRR and PRR improvements and allowed people to make truly hard choices on an enhancement level. Since like with Harper it's something anyone can buy into no matter class it would come with less restrictions. Choices like making improved trips into sweeps, stunning blow being stunning cleave etc. So now your investment gets tougher and fairer and if you want damage mitigation it's still possible through balanced choices.

UurlockYgmeov

10-14-2015, 02:54 PM

Off topic here, but related to the Stream...

The comments/questions about Hide armor is that there is no random loot Hide armor in the game anymore. There are only a few old quest chains that drop +1 enhanced BtA versions as quest rewards. Same goes for Padded armor and Studded Leather armor as well.

one would hope that during the cannith crafted / random loot pass would update and include these things.

Topic thread started here:
For Cannith Crafting / Random Loot Update Pass (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/466476-For-Cannith-Crafting-Random-Loot-Update-Pass)

WNxDaCraw

10-14-2015, 02:58 PM

Mryal

10-14-2015, 02:59 PM

I see fighter going special with sword and board tactical. They'll have to deal with less DPS but maybe there will be some changes to tactical feats that makes them even more useful. One can hope.

Indeed.Its great that turbine is trying to make tactics more viable, theres more to be done thought.I really think there should be ways to use tactical feats on red nameds.Peraphs an improve on Sunder would be interesting.

hit_fido

10-14-2015, 03:00 PM

Plus if you are going fighter or pally anyways you can put a few points into the defender tree and get another 25 prr and mrr out of that heavy armor.

If you're suggesting you need to splash fighter or paladin in order to make heavy armor more equitable with light + evasion then that isn't helping the argument that heavy armor mitigation needs reduced.

patang01

10-14-2015, 03:14 PM

Indeed.Its great that turbine is trying to make tactics more viable, theres more to be done thought.I really think there should be ways to use tactical feats on red nameds.Peraphs an improve on Sunder would be interesting.

I'd like to see more additions to tactical feats. When cleave and greater cleave is more efficient than to drop one of a mob of 10 any additional DC to tactical feats seems pointless. Making trips sweep and stun more than one would be a start. That would add a niche and a reason to invest. And some way to effect red named. Maybe not stun but daze where damage goes up with 15% if it lands. That would make me keep a fighter.

Axeyu

10-14-2015, 03:22 PM

While you are making drastic balance changes, please also make all Action Boosts share cooldown. Stacking of boosts creates multiplicative effects that can quite easily get out of hand.
It would be more fair if they all shared cooldown even if they are from different sources, atleast the offensive ones.

Assassination

10-14-2015, 03:24 PM

archerforever

10-14-2015, 03:29 PM

Well since these changes are going to happen a couple things need to take place in my opinion:

1. +20 heart of wood for every character

Yes. Multiclassing Monkchers builds will be totally broken so yes.

2. Remove champions , because these thread admits it failed to do what it set out to do make the game harder. ( at least give an option out button for champions )

Dont remove champions, add the option for champions yes/no and add something 100% champions if you want to have fun and challenge, or farm remnants

3. A way to deconstruct thunderforge weapons and armor to get back ingredients ( to re-craft with ).

Yes !!! I have 2 TF shuriken and 1 TF longbow. As it s going with the massive nerf of all multiclassing monkchers builds and awesome nerf of manyshot/10k star, just have to destroy theses useless weapons and go for only great crossbows and repeaters (best ranged weapons in the game after all !!!)

4. You need to add a lot of new players to game or merge servers to compensate for loss of players due to changes.

I ll try to do a viable AA with the new patch, because i really like the new AA enhancements, BUT the manyshot/10k star "rework" (to not say ultra mega nerf) looks like to force peoples to have at least 12 monks lvl or more, or to get the capstone as ranger.It s the end of the 6 monk 6 ranger 8 fighter or rogue or artificer or whatever you want. I ll really try cause i love this game, i love my character, i love AA.... but If it s horrible and I see that they destroyed 4 years of work to get TF bow, shuriken, epic outfit, epic bows ect... i ll just leave the game for sure.

Lonnbeimnech

10-14-2015, 03:37 PM

Off topic here, but related to the Stream...

The comments/questions about Hide armor is that there is no random loot Hide armor in the game anymore. There are only a few old quest chains that drop +1 enhanced BtA versions as quest rewards. Same goes for Padded armor and Studded Leather armor as well.

You can still buy plain ol' hide armor in the harbor (hammer and chain), and then cannith craft it. But yeah it would be nice if they were added back to the loot tables.

archerforever

10-14-2015, 03:38 PM

Spoonwelder

10-14-2015, 03:40 PM

Quick review of all of these for unintended consequenses

Holy Sword (Paladin)
This is now a spell that affects the paladin and buffs whatever melee weapon is being wielded in the main hand.
It no longer persists on your weapon but instead buffs the melee weapon you are holding in your main hand. (Yes, this buffs your two handed weapons.)
It no longer affects missile weapons.
It no longer can be used to buff off hand weapons or shields.
If you change weapons the spell will drop off the unequipped weapon and instead be applied to the newly equipped weapon.

Reduced build diversity in Ranged Pally's
Reduced effectiveness of S&B Builds which had just made a comeback with the Pally pass and armor up
Passive buff to SWF and THF vs other forms.

Blood Strength (Barbarian Ravager)
The portion of this enhancement that heals the user when they kill an opponent now has a 1 second internal cooldown.

Reduces effectiveness of Visage of Terror as a heal methodology for a niche ConBarb build
Small hit to THF barbs cleave spamming vs. TWF single target speed killers

Critical Rage (Barbarian Ravager)
The bonus to critical threat range is now a competence bonus.

none that I can think of

Two weapon fighting animations have been fixed so there is no longer a weird jump on the fourth animation. This has made the fourth attack slightly quicker.

Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Improved Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Greater Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.

Reduces effectiveness of what is still, even with buffs, a gimped fighting style due to hit box issues
Passive buff to SWF and THF

Doubleshot values over 100% now have a chance of producing a third attack. The chance is equal to the amount the value exceeds 100. A doubleshot value of 130, for example, would always produce one extra shot and have a 30% chance to produce a third shot.

(Doublestrike will still cap at 100 for technical reasons.)

see notes in manyshot area as those changes and a few Epic moments are all that can create ?100% DS

Repeating Crossbows and Doubleshot
Fixed a bug where Doubleshot was not being reduced for repeating crossbows. (Doubleshot chance is divided by 3 for repeating crossbows.)

Repeaters - pretty much already relegated to the discount bin since the Great XBow Mechanic pass are now in the 'Free' bin out on the street corner

Manyshot
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 20 seconds you add your (base attack bonus * 4) to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. This ability puts Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 2 minutes.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

Overall increase in DPS for Ranged manyshot users with any moderate investment in DS%

Ten Thousand Stars
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 30 seconds you add your Wisdom ability score to your Ranged Power and you add your monk level * 5 to your Doubleshot. This ability puts Manyshot on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 1 minute.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

12/6/2 MonkRangers get a DPS increase - 6/12/2 Monk/Ranger/x get a minor dps decrease (based on 42 Wis needed to get 3 shots) whereas a 35Wis monk is vastly better off. Woohoo for oafish monks - zenwhut?
Rolling Manyshot-offfor30-TenK-off for 30-off for 10more-Manyshot still exceptionally easy and in most builds will be a DPS increase

Mechanical Reloader (Rogue Mechanic)
The alacrity for non-repeating crossbows is now 30%. (Was 40%)

Mechs cry while leading the killcount be 2-3 less kills

Pulverizer (Legendary Dreadnought)
The bonus to critical threat range for bludgeoning weapons is now an Insight bonus.

Wee MaulRagers do even more damage
Sireth users seeth in the corner then seeth more when they see the IC changes
New players that never got a box or can never find the CITW raid running rejoice at not having to run CITW to get a Sireth

Improved Critical
These feats now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

Keen
This loot effect now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

Makes all those unique named weapons with enhanced crit ranges less tasty - makes all those with expanded crit multipliers much tastier
TF weapons still pretty much king of the heap
One wonders how this interacts with the Swash crit range/threat boosts

Armor Changes
The amount of Physical Resist Rating that armor provides has been changed.
* Heavy armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 2) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Medium armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1.5) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Light Armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
Fixed a bug where players were getting Physical Resist Rating for armor with which they were not proficient.

(Note: The Physical Resist Rating and Magical Resist Rating offered by shields remain unchanged.)

As a result of dialing back armor, some fighter only feats that will boost their effectiveness with armor and add to tactical DCs will also be included.

Paladins and Stalwart fighters virtually unaffected as the % differential for them will be relatively minor for both MRR and PRR
Clerics (and Heavy Arrmored other builds) take a hit.....poor clerics...nobody loves the cleric and he just wants you to bask in his aura.
Anyone not in heavy armor takes a hit in what was already a fairly hard bonus to boost too high without heavy armor......except those oddball mountain monks that nooooobody ever played before.

Tactical Training
Requires Fighter Level 4
You gain +2 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 8
You gain +4 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Mastery
Requires Fighter Level 12
You gain +6 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Supremacy
Requires Fighter Level 16
You gain +8 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Notes: All tactical feats stack for a total of +20. The lower level feats are not prerequisites for the higher level feats so a higher level fighter could save a feat if he/she wanted to skip Tactical Training and forego the +2 but still have access to Tatical Supremacy.

Heavy Armor Training
Requires Fighter Level 2
You gain +3 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 6
You gain +6 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Master
Requires Fighter Level 10
You gain +9 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Champion
Requires Fighter Level 14
You gain +12 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Notes: All Heavy Armor feats stack for a total of +30. The lower level feats are not prerequisites for the higher level feats so a higher level fighter could save a feat if he/she wanted to skip Heavy Armor Training and forego the +3 and still have access to Heavy Armor Champion.

Yay more feats for fighters to dither over then ignore in exchange for DPS increases
Boo more feats other people can't take since they don't have the space and with shallow fighter dips the benefit would be nominal
Current endgame raid totally unaffected by tactics changes (no cowbells allowed - sign says so on the door as you come in)

Divine Grace (Paladin)
Divine Grace now provides a maximum bonus equal to 2 + (Paladin level x 3).

8pt bonus to saves from 2 pally splash means you can get max benefit with 9 Cha (9+2ship+5tome+10item) woohoo to saving initial stat points for allocating to Con
Builds totally unaffected include all the 14Pally splashes that the Devs seem so worried about.

Eldritch Blast and other enhancements (Warlock)
The spellpower scaling for Eldritch Blast and several enhancements has been reduced.

Spellpower scaling of Warlock Abilities

Ability
Old
New

Eldritch Blast
150%
130%

Eldritch Blast Cone
130%
130%

Eldritch Blast Chain
110%
95%

Eldritch Blast Aura
150%
130%

Stricken (Souleater)
150%
125%

Consume (Souleater)
150%
125%

Eldritch Burst (Enlightened Spirit)
120%
100%

Spirit Blast (Enlightened Spirit)
120%
100%

I will be following up this post with some details on our thoughts on balance and design.

Sev~

Warlocks are the current kings of clearing trash but have relatively much harder time with the huge HP bags that are bosses (AKA the only things to worry about in the game as the trash dies easy for everyone) - now the one thing they have trouble with is much harder while the thing they are good at is moderately weaker. (I would suggest toning all but stricken and consume to only 100% and leave those two at the 150% range as they are the key factors in getting bosses down faster and even then it takes alot of AP in Souleater to get good numbers for them)
Warlock builds continue to dominate casters in current endgame until DC casting gets a revamp (Shiradi sorcs are still fine but people got bored of spamming MMs for 2 years)

I am sure there are more unintended consequences but this is the low hanging fruit.

Devs you do know that there will just be a new flavor of the month that becomes the dominant class....right now I am looking at the return of the CenteredKensai and Monkcher type builds as the lead contenders based upon the above changes.

Pally, Barb, Bard, Warlock, Rogues and Rangers will still be strong contenders (ie. all the revamped classes) but the untouched classes will actually be hurt most by the above (Cleric, FVS, Druid and Arti) and will still be way back on the DPS tree.

p4ined_one

10-14-2015, 03:44 PM

ok... so, this "balance" is seriously meant to display functional logic?

-Armor Changes...
"...and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating."

"Armored characters were well behind Evasion builds."

"There was no good way to give characters an incremental increase in magic damage mitigation. Saving throws offer binary protection (you either make your Saving Throw or you don't), and are subject to bad luck."

"Basic armor offers too much mitigation for its cost. While we are happy that armored characters are relevant again, we want to cut back on it a bit."

So... you suggest that your attempt to make non-evasion characters matter was unsuccessful, and now evasion is the only way to get past magical effects again?

So much for any heavy armored toon that isn't a fighter and therefore can't afford the feats to get effective MRR back. So much for my arti, and all the blasted magical traps that he ALREADY doesn't have the evasion for. I guess taking heavy armor proficiency is useless, and I'll just have to TR him into a rogue so he can survive traps... or carry a shield? So artificers aren't meant to be survivable in ranged form?

the point-> sounds like evasion is absolutely necessary to replace MRR once you get done.

-Balance...
"Game and class balance is an ongoing process. Our goal is to have a more balanced game, but we understand this is a refining process that involves continual re-evaluation. That means if your favorite class is slightly behind (or in front) after a pass, we are fully capable and willing to tweak more. We expect designs will be fine-tuned based on player testing and observations."

Are you actually thinking about how this is weeks to month's of people's time before you get back around to "balancing" something? Do you even care that melee is not the only measure of successful gaming? Or that it is difficult enough to manage melee in 20+ due to the extra hard hitting enemies?

the point-> do I ever get to enjoy playing ANYTHING before it's "fixed"? Can we expect that you are going to respect the time and money we put into this game? Your statements make our time look like a quarterly report to you.

-Doubleshot values over...
No quote here, just a question... where exactly does it say what type of bonus ANY doubleshot value provides? You want to update this, fix a bug I never noticed, fine. Can you please make it so we can not waste our time with multiple bonuses that do not stack? Or put our minds at ease that blinding speed stacks with... anything, everything, something? Guesswork is not a replacement for annotating the bonus type within the game.

the point-> that was the point, just add some extra information with your "bug fixing" please.

You want to balance the game, to make all players' toons peers with each other, to prevent overpowered builds... tough. You could recreate the entire framework and mathematical variants and all us min-maxing old school pnp gamers are going to find a way to make a toon that we can walk through things with. If you truly care about balancing, please think along the the lines of, "how can I get the rest of the classes into those raids/quests/whatevers and have them matter alongside these functional and reliable builds that we just made possible last time." Stop trying to "fix" the game, and start trying to "improve" the game. We wouldn't be playing if it was broken, but then again that is why you have such an uneven balance amongst classes. Give us something to draw us away from paladins, from two-weapon fighting, or leave us alone to enjoy ourselves. Stop stepping on our toes and saying it was for our own good.

Spoonwelder

10-14-2015, 03:52 PM

It s not fine at all because it s not only dps, it s all about gameplay mechanic. As fury of the wild or Legendary dreadnaught, you need to have lot of procs to regen adrenaline and to proc stack of blitz. Bows are really slow attack speed and with this new MS/10k star, it ll reduce the potential to be efficient in epic levels. And it s exactly the same thing with shuriken with "mortal Fear" ... all this work to have good procs, the real power of shuriken builds was to have MANY shuriken to have lot of procs and NOT to send only 1 shuriken with high DPS.... all this reduced to nothing cause with maths on DPS all is fine....

Touche....redoing the math to remove the ranged power gets you to 16920 vs. 18000 about a 6% decrease in procs with an offsetting 17% increase in DPS......and that is based upon a 25% DS chance - if you have a higher than 34% standing DS% chance then you will actually be ahead.

New: Assuming 24BAB and 35% standing DS
Manyshot - 20 seconds (DS% + 24x4) = ~231%RoF x 20 = 4620
Cooldown -100 seconds (DS%) = ~135RoF * 100=13500

Total - 18120

So build accordingly :)

Renvar

10-14-2015, 03:57 PM

On the manyshot changes I just did some simple math (yes someone will redo it and do it better but I think the overall conclusion will not be changed too much)....

Very simple math = manyshot=4xRoF Vs. (RoF*(1+DS%+ 4xBAB(DS boost)) x 4xBAB(for ranged power boost) such that any DS%>5% is an improvement in the manyshot period plus you get full DS in the cooldown.

Old - with doubleshot removal therefore x=RoF=1
Manyshot 20 seconds 400%x = 8000
Cooldown 100 seconds 100%x = 10000

Total =18000

New: Assuming 24BAB and 25% standing DS
Manyshot - 20 seconds (DS% + 24x4) = ~221%RoF * 20xRangedpower196%= 8660
Cooldown -100 seconds (DS%) = ~125RoF * 100=12500

Total = 21160

This is before the Ranged Power upgrade with a fairly low DS%. So I think Ranged is coming off fine with this change.

1) Your old way is incorrect. Manyshot is 20 seconds of Manyshot, then 40 seconds of no doubleshot, then 60 seconds of regular doubleshot. The Doubleshot penalty only lasted for 60 seconds, not the whole 2 minutes, as you describe.
Manyshot 20 seconds 400%x = 8000
Cooldown 40 seconds 100%x = 4000
Cooldown 60 seconds 125%x = 8000

Total =20000

Not as big a difference.

2) This only considers base damage. You aren't taking into account on-proc attacks or special attacks. Take adrenaline, for example. If you are getting 300-400% damage on that and a +8 to crit range, it applies to all 4 arrows in old manyshot or the 2.21 arrows in new manyshot. This could result in crits that were in the 10's of thousands if the target was helpless (pinned). Also, you have other features not affected by ranged power such as the 8d8 force damage from mortal fear and 6d8 or 10d6 negative/fire damage from tier 1 on a TF weapon. (Not counting the Tier 2 crit proc). You are basically saying that manyshot does 1 proc per second. 4 arrows old way, 2.21 the new way. If you factor in this sample extra damage of 63 average damage per arrow, you are also losing 1.79 * 63 * 20 = 2,255 damage per 20 second manyshot cycle. It doesn't look to me like your new way offsets that entirely. And that doesn't count the on crit procs, the mortal fear proc itself, nor any procs on augments like Golem Heart's/etc, or other on proc damage events you get from gear, enhancements, or ED's (sense weakness for example).

This formula you provided is much too simple and doesn't show the whole picture.

redoubt

10-14-2015, 04:05 PM

Heavy armor still has 30DR, which is a pretty good reason to use it.

Yes, level 28 TF armor has that. What about every other piece of heavy armor?

unbongwah

10-14-2015, 04:06 PM

Manyshot is 20 seconds of Manyshot, then 40 seconds of no doubleshot, then 60 seconds of regular doubleshot. The Doubleshot penalty only lasted for 60 seconds, not the whole 2 minutes, as you describe.
IIRC, MS DS penalty is 70 seconds, which includes 20 sec. MS duration. So 20 secs MS, 50 secs no Doubleshot, 50 secs regular Doubleshot.

10K DS penalty is 45 secs.

Spoonwelder

10-14-2015, 04:07 PM

1) Your old way is incorrect. Manyshot is 20 seconds of Manyshot, then 40 seconds of no doubleshot, then 60 seconds of regular doubleshot. The Doubleshot penalty only lasted for 60 seconds, not the whole 2 minutes, as you describe.
Manyshot 20 seconds 400%x = 8000
Cooldown 40 seconds 100%x = 4000
Cooldown 60 seconds 125%x = 8000

Total =20000

Not as big a difference.

2) This only considers base damage. You aren't taking into account on-proc attacks or special attacks. Take adrenaline, for example. If you are getting 300-400% damage on that and a +8 to crit range, it applies to all 4 arrows in old manyshot or the 2.21 arrows in new manyshot. This could result in crits that were in the 10's of thousands if the target was helpless (pinned). Also, you have other features not affected by ranged power such as the 8d8 force damage from mortal fear and 6d8 or 10d6 negative/fire damage from tier 1 on a TF weapon. (Not counting the Tier 2 crit proc). You are basically saying that manyshot does 1 proc per second. 4 arrows old way, 2.21 the new way. If you factor in this sample extra damage of 63 average damage per arrow, you are also losing 1.79 * 63 * 20 = 2,255 damage per 20 second manyshot cycle. It doesn't look to me like your new way offsets that entirely. And that doesn't count the on crit procs, the mortal fear proc itself, nor any procs on augments like Golem Heart's/etc, or other on proc damage events you get from gear, enhancements, or ED's (sense weakness for example).

This formula you provided is much too simple and doesn't show the whole picture.

I did say it was quick math - my main point was that it wasn't a crushing blow to Ranged builds be they AA or Monkcher based....in the right scenario many characters will be better off.

Caprice

10-14-2015, 04:07 PM

You can still buy plain ol' hide armor in the harbor (hammer and chain), and then cannith craft it. But yeah it would be nice if they were added back to the loot tables.
Yes, but the basic version is pretty terrible other than for a bit more PRR/MRR, and that's going to be nerfed in a few weeks. I believe that version of Hide armor is fixed as AC 3 MDB 4, and there are no options that are scaled to higher AC and MDB at higher levels. The weakest possible Light Armor choice in the game is AC 3 MDB 6, after the armor revamp from a long time back (U14?), and that gets better AC and MDB as the absolute Min Level increases (as every other "new style" armor type (http://ddowiki.com/page/Armor_by_Proficiency)). I feel that there really should be some higher Absolute Minimum Level Medium armors with scaled stats (and augment slots!) that are accessible to non-twinked Druids.

The video is fairly interesting and I would suggest that it could be worth a listen to most people reading this thread. The first ~31 minutes is the discussion with Severlin. There are not a lot of new facts presented but I think it gives a feel for what is and is not negotiable in the changes in the short term. For instance it sounds like like they have fairly firm answers in the short term to a number of points that have been raised in this thread; e.g. there will be no Holy Sword + Longbow use for Silver Flame Paladins, no MRR or Tactics feats for non-Fighters anytime in the foreseeable future, and no partial MRR for Heavy Armor. They seem to want to see how the game plays on Lammania and/or live before they would consider budging on those. There was a specific mention that if we can back up statements/suggestions with math that would be particularly interesting, which suggests that number crunching on critical profiles and on Multishot/10K Stars comparisons might be well received. There was also a reminder that even though many of these changes may go live as-is they are not set in stone, and Turbine will be listening to feedback and watching their internal metrics and will rebalance afterwards as needed.

Angharad

10-14-2015, 04:16 PM

Clerics (and Heavy Armored other builds) take a hit.....poor clerics...nobody loves the cleric and he just wants you to bask in his aura.

This. A thousand times this.

Seriously, I've been playing a cleric since day one. It's kind of my thing. Briid is a first life, 28 straight cleric, built to heal. And, until recently (like the last month) when my spouse and i figured out how to two-man Reaver's, she had never done a raid. (*** not counting the time we figured out how to two-man Chrono before our hiatus. point still stands.)

Read that again.

Never done a raid.

NEVER.

Now I'll grant you, people on Khyber are generally jerks (insert rant re: no information being available for choosing a server and no, i'm not going to pay you a premium to move when i also don't know what others are like), and let's not even go into the fact that due to (i'm guessing) some sort of server issue, we got screwed out of the second half of the champion weekend, so no opportunity for full vendor lists...

But seriously. I already can't maintain my original purpose, since everybody can self-heal now. I can't solo; clerics aren't meant for that, and dammit Jim, i'm a healer, not a tank!

The only people who want me along are like level 15 people trying to run EE content WAAAAY under level. Never raids.

Ugh. Sorry. Got a bit off topic there.

The point I meant to make was, how many editions of D&D have there been now? According to Wiki, they count 9 (not including Pathfinder and other variants). And most people who are fans play a version, specifically that version, and not the others except on occasion. I'm a 3.5 fan, myself.

D&D, or more specifically WOTC, has been trying to solve the balance 'issue' (or at least D&D has, WOTC just wants to rape our wallets) for 40+ years now. They keep coming out with new editions to address it. And most of us have gone '@^$%# you, we're playing this one' because we're just okay with it. So what if clerics don't kill dragons? They keep the morons alive (I'm looking at you, fighters and barbarians...). So what if bards are kind of dorks? They make everyone better, and can be pretty cool themselves eventually (unless you count the dude who sat at my PnP table strumming his lute so loud we couldn't hear each other. that sucked). Wizards and Sorcerors? Dude, if you're not comfortable with being a glass cannon, you need to rethink your approach.

Point being, leave well enough alone. You want to make things reasonable? Balance the game? Take your EE 'scaling' (which isn't really scaling, it's just a case of the DM going '!@# you, I'll show you' and throwing gobs of nonsense around) and relabel it. Call it Insanity. Or God-mode. Something stupid, who care. Make it bragging rights only - the rest of us want to play the game, earn our gear and our rewards, enjoy the stuff that can be found, but not kill ourselves on %#!@ that, honestly, is idiotically difficult. Your precious Elite players will play it. They will love it. The rest of us will return to enjoying a game that we enjoyed all along.

Unless you really want to lose us. Which granted, since we bought a year apiece, means you get the better part of our $100 apiece and don't have to provide anything for it - and after all, isn't that what business is all about?

Careful, guys, the corporate BS is getting a little thick in here... You're starting to look like WOTC. And they won't even talk about you when the annual moment comes around.

***edited - i see we actually two-manned Chrono before taking our hiatus. Same goes, though.
***second edit - I'll do my own bleeping, thank you very much.

Tom.JonesJr

10-14-2015, 04:19 PM

Correct me if I am wrong but it appears that the new change to Manyshot will now benefit Throwers as it now changes the Doubleshot instead stating arrows. If this is so my Shuriken Thrower will need to now add the Manyshot feat.

While we are at it in changing things in the rebalancing things why does the Ranger past life feat +1 on Ranged items not work on Thrown items. Thrown items have the same stats as bows, about the same ROF, and are used at a distance(ie. ranged).

KevinMullins

10-14-2015, 04:19 PM

Well since these changes are going to happen a couple things need to take place in my opinion:

1. +20 heart of wood for every character
2. Remove champions , because these thread admits it failed to do what it set out to do make the game harder. ( at least give an option out button for champions )
3. A way to deconstruct thunderforge weapons and armor to get back ingredients ( to re-craft with ).
4. You need to add a lot of new players to game or merge servers to compensate for loss of players due to changes.

3A. A way to deconstruct greensteel weapons to get back ingredients
3B A way to deconstruct alchemical weapons and shileds to get back ingredients
3C And any other weapon, armor, or shield crafting in game to get back ingredients

Spoonwelder

10-14-2015, 04:21 PM

I did say it was quick math - my main point was that it wasn't a crushing blow to Ranged builds be they AA or Monkcher based....in the right scenario many characters will be better off.
Note for a ranged focused character 75% standing DS is a reasonable goal:

8% item(2 quivers also random gen bows)
5%shadow arrows
20% AA capstone
20% DWS Tier 5
10% Epic Feat
3% profane shadow striker armor
9% doubleshot from EPL feats
---
75%
+3% if elf/morninglord

Temporary buffs of
20% - Killer
6% Warchanter Reckless Chant

Angharad

10-14-2015, 04:26 PM

Finally - the day of the healbot is gone. Forcing people into that model by sponge healing heavy armor users ain't going to happen. There are far less players on and most divine players like to play a little bit more diverse things that heal Mr heavy armor without MRR. That's the real reason why MOTU killed off armored players. Every update after that added higher DPS and more HP on critters and going into melee was more or less suicide since there wasn't enough healbots around. And who want to play 'cast renew and heal on soaker?;

...

The result is that people who spent a few years investing in the game and found interest in diversity will most likely feel tempted to walk away. It's a far more realistic assessment that the fantasy that people will start grouping up and the healbots will come out of the woodwork.

I'll play... please can I play?

No, seriously, i think you're right. I'm just sad that it's true - the days of the healbot really are behind us. **tear**

Bennum

10-14-2015, 04:29 PM

These changes will gimp three of my characters that are as of now only ok, I have never been able to do top tier quests and get top tier loot and I never will be able to now. Just as I was making progress on characters that don't struggle in content they get nerfed to dust because of what vets can do with them. I was just getting comfortable in EH, once my first sub is up I will likely be out of here.

garynash7070

10-14-2015, 04:34 PM

First off, I am opposed to most of the changes. You, being the developers, have not listened like you say you do to players. You might have listened to some players, players council, and a few others in Turbine, but you couldn't possibly have come to a legitimate consensus regarding the "player base". You guys are taking a small sample of people and going with whatever you think. If you want to know what the majority thinks do this:

1) Create a tab on the players screen like we have for store, auction house etc.
2) Post the changes you have in mind
3) Have it only on the main player character to avoid repeats
4) Let the players either rate the changes individually or vote yes/no

Actually it's very simple. You would have a consensus. For those that don't vote or respond, then they truly can't gripe anymore about changes. This seems more fair. More accurate as well.

You guys will never get the "players" thoughts, only a small percentage. This way you get way more data to base your decisions on.

Really not that hard, that is if you guys really want to make a game the "players" want and not what a simple minority or even what you as dev's want(knowing you don't play the game like we do)!

redoubt

10-14-2015, 04:35 PM

Renvar

10-14-2015, 04:37 PM

I did say it was quick math - my main point was that it wasn't a crushing blow to Ranged builds be they AA or Monkcher based....in the right scenario many characters will be better off.

Actually, when you run ALL the numbers, not just base damage, it is a DPS drop off and there are no scenarios I can think of where the new way better. You would have to have no other additive damage sources beyond base weapon damage. Which isn't realistic unless you are intentionally gimping your character. I would advise you to do a more thorough look at the math before forming an opinion based on some quick math. The quick math isn't accurate.

The Monkcher is not better off. 10k stars is pretty weak for anything except a pure monk now. How do figure that 10k stars is still viable?

In the past, extra attacks were purely wisdom based. Now they are based on monk level. That greatly damages any heavy splash. A 12 ranger/ 6 monk with a 55 wisdom would have had a 100% chance for 2 arrows and a 50% chance for 3 and an 8% chance for 4.

Now, that same character will have 5*6 = 30% doubleshot added to their own doubleshot, which sustained, is typically between 20-50%. So around an 80% chance for a second arrow. No chance for 3rd or 4th arrow.

