The Balance Change post

[WNxDaCraw]

So. You still seem to ignore the fact that monkchers run in the Fury of the Wild and the point of these builds is using the abilities in the right time. Did you include to your math (if you have run any) the probability of the regeneration of Adrenaline as well as the decrease of the DPS because of the lower numbers of the arrows fired in the moment of using such abilities?

so instead of (1 arrow +auto crit) +400% damage)...x4

or

((1 arrow +auto crit) +400% damage) x2....maybe 3 and a minor ranged power buff.

is that the math?

[Chaoscheerio]

Hi. Reposting because people talking about how good MRR changes are keep forgetting it:

Part of why MRR/PRR is so powerful is because of the splash of fighter/paladin.
13 AP and 3 levels for a melee, ranged, or shiradi caster, is NO BIG DEAL. How do I know it's no big deal? Because I've rolled it numerous times, and have played with and watched countless others do the same.
What you gain for a small splash is too great. You don't see that kind of defensive or even offensive power in other small splashes(aside from perhaps haste boost being kensei T1). For others, you'll need at least 5 levels and using up your tier 5 enhancements(looking at you, Enlightened Spirit)

I have no problem with nerfing MRR but I don't want to see it flat out removed.

Instead I propose changes to Stalwart/Sacred Defender trees.

Make the stance itself a T3 and enhances that boost it T3 and higher, ultimately leading to the +20% HP being a T5.
- Still gives you 25 MRR for a 3 splash, but makes that the ONLY thing you gain from it. 20% hp or +6 Strength SHOULD require giving up your T5s.

[Requiro]

And then we're back to pre armor up no heavy armor days again with more people playing arcane and ranged units. It's not brain surgery.

These days are never return. In old days, toons don't have the best DSP and the best Self healing all together, and can't solo 30 CR EE quest with 20 level toon.

No - IMO Devs balance direction is ok.

[WNxDaCraw]

Your toon will be viable - just not OP (in terms of ranged combat) ;)

Everyone knows that Adrenaline should not work with all additional projectiles and overall ranged combat. If you are so upset about a little (yes a little) nerf when using bugs, maybe it's time to find others? Idk.
For me it’s great change. But you know – I’m different - I just like playing game, without searching bugs and exploit them ;)

Why wouldn't it work with all 4 arrows...you fire them all at once because your a bad ass archer.

and you would probably call any character a viable toon...i do not however play this game for the chance to barely slog through each mission. If i can't kick the door in and crush my enemies...drive them before me...and hear the lamentations of their women. This is what is good in life.

If you like lame toons thats ok. I wont try to shove cool down your throat and you don't preach at me.

[Jeromio]

Basic armor offers too much mitigation for its cost. While we are happy that armored characters are relevant again, we want to cut back on it a bit.



I still don't understand why they want to remove all MRR on armors. Could someone insightful please explain why armors' MRR is going down to zero for all classes (except fighters taking the new feats).

For me, "cut back on it a bit" doesn't sound the same as removing all MRR from armors for all other classes.



I suppose my pure bladeforged KotC pally will have to TR to pally 18/rogue 2 with mithral body plating. It will in my case mean about 8% more physical damage taken than with adamantine plating and a bit less DPS, but thanks to evasion, magic damage will be of little concern... and I can be a medium skilled trapper.

My FVS evoker will probably take 2 levels of monk, both for evasion and better DCs.

Welcome to the new age of the evasion and pyjama builds! :)

[JOTMON]

Blood Strength (Barbarian Ravager)
The portion of this enhancement that heals the user when they kill an opponent now has a 1 second internal cooldown.


Bad for cleaving barbarians.
The proc heals is the only thing that keeps the barbarian alive when jumping into a mass of mobs and full on rage dps cleaves.
the 1 second cooldown will mean the barbarian will only possibly proc 1 cure per cleave cycle.
Barbarians will now have to jump in and out of groups of mobs chugging silverflame pots.
a cautious barbarian is an ineffective barbarian.

~Now I am sure someone will say great a cleric can heal them.. but that wont work either.. clerics have been proxy nerfed even more with the armor changes, so any of the few remaining clerics in the game will be even more unlikely to venture off the ships now.
.. at least until clerics get their revamp that gives them better survivability, lower cost cures, sla cures( lower aura to T3 and stem add-ons to improve aura), uncapped healing spell power...

[Requiro]

(...) If i can't kick the door in and crush my enemies...drive them before me...and hear the lamentations of their women. This is what is good in life. (...)

Sound like Barbarian to me ;)
You miss your vocation.


(...) And thanks for calling me an exploiter (...)

This is not what I say.
I just describe my playstyle.
Using bugs that Devs (unfortunately) accepted (thus become feature), is not exploitation.

[JOTMON]

We don't expect you to take eight new feats. They are options.

Frankly, I personally only expect someone going for a sort of theme build to take all four Tactics feats. I'd be strongly tempted to take the +6 and +8 feats, but after that I'm probably landing 95% of time on not just low-save monsters (usually Fortitude, for Stunning Blow), but probably managing to get pretty high chances even against monsters with strong Fort saves. That's not taking into account using other feats vs. other saves, etc.

Maybe there's some crazy non-Strength Fighter Build that will want all four Tactics feats to keep DCs up, but that's just a new build that probably couldn't get viable tactics before. That would be great.



Tactics are pointless. tripping 1 trash mob at a time with a long cooldown when it will be dead in a couple hits anyway... yeah pointless..
Tactics need to have some benefit on Red names/bosses, or a mass effect and faster cooldowns.. (something to bolster into the higher tiers perhaps..).

[Hephaistor]

Greetings.
We've seen a lot of community feedback, both public and private, about our ongoing plans for balance. These are some changes we are considering to increase game balance.
As with any post that outlines power reductions (aka nerfs) I am sure there will be a lot of players looking for explanations and our thoughts and results on balance that led to these changes. I will be following up this post with more details that talk about why some of these changes are being implemented.

I was looking forward to this because I have 10 heroes all with 3-6 pastlives, are using common builds here from the forum section and their equipment is more or less of the same power level. (All wear a good combination of level 26+ epic items with one or two raid items per toon.) Yet the difference in power between them has become huge over the last updates. I started to avoid some of them because they were dragging too much behind and to avoid others because it became boring to play them. (No fancy multiclass min-max builds, things like a pure blade forged paladin) I group a lot and even on EE group play got boring when 2-3 powerful builds met.
But I didn’t expect the balance pass to be all nerfs but was looking forward to some improvement to utterly useless mechanics like epic DPS casting with actual spells. Not magic missle + shiradi or ED SLAs all the way but playing with the iconic high end spells of arcane and divine classes. I can’t remember when I casted a polar ray or a fire storm for the last time in an EE quest, seems to be yerars to me.



Holy Sword (Paladin)
This is now a spell that affects the paladin and buffs whatever melee weapon is being wielded in the main hand.
It no longer persists on your weapon but instead buffs the melee weapon you are holding in your main hand. (Yes, this buffs your two handed weapons.)
It no longer affects missile weapons.
It no longer can be used to buff off hand weapons or shields.
If you change weapons the spell will drop off the unequipped weapon and instead be applied to the newly equipped weapon.

The “not on ranged weapons” part should have been there from the start, why should I melee when I can deliver the same DPS from a safe distance? Yes, “no bows” is different from PnP (but the whole spell is different anyway) BUT there is no kiting in PnP. “My paladin shoots the mob with his holy bow, runs away to a safe distance and attacks again. Rince repeat until all mobs are dead, if needed the heavy armored warrior runs in circles for some time.” Didn’t know there was a deity with a coward domain and my GM would have made me do STR and CON checks over and over again with stacking penalties. The TWF part seems a bit harsh to me as TWF paladins have always been a common build. Less tanky than S+B, less mobs hit than THF but better single target DPS – that has seemed to be quite balanced to me. Better way to prevent overpowered TWF paladins would have been imho:
- (The KOTC cleave enhancements do not work while TWF) not sure if even needed
- Multi target attacks from other classes like Dance of Death can’t be done while in defensive stance. You are either a bastion or a dead bringing spinning dervish, but not a spinning bastion.



Blood Strength (Barbarian Ravager)
The portion of this enhancement that heals the user when they kill an opponent now has a 1 second internal cooldown.

So my Barbarian will most likely need another source of healing in EE. Guess that is OK, barbarians are probably not meant to be a good solo class. But I loved that I didn’t need babysitting while raged. The fun of playing a barbarian wouldn’t be so dependent on the barbarian’s own healing abilities if healers in (EE) groups would be a bit more common.



Critical Rage (Barbarian Ravager)
The bonus to critical threat range is now a competence bonus.


Maybe it’s needed, but the whole “first inflating crit. ranges like hell and then taming them down again” thing bugs me a bit.



Two weapon fighting animations have been fixed so there is no longer a weird jump on the fourth animation. This has made the fourth attack slightly quicker.
Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Improved Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Greater Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.


TWF builds get more out of the effects on attack and a lot of those attacks now scale with melee power. Conclusion: Nerf melee power on TWF feats. TWF will be still a good choice for classes with a lot of those effects like paladins, barbarians and rogues. TWF builds without good on attack effects just get plain worse like TWF pure fighter, monks, clerics and favorite souls. And those weren’t powerful builds to begin with. Those scaling effects should be on a timer, but why should my monk lose melee power just because a barbs healing, a paladins extra light damage or a rogues backstab get a bit too much power with TWF?



Repeating Crossbows and Doubleshot
Fixed a bug where Doubleshot was not being reduced for repeating crossbows. (Doubleshot chance is divided by 3 for repeating crossbows.)


Won’t affect my mechanic as I use great crossbows, but my ranged Artificer will now be even more useless in endgame quests.