Over 20 seconds, Old 10k (RoF of once per second in example) would give this character 20 arrows + 20 arrows + 10 arrows + 1.6 arrows for a total of 51.6 arrows. New 10k gives 20 arrows + 16 arrows = 36 arrows. That is a drop off of 30%. (With a 70+ wisdom you are looking at 60 arrows vs. 36 arrows. Almost a 50% reduction in RoF)

All new 10k adds is RP equal to wisdom. In this case 56RP. which is roughly 50% more base damage only. No damage from on proc events or extra damage. That's not going to be close to equivalent. Unless you just don't have any gear or enhancements or ED features that add extra damage.

A level 12 monk is getting around 40-44 arrows. This is closer, but still a net loss in DPS. (especially over a high wisdom build)

Now, if you are 20 Monk (or 18), then 10k stars is better for you. This is where the value is. A 20 monk can get 250% doubleshot without much effort and then is only losing the 8% chance at a 4th arrow in comparison with the old way. The wisdom RP addition and removal of the doubleshot penalty clearly will offset this. Again, assuming a mid-50's wisdom. If you get wisdom up to the 70's or higher, old 10k starts to perform better again. But, really, I don't see that full monks have that much to worry about.

For anyone splashing heavily, it is a clear loser, even at middling wisdom numbers.

KevinMullins

10-14-2015, 04:38 PM

first off, i am opposed to most of the changes. You, being the developers, have not listened like you say you do to players. You might have listened to some players, players council, and a few others in turbine, but you couldn't possibly have come to a legitimate consensus regarding the "player base". You guys are taking a small sample of people and going with whatever you think. If you want to know what the majority thinks do this:

1) create a tab on the players screen like we have for store, auction house etc.
2) post the changes you have in mind
3) have it only on the main player character to avoid repeats
4) let the players either rate the changes individually or vote yes/no

actually it's very simple. You would have a consensus. For those that don't vote or respond, then they truly can't gripe anymore about changes. This seems more fair. More accurate as well.

You guys will never get the "players" thoughts, only a small percentage. This way you get way more data to base your decisions on.

Really not that hard, that is if you guys really want to make a game the "players" want and not what a simple minority or even what you as dev's want(knowing you don't play the game like we do)!

great sugestion!!!!!

Grimreich

10-14-2015, 04:40 PM

For the most part, I like what you're doing here to mitigate some power imbalance, but I think there are better ways to do some of it.

New Keen/Improved Critical: I'm assuming this is based on the idea that it's easier to clear mobs with higher damage/crit multiplier weapons based on the fewer hits it takes to kill something, the more quickly you can kill multiple enemies. Understanding that there's already a ton of ways to improve attack speed, I still think it would be more balanced to have something that increases attack speed/threat range based on multiplier. For example: 18-20/X2 = 40% attack speed, 19-20/X2 = 20% attack speed, 20/X3 = +1 threat range. This is a rough idea, but with the right balance, this will allow all weapons to kill things big or small at roughly the same pace. This would also allow you to remove the attack speed bonuses from single weapon fighting, maybe reduce the feats in the chain to two and split the difference of melee power to 5 each. This would also give two handed weapons that edge again.

Issues in balancing fighters: Fighters in D&D are about versatility of consistent passive effectiveness or specializing in 1 weapon (or in DDOs case, weapon type.) Doing something like changing Weapon Specialization to a flat 5 Melee Power, changing Kensei to be more critical hit oriented and improving the core enhancements all the way up the board for all the trees. Kensei with a capstone that increases critical threat and range +1 (in addition to and stacking with the tier 5 enhancement) and +1 to critical damage before modifiers per core enhancement. This will give fighters their own niche and keep with the theme fighters often take in pen and paper with weapon master. Stalwart Defender with 4MRR per core enhancement, Vanguard with some melee power per core enhancement (to keep up with Paladins, but keep them different.)

If you want to balance magic damage reduction, but are having trouble with it due to Evasion: Remove Evasion and have light/no armor reduce 100% of magic damage on a successful reflex save, medium armor 50% and heavy armor 25% or some better balanced numbers. But also keep MRR as you plan to change it.

While I appreciate that MRR/PRR is a powerful mechanic, 4 feats is rough even on a Fighter. Perhaps reduce it to 2 and make them +8% or +10% to PRR/ +15(flat)MRR each? At levels 7 and 14?

ThrakThor

10-14-2015, 04:40 PM

Repeating Crossbows and Doubleshot
Fixed a bug where Doubleshot was not being reduced for repeating crossbows. (Doubleshot chance is divided by 3 for repeating crossbows.)

Sev~

This for me is the most personal change because they were the red-headed step child now they are simply the abandoned red headed step child. My l.28 pure Artificer is really going to have little going for him. I did not even know he had this bug going for him and felt that he was under performing compared to his peers so now he'll do even worse. "Hey, can I haz Deadly?" will be the cry of the party. I do not expect to be fully on par with melee or full on archers as I do have spells (but let's be honest Blade Barrier is not end game any more and I do not have the SP pool for Ruin and Hellball) but with the changes to 'balance' rogues/Pali/other hybrids Arti's are now even more damaged. It feels like they are where Warlocks will be in a few years, they were so fun and cool and had lots of shiny new toys and abilities then the devs forgot about them and only throw them a bone every now and then (I will admit the new repeater got me excited until this change occurred).

Warlock changes are needed in Heroic fo' shizzle but single target DPS did not need the nerf. And, as others have pointed out in EE they are not always over powered or often the king of the heap. That may be hard to code but look at changing the blast damage autogrants, maybe keep it at 2d6 all the way up to l.10 they really ramp it up to 9d6 by l.20. Or make it d3 base damage and you get an auto grant feat at 12 to make it a d4, then a d6 at l.16. Make the Epic Damage Feats +4d6 but drop the % increase on bursts a bit further, or even a l.30 feat to give you a d8 base damage. There are ways to keep the single target feasible but the AoE damage respectable and not make it too OP in heroics.

Cheers

Souless

10-14-2015, 04:48 PM

I am opposed to all of these changes. There are ppl here that have said it better than I ever could.

The things you are about to do in the name of balance is a joke.

Do you really think the PRR/MRR removal for armor increases our options?!?!?!

Do you really think a barb on the front line can survive with a full second delay on the healing proc?!?! ?!

Do you think you could design a class without needing to change it at your first opportunity?!?!?!

Do you think reducing DPS will enhance our game experience?!?!

LOLOLOLOLOlolololololololololol

The Bytcher~

Renvar

10-14-2015, 04:48 PM

Note for a ranged focused character 75% standing DS is a reasonable goal:

8% item(2 quivers also random gen bows)
5%shadow arrows
20% AA capstone
20% DWS Tier 5
10% Epic Feat
3% profane shadow striker armor
9% doubleshot from EPL feats
---
75%
+3% if elf/morninglord

Temporary buffs of
20% - Killer
6% Warchanter Reckless Chant

I don't know about "reasonable". "Max possible" sounds more accurate. Also, don't bother listing the elf one. You ran out of AP's. It would take 90 to have that plus the capstone for AA and the tier 5 DWS.

CeltEireson

10-14-2015, 04:51 PM

I don't know about "reasonable". "Max possible" sounds more accurate. Also, don't bother listing the elf one. You ran out of AP's. It would take 90 to have that plus the capstone for AA and the tier 5 DWS.

He missed the 2% guild bonus to doubleshot ;) so not quite the max possible! And also Zeal of the righteous - +50% doubleshot, well for a few seconds before it drops.

CeltEireson

10-14-2015, 04:52 PM

Nothing to see ere ;)

bloodnose13

10-14-2015, 04:54 PM

The changes are designed to cut back on the power of two weapon fighting Paladins, Vanguards, and fix the fact that Paladin 14 hybrids are by many players' estimation the best missile characters. Throwing weapons are not affected by Holy Sword.

Sev~

seems to be like you are looking in wrong place for that "too much dps" on paladins, i would look at the insanely overpowered cleaves you gave to knight of chalice with 3 and 5 w bonuses, or maybe its the retrubition instakilling everything around them, ill repeat myself again and again but giveing kotc those was like sticking little ducttape to fix a problem that requires bigger redesign.

you change holy sword and/or anything that is a general use effect for all paladins, and in process everyone playing character that is mostly defender gets hit with that nerf the most, you make ddo more and more to be dps game but you make paladins that are basicly a watered down clone of fighter with self healing, maybe its time you actualy looked at each of those trees separately and made each of them work separately (each of them should have internal balance of dps abilities, defence and utility, themed for paladin as a class and their abilities), and not kotc as all out dps and defender just as a supplement for vanguards or kotc. why cant you make holy sword work similarly like you do with keen and work best only for certain "safe" weapons, i would be all up for faith weapons but thats bit too restricting, but maybe there should be a set of base martial weapons that would benefit from that spell the most and would not be overpowered in a process, just equalized to others.

in my opinion vanguard should be made into prestige available to all classes same as harper and paladin trees completely redesigned. im pretty sure that after bit of rebalancing lots of other classes that can and use shields would love that prestige, i know i would on warpriest cleric for example.

as for divine grace, if i understand it right, you want to circumvent charisma completely???? on a paladin????? so smites can be completely ignored on non kotc paladin even now, and layons on epic levels can be used for powering light the dark that does not use charisma at all, so whats the point of spending any points into charisma at all. if you want to change that feat make it LIMIT how much charisma it can apply to saves based on % paladin levels in all levels.2 paladin levels in 20 levels, would be what 10%? = 10% of charisma to saves. please dont trivialize another of paladins iconic element. you did that already by giveing smites and layons as part of a sentinel destiny to anyone who wants it.........

about prr and mrr i would like to suggest you make it either not work at all or have limited effect against traps, high prr/mrr are able to run through even the EE traps with no issues and i think that dumbs down the need for rogues and trap disabling charactes, most of time i see only traps being disabled after everyone runs through them just for exp bonuses. make traps dangerous again.

Manganakus

10-14-2015, 04:55 PM

Renvar

10-14-2015, 04:55 PM

He missed the 2% guild bonus to doubleshot ;) so not quite the max possible!

He also called it "for any ranged character". What he meant to say was "for any pure 20 ranger". Because no other ranged class or ranger splash can get the AA Capstone and the DWS Tier 5. If you try to go elf, it takes 15 AP to get to AA. Spending 41 points there makes it impossible to spend 31 in DWS for the last 20%, even if you have 5 ranger levels.

Renvar

10-14-2015, 05:01 PM

The best suggestion so far since I seriously doubt more than 10% of the players of the games will react or event read this thread in the forum. So having a minority of 10% giving arguments (or not) and decide for the whole is unfair.

An easier way would maybe to put a link on the launcher that leads toward the survey on our Turbine account page.

If I was Evil, I would even say put a different weights for VIP, Premium, long time players and so on...

I disagree. Given that even on the forums more than half the posts about the IC/Keen changes show an incorrect understanding of A) how IC/keen works today and B) how it will work in these new changes, if you go with an open vote by the entire player base, you will have a bunch of people voting on changes who have no clue what the changes even mean. Or, even worse, are voting on them with an erroneous understanding.

"I will vote for the holy sword change because it will make my 15/5 pally/rogue do even more DPS!"

barecm

10-14-2015, 05:02 PM

Note for a ranged focused character 75% standing DS is a reasonable goal:

8% item(2 quivers also random gen bows)
5%shadow arrows
20% AA capstone
20% DWS Tier 5
10% Epic Feat
3% profane shadow striker armor
9% doubleshot from EPL feats
---
75%
+3% if elf/morninglord

Temporary buffs of
20% - Killer
6% Warchanter Reckless Chant

I did a doubleshot build for a ranger a few lives back. The armor did not stack with the quiver or skirrmisher's bracers. If I remember correctly, my max standing doubleshot was 57% and with Divine Crusader I could get well over 100% for a short period.

Caprice

10-14-2015, 05:03 PM

This for me is the most personal change because they were the red-headed step child now they are simply the abandoned red headed step child. My l.28 pure Artificer is really going to have little going for him. I did not even know he had this bug going for him and felt that he was under performing compared to his peers so now he'll do even worse. "Hey, can I haz Deadly?" will be the cry of the party. I do not expect to be fully on par with melee or full on archers as I do have spells (but let's be honest Blade Barrier is not end game any more and I do not have the SP pool for Ruin and Hellball) but with the changes to 'balance' rogues/Pali/other hybrids Arti's are now even more damaged. It feels like they are where Warlocks will be in a few years, they were so fun and cool and had lots of shiny new toys and abilities then the devs forgot about them and only throw them a bone every now and then (I will admit the new repeater got me excited until this change occurred).
I hear you. This was a longstanding bug, as in probably years old, but it was acceptable in the past when Artificers and Rogue Mechanics were both relatively weak performers. However now that Rogue Mechanics are overperforming I guess it is considered a priority. Alas but this means that your Artificer, who was indeed already low on the DPS totem pole, gets knocked a few pegs lower. It won't be a competitive class until after it gets its enhancement pass sometime in 2016. If you want to feel powerful again you might try Rogue Mechanic, or if you haven't done any Ranger Past Lives yet now would be a great time as that adds +2 ranged damage as a passive bonus (stacking up to 3 times) and Ranger is in a pretty good spot right now. Then you'll be even better when Artificer is brought up to par in the future.

mikarddo

10-14-2015, 05:05 PM

Note for a ranged focused character 75% standing DS is a reasonable goal:

8% item(2 quivers also random gen bows)
5%shadow arrows
20% AA capstone
20% DWS Tier 5
10% Epic Feat
3% profane shadow striker armor
9% doubleshot from EPL feats
---
75%
+3% if elf/morninglord

Temporary buffs of
20% - Killer
6% Warchanter Reckless Chant

Note, for a halfling monkcher with 12 monk levels using AA tier 5 the actual number is 29% and thats only at level 28.
Ship, quiver, EPL and epic feat.

Darsith

10-14-2015, 05:07 PM

I did want to let folks know that Severlin joined me on the livestream today to take Q&A on this for about a half hour. You can find the archive on Twitch (http://www.twitch.tv/ddostream/v/20672476) or YouTube (https://youtu.be/CzHJg8KiVJU).

Can barely hear Sev in the archived footage, any chance we can get a transcript of the conversation with him?

CeltEireson

10-14-2015, 05:08 PM

I disagree. Given that even on the forums more than half the posts about the IC/Keen changes show an incorrect understanding of A) how IC/keen works today and B) how it will work in these new changes, if you go with an open vote by the entire player base, you will have a bunch of people voting on changes who have no clue what the changes even mean. Or, even worse, are voting on them with an erroneous understanding.

"I will vote for the holy sword change because it will make my 15/5 pally/rogue do even more DPS!"

Plus I'd say a golden rule of games development is that its not always a good idea to give players what they want. Might not be the case here - but its always a good idea to listen to your players and if you disagree with what they're saying carefully explain why.

I don't think the changes are as doom laden as some seem to think - such as the TWF changes, if the loss of 6 MP is make or break for a character build there's something wrong. Besides its not even a loss of 6% damage per hit, as you will already have a substantial amount of MP from epic levels, items and destinies so its only 6% of your base damage not 6% of your overall damage especially if you are running in LD.

hp1055cm

10-14-2015, 05:20 PM

Holy Sword (Paladin)
Blood Strength (Barbarian Ravager)
Critical Rage (Barbarian Ravager)Don't know, don't care, don't play either class.

Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Improved Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Greater Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Don't understand this one. I do play tempest Ranger and/or Rogue and think adding Melee Power to these feats was a positive change.
Removing melee power is a mistake. Tempest Rangers are not OP - they need their TWF bonuses. Find another way to punish so called "exploiters" without hurting those that play according to "the rules" (whatever those rules are).

Doubleshot
Repeating Crossbows and Doubleshot
Manyshot
Ten Thousand Stars
Mechanical Reloader (Rogue Mechanic)Don't know, don't care, don't play ranged based toons.

Pulverizer (Legendary Dreadnought)
Improved Critical
KeenWhatever. I'm not a meta-gamer and don't know how this affects anything.

Armor Changes
The amount of Physical Resist Rating that armor provides has been changed.
* Heavy armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 2) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Medium armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1.5) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Light Armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
Now THIS is just plain incomprehensible. The whole reason for adding MRR in the first place was to give people a reason to use heavy armor again - REMEMBER when everybody was running around in robes and maybe light armor? What - now too many people use Heavy armor??? Seriously? It's really not that hard to fix this - enforce the penalties already on heavy armor - spell failure and skill checks. Like giving casting classes an enhancement to bypass spell failure was EVER a good idea you should have seen the problem coming a mile away. Take MRR away from Light Armor - that actually might be a good change. But Heavy armor NEEDS it to be relevant. Another way to fix it would be to increase the ASF penalties in heavy armor, take away the enhancements that bypass ASF, and increase the time to equip the armor to 45 seconds. It's really not that hard. You should be buffing heavy armor, not diminishing it.
Again, you don't "fix" things by breaking it for those that are doing it right.
On a side note - does any class use medium armor? Why not?

Tactical Training
Tactical Combatant
Tactical Mastery
Tactical Supremacy
Heavy Armor Training
Heavy Armor Combatant
Heavy Armor Master
Heavy Armor Champion Yeah, okay I guess, except why so many feats/enhancements? Are they auto-granted? Do other "fighter classes" get similar bonuses?

Eldritch Blast and other enhancements (Warlock)
The spellpower scaling for Eldritch Blast and several enhancements has been reduced.

Eldritch Burst (Enlightened Spirit)
120%
100%
[/TR]

Spirit Blast (Enlightened Spirit)
120%
100%

[/TABLE] Why? Didn't they already get nerfed like 3 months ago?
Thank goodness I am just about to finish my Warklock lives and get them done before you guys ruined it.

I will be following up this post with some details on our thoughts on balance and design. This whole concept of "Balance" is ridiculous. I'd rather have uniqueness in the different classes with each one excelling at some attributes. Like should a Warforged Wizard be able to "sneak" as good as a rogue? Is that what "balance" is? I'd rather have the rogue be 5X as good as the wizard at sneaking and have the wizard 5X as good at spellcasting.
I mean, so what if someone wears heavy armor that they aren't proficient at? If they endure the penalties for that - which appeantly aren't significant for some spellcasters - then so what. Or enforce the existing penalties - ASF in particular.

Mryal

10-14-2015, 05:22 PM

Since those are balancing changes...why not talk of actual,rebalancing of all, not just of characters that deal mainly physical damage (except warlock).

Where is the caster love? All you have really done with this was gimp casting classes even more with the removal of MRR on armors, while leaving people that take 3-4 paladin lvls for the silly stances unchanged, and that is where the high defense for little investment is.
Doing physical damage is currently way better than doing elemental, spell damage, since it actualy costs sp wich costs pots and at the same time does less damage and you have to bother with elemental resistances while physical melee and ranged classes do not.What if your main damage is Fire, with the new content, what do you think will happen? I'll tell you what happens, youre F***ed.

How about also rebalancing content, why is there elemental immunities on all of the new content, why is the new raid full of red nameds that cannot be CCed?
I think players want to be able to play classes that do suport or crowd control roles and these changes do not allow any of that.These changes do not change the fact that going full melee/ranged power whatever for the whole content is the best way to go.

I think players want to have bringing a caster or even a cleric in your raid be meaningfull and not "just a DPS drop" like it is now.

Personaly, i want to be able to actualy use my druid pet effectively, and not have it be a sp drain bot for me everytime it dies.I want my 3rd tree, i want meaningfull summons and not have to be strapped to using fire and ice forms.

PsychoBlonde

10-14-2015, 05:25 PM

I tentatively approve of the changes. They seem fairly functional on first blush. I actually kind of like the Improved Crit changes. I would very strongly suggest changing Earth Stance and Overwhelming Critical to not be restricted to a 19-20 effect as part of this. You may get fewer crits, but ALL the crits you get will be Real Crits. This would also make your damage over time a lot more predictable.

Some thoughts, though:

Consider making the first feat of each set available to non-fighters, kind of like how Weapon Focus is available to non-fighters.

I STRONGLY encourage making a dodge set that looks like this and is available to Fighters and Monks as part of the pass for those two classes:

Dodge +3% Dodge and Dodge Cap when wearing light armor, +5% when wearing no armor

Improved Dodge +4% Dodge and Dodge Cap when wearing light armor, +6% when wearing no armor

Greater Dodge +5% Dodge and Dodge Cap when wearing light armor, +7% when wearing no armor

Supreme Dodge +6% Dodge and Dodge Cap when wearing light armor, +8% when wearing no armor

For a max of +18%/26% for light/no armor.

I would also additionally make the suggestion that you KEEP +MRR for MEDIUM armor only. This will make the function of the armor types quite distinct. Light grants evasion and no MRR. Heavy grants big AC and big PRR. Medium has medium AC and medium PRR but also grants MRR. That's an interesting tradeoff.

Power Attack does not scale well into higher levels and should probably be changed to grant melee power instead of a flat numerical bonus.

Combat Expertise is still an unspeakably lousy feat and needs to be revisited, along with Improved Trip, Improved Feint, and Whirlwind. Adding more good feats for Fighters just makes these even more laughably useless. My suggestion would be to make Combat Expertise an activated effect instead of a modal ability that increases your AC and PRR by a substantial amount (like 50%) for a short time (10 seconds?) and also fires off an AOE Intimidate. Improved Trip and Improved Feint just need to have the requirement for Combat Expertise removed. I would suggest on Whirlwind, instead of making it a one-time AOE cleave, have it increase your doublestrike and melee power by, say, 30% for 10 seconds. Those changes alone would do some interesting stuff to Fighters, because you'd have lots of useful and interesting feat options going on. Do I go max PRR? Max tactics? Dodge? Whirlwind?

I also strongly suggest doing something to nudge casters back in the direction of robes. My initial suggestion would be to take the Mental Toughness, Spell Penetration, and Spell Focus (and epic destiny spellpower) feats and make them all doubly effective if you're wearing no armor. Maybe also extend this to enhancements. This would be a significant tradeoff of defense for offensive capability, a tradeoff that really doesn't exist at the moment.

I would also suggest making more stat choices available on some of the caster-focused epic destinies, as well as basing DC's for almost all abilities off the highest of Int, Wis, or Cha.

Might even like to see an epic ability where targets of Enchantment or Transmutation spells have to make two successful saving throws to throw off the effect. Or maybe they become dazed for 6 seconds (no save) after clearing the primary effect.

I would also suggest having the monk stances have more effect if you're actually invested in monk levels. So, say, for Fire stance you get an additional +2 melee power/monk level. Ocean stance you'd get +1 dodge/tactics/saves per 4 monk levels. Earth Stance should grant an additional +2 PRR/monk level. Air stance should get additional doublestrike/doubleshot chance/monk level. I'd also suggest taking the crit multiplier off earth stance. Monks badly need an enhancement overhaul as well, of course.

Sirea

10-14-2015, 05:32 PM

Whelp, at least this has helped me prioritize my TRs. I guess any monkcher, wolf, or tree builds can wait, as well as fighter. Gotta pick up the pace on the others, I suppose.

dunklezhan

10-14-2015, 05:33 PM

I don't think it's right that paladins can't get access to some kind of MRR on their heavy armour. They are holy warriors of their god, their high saves are indicative that they are intended to fight vs magic well, I think therefore even non S&B pallies should have the opportunity to get some MRR. It doesn't have to be as much as fighters can now get from those feats (especially since pallies couldnt' afford the feats anyway) but perhaps some vanguard enhancements could apply to armour without requiring a shield or even a particular stance?

Surely that would improve build options for multiclasses - otherwise we have a situation where 'DPS tanks' are going to feel obliged to take specifically fighter levels if they really want to be effective at the top end.

Alcedes

10-14-2015, 05:37 PM

I am most concerned about these things:

Armored characters were well behind Evasion builds.
Shields didn't offer enough benefits to offset the loss of DPS.

I am not sure if I understand you correctly or not. Are you implying that these things have been fixed? Because I believe the majority of the community would disagree.
Armored characters are still WAY behind. Granted, Armor works fine up until Epic Hard. But in Epic Elite, it is still WAY better to have Evasion, High Dodge, and Displacement. Even being heavily armored and using Displacement clickies does not yield equal results. Is it better than it was? Certainly. But Evasion builds are still ahead noticeably.

And shields STILL do not offer enough benefit to offset the DPS loss in the majority of content. What good does it to be to take 20% less damage at the cost of 50% of my DPS? In the long run, you are taking more damage because you are taking 3-4 times longer to kill.

Temporary hit point abilities were considered "terrible".

"Were"? Still are. Unless you are a warlock of course. What good is 30 Temp HP when I am being hit for 350 damage on my tank? And no, my tank is no slouch either. 190 AC, 250 PRR, 165 MRR, and 2800 HP fully buffed. Thank goodness for the massive HP pool too. I frequently find myself being blasted on for 300-500 damage from TRASH mobs. If it were not for my Displacement clickies, surviving some content would be nearly impossible.

Basic armor offers too much mitigation for its cost. While we are happy that armored characters are relevant again, we want to cut back on it a bit.

That might be true in some content. But in most Epic Elites, "Basic Armor" offers nothing. I have a 76% defense chance "At Level". Sounds great. Except i never fight anything "at level" in an epic elite. Everything these days is level 65+. This renders my "Defense Chance" to like nothing and now im solely reliant on my PRR. Which even with 75% damage reduction from PRR im still being hammered for 350 damage by trash mobs. It is WAY better to simply not be hit than it is to try to soak the damage.

Classes like Bard and Paladin have good spells, and strong class abilities. They can expect, if they build entirely towards melee, to deal out good melee DPS.

Have you looked over the paladin spells lately? They are awful. Many are useful for heroic leveling. But into Epics, most are completely obsoleted by gear. Other than Cure Critical (if you have the right build), Zeal, and Holy Sword very few serve any real purpose and none do anything noteworthy for DPS.

Lonnbeimnech

10-14-2015, 05:37 PM

This whole concept of "Balance" is ridiculous. I'd rather have uniqueness in the different classes with each one excelling at some attributes. Like should a Warforged Wizard be able to "sneak" as good as a rogue? Is that what "balance" is? I'd rather have the rogue be 5X as good as the wizard at sneaking and have the wizard 5X as good at spellcasting.

That's basically it, but also that you would actually want to build for it. So your rogue can sneak 5x better, now what? will that make him able to complete content about as well as a wizard, but in a different way? or is it just that he is 5x better at something that is useless, and therefor no one has any reason to make a rogue.

Cordovan

10-14-2015, 05:41 PM

Just a reminder that profanity is not allowed, nor are personal attacks against others or the DDO team. We understand that this is a passionate issue, but please keep your posts in line with the community guidelines.

dunklezhan

10-14-2015, 05:46 PM

I'm sure someone has mentioned this. But on the stream re holy sword and silver flame - could you not make a new spell, holy bow? Added to your spell book with the relevant deity feat, and then give it different, more balanced bonuses for bow use that wouldnt' have to be the same as the melee version?

Drwaz99

10-14-2015, 05:49 PM

This is all I will say on this since it seems like "willing to listen to feedback" isn't very encouraging:

I spent days and weeks farming for endgame gear out of Deathwyrm. The nerf to Holy sword and IMP CRIT combined with everything else is going to make my choice of weapon not ideal anymore. I'm not going to regrind Deathwyrm. If there is not trade in available when this goes live so I can pick up a new weapons (as suggested and only allow people to do it once), count me, a player since 2007, out.

I feel as you're listening to a very small selected group here in the forums and I'm NOT at all happy with the direction. Hope you make the right decision.

Xario

10-14-2015, 05:51 PM

Please, while changing TWF animation can you look also on whirlwind feat, which is bugged for years and is working properly only while unarmed?

the_one_dwarfforged

10-14-2015, 05:51 PM

Re: fighter tactics
I'm not sure I understand this. These feats will be available to fighters only? and supply up to +20 bonus to tactical feats? Is the game keeping the d20 window? So either mob saves are balanced against fighters with these feats making them the only capable class of landing them or mob saves are balanced for all classes and fighters investing in these feats have no-fail-even-on-epic elite stuns and trips?

this is why fighters should only have a moderate dc advantage, but have a much greater variety and amount of abilities to use.

ive said it a thousand times in a thousand places, but +dc is still the result. however i am willing to take it for two reasons:

1) given the motherf*cking INSANE saves on ee reavers and such in new amrath, these +dc things are kind of necessary (not sure they will be cost effective enough in the amount that one would have to take them to actually land stun reliably though).

2) theres still hope that new abilities are added with the kensei pass.

Cordovan

10-14-2015, 05:55 PM

CThruTheEgo

10-14-2015, 05:57 PM

Alcedes

10-14-2015, 06:03 PM

Sev,

Honestly, I think you guys are going about all of this all wrong. The issue is not that Armor/PRR/MRR work to well. If anything, they dont really work well enough. The problem is you are bottom-loading it. People who are investing massively into PRR/MRR are still getting hit PLENTY hard and dont have the DPS to end a fight quickly so ultimately are taking more damage over the course of the battle.

The first 100 points of PRR/MRR are by far the easiest to achieve. You can stack that up with very little cost. And that first 100 points awards 50% damage reduction!! Already, with just 100 points gained, you have earned 2/3 of the potential PRR/MRR bonus. The next 100 (we are at 200 total now!) points, takes QUITE an investment. And it nets you a whopping 15-16% bonus. So the EASY and almost zero cost first 100 points, grants me a 50% reduction, while the next 100 points which actually cost me DPS and utility grant me less than 1/3 of original bonus. And then, there is the points BEYOND 200. At this point you have spent a lot. you have sacrificed TONS. and you have basically invested everything for the next 50 points. And for this, you raise your bonus by a staggering 3-5%.

Why? Why are we trying to balance a system that is fundamentally flawed at the very core of its design? Shouldnt all of this be reversed?

The first 100 points grants the least as it is the easiest to achieve. The next 100 points pays out a heft bonus. But shouldnt the investment BEYOND 200 be where it starts to pay off the most?

Vargouille

10-14-2015, 06:09 PM

Trying to catch up only about a days worth of posts with some thoughts...

Honest question, with zero sarcasm: It is really hard to code the spell so it only affect the favored weapon of the paladin's deity?
1. Yes. In retrospect the tech used for favored weapons is fairly brittle and hard to extend and use for other things. For some time it's something I'd like to rework with time, but it just hasn't made it to the top of priorities. It would be quite time consuming to do and somewhat error-prone since it would largely require redoing the entire "favored weapon" system and all feats / enhancements that relate to them.
2. Making Holy Sword only affect your deity's favored weapons (per se) is not definitely an improvement (or definitely welcome by players).