Manyshot
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 20 seconds you add your (base attack bonus * 4) to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. This ability puts Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 2 minutes.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)
Doubleshot values over 100% now have a chance of producing a third attack. The chance is equal to the amount the value exceeds 100. A doubleshot value of 130, for example, would always produce one extra shot and have a 30% chance to produce a third shot.
(Doublestrike will still cap at 100 for technical reasons.)

Didn’t play may AA for a long time now. Manyshot + Fury was a nice trick, but I was disappointed all the time that my AA didn’t pull of his weight in EE groups when running in Shiradi. I hope pure bow ranger will be playable again after the passes, but I won’t be able to say more about this until I tried in on the Lamania.



Ten Thousand Stars
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 30 seconds you add your Wisdom ability score to your Ranged Power and you add your monk level * 5 to your Doubleshot. This ability puts Manyshot on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 1 minute.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)


Good for my pure monk as far as I understand it, bad for throwing monk multiclass characters. Like Manyshot I have to try this, can’t say what it will be exactly like from the numbers.



Mechanical Reloader (Rogue Mechanic)
The alacrity for non-repeating crossbows is now 30%. (Was 40%)


I don’t think my mechanic was over performing and the crit. range changes will lower my DPS a bit anyway. Shouldn’t it be + 50% for non-repeating/non great crossbows? Or are you going to remove regular crossbows from the game as they are one of the most useless weapons anyway.



Pulverizer (Legendary Dreadnought)
The bonus to critical threat range for bludgeoning weapons is now an Insight bonus.


I use blunt weapons on heavy fort. enemies most of the time and always though: Shouldn’t it be a bonus to armor piercing instead? But a stacking crit. range bonus is quite nice of course.



Improved Critical
These feats now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.
Keen
This loot effect now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.


Now this feats and enchantments work like intended. I never understood what the fuss was all about as the old multiplying mechanic was kind of forcing people all into the same combination of weapons+boni.



Armor Changes
The amount of Physical Resist Rating that armor provides has been changed.
* Heavy armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 2) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Medium armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1.5) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Light Armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
Fixed a bug where players were getting Physical Resist Rating for armor with which they were not proficient.
(Note: The Physical Resist Rating and Magical Resist Rating offered by shields remain unchanged.)
As a result of dialing back armor, some fighter only feats that will boost their effectiveness with armor and add to tactical DCs will also be included.


Getting half of the PPR bonus from armors as MRR would be better imho, at least if you are going to keep all the magical damage spikes in the game. The ratio of "PRR from armor" to "PRR from other sources" seems a bit off to me now. Do you want a first live heavy armor wearing cleric to have less PRR than a multi TR mage in robes that got some raid loot? At least make enhancement like “Wall of Steel” (Warpriest) and the defense stances (Defender) scale with the armor type worn. Or a new players will hear: Out of the way paladin and let the rogue tank, he got the past lives and gear for that.



Tactical Training
Requires Fighter Level 4
You gain +2 to the DC of all tactical feats.
Tactical Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 8
You gain +4 to the DC of all tactical feats.
Tactical Mastery
Requires Fighter Level 12
You gain +6 to the DC of all tactical feats.
Tactical Supremacy
Requires Fighter Level 16
You gain +8 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Notes: All tactical feats stack for a total of +20. The lower level feats are not prerequisites for the higher level feats so a higher level fighter could save a feat if he/she wanted to skip Tactical Training and forego the +2 but still have access to Tatical Supremacy.

Heavy Armor Training
Requires Fighter Level 2
You gain +3 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.
Heavy Armor Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 6
You gain +6 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.
Heavy Armor Master
Requires Fighter Level 10
You gain +9 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.
Heavy Armor Champion
Requires Fighter Level 14
You gain +12 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.
Notes: All Heavy Armor feats stack for a total of +30. The lower level feats are not prerequisites for the higher level feats so a higher level fighter could save a feat if he/she wanted to skip Heavy Armor Training and forego the +3 and still have access to Heavy Armor Champion.


Seems a bit boring/bland to me but a couple of feats to take on a fighter are welcome. A third line with a damage increase would be nice.



Divine Grace (Paladin)
Divine Grace now provides a maximum bonus equal to 2 + (Paladin level x 3).

Makes sense because of the very high CHA scores in DDO.

I have no idea about warlocks apart from “tear through heroic content and get rarer in epic levels”. Guess some changes were needed.

[JOTMON]

Yes, I have daggers that need to become kukris and my friend needs to turn a bow into a cross bow.

This would be great!

A stone of change option that will morph any weapon into any other type of weapon for crafted (TF/GS), named and non-named items would be great..
Then I can change my soon to be nerfed Qstaff build into a kukiri or falchion build.

.. which brings to mind....

..Where are the customizable Sentient weapons?...

[CThruTheEgo]

I just want to jump in and say I agree with a couple of comments made by a few others.

The crit range bonus for daggers from knife specialization needs to be changed to +2 to give daggers the same crit profile as kukris. The whole point of that enhancement is to give them the same crit profile and the proposed changes to imp crit will nullify that effort, but not if the enhancement is changed to add +2.

Also, most of the proposed changes are about things that were added in only the last couple of years, which means people have made critical decisions about, and put a lot of effort into, planning their builds, including gear, based upon those mechanics. To change them so quickly is inconsiderate of the players imho. I do, however, understand that many of these changes need to be made, and that builds and gear become outdated, but to make them obsolete so quickly is simply poor customer care. Two simple things can be provided for players as compensation for their efforts which will make this an easier transition for them and result in happier customers.

1) The changes to imp crit make a huge difference in which weapon people will want for their specific build. Crafting a tier 3 Thunder-Forged weapon is no small matter. So if these changes are going to go live, I think there should be a deconstruction option for Thunder-Forged. And not a poorly implemented system like greensteel deconstruction which only returns partial ingredients. A proper deconstruction system needs to return ALL ingredients that were used in the making of an item. The game knows what ingredients are required for each effect, so it should be possible for it to know which ingredients to return.

2) +20 hearts of wood to all characters. I think the reasons for this have already been stated enough and are quite obvious anyway. I just want to say I think these should be provided as well.

Given that the things being changed were implemented so recently, to not provide these compensations is really a slap in the face to the players imho, and very poor customer service. I know +20 hearts of wood are an easy fix and I expect that will be done, but the Thunder-Forged deconstruction really needs to be implemented as well even though it requires a lot more dev work to do so. That is just as crucial imo, because gear is as much a part of a build as class, feats, and enhancements, and Thunder-Forged weapons are arguably the most time consuming piece of gear to obtain.

[FreeMemory]

Tactical Training
Requires Fighter Level 4
You gain +2 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 8
You gain +4 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Mastery
Requires Fighter Level 12
You gain +6 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Supremacy
Requires Fighter Level 16
You gain +8 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Notes: All tactical feats stack for a total of +20. The lower level feats are not prerequisites for the higher level feats so a higher level fighter could save a feat if he/she wanted to skip Tactical Training and forego the +2 but still have access to Tatical Supremacy.

Heavy Armor Training
Requires Fighter Level 2
You gain +3 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 6
You gain +6 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Master
Requires Fighter Level 10
You gain +9 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Champion
Requires Fighter Level 14
You gain +12 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Notes: All Heavy Armor feats stack for a total of +30. The lower level feats are not prerequisites for the higher level feats so a higher level fighter could save a feat if he/she wanted to skip Heavy Armor Training and forego the +3 and still have access to Heavy Armor Champion.



These are unnecessarily complicated in this format. They just means a lot of feat swapping if used at all during low levels. Also the feats become increasing useless if you want to add more than Supremacy/Champion levels. There is negligible advantage to expending 8 feats on these.

Here, try this version with just 2 feats:

Tactical Training
Requires Fighter Level 4
You gain +1 to the DC of all tactical feats for each fighter level you possess (maximum +20).

Heavy Armor Training
Requires Fighter Level 2
You gain +3 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor for every 2 fighter levels you possess (maximum +30).

The result is same effect - max 20 to tactical DCs and max 30 to PRR & MRR with heavy armor. The character still has to have more fighter levels to increase the bonus increasing attractiveness of more fighter levels, though martial destinies could help mixed classes max out.

If you truly want to require using up more feats (8 is outrageous), then create a 50% value lower version feat, then use the ones I listed above as the 2nd "improved" version feats. That would be 2 feats for each for a total of 4. This version would also mean the improved feats are not worth less than the lesser feats. Here it is with 2 feats each:

Tactical Training
Requires Fighter Level 2
You gain +1 to the DC of all tactical feats for each 2 fighter levels you possess (maximum +10)

Tactical Supremacy
Requires Fighter Level 10 & Tactical Training
Your Tactical Training now provides +1 to the DC of all tactical feats for each fighter level you possess (maximum +20)

Heavy Armor Training
Requires Fighter Level 4
You gain +3 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor for every 4 fighter levels you possess (maximum +15).

Heavy Armor Champion
Requires Fighter Level 12 & Heavy Armor Training
Your Heavy Armor Training now provides +3 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor for every 2 fighter levels you possess (maximum +30).

[Doctorivil]

Tactical Training
Requires Fighter Level 4
You gain +2 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 8
You gain +4 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Mastery
Requires Fighter Level 12
You gain +6 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Supremacy
Requires Fighter Level 16
You gain +8 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Notes: All tactical feats stack for a total of +20. The lower level feats are not prerequisites for the higher level feats so a higher level fighter could save a feat if he/she wanted to skip Tactical Training and forego the +2 but still have access to Tatical Supremacy.

Sev~

Since there's the feats are not in a chain, and in some cases you would only take the last 1 or 2 to the extra DC, why don't you make it just 1 feat that scales with fighter levels?

"Tactical Supremacy

Requiredes Fighter lv 1
You gain a bonus to DC of all tactical feats equal to your fighter level."