We still discussing changes of course and explore options.

Could you clarify assassin knife spec and daggers with IC Pierce? Krelar reinforced my suspicion that it will be 16-20/3 instead of 15-20/3, making Kukris the assassin weapon of choice. . .despite all the named assassin daggers that have been added.

That suspicion is correct with the current proposal.

There are some things we're discussing and considering with things like Knife Specialization and Swashbuckling (which are similar kinds of things).

Has anyone noticed that the devs have apparently stopped bothering to post on this thread?
Nope. Though posting around 8am our time may make you feel like we haven't posted much in the twelve hours prior to that - that would be true!

Please don't remove all the MRR from heavy (and I guess medium) armor. Make it 1/2 the PRR or something. Don't tie PRR to BAB, it's a percentage reduction. I need it just as much at level 5 when I'm being clobbered by extra damage dealing Champions as I do at level 28.

We've had some discussions along these lines, and in the abstract mathematical sense I've argued from your position in some cases - PRR absolutely is percentage based and theoretically could be created in a way that doesn't require increasing with leveling.

However, the most common current feedback (but certainly not the only feedback!) we get is that epic is too easy in some cases, and heroic is far too easy in most cases.

Will you tune down EE level 30 quests that are overperforming? I'm looking at Necro IV and ToEE archers/cultists/end fight...
Some of those changes are already in progress.

Clemeit

10-14-2015, 06:15 PM

Armor Changes
The amount of Physical Resist Rating that armor provides has been changed.
* Heavy armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 2) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Medium armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1.5) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Light Armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
Fixed a bug where players were getting Physical Resist Rating for armor with which they were not proficient.

(Note: The Physical Resist Rating and Magical Resist Rating offered by shields remain unchanged.)

As a result of dialing back armor, some fighter only feats that will boost their effectiveness with armor and add to tactical DCs will also be included.

Wait, what? The whole point of this was to create balance between evasion characters and armored characters when it comes to epic casters and traps. Why is this getting revoked so soon?

slarden

10-14-2015, 06:17 PM

However, the most common current feedback (but certainly not the only feedback!) we get is that epic is too easy in some cases, and heroic is far too easy in most cases.

I wish you could collect better in-game data.

epics except the high level EEs are too easy because ED power is front-loaded and most people on the ETR train have their ED filled. Epic doesn't scale well in general.

When I ran through EE orchard recently one of the most vocal complainers about the game being too easy on Sarlona died 4 times within a few minutes and rage quit. I think part of the problem is alot of people take the path of least resistance on ETR and barely run the difficult content. Of course the game is too easy for them.

I think EE should scale from 3-6 instead of 1-4 people and that would probably add enough difficulty the high level EEs. Making enemies simply hit much harder is not the right answer.

RD2play

10-14-2015, 06:17 PM

Greetings.

Ten Thousand Stars
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 30 seconds you add your Wisdom ability score to your Ranged Power and you add your monk level * 5 to your Doubleshot. This ability puts Manyshot on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 1 minute.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

Sev~

Note, for a halfling monkcher with 12 monk levels using AA tier 5 the actual number is 29% and thats only at level 28.
Ship, quiver, EPL and epic feat.

That would mean 29+ 12*5 = 89% so not even a full extra arrow !

maybe turn RP and DS around in 10k or take a look at the 5*monk level part, maybe change to 40%+monk*3

it would push this exsample to 29+ 40+ 12*3 = 105%

Matadorz

10-14-2015, 06:21 PM

In a nutshell... So you are nerfing the builds that are doing good in the game to enhance the gaming experience of other players that feel somehow uncomfortable with those builds?

And in the process affecting and probably destroying countless hours of character building for everyone else.

Way to go...

Vargouille

10-14-2015, 06:22 PM

4 Feats for a viable Trip? {There's a reason hardly anyone takes Improved Trip!}.

4 MUST HAVE Feats for a class that has the least Healing potential in the game?

We don't expect you to take eight new feats. They are options.

Frankly, I personally only expect someone going for a sort of theme build to take all four Tactics feats. I'd be strongly tempted to take the +6 and +8 feats, but after that I'm probably landing 95% of time on not just low-save monsters (usually Fortitude, for Stunning Blow), but probably managing to get pretty high chances even against monsters with strong Fort saves. That's not taking into account using other feats vs. other saves, etc.

Maybe there's some crazy non-Strength Fighter Build that will want all four Tactics feats to keep DCs up, but that's just a new build that probably couldn't get viable tactics before. That would be great.

For the armor feats, it is obviously helpful to maximize defenses as much as possible, but in this case we do explicitly expect players to make a lot of tradeoffs and decide what they want. We aren't autogranting these feats because you shouldn't need them - but they can help a lot. Do they help more than your other feat choices? Maybe!

Don't forget each weapon focus feat gives stacking Melee Power even though players doesn't use specific(ex> slashing weapon & slashing focus) focus for their weapon.

So, if you have weapon focus : slashing, piercing, bludgeoning, ranged, thrown weapon at once,
you will have stacking 10 melee power, it's obviously a bug. And some pally & barb using this exploit.

These are not bugs. These were very explicitly changed to improve the value of these feats, and Fighters who may be looking for small bonuses with their 12th or 15th or whatever feat options they have.
Ranged and Thrown of course give Ranged Power.

Depending on how this plays out, the diversity we have now will be gone once these changes go live. So we will be losing diversity. Ranged combat will totally be useless except Mechanic (AA hasn't been released yet). The changes to 10k and MS are heavy handed, as the poster who put the numbers up showed. Without the burst damage, non-mechanics will be further behind melee than they already are.

We disagree strongly. The only majorly impacted ranged build would be those dependent on Holy Sword.

Monkchers should still be fine.
Arcane Archers should still be as fine, regardless of the state current AA work. (Not sure why you assume AA won't be out until after these changes.)
What other ranged combatants do you think are just going to be "gone"?

10k and Manyshot still give pretty massive burst damage, with greatly increased sustain available for most builds, if only in the form of doubleshot. Plenty of players have posted their existing builds with 50%+ Doubleshot (sometimes much higher). Especially for Manyshot builds, removing the Doubleshot penalty is a large DPS increase for those builds.

redoubt

10-14-2015, 06:27 PM

In todays video you comment on the fighter feats. You said you want to keep them fighter only because you think opening them up to everyone would just make them "something everyone felt they had to take" (or close to those words I hope.)

If that is a concern, then one of two things is happening:

1. The feats are too good and should be removed (not implemented)

2. Something is wrong with tactical DCs and/or PRR/MRR that makes these feats that needed.

I've said before I feel like DDO is chasing its tail with some of these changes. Why not roll them out slower? You talk about wanting to see how things affect the "ecosystem" but when you drop all this at once you will have no way to tell what is the actual root of an observed change.

I would say that you should pick a few things that are not used on the same build and see what you get. For example:

1. Holy Sword change. This affects TWF, S&B and ranged. Put this in and don't touch anything else on those builds/styles and then observe how it affects them.

2. Dial back warlock. This only affects warlock. Put it in and observe.

Don't change anything else. Then, if after observation, you determine you need to do more, do a couple more targeted "adjustments".

I think your total plan approach and putting out for us to see is good. Do that so that people know what you are considering and then as you roll out the adjustments in a phased manner players have options:

1. Based on seeing the total possible changes, move their characters early to something else and not waste time on something they think might be nerfed.

2. Play the smaller adjustments as they come and evaluate how they feel about them.

I truly appreciate your communication with us here and with things like the today's video, but I still believe rolling this out all at once would be a mistake and not provide any truly valuable data as a result. There is just too much to know what is actually having specific affects.

mikarddo

10-14-2015, 06:28 PM

TakeItToTheLimit

10-14-2015, 06:30 PM

I have never understood why players rave about throwing weapons (like shuriken) here. As a PnP player of many years, I have never seen anybody carry more than one throwing weapon. Throwing weapons are for lobbing at the enemy as you wade in. If you are going to engage in a missile battle, you use a bow. Why does that not happen here?

Then I realised - RANGE!

Throwing weapons are short range weapons - or should be! Spells have limited ranges so the logic is already present in the game so why are throwing weapons not also restricted - say to the range of a Magic Missile?

Returning throwers also need time to return - there should be a cooldown on returning throwing weapons. Returning throwers make sense for characters who are going to lob one or two shots only prior to melee. If you are going to spam the field, a single returning weapon won't be enough and you will need a bagful...which brings me nicely to bows.

If you want to limit bows, there is a very simple mechanic that could work here too - think logistics!. Abolish conjured and returning ammunition!
Being able to spam 150 shots in a minute is all well and good but how are you going to carry all those arrows? Quivers should be reduced in capacity to 100 arrows and regular inventory slots to 20

I personally would rather see a massive increase (a ranger with a long bow should be doing comparable damage to a barbarian with a greatsword) in missile weapon damage PER SHOT at the expense of rates of fire and ammunition carriage.

blerkington

10-14-2015, 06:31 PM

We disagree strongly. The only majorly impacted ranged build would be those dependent on Holy Sword.

Monkchers should still be fine.
Arcane Archers should still be as fine, regardless of the state current AA work. (Not sure why you assume AA won't be out until after these changes.)
What other ranged combatants do you think are just going to be "gone"?

10k and Manyshot still give pretty massive burst damage, with greatly increased sustain available for most builds, if only in the form of doubleshot. Plenty of players have posted their existing builds with 50%+ Doubleshot (sometimes much higher). Especially for Manyshot builds, removing the Doubleshot penalty is a large DPS increase for those builds.

Hi,

So what about the role of a higher RoF from the existing version of manyshot? The larger number of arrows leads to more on hit chances for things like mortal fear, from arrow imbues, ED effects and helps with charging certain ED powers.

Your changes make things worse for burst archery builds and melee/ranged hybrids. For melee/ranged hybrids, like the classic ranger, sustained damage with a bow is quite unimportant. So please stop repeating these claims that what you are proposing is better for everyone, because it obviously isn't. It is only a partial solution at best.

If you can refute what I'm saying here then go right ahead, because it seems to me like you and your colleagues have made no effort to address this problem and have been studiously avoiding any discussion of it. And if you can show us, the people who believe you are hurting our builds, that we are better off, I will be the first to thank you.

Thanks.

redoubt

10-14-2015, 06:32 PM

Gratch

10-14-2015, 06:33 PM

Hmmm... I guess this may be an actual useful 3x epic past life feat now? http://ddowiki.com/page/Double_Shot

Especially with fewer procs from manyshot/10k giving less advantage to Colors of the Queen as the selection.

These proc reduction changes also seem to even further kill off Shiradi as an epic ranged destiny. Will there be a rebalancing of ED's at some point once the weapon-damage heroic PRE's and system balancing is done?

Zavier

10-14-2015, 06:34 PM

I did want to say in regard to those who feel we are overly weighing forum-only feedback on this issue that we are, and will continue to be, getting feedback from many sources, including those outside of the forums. While this forum thread is one of the largest and most vocal places we are getting feedback, it is by no means the only place we are listening.

I really have no clue as to how Turbine does anything ( unless it involves a Magic 8 ball or Pacman larping ) but it is a real shame you guys couldn't have invested some energy in analzying play time, stable of characters, and characters lives ( you know because once upon a time multiple TR lives actually meant something, that it is until you all turned the game into the TR merrygoround) long before the sad sad PC.

Point being, many quality players I used to know on Sarlona never posted on the forums and basically had nothing to do with Turbine but log in. Yet, their depth of game knowledge and mechanics were astounding. Those are the folks you guys should have tapped into a long long time ago. Sadly, 90% of them are gone.

Turbine a day late and a dollar short...yet again.

slarden

10-14-2015, 06:34 PM

Obviously what used to be the best weapon choice is no longer the best weapon choice. It would go a long way if Turbine provides some way to exchange our thunderforged weapons so all that work isn't invalidated.

Is this something you will consider?

A simple example- today shortsword and rapier have the same crit profiles for a swashbuckler. After this change rapier will be better. It would be nice if we can re-make our weapons.

patang01

10-14-2015, 06:41 PM

I hear you. This was a longstanding bug, as in probably years old, but it was acceptable in the past when Artificers and Rogue Mechanics were both relatively weak performers. However now that Rogue Mechanics are overperforming I guess it is considered a priority. Alas but this means that your Artificer, who was indeed already low on the DPS totem pole, gets knocked a few pegs lower. It won't be a competitive class until after it gets its enhancement pass sometime in 2016. If you want to feel powerful again you might try Rogue Mechanic, or if you haven't done any Ranger Past Lives yet now would be a great time as that adds +2 ranged damage as a passive bonus (stacking up to 3 times) and Ranger is in a pretty good spot right now. Then you'll be even better when Artificer is brought up to par in the future.

Arti's need a better destiny, not more enhancements. They do fine in Heroic...they trail behind more and more in Epic since their primary source of damage are run arms and repeaters but everything else falls behind in utility. There simply is no destiny that has a good synergy with them. Particularly with rune arms other then electric and force.

redoubt

10-14-2015, 06:46 PM

Monkchers should still be fine.
Arcane Archers should still be as fine, regardless of the state current AA work. (Not sure why you assume AA won't be out until after these changes.)
What other ranged combatants do you think are just going to be "gone"?

10k and Manyshot still give pretty massive burst damage, with greatly increased sustain available for most builds, if only in the form of doubleshot. Plenty of players have posted their existing builds with 50%+ Doubleshot (sometimes much higher). Especially for Manyshot builds, removing the Doubleshot penalty is a large DPS increase for those builds.

This is where I feel you don't know how we are playing in game, every archer I know falls into one of two categories:

1. Built for manyshot (and 10k) with zero effort put into doubleshot. These are burst dps builds.
2. Ignores manyshot, 10k and being a burst dps build. These builds push for doubleshot.

While it may be true that you see "plenty of players" with doubleshot, are you considering that they don't bother with manyshot and 10k? For these builds, your proposal will be a buff because they will start using manyshot now that there is no penalty to DS. Builds that went for burst will see their burst dps decrease significantly and find that doing things like recharging adrenaline are much more difficult. These builds will require significant restructuring and regearing.

Also consider the best doubleshot item comes with -50 concentration, so that still does not mix well with 10k stars builds.

Bottom line, you have it backwards. The buff is to the builds that don't use manyshot, the builds that already use manyshot are taking a nerf.

redoubt

10-14-2015, 06:47 PM

dunklezhan

10-14-2015, 06:49 PM

Hi,

So what about the role of a higher RoF from the existing version of manyshot? The larger number of arrows leads to more on hit chances for things like mortal fear, from arrow imbues, ED effects and helps with charging certain ED powers.

Your changes make things worse for burst archery builds and melee/ranged hybrids. For melee/ranged hybrids, like the classic ranger, sustained damage with a bow is quite unimportant. So please stop repeating these claims that what you are proposing is better for everyone, because it obviously isn't. It is only a partial solution at best.

If you can refute what I'm saying here then go right ahead, because it seems to me like you and your colleagues have made no effort to address this problem and have been studiously avoiding any discussion of it. And if you can show us, the people who believe you are hurting our builds, that we are better off, I will be the first to thank you.

Thanks.

I wouldn't phrase it in the same tone Blerk's post, but I think the point is well made that fewer arrows DOES mean a lower number of on crit, on hit, and chance on hit effect procs, and that is a large part of the attractiveness of those high bursts periods for manyshot/10K stars.

I would be interested in seeing a dev response to that specific point as I don't think I've seen one here or in the AA thread. Is that loss factored into the balance changes in terms of overall damage output? I'm not sure the temporary loss of doubleshot really is worth the loss of DPS when you start thinking of it this way, certainly my heroic archers aren't getting the kind of standing doubleshot figures you're talking about expecting people to have and the 'flurry' type figures I see on lootgen bows aren't enough to warrant using them over bows that just have another damage effect on them.

EDIT: that should say 'loss of temporary doubleshot penalty'. Don't know what happened there.

FestusHood

10-14-2015, 06:49 PM

biggest loser: Forester Brush Hook in DC
* currently 11-20x4
* postpatch 15-20x4

This is exactly the kind of thing that most needed fixing. 15-20x4 is still a monster crit profile. Be honest, does 11-20x4 really seem ok to you?

Vargouille

10-14-2015, 06:52 PM

Regarding the new fighter feats:

The first feats in each "line" are nothing but noob traps. They sound like they are good, but in practice they should be ignored until you get higher level so you can take the higher tier ones instead.
Yes. We expect that to be true for characters who take 16+ levels of Fighter.

It's very likely that you will end up in a position where you cannot fit every feat of the line, and if you have taken a lower tier one you will just be straight up better off if you never had taken in in the first place. It feels pretty awkward, and for no real reason.

Fighter remains an excellent splash class. There are many, many characters with between 2-12 levels of Fighter, who cannot take the final, strongest form of these feats (available with 14 or 16 Fighter levels).

You seem to have accurately judged how we expect these feats to work for pure Fighters. We are always trying to build for all builds - especially the ones no one is thinking of, if we can!

I hope you are not basing this on kobold DPS tests. I have the feeling that THF is still very strong against groups or enemies. TWF should stay ahead for single targets. You already nerfed TWF Paladins and I think that THF barbs are quite common. In the end you remove Power from some builds that are definitely not OP, like Monks or TWF bards.

It would be wrong to say we're basing balance solely on single-target DPS tests. It would be wrong to say we ignore that data, as well.

We know that many, many melee players spend most of their time with groups of monsters around them and cleaving. We're hoping to get better testing grounds for both us and players (it's easier for us with cheaty admin tools, of course) - including against multiple "trash" monsters, bosses, champions, etc.

On the wiki (http://ddowiki.com/page/PRR) it says that you get some PRR for wearing armor, and more PRR if you are proficient with it. If this is true, are we losing PRR from the proposed changes?
Yes. The proposal is the entirely of the PRR you will get. So a pure Paladin at level 28, with 24 BAB, would get 48 PRR. (56 if they are using anything that gives full BAB, such as Divine Crusader or some other Tenser's-like effect.)

The crit range change appears to me, and it seems to many others, to be the worst thought out part. Many weapons : Sireth, Drow weapons, (E)SOS and innumerable heroic weapons (there's a decent list here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/425378)) are special BECAUSE of their expanded crit range.
Each of them will still have a stronger critical profile (chance or damage multiplier) than other weapons. These just won't be twice as special.

dunklezhan

10-14-2015, 06:52 PM

Arti's need a better destiny, not more enhancements. They do fine in Heroic...they trail behind more and more in Epic since their primary source of damage are run arms and repeaters but everything else falls behind in utility. There simply is no destiny that has a good synergy with them. Particularly with rune arms other then electric and force.

Yes. Though their ranged DPS actually plateaus by about L15 in my experience (changes to the +W values for higher value lootgen have helped somewhat with this). Since thats the point their heightened DCs start to top out as well, I'd say they could use something to keep their ranged side 'advancing' in the last few levels. Epics is a whole other thing I am not remotely qualified to talk about.

mikarddo

10-14-2015, 06:59 PM

I wouldn't phrase it in the same tone Blerk's post, but I think the point is well made that fewer arrows DOES mean a lower number of on crit, on hit, and chance on hit effect procs, and that is a large part of the attractiveness of those high bursts periods for manyshot/10K stars.

I would be interested in seeing a dev response to that specific point as I don't think I've seen one here or in the AA thread. Is that loss factored into the balance changes in terms of overall damage output? I'm not sure the temporary loss of doubleshot really is worth the loss of DPS when you start thinking of it this way, certainly my heroic archers aren't getting the kind of standing doubleshot figures you're talking about expecting people to have and the 'flurry' type figures I see on lootgen bows aren't enough to warrant using them over bows that just have another damage effect on them.

Thats exactly the key part of the changes to archers that needs a dev reply. Overall it looks like my monkcher is down 25% arrows meaning fewer mortal fear procs and fewer adrenalines in particular. Normal damage looks about the same but thats not the key issue at all.

We badly need a dev reply to this.

Blastyswa

10-14-2015, 07:05 PM

I did want to say in regard to those who feel we are overly weighing forum-only feedback on this issue that we are, and will continue to be, getting feedback from many sources, including those outside of the forums. While this forum thread is one of the largest and most vocal places we are getting feedback, it is by no means the only place we are listening.

The question is, are the developers actually getting a good representation of the entire population of the game? Anything where people are responding based on their own decision to do so or where they are selected because of already being vocal can not be applied to the entire population. Unless the overwhelming feedback is being received from random samplings of all players of DDO, any data gathered can not be applied to the entire population. The statement would look like "Based on our data, a vast majority of the most vocal players on fan sites, the forum, and the players council, (or any other source that isn't random selection) feel the game is lacking in difficulty." This would be a horrible misrepresentation of data, as the correct statement to actually merit these changes would be (truthfully) being able to say "Based on the feedback we've received from random samplings of the general populace of all DDO players, an overwhelming number feel that the game is lacking in difficulty." The difference between these two sampling methods is huge, as one of them I can get on board with more (while I would still be against the idea, numbers trumps logic).

Blastyswa

10-14-2015, 07:12 PM

Monkchers should still be fine.
Arcane Archers should still be as fine, regardless of the state current AA work. (Not sure why you assume AA won't be out until after these changes.)
What other ranged combatants do you think are just going to be "gone"?

The main thing I want to respond to is the third one on the list, but I quoted the rest so that I can't be blamed for misrepresentation of a statement. The main question is, why are paladin archers being viewed as some type of super bowman? (crossbow or long bow) The bonuses granted in critical profiles to a holy sword archer are equal to that which will be granted to a pure ranger (or a 18 ranger, but for the purpose of my argument, pure). In addition, a pure ranger will have substantially more doubleshot (zeal doesn't apply to doubleshot) and the upcoming increased power elemental arrows. Rogues are currently looking at either similar critical profiles while pure with repeating crossbows (3x hits) while a great crossbow will have +2 multiplier, using Leverage or a similar Great Crossbow, in the new crit profile system with holy sword vs. pure rogue it would be 13-20x3 vs. 15-20x4. This puts crit amounts (100% per doubling, x3 is 200%, x4 is 300%) at 16 for holy sword and 18 for rogue, putting rogue DPS ahead of paladin anyway.

A lot of the recent changes have opened up more build options; this one is not as overpowering as it is being made out to be, and does not need to be removed.

FestusHood

10-14-2015, 07:13 PM

Eryhn

10-14-2015, 07:20 PM

i still have to mull over a lot of details and implications this grand sweep entails, but the initial gut feel is that it is quite simply too grand a sweed aimed at too many flies at once, and thus while solving or improving a number of things, likewise makes a considerable amount of things less good or plain worse. this may well be because there are too many goals you intend to fullfill with this at once.

a) changes to keen and improved crit
generally a long overdue and welcome thing to deal with but while it succeeds in generally getting you out of the crit corner you been stuck in for quite a while now, at the same time it would probably result in some undesired effects as well that have already been mentioned by many posters already: as suggested now, this will most like NOT encourage build diversity. people will most likely build for the few weapons that come out slightly better on the crit enhance, and the experienced players that so far ran the 11-20 critzillas will instead switch to running as OP builds that instead are built around specific high crit multi weapons not so easily available to newer first life players. at the same time, weapon choices for the grand mass of players remain limited if striving for somewhat acceptable dps builds on non-uber life toons.

-> this may be averted to giving a closer look to your +1 +2 +3 scales and which weapons they apply to.

b)slight TWF nerf via loss of MP
while the effects are not as large as the crit changes, and it succeeds in adequately nerfing some very few niche high dps builds, it also further limits some more flavor and fun based TWF builds that were barely keeping up in the first place. if you inded changed the animation speed, i will gladly take this as potentially making up for the wonky hitbox issue, but thats that. the MP decreasee coupled with the IC changes seems overshooting the desired effect. in light of the fact that holy sword is getting changes either way, and a TWF class pass was just recently done,

-> the solution should be sought there rather than in feats that impact all classes and builds.

c) MRR loss on armors
I have nothing against the general gist of armor up slightly overshot the mark and thus needing re-adjustment, but taking it out this substantially seems rather crude. once again, the people least affected are multi lifers that can compensate via past lives and specific gear and dedicated building. the nerf unproportionally applies to the larger part of the player base that can all but tiredly smile at the notion of EE being "too easy"

-> a middle ground between evasion one the one hand and full turtle on the other should be achievable and should most certainly be retained in favour of build diversity remaining available to less ambitious players, too

edit: I should add that after the recent revenue stroke of brilliance with the tomes, across the board nerf to MRR after release of MRR past life p2p class leaves a slightly questionable aftertaste. were locks so controversial that you did not sell enough maybe?

d)the notion of fixing heroic power creep and lv20-25 older epic power creep at the same time

in one fell swoop is as ambitious as overly short sighted. I dare say it cannot be done unless other things get broken as a result.

in light of the fact that new epics, as well as the new heroics offer an adequate challenge at level, the top 2% of playerbase excluded, you should abandon the naive attempt to fix the fact that old heroics have long been outclassed by newer classes and enhancements and the lowert epics been somewhat trivialized by maxed out EDs.

you should rather consider going through the sadly painstaking but needed work of redoing difficulty levels of older content, bit by bit, IF you care (and if you were to do that, say 1 old heroic quest pack per future update, if time permiting, might as well throw in the bonus of in the process finishing the half way through abandoned heroic named loot pass - THAT would certainly get you points :P)
however, should that be asked too much with the current ressources available, resign yourself to the fact that old heroics are no matter of concern or challenge to everybody other than completely new first life players.

champions in any case did "something" towards penalizing blindly charging in without a plan on non optimized builds, that way, at least for some people getting some little tension back into elite heroics and lower epics and encouraging playing to your strengths and being mindful or your weaknesses unless you have the past lives and gear to just shrug it off. that is some progress achieved already so be contend with that or bring in the work it needs to make older heroics meanigful and bring the 20-25 epics up to speed.

e) lastly, worst contenders
- im no expert on the numbers but rogue mechanics seem to come out uncannily far ahead in dps if implemented as is
- warlock changes as proposed dial down heroic and epic dps at same time, thereby doing a "little bit" for less OP in heroics while taking the lacking red name dps in epic down further - allt he while, the worst contender in both epics and heroics seems to be the aoe aura builds rather than chain cone or blast and precisley that remains untouched.
-staffs get the short end of their stick, literally
-unarmed monks look as meek, though i admit i am no expert on either
-as mentioned, the armor changes impact classes like cleric and fvs far more severly than some arcane that can make do with going back to an evasion split

i actually kinda like
-the way you concieved the stacking and optional nature of the fighter feats, that offers many options for fighter split tinkering (though I daresay it strongly devalues splicing 2 fighter over splicing in 6 fighter, but maybe thats intended ...)
- i rly like that you do put in the effort of balancing stuff across the board at all - but i think it rly needs a more concise set of objectives and some more consideration of some specific fallouts ya might have overlooked ...
- and like, i domnt have any quarrel with the divine grace adjustment, either...

edit2:
no matter what adjustements are made to your current proposal:
+X hearts of wood sound compelling ...
(if it feels like impacting sales too much, take a leaf out of your new mabar loot and make them self destruct come new year if not used till then)
deconstruction for thunderforged with some mats gained back like with GS or Estar challenges likewise sounds like a gesture of decency ...

FestusHood

10-14-2015, 07:26 PM

Off topic here, but related to the Stream...

The comments/questions about Hide armor is that there is no random loot Hide armor in the game anymore. There are only a few old quest chains that drop +1 enhanced BtA versions as quest rewards. Same goes for Padded armor and Studded Leather armor as well.

All of those armor types are still available for sale in their base form in the ball and chain in the harbor.

Vargouille

10-14-2015, 07:27 PM

I ll try to do a viable AA with the new patch, because i really like the new AA enhancements, BUT the manyshot/10k star "rework" (to not say ultra mega nerf) looks like to force peoples to have at least 12 monks lvl or more, or to get the capstone as ranger.It s the end of the 6 monk 6 ranger 8 fighter or rogue or artificer or whatever you want. I ll really try cause i love this game, i love my character, i love AA.... but If it s horrible and I see that they destroyed 4 years of work to get TF bow, shuriken, epic outfit, epic bows ect... i ll just leave the game for sure.

We think this should still be a viable build, and certainly want it to be a viable build. It's true that Ten-Thousand Stars would be strong for someone with more monk levels.

IIRC, MS DS penalty is 70 seconds, which includes 20 sec. MS duration. So 20 secs MS, 50 secs no Doubleshot, 50 secs regular Doubleshot.

10K DS penalty is 45 secs.

I believe this is correct. For both of these the original intent was that half of the cooldown period (not counting the active period) had the penalty.

Correct me if I am wrong but it appears that the new change to Manyshot will now benefit Throwers as it now changes the Doubleshot instead stating arrows. If this is so my Shuriken Thrower will need to now add the Manyshot feat.

The restrictions for Manyshot and Ten-Thousand Stars are currently expected to remain the same (bow or shurikens or bow+zen archery, etc.)

First off, I am opposed to most of the changes. You, being the developers, have not listened like you say you do to players. You might have listened to some players, players council, and a few others in Turbine, but you couldn't possibly have come to a legitimate consensus regarding the "player base".

We love getting more and better feedback, and there are some interesting ideas in this post (some requiring quite a bit of tech/work to create, but not without value in doing so).

That said, I'm not sure how many issues the "player base" could ever come to a single consensus on!

Do you really think the PRR/MRR removal for armor increases our options?!?!?!

Do you really think a barb on the front line can survive with a full second delay on the (on-kill) healing proc?!?! ?!

Do you think reducing DPS will enhance our game experience?!?!

Yes. To all of these questions. All of these are fiddly numbers which are neither inherently better higher or lower.

Another perspective would be to flip each of these: Does adding PRR/MRR to all armor automatically make DDO better or "increase options"? If barbarians didn't take damage and never needed healing would it be a better game? Does increasing DPS automatically enhance the game experience?

Every one of these questions is about finding the right spot across a gray scale. Getting the exact right answer is always going to be quite difficult. Getting a group of people (developers, players, both) to agree on the exact right answer verges on impossible, so we can only do the best we can.