The fighter lvl requirements would still be present and would scale well, w/o being a huge feat consumer.

[mole7777]

I do not like the armour changes they seem flawed to me. I have been playing a paladin vanguard on and off between getting past lives and is what I intended to return to. However I wont be doing that if the armour changes go live and if I cant find some other class I like playing then maybe that will be it.

My issue with the change is simple. My armour will no longer effect my magic defence, so light or heavy it wont matter. So looking at the physical defence I would just about be better off wearing heavy compared to light (its not a big difference but it should be). However I can get a much higher dodge in light armour. So if I wanted to increase my physical defence I think I would in fact be better off wearing light armour if I got enough PRR and dodge from past lives and maybe throw in a feat/twist. In practice I would not stop wearing heavy because there are no decent large shields (that I know of).

So if the armour changes leave me feeling I should go back to the bad old days then they are bad from my point of view.

[Doctorivil]

These is are unnecessarily complicated in this format. They just means a lot of feat swapping if used at all during low levels. Also the feats become increasing useless if you want to add more than Supremacy/Champion levels. There is negligible advantage to expending 8 feats on these.

Here, try this version with just 2 feats:


Nicely done, got pretty much the same idea, but yours is better tunned

[Requiro]

Using bugs to your advantage is exploiting.

That's why I add sentence in my original post:
"Using bugs that Devs (unfortunately) accepted (thus become feature), is not exploitation."

[JOTMON]

I ran warlock numbers before and after and I feel the reduction is too light. Warlocks are outperforming many classes and builds on their first life with nothing really special going on. Yeah, it is a reduction, but not enough of one.

Don't forget Warlock is the current flavour pay-to-win class, not pay-to-be mediocre.

[Kriogen]

FINALLY!

Epic Elites are NOT easy for a 1st, 2nd, 3rd or even 4th Life character that still has Destinies to fill!

The vast majority of power in Epics is in the Destinies!
...
.
... and the rest is in gear.

I have level 20(ish) chars with zero ED and not a single item with ML higher then 19. Not even Eveningstar comms gear. Heroic gear only. Epic Hard is not easy. Even on epic normal I have to be carefull.

If I compare how much damage I do and watch some youtube videos, the difference is up to 10 times. Yes, you can litteraly add a 0 at the end.

I did my homework when building that char. Build is good. It's ED, gear, past lifes.

Difference betwen 1st life newbie and old, super twinked vet is up to x10.

No idea why devs want to nerf "heroic" stuff as "epic" is so powerfull you could just as well roll a random heroic build and still win EE. If you have "epic" toys (destiny, gear, past lifes) that is.

[Mirta]

Bad for cleaving barbarians.
The proc heals is the only thing that keeps the barbarian alive when jumping into a mass of mobs and full on rage dps cleaves.
the 1 second cooldown will mean the barbarian will only possibly proc 1 cure per cleave cycle.
Barbarians will now have to jump in and out of groups of mobs chugging silverflame pots.
a cautious barbarian is an ineffective barbarian.

~Now I am sure someone will say great a cleric can heal them.. but that wont work either.. clerics have been proxy nerfed even more with the armor changes, so any of the few remaining clerics in the game will be even more unlikely to venture off the ships now.
.. at least until clerics get their revamp that gives them better survivability, lower cost cures, sla cures( lower aura to T3 and stem add-ons to improve aura), uncapped healing spell power...

I'm wondering why they insist on nerfing the proc healing when we will just replace it with silver flame pots. It seems like an intentional nuisance more than balance. It would be very nice to see them focus on the enhancement passes first before they go blindly running around with their nerf bat. They talk about diversifying classes by nerfing the most popular ones, but they should really be enticing people to switch by giving a boost to lesser played classes. Where are the healer passes? What about sorcs and wizzies?

Devs, please finish the passes on other classes before you go trying to balance things. Those passes may be enough to prevent the need for this "balancing".

[Chaoscheerio]

Hi. I know I've done more than enough of my fair share of whining already in this thread but something was just brought to my attention.

I need to do an artificer life. It is the last class I need before I am a double completionist.
I love the class between its themes and its unique flavour. I would gladly play a pure artificer again if there was a reason to beyond my own enjoyment of flavour.

As of right now it only really shines from level 1-10. Beyond that it's meh at best.
The MRR changes don't hurt the builds that are overpowered the most. They are already using stalwart stances and displacement. With the removal of armour my artificer will have 0 defensive options beyond a bit of PRR and self healing(if warforged! Reconstruct is not enough with a 50% penalty on fleshies!)
They don't get displacement or blur or any option beyond that unless they splash. These changes take low defensive options to near nothing. Protection from elements barely does a thing in heroics let alone epics! Don't even talk about force or disintegrate. My current life gets hit for 400-700 disintegrates in EE WITH 78 MRR.

Why will anyone bother playing a pure arti after this update? I repeat, the builds you're hurting the most with these changes are not the overpowered ones!

[patang01]

Yes. Though their ranged DPS actually plateaus by about L15 in my experience (changes to the +W values for higher value lootgen have helped somewhat with this). Since thats the point their heightened DCs start to top out as well, I'd say they could use something to keep their ranged side 'advancing' in the last few levels. Epics is a whole other thing I am not remotely qualified to talk about.

I get your argument, but personally I'd hope that Turbine concentrate on the Epic destiny part of it before they worry about enhancement. I mean yes, it's nice with more enhancement but that's not the very most limiting part right now.

[RD2play]

So. You still seem to ignore the fact that monkchers run in the Fury of the Wild and the point of these builds is using the abilities in the right time. Did you include to your math (if you have run any) the probability of the regeneration of Adrenaline as well as the decrease of the DPS because of the lower numbers of the arrows fired in the moment of using such abilities?

and keeping your Ki up for vade and 10k, it might be strong but only for an all stars align scenario, if you accidentally hit a trash mob with your combo because of the hard target bug you better start running as the boss is now in you and he will probably bypass your defences, and we all know soul-stones do 0 dps! is monkcher a hard hitter? yes ! but it takes a lot to get it there in terms of stat distribution gear and Player Skill !! it not like a 2wf pally with 200+prr&mrr who just stand there cleaving and auto-attacking ! the simple fact is you will get hit in Epics even with current max dodge and 1 or 2 hits mean you are dead ! so this unarmoured build requires a certain playstyle and the ability to do massive DMG to named.

Dev's just admit it you break ranged burst-builds instead of circling like a politician!

[patang01]

Another perspective would be to flip each of these: Does adding PRR/MRR to all armor automatically make DDO better or "increase options"? If barbarians didn't take damage and never needed healing would it be a better game? Does increasing DPS automatically enhance the game experience?

Every one of these questions is about finding the right spot across a gray scale. Getting the exact right answer is always going to be quite difficult. Getting a group of people (developers, players, both) to agree on the exact right answer verges on impossible, so we can only do the best we can.

I'm not sure if you were around between MOTU and armor up. But this is what it was back then. A scene with ranged, arcane and very few melee. And certainly even fewer heavy armor users. We saw a lot of pajama melee. This is part of observed history already. So adding MRR did increase options.

It seems like Turbine is hellbent on doing several drastic changes to address many different issues and won't have any way of telling which causes what and what helped 'fix' it. Working in the tech industry myself as far as I can tell our best practices precludes drastic across the board changes since we would never have an idea what ended up doing what in that case.

But we know this; prior to armor up there were basically no heavy armor melee. For a good reason. MRR was introduced to act in a similar way to how evasion handled spike damage, MRR would instead be more like a smooth wave.

I get the holy sword change and the change to divine grace. A large reason why we have so much Pally splashes going on is because of those 2 things. But what are you hoping to accomplish by destroying heavy armor? For melee to start taking damage?

And you think people will continue using heavy armor melee as a result? In all the years of DDO, when did people ever just suffer it out like that? What player will continue to plow through a poor situation without going for path of least resistance?

Much of the armor up was to solve the lack of diversity among melee but also do something about the glut of Monkcher builds. Welcome back. To assume that won't be the case ignores actual events.

[RD2play]

Your toon will be viable - just not OP (in terms of ranged combat)

Wait for Fighter and Monk pass - maybe they get some ranged love :rolleyes:



Everyone knows that Adrenaline should not work with all additional projectiles and overall ranged combat. If you are so upset about a little (yes a little) nerf when using bugs (not bows), maybe it's time to find others? Idk.
For me it’s great change. But you know – I’m different - I just like playing game, without searching bugs and exploit them ;)

right cus you know my build....

Its already not OP but merely viable, with the change to 10k there is no reason to take monk (or more than 2monk for stance) in this build and thus this build will no longer be viable for ranged, either more monk or more ranger but this set up will give nothing anymore, and I am ok with that even! just not the statement from varg that it will still be viable it will not! it will be gimp, since no crit low ds! I might reroll it back to my Centered-DA-tempest but that one wont be ranged! and with the MS changes it wont even have a viable ranged option ( although I feel MS is being done right).

And P.S. don't tell me off for being an exploiter ! I am not I make my own builds and don't copy paste from the forums so keep it to you self. I like playing the game and have no million pl zerg attitude!

[patang01]

Hi. I know I've done more than enough of my fair share of whining already in this thread but something was just brought to my attention.

I need to do an artificer life. It is the last class I need before I am a double completionist.
I love the class between its themes and its unique flavour. I would gladly play a pure artificer again if there was a reason to beyond my own enjoyment of flavour.

As of right now it only really shines from level 1-10. Beyond that it's meh at best.
The MRR changes don't hurt the builds that are overpowered the most. They are already using stalwart stances and displacement. With the removal of armour my artificer will have 0 defensive options beyond a bit of PRR and self healing(if warforged! Reconstruct is not enough with a 50% penalty on fleshies!)
They don't get displacement or blur or any option beyond that unless they splash. These changes take low defensive options to near nothing. Protection from elements barely does a thing in heroics let alone epics! Don't even talk about force or disintegrate. My current life gets hit for 400-700 disintegrates in EE WITH 78 MRR.