PsychoBlonde

10-14-2015, 07:30 PM

That might be true in some content. But in most Epic Elites, "Basic Armor" offers nothing. I have a 76% defense chance "At Level". Sounds great. Except i never fight anything "at level" in an epic elite. Everything these days is level 65+. This renders my "Defense Chance" to like nothing and now im solely reliant on my PRR. Which even with 75% damage reduction from PRR im still being hammered for 350 damage by trash mobs. It is WAY better to simply not be hit than it is to try to soak the damage.

This has only started happening lately in level 30+ quests after they re-did the scaling. I seriously think they broke how PRR works in there, because when I run, say, TOEE with guildies, EVERYONE is getting hit for 350+ damage from mobs regardless of their wildly different PRR levels. If PRR was working properly this would NOT be the case--if the ultra-tank with 75% reduction is taking 350 damage, then the squishy in the party with 25% reduction should be taking 1050 damage hits. I have yet to see anyone get hit for 1050 damage on a basic hit--some of the people I play with would be getting one-shot every single time they get hit. That'd be insane. They borked up the new scaling somehow, which also explains why human cultists and archers are far nastier enemies than gigantic devils! If Joe Schmoe the cultist is harder to stun than an orthon, something be messed up, yo.

redoubt

10-14-2015, 07:32 PM

Every one of these questions is about finding the right spot across a gray scale. Getting the exact right answer is always going to be quite difficult. Getting a group of people (developers, players, both) to agree on the exact right answer verges on impossible, so we can only do the best we can.

True.

My question becomes how do you know what is working when you change so much at once?

nomadicc

10-14-2015, 07:33 PM

The weapons in question will continue to have a wider crit range than their normal counterparts, so while they may have a somewhat more smaller range than before, they will continue to offer a wider crit range than the item type would otherwise.

I know this has been brought up by several others, but I'd like to add my voice to the mob. The IC changes are a 1-for-1 swap for normal weapons, but this change will *specifically de-value* those rare/sought-after expanded crit range weapons that I and many others have spent hours collecting.

ESOS, several Tome of Legend choices, Silver Longbow are all affected, but I think quarterstaves are getting the biggest hit. Theurgic Staff, Breeze, Bone Crusher, Sireth... I don't think anyone was accusing staffers of over-performing. No one uses normal random-drop q-staffs. To be effective, you need one of these named items, and even then they are basically on-par with an average greatsword. Now they will be mathematically inferior. I think this will drive people away from clever builds using rare/odd weapons and into vanilla crit-fisher builds with rapiers, scimitars, khopeshes and falchions.

I humbly ask that you re-consider this impact of the IC change. Perhaps a bonus based on the weapon's existing crit range rather than weapon type. For example, all 20s get +1, all 19-20s get +2, etc., regardless of what kind of weapon (sword, staff, bow).

PsychoBlonde

10-14-2015, 07:39 PM

Another perspective would be to flip each of these: Does adding PRR/MRR to all armor automatically make DDO better or "increase options"? If barbarians didn't take damage and never needed healing would it be a better game? Does increasing DPS automatically enhance the game experience?

I find the claim that it'd be impossible for barbs to survive with a 1 second cooldown on Blood Rage to be kind of funny given that they used to survive with no Blood Rage whatsoever. Maybe, I dunno, don't just stand around in the middle of a group of enemies flailing away?

I'd suggest increasing the max absorption on Protection from Elements, though. Why it caps at 120 now is beyond me.

FestusHood

10-14-2015, 07:46 PM

In the Wednesday video you talk about:

People enjoy heavy armor and high PRR because they can "wade into battle". I think this is true.

Then you discuss mages in heavy armor as part of the problem for balance. You fixing the bug where they get full benefit while not proficient. That is where you should stop for now. If someone spends the feats or splashes into a proficient class AND buys down the ASF, then they should get those benefits. Run with that for a while. Drop the PRR/MRR nerfs and see where we land.

If you want to discuss Vanguard Paladins, I am on my 3rd go around of such a character. Intimidate is not enough to hold agro. You need really good dps or the mobs will be pulled off of you, so losing the shield holy sword affect will require us to invest in more dps which will come at a price elsewhere. Losing PRR and MRR have the same affect in that we have to find a way to make up for it. Sure in heroic it not a big deal, but even going into EH raids my vanguard could not completely self heal; I say this to illustrate that the defense of a vanguard is not impervious. I think paladin healing is good, but I don't think Vanguards were the part that needed fixing, but they are taking two big hits (holy sword and PRR/MRR reduction.)

Holding agro while tanking is about threat more than naked dps. Consider that all those players who are pulling agro from you will also be doing less dps now, and generally to a greater degree than sword and board toons.

Vanguards are not really tanks. They are more of a hybrid between a tank and a dps toon. I had my tank respecced on one of his etr's into a vanguard instead of a defender. I knew i would give up defense and threat, while gaining dps. If you are using a shield, you will still have a lot of magical defense. You may actually have to heal from magic attacks after the changes.

PsychoBlonde

10-14-2015, 07:49 PM

I humbly ask that you re-consider this impact of the IC change. Perhaps a bonus based on the weapon's existing crit range rather than weapon type. For example, all 20s get +1, all 19-20s get +2, etc., regardless of what kind of weapon (sword, staff, bow).

This would unleash a dependency nightmare that would create an ocean of item-specific bugs when certain bonuses affecting crit range were getting wrongly applied before or after the "appropriate bonus" was determined.

A much better solution would be to simply add a unique level of Keen to those weapons that sets the expanded crit range and makes it independent of the not-stacking Improved Critical feat. This might even be an improvement for some because they could simply skip taking the Improved Crit feat altogether. They could spend the feat on something else.

Or they could make Keen and the Improved Crit feat stack. It wouldn't fix those weapons, but it'd make different weapons much more valuable.

nomadicc

10-14-2015, 07:51 PM

Each of them will still have a stronger critical profile (chance or damage multiplier) than other weapons. These just won't be twice as special.

Yes, but... some of those expanded crit profiles were the only reason one would use those weapons (excluding "flavor" builds), because it brought them up on par with average martial weapons. Now that incentive is minimized.

Example:

Theurgic Staff: 1.50[2d4]+4 / 19-20 x2
Rando +4 Greatsword: 1d10+4 / 19-20 x2

... before IC, they are nearly equivalent, and I felt pretty good using my rogue/monk staffy next to a paladin and his gs.

After IC, this becomes...
Thuergic Staff: 18-20 x2
Rando GS: 17-20 x2

So, the rare item I suffered through Threnal and Coyle for, which was on par until me and my buddy took IC, is now clearly inferior to his rando drop weapon.

This is what I was getting at in my previous post. Yes, named expanded crit range weapons are better than their average kin. But for some of them, quarterstaves in particular, that only just made them playable!

As I said, this change will specifically de-values rare and hard-to-get weapons that I have spent many hours trying to acquire, while the random basic weapons stay as good (or bad) as they ever were.

Bennum

10-14-2015, 07:52 PM

Waylayer

10-14-2015, 07:55 PM

~Snip

Yes. The proposal is the entirely of the PRR you will get. So a pure Paladin at level 28, with 24 BAB, would get 48 PRR. (56 if they are using anything that gives full BAB, such as Divine Crusader or some other Tenser's-like effect.)

~Snip

Aren't Pally's full BAB classes?

redoubt

10-14-2015, 07:56 PM

Holding agro while tanking is about threat more than naked dps. Consider that all those players who are pulling agro from you will also be doing less dps now, and generally to a greater degree than sword and board toons.

Vanguards are not really tanks. They are more of a hybrid between a tank and a dps toon. I had my tank respecced on one of his etr's into a vanguard instead of a defender. I knew i would give up defense and threat, while gaining dps. If you are using a shield, you will still have a lot of magical defense. You may actually have to heal from magic attacks after the changes.

I don't know where you get that vanguards are not tanks. Do you think that the defender tree is? Sure it has more defense and threat gen in it, but without picking up more offense from vanguard, you don't hold agro. Vanguard makes great sense as a tank. In addition to vanguard I put a few points into kotc for some damage and the rest in SD for defense and threat gen.

As for MRR, go tank a dragon without it. 8)

hunzi2010

10-14-2015, 07:57 PM

I have said it before and I will say it again, The majority of the player community doesn't come to the forums or go to Lamania.
If your going to impose suck a big nerf across the game and want to see what players think I believe as a customer service solution when players log in advise them that they need to fill out what they like and what the hate in the game.
what they want to see changed.
and promote the website, as a lot of people don't come here.
once you submit a small questionnaire then both devs get correct feed back rather than the same ten people complaining to nerf this nerf that cos they cant play, and also prevents honest people being able to submit their response without the trolling effect.
at this point in time where the total community is down through out all the servers I think ( and I am looking at you Cordovan) that this needs to be looked at as an idea to assist in collecting crucial data for your dev team.
Then once you have all this data you can them make an educated change to what issues your having.
It is like out of the 100% of the community 5% are always on here crying to nerf everything, then there is the 5% of people saying its too easy while the rest of the 90% suffer.
Again don't destroy what you guys have created (spent time and money developing) here, simply bring the broken and dead builds up to scratch. this is a lot more simpler solution to keep the game alive into the future.
going ahead with these proposes will defiantly run the risk of reducing the community.
Thanks.

nomadicc

10-14-2015, 07:57 PM

This would unleash a dependency nightmare that would create an ocean of item-specific bugs when certain bonuses affecting crit range were getting wrongly applied before or after the "appropriate bonus" was determined.

A much better solution would be to simply add a unique level of Keen to those weapons that sets the expanded crit range and makes it independent of the not-stacking Improved Critical feat. This might even be an improvement for some because they could simply skip taking the Improved Crit feat altogether. They could spend the feat on something else.

Or they could make Keen and the Improved Crit feat stack. It wouldn't fix those weapons, but it'd make different weapons much more valuable.

Yeah, I don't want to get into the programming side of it, for obvious reasons. We can only hope that this change doesn't open a Pandora's Box of other, unforseen bugs and exploits.

I like your idea... add a property to those rare, expanded crit range weapons that gives a stacking +1 crit range and move on. I think IC giving all weapons a straight +2 wouldn't be bad either... it would bring up some of otherwise-worthless 20 crit weapons, while not over-bloating the 18-20 crowd. I'm sure scimitar and rapier users would scream bloody murder tho.

Better yet... remove IC as it is and put in a chain of 3 critical feats (like "critical mastery", "improved critical mastery" and greater), stacking +1 and x0.5 multiplier for each taken. All weapons get better on a (mostly) even scale.

redoubt

10-14-2015, 08:00 PM

I'm sure scimitar and rapier users would scream bloody murder tho.

Yes, because without the better crit profile, there is NO reason to use those weapons.

firebones

10-14-2015, 08:04 PM

Too much, too fast, too soon. Looks like I need to find a new game.

Zistra

10-14-2015, 08:06 PM

Aren't Pally's full BAB classes?

Epic levels only grant .5 BAB per level. Thus a "Full BAB" class has 24 BAB at L28. However, there's no such limit on a Tenser's scroll, so it will scale right up to 28 BAB.

Snarglefrump

10-14-2015, 08:08 PM

We expect that to be true for characters who take 16+ levels of Fighter.

If fighters only want to spend 1 feat on it, it kind of sucks to make them wait until level 16 to take it. How about:

Tactics: Gain +1 to tactical DCs per 4 fighter levels rounded up. This feat can be taken more than once.

Taking the feat 4 times still adds up to a +20 bonus, and it still builds based on Fighter level, but the Fighter has much more flexibility about when to take it.

Bennum

10-14-2015, 08:09 PM

Warlocks are supposed to be a DPS toon!

Yes their AOE and Chain DPS was overscaled and needed to be pulled back - We'll see if the Devs have finally hit the mark on that.

But it was always the Self-Sufficiency that was the issue with Warlocks being OP - Glass Cannon should have been what the Devs went for but strangely enough it's the DPS that gets the nerf bat {not once but twice now - Yes Warlock DPS has already been nerfed once!}.

As for the Single Target Basic Blast - What Warlocks are relatively weak against is super high HP Mobs and Bosses - A Warlock's time to kill a boss is significantly higher than Melee Builds who get far more attacks per second!

I don't see the need to nerf the Single Target Basic Blast and on the other hand would probably buff it up a little from it's original amount.

The trade off for Chain and Cone and Aura would then be that you don't do anywhere near as much single target DPS when using them - By Nerfing the basic blast at the same time as nerfing those {strangely not the Cone?} the Devs are keeping them as being strictly better for almost all scenarios except when facing just one single enemy {the boss when all adds have been cleared!}.
Exactly my thoughts and this is how I played mine, I T5d Enlightened Spirit for awhile and hated it, I felt so cheap I switched back to being a glass cannon willingly.

Captain_Wizbang

10-14-2015, 08:13 PM

I'm not sure how many issues the "player base" could ever come to a single consensus on!

.

http://i467.photobucket.com/albums/rr40/chainmail/rollingonthefloorlaughing.gif

Bennum

10-14-2015, 08:13 PM

This is the kind of feeback DEVs should avoid. The criticals you have now with the changes are still better than what you had one year ago. And pulverizer doesn't make what you are saying, khopeshes are still better than warhammers and mauls are equal to axe now. All the worse for versatility, all hail the khopesh! And just when other weapon choices could compete too.

Captain_Wizbang

10-14-2015, 08:15 PM

Question. is this going to happen AFTER a fighter pass?

Or better yet. Will these changes happen after all the classes have been "adjusted"

redoubt

10-14-2015, 08:16 PM

Question. is this going to happen AFTER a fighter pass?

Or better yet. Will these changes happen after all the classes have been "adjusted"

Listening to the Wednesday video it sounds like these are going in 29.

nomadicc

10-14-2015, 08:21 PM

All the worse for versatility, all hail the khopesh! And just when other weapon choices could compete too.

+1

PsychoBlonde

10-14-2015, 08:27 PM

As I said, this change will specifically de-values rare and hard-to-get weapons that I have spent many hours trying to acquire, while the random basic weapons stay as good (or bad) as they ever were.

You could also say that any time they add new gear to the game, it de-values everything that existed before. Or change anything in enhancements or the class that makes some things more or less useful than they were before.

Do you have any IDEA how much I farmed to get that Epic Belt of the Mroranon, Epic Kundarak Delving Goggles, Epic Siren's Bracers and Epic Siren's Belt? None of which I use any more. "I worked hard to get something that won't be as awesome now" is a null argument. Anybody who has played the game for any length of time can say this.

PsychoBlonde

10-14-2015, 08:29 PM

Question. is this going to happen AFTER a fighter pass?

Or better yet. Will these changes happen after all the classes have been "adjusted"

It'd make more sense to make the changes before they adjust any more classes, so they can then adjust the classes with these changes in mind.

I think this has come up because the ranger pass has run them up hard against some technical problems with (among other things) crits and manyshot.

TheDr0wRanger

10-14-2015, 08:30 PM

I just want to emphasize, rearticulate and hopefully maybe inspire discussion regarding the fighter-feat arrangement that's on the table.

First off Sgt Hart is right when he says things like:

*SNIP*
I'm still saying "Fighter Level" in there is a Typo'd instance of "Character Level" And you're not going to convince me otherwise until you actually go ahead and make the mistake of implementing it as such.

The composite picture here results in something troubling. You are getting the spirit of Fighter wrong. It is "Options by way of feats." not "Exclusive feats to make it a specialist."

If I want to take 4 heavy armor combatant feat's on a pure paladin, Why in the blue hell can't I?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#fighterBonusFeats

Take special notice of:

The text string "Fighter Level" show's up three times on that document. Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization.
Now it may be a mighty slim list of characters who'd take.. Trample (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#trample) for example, But if the halfling rogue has taken Mounted Combat and a rank into riding, and really wants to do it...

*SNIPPITY*

You want to put Half values into the feats, and then have Fighter enhancements that double the effectiveness? Fine. That's Where DDO has already truly, and thoroughly divorced itself from DnD, and that's almost always in a good way. Arbitrarily inventing new fighter only feats, for the stated intent of "Fighter get's better" Is (at best) a sketchy way to do it.

*SNIPSNIP*

What I'd like is more overall feats that are missing, but DDO presently does as enhancements. Perhaps the best analogy I can give is that fighters are vanilla ice cream, but have full access to the selection of toppings. Every other class is a flavor of ice cream like rocky road, or peanut butter ripple, or Neapolitan, and allowed a topping, or two.

Because he's hitting on something you are doing very wrong, that will have long-running repercussions for the already underperforming class, and by extension the classes that stand next to it in comparison.

Making fighters take repeated, identical, underwhelming, exclusive feats to get things other classes get for free is missing everything cool about fighters. Having 18 feats and then spending between 2-4 feats on attaining the MRR needed to survive magic attacks is essentially forcing fighters to trade a disproportionate amount of their class advantage to survive and making the selection of feats a forgone conclusion. As you'll see below, I don't think its necessarily bad for fighters to be buying their goodies with feats, but the current arrangement is going to cost too much for too little and severely limit the ability of fighters to make meaningful choices. More importantly making them fighter only feats misses the point of the class entirely.

Let me explain:
Rangers get a powerful, themed set of feats and enhancements that allows them to inhabit a few roles in the game. Some of the things that make them special aren't available to anyone else, while others are simply widely-available powers that synergize with what they get for free.
Rogues get a different set of themed feats and enhancements with different roles on offer, they also have abilities exclusive to them and non-exclusives that help them maximize what they already have.

Fighters get almost no preset abilities other than proficiency with every martial weapon and armor. Instead they get 18 feats. With those 18 feats, they can select from all of those generally-available feats that help each class focus and hone it's innate power. Because fighters have no innate role they can choose, or create, whichever suits them. They can synergize abilities and maximize 1 or 2 skills, or they can generalize and be competent with everything. Sometimes a Ranger will have to choose which of two equally desirable feats complements his innate skills the best, and he must forgo the other. The advantage of the fighter, the bonus he gets in exchange for having nothing given to him for free, is that he looks at those two feats and has no problems, because he can afford both. He can take ever-so-many bow related feats and be a crazy powerful archer, maybe even better than the ranger in his own way. Or he can take fewer bow related feats and become a competent archer who also has a hammer, something beyond the ranger entirely. He can take armor and shields and toughness to survive anything or he can be simply a durable and competent swordsman, the point is that he can be whatever he wants within the confines of the feat list. Fighters are the martial-oriented protoclass. Where other classes get unique and themed powers, fighters start with nothing pre-chosen.

Fighters are not specialists, and this I think is whats being done wrong over and over. Fighters can be specialists, and in DDO it's tempting to cast them that way by providing 1 or 2 themed trees with a focus for each, because themed trees are the way every other class derives it's value. But the beauty in the fighter class is that they don't have to be anything in particular. Fighters look unexciting to new-comers to DnD, because they are just "mundane" martial soldiers. Other classes get cool things like magic and ki and psionics, why would a fighter be exciting? It's because, played right, a fighter can form frighteningly effective and occasionally exotic roles that simply could not be achieved in the more directed classes.

Practically, this means that instead of exclusive fighter feats, we should increase the number of desirable feats available to everyone at heroic level. This will offer meaningful choices across the board.. But the real power is when it starts to make the other classes wish they could take all of the feats and, crucially, not be able to. This brings up the value of fighters because now they suddenly have an array of different things they can do or be, they can attempt to compete with another class at their primary role, or they can focus on a completely new design. A completely devoted archer-fighter may outshoot rangers if hes careful, but he won't really play like them and he certainly won't be able to do everything a ranger can do, like divine healing. Chains of feats are especially good, Whirlwind Attack is somewhat underwhelming as yet, but the idea of taking 3-4 marginally useful feats like Dodge-Mobility-Spring Attack to unlock the final, very potent, feat is very productive for this idea. Fighters can afford to take Whirlwind and still have feats for other things. A tempest who builds for Whirlwind is going to be much harder pressed. Make some really cool feats for offensive and defensive use, sprinkle effective but not-optimal feats into the requirements and watch fighters matter again.

Next, the trees need consideration. Vanguard is great, offering offensive and defensive bonuses to the shield user. Stalwart is nearly perfect, it's got wonderful low-hanging fruit that any heavy-armor design could use and the higher tiers are compelling but not so much so that taking tier 4 is a waste of time if your focus lies elsewhere. Kensei has whispers of greatness, with the action boosts and DCs on offer, its a shame someone spilled monk all over it.What it needs is to have the needless thematic junk scrapped. One with the Blade is fine, but all the light-armor and PJs are better off as extra selectors on Stalwart stuff(you read that right, Stalwart with a few light-armor bonuses could be an all around defensive smorgasbord). Action-boosts burned for single attacks aren't great, how about some acceptable-but-not-great selectors for Melee Power, Ranged Power, Sneak Attack, Doubleshot and Doublestrike? Then fill out the rest with things like W bonus attacks and bonuses that magnify the effect of feats. Make the Tier 5s things like Keen Edge that are desirable for anyone with a weapon, but not strictly superior to similar bonuses in more thematic trees. Cores could allow diverse weapon bonus stats with your focus weapon, or add a second focus weapon in place of more power to the first one.

The idea is that you have an Offensive tree that makes whatever weapon you have work better, regardless of what it is and how it works. Nothing in this tree should make your jaw drop, instead everything in this tree should feel like a solid choice for the points. The same should be true of Stalwart and that might require some tweaking to make it work for other armor types, but a focus on moderate bonuses to relevant stats should be easier to do than most trees. Vanguard is there both because A. Its already there and B. It's a great option for making a straightforward and fun-to-play fighter, its got nothing that I can see greatly over-powering the class when the other trees are in line.

The better thing here is that fighters become not only the protoclass, but their levels become proto-levels too. They have full BAB, feats nearly every level and if my enhancement suggestions were followed, would bring measured bonuses to literally anything you splashed them into. A pure fighter has the tools available to excel, but doesn't stomp on as many toes because the idea is to make it so that no single ability is driving the tree.

So that was long, my point is to tell you what I think is wrong, why I think its wrong, what I think it should be like and then offer a little bit of how that might emerge. I seriously hope you guys do this right, because the current plan sounds like it's going to irrevocably alter the class.

Morroiel

10-14-2015, 08:44 PM

For single target damage the 3 main contributors are: eldritch blast (w/ lantern ring procs), consume, and stricken (though stricken is more for the debuffs it gives).

Most builds can hit 600 standing light spell power (I assume 600 because this is the low end. Anything higher than this and it will only exaggerate the nerf).
Most builds can hit 450 standing fire/acid/sonic spell power (again this is the low end).

Crit Chance Light = 5% (training) + 8% (souleater) + 22% (lore item) + 5% (insight) = 40%
Crit Chance Fire = 5% (training) + 8% (souleater) + 22% (lore item) + 5% (insight) + 9% (draconic past lives) = 49%

Crit Damage Multiplier = 2.6 (60% additive increase from tainted scholar)

Dice Damage (assuming you max out warlock and take feats and strong pact): 15d6 base (no save, light) + 14d4 pact (save for half) + 2d6 (light from greater hunger - souleater) = 17d6 (light) + 14d4 (pact)
*Assume save only 20% of the time - and no evasion/fey

Consume Damage = 8d10 (light) every 2 seconds, stacks up to 3 times = 24d10 / 2 seconds

Stricken Damage = 24d6 (light) {cd = 10 seconds}
*For consume and stricken metamagics (emp + max) added

Consume Before: (spell power component) * ( dice #) * (avg damage on that dice) * (crit damage factor) = ({825*1.5+100}/100)*24*5.5*(2.6*.4 + .6) = 2895 damage every 2 seconds = 1448 average dps
Consume After: (spell power component) * ( dice #) * (avg damage on that dice) * (crit damage factor) = ({825*1.25+100}/100)*24*5.5*(2.6*.4 + .6) = 2448 damage every 2 seconds = 1224 average dps

Consume After / Consume Before = % reduction to dps = 84% || Consume will do 84% of the damage it currently does.

Stricken Before: (spell power component) * ( dice #) * (avg damage on that dice) * (crit damage factor) = ({825*1.5+100}/100)*24*3.5*(2.6*.4 + .6) = 1843 average damage (cd is 10 seconds)
Stricken After: (spell power component) * ( dice #) * (avg damage on that dice) * (crit damage factor) = ({825*1.25+100}/100)*24*3.5*(2.6*.4 + .6) = 1558 average damage (cd is 10 seconds)

Stricken After / Stricken Before = % reduction to dps = 84% || Stricken will do 84% of the damage it currently does.

Eldritch Blast Base Before: (spell power component) * ( dice #) * (avg damage on that dice) * (crit damage factor) = ({600*1.5+100}/100)*17*3.5*(2.6*.4 + .6) = 975.8 per blast
Eldritch Blast Base After: (spell power component) * ( dice #) * (avg damage on that dice) * (crit damage factor) = ({600*1.3+100}/100)*17*3.5*(2.6*.4 + .6) = 858.7 per blast

Eldritch Blast Pact Before: (spell power component) * ( dice #) * (avg damage on that dice) * (crit damage factor) * (save factor) = ({450*1.5+100}/100)*14*2.5*(2.6*.49 + .51) * (.8 + .5*.2) = 435.9 per blast
Eldritch Blast Pact After: (spell power component) * ( dice #) * (avg damage on that dice) * (crit damage factor) * (save factor)= ({450*1.3+100}/100)*14*2.5*(2.6*.49 + .51) * (.8 + .5*.2) = 384.9 per blast

Eldritch Blast Total Before = 975.8 per blast + 435.9 per blast = 1411.7
Eldritch Blast Total After = 858.7 per blast + 384.9 per blast = 1243.6

Eldritch Blast After / Eldritch Blast Before = % reduction to dps = 88% || Eldritch Blast will do 88% of the damage it currently does.

Eldritch Blast will be losing 200 damage from each blast essentially - multiply that by the avg blasting rate and you get the raw dps loss.

Removing almost 200 damage from each blast + removing 220 dps from consume will cripple warlocks single target damage. In truth this dps loss will only be amplified once you add in other factors (20% vuln. debuff from souleater, etc).

Assuming a modest (again low end value) 2 blasts per second - the nerf to blast and consume alone total 620 dps loss (before multiplied by other factors such as vuln.). 744 with vuln. factored in.

You guys need to seriously reconsider the single target dps reductions to warlock. Yes they are ahead of other casters at the moment because the other casters are relics from an era before 1 million hp super bosses. However, they are behind EVERY single reworked class in terms of single target damage (in end game content). Warlock right now is the crutch caster players can use to play this game how they want to - if you nerf their single target damage you are essentially telling all casters to reroll their toons into non-casters. It is the ONLY caster build that is truly in a good spot right now. We are willing to wait for our class passes / spell passes but we have to have something to do while we wait. For many of us warlock was/is the answer to that - we want to play casters and this is our only truly viable option right now. Remove power from warlock in any other way besides removing single target damage - for surely with the current state of end game removing single target damage is the harshest nerf you can impose on a build.

I am praying that you guys take this feedback into consideration - I don't want to see you guys throwaway what little improvement you've given to casters in the last year.

Note: A lot of the stuff I assumed can actually be thrown away if all you care about is % reduction since it will show up in both the numerator and denominator. I included those assumptions so you could see the raw values at the end before taking the quotient.

Seikojin

10-14-2015, 08:47 PM

Thats exactly the key part of the changes to archers that needs a dev reply. Overall it looks like my monkcher is down 25% arrows meaning fewer mortal fear procs and fewer adrenalines in particular. Normal damage looks about the same but thats not the key issue at all.

We badly need a dev reply to this.

The increase to ranged power will help mitigate some of the loss of damage that comes in the form of reduced shots (and all their goodies). However I know this change will reduce overall dps for ranged by a bit. But until Lamannia is up, no one can say how much the change will actually matter.

I know in dps tests before, I was dropping 100k kobolds in less than 18 seconds. So if it doubles to 36, I would ask for a bigger increase in ranged power. If it goes to 20, I would say nothing. If it goes to 25, I would ask for something. Either more ranged power, or some more doubleshot.

Not revert to its massive lag inducing 260+ arrow-ness that it is now.

nomadicc

10-14-2015, 08:52 PM

You could also say that any time they add new gear to the game, it de-values everything that existed before. Or change anything in enhancements or the class that makes some things more or less useful than they were before.

Do you have any IDEA how much I farmed to get that Epic Belt of the Mroranon, Epic Kundarak Delving Goggles, Epic Siren's Bracers and Epic Siren's Belt? None of which I use any more. "I worked hard to get something that won't be as awesome now" is a null argument. Anybody who has played the game for any length of time can say this.

I absolutely understand. I have 2x alchemical khopeshes that I spent a *lot* of time running LoB, pre MotU, to build. They're still decent at level 20, but have since been overcome by a bunch of better/newer/higher level weapons. I expect those weapons will be overcome by the new epic greensteels. That's a natural part of MMO's expanding and progressing, and I'm happy with that.

But, after this update, my alchemicals will still be just as good as they were before, while my rare quarterstaves will not. That hurts, because the best weapons in the game are still just as good, and a few cool ones used by niche builds are being diminished.

Seikojin

10-14-2015, 08:52 PM

I just want to emphasize, rearticulate and hopefully maybe inspire discussion regarding the fighter-feat arrangement that's on the table.

First off Sgt Hart is right when he says things like:

Because he's hitting on something you are doing very wrong, that will have long-running repercussions for the already underperforming class, and by extension the classes that stand next to it in comparison.

Making fighters take repeated, identical, underwhelming, exclusive feats to get things other classes get for free is missing everything cool about fighters. Having 18 feats and then spending between 2-4 feats on attaining the MRR needed to survive magic attacks is essentially forcing fighters to trade a disproportionate amount of their class advantage to survive and making the selection of feats a forgone conclusion. As you'll see below, I don't think its necessarily bad for fighters to be buying their goodies with feats, but the current arrangement is going to cost too much for too little and severely limit the ability of fighters to make meaningful choices. More importantly making them fighter only feats misses the point of the class entirely.

Let me explain:
Rangers get a powerful, themed set of feats and enhancements that allows them to inhabit a few roles in the game. Some of the things that make them special aren't available to anyone else, while others are simply widely-available powers that synergize with what they get for free.
Rogues get a different set of themed feats and enhancements with different roles on offer, they also have abilities exclusive to them and non-exclusives that help them maximize what they already have.