Why will anyone bother playing a pure arti after this update? I repeat, the builds you're hurting the most with these changes are not the overpowered ones!

That reminds me of the argument about the debuff of PRR in ToEE, how that was meant to counter high PRR builds when it really only hurt low PRR the most.

[JOTMON]

Under the proposal, Improved Critical would offer a +1 to the critical threat range of a quarterstaff. So, a regular quarterstaff that is 20/x2 would become 19-20/x2, and a named quarterstaff with a natural crit range of 19-20 would become 18-20.

Perhaps any weapons that are in the +1 improved crit range category that have a x2 modifier should be changed to a x3 modifier to offset the loss and not make these weapons subpar.
This way we are not dependant on niche class enhancements/destinies being able to make these weapons better than garbage.

[unbongwah]

The crit range bonus for daggers from knife specialization needs to be changed to +2 to give daggers the same crit profile as kukris. The whole point of that enhancement is to give them the same crit profile and the proposed changes to imp crit will nullify that effort, but not if the enhancement is changed to add +2.
A simple solution for Swashbucklers, Acrobats, and Assassins: add a conditional which doubles your crit range bonus if you have the relevant Imp Crit feat. E.g.:

Knife Specialization: You gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier with daggers and kukris. Daggers also gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Threat Range; if you have the Improved Critical:Piercing Weapons feat, this bonus becomes +2.
Staff Specialization: You gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier and Threat Range with Quarterstaves. If you have the Improved Critical:Bludgeoning Weapons feat, you gain an additional +1 bonus to threat range.


For Assassins, daggers & kukris maintain parity with each other. For Swashbucklers, the base weapon types maintain parity too, although some of the better named weapons (http://ddowiki.com/page/List_of_Swashbuckler_weapons_with_improved_crit_pr ofile) still lose out due to Imp Crit changes. For Acrobats, it's a bit more tricky: Sireth still loses DPS, but a bit less than it would otherwise; TF staves will actually gain DPS in LD (16-20/x3 vs 17-20/x3); other named staves are a mix.

Naturally, this presumes Turbine doesn't want all Swashbucklers to switch to rapiers or all Assassins to switch to kukris or all Acrobats to toss out their Sireths. If the imbalance between weapon types is intentional, well, I can't help there, other than to say it's a very bad idea, IMHO. :(

As for Celestial Champion, in order to compensate for the loss of Imp Crit stacking, I would make it a two-tier ability: "Celestial Champion: +1/+2 Critical Threat Range with all weapons (does not apply to handwraps or while in an animal form). When you critically hit with an attack, you gain a stack of Celestial Fervor. A stack of Celestial Fervor grants you +1 Enhancement Bonus to Doublestrike and Doubleshot chance. Stacks up to 5/10 times, with a duration of 6 seconds.[EDP cost:1 Ranks: 2]"

ETA: yes, I know the purpose of the update is to nerf DPS across the board; but DC is already significantly behind LD. If DC loses its stacking crit bonus while LD gains a new one (Pulverizer), it just makes the imbalance between EDs worse, not better. :(

[CThruTheEgo]

A simple solution for Swashbucklers, Acrobats, and Assassins: add a conditional which doubles your crit range bonus if you have the relevant Imp Crit feat. E.g.:

Knife Specialization: You gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier with daggers and kukris. Daggers also gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Threat Range; if you have the Improved Critical:Piercing Weapons feat, this bonus becomes +2.
Staff Specialization: You gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier and Threat Range with Quarterstaves. If you have the Improved Critical:Bludgeoning Weapons feat, you gain an additional +1 bonus to threat range.


For Assassins, daggers & kukris maintain parity with each other. For Swashbucklers, the base weapon types maintain parity too, although some of the better named weapons (http://ddowiki.com/page/List_of_Swashbuckler_weapons_with_improved_crit_pr ofile) still lose out due to Imp Crit changes. For Acrobats, it's a bit more tricky: Sireth still loses DPS, but a bit less than it would otherwise; TF staves will actually gain DPS in LD (16-20/x3 vs 17-20/x3); other named staves are a mix.

Naturally, this presumes Turbine doesn't want all Swashbucklers to switch to rapiers or all Assassins to switch to kukris. If the imbalance between weapon types is intentional, well, I can't help there, other than to say it's a very bad idea, IMHO. :(

As for Celestial Champion, in order to compensate for the loss of Imp Crit stacking, I would make it a two-tier ability: "Celestial Champion: +1/+2 Critical Threat Range with all weapons (does not apply to handwraps or while in an animal form). When you critically hit with an attack, you gain a stack of Celestial Fervor. A stack of Celestial Fervor grants you +1 Enhancement Bonus to Doublestrike and Doubleshot chance. Stacks up to 5/10 times, with a duration of 6 seconds.[EDP cost:1 Ranks: 2]"

/signed to all.

Well said. Based on the claim that these changes are intended to increase build diversity, I would assume their intention is not to favor certain weapons (and other build choices such as destiny). But if that is the case, then other changes need to be made to balance things out. All of these suggestions would go a long way toward finding that balance. Celestial champion certainly needs to be changed if the devs want divine crusader to remain a competitive alternative to dreadnaught.

[lifestaker]

~You know the more I sit and look at the arguments in this thread, the more I see a trend. That trend being the comparison of classes that have been reworked to classes that have yet to be. Monk and fighter is one that has been the most recent. I understand if you made a build with outdated classes and it works, but could be better if X happened. These changes effect every build and hurts the classes that have yet to be updated the most.

Now 'balance' is a term being used to make every class/build be able to compete with any other build. I could be wrong in this but would it not be wiser to invest time into fixing the non updated classes prior to effecting every class with these changes.

Yes you will still have the same fight on your hands when you desire to roll out these changes, but when everything is up to date, will these changes even be needed?

I also realize a failure on Tubine's end for proper clarification of expectations. Collectively you seem to be targeting classes that have been deemed better then other classes (note all said classes are updated/new classes) while also aiming to give long term fixes to issues that would make your game easy for people who invest time into their characters.

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Now the logic of HS being OP was only in the stacking crit range. The IC feat was the broken factor, in that it pulls the critical range after other factors rather then prior, not HS itself. The same can be said for many of the other enhancements that effect critical range, that you target. Is this change needed to HS with the addition of the IC change, or would there be a better way to solve said issue? Can you clarify the logic in this choice verses other options you may have tired.

You have made HS a spell that effects only melee weapons (something I support, but only because I dislike ranged tactics and am admittedly biased) thus hurting paladins that happen to use their bows (something that their religion has deemed as a holy weapon.) This unbalances the paladin, in saying that a paladin should be only a melee character.

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Now the loss of MRR, and reduction of PRR (effective to med and heavy armor) is a thorn in the side to people who desire to run heavier then light armor. Light armor wearers are commonly characters with evasion, while med and heavy are aimed at characters without evasion. Non evasion characters have issues with casters, burst effect spells, and the little MRR gained to make them better was welcomed.

Now can there be clarification to the driving factor behind this imposed change. You make it seem like bad code allowing for benefits to ally while not proficient are the issues. Why would this be a factor to impose a change as stated rather then fix the logic?

But, if people have too much MRR for your liking, would it not be wiser to tone it back fractionally? I don't know like maybe apply a BAB factor into the MRR the same as you do for the PRR. This would allow people to gain MRR based off the same logic as their PRR. Even if MRR<PRR from the armor it is better then 0.

I also fail to see the logic in Shields retaining their MRR when armors do not. Are you saying that only shield wearing defensive focused characters are aimed at to be able to protect against magic. I just fail to see the logic of buffing S&B over S&Orb in that logic. If you desire shields to have the mrr, then you would also have to allow orbs to have the mrr as well. A shield should effect some protection from blast spells (reflex saves mostly) while the orb should grant the same against them (magical shield of protection) and non blasting spells. An item that is made of magic to be used by those who are knowledgeable of magic should offer some protection against magic.

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Divine grace now has a cap on it based off your character levels. This change is to stop people from getting very high saves for 2 levels of investment into paladin. Well okay, I can see why people should be running around with lower saves so that the dcs of monsters are effective against everyone..... I just see this as if you are siding with your monsters more then the players. Almost give the impression that you want the players to fail saves and potentially die. A PvE game is made for people to try to build themselves to be stronger then the environment around them. If people desire to get the saves for taking 2 levels of paladin, is it really that game breaking? What did said player miss out on to get the saves?

I personally do not have an issue with this change, but I fail to see the logic in it. If the saves from cha on a pally are that over powering should we also expect to see changes to the AC granted from monk as well?

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Warlocks are a big issue to me, the reduction will still make them the best trash mob killers around. But quests are against named monsters not trash. Warlocks were already hard to bump up to take out a named monster in a timely manor. Now we reduce that even more? Sorry but I just see warlocks being attacked the same way casters use to be attacked back in the day. Warlocks are the only to date casting class, that you invested in thus far. Nerfing them more at this point only makes an argument for when the other casting classes get updated.

The logic of them being scaled back seems to be that people are upset over the performance of the class vs non casting classes. That is about as effective as measuring the healing of a monk to that of a cleric, or setting a bard as the baseline for dps when it is not a defined dps character (oh wait you do that one). Define your expectations based off similar things. Barbs are great dps, rangers or bards are great secondary (specialists), warlocks would be your caster baseline. Paladin should be judged next to barb and fighter, rouge against the ranger and bards. Warlocks would be effectively your versatile caster, with sorcerers being better at elemental, fvs at alignment, and wizards at dcs.

To forcus on making a caster as good as a non caster sets a low bar for pending caster updates, and I believe you would make casters remain weak compared to non casters.