Fighters get almost no preset abilities other than proficiency with every martial weapon and armor. Instead they get 18 feats. With those 18 feats, they can select from all of those generally-available feats that help each class focus and hone it's innate power. Because fighters have no innate role they can choose, or create, whichever suits them. They can synergize abilities and maximize 1 or 2 skills, or they can generalize and be competent with everything. Sometimes a Ranger will have to choose which of two equally desirable feats complements his innate skills the best, and he must forgo the other. The advantage of the fighter, the bonus he gets in exchange for having nothing given to him for free, is that he looks at those two feats and has no problems, because he can afford both. He can take ever-so-many bow related feats and be a crazy powerful archer, maybe even better than the ranger in his own way. Or he can take fewer bow related feats and become a competent archer who also has a hammer, something beyond the ranger entirely. He can take armor and shields and toughness to survive anything or he can be simply a durable and competent swordsman, the point is that he can be whatever he wants within the confines of the feat list. Fighters are the martial-oriented protoclass. Where other classes get unique and themed powers, fighters start with nothing pre-chosen.

Fighters are not specialists, and this I think is whats being done wrong over and over. Fighters can be specialists, and in DDO it's tempting to cast them that way by providing 1 or 2 themed trees with a focus for each, because themed trees are the way every other class derives it's value. But the beauty in the fighter class is that they don't have to be anything in particular. Fighters look unexciting to new-comers to DnD, because they are just "mundane" martial soldiers. Other classes get cool things like magic and ki and psionics, why would a fighter be exciting? It's because, played right, a fighter can form frighteningly effective and occasionally exotic roles that simply could not be achieved in the more directed classes.

Practically, this means that instead of exclusive fighter feats, we should increase the number of desirable feats available to everyone at heroic level. This will offer meaningful choices across the board.. But the real power is when it starts to make the other classes wish they could take all of the feats and, crucially, not be able to. This brings up the value of fighters because now they suddenly have an array of different things they can do or be, they can attempt to compete with another class at their primary role, or they can focus on a completely new design. A completely devoted archer-fighter may outshoot rangers if hes careful, but he won't really play like them and he certainly won't be able to do everything a ranger can do, like divine healing. Chains of feats are especially good, Whirlwind Attack is somewhat underwhelming as yet, but the idea of taking 3-4 marginally useful feats like Dodge-Mobility-Spring Attack to unlock the final, very potent, feat is very productive for this idea. Fighters can afford to take Whirlwind and still have feats for other things. A tempest who builds for Whirlwind is going to be much harder pressed. Make some really cool feats for offensive and defensive use, sprinkle effective but not-optimal feats into the requirements and watch fighters matter again.

Next, the trees need consideration. Vanguard is great, offering offensive and defensive bonuses to the shield user. Stalwart is nearly perfect, it's got wonderful low-hanging fruit that any heavy-armor design could use and the higher tiers are compelling but not so much so that taking tier 4 is a waste of time if your focus lies elsewhere. Kensei has whispers of greatness, with the action boosts and DCs on offer, its a shame someone spilled monk all over it.What it needs is to have the needless thematic junk scrapped. One with the Blade is fine, but all the light-armor and PJs are better off as extra selectors on Stalwart stuff(you read that right, Stalwart with a few light-armor bonuses could be an all around defensive smorgasbord). Action-boosts burned for single attacks aren't great, how about some acceptable-but-not-great selectors for Melee Power, Ranged Power, Sneak Attack, Doubleshot and Doublestrike? Then fill out the rest with things like W bonus attacks and bonuses that magnify the effect of feats. Make the Tier 5s things like Keen Edge that are desirable for anyone with a weapon, but not strictly superior to similar bonuses in more thematic trees. Cores could allow diverse weapon bonus stats with your focus weapon, or add a second focus weapon in place of more power to the first one.

The idea is that you have an Offensive tree that makes whatever weapon you have work better, regardless of what it is and how it works. Nothing in this tree should make your jaw drop, instead everything in this tree should feel like a solid choice for the points. The same should be true of Stalwart and that might require some tweaking to make it work for other armor types, but a focus on moderate bonuses to relevant stats should be easier to do than most trees. Vanguard is there both because A. Its already there and B. It's a great option for making a straightforward and fun-to-play fighter, its got nothing that I can see greatly over-powering the class when the other trees are in line.

The better thing here is that fighters become not only the protoclass, but their levels become proto-levels too. They have full BAB, feats nearly every level and if my enhancement suggestions were followed, would bring measured bonuses to literally anything you splashed them into. A pure fighter has the tools available to excel, but doesn't stomp on as many toes because the idea is to make it so that no single ability is driving the tree.

So that was long, my point is to tell you what I think is wrong, why I think its wrong, what I think it should be like and then offer a little bit of how that might emerge. I seriously hope you guys do this right, because the current plan sounds like it's going to irrevocably alter the class.

Other classes have specializations fighters do not. So giving the same feats to all others would push them further ahead and make less people choose fighter. No fighter has to choose these feats. They are an option. Some are useful to some fighters while others are not. Even with changes to prr and mrr, these feats are just additional options to expand how a fighter can perform.

Seikojin

10-14-2015, 08:57 PM

Seikojin

10-14-2015, 08:58 PM

True.

My question becomes how do you know what is working when you change so much at once?

Lamannia.

Sgt_Hart

10-14-2015, 09:01 PM

Other classes have specializations fighters do not. So giving the same feats to all others would push them further ahead and make less people choose fighter. No fighter has to choose these feats. They are an option. Some are useful to some fighters while others are not. Even with changes to prr and mrr, these feats are just additional options to expand how a fighter can perform.

And that's where the disagreement comes in. the fighter flavor is: I have feats for everything. I took "Expert Underwater Basket Weaver" because I had a feat slot for it.

That's the point. The other classes Should be able to take the feats, But they have to go "Is it worth the cost?" Fighters don't have that issue because of their flavor.

Drwaz99

10-14-2015, 09:04 PM

I ran warlock numbers before and after and I feel the reduction is too light. Warlocks are outperforming many classes and builds on their first life with nothing really special going on. Yeah, it is a reduction, but not enough of one.

The increase to ranged power will help mitigate some of the loss of damage that comes in the form of reduced shots (and all their goodies). However I know this change will reduce overall dps for ranged by a bit. But until Lamannia is up, no one can say how much the change will actually matter.

I know in dps tests before, I was dropping 100k kobolds in less than 18 seconds. So if it doubles to 36, I would ask for a bigger increase in ranged power. If it goes to 20, I would say nothing. If it goes to 25, I would ask for something. Either more ranged power, or some more doubleshot.

Not revert to its massive lag inducing 260+ arrow-ness that it is now.

Other classes have specializations fighters do not. So giving the same feats to all others would push them further ahead and make less people choose fighter. No fighter has to choose these feats. They are an option. Some are useful to some fighters while others are not. Even with changes to prr and mrr, these feats are just additional options to expand how a fighter can perform.

Please try to follow the rules highlighted in red for your convenience:

I want to pop into the thread to encourage folks to make a concerted effort to stay on track. Ultimately, we'd much rather hear your feedback and questions to our posts than refutations of other players' suggestions. I want to be as flexible as I can be, but would prefer that this thread not shift over into a long back and forth over someone else's ideas.

It goes without saying that we will not tolerate insults, harassment, or abuse. This is a particularly important topic for us, and we really want to get meaningful feedback from all of you. Thanks!

Thanks.

blerkington

10-14-2015, 09:11 PM

Not revert to its massive lag inducing 260+ arrow-ness that it is now.

Hi,

This again? What is your evidence for making this claim?

Massive lag is definitely not something I'm seeing when I use manyshot, and the great majority of other people posting in the AA thread about this particular issue said the same thing.

Thanks.

Morroiel

10-14-2015, 09:11 PM

I ran warlock numbers before and after and I feel the reduction is too light. Warlocks are outperforming many classes and builds on their first life with nothing really special going on. Yeah, it is a reduction, but not enough of one.

Outperforming many classes and builds on their first life? Are you serious? In the area of single target damage!?!? I highly doubt that.

Consider the numbers I just ran - even if you assume an ASTONISHING (unbelievable) rate of fire of 3 blasts per second - and no rate of fire decrease for casting consume/stricken.

You are looking at roughly 150 dps from stricken + 1.4k dps from consume + 4233 dps from eldritch blast - 5.6k dps. This is the absolute max end of it. There are a vast collection of builds on the forums that do upwards of 7000 dps.

Show me single target dps testing or calculations that put warlock above any of the reworked classes and I will believe you.

When you say that warlocks are outperforming many classes and builds you are right if you are talking about heroics or in terms of aoe trash clearing speed. OR if you are referring to palemasters / sorcerers / clerics / caster druids / fvs / shiradi | all of which are considered at the VERY bottom of the totem pole for class power.

Grailhawk

10-14-2015, 09:14 PM

And that's where the disagreement comes in. the fighter flavor is: I have feats for everything. I took "Expert Underwater Basket Weaver" because I had a feat slot for it.

That's the point. The other classes Should be able to take the feats, But they have to go "Is it worth the cost?" Fighters don't have that issue because of their flavor.

That is not the Fighter flavor at all. Fighter flavor has traditionally across different version of D&D and in DDO been that of a Man-at-Arms/Weapons Master. Fighters are warriors trained in the art of combat and not much else, they have versatility in how they can be built Light Armored Skirmishers or Heavy Armored Dreadnoughts and that's what there plethora of feats allows them to do, that's also why there feat bonus feats are limited to combat feat.

Having a plethora of feats is not flavor.

Fighter only feat are the best way to buff fighters those feat are a fighter buff there is no reason for any other class to have them just like no other class gets access to the Weapon Specialization Feats.

Zistra

10-14-2015, 09:19 PM

i just want to emphasize, rearticulate and hopefully maybe inspire discussion regarding the fighter-feat arrangement that's on the table.

First off sgt hart is right when he says things like:

Because he's hitting on something you are doing very wrong, that will have long-running repercussions for the already underperforming class, and by extension the classes that stand next to it in comparison.

Making fighters take repeated, identical, underwhelming, exclusive feats to get things other classes get for free is missing everything cool about fighters. Having 18 feats and then spending between 2-4 feats on attaining the mrr needed to survive magic attacks is essentially forcing fighters to trade a disproportionate amount of their class advantage to survive and making the selection of feats a forgone conclusion. As you'll see below, i don't think its necessarily bad for fighters to be buying their goodies with feats, but the current arrangement is going to cost too much for too little and severely limit the ability of fighters to make meaningful choices. More importantly making them fighter only feats misses the point of the class entirely.

Let me explain:
Rangers get a powerful, themed set of feats and enhancements that allows them to inhabit a few roles in the game. Some of the things that make them special aren't available to anyone else, while others are simply widely-available powers that synergize with what they get for free.
Rogues get a different set of themed feats and enhancements with different roles on offer, they also have abilities exclusive to them and non-exclusives that help them maximize what they already have.

Fighters get almost no preset abilities other than proficiency with every martial weapon and armor. Instead they get 18 feats. With those 18 feats, they can select from all of those generally-available feats that help each class focus and hone it's innate power. Because fighters have no innate role they can choose, or create, whichever suits them. They can synergize abilities and maximize 1 or 2 skills, or they can generalize and be competent with everything. Sometimes a ranger will have to choose which of two equally desirable feats complements his innate skills the best, and he must forgo the other. The advantage of the fighter, the bonus he gets in exchange for having nothing given to him for free, is that he looks at those two feats and has no problems, because he can afford both. He can take ever-so-many bow related feats and be a crazy powerful archer, maybe even better than the ranger in his own way. Or he can take fewer bow related feats and become a competent archer who also has a hammer, something beyond the ranger entirely. He can take armor and shields and toughness to survive anything or he can be simply a durable and competent swordsman, the point is that he can be whatever he wants within the confines of the feat list. Fighters are the martial-oriented protoclass. Where other classes get unique and themed powers, fighters start with nothing pre-chosen.

Fighters are not specialists, and this i think is whats being done wrong over and over. Fighters can be specialists, and in ddo it's tempting to cast them that way by providing 1 or 2 themed trees with a focus for each, because themed trees are the way every other class derives it's value. But the beauty in the fighter class is that they don't have to be anything in particular. Fighters look unexciting to new-comers to dnd, because they are just "mundane" martial soldiers. Other classes get cool things like magic and ki and psionics, why would a fighter be exciting? It's because, played right, a fighter can form frighteningly effective and occasionally exotic roles that simply could not be achieved in the more directed classes.

Practically, this means that instead of exclusive fighter feats, we should increase the number of desirable feats available to everyone at heroic level. This will offer meaningful choices across the board.. But the real power is when it starts to make the other classes wish they could take all of the feats and, crucially, not be able to. this brings up the value of fighters because now they suddenly have an array of different things they can do or be, they can attempt to compete with another class at their primary role, or they can focus on a completely new design. A completely devoted archer-fighter may outshoot rangers if hes careful, but he won't really play like them and he certainly won't be able to do everything a ranger can do, like divine healing. Chains of feats are especially good, whirlwind attack is somewhat underwhelming as yet, but the idea of taking 3-4 marginally useful feats like dodge-mobility-spring attack to unlock the final, very potent, feat is very productive for this idea. Fighters can afford to take whirlwind and still have feats for other things. A tempest who builds for whirlwind is going to be much harder pressed. Make some really cool feats for offensive and defensive use, sprinkle effective but not-optimal feats into the requirements and watch fighters matter again.

Next, the trees need consideration. Vanguard is great, offering offensive and defensive bonuses to the shield user. Stalwart is nearly perfect, it's got wonderful low-hanging fruit that any heavy-armor design could use and the higher tiers are compelling but not so much so that taking tier 4 is a waste of time if your focus lies elsewhere. Kensei has whispers of greatness, with the action boosts and dcs on offer, its a shame someone spilled monk all over it.what it needs is to have the needless thematic junk scrapped. One with the blade is fine, but all the light-armor and pjs are better off as extra selectors on stalwart stuff(you read that right, stalwart with a few light-armor bonuses could be an all around defensive smorgasbord). Action-boosts burned for single attacks aren't great, how about some acceptable-but-not-great selectors for melee power, ranged power, sneak attack, doubleshot and doublestrike? Then fill out the rest with things like w bonus attacks and bonuses that magnify the effect of feats. Make the tier 5s things like keen edge that are desirable for anyone with a weapon, but not strictly superior to similar bonuses in more thematic trees. Cores could allow diverse weapon bonus stats with your focus weapon, or add a second focus weapon in place of more power to the first one.

The idea is that you have an offensive tree that makes whatever weapon you have work better, regardless of what it is and how it works. Nothing in this tree should make your jaw drop, instead everything in this tree should feel like a solid choice for the points. The same should be true of stalwart and that might require some tweaking to make it work for other armor types, but a focus on moderate bonuses to relevant stats should be easier to do than most trees. Vanguard is there both because a. Its already there and b. It's a great option for making a straightforward and fun-to-play fighter, its got nothing that i can see greatly over-powering the class when the other trees are in line.

The better thing here is that fighters become not only the protoclass, but their levels become proto-levels too. They have full bab, feats nearly every level and if my enhancement suggestions were followed, would bring measured bonuses to literally anything you splashed them into. A pure fighter has the tools available to excel, but doesn't stomp on as many toes because the idea is to make it so that no single ability is driving the tree.

So that was long, my point is to tell you what i think is wrong, why i think its wrong, what i think it should be like and then offer a little bit of how that might emerge. I seriously hope you guys do this right, because the current plan sounds like it's going to irrevocably alter the class.

^^this!!!!

Zistra

10-14-2015, 09:24 PM

Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
True.

My question becomes how do you know what is working when you change so much at once?

Lamannia.

Two problems:
1. Almost never does anything that hits Lamm, no matter how bad, change before it goes Live.

2. The point of the quote was, how do you differentiate which changes were good and which were bad when so many linked and synergistic things are changed simultaneously. This is the antithesis of the scientific method. Change one thing and check the results. Then change another. Maybe you can change 3 at once if they're UNRELATED.

Lycurgus

10-14-2015, 09:25 PM

You guys need to seriously reconsider the single target dps reductions to warlock. Yes they are ahead of other casters at the moment because the other casters are relics from an era before 1 million hp super bosses. However, they are behind EVERY single reworked class in terms of single target damage (in end game content). Warlock right now is the crutch caster players can use to play this game how they want to - if you nerf their single target damage you are essentially telling all casters to reroll their toons into non-casters. It is the ONLY caster build that is truly in a good spot right now. We are willing to wait for our class passes / spell passes but we have to have something to do while we wait. For many of us warlock was/is the answer to that - we want to play casters and this is our only truly viable option right now. Remove power from warlock in any other way besides removing single target damage - for surely with the current state of end game removing single target damage is the harshest nerf you can impose on a build.

This simple fact can't be overstated enough. Casters across the board are in a pretty lousy place unless you're willing to suck down mnemonics at an unsustainable pace. You've done melee passes and are now turning around to tweak the very same melee passes before you've even finished with all of the melees. Players who prefer to play casters have a disgustingly long time to wait before you get to their preferred classes and instead of moving forward, you're going backward on tweaks.

The traditional casting classes are superfluous with the current state of the game and have been for some time. A druid with an adequate earthquake dc is nice to have around, but you'll still get better mileage out of ANY melee that's had its pass. Fix some of the casting classes, give us some options, before nerfing one of the few options left for the foreseeable future. Nerfing warlock at this point is going to end up with nothing but Shiradi and the proposed changes leave room for some genuinely stupidly overpowered Shiradi builds coming out of this.

Mortas

10-14-2015, 09:30 PM

Severlin posted quite the explanation about how the PRR and MRR are to help make things (like Pali's) be more fun and competitive starting here https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/446136-Armor-Up-Developer-Diary-1?p=5390394&viewfull=1#post5390394 so what's happened ?

The other conundrum is, if I read this right, a Holy Sword nerf due to pali's being over powered rangers...? I posted in the multiclass asking for an explanation of how that works because I've never seen one in game, a build post, let alone considered using a bow as a paladin yet apparently it warrants a major merf (I nerfed the 'n').

As to too much damage and things being too easy, my guy has a handful of lives, raid gear, not completionist but not gimped and I don't see a "I Win" icon anywhere. EE is a challenge I like. Ever consider the ones who are completionists types who have run EE content so much a lot of it is essentially knowing the content because it doesn't change ? Aside from the grunt work of beating on something, if you know the map down to where you have to stand on what texture to find the trap box...to know to dodge - just at this time - ... to know this guy throws acid so you can gear for it, this is essentially omnipotence so what do you expect if a god walks through a game ? Oh, hey this is way to easy and soooo boring to have to beat on this thing when I just want my shiny. So, yeah I get that some might think it's too easy when all they really have is massive experience on their side as well as equipment etc from all the runs getting that or shared knowledge from the wiki etc. Without random layout, encounters or even semi random based on some story this is gonna happen.

This is a balance thread so here's one suggestion for balance. Engineer some random dungeons sort of like Anarchy Online. Put chances for awesome shiny's in there even the uber type will want and when one pops in with his massive fire reduction gear and it turns out to have a lot of not fire the trend will be balance since you won't know what to gear for. Some will favor certain builds and equipment styles anyway so great for flavor and reduces cookie cutter builds. Gonna say random instances might just be a way to keep the game alive and self balancing with variety until DDO Deific Edition - The Planes hits stores near you.

jakeelala

10-14-2015, 09:38 PM

Why are you devs consistently ignoring questions about throwers?

redoubt

10-14-2015, 09:46 PM

Lamannia.

So, when you are on lamannia and see a drop of 20% dps. Can you tell me how much each part of the balance pass did?

If TWF paladins are seen as under performing, can you identify which change is the root cause? Is it the TWF change? The Holy Sword change?

Lamannia is no better than live for identifying how much of an impact each proposed change has when all are dropped at once. You simply have a whole new game in a take it or leave it mode (because you don't know what to change back if you need to, you are simply guessing which thing was too much. It might also be an interaction between two changes, but you can't tell.)

redoubt

10-14-2015, 09:48 PM

Hi,

This again? What is your evidence for making this claim?

Massive lag is definitely not something I'm seeing when I use manyshot, and the great majority of other people posting in the AA thread about this particular issue said the same thing.

Thanks.

Agreed. My previous life (a month ago) was a moncher. Neither 10k nor manyshot came with lag.

Lycurgus

10-14-2015, 09:55 PM

Another perspective would be to flip each of these: Does adding PRR/MRR to all armor automatically make DDO better or "increase options"? If barbarians didn't take damage and never needed healing would it be a better game? Does increasing DPS automatically enhance the game experience?

Every one of these questions is about finding the right spot across a gray scale. Getting the exact right answer is always going to be quite difficult. Getting a group of people (developers, players, both) to agree on the exact right answer verges on impossible, so we can only do the best we can.

Another question, or perspective as it were, if you will: do you understand that the changes in the game over the last three years have ALREADY chased away all but a handful of people who would be willing or interested in playing a healing role?

EllisDee37

10-14-2015, 10:08 PM

Each of [those named weapons with better than normal crit profiles] will still have a stronger critical profile (chance or damage multiplier) than other weapons. These just won't be twice as special.But that is a problem. Being twice as special makes them competitive with thunderforge. Being just a little more special? Thunderforge for everyone.

the_one_dwarfforged

10-14-2015, 10:10 PM

I just want to emphasize, rearticulate and hopefully maybe inspire discussion regarding the fighter-feat arrangement that's on the table.

i think the new fighter feats are pretty well implemented. they add some uniqueness only available to fighter (something desperately needed now that keen edge is the worst of the BUNCH) and are tiered without forcing a linear progression allowing you a great degree of optimization.

if these feats were accessible to everyone, then pretty much everyone would take the champion feat and ignore the rest, and thered be no advantage provided to fighters. do you honestly expect many pure fighters to take all four feats of either of these lines? i know i probably (almost certainly) wont be, unless theres some significant mp added to kensei and i dont feel the need to have 9 mp feats.

jakeelala

10-14-2015, 10:20 PM

But that is a problem. Being twice as special makes them competitive with thunderforge. Being just a little more special? Thunderforge for everyone.

Hopefully they nerf Mortal Fear (I have 3 Mortal fear Shurikens, so don't think I'm sour grapes). Its just really powerful. Instead, they could lower mob HP.

EllisDee37

10-14-2015, 10:22 PM

Edit.. math before coffee=bad...

Dwarven axe.. 1d10 19-20x3 .(1d10x17)+(3d10x2) = 23d10 =260
Bastard Sword 1d10 17-20x2 .(1d10x15)+(2d10x4) = 23d10 =260

see BigErkyKid down the page for better math... with damage modifiers.Both you and BigErkyKid appear to have missed the context of my reply. Here's where the discussion started:

I think Dwarven Axe and Bastard Sword should be in the same category. Options for 1 handed weapons with glancing blow are already very limited and they both cost a feat unless you're Dwarf.
I think this a good idea. Dwarven axe will start at 20 and move to 18-20 while bastard will be 17 - 20 with improved crit feat.
Dwarven axes are x3, bastard swords are x2. 18-20x3 is way better than 17-20x2.

In summary: Dwarven Axes shouldn't get the same benefit from IC as Bastard Swords because Dwarven Axes have a larger multiplier. If they get the same benefit, that makes Dwarven Axes clearly superior. (9% better, as shown by BigErkyKid's numbers.)

Thar

10-14-2015, 10:23 PM

I find the claim that it'd be impossible for barbs to survive with a 1 second cooldown on Blood Rage to be kind of funny given that they used to survive with no Blood Rage whatsoever. Maybe, I dunno, don't just stand around in the middle of a group of enemies flailing away?

I'd suggest increasing the max absorption on Protection from Elements, though. Why it caps at 120 now is beyond me.

they survived because they were all in the closet of non use. or didn't rage. both options were not good. Since healers have disappeared due to no offensive capability, barbs did too. Barbs came back with the changes. Healers did not. When was the last time you saw a 16+ healer in group?

Thar

10-14-2015, 10:25 PM

Hopefully they nerf Mortal Fear (I have 3 Mortal fear Shurikens, so don't think I'm sour grapes). Its just really powerful. Instead, they could lower mob HP.

or they could change the recipies so something else is worth making. the other recipies for tier 3 are mostly junk with an exception or two. ie

Body Breaker: On Hit: 5% Chance Fortitude Save -5, Sunder Attempt. who would make this as a tier 5... seriously...

Burning Emptiness: On Vorpal: 55 to 110 Fire Damage every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. On Crit: 108 to 260 Negative Energy Damage. - looks good until you see the on vorpal part...

jakeelala

10-14-2015, 10:32 PM

Burning Emptiness: On Vorpal: 55 to 110 Fire Damage every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. On Crit: 108 to 260 Negative Energy Damage. - looks good until you see the on vorpal part...

Actually with a good crit range this is excellent against red and purple names

I dont think the game would be served by making other T3's as good as Mortal Fear. Nerfing mortal fear and making the other T3's not completely useless could go a long way however. I mean who is ever going to make Greensteel if it isn't better than Mortal Fear? And how can it better than Mortal Fear if isn't just instant death on a Vorpal?

EllisDee37

10-14-2015, 10:32 PM

I find the claim that it'd be impossible for barbs to survive with a 1 second cooldown on Blood Rage to be kind of funny given that they used to survive with no Blood Rage whatsoever.The point is that no, they didn't. That's why so few people ran them and they were rated as among the worst classes to play in that survey before the class revamps started.

Spekdah_NZ

10-14-2015, 10:37 PM

Well I feel like going against the grain here; looking forward to some shake ups.

My main in a monkcher, real curve ball. Elf variant so I can max AA without many ranger levels for crit, but the rest? At least 6 ranger for feats. 12 ranger for threat range in DWS (slightly better BAB), or 12 monk for more 10K DblS, splash rogue for some SA dice, or fighter for a couple of feats? Still waiting to try out the tree to work out all the changes. C'mon Lam! Decided, for some strange reason, that I am going to have fun working it out. Farrrrout ..... what a concept.

The min max landscape shifts again. What will emerge? Will we have a new brand named build?

As for projectiles and lag, that comment caught me out. I am one of those players that really does not get lag, only rarely in raids and that time Khyber had an issue and it was booted. I play on equipment and environments that are not ideal. Almost all the time WiFi, and through walls, ceilings and floors. 90% of the time on my old work laptop. Sometimes I have even used DDO, on a bus to work tethered of my mobile, found I can do wilderness areas (without a mouse)!! :p. I play almost exclusively archers, so lots of mechanic recently with an alt, and my main AA. They have never been laggy for me. And the warlock life I did when it cam out ... had some all warlock groups, 6 us us zerging with chain just holding down the button for the duration of the quest ... no lag. Oh I am in New Zealand so the data travels the pacific too :-)

Jetrule

10-14-2015, 10:39 PM

I do feel bad for my friends build. I have a friend and static group member who loves his dual bastard sword wielding pure fighter. 3 feats for two handed weapon fighting 3 feats for two weapon fighting 5 feats for slashing weapons focus and specialization. 1 feat for bastard sword 1 feat for elf dragon mark. 1 feat for stunning and 1 for imp crit. 2 for cleaves and 2 for power attack and precision. That's 17 feats for a elf pure fighter. Certainly not a power game build, just one he likes to play. Nerfed hard. Loss of mrr from armor, Loss of melee power from two weapon fighting. Loss of 1 crit range from non multiplying kensai keen edge. Loss of prr from armor. It turns a marginal build into one that is maybe a failure. This build was already hungry for more feats lol. Just because fighters get lots of feats doesn't mean they couldn't use more. Charging extra new feats to get some useable mrr is simply to expensive for a lot of fighters. Especially if they already have lots of need for their feats.

I guess my concern is that many "flavor" builds or marginal but fun builds recently made playable by armor up are going to become less playable now and it may be discouraging to players who were enjoying something different. I wonder if the nerfs truly encourage build diversity as much as you think?

Thud

10-14-2015, 10:50 PM

While you're all at it, Nerf Mortal Fear.

Not yet. I still need some mushrooms for my TOEE set!

lyrecono

10-14-2015, 11:00 PM

Greetings.

We've seen a lot of community feedback, both public and private, about our ongoing plans for balance. These are some changes we are considering to increase game balance.

As with any post that outlines power reductions (aka nerfs) I am sure there will be a lot of players looking for explanations and our thoughts and results on balance that led to these changes. I will be following up this post with more details that talk about why some of these changes are being implemented.

***

Holy Sword (Paladin)
Many shield using paladins thank you

Critical Rage (Barbarian Ravager)
The bonus to critical threat range is now a competence bonus.
making it use impaired, thanks

Two weapon fighting animations have been fixed so there is no longer a weird jump on the fourth animation. This has made the fourth attack slightly quicker.
who auto attacks anymore, wolf builds and swf?

Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Improved Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Greater Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
meh, small impact

Doubleshot values over 100% now have a chance of producing a third attack. The chance is equal to the amount the value exceeds 100. A doubleshot value of 130, for example, would always produce one extra shot and have a 30% chance to produce a third shot.

(Doublestrike will still cap at 100 for technical reasons.)

Repeating Crossbows and Doubleshot
Fixed a bug where Doubleshot was not being reduced for repeating crossbows. (Doubleshot chance is divided by 3 for repeating crossbows.)

Manyshot
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 20 seconds you add your (base attack bonus * 4) to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. This ability puts Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 2 minutes.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

Ten Thousand Stars
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 30 seconds you add your Wisdom ability score to your Ranged Power and you add your monk level * 5 to your Doubleshot. This ability puts Manyshot on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 1 minute.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

Mechanical Reloader (Rogue Mechanic)
The alacrity for non-repeating crossbows is now 30%. (Was 40%)

Pulverizer (Legendary Dreadnought)
The bonus to critical threat range for bludgeoning weapons is now an Insight bonus.
gee, thanks mister

Improved Critical
These feats now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.
meh, different wording same effect, just nerfing all the old named gear we worked so hard for to get, funny really when you think of it, they never finished the named item overhaul that feather started

Keen
This loot effect now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.
see improved crittical

Armor Changes
The amount of Physical Resist Rating that armor provides has been changed.
* Heavy armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 2) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Medium armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1.5) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Light Armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
Fixed a bug where players were getting Physical Resist Rating for armor with which they were not proficient.
see response down bellow
(Note: The Physical Resist Rating and Magical Resist Rating offered by shields remain unchanged.)

As a result of dialing back armor, some fighter only feats that will boost their effectiveness with armor and add to tactical DCs will also be included.
meh, offering bucket of water after you burn the building down is a tad bit.... disgusting?
Tactical Training
Requires Fighter Level 4
You gain +2 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 8
You gain +4 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Mastery
Requires Fighter Level 12
You gain +6 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Supremacy
Requires Fighter Level 16
You gain +8 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Notes: All tactical feats stack for a total of +20. The lower level feats are not prerequisites for the higher level feats so a higher level fighter could save a feat if he/she wanted to skip Tactical Training and forego the +2 but still have access to Tatical Supremacy.
wow, we really needed a +20....

Heavy Armor Training
Requires Fighter Level 2
You gain +3 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 6
You gain +6 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Master
Requires Fighter Level 10
You gain +9 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Champion
Requires Fighter Level 14
You gain +12 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Notes: All Heavy Armor feats stack for a total of +30. The lower level feats are not prerequisites for the higher level feats so a higher level fighter could save a feat if he/she wanted to skip Heavy Armor Training and forego the +3 and still have access to Heavy Armor Champion.
This wasn't needed if you weren't planning to break a working system, shouldn't you focus your efforts to stuff that is actually broken?
I don't get what you're trying to do here, melee fighters aren't played in heroics or epics so far as i can see, i know of only 3 on the server and they all suck.

Divine Grace (Paladin)
Divine Grace now provides a maximum bonus equal to 2 + (Paladin level x 3).
I'm divided on this, but i say no, only because it limits character building
Eldritch Blast and other enhancements (Warlock)
The spellpower scaling for Eldritch Blast and several enhancements has been reduced.

Ugh, more warlock nerfs, they're fun on heroics, terrible to passable in epics.
Why did they need nerfs?

I will be following up this post with some details on our thoughts on balance and design.
How about a post that this is an early April fools day joke and go back making content and fixing bugs?
Sev~

Now for the armor thing,
This is where i should be fuming over the changes

and yet, all i can do is leaving open spaces because the decision is so mind boggling(......), my first reaction wouldn't clear the censure.
so i won't.
However, this means i can park 3 heavy armer toons untill i have found the means and builds to tr them, next to a bunch of other toons i can never play again because their build wouldn't have worked nowadays.
I'm not even sure i'm gone take the time and effort fixing the mistake you're making here, not even with a +20 heart
The impact is huge and unnecessary, if you hadn't made a mess of the EE setting this wouldn't have needed, worst part is, we pointed this out to you!
The critical return was a joke, armor up was the atonement, these changes will cause a mess for melee's again.

and i tire of it

get the hint, go back to fixing bugs and creating cosmetics/content
delete the tread an forget about it, stop listening to bad advice.

Any changes to increase player population?

You can nerf all you want but I'm not spending any more money on the game until the population increases significantly. I'm forced to solo 90% of the time because: either people don't join my LFMs (they're not weird LFMs, just standard "EBB") or there are no LFMs to join. I'd rather not have to send tells to random people asking if I can join them in their quest, hoping they're playing elite and not too far in. That seems a bit intrusive.

I used to play almost every day, now I play once a week and likely to play even less. I see no reason to play a MMORPG that forces me to solo most of the time.
Sadly, you're not the only one.......

20 rng is only 20 BAB not 28 soon to be 30.
Wrong, you gain 4 BAB in 8 epic levels, it is assumed you could gain a total of 5 BAB when the ca goes to 30
http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_level

More changes need to made in the healing arena. This game is far too easy and teamwork/roles are not needed at endgame. No one needs a healer. Healing classes are a lost art in this game since everyone can faceroll everything and selfheal.

I hope Mythic brings back tactics, challenge, & incentive to run endgame. It will be your last chance to save DDO.
I'm sorry but i have to disagree.
I remember the times when melee's were refused from parties because the cleric in party said, and i quote, "i rather spend my manna on bladebarier, it's more efficient then healing the melee's".
I'm one of those people who welcomed self healing melee's
Nowadays clerics are hard to find, people willing to play one even rarer. People just don't like to babysit, which is inherently harder btw now that they nerf mrr on platemail.
I hope Mythic brings back tactics, challenge, & incentive.
For the less then 5% population that still wants that?
And what for? For the last 7 years i have been hauling soulstone through content, but never as much as with the introduction of champions.
Over those years i have seen the population halved, each wave of needles changes drive of player after player, some return for a week after a big impact update but fewer linger.
How are these changes helping to keep the population together?
filling a part is impossible, filling a raid happens about 5% of the time, with "server merger" threads being closed (so....off the table?) where do YOU see things going?

"Balance Change" is the wrong title for this thread. If this was actually about "balance", it would have included unarmed, shields, casting, & dungeon scaling changes as well.

Best that any caster can supply: 95% success rate of killing something not red- or purple-named from 100% health.

Best that any melee can supply: 5% chance of 50% hp loss on anything not red- or purple-named, only after rolling against AC, concealment.

So long as this remains intact, it is pointless to have any true discussion about general game balance. Rename it "Combat Balance" and it'd be much closer to the thread content.

Yes, monks were mentioned by Cordovan as "SOON". I choose to believe it when I see it.

Shields are actively neglected for offensive purposes, Vanguard included.
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/448380-Update-23-Fourth-Look?p=5427295#post5427295

No Imp Crit, no no greater/perfect Shield Mastery, once-per-second hard limiter on bashing (I don't buy "animation issues" as an excuse because the Knight of the Chalice cleaves don't animate when activated closely together, but the damage output shows up just fine). Maybe with the MRR removal from armor you give Evasion back to shield users. Will try not to mention a dual shield option. Or a Captain America option.....

It seems to not much matter how much threat gen you have, one halfway decent cast can grab just about anything off of a tank. Also, 100 base Intimidate is a near constant failure in EE Necro, ToEE, & Trials, even on non-bosses.

I am a firm believer that most of the complaints of "overpoweredness" from the community stem from the fact that Bards, Paladins, & Barbarians had, for years, been flat out neglected as far as damage output is concerned. Something suddenly being on par with other melee builds might have made them seem suddenly very powerful. This should not be seen as overpowered. Additionally, do not view a sudden spike in the quantity of these classes as them being overpowered; but rather as classes now finally being viable in the game as playable, and not just a class to suffer through until you can TR into something actually useful and fun.

Most of the listed changes seem to be to try to make changes without trying to fix some underlying bug that exists currently. I'd rather the current combat system have its bugs hunted down & fixed.

PRR boost revamp was nice, but chipping away at it every other update......see my previous paragraph on perceived versus actual overpoweredness. I foresee pajama builds being dominant again in 6 months at this rate.

Please zone into a live server & look for some of the older players & ask them advice & opinion. Asking only forumites is intentionally blocking out an entire paying, playing, knowledgeable demographic that would likely point out blind spots in development, & therefore results when it comes to your bottom line. The Player's Council & the surveys were good ideas, but transparency & follow-up is necessary to see if you're actually improving your product.

~Cuyar of Orien, non-paying player since 2012 because of changes like this.

snipped some, but i do agree

Im newbie this game, played under a year. I have my first char now legendary (36 build).
Im VIP. European, so getting pug group is quite hard most heroic levels.

I got pulled here, because I have friend who I have played together - old char.
Together we have been running heroic elites and epic hards (and some epic elites, more with pugs).
I have been trying sooloing some content with alts. Sooloing heroic elites has been very hard except with warlock. And I admit that it has been quite blast to play with it.

I understand that you are bringing Reaver difficult for old players. But I do not understand current changes, which hit harder for new players than old players (peeps without all crafted gear and epics from low level raids - running with mostly greens and some blues). Are you meaning that I should go and solo only normal and hard, instead elites. Or idle and hope that someone joins my elite -group, so they can do it for me?
Do you know how hard epics are, when you dont have destiny points, nor gears for it - only AH greens and stuff what you picked up?

Welcome and grats,
I fully understand your point, something i brought up now and then on the forum now and then.
People like you are gone be hit the hardest with these stupid changes, i hope guys like you survive the oncoming storm.

maddong

10-14-2015, 11:02 PM

EllisDee37

10-14-2015, 11:04 PM

I do feel bad for my friends build. I have a friend and static group member who loves his dual bastard sword wielding pure fighter. 3 feats for two handed weapon fighting 3 feats for two weapon fightingThe THF feats aren't doing anything for him. Bastard Swords (and Dwarven Axes) don't deal glancing blows when you have a weapon in your off-hand.

Jetrule

10-14-2015, 11:14 PM

Again overall I love the changes.

But I don't see why we are nerfing twf (which I think gets hit harder with the improved crit changes) when we should just be nerfing mortal fear instead. If you nerf mortal fear then the game becomes more challenging, twf can keep its +6 MP and holy sword can still affect the offhand.

Also, why aren't we nerfing tree builds 3-5 hits/target/cleave (just make tree cleaves 1 hit only)?
Why are we still letting trees cleave while shield blocking?

Why isn't SWF disabled when in wolf form?

Great points. These nerfs would specifically target some of the most overpowered content trivializing aspects of the game while not harming most casual or newer players. Especially the mortal fear nerf. I think wolves should be able to use swf but like any standard melee it doesn't work with 2wf or shield mastery unless you have the swashbuckler enhancements and are using a buckler. If however that proves impossible to code then ok let it disable swf. Still swash buckling wolf bard is fun.

Zistra

10-14-2015, 11:14 PM

We have multiple servers to avoid overloads. On each server we have a mix of PUGgers and those in long-term guild relationships that seldom or never group with outsiders.

Wouldn't it make sense to aggregate each type on their own server? Put all the insular guild-runners on one set of servers and the PUGgers on another set. That would instantly multiply the number of people putting up and responding to LFM's on the servers where there'd be any. Which would make the game much more enjoyable for those who PUG. And the Guild-mated won't likely notice the difference.

(Limits the possibility of moving from one group to the other, of course...).

Gogolboy

10-14-2015, 11:39 PM

What I don’t understand is why make all these so called balances of gameplay even need to come into play? The loss of your player base should be a huge issue, you guys don’t like to make money? Instead of pumping out all of the new content coming out, rehash the old stuff and improve the experience of playing that pack, or eliminate it all together. If you guys ‘the developers’ would focus more on the little things it would bring back some old players who would be willing to spend their hard earned monies on this game. I’m going to leave it at that, and I would like some of you guys to chime in and fix some of these issues.

ranthrock

10-14-2015, 11:50 PM

I know this has been brought up by several others, but I'd like to add my voice to the mob. The IC changes are a 1-for-1 swap for normal weapons, but this change will *specifically de-value* those rare/sought-after expanded crit range weapons that I and many others have spent hours collecting.

ESOS, several Tome of Legend choices, Silver Longbow are all affected, but I think quarterstaves are getting the biggest hit. Theurgic Staff, Breeze, Bone Crusher, Sireth... I don't think anyone was accusing staffers of over-performing. No one uses normal random-drop q-staffs. To be effective, you need one of these named items, and even then they are basically on-par with an average greatsword. Now they will be mathematically inferior. I think this will drive people away from clever builds using rare/odd weapons and into vanilla crit-fisher builds with rapiers, scimitars, khopeshes and falchions.

I humbly ask that you re-consider this impact of the IC change. Perhaps a bonus based on the weapon's existing crit range rather than weapon type. For example, all 20s get +1, all 19-20s get +2, etc., regardless of what kind of weapon (sword, staff, bow).

I can't agree more. As someone who has done fun flavor builds (dual morningstars, for example), it would be a huge hit to weapon variety to essentially break the named quarterstaffs and other lesser weapons in the game. I know that for most of these it's only a 5% chance to crit you're losing, but for marginal weapons, that makes a huge impact in players devoting resources to obtaining them or being willing to take the hit to DPS to use them.

Think about phosphor, which goes from (with IC) 15-20x2 to 17-20x2. Unless other changes were made (adding +1 to crit multiplier instead of just threat, e.g. making phosphor 20x4, with IC 19-20x4), there are a lot of weapons in the game nobody will even bother with anymore.

FlaviusMaximus

10-15-2015, 12:04 AM

Taking MRR out of the armors was smart. Gives more reasons to roll evasion characters.

I'm on the fence about the Holy Sword change. While it does give a large incentive to roll a TWF character that isn't utilizing Holy Sword and Dance of Death, it hurts all TWF Paladins. Is there a way to scale back Holy Sword Tempests without hitting TWF Paladins in the process?

I understand the crit range changes and support them overall. The one area of concern I have is that named weapons that have enhanced crit ranges naturally built in will be much less appealing if their crit ranges cannot be doubled. For these types of weapons, the draw is generally the crit range and not much else. That means if their crit ranges get scaled back by a good amount, some of these weapons may no longer serve a purpose in the game. A couple items like this that come to mind are the beloved Deathnips, which I do not have, but according to what I see on the forums, are still enjoyed by a portion of the community, and the Snowstar shuriken. My suggestion is to alter the crit ranges of these types of weapons so that with the new crit feats added in, they will equal the old crit modifiers or at least come closer. This allows some of the enjoyable flavor type weapons to remain somewhat relevant.

Sgt_Hart

10-15-2015, 12:12 AM

Fighter only feat are the best way to buff fighters those feat are a fighter buff there is no reason for any other class to have them just like no other class gets access to the Weapon Specialization Feats.

And yet, the fighter only feat list is three feat's, all to do with weapon usage. I'll change my opinion, when you can source me a version where fighter specific feat's weren't/aren't just about being highly trained in a weapon. You're opinion isn't wrong, but keep in mind, this implementation is diametrical to how Dungeons and Dragons has handled fighters. I'm convinced this is the wrong way to buff fighters. More feats, More useful feat's, More Feat's that got hijacked into vanguard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedOverrun) for example. These are thing's we Know DDO has the tech to do, god know's a great many flavors of Dragons and Giants love to push PC's all across the bloody map.

Why isn't Improved Disarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedDisarm) a thing yet? We know NPC's can weapon swap,(Kai-Teng Fairuza ring any bells?) Why isn't knocking the blade out of his hand for 10 seconds or so a productive thing to do? Oh sure, it'd need an internal "Can't equip" timer, but I could write that into Neverwinter Night's Bastardized C+ back in 2002, and it was a hobby for me, not my day job.

How about Snatch Arrows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#snatchArrows) huh? Fine, adapt it to DDO and let it just be insta-rebounded at the attacker once every few seconds, as a function of BAB(Moar BAB, less cooldown) and deal damage to the attacker when a character's getting peppered by archers. Again: Character, not fighter. The iconic fighter is the guy who can afford to take all the tricks, Not Auto grants, not exclusive feat's.

And if I haven't convinced you yet, that's fine. I still think tweaking down PRR/MRR across the board, and introducing a fighter-only line of feat's to gain it back is a bloody terrible idea. No one thus far has offered me any compelling argument to the contrary other than "Fighters need help".

We agree on that. What we disagree on is that fighter only armor-training is a solution. Nick Fury said it best:

https://31.media.tumblr.com/ce9d82ce5f5f0a935c3b96ba71e1f269/tumblr_inline_n9gf6xDd1F1sxyymu.gif

TheDr0wRanger

10-15-2015, 12:13 AM

i think the new fighter feats are pretty well implemented. they add some uniqueness only available to fighter (something desperately needed now that keen edge is the worst of the BUNCH) and are tiered without forcing a linear progression allowing you a great degree of optimization.

if these feats were accessible to everyone, then pretty much everyone would take the champion feat and ignore the rest, and thered be no advantage provided to fighters. do you honestly expect many pure fighters to take all four feats of either of these lines? i know i probably (almost certainly) wont be, unless theres some significant mp added to kensei and i dont feel the need to have 9 mp feats.

I'm replying to you in lieu of the 3 other people who said the same thing.

Creating more feats for everyone only allows linear power growth got non-fighters until they have used up all of their feats, which occurs LONG before fighters have run out of feats. Once that cap is reached, fighters start getting a bigger and bigger advantage from their number of feats. If there are 12-15 totally solid melee feats, everyone but a fighter is going to have to make choices and sacrifices, where fighters will get to just take every one of them, if they want. Which is in keeping with the flavor described, wherein fighters are really good at melee, man-at-arms combat. Same can be done with archery, especially since everything that currently wields a bow is pressed for feats already. More meaningful feats means more options for everyone, more things they can't take that fighters can.

The best part is this avoids needless exclusionary feats that are far more in keeping with the way a Paladin is made, and the fact that if they are fighter only feats their balance will take a back seat, whereas the devs will stay on top of a widely-used feat list.

This is really not complicated, if a good feat list that is larger than the number of feats available to non-fighter classes is presented, the advantage in the feat game is with fighters. In the current game where a Tempest can get every worthwhile melee feat, and an AA can get every bow feat than has major impact, fighters can't compete because they don't have the enhancements of the specialist trees, but they also don't have any feats to pick up that slack, since they don't have important feats available to them that the other classes don't also have. The way to give fighters the edge isn't in fighter-only feats, that creates a situation where you have undesirable feats that get taken a lot because they are all there is to take. Instead, let them be able to afford A and B feats for whatever fighting style, where the other classes in that fighting style have to take A or B.

Think this way, if A and B feats both gave approximately equal value, the fighter gets both and the other class gets A, then the fighter is ahead by whatever value B has. He's got as much power advantage over the other class as he would have if he took B and they got nothing.

Malusny

10-15-2015, 12:15 AM

Thar

10-15-2015, 12:25 AM

Actually with a good crit range this is excellent against red and purple names

I dont think the game would be served by making other T3's as good as Mortal Fear. Nerfing mortal fear and making the other T3's not completely useless could go a long way however. I mean who is ever going to make Greensteel if it isn't better than Mortal Fear? And how can it better than Mortal Fear if isn't just instant death on a Vorpal?

vorpal is 20 only, not on crit so a good crit range is only good for half of that recipe. not enough to make it good when neg energy is blocked or heals so much since undead has to be everywhere.

mortal fear is on hit damage which was the only one worth building the extra damage it does helps to pull it ahead. As the Devs have said, new weapons may have a comparable dps to mortal fear. it's just the first. Anyway back to my point, make the others useful then it would have been used. take it away and then you use the below or keep it tier 2 as tier 3 is garbage for most combo's.

your probably thinking of the other useful recipe,

Crippling Flames: On Crit: 135 to 325 Fire Damage. On Hit: 5% chance to apply 2 Negative Levels.

all the nerf this nerf that... let people have fun in the game. no fun, then no more player base. no player base no money. no money no game. it's not that hard to understand. the lack of lfm's should warn people.

although the negative levels are argueablely useless at epic levels due to the quick regen.

Zakharov

10-15-2015, 12:32 AM

These seem like very positive changes. Adding inherent magic resistance to all armor types by default was silly and overboard. If anything I would dial back more than what you've listed.

One concern I have is the new tactical feats - they seem too good. You say the goal is someone who invests heavily can get 95% success even against a high save opponent. As a general philosophy I don't think 95% success for any ability or spell should be easily attainable against a challenging opponents strong save.

I think highly specialized, heavily invested abilities should reach that lvl against weak or even average saves, but not strong saves.

Overall I find this topic encouraging, everyone I played with basically got bored and left. The exodus started with underdark and ended with armor up. Maybe this & epic shroud will bring some people back.

Thar

10-15-2015, 12:36 AM

Nick Fury said it best:

https://31.media.tumblr.com/ce9d82ce5f5f0a935c3b96ba71e1f269/tumblr_inline_n9gf6xDd1F1sxyymu.gif

ha ha ha... i need to learn how to do that.

Axeyu

10-15-2015, 12:52 AM

2) Melee monks, already nerfed hard, are going to be even worse. Yay?

What? Unarmed will look relativley better now that other classes has gotten their far superior crit modifiers nerfed. Heavy armor nerf is also good for monks.
I wouldn't worry so much about losing 6 MP.

PermaBanned

10-15-2015, 12:59 AM

You are looking at roughly 150 dps from stricken + 1.4k dps from consume + 4233 dps from eldritch blast - 5.6k dps. This is the absolute max end of it. There are a vast collection of builds on the forums that do upwards of 7000 dps.What about the additional 3d6 Light damage/attack from ES tier 4? And/or the additional 3d6 Light damage/attack from ES lvl 18 core? And/or the additional 2d6 Chaotic damage from {enhancement I forgot the name of} vs targets marked by Consume? (iirc all of those scale w/Spellpower too.) Are any or all of those part of your absolute max?

archerforever

10-15-2015, 01:07 AM

I ran warlock numbers before and after and I feel the reduction is too light. Warlocks are outperforming many classes and builds on their first life with nothing really special going on. Yeah, it is a reduction, but not enough of one.

I agree with you. Warlock is totally overpowered on heroic and still very efficient on epic.

Thud

10-15-2015, 01:18 AM

Keen
This loot effect now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

I'm not sure why you want to do a blanket revision. Why not Keen I-V that adds 1-5 critical threat range? Isn't that how the system works now? I can see why random loot would be easier to generate with this system, but what about named items with exceptional ranges like the Carniflex and SoS? Are these items that I've spent years collecting for leveling different toons just going to become trash? That would be very sad.

Malusny

10-15-2015, 01:23 AM

archerforever

10-15-2015, 01:25 AM

or they could change the recipies so something else is worth making. the other recipies for tier 3 are mostly junk with an exception or two. ie

Body Breaker: On Hit: 5% Chance Fortitude Save -5, Sunder Attempt. who would make this as a tier 5... seriously...

Burning Emptiness: On Vorpal: 55 to 110 Fire Damage every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. On Crit: 108 to 260 Negative Energy Damage. - looks good until you see the on vorpal part...

In my opinion, only Mortal fear is good as tier 3 with TF weapons ( not speaking about casters ). All others tier 3 are junk for fighters ( melee and ranged )

Lycurgus

10-15-2015, 01:29 AM

I agree with you. Warlock is totally overpowered on heroic and still very efficient on epic.

I've run warlock solo on EE in ToEE, Stormhorns, and Wheloon and compared it against pure druid, pure wizard, and pure paladin. I've run the more recent chains too, but they're candy compared to the three mentioned. Pure wizard is abysmal, even running in draconic for a whopping energy burst every 30 seconds against held mobs. Druid looks ok with a decent earthquake at first glance, but the dps is horrid. Pure paladin just kills things, not surprisingly, because it's the only one of the classes to have received a pass. My warlock pally splash is ~25% behind the completion time of a pure THF paladin. So how is a warlock OP next to melee on epic levels?

Thud

10-15-2015, 01:30 AM

Dear devs,

Would you please permaban all the people who say, 'I'm canceling my subscription if you do...'?

Much thanks ;)

blerkington

10-15-2015, 01:31 AM

Grailhawk

10-15-2015, 01:45 AM

In my opinion, only Mortal fear is good as tier 3 with TF weapons ( not speaking about casters ). All others tier 3 are junk for fighters ( melee and ranged )

Please explain how an extra 230 avg damage on crit from Crippling Flame is junk?

Magil

10-15-2015, 01:47 AM

Greetings.
Hello.

Keen
This loot effect now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.
I assume this is going to affect Impact as well.

Armor Changes
The amount of Physical Resist Rating that armor provides has been changed.
* Heavy armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 2) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Medium armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1.5) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Light Armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
Fixed a bug where players were getting Physical Resist Rating for armor with which they were not proficient.

(Note: The Physical Resist Rating and Magical Resist Rating offered by shields remain unchanged.)

When the PRR system was introduced, many were upset that Mithral wasn't taken into account for the PRR formula.

With that said, is there a possibility of setting it up so that rather than the weight of the armor (for proficiency), it was set up to reflect the type of armor based on weight class? For example, a Mithral Full Plate would still be classified as Medium Armor for proficiency reasons, but would grant Heavy Armor levels of PRR?

Heavy Armor Training
Requires Fighter Level 2
You gain +3 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 6
You gain +6 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Master
Requires Fighter Level 10
You gain +9 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Champion
Requires Fighter Level 14
You gain +12 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Notes: All Heavy Armor feats stack for a total of +30. The lower level feats are not prerequisites for the higher level feats so a higher level fighter could save a feat if he/she wanted to skip Heavy Armor Training and forego the +3 and still have access to Heavy Armor Champion.
"The questing knight, the conquering overlord, the king's champion, the elite foot soldier, the hardened mercenary and the bandit king - all are fighters."

As expressed in the forum's class subforum section for Fighters, it's worth noting that they come in a large variety of weapon and armor configurations. An adventurer who prefers to fight with a single sword and some light armor to stay nimble, all the way up to a hammer and shield using tank, would all be considered fighters.

Would you consider a means to have this extend to beyond heavy armor, perhaps to a lesser degree? Say... 1/4/7/10 for light armor, and 2/5/8/11 for medium? The total would end up around 22 and 26 respectively, which shouldn't be too crazy, considering the change to the PRR formula being simplified to lower it down?

I do not know what awaits future Fighter enhancement changes, but as the Stalwart Defender almost requires medium or heavy armor and / or a shield, and the Vanguard's almost exclusive focus on the shield, I am hoping that the Kensei will be given more options that help fill in these blanks.

Just some thoughts.

J-mann

10-15-2015, 01:49 AM

I ran warlock numbers before and after and I feel the reduction is too light. Warlocks are outperforming many classes and builds on their first life with nothing really special going on. Yeah, it is a reduction, but not enough of one.

Did they also consider that with the IC changes, most weapon builds will be taking a decent sized nerf? Not to mention the armor changes.....

Souless

10-15-2015, 02:07 AM

Yes. To all of these questions. All of these are fiddly numbers which are neither inherently better higher or lower.

Another perspective would be to flip each of these: Does adding PRR/MRR to all armor automatically make DDO better or "increase options"? If barbarians didn't take damage and never needed healing would it be a better game? Does increasing DPS automatically enhance the game experience?

Every one of these questions is about finding the right spot across a gray scale. Getting the exact right answer is always going to be quite difficult. Getting a group of people (developers, players, both) to agree on the exact right answer verges on impossible, so we can only do the best we can.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "fiddly numbers", I am basing my comments on numbers that I actually see in game. You take 1,273 points of electrical damage after 30 points were removed by your electric resist. Your health is reduced to -466 hp's you were killed by the electric trap. The following buffs "..." have been removed from you. And that was before the PRR/MRR pass that was designed to "balance" the over powered evasion.

Your proposal here is to remove PRR/MRR from armor which will require me to splash rogue or monk thus limiting my options. So as you say, lets flip it: does adding PRR/MRR to all (nice little word that "all" right there) armor make DDO better or "increase options?" To this I answer yes, I am playing a pure level 20 barb AND a pure level 20 paladin. Options I never had when evasion was required for a toons survivability. Every melee build I had prior to the PRR/MRR addition had an evasion splash.

So, I'll ask again: How does removing these PRR/MRR increase my options or make DDO better? You say "yes" but history says "no".

Moving on to barb heal on kill proc. As I have said I have a vested interest here (I have a pure barb) so I am opposed to this change. In my post, I never suggested that bards don't take damage as you are suggesting in your response. Damage that is mitigated by the heal on kill proc. Also, if you think that barbs "never" need healing you are not watching/listening to players playing the same game I am. When hit, I take fully 1/3 of my total hp's in EE content by trash mobs. So I'll give you some Fiddly numbers: lets by way of example say that a barb with 1200 hp's is surrounded by 5 trash mobs and he cleaves. That barb will get 5 chances to get healed 1x. Assuming his DPS is high enough. Meanwhile, those trash mobs are not standing there like the fat kobold you are taking your primary data from (they are hitting back, HARD). You will be healed, and lets go crazy here and say for 200 points. However, you will be hit by all of those mobs around you doing in the neighborhood of 1500 points of damage. Since I can add, and trash mobs can subtract, what you will be looking at is your stone floating in place. Barbs that can't be self sufficient will fall by wayside thus reducing my DDO Options.

So. I'll ask again. Do you really think that reducing the healing proc. will enhance my game experience? Again, lets flip it: will barb that never (once again nice little word here) need healing make for a better game? Providing balance? You say "yes" but history says "no". Barbs will begin to collect dust again as no one in today's game will waste time healing a mana sponge.

On to DPS which I didn't address, (except maybe you took my warlock comment as a direct question about DPS) so you answered. While I don't think increasing DPS will automatically enhance my experience, I know that reducing it will deflate it. Although you never come right out and say that increase DPS doesn't enhance your experience you suggest it with the way you have responded here. You say "no" but history says "yes". Players continuously build/plan/play to improve the character's output.

Nuff said.

The Bytcher~

Lycurgus

10-15-2015, 02:09 AM

Dear devs,

Would you please permaban all the people who say, 'I'm canceling my subscription if you do...'?

Much thanks ;)

Maybe add the people who note that Pantheon:Rise of the Fallen is going into alpha this year?

Avocado

10-15-2015, 02:29 AM

Keen
This loot effect now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

Sev~

I assume this will be similar for Impact weapons. I am curious how Impact will affect shields and more specifically tower shields. Tower shields +1 +2 or +3 bonus to range?

All around these changes seem fair.

bluemagexp

10-15-2015, 02:36 AM

First of all in regards to balance changes while I understand the importance of maintaining game balance, what I don't think is understood is that there are two types of players out there. One is the player who values the "fair fight" a chance of dying and failing a quest, the other is the player who wants to be super powerful. I play this game in the hopes of building a character that is survivable, can deal great damage, and if i wish to can solo epic elite quests. I am in the super powerful category. When I play video games in general I get more fun out of turning on God mode as opposed to dying and continuing tedious amounts of times. I realize I am in the minority but I am not alone. I do enjoy the other side of playing too but I prefer "God Mode" over the two types. As John Carmack the creator of DOOM eloquently said "video games should be made so that people feel like they are gods in their own little universes."

So when making balance changes it is important to note that these two types of players exist out there and each side should be considered when making balance changes.

While I agree one should be proficient in armor before receiving the benefit of prr and mrr I do not agree with the loss of mrr when wearing armor. I like to play Eldritch knights as wizards and sorcerers using armor. Armor as it currently used is key in making that type of tree viable. My main character Jasonius Goodheart had great success as a sun elf wizard 18 1 cleric 1 rogue splash Eldritch Knight. I am working on perfecting the eldritch knight build since I am told that currently there is no viable Eldritch Knight build and I believe now that I can prove this to be incorrect. Mrr is important to survivability so I would prefer this not be removed from armor.