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Fighter pass is due when?

Would that not be a wiser time to include fighter only feats? Why invest the time into working out logistics of a class that is not updated yet? I just think it would be better investment of time in other areas.

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Open to feedback on things, normally equates to you being able to discuss topics of a change independently of other changes. Pooling all these changes into one thread, without posting discussion threads for each imposed changed makes information become lost. You are setting up players to post here, as the main thread, rather then having proper feedback threads (sticky) in effected areas. This thread should cover the main body and link to corresponding threads. Not doing so makes players create the threads repeatedly and information be lost in the barrage of posts. You have this already shown in loot threads prior to each update, where the unofficial thread gets great feedback from players, while the official thread is the same information but now set in stone.

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Just putting this here again because I feel like it, but can we get the artfile updated so people can make custom UIs? Thinking of just making this part of my signature, but will keep asking till anything is said regarding it. And yes, I ask because I think the UI you have in the game is lifeless and ugly, lacks personal flair, and is currently not able to be reskined. Let people invest into the game to make it look better.

[Jeromio]

Hi. I know I've done more than enough of my fair share of whining already in this thread but something was just brought to my attention.

I need to do an artificer life. It is the last class I need before I am a double completionist.
I love the class between its themes and its unique flavour. I would gladly play a pure artificer again if there was a reason to beyond my own enjoyment of flavour.

As of right now it only really shines from level 1-10. Beyond that it's meh at best.
The MRR changes don't hurt the builds that are overpowered the most. They are already using stalwart stances and displacement. With the removal of armour my artificer will have 0 defensive options beyond a bit of PRR and self healing(if warforged! Reconstruct is not enough with a 50% penalty on fleshies!)
They don't get displacement or blur or any option beyond that unless they splash. These changes take low defensive options to near nothing. Protection from elements barely does a thing in heroics let alone epics! Don't even talk about force or disintegrate. My current life gets hit for 400-700 disintegrates in EE WITH 78 MRR.

Why will anyone bother playing a pure arti after this update? I repeat, the builds you're hurting the most with these changes are not the overpowered ones!

Sorry for the derailing in this thread.

If you want blur on your arty, create a bunch of blur green steel clickie staffs. With 3-5 of those, you'll be able to have perma-blur throughout most quests. 3 might be enough thanks to retain essence, but I personally always create 5 for each of my toons as they are also useful for many other classes.

[TheDr0wRanger]

... and the rest is in gear.

I have level 20(ish) chars with zero ED and not a single item with ML higher then 19. Not even Eveningstar comms gear. Heroic gear only. Epic Hard is not easy. Even on epic normal I have to be carefull.

If I compare how much damage I do and watch some youtube videos, the difference is up to 10 times. Yes, you can litteraly add a 0 at the end.

I did my homework when building that char. Build is good. It's ED, gear, past lifes.

Difference betwen 1st life newbie and old, super twinked vet is up to x10.

No idea why devs want to nerf "heroic" stuff as "epic" is so powerfull you could just as well roll a random heroic build and still win EE. If you have "epic" toys (destiny, gear, past lifes) that is.

You and franOhmsford really are articulating important truth here. A new toon hitting 20, or even 28(if, for example its mostly Druid but wants to leverage Unyielding) is well behind a level 20 TR with a decent set of gear and a prefilled ED. I can't emphasize enough the difference between 28 with your EDs still in progress and level 20 with your primary capped and your twists in place. The more unique a build is, the more likely it's trying to be in an ED it doesn't get at the start, and the more likely that it has massive gaps in its build that require a lot of work to get. I find getting new toons to cap and getting their EDs straightened out to be very much a slog on things like my Monk Crusader.

ED's cause a massive amount of this. At level 18 past lives are great and so is gear, and there is a significant difference between vets and noobs. But at level 20 there is this complete paradigm shift from EDs and twists. Picture three fighters, 2 at level 20, one at 28. built from`1-20 for a conventional and uncomplicated greatsword build and using identical gear.

Assume the guy at level 28 is working for an ED that wasn't available to him a the start, perhaps crusader, such that he is temporarily stuck in an ED that doesn't do him any good. I want this to be just an examination of the bonuses 28 has over 20, ignoring EDs entirely.

Now take the guy at 20 and lets have him be a TR, no twink gear but he has fully capped Legendary Dreadnought, ignoring twists as well.

Assuming he takes only straightforward effective choices, Level 28 guy has 4BAB, 2STR, Blinding Speed, Overwhelming Crit with an extra feat left over, maybe Toughness, in addition to his Perfect THF and Elusive Target(or whatever).

ED guy has 60HP 28 Melee Power, 3 Extra Action Boosts, 33% increase in their length, Improved Power Attack, Momentum Swing, Lay Waste, another(separate timer and separate count) action boost, Advancing Blows, Devastating Crit and Masters Blitz. And that assumes he doesn't care about the available STR from the tree or any of the bonuses in the cores. And this still neglects the availability of twists which could easily offer Cocoon and Primal Scream without being out of the realm of what a normal second life ED will bring.

It's pretty clear even at a glance that level 20 ED guy is outstripping both of the other toons, although the 28 guy is probably not suffering.

But the difference between the two toons at 20, toons that are ostensibly of similar "level" is massive.

[JOTMON]

The changes are designed to cut back on the power of two weapon fighting Paladins, Vanguards, and fix the fact that Paladin 14 hybrids are by many players' estimation the best missile characters. Throwing weapons are not affected by Holy Sword.

Sev~

The problem has been the ability to use holy weapon with 14 Paladin and the Ranger T5 enhancements.

Perhaps instead of just eliminating the missile or twf options for holy sword, add it to one of the T5 enhancements for KoTC.
This way it locks out the T5 Ranger enhancements, but still lets paladins who want to be twf, missile, or even thrower builds(that you still have not allowed to be buffed by holy sword) to be eligible to use the buff.

We want versatility in options not pigeon-holing classes.. DDO has always been a great game for non-cookie cutter builds, don't take that away by removing viable flavor.

[Maelphistez]

So... this thread has grown past my ability to keep up with it and still do my day job. I've read as much of it as I can and at least read all the Dev comments. I know I may be a day late and a dollar short with any suggestions but I wanted to think about the changes as proposed before I made any suggestions. I hope that a Dev takes the time to read these and possibly comment as I have actually put a bit of thought into them.

Holy Sword:
I think many of us will agree that this spell is a bit more powerful that was probably originally intended. But with that said, I wonder about the need to power it down so much since it will be happening in conjunction with the change to Improved Critical. Since the expanded threat provided by Holy Sword will no longer be doubled by Improved Crit, is it truly necessary to make such drastic changes? Not affecting missile weapons is fine I guess although a bit silly considering that the Silver Flame, an extremely Lawful Good religion, has as its holy weapon the LONGBOW. How do you reconcile this? Also, not affecting the off-hand weapon also seems to be a bit of overkill for a non-existent problem.

My suggested solution is this: Expand the religions (As in add Torm) and expand the weapons which are the holy weapons of that religion and make the spell work based on the god choice of the Paladin. Thus, Silver Flame would work on all bows. Sovereign Host would work on Longswords and Bastard swords. Amaunatur would work on maces and morning stars. Etc. From there, leave Holy Sword (Weapon) unchanged.

Armor PRR/MRR changes:
I get that when you have rogues and mages running around in Heavy Armor, perhaps it has been powered up a bit far. I think toning the whole thing down is actually a good idea. I however hate that you are making Fighters spend 4 feats to get back *most* of what has been taken away from them. I know Fighters have a lot of feats, but ouch. Worse than that though, Paladins and Clerics totally get the shaft in this proposal. I think the whole idea while based on a good principle is so poorly executed as to be downright disastrous to the game.

My suggested solution is this: For classes that are currently granted the Heavy Armor feat (Fighter, Paladin, and Cleric) give them an auto-grant like Wilderness or Arcane Lore that at each class level adds +2 PRR and MRR when in Heavy Armor. For classes that are currently granted the Medium Armor feat (Artificer, Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Favored Soul, Fighter, and Paladin) give them an auto-grant that adds +1 PRR and MRR when in Medium Armor. This rewards those classes for staying pure, offers benefits for splashing, and addresses your issue about classes "intended" to wear Heavy Armor getting no more benefit than a Wizard slapping on a suit of plate and hitting Tensers.

Tactics changes
Tactics like Stunning Blow and Improved Trip are fantastic when they work but lost DPS when they fail. I agree that Fighters should be the masters of tactics, but the proposed 4 feats seems quite extreme. The fact that under the proposed system a Fighter with 4 feats spent and a 30 Str would have the same chance to stun as a Barbarian with a 70 Str seems a bit out of whack. Also... 4 Feats? OUCH.

My suggested solution is this: Make the Fighter tactics feat a single feat and scale it by fighter level. On even fighter levels, have it add +1 to Tactics DCs for a total of +10. This gives fighters a nice leg up without costing an exorbitant number of feats and leaves room during the Fighter pass to add some tactics DCs into the enhancements. This also means that Fighters don't become the only class able to Trip and Stun since no other class will even be able to come close to a Fighters scores.

Improved Critical
It's pretty clear to me at least that IC is not working as intended. Having threat range bonuses apply before it is doubled by IC is making some pretty obscene threat ranges. The fact that some Keen weapons are not really working right (you know which ones I mean) and getting their Keen range doubled as well makes the problem even worse. Imp. Critical needs to be fixed.

My suggested solution is this: Just fix the order of operations. Have either IC or Keen double the base threat range of the weapon, then add the range extensions from Enhancements or Destinies. This is how it should have been working in the first place and people who have spent a TON of time farming weapons with extended ranges don't feel like you are giving them the total shaft. Those of us who got our Sireth by grinding a fairly uncommonly run raid (thanks for putting all those Raider boxes out in the world by the way) REALLY feel like you are intentionally sticking it to us. Let's not even talk about those of us who farmed 2 Mornhs and the comms to upgrade them.