Divine Grace should not be changed at all. I understand it rewards splash builds but why remove such a reward which encourages multiclassing? If the problem is that you have to be a paladin to great saves and other builds want great saves why not simply make a feat that all characters can access?

PermaBanned

10-15-2015, 02:58 AM

Dear devs,

Would you please permaban all the people who say, 'I'm canceling my subscription if you do...'?

Much thanks ;)Now, now... Don't be so hasty ;) I recognize several of the soon-to-be-canceled/departed as having threatened the same regarding other things in the not too distant past. Making a little collection of quotes for future amusement (like when the next thing rolls around that has the same folks threatening to leave yet again) ^^

BadgerFoot

10-15-2015, 03:06 AM

I play with a group of friends (5 of us in total) on a weekly basis. Between us we've been playing since the start.

I am hoping that "balance" doesn't mean a desire to have all non-spell casters with the same dps regardless of the approach. There should be differences. Ranged classes for example should do less damage than melee.

Here's my take on each suggestion

Holy Sword
If we end up with a Paladin being the best archer then it's broken. If you want to be a specialist archer then play a Ranger. If you want to be a different sort of Archer then by all means play a Paladin, or a Fighter or whatever. The best class in the game for firing arrows should be a Ranger. The same applies to two weapon fighting. I'm unsure about the shield.

This is a good change.

Blood Strength
If we end up with Barbarians that just rage through everything healing themselves continuously without any assistance then it's broken. Our current life has just hit level 14 and we have a Barbarian who has only just started healing so I've not got personal experience. The evidence from others is that it's broken.

This is a good change

Critical Rage
Criticals have been too prevelant for a long time. I had an acrobat / monk staff wielder a few lives back and it was just silly. Far too powerful.

This is a good change

Two Weapon Fighting
I've not got personal experience with this since melee power was introduced. It depends on the DPS difference between TWF, THF and SWF. TWF should have higher DPS than the others as the others have other advantages.

I don't have the data to decide how good or bad this change is.

Doubleshot
We have a ranger in the current party. He's highly effective with paralyzing arrows but we're only level 14. He's not killing anywhere near as much as the Barbarian, the Bard, or the Bard / Fighter / Rogue, but that's as it should be. If you manage to get doublestrike that high I see no reason to limit it.

This is a good change.

Repeating Crossbows
A bug fix.

This is obviously a good change

Manyshot
More damage rather than more arrows. The use of BAB for the calculation makes sense to me rather than just being a flat increase as it should scale with character ability. However, I'm don't see what "balance" issue this is addressing. Suggestions have been made that this might be addressing lag which is a good thing.

I'm neutral on this change.

Ten Thousand Stars
See Manyshot

Mechanical Reloader
No experience with this. In general I'm happy with any nerf as the character power is now a long way above monster power.

This is a good change

Pulverizer
See Critical Rage

This is a good change

Improved Critical
See Critical Rage.

This is a good change

Keen
See Critical Rage.

This is a good change

Armor Changes + Tactical ...
We had a paladin in our party when the MRR change came in. He just walked through all traps and laughed in the face of spell damaging monsters. Far too powerful. There should be disadvantages plus advantages to wearing armor. Just as there should be disadvantages and advantages to not wearing armor. I think that PRR is in itself enough of an advantage for just wearing armor. Feats to make it better sounds very sensible. Give the Fighter an advantage over other melee classes. Make the armor wearing melee classes have differences. The Paladin has the saves, the Fighter gets the resistance.

This is good change

Divine Grace
Excellent. Paladins are meant to have good saves. Sorcerors are not. We shouldn't expect every character to only fail every save in the game on a 1.

This is a good change.

Eldritch Blast
Not had a warlock in our party. There is no interest in playing a class that just kills everything by holding down the mouse button. I suspect the nerf isn't sufficient as I still have zero interest in playing one.

This is a good change although it doesn't go far enough.

Hobgoblin

10-15-2015, 03:07 AM

Dear devs,

Would you please permaban all the people who say, 'I'm canceling my subscription if you do...'?

Much thanks ;)

dear devs, would you please permaban anyone that is asking to permaban anyone?

it messes with my inner equilibrium

Hobgoblin

10-15-2015, 03:08 AM

i am just going to leave this here.

i like seeing people up in arms, and encourage people to speak up for what they believe in.

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

dylan thomas

phalaeo

10-15-2015, 03:08 AM

Barbs will begin to collect dust again as no one in today's game will waste time healing a mana sponge.

The Bytcher~

*sigh*

The Bytcher's Former Cleric~

IronClan

10-15-2015, 03:09 AM

These changes are tone deaf, uneven and poorly thought out in the extreme, I am violently opposed to most of them and feel they will directly and substantially reduce my enjoyment of the game.

If you are actually soliciting feedback on them and there's a chance this disaster can be averted then my feedback follows please keep in mind that as a player over 5 years I am emotionally invested in the game unlike the Dev's who it's mostly just another job for, so it may be hard to understand my passion for the subject. To you this is a daily grind you've been doing for a year or so: for me it's a hobby that has maintained my intense interest for 5 years.

We hate Ironclans Dwarves (okay that's not what he explicitly said but)

Okay well thanks for nerfing most of my favorite Alts into oblivion.

What do I mean?
Holy Sword change nerfs Sword and Board hard (Vanguard shield damage is reduced to the point of not being worth spending those big chunks of AP on) guess what my Vanguard is? Yes a Dwarf, oh and if that's not enough he uses a Dwarven weapon:

Improved critical change is horrible and Nerfs Pick, War Hammer and Axes very heavily. Guess what weapons Dwarves use? That's right Picks, War Hammers and Axes. Now you could say Warhammer retains some ground due to Pulverizor but:

The change to Pulverizor pigeon holes my Dwarven toons into Warhammer and LD destiny just to get back near to were he was. And it makes it the defacto no other choice possible pigeonhole for Staff builds. Which shocker I have 1 of (though not a Dwarf... so there's that) and he wasn't trying to be in LD, but you'll have made any other choice clearly and obviously inferior.

It was already pretty hard to choose a Dwarf over Human it was a flavor choice already, and now you're going to make Human (khopesh) the defacto only choice insurmountable.

The nerf to Improved critical is uncalled for and completely mind boggling do you guys think Falchions Rapiers Scimmys and Khopeshes need HELP to be the best weapons in the game? THEY ALREADY ARE!!! Why are they keeping their Profile but all the lesser weapons that are flavor choices unless they have a named weapon with expanded profile are losing out?

In many cases these changes MAKE EXISTING PROBLEMS WORSE.

Khopesh being dominant gets more dominant
High natural crit range being dominant is strengthened by weakening poor natural crit profiles
Poor weapon choices right now are poorer after these changes
Poor race choices right now are worse choices
Blunt weapon users are pigionholed into LD destiny
Acrobat is nerfed hard and they were only "just right" they are also pigeonholed
Vanguard was "just right" but is nerfed hard
Bow using Paladins which weren't by any means over powered are destroyed completely
Paladin TWF is pointless and clearly inferior, not "balanced" just CLEARLY INFERIOR. easy choices are not compelling choices.
Evasion is back baby...
Kiting is BACK BABY! The ranged power and animation speedups already had kiting back to Pre-balance pass dominant playstyle, now with these changes it's even stronger than pre balance pass... no reason to melee anything, when you can do just as much damage to it while you kite it.
You'll need to kite anyway as you'll lose some PRR and all your MRR if you're a heavy armor DPS melee, so might as well do it with a ranged weapon.

The Improved critical change is one of the most mind boggling things you guys have ever proposed, if you're trying to get the last dregs of the player base to file out the door quickly so Turbine can save some D&D licensing fees then this round of head scratchers is probably a safe bet.

All in all this round of changes is so poorly thought out and bizarre that it might rank up there with Sony's NGE for terrible game worsening player base losing changes, of course you've got a lot less players to get rid of so it'll never have quite that impact, nor is it anywhere near as extensive, but it doesn't need to be... it's of similarly poor design and disruptive nature.

Fighter Only Feats? allowing +20 to tactics? These don't fit D&D at all they are a heavy handed affront and another step in making a rock paper scissors game out of DDO. If you want to use Tactics you'll need to be Fighter... Of the inelegant ham fisted changes that have happened recently this is the most spectacularly "back the dump truck up" of them all.

20 melee power set bonus to try and get people to care about ToEE weapons and armor upgrade system? This is worse.
7000 heal amp and 8992 hit points in barbarian? This is worse...
20 Double strike because you went from level 17 to level 18? Okay that's pretty **** bad design ... maybe that's actually worse...

Fighter only feats? Why? Are you transparently trying to make all the classes rock paper scissors? Why not just change fighters name to "Control Fighter" and get rid of the pretense that you're not trying to turn DDO into NWN.

What are these changes for? All those "casual gamers" you'll lure over from candy crush? With "every class does one thing" design, and all the good weapons are obvious choices? Is that the point? Those casuals wont be able to hack the FPS control scheme and will leave when "undead are hard to kill" (remember the impetus for ghostbane? This is more flavor destroying ghostbane IMO)... meanwhile the core audience of the game that's spent 3 years waiting for an endgame is being given the shoulder and told for the umpteenth time to buy an LR from the store, repec into BACK into last years kiting builds and forget all that melee gear and heavy armor we've already crafted looted or rerolled chests for?

No. Take it away. Do not want.

PermaBanned

10-15-2015, 03:09 AM

Hi,

Regarding the MRR changes, I don't think removing it from armour altogether is a good move.

In the past, I've stated that I think it's too easy to get very good damage reduction via PRR and MRR in the current game, and I still stand by that.

However, I think like what was done with PRR, MRR should have been downgraded, not removed.

Neither of my two characters have significant amounts of MRR, so I'm saying this purely for the sake of people who prefer heavy and medium armour builds. It will make very little difference to me what you do here.

The combination of low saves and poor resistance to magical damage is a pretty serious weakness for some HA builds, and it's not one I think we should be reinstating.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater on this one. Let people who like tanky builds remain somewhat defensively viable in more difficult EE content.

Thanks.Actually, I think dropping the MRR makes total sense. Having all armor innately protect/mitigate vs magic spells seemed a bit silly. Having armor protect/mitigate vs plain ol' physical damage is proper. IMO, this is how it should've been from the beginning of armor up: choice of Med/Hvy Armor for physical protection; or Cloth/Lt armor for Evasion (protection/mitigation vs most traps & spells).

As a general comment to all the folks saying these are too heavy-handed, my take on it is this: I'd rather they (potentially over) nerf once, then rebuff a bit if needed than to nerf a little and then nerf a little more. If the loss of base PRR and all MRR is too much of a survivability hit to armor warers they can always return some of either/both; I'd rather they do that than do a small nerf and potentially decide it was too small and nerf again.

GroundhogDay

10-15-2015, 03:14 AM

mobilemuppet

10-15-2015, 03:16 AM

Overpowered, underpowered I don't care.
What I do care about is spending years farming items as well as mats such as TF ings just to watch my TF hand axe get nerfed.
I have not got the time or resources to have to create new weapons after spending over a year grinding to get 1 finished item.
Just do stuff right first time and stop f#@£king things up for the majority who are non power gamers .

Losing the will to keep playing as it's change,nerf after change, nerf......

mikarddo

10-15-2015, 03:20 AM

The increase to ranged power will help mitigate some of the loss of damage that comes in the form of reduced shots (and all their goodies). However I know this change will reduce overall dps for ranged by a bit. But until Lamannia is up, no one can say how much the change will actually matter.

I know in dps tests before, I was dropping 100k kobolds in less than 18 seconds. So if it doubles to 36, I would ask for a bigger increase in ranged power. If it goes to 20, I would say nothing. If it goes to 25, I would ask for something. Either more ranged power, or some more doubleshot.

Not revert to its massive lag inducing 260+ arrow-ness that it is now.

You completely missed the point. The damage will be about the same if you do a short 100k fight against a red named at level 28 (at lower levels it will be lower though). But, exactly because we will be getting fewer but harder hits the number of procs will go way down meaning a huge nerf to number of vorpals and hence number of adrenalines. To compensate Manyshot should add an increased vorpal range for its duration.

mikarddo

10-15-2015, 03:24 AM

Agreed. My previous life (a month ago) was a moncher. Neither 10k nor manyshot came with lag.

I have been a monkcher for more than a year and never once have I noticed extra lag from Mantshot or 10k.

losian2

10-15-2015, 03:26 AM

Trying to catch up only about a days worth of posts with some thoughts...

1. Yes. In retrospect the tech used for favored weapons is fairly brittle and hard to extend and use for other things. For some time it's something I'd like to rework with time, but it just hasn't made it to the top of priorities. It would be quite time consuming to do and somewhat error-prone since it would largely require redoing the entire "favored weapon" system and all feats / enhancements that relate to them.
2. Making Holy Sword only affect your deity's favored weapons (per se) is not definitely an improvement (or definitely welcome by players).

We still discussing changes of course and explore options.

That suspicion is correct with the current proposal.

There are some things we're discussing and considering with things like Knife Specialization and Swashbuckling (which are similar kinds of things).

Nope. Though posting around 8am our time may make you feel like we haven't posted much in the twelve hours prior to that - that would be true!

We've had some discussions along these lines, and in the abstract mathematical sense I've argued from your position in some cases - PRR absolutely is percentage based and theoretically could be created in a way that doesn't require increasing with leveling.

However, the most common current feedback (but certainly not the only feedback!) we get is that epic is too easy in some cases, and heroic is far too easy in most cases.

Some of those changes are already in progress.

I *really* hope you guys are looking closely at in-game data. Epic will be easy, and heroic will be way too easy, for characters on their Nth life with every raid item available at every level while leveling up. Many lower-life, or first lifers, have plenty of challenge on many of the quests when running it on hard/elite and not having done it a billion times. Be cautious you don't overcompensate for a handful of people with dozens of PL/EPL feats, and totally leave all the newer or less-PL-endowed players, getting stomped..

I mean, the "too easy" argument is always a double edged sword. People who think games are "too easy" never want to build an non-optimum character, or take off an item, the game has to cater to their character's endless growth, nevermind if it takes a dump on newer players.

"The game is too easy" translates more readily into "cater the game to my character's power level, however intended or thematic it may or may not be."

That people are so worried about the change to ONE SINGLE SPELL for paladin clearly highlights how broken it is. Period. That's just silly. And it emphasizes what I'm sayin' - the game isn't always "too easy" if you don't cram all this nonsense into builds that make no sense just to more or less break the system.. but that's also part of DDOs appeal.. but you can't really be surprised when it's "too easy." :P The game has to be playable by first and second life characters who don't exactly have every little thing about their build perfected..

WNxDaCraw

10-15-2015, 03:33 AM

These changes are tone deaf, uneven and poorly thought out in the extreme, I am violently opposed to most of them and feel they will directly and substantially reduce my enjoyment of the game.

If you are actually soliciting feedback on them and there's a chance this disaster can be averted then my feedback follows please keep in mind that as a player over 5 years I am emotionally invested in the game unlike the Dev's who it's mostly just another job for, so it may be hard to understand my passion for the subject. To you this is a daily grind you've been doing for a year or so: for me it's a hobby that has maintained my intense interest for 5 years.

Okay well thanks for nerfing most of my favorite Alts into oblivion.

What do I mean?
Holy Sword change nerfs Sword and Board hard (Vanguard shield damage is reduced to the point of not being worth spending those big chunks of AP on) guess what my Vanguard is? Yes a Dwarf, oh and if that's not enough he uses a Dwarven weapon:

Improved critical change is horrible and Nerfs Pick, War Hammer and Axes very heavily. Guess what weapons Dwarves use? That's right Picks, War Hammers and Axes. Now you could say Warhammer retains some ground due to Pulverizor but:

The change to Pulverizor pigeon holes my Dwarven toons into Warhammer and LD destiny just to get back near to were he was. And it makes it the defacto no other choice possible pigeonhole for Staff builds. Which shocker I have 1 of (though not a Dwarf... so there's that) and he wasn't trying to be in LD, but you'll have made any other choice clearly and obviously inferior.

It was already pretty hard to choose a Dwarf over Human it was a flavor choice already, and now you're going to make Human (khopesh) the defacto only choice insurmountable.

The nerf to Improved critical is uncalled for and completely mind boggling do you guys think Falchions Rapiers Scimmys and Khopeshes need HELP to be the best weapons in the game? THEY ALREADY ARE!!! Why are they keeping their Profile but all the lesser weapons that are flavor choices unless they have a named weapon with expanded profile are losing out?

In many cases these changes MAKE EXISTING PROBLEMS WORSE.

Khopesh being dominant gets more dominant
High natural crit range being dominant is strengthened by weakening poor natural crit profiles
Poor weapon choices right now are poorer after these changes
Poor race choices right now are worse choices
Blunt weapon users are pigionholed into LD destiny
Acrobat is nerfed hard and they were only "just right" they are also pigeonholed
Vanguard was "just right" but is nerfed hard
Bow using Paladins which weren't by any means over powered are destroyed completely
Paladin TWF is pointless and clearly inferior, not "balanced" just CLEARLY INFERIOR. easy choices are not compelling choices.
Evasion is back baby...
Kiting is BACK BABY! The ranged power and animation speedups already had kiting back to Pre-balance pass dominant playstyle, now with these changes it's even stronger than pre balance pass... no reason to melee anything, when you can do just as much damage to it while you kite it.
You'll need to kite anyway as you'll lose some PRR and all your MRR if you're a heavy armor DPS melee, so might as well do it with a ranged weapon.

The Improved critical change is one of the most mind boggling things you guys have ever proposed, if you're trying to get the last dregs of the player base to file out the door quickly so Turbine can save some D&D licensing fees then this round of head scratchers is probably a safe bet.

All in all this round of changes is so poorly thought out and bizarre that it might rank up there with Sony's NGE for terrible game worsening player base losing changes, of course you've got a lot less players to get rid of so it'll never have quite that impact, nor is it anywhere near as extensive, but it doesn't need to be... it's of similarly poor design and disruptive nature.

Fighter Only Feats? allowing +20 to tactics? These don't fit D&D at all they are a heavy handed affront and another step in making a rock paper scissors game out of DDO. If you want to use Tactics you'll need to be Fighter... Of the inelegant ham fisted changes that have happened recently this is the most spectacularly "back the dump truck up" of them all.

20 melee power set bonus to try and get people to care about ToEE weapons and armor upgrade system? This is worse.
7000 heal amp and 8992 hit points in barbarian? This is worse...
20 Double strike because you went from level 17 to level 18? Okay that's pretty **** bad design ... maybe that's actually worse...

Fighter only feats? Why? Are you transparently trying to make all the classes rock paper scissors? Why not just change fighters name to "Control Fighter" and get rid of the pretense that you're not trying to turn DDO into NWN.

What are these changes for? All those "casual gamers" you'll lure over from candy crush? With "every class does one thing" design, and all the good weapons are obvious choices? Is that the point? Those casuals wont be able to hack the FPS control scheme and will leave when "undead are hard to kill" (remember the impetus for ghostbane? This is more flavor destroying ghostbane IMO)... meanwhile the core audience of the game that's spent 3 years waiting for an endgame is being given the shoulder and told for the umpteenth time to buy an LR from the store, repec into BACK into last years kiting builds and forget all that melee gear and heavy armor we've already crafted looted or rerolled chests for?

No. Take it away. Do not want.

This is the wisest person I have heard in a while. Please put him in charge. He eloquently states my position and that of my guild mates and friends. If these changes go through then turbine can use the old servers for the next game they intend to bring in. NWN sucks and so will this game.

BadgerFoot

10-15-2015, 03:36 AM

Dear Devs,

Please enlighten me and tell me who will play a Paladin Vanguard after these changes? What will happen is that everybody will start switching to other classes and nobody will doing a Sword and Board builds because you nerfed the holy sword twice already and now Shields will not be affected by it. What is the point of having that spell at all then?

If you have to nerf the Holy Sword or the Paladin builds significantly, take away the Crit Range from it, leaving as it is the Crit Multiplier at least and allow the ranged oriented and shield oriented characters to still have some good use of that spell. Otherwise playing paladin will be absolutely useless.

(by the way, I played warlock recently and now I am playing a pure ranger and I still think that paladins should not be stripped off Holy Sword).

Cheers again.

I can answer that one for the Devs. Here are some examples

Me. I'm not interesting in playing the best character available. I'm interested in getting the most fun out of the character I've got
The 4 other members of the guild I'm in for the same reasons
A new player. I suspect that new players don't give a kobold's backside about which build 20 levels down the line is 2% better than which other build
Anyone who enjoys playing Paladins. There are some. I've seen posts on this forum

InsanityIsYourFriend

10-15-2015, 03:42 AM

*checks date* woo I'm in the clear!

Under the proposal, Improved Critical would offer a +1 to the critical threat range of a quarterstaff. So, a regular quarterstaff that is 20/x2 would become 19-20/x2, and a named quarterstaff with a natural crit range of 19-20 would become 18-20.
I personally am against this change (specifically because of some named weapons *looks at Sireth Spear of the Sky*) but please understand that now developers can more fine tune enhancements. This may mean some classes that have already been passed (looks at Thief Acrobat) that were balanced well due to improved critical working the way it did (looks at Improved Critical + Thief Acrobat giving Sireth a 13-20 critical crit range changing to a 16-20 crit range) could change to give higher amounts of critical range or multiplier. While currently this whole critical threat range looks like a giant greatclub bigger than that of the Scrag named the Nerfbat smashing into most of our builds (watches the Nerfbat destroy current Thief Acrobat character) it allows them to make more bonuses to crit range stack (looks at Pulverizer still not working with Sireth). This all hopefully means that character power can be more fine tuned to allow some weapons to work better (looks at quarterstaves being much weaker now) and less used weapons a moment to shine anew (looks at pretty new Falchion build on the horizon) while some old weapons continue to collect dust (looks at old +2 Wounding Heavy Pick of Puncturing with force critical and Dreamspitter). It has been a part of the game for many a year a rotation of weapons that are good and some that are overpowered and some that aren't great (looks at light hammer still being the worst weapon type in the game). Eventually maybe even you will be able to claim a weapon that shouldn't work, that has never worked, that could never work, somehow working (looks at shuriken) or be able to use a "weapon" as it should be used and excel at it (looks at handwraps one day in the future). One day your old shiny may work, maybe not, but delete it not just because it is not The Weapon of the Holy Grails (looks at Epic Sword of Shadow and its nerf) for one day whether you use it or not some kid will chat with you and talk about this "weak" weapon that he founds and you will realize it resembles a weapon you once obtained and were proud of, one that was King and is no longer, and you shall reminisce, and then you will kill the enemy with your shiny new +50 Vorpal Maul of +10 critical threat range, while the rogue plunges his +51 Spined Light Hammer of Deathness into the enemy's belly, and the monk does a Momentum Swing with his fists.

TL;DR: dislike change but knows it is necessary for future

dunklezhan

10-15-2015, 03:43 AM

I think the point is well made that fewer arrows DOES mean a lower number of on crit, on hit, and chance on hit effect procs, and that is a large part of the attractiveness of those high bursts periods for manyshot/10K stars.

I would be interested in seeing a dev response to that specific point as I don't think I've seen one here or in the AA thread. Is that loss factored into the balance changes in terms of overall damage output? I'm not sure the loss of temporary doubleshot penalty really is worth the loss of DPS when you start thinking of it this way, certainly my heroic archers aren't getting the kind of standing doubleshot figures you're talking about expecting people to have and the 'flurry' type figures I see on lootgen bows aren't enough to warrant using them over bows that just have another damage effect on them.

Apologies for reposting this, but it appears before Varg's last post and I think it may have been missed. I would still really like to see a dev acknowledgement of this outcome of the manyshot/10K stars balancing, and perhaps some reassurance that they have indeed thought about this in terms of looking the overall damage output during use of those abilities and whilst they're on cooldown.

WNxDaCraw

10-15-2015, 03:44 AM

I have been a monkcher for more than a year and never once have I noticed extra lag from Mantshot or 10k.

yes. I have run a thrower through 5 lives in the last 2 years. no lag from 10k stars. I also have a 6 year old Monkcher and never once has his abilities caused lag...if anything i lag from going into monk stance more than anything else...besides the lag beast that lives in DDO likes random monster spawns more that anything our characters do. Don't you remember how much better the lag got when they nerfed TWF years ago...said it was for lag. wrecked TWF for years and it had no noticeable effect on lag at the time, but trust use it really did...(snicker snicker)

Manganakus

10-15-2015, 03:53 AM

I disagree. Given that even on the forums more than half the posts about the IC/Keen changes show an incorrect understanding of A) how IC/keen works today and B) how it will work in these new changes, if you go with an open vote by the entire player base, you will have a bunch of people voting on changes who have no clue what the changes even mean. Or, even worse, are voting on them with an erroneous understanding.
If people don't understand the impact of changes, is either because they are stupid either Turbine explains them badly. On a very basic principle I exclude the first one, so it is Turbine's work to make things clear. It's one of the basic democracy' s pillar ("oh, let's get back to autocracy, people are too stupid to understand the marvel we expect for them...").

"I will vote for the holy sword change because it will make my 15/5 pally/rogue do even more DPS!"

People pay, people chose. It seems again is the argument is 'people are stupid, they'll just take what is at their very advantage'. I think, I may be wrong, people plays for the fun. DDo got the advantage of helping in that since there is no ladder or really developped RvR or PvP.
Respec a character every 4/6 month or so is not fun.

gwonbush

10-15-2015, 03:56 AM

Some people seem to say that the crit changes make Khopeshes more dominant than they already are, but this isn't actually the case with all classes. Paladins and Rangers actually have the gap for Rapiers, Scimitars and Kukris decrease when compared to Khopeshes. Currently, a Holy Sword type crit increase brings those 18-20/x2 weapons up to 13-20/x3 for 80% extra damage off of base, while Khopesh is 15-20/x4 for 90% extra damage. After the change, these weapons become 14-20/x3 for scimitars (70% extra) versus 16-20/x4 for Khopeshes (75% extra).

This lessening of the gap for these weapons is actually true for all classes, but the extra multiplier for the weapon is needed for scimitars to be able to close the gap. In fact, if you have no threat expansion at all and just a multiplier increase, both Khopeshes (17-20/x4) and Scimitars (15-20/x3) are at 60%

merkovah

10-15-2015, 05:01 AM

I've seen this idea presented so many times. It goes like

"People who are complaining are just wanting to keep their uber EE character the same and not get gimped."

Perhaps there are a couple of such individuals.

When I read the posts here, there are more people making valid points ... and those points are disregarded because of a false perspective that the person is ... "wanting to keep their uber character."

What I really see are people who care enough about the game to write and speak out.

It's like voting, except we don't really get a say in what is going to happen.

Funny thing is, as one of those people whose main character will be completely changed by these 'balances' and the changes to arcane archer ... and as I see many others have the same points as I have expressed here and in the arcane archer tread ...

we are not complaining.

We are pointing out legitimate issues with longbows and ranged combat. And critical profiles. And MRR. And other things I don't really pay attention to.

I understand it's easier for people to just write off "complainers" because its far easier to do that than actually listen and have a reasonable dialogue.

And considering the options of life and time ; I wouldn't rage quit DDO ... I just will end up doing other things until the game comes back around.

And I know many people who feel the same way, because we have lives and choices.

DDO isn't worth raging over. In my opinion its one of the most chill games ever, I really enjoy pugging and the randomness of quests.

It's also not worth the time if the game isn't fun. There are many of us who feel this way.

The evidence is in the shrinking player base .

Playing this game for six years, I've taken the time to post on these forums a total of 20 times. I've taken the time to respond about these changes, which is something MORE members of the community need to do.

This time was given because I care, as does everyone on this thread who has thought about and expressed their opinions and ideas.

And when people are derogatory and rude in response, I just wonder why you would take the time to be so thoughtless.

This isn't league of legends ... have respect for your fellow players.

draven1

10-15-2015, 05:14 AM

TWF line itself doesn't cause Over-Power at all. Because it's just 6 MP.

But,

Mortal fear with blitz(it causes instakill on hit when you have 100%+ helpless damage)
+ 24 Melee Power ToEE set(Too much from just 2 part of gear, isn't it?)
+ high PRR/MRR
+ Blood Strength(no resource required at all, in-battle self-healing that can hit 200+, & proc on every kill)
+ Storm Eye(+25 dmg with almost 0 cost because blood strength proc)
+ Frenzy & Death Frenzy(almost 0 cost because blood strength proc)
+ stacking melee power from different weapon focus feats (It's a bug, isn't it? It stacks even you aren't using proper weapon)
+ 2 crit range expansion with 19-20 crit multiplier from death frenzy
+ 15-20/x3 warhammer(no feat required khopesh)
+ knockdown immunity
+ semi-permanent displacement from multiple GS clicky
cause Over-Power.

These things are not separated ones, 1 class has these at once.
So, it's very obvious, these need adjustment.

Son_of_the_South

10-15-2015, 05:17 AM

I'm not going to go over what many have already stated. I'll try to keep my suggestions succinct.

Don't remove MRR from armour entirely. Be moderate (if you feel you absolutely must).

Don't change Manyshot as suggested, it's too severe a change (and it's likely people will just exploit Doubleshot next anyway). If you feel you absolutely must be moderate remember, many melee's have little 'burst' damage access and Manyshot is one good avenue to access this kind of damage at the moment. It will be tricky to build a great melee AND decent ranged Manyshot build now.

I'm not too phased with many of the other changes. The crit changes aren't great but, as I understand it, it seems this is what was always intended.

I read a lot of posts and don't comment on many. One thing I do notice is that there are a loud number of neigh-sayers who seem to suffer from tall-poppy syndrome. I have a completionist and two other characters with a number of PL's. It's not a lot compared to some but I've played this game enough to know that there are people who have the time to play the game for 30-50 hours/week (I was one for a short time before fatherhood, study and ever increasing work demands took priority) and the fact that they can carve up EE blindfolded while drinking root beer and watching re-runs of Star Trek in their mum's basement HAS NO IMPACT ON ME WHATSOEVER. I don't care that there are people who have the time to farm triple completionist heroic, epic and iconic past lives, run all the raids a billion times and get all the best gear. Good on 'em, it doesn't affect me so why does there seem to be so much angst about it and why does it seem to cause such furore? The game should be easy for these people; any game gets easier the time you invest in it. It seems unreasonable that a game that is able to change is built around the minority who range against the hard core players superiority and then these players cry out that it's too easy. It's rather ironic.

Why do we need so many drastic changes. I know a number of people who haven't commented on this thread who are so irate about this (and the continued string of nerfs) that they're close renouncing DDO and that would be a great shame for many reasons. I'm not that invested that I'm in this category (although I do love this game, am VIP and have been for a while) but I do feel their frustration.

A couple of posts up a guy called merkovah wrote a really good post - 100% with you mate, well said and 'here, here'.

SotS

Requiro

10-15-2015, 05:17 AM

I hope that you guys (by guys I mean Developers ;)) rethink Keen / Impact ability. It’s a great time for doing this. When IC feat do not double critical threat, there is no need for non stacking version of Keen / Impact. It’s not OP anymore.
I know that it’s against PnP lore, but for the sake of usefulness, just improve them. (suggestion coded below)

Keen I / Impact I - +1 critical threat range, that stack with IC feat.
Keen II / Impact II - +0,5[W] and +1 critical threat range, that stack with IC feat.
Keen III / Impact III - +1[W] and +1 critical threat range, that stack with IC feat.
Keen IV / Impact IV - +1,5[W] and +1 critical threat range, that stack with IC feat.
Ect.
Balance issue: Base price modifier for random generated weapons.

Same with IC feats. There is no need for coding that feat for each weapon type. The better, faster and easier (I think) solution is coding by base critical threat range or apply always first, before any other bonuses. (suggestion coded below)

Weapon with base critical threat : 20 - +1 critical threat range (thus 19-20)
Weapon with base critical threat : 19-20 - +2 critical threat range (thus 17-20)
Weapon with base critical threat : 18-20 - +3 critical threat range (thus 15-20)
Ect.

This suggestion will solve some problems, while leave the original intention from Devs:

Named weapon with improved Critical profile sustain designed critical threat.
Swashbuckling (and similar) do not need any redesign. Well, it need some work to recode Swashbuckling as bonus that override base critical threat range (or some work to recode IC feats, that apply always first). I don’t know if it’s more or less work.
Keen / Impact property give us more diversity, be useful ability again and lot’s of players will love this change. Also give you guys more way to design new weapon (or redesign old one)
Some of the old useless low level weapon with Keen ability, get auto buffed when you take IC feat. And could be viable option for leveling without any additional work from Devs.

The only problem that I see that you guys won’t implement this, is technical issue. And if that will be true, then I will be very sad :(

PpalP

10-15-2015, 05:21 AM

Does increasing DPS automatically enhance the game experience?

Yes of course! That will mean more time to do quest because I will kill more quickly, specially as TWF is very bad vs group of mobs. Also that saved time hitting the button mean more fun running more quest. So lowering my small DPS will make me wait more to clean a room full of mobs.

Also, again with TWF, remember that TWF line not only requires feats and DEX, require DOUBLE GRINDING if you wish TF weapons or simmilar, so TWF has drawbacks itself

AzureDragonas

10-15-2015, 05:25 AM

Holy Sword (Paladin)
This is now a spell that affects the paladin and buffs whatever melee weapon is being wielded in the main hand.
It no longer persists on your weapon but instead buffs the melee weapon you are holding in your main hand. (Yes, this buffs your two handed weapons.)
It no longer affects missile weapons.
It no longer can be used to buff off hand weapons or shields.
If you change weapons the spell will drop off the unequipped weapon and instead be applied to the newly equipped weapon.

This change as many told will kill multiple builds making investment of 14 palading at least worthless. If u really wanna leave best pal builds in game 15 pal 5x bladeforged with greatswords or mauls and kill all duals archers picks crossbow shield builds this is a a right path to do.

Critical Rage (Barbarian Ravager)
The bonus to critical threat range is now a competence bonus.

This decision was needed long time ago, why? just get 19-20 maul pick ravager and get legendary dreadnought and just run swinging 11-20 threat range maul on barbarian becouse why not.

Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Improved Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Greater Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.

As somone told duals y best dps feats in game. And for that we waste dozen of feats which requires lose benefits from other feats compared to other lines which requires just couple feats to take to get full benefit from line already.

Doubleshot values over 100% now have a chance of producing a third attack. The chance is equal to the amount the value exceeds 100. A doubleshot value of 130, for example, would always produce one extra shot and have a 30% chance to produce a third shot.

(Doublestrike will still cap at 100 for technical reasons.)

Repeating Crossbows and Doubleshot
Fixed a bug where Doubleshot was not being reduced for repeating crossbows. (Doubleshot chance is divided by 3 for repeating crossbows.)

Manyshot
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 20 seconds you add your (base attack bonus * 4) to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. This ability puts Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 2 minutes.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

Ten Thousand Stars
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 30 seconds you add your Wisdom ability score to your Ranged Power and you add your monk level * 5 to your Doubleshot. This ability puts Manyshot on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 1 minute.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

So you finnaly decided to kill monkarchers. With items and doubleshoot bonuses it means what lets say i go pure ranger at 18 what i have is 18 BAB which by default makes 72% doubleshoot and lets say all neat buffs we have. As it stands now at 18 i shoot up to 2 arrows? and at 30 up to 3? what kind of manyshoot is that. its just extra boost for already low chance to make with ranged power as only rreal benefit. Either fix by increasing sources where to get chances or redesign feat. With free 120 ranged power current slay arrow would get you just making shooting for 30+k per arrow just more viable. About thousand stars wisdom score.... so if i have lets say somehow 60 wis at 30 this feat gonna give me all 25 ranged power (ignoring you already offer manyshoot for 120 ranged power for free) and doubleshoot based on monk levels, even if ppl plays archers they all be 12+ monk and those who just not loyal enough gonna stop playing archers at all.

Pulverizer (Legendary Dreadnought)
The bonus to critical threat range for bludgeoning weapons is now an Insight bonus.

Improved Critical
These feats now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

Keen
This loot effect now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

In current ddo you can reach stupidly high crit chance how feats work now, but now this change will kill most of named items. why bother play named items with bigger threat if they lose in all ways now to thunderforged temple etc.
Here a better idea make Keen and imp crit feats GIVE bonus to weapons base range BEFORE other effects takes effect. Lets take my example from before
19-20 maul pick ravager and get legendary dreadnought and just run swinging 11-20 threat range maul on barbarian
makes 14-20 SAME WAY and named weapons like ardency silver bow and all others would keep theyr treat range and wont suffer this tweeak so hard. Also players who plays them feels reward for choosing them instead of GS thunder etc.

In shorter version imp treat makes 19-20 weapon to 17-20 and only then are added all other effects who changes treat range.

Armor Changes
The amount of Physical Resist Rating that armor provides has been changed.
* Heavy armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 2) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Medium armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1.5) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Light Armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
Fixed a bug where players were getting Physical Resist Rating for armor with which they were not proficient.

(Note: The Physical Resist Rating and Magical Resist Rating offered by shields remain unchanged.)

Yes some changes are needed but are any legit reason why need to remove magical resist rating? Reason why it was introduced was that you wanted let ppl play heavy armors without consider of feeling inferior to evasion build. Now this change would only give back old ages where tanks were standing in front lines to keep melee mobs from party and dying from magic damage becouse they have no evasion to even survive it. (Yep we still have champs who shred your hp with magic missiles for 500+ becouse you wont think they would get buff on extra damage on each spell they cast)

As a result of dialing back armor, some fighter only feats that will boost their effectiveness with armor and add to tactical DCs will also be included.

Tactical Training
Requires Fighter Level 4
You gain +2 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 8
You gain +4 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Mastery
Requires Fighter Level 12
You gain +6 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Supremacy
Requires Fighter Level 16
You gain +8 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Notes: All tactical feats stack for a total of +20. The lower level feats are not prerequisites for the higher level feats so a higher level fighter could save a feat if he/she wanted to skip Tactical Training and forego the +2 but still have access to Tatical Supremacy.

Heavy Armor Training
Requires Fighter Level 2
You gain +3 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 6
You gain +6 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Master
Requires Fighter Level 10
You gain +9 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Champion
Requires Fighter Level 14
You gain +12 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Notes: All Heavy Armor feats stack for a total of +30. The lower level feats are not prerequisites for the higher level feats so a higher level fighter could save a feat if he/she wanted to skip Heavy Armor Training and forego the +3 and still have access to Heavy Armor Champion.

I remember good times when in ee raid somone trips abbot just couse he rolls 20. No idea how many raid bosses it can effect but seriously you let only fighters get +20 dc for 4 feats making me just to imagine future raids where raid boss just sits on ground while surrounded fighters just gangbang him from all sides with trip.

Divine Grace (Paladin)
Divine Grace now provides a maximum bonus equal to 2 + (Paladin level x 3).

was needed long time ago couse it makes no sense for 17 sorc 3 pal runnig arround with 80+ saves. If i managed get without all buffs etc 65+ all saves on wf pure palemaster when others should think some way too how buff they saves without cheating with unlimited save boost just by picking 2 levels of pal.

Eldritch Blast and other enhancements (Warlock)
The spellpower scaling for Eldritch Blast and several enhancements has been reduced.

Spellpower scaling of Warlock Abilities

Ability
Old
New

Eldritch Blast
150%
130%

Eldritch Blast Cone
130%
130%

Eldritch Blast Chain
110%
95%

Eldritch Blast Aura
150%
130%

Stricken (Souleater)
150%
125%

Consume (Souleater)
150%
125%

Eldritch Burst (Enlightened Spirit)
120%
100%

Spirit Blast (Enlightened Spirit)
120%
100%

I will be following up this post with some details on our thoughts on balance and design.

if i understand correct you gonna make warlock same strong how they were in lamania and everyone was crying how weak they were so instead of fixing something like fvs arti wiz sorc druids casters giving them new spells power more dc??? you just make simple decision and gimp warlock again making ppl ragequit warlock life at 20.

Take consideration we have mortal fear cheated so much you can see ppl runing each life with differrent T3 thunderforged and killing mobs just becouse its normal to remove half hp while just attacking. (give monsters prr ways to protect so there would end builds who are viable only becouse mortal fear is so op or redesign it)

We still have treefolks crushing everyone for 1-3k base damage not mentioning criticals just becouse its normal. Treefols after these nerfs you mentioned even gets more interest of players as 1 of couple GOOD ee dps picks

Or even fix wolfs making at first to take damage score not only STR but fixing main issue with druid ranger builds which by far are best in game dps right now, and other builds just can see and admire. Duals best dps? Dont make me laugh if u can make doublestrike single dual line wolf which with each attack does up to 4 hits and even greater speed than duals could not mentioned fatal harass and killer, then you either didn't saw them or just ignore, but as it stands now i can have 1 of those wolfs in party and he will take 95% kills in quest.

P.S. I didnt saw so far. Most of times you dont listen to us anyway so just in advance when we get to tr to remainning 4-6 legit ee builds? I Mean when you plan to release these updates with next update in december? Next year? or after month or less couse u talk about testing it on Lamania already and by experience it usually means something gonna change in less than month.

tsteigner

10-15-2015, 05:26 AM

first of all, drop this nonsense of balancing, the things you want to implement are nerfs nothing more, nothing less and a lot of them are walking 1 year back in time if not more ....

Greetings.

Holy Sword (Paladin)
This is now a spell that affects the paladin and buffs whatever melee weapon is being wielded in the main hand.
It no longer persists on your weapon but instead buffs the melee weapon you are holding in your main hand. (Yes, this buffs your two handed weapons.)
It no longer affects missile weapons.
It no longer can be used to buff off hand weapons or shields.
If you change weapons the spell will drop off the unequipped weapon and instead be applied to the newly equipped weapon.
Sev~

Basicly you want to tell all Paladins either use THF or SWF or be gimped, since you're already nerfing twf feats, why is it needed to further nerf this spell ? i understand that it is nerfed for missile weapons, which imho is ok

Improved Critical
These feats now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.
Sev~

this is something i can understand and to a certain degree i can live with, since threat ranges with weapons of incr. threat range have gone out of hand lately, but you should keep in mind, that this means most chars will use scimitar's and rapiers after that change ...

also a Bard-swashbuckler is screwed with this change, why would you call this balanced ?
Bard-Swashbuckler with impr. critical : Pierce

* light mace OLD : 15-20 / x3 vs new : 17-20 / x3
* rapier OLD : 15-20 / 3 vs new : 15-20 / x3

Armor Changes
The amount of Physical Resist Rating that armor provides has been changed.
* Heavy armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 2) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Medium armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1.5) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Light Armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
Fixed a bug where players were getting Physical Resist Rating for armor with which they were not proficient.

(Note: The Physical Resist Rating and Magical Resist Rating offered by shields remain unchanged.)

As a result of dialing back armor, some fighter only feats that will boost their effectiveness with armor and add to tactical DCs will also be included.
Sev~

basicly your telling all Tanks that are not a fighter screw you, your gonna be gimped if you think about tanking without beeing at least lvl 18 fighter ..... not too mention that the change to MRR will bring back big time Pyjama wearing tanks, i thought that wasn't wanted when you changed the armor to give PRR + MRR ........

As for the feat itself, the only way that would work would have to be automated on a specific lvl or better in the "Tank"-enhancement tree
e.g.
2nd core : Heavy Armor Training
3rd core : Heavy Armor Combatant
4th core : Heavy Armor Master
5th core : Heavy Armor Champion

but in this case, the same changes have to be applyed to Paladin Tanks

adding to that, comes also the nerf of Tanks using shields .... Heavy shield+ gives you a x2 multiplier to your MRR for Reflex based Magic attacks, so after the change you're already missing 60 MRR when using a shield .....

All in all, these changes you want to apply to lower power in epic aren't doing what you want, they aren't affecting the epic play as much, as they are hindering new players in heroic content, which isn't what you should be thinking about ....

Morroiel

10-15-2015, 05:36 AM

What about the additional 3d6 Light damage/attack from ES tier 4? And/or the additional 3d6 Light damage/attack from ES lvl 18 core? And/or the additional 2d6 Chaotic damage from {enhancement I forgot the name of} vs targets marked by Consume? (iirc all of those scale w/Spellpower too.) Are any or all of those part of your absolute max?

Yes I included the 2d6 chaotic damage. I did not include ES T4 or ES 18 core because neither of those allow for maximum dps.

You are only given 80 points to spend on enhancements. 41 of which MUST be spent in TS for the capstone (crit multiplier scales TOO well to not be taken). This leaves 39 points to spend on the other 2 trees.
1) Take SE to Tier 5 and lvl 18 core - maximize consume/stricken/debuffs (this locks you out of ES - as all 39 points will be used)
2) Take 31 points and spend them in ES to get lvl 18 core, T4 spiritual retribution, and then spend the remaining 8 points in souleater for consume/stricken 2 cores and 2 T1 spellpowers.

The above are the two most optimal pathways if you are aiming to maximize single target dps. Neither is strictly better than the other always. Depending on how many stacks of consume you have on the enemy, the ES will actually do better dps (initially).

However, in my estimate of the absolute max sustainable single target dps - I took optimal conditions. Consume is at 3 stacks - in this case SE T5 TS Capstone is the most optimal build. That is why the 6d6 light damage is not factored in.

If you want mathematical proof (not entirely rigorous but absolutely correct based on the information we have at hand), check out: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/466512-Warlock-Single-Target-DPS-Optimization-Math?p=5704664&posted=1#post5704664.

BDog77

10-15-2015, 05:46 AM

OK, I have actually read every single post in this thread. Holy smokes! Yeah, really

So, my thoughts, and I won't touch upon that which I know nothing about (Barbs and archers and Warlocks).

I don't necessarily disagree with the nerf to Holy Sword, however, I am a bit curious as to why it singles out shield users. I just started a Vanguard on Live for the first time, and wow, he has a lot less DPS than he had when he was a TWF KoTC. It should be pointed out that he is more survivable, but yeah, slow killer. So, seems weird to me.

I also agree with the fella earlier who pointed out that, with everything taken as a whole, TWF just got hit with 5 (FIVE!) nerfs. That better have been one heck of a hitch between the 3rd and 4th animations (what was it, five minutes or so?).

Imp Crit and Keen. Yeah, ok, I see this, same as it was originally supposed to be without the unintended doubling. Fine, it's absolutely exactly what the people here on the forums asked for, so I can hardly see why anyone is complaining (except for, ya know, be careful what ya wish for....).

OK, Armor, sigh....really? With every nerf to PRR, the difference between heavy armor and light armor decreases yet again. Do we even remember that one of the salient problems with AC was that the best values could only be obtained by PJ wearing monks? At the point you have it now, a light armor wearing character with 3 PDK past lives, and 9 divine past lives will have more PRR than a heavy armored triple completionist (with no EPLs or IPLs). 24+36> 24 * 2. On top of that, they can have evasion, and the heavy armor user just lost all of his MRR. So, off we go down this road again. I wonder if it will be any different this time? Oh, look up ahead! It's a monk in PJs, top of the heap in damage control again! How nice for them. Yeah, been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

Please consider doing something different this time. Rather than crunch the armors into a rapidly decreasing space, why don't we triple the 50% mitigation mark to 300, and start heavy armor at 150 + BAB calc, medium at 100 + BAB calc and light armor at 50 + BAB calc (or if you are dead set on BAB being your factor, then use whatever multiplier you need to get full BAB characters to the percent mitigation you outlined in your first post). At least then heavy armor would still be a meaningful choice, even without MRR. Honestly, I think that would separate light and medium enough that medium could become a decent choice.

Yeah, MRR. Yeah, evasion. I think enough people have pointed this out, so I'm not gonna hammer it. Just will add my take that as the separation between the armors gets closer, this really becomes a no brainer.

Fighter feats. Yeah, really not sold on fighter having the only effective MRR in the game, but even if you open up the feats for general use, they would be the only class to really have a shot at them, and most fighters I know in game say they're pretty tight on feats as it is. As far as the tacticals go, this seems a bit cheesy, and certainly means the LD tactical boosts are a bit invalidated, donchathink?

Divine Grace, finally!

All in all, I think the armor changes bother me the most, so I'll just leave you with this. "Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it."

Thanks,
B

Morroiel

10-15-2015, 05:56 AM

This isn't league of legends ... have respect for your fellow players.

Thank you for this - I literally laughed out loud. Almost spilled my drink on my keyboard.

Cheers

Xaxx

10-15-2015, 06:08 AM

So just started looking at this thread and already finding a slight problem in all the thinking of this or atleast something that needs to be clarified.

So the swashbuckler is standard dps they wish to measure against now.... I wish to know how much internal testing they did because the power of swashbuckler is about to change a slight bit. Swashys power level was defined alot by making good crit ranges out of off weaspons.... with the ic change alot of those weapons (i speak not of named but of the weapon types period) just lost a good bit of punch... as much as a twf pally and alot more than a vangaurd is gonna loose on the holy sword change. Being able to turn a light pick into 17-20x4 base or hand axe into 15-20 x3 base is one of the things that makes swashys so workable.... congrats you just turned every swash into a rapier user.... so the idea is to balance...and your idea to balance is to return to the one or two weapon mold you semed that you were trying to break out from your self proffesed *standard* measurement..... that takes a special kind of lack of foresight that borders on ignorance of your own game.

While I understand the armor changes... umm.... so the reason to put mrr on armor was because it was reflex save or go home... so lets add mrr... then things are to easy so lets turn casting mobs up more.... then lets remove the biggest and usally one of only two sources of mrr for most classes... umm... ummm.... arent we almost right back to where we started at reflex or go home now with harder casting mobs and champs..... how many people have been involved with the logic of this decision.....

I mean guys if you wish to make balance changes that you think are good for the game.... then by all means do it..... but do not profess a something is the *baseline* youve now gonna use based on a year of seeing it... then hit a large portion of what made it good enough to be your baseline with the nerf sledge. Then the to hard.. change... make it harder... nerf back wards.... is just i mean such a twisting of priorities I have to wonder where your internal logic resides within development.

Infract me or ban me if you want for the above statements but that wont change the truth of them. When you make changes like this to the core of your game and make statements like standard and have a change like mrr over the last year of the game, you best have good enough reasons to answer things like this.

Balance is good but change for the sake of change usually leads no where but down. This game is closing on a decade of operation and mass balance changes better all be for the betterment of the game and not just because meh this looks good lets do it. Remember star wars galaxies and NGE. This isnt close to nge but the lesson should still be the same... and the two pointed out above are something that seems like change for changes sake in the logic presented.

rezo

10-15-2015, 06:14 AM

I hate to say this but, after rereading the thread it sounds to me that the changes are coming do to pass lifes. And also as for twf is out dps'ing thf and sword/ board. Just make the two handed weapons do more damage it not like this is a real 3.5 D&D game anymore. We left the realm along time ago. If you are going to keep MRR on shields it make no sense to me. Are shields magical and the armor is'nt??? If Pallys are to powerful just scale them back and not mess up the rest of the game for other classes.

FranOhmsford

10-15-2015, 06:55 AM

I wish you could collect better in-game data.

epics except the high level EEs are too easy because ED power is front-loaded and most people on the ETR train have their ED filled. Epic doesn't scale well in general.

When I ran through EE orchard recently one of the most vocal complainers about the game being too easy on Sarlona died 4 times within a few minutes and rage quit. I think part of the problem is alot of people take the path of least resistance on ETR and barely run the difficult content. Of course the game is too easy for them.

I think EE should scale from 3-6 instead of 1-4 people and that would probably add enough difficulty the high level EEs. Making enemies simply hit much harder is not the right answer.

FINALLY!

Epic Elites are NOT easy for a 1st, 2nd, 3rd or even 4th Life character that still has Destinies to fill!

The vast majority of power in Epics is in the Destinies!

Lvl 28 Characters are currently 4 levels below the Highest Level EEs and in Full Destiny with Multiple Past Lives and Epic TRs those Players are making those quests look like nothing!
BUT
Think of the guy who gets to Level 28 on his 1st or 2nd Life with only 3 destinies maxed and having to start a 4th {which may be one that has no synergy with his Build}, No E-TRs and at most one Past Life {which could have zero effect other than a couple extra build points depending on Build}.

The Problem is that the Devs have created an impasse where for some unknown reason they're building Lvl 28-30 Quests that can be completed by Lvl 20 Characters!
The reason for this is that fully maxed out with Destinies and E-TRs Lvl 20 Characters are far stronger than a 1st Life 28! And Lvl 21-25 Epics are a breeze for them!

What should have been done in the first place is make Destinies part of levelling the Class you're on {Pick a Destiny upon hitting 20 and that's it - That's the Destiny you use until you TR!}.
But there's no way to go back and fix that now so we're stuck with the players who've already finished the grind being lightyears ahead of those just starting it!

Create Reaper Difficulty for a difficulty above Elite for ALL Current Quests in the game - Make it so that you have no chance of completing AT LEVEL Solo and only a small Chance in a Group even if you're a Triple Heroic, Triple Epic Completionist!
Create Mythic Difficulty with a Base Level of 35 {or even 40} for those who wish to stay at End-Game rather than embarking on yet another TR - Should require a Group but not be as out there as Max Level Reapers.

Then Reduce the Difficulty of EE across the board and create a new difficulty between EE and E-Reaper for those Players who consider EE too easy but find Reaper impossible.

Reaper, Mythic etc. should NOT give any extra Favour or Renown.
Completing a Reaper Quest could easily give enough XP to advance a full level {say a Lvl 6 Reaper Quest gives enough XP to Level from 6-7 for a 3rd Lifer, A Lvl 19 Reaper Quest gives enough XP to Lvl from 19-20 for a 3rd Lifer, A Lvl 28 Reaper gives enough XP to level from 28-29!}.
Reaper could have it's own specific Loot that is only usable in Reaper Instances - Special Pots, Scrolls etc. No Min Lvl Named Artifacts!
Mythic doesn't need XP {You're already Level Capped before you can enter BUT SHOULD HAVE a Massive S/S/S Style Loot Grind that would take Months to get even a single item fully upgraded! {And yes - Mythic Quests should have Quest Timers with NO Bypasses to avoid farming 20 runs each day!}.

Lycurgus

10-15-2015, 07:08 AM

[QUOTE=FranOhmsford;5704689]FINALLY!

Epic Elites are NOT easy for a 1st, 2nd, 3rd or even 4th Life character that still has Destinies to fill!

Epic elite is easy for 10 bard + any combination. Epic elite is easy for anyone who doesn't intentionally gimp their toon.

Axeyu

10-15-2015, 07:25 AM

Regarding the new fighter feats:

Yes. We expect that to be true for characters who take 16+ levels of Fighter.

Fighter remains an excellent splash class. There are many, many characters with between 2-12 levels of Fighter, who cannot take the final, strongest form of these feats (available with 14 or 16 Fighter levels).

You seem to have accurately judged how we expect these feats to work for pure Fighters. We are always trying to build for all builds - especially the ones no one is thinking of, if we can!

You generally splash fighter because you need feats. So spending a feat for 3 PRR/MRR on a splash build is just not gonna happen. It will only add to the list of pointless feats and noob traps. Taking Heavy Armor Training on your heavy armored fighter will sound like a pretty good choice, but it will always be a mistake. I don't understand why it must be this way.
If you averaged the benefit the intentions of the feats would still be fulfilled, it would just become overall better.

slarden

10-15-2015, 07:46 AM

FINALLY!

Epic Elites are NOT easy for a 1st, 2nd, 3rd or even 4th Life character that still has Destinies to fill!

The vast majority of power in Epics is in the Destinies!

Lvl 28 Characters are currently 4 levels below the Highest Level EEs and in Full Destiny with Multiple Past Lives and Epic TRs those Players are making those quests look like nothing!
BUT
Think of the guy who gets to Level 28 on his 1st or 2nd Life with only 3 destinies maxed and having to start a 4th {which may be one that has no synergy with his Build}, No E-TRs and at most one Past Life {which could have zero effect other than a couple extra build points depending on Build}.

The Problem is that the Devs have created an impasse where for some unknown reason they're building Lvl 28-30 Quests that can be completed by Lvl 20 Characters!
The reason for this is that fully maxed out with Destinies and E-TRs Lvl 20 Characters are far stronger than a 1st Life 28! And Lvl 21-25 Epics are a breeze for them!

What should have been done in the first place is make Destinies part of levelling the Class you're on {Pick a Destiny upon hitting 20 and that's it - That's the Destiny you use until you TR!}.
But there's no way to go back and fix that now so we're stuck with the players who've already finished the grind being lightyears ahead of those just starting it!

Create Reaper Difficulty for a difficulty above Elite for ALL Current Quests in the game - Make it so that you have no chance of completing AT LEVEL Solo and only a small Chance in a Group even if you're a Triple Heroic, Triple Epic Completionist!
Create Mythic Difficulty with a Base Level of 35 {or even 40} for those who wish to stay at End-Game rather than embarking on yet another TR - Should require a Group but not be as out there as Max Level Reapers.

Then Reduce the Difficulty of EE across the board and create a new difficulty between EE and E-Reaper for those Players who consider EE too easy but find Reaper impossible.

Reaper, Mythic etc. should NOT give any extra Favour or Renown.
Completing a Reaper Quest could easily give enough XP to advance a full level {say a Lvl 6 Reaper Quest gives enough XP to Level from 6-7 for a 3rd Lifer, A Lvl 19 Reaper Quest gives enough XP to Lvl from 19-20 for a 3rd Lifer, A Lvl 28 Reaper gives enough XP to level from 28-29!}.
Reaper could have it's own specific Loot that is only usable in Reaper Instances - Special Pots, Scrolls etc. No Min Lvl Named Artifacts!
Mythic doesn't need XP {You're already Level Capped before you can enter BUT SHOULD HAVE a Massive S/S/S Style Loot Grind that would take Months to get even a single item fully upgraded! {And yes - Mythic Quests should have Quest Timers with NO Bypasses to avoid farming 20 runs each day!}.

Don't get me wrong epic elite has definitely gotten easier in recent years. My point is that current eeOrchard and eeTOE part 1 are not easy at all in their current state for level 28s.

I am very confused by Turbine's intentions. They just made eeOrchard and eeTOEE part 1 much more difficult - to the point I can't get vet players to join me for runs at all and I am need 800 more epic rusted grill mushrooms from part 1. At the same time they are looking to add a reaper difficulty level and at the same time nerfing all the builds they just buffed - and some weaker builds are getting nerfed in the process.

My point is that I don't get their intentions. My second point is that there is a HUGE difference between ee Eveningstar which the majority of players can solo on EE vs. eeTOEE part in it's current state where very few can solo on EE. I realize not everyone can solo ee Eveningstar, but I think the majority of players can solo it - andf with a small amount of tweaking and practice all can solo the eveningstar quests.

ee Eveningstar chain 1 is easier for a level 20 character than ee Necro is for a level 28 in it's current state. So if I knew where they are going with difficulty it would help me comment on the balance adjustments. I don't know if everone ran ee Orchard or ee TOEE part 1 since the difficulty change, but if not you should so you kno what people are talking about.

I do agree, even when running through the new content on EE which I can solo on every single character I have - the average person in a PUG does struggle - die several times - and if i sit back and watch the end fight of Subversion for example they will all surely die.

Alot of that is just knowledge of how this game works, etc. But all players can complete these without past lifes. I am running the new chain ee solo on my 15 paladin / 5 ranger and another deep alt 20 warlock - neither of which has any relevant past lifes or decent gear. I am only running solo due to a long period out of town which is almost over.

A good example is when I talked about my tempest having a 150 prr and some were saying that wasn't possible while others were laughing "only 150 lol". Having the information is half the battle and being willing to use is is the other half. My guild has several roleplayers, led by real life friend. These folks don't care if something is powerful they only care if it's thematic. Nothing is wrong with what they are doing - and they don't expect the game to change for them. But if they need some gear from a difficult quest, they look me up and do ok on EE in a group they ask me to help. They do still want ee for favor, xp, gear, etc.

They don't run raids and they mainly just stick to themselves and they probably won't even notice these balance changes (or care about them). I think you are right that the people on the forums complaining about the game being too easy are a definite minority, but there should be a difficulty setting for this group also.

Soemthing tells me the devs are going to backpedal on reaper mode and this is their new solution. Why would they do something like this if they were going to add reaper mode soon?