Manyshot / 10k Stars
Do you really think that this is still a problem? Monkchers remain one of the highest burst DPS classes, but only when in a specific destiny using a specific series of boosts/enhancements. For trash clearing, they are way... way... WAY... down the power ranking list. So far down that I can't remember the last time I saw a Monkcher being played. I get that you want to "remove lag" from additional projectiles but I think that ship sailed with all of the aura calculations from Radiant Servant, Warlocks, Pale Masters, etc. If you REALLY wanted to fix lag, you'd be working on those. Many of us have pointed out just how awful the lag can be when multiple aura Warlocks are running around in a single quest/raid. You want to fix lag, fix that. Now... as to making Manyshot / 10k stars more sensible... I agree that currently it's not quite performing the way it should.

My suggested solution is this: Manyshot: Make it a multi-selector and a stance. Make the stance exclusive (ie: Imp. Precise Shot OR Manyshot active, but you can have either active with Archer's Focus). With Manyshot, you can choose to fire 2 - 4 arrows a shot. 2 arrows means -4 to hit with both arrows. 3 arrows means -8 to hit. 4 arrows means -12. These numbers seem high, but with the current state of to-hit and armor class they have to be quite high to have any meaning. No doubleshot penalty. 10k stars: Leave it working exactly as it is now except no doubleshot while it is active, but no DS penalty when it's on cooldown.

If you bothered to read those ideas... I appreciate it and hope you will consider some or all of them.

[RD2play]

Maybe I should add that the main problem I have with the proposed changes is not only that it affects the DPS but mainly the playstyle of burst DPS as a whole. I am not interested in some DC tree, I want to have an option of the playstyle I have been enjoying for quite some time. If I wanted to play the sustained autoattack class, I could have choose any other MMO out there that DDO is turning in. If they want to lower the damage as a whole of ALL classes, fine. But why change the core of certain playstyles.

yes this ^^


you should be able to choose either you want to go the burst route, the sustained route or even the CC route!

[Zoda]

Really like all these changes, I actually even think you went really easy on Blood Strength.

Really hope that you are not giving in for people asking to soften the nerfs.

I pretty much hated every "balance" pass you released up until this point, and I'm really glad that you are trying to hold back a bit on the gigantic power creep that has been happening ever since Shadowfel release.

I also think that every generic selfhealing ability (coccoon, sacred ground, bladeforged recon) might require a second look. Healers are not even required in EE raids anymore, there is pretty much 0 use for clerics and stuff, and dedicated crowd controlling characters also lost their purpose exactly because every character got allowed way too much selfheal, and everyone can heal through stuff. If you want DDO to remain (or rather to go back to being) an mmo that requires teamwork and such, you'll have to force players to do teamwork, otherwise we'll just go farther and farther towards a classic hack'n'slash game. I stopped playing my wizard and cleric exactly bacause they became useless in their original form and playstyle and I won't bother to updated them just to make yet another hack'n'slasher that might use magic missiles or whatnot, but still do essentially the same thing. My suggestion at first would be to simply increase manacosts, so classes without their own classic selfhealing abilities won't need a babysitter 24/7, but without some form of cc/healer in group they'd have trouble with SP management at least without pots.

[Hephaistor]

I have said it before and I will say it again, The majority of the player community doesn't come to the forums or go to Lamania.
If your going to impose suck a big nerf across the game and want to see what players think I believe as a customer service solution when players log in advise them that they need to fill out what they like and what the hate in the game.
what they want to see changed.
and promote the website, as a lot of people don't come here.
once you submit a small questionnaire then both devs get correct feed back rather than the same ten people complaining to nerf this nerf that cos they cant play, and also prevents honest people being able to submit their response without the trolling effect.
at this point in time where the total community is down through out all the servers I think ( and I am looking at you Cordovan) that this needs to be looked at as an idea to assist in collecting crucial data for your dev team.
Then once you have all this data you can them make an educated change to what issues your having.
It is like out of the 100% of the community 5% are always on here crying to nerf everything, then there is the 5% of people saying its too easy while the rest of the 90% suffer.
Again don't destroy what you guys have created (spent time and money developing) here, simply bring the broken and dead builds up to scratch. this is a lot more simpler solution to keep the game alive into the future.
going ahead with these proposes will defiantly run the risk of reducing the community.
Thanks.

I think a lot of players that don't come to the forum and don't log onto Lamania wouldn't even recognize the changes ingame if there wasn't so much OMGtheSKYisFALLINGdoooommmWILLRAGEQUIT from a vocal minority that takes this game very, very serious. Apart from the missing PRR/MRR perhaps. (Hardly a holy crossbow user among those imho)

From my pugging experiences there are lots of players that just log in, run a few quests, chats with guildies and won't read a chart about anything game-related ever. (And have a lot of fun that way.) Those players worry about finding a group, completing the quest/raid and getting loot/xp as far as I can tell. Beating EE is great, EH or norm is good too. Sophisticated build plans or getting the highest possible numbers is only the concern of some players, but not all.

In my opinion this pass was mostly demanded and driven by MIN-MAXers complaining about the builds of other MIN-MAXers. And exactly those number-crunchers will be hit most by the pass. As long as the overall concept stays the same, I won’t worry about the “just-for-fun” gamers too much. Heavy armor still gives more PRR than other armors; hitting manyshot fires multiple arrows, rapiers still have a more critical hits than longswords. But people running around yelling: The end is near, this game is gonna die – that worries everyone.. but what can you do?

[Fluffib]

Hi, just wanted to post my thoughts on the changes:

1) Holy Sword - I completely agree, long overdue.

2) Blood Strength - I completely agree, long overdue.

3) Two Weapon Fighting - I think this is a good idea, but I worry that in combination with Holy Sword no longer working for two weapons, and the effective -1 threat range in two weapon fighting trees such as Assassin, it may be a bit too much. It certainly makes the Assassin tree look like the weakest of all the recently revamped melee trees.

4) Pulverizer - Seems like a good idea, something for the low threat range blunt weapons, but I worry that it makes LD too powerful compared to other melee trees, say DC, which is getting an effective -1 threat range nerf.

5) Improved Critical / Keen - I think that some change does need to be make to prevent threat ranges from getting out of control, and while I think this is a good start, I can understand how people with enhanced threat range named items would be disappointed. From a "everyone is getting a nerf" perspective I think it's very fair - my cookie cutter paladin doesn't have a improved threat range item (just thunderforged) but will see her share of nerfs. More importantly, I think it is a step in the right direction, and additional gear choices over time will help get over this.

6) Armor Changes - I completely agree, long overdue. Heavy armor is so much better than light armor now that light armor classes without evasion are wet toilet paper.

7) Eldritch Blast - I agree but worry that it's happening too soon. Warlocks are pretty strong in heroics but it gets more difficult in epics.

Overall I support the idea of making these changes to achieve balance, and I think all the proposed changes are well thought out and I agree with most of them. I think this game is going in the right direction and in light of these proposed changes am happy to continue to support the game financially.

[Chaoscheerio]

don't arti get UMD? get yourself some scrolls blur/ displace/ spellresist ??? and there are items in the game that grant perma blur also

Good enough point minus the spell resist, because that's not a spell.

And again, expecting someone to go through how many shrouds or raids to get an item that makes them on par with things granted to a fighter for free, is asking a bit much.

[RD2play]

Good enough point minus the spell resist, because that's not a spell.

And again, expecting someone to go through how many shrouds or raids to get an item that makes them on par with things granted to a fighter for free, is asking a bit much.

from the wiki: Spell Resistance (spell) - for the level 5 Cleric spell and Favored Soul spell buff.
Spell Resistance, Mass - for the level 7 Cleric spell and Favored Soul spell buff.
you can buy scrolls in house P

[Chaoscheerio]

from the wiki: Spell Resistance (spell) - for the level 5 Cleric spell and Favored Soul spell buff.
Spell Resistance, Mass - for the level 7 Cleric spell and Favored Soul spell buff.
you can buy scrolls in house P

again proving me the fool, cut it out you!

[Nestroy]

OK, kept up with the thread for up until in to the 20ies, but threw the towel now. Some of the balancing points are perfectly valid, some of the "bug fixes" long overdue. Mainly Holy Sword going for, ahem, swords and melee weapons, but not for ranged. I do keep myself from the discussion of with Silver Flame Pallys there should be "Holy Bow" possible, or not. Seems a valif argument playwise, and a valid "no" from game mechanics and spell lore. Well... IC - OK, does not work with Keen and makes something good on the out-of-whack crit builds. I cannot understand how the weapons affected were selected and I fear for named items, but generally bugfixing crits is ok with me.

But... So far I am missing two thoughts in the whole discussion we were feverently discussing in my guild, so here we go:


1.) Warlock - why is WL OP? Is it a) DPS or b) survivability? According to my fellow guildies and me, it´s b), Survivability. In end game content EE the WL is doing average DPS at best. There are quite some builds doing much more DPS than the WL, especially in Blitz or on crits. So why cutting back on WL DPS?

WL is an easy button in heroic content, right. In end game the WL looses much of its luster, mainly due to not gaining the automatic damage from lv. up. If WL gained full damage with epic levels, the base damage form the blast would be 14d6+14d4 on lv. 28. Not 9d6+10d4. That would be quite a difference in end game. Instead, we might use epic feats to get 3d6 damage more. Not too bad, but not too good either. Especially when the epic feats are needed elsewhere.

What could have been better to balance WL? Two solutions come to mind, both limiting the WL in other ways than to nerfing the DPS output on both heroic AND epic levels. And especially on epic levels the DPS nerf for WLs will prove fatal - it´s dooming WL to the same fate as Arty. Great until lv. 20, abyssmal on lv. 22+.

Solution one should be a no-brainer: Longer cooldown and less benefit from Tier 5 Enlighted Spirit "Shining Through" enhancement. With a correctly built WL that enhancement alone gives about 700-900 temporary hit points in lv. 20. Seeing WLs running around with about 2000 hit points in end game is more or less common. Since base HP are comparable to Wiz, the WL should have about 600 HP around lv. 20 and about 1000 around lv. 28. Give him a boon of about 1/3 his hit points as a bonus and here we go. And make the cooldown 1 minute at least. You may cranck up the time for healing amp a bit to make good on the nerf. The new formular for temp hit points could be CON X 4 instead of CON x 12 as currently done. This would make WL much more prone to mob damage, on both heroic and epic levels. Now WL ranges top of class in heroic and mid of class in epic elite content. With the change the WL would be good in heroics and somewhat harder to play in EE, but would not loose DPS where it counts most: In End Game.

Solution two might even be better, but might be harder to implement: Make blasts cost one SP each (and each and every aura blast one SP too!). This would go a great length to keep the WL from blasting and aura blasting thru all and every content, especially on heroics, where the WL is most OP. When the WL reaches end game and has 2k SP at her disposal, spending one SP for a blast is no big deal. Neither is the OPedness on DPS any more.


2.) The Armor change. Heavy Armor looses the 30 MRR property. Why this? Less toons playing pyjama party? There is a reason in real world Knights and Samurais were clad in heavy armor. Because this offered the best protection. And yes, this means against magic too. Now, since the armor pass we saw less pyjama builds and more people running in heavy gear. What´s the problem? Easier nerfing the armor than upping monk enhancements? All that nerf will do is to enforce players back into playing 2 rog splashed pyjama builds for max evasion. It´s a mindless and uncalled nerf. If there is too much MRR on heavy armor builds, make sure that PRR and MRR is only given to those builds that know how to wear heavy armor. And that casting and WL blasting is hampered by armor as it is supposed to do. Its not bug fixing to nerf the heavy armors. Fix the bugs instead.

[Gothdom]

This balance pass is probably needed, but I think every enhancement trees will need another pass because some class becomes so nerfed that they aren't fun anymore.

Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Improved Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Greater Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.

This affects the assassin rogue in a way that nobody would want to play one. It's already made of glass and with less Melee Power it won't be any good on DPS, hence making the build useless.

Also I get why there are specific weapons changes, makes for flavor, but it's a game changer. Some weapons won't be used anymore. I guess this one's a bit up in the air and we'll see what happens once implemented. I think it's a good idea on paper though.

As for MRR, if it gets taken out, what will prevent the users from getting one shotted by spells? I mean, all I see will be that armors with blue augment slots being farmed to put in that sapphire of defense +12 in it.

Before I saw the thread, I thought this would mean an inverted scaling between robe,light, med, heavy. Since Robes are for spellcasters, they would have more MRR than PRR and ythe Heavy armors would get More PRR than MRR.

Example of PRR/MRR on a scale of 1 to 5:
PRR MRR
Robe: 1 5
Light: 2 4
Medium: 4 2
Heavy: 5 1

[Tom.JonesJr]

I may be in a minority here but I always found it strange that MRR would be related to the Armor type. Full Plate will still melt if hit by a fireball, or the man in the suite will still be electrocuted. MRR should be tied to the Magic ability of the Armor +1 armor -> 1 MRR, +5 Armor -> 5 MRR, or maybe Armor bonus * 1/4 the min lvl of the armor for better scaling.

[FestusHood]

This is an old game that has lost respect for the core game its based on is why its got a constant drain. The higher power level was slowing the drain down. I hope they like the numbers after these nerfs. the best shot they would have to revitalize the base would be to go back to most of the core of say D&D 3.5. then advertise the **** out of it.

but a slow bleed out is better than a severed artery. Unless the owner is just trying to squeeze the last bit of player base out to free up the D&D license for a new Smite style game...or DDO Candy Crush.

Going back to 3.5 ruleset would reduce the overall power level much more compared to what is being done here. If the power level is what is slowing down the drain, how would reversing it enormously be beneficial?

I"m not an old timer, but i'm a middle timer. Before Motu, players received basically no benefit at all from wearing armor. The only time shields provided any benefit was when you blocked with them. Before the enhancement pass, nobody had outrageous crit profiles. They decided to change that. They went too far. Now they are dialing it back some. After these changes, players will still be much more powerful than they were before armor up.

If they go all the way back to 3.5 rules, what are you suggesting? A complete 100% turnover of the population? If people can't handle these nerfs, they sure aren't going to be able to deal with going back to that.

[changelingamuck]

This balance pass is probably needed, but I think every enhancement trees will need another pass because some class becomes so nerfed that they aren't fun anymore.

Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Improved Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Greater Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.

This affects the assassin rogue in a way that nobody would want to play one. It's already made of glass and with less Melee Power it won't be any good on DPS, hence making the build useless.

We don't know how much the increased attack speed for TWF due to the animation change will make up for the loss of melee power. I think it's too early to call the time of death for assassin rogues without that information, surely.

Even if the TWF attack speed wasn't being increased, isn't using the word "useless" and declaring that "nobody would want to play one" a little bit of an exaggeration? "Nobody" is a lot people. And I must not be a person because I would still play a pure rogue assassin.

[Edwardt]

FINALLY!

Epic Elites are NOT easy for a 1st, 2nd, 3rd or even 4th Life character that still has Destinies to fill! [...]



Right!

I wonder who complains about it's getting too easy.. right, the longterm endgame all-completionists who invested a lot of time and money in the game to reach their goal.

On our small Wayfinder server there is not one of that kind and one, who's getting close to it.

When I observe the way he's playing compared to those (two of them) with exactly the same build and gear (but with less heroic/epic pastlifes) the numbers of kills and deaths should be balanced. But they are by far not.

The big difference is the skill of the player (the eye-hand coordination), the technical equiptment and the questknowledge.

-- this issue is impossible to balance --

With this in mind I'm sure some of the considered changes will break more than they will fix.

There are some issues that need a tweak, but what i read on the first page makes me feel uncomfortable.



[...]
Acrobat using Sireth in DC:

Old: 18-20/x2 base -> 17-20/x3 Staff Spec -> 16-20/x3 Celestial Champion -> 11-20/x3 IC:Blunt -> 11-18/x3 19-20/x4 Overwhelming Crit
New: 18-20/x2 base -> 17-20/x3 Staff Spec -> 16-20/x3 IC:Blunt -> 15-20/x3 Celestial Champion -> 15-18/x3 19-20/x4 OC

Net loss of 8 effective hits
[...]

This will change one of my toons into another bank-toon. To ruin gear which is not so easy to get/upgrade and make a propper build for it is not a nice move.

Removing the prr from the armor is not the best idea. - this will increase the gap between firstlife characters and completionist even more.

Removing the mrr is not necessarily logic - I think heavy armor will migrate more incoming damage from a fireball than having no armor. Or, why do firefighters wear resistant cloth?

Nerfing the Barbarian after you just made him payable will upset some player, I guess.

More feats for the Fighter is nice, indeed. Nerfing the Warlock.. maybe, but I don't see a hugh problem here. I can't say anything about archers and their loss, it was simply too long ago I played one.

- over all - I will not be pleased with this changes

[Gothdom]

We don't know how much the increased attack speed for TWF due to the animation change will make up for the loss of melee power. I think it's too early to call the time of death for assassin rogues without that information, surely.

Even if the TWF attack speed wasn't being increased, isn't using the word "useless" and declaring that "nobody would want to play one" a little bit of an exaggeration? "Nobody" is a lot people. And I must not be a person because I would still play a pure rogue assassin.

I used to be one when they did the rogue pass. It was fun, but too many insta-death before and after the pass. Made me feel like a third wheel in a group. After the pass, I felt I could deal some good damage before dying. Scrolls and Potions won't heal fast enough. I'm just concerned that it will affect an assassin build too much. I understand where they are coming from, but when Sevs says "The changes are designed to cut back on the power of two weapon fighting Paladins, Vanguards". They did apply some Melee Power in the rogue trees to compensate already, but I'm afraid assassins will go back to third wheel. Again, we'll see once it's applied.

[Bennum]

I have been a monkcher for more than a year and never once have I noticed extra lag from Mantshot or 10k.

Yeah I'm pretty sure the lag may be "imaginary" with regards to manyshot/ 10k.

[PermaBanned]

Actually, I think dropping the MRR makes total sense. Having all armor innately protect/mitigate vs magic spells seemed a bit silly. Having armor protect/mitigate vs plain ol' physical damage is proper. IMO, this is how it should've been from the beginning of armor up: choice of Med/Hvy Armor for physical protection; or Cloth/Lt armor for Evasion (protection/mitigation vs most traps & spells).


And then we're back to pre armor up no heavy armor days again with more people playing arcane and ranged units. It's not brain surgery.Not at all. Pre armor up, Hvy/Med armor was terrible because the only protection it offered was AC; a system that was borked and hasn't much improved. At that time, Dodge had become the new AC, and Hvy/Med armor was too restrictive for that. To get a high Dodge, you had to go Cloth or Light anyway so the Evasion splashes only made practical sense.

Post armor up, the choice should've been between good magical protection (Evasion) that offers little physical protection (sure you have Dodge, but when you're hit those hits will hurt) or good physical protection that offers little magical protection. That's not what we got, all Armor Up did was change from one no-brainer to a different no-brainer. Now they offer the choice that they should have initially - though with the PRR nerf & proficiency bug fix... hmm...

I don't like the double nerf (losing both MRR & base PRR) to armor. I think losing the magical mitigation (and for some losing the bugged BaB contribution) would've "made" some folks *rerollincarnate to better suit their playstyle and preference for physical vs magical protection/mitigation. I'm concerned they've trimmed the PRR difference between Light (which is almost synonymous with high Dodge & Evasion), Medium and Heavy armors down too much - and not at all convinced it needed trimming - to actively promote build diversity. I'm fairly certain it was the bug and PRR/MRR combo that was over performing and not the base PRR of armor.

*yes, I felt like making up a word ;)

[Cordovan]

I agree with you. Warlock is totally overpowered on heroic and still very efficient on epic.

If, after these adjustments, there is still a widespread concern about Warlock power, we will address it. As we've repeatedly stated these kind of changes are an ongoing process, not a one-and-done.


I *really* hope you guys are looking closely at in-game data. Epic will be easy, and heroic will be way too easy, for characters on their Nth life with every raid item available at every level while leveling up. Many lower-life, or first lifers, have plenty of challenge on many of the quests when running it on hard/elite and not having done it a billion times. Be cautious you don't overcompensate for a handful of people with dozens of PL/EPL feats, and totally leave all the newer or less-PL-endowed players, getting stomped..

I mean, the "too easy" argument is always a double edged sword. People who think games are "too easy" never want to build an non-optimum character, or take off an item, the game has to cater to their character's endless growth, nevermind if it takes a dump on newer players.

"The game is too easy" translates more readily into "cater the game to my character's power level, however intended or thematic it may or may not be."

That people are so worried about the change to ONE SINGLE SPELL for paladin clearly highlights how broken it is. Period. That's just silly. And it emphasizes what I'm sayin' - the game isn't always "too easy" if you don't cram all this nonsense into builds that make no sense just to more or less break the system.. but that's also part of DDOs appeal.. but you can't really be surprised when it's "too easy." :P The game has to be playable by first and second life characters who don't exactly have every little thing about their build perfected..

Yes, trying to find a happy balance between heavily invested players with many past lives and top gear and newer players is always a challenge. We have been hearing from many of these heavily-invested players that they no longer feel the game is offering them enough of a challenge, at least in part due to the increased power we've provided through class updates and other changes in the past year or so. We also intend to provide these players with increased challenge through Reaper difficulty in the not-coming-soon future, but feel these changes are necessary to provide a challenging but fun experience to as wide a section of the player base as possible.

We want to hear from as many people as we can; if there is a large unrepresented group of players who feel the game is currently too difficult, we would be interested in hearing from them.

I did want to mention to the participants in the thread that I've had to delete a couple of dozen posts to try to keep the discussion on-topic. Conversations about who is exploiting, and what an exploit is, is not on-topic, nor are cooking tips. :)

[Cordovan]

Yeah I'm pretty sure the lag may be "imaginary" with regards to manyshot/ 10k.

I think it is overly reductive to say that "manyshot/10k stars causes lag." Rather, it is probably better to state that these abilities contribute to an environment that is causing degraded game performance, and adjusting these abilities are part of a wider effort to improve the experience in-game and reduce "lag". I put lag in quotes because things that, say, cause the game engine to chug poorly when done in large quantities might be described as "lag" by those experiencing it, even though it is not technically related to communication between the client and server.

[patang01]

If, after these adjustments, there is still a widespread concern about Warlock power, we will address it. As we've repeatedly stated these kind of changes are an ongoing process, not a one-and-done.

I hope you also realize that if you keep carving in pay 2 play classes you'll end up with a lot of players that won't buy future releases of pay 2 play classes and races. And why would they? I'm VIP so you making Warlock less appealing only means I go back to Sorc. But for premium buyers this behavior have some ramification. Listening to people who envy player power can be a dreadful thing to do.

[RD2play]

about the 6/6/8 build!


We think this should still be a viable build, and certainly want it to be a viable build. It's true that Ten-Thousand Stars would be strong for someone with more monk levels.


I don't agree!, 6 monk will give 30%DS vs chance for up to 4 arrows current ! 12 monk will give 60% DS and monk gives no DS in its enhancments so no way to wrap 100% DS on a 6/6/8.

I am ok with the changes to MS they seem fine.... 10k however will be utterly useless on anything other than a pure monk (with minor splash) and pure monk does not further boost ranged in its trees! so forced to go elf/H-elf to at least get access to AA. The simple fact of the matter is that a pure monk might be a viable archer, but then you will need to multi to get some ranged stuff but multying will relegate 10k into uselessness.

I posted before to maybe change 10K* DS to 40%+monk*3, where 20monk =100%, 12monk=76%, 6monk=58%

So please do not tell me that my current Dwarf/6rgr/6mnk/ftr8 will be viable ranged after this pass because it will not be ! (I don't really care that I will have to TR or reroll or even change some class levels in my build, but the current set-up I have will no longer be viable)

[Arkai]

Hello, quick questions:

a) Is anything changing after these 41 forum pages of feedback, or all the balance things will remain the same?

b) Is there any chance for pure tempest or assasin to get back the lost 6 Melee power points? Perhaps into their core trees?


Thanks

[Turtlsdown]

Sorry if this has been already said in the thread and I missed it (so many pages), but any chance the Holy Sword effect could be categorized in-game as a song (for the game engine's purposes only I mean)? This way it wouldn't get constantly dispelled in quests where that sort of thing happens? Having to reapply it over and over in such situations would serve nothing other than to annoy, and that would be kinda lame :/

[Seikojin]

Hello, quick questions:

a) Is anything changing after these 41 forum pages of feedback, or all the balance things will remain the same?

b) Is there any chance for pure tempest or assasin to get back the lost 6 Melee power points? Perhaps into their core trees?


Thanks

Lamannia may go as these changes suggest so we can get data. The less participation and feedback, the less likely things will be changed from what is put on Lamannia. So when it is up, rock it and make some feedback.

[Arkai]

Lamannia may go as these changes suggest so we can get data. The less participation and feedback, the less likely things will be changed from what is put on Lamannia. So when it is up, rock it and make some feedback.

Sure, I'm eager to see the new animation of the twf attack D:

[Thar]

I think it is overly reductive to say that "manyshot/10k stars causes lag." Rather, it is probably better to state that these abilities contribute to an environment that is causing degraded game performance, and adjusting these abilities are part of a wider effort to improve the experience in-game and reduce "lag". I put lag in quotes because things that, say, cause the game engine to chug poorly when done in large quantities might be described as "lag" by those experiencing it, even though it is not technically related to communication between the client and server.

This may be a little off topic but i recall a Dev confirming about a year+ ago the i2049/i2050 crafting instance lag and looking into doing something on that server or crafting instance. Is this still in the works? When there is massive lag in a normal quest (and raids) it is often these instances.

[Artagon]

I am ok with the changes to MS they seem fine.... 10k however will be utterly useless on anything other than a pure monk (with minor splash) and pure monk does not further boost ranged in its trees! so forced to go elf/H-elf to at least get access to AA. The simple fact of the matter is that a pure monk might be a viable archer, but then you will need to multi to get some ranged stuff but multying will relegate 10k into uselessness.

I disagree. Strictly speaking, a monkcher with only 6 levels of monk will likely have a 50% uptime of +30% doubleshot and an extremely lowball estimated +30 ranged power if they decide to go dex-based for more up-front damage (Personally I would, since base damage also feeds into manyshot). Compare this to a pure ranger.. who gets no real benefits for doing so, other than Deepwood Sniper, which does not add significant DPS at the 18 core. Strictly speaking, any elven monkcher will be better than a pure ranger due to 10k stars. My personal breakdown would probably end up being 12 ranger, 8 monk, for the extra 10% doubleshot and to maintain the crit profile boost from deepwood sniper.

The current proposal may not be as overwhelmingly powerful as the live version, but it still competes extremely favorably with a pure ranger, perhaps TOO favorably, imho. Personally, I'm hoping for a boost to ranger or deepwood stalker at high levels to make them competitive with the monkcher, because it still isn't quite there.

[Ellihor]

you should be sorry, instead of having a rational discussion or even validating your point of view you call posters ignorant and stupid.
So while you lord your all knowing pretention of knowledge over others you just come across as an.. not nice person.
Hopefully you get cubed and pickup a couple infraction points for your insults..

It is a rational discussion for the specific subject I was quoting. You should scroll back some pages and read it from start if you want to engage.

[RD2play]

I disagree. Strictly speaking, a monkcher with only 6 levels of monk will likely have a 50% uptime of +30% doubleshot and an extremely lowball estimated +30 ranged power if they decide to go dex-based for more up-front damage (Personally I would, since base damage also feeds into manyshot). Compare this to a pure ranger.. who gets no real benefits for doing so, other than Deepwood Sniper, which does not add significant DPS at the 18 core. Strictly speaking, any elven monkcher will be better than a pure ranger due to 10k stars. My personal breakdown would probably end up being 12 ranger, 8 monk, for the extra 10% doubleshot and to maintain the crit profile boost from deepwood sniper.

The current proposal may not be as overwhelmingly powerful as the live version, but it still competes extremely favorably with a pure ranger, perhaps TOO favorably, imho. Personally, I'm hoping for a boost to ranger or deepwood stalker at high levels to make them competitive with the monkcher, because it still isn't quite there.

I was talking about 6/6/8 builds for the rest I might agree

[Mirta]

Hello, quick questions:

a) Is anything changing after these 41 forum pages of feedback, or all the balance things will remain the same?

Anybody who has played this game long enough can tell you these are release notes. Turbine made up their minds long ago about these changes. They do these "feedback" threads to soften the blow for when it goes live. They do not listen to feedback about things until long after they go live, and then usually ignore anything constructive.

[CheeseMilk]

Apologies if this has been asked before, but I assume these changes would come along with a future update or patch?

I ask because I'm curious as to whether things that need to be "tweaked" in the future can be done live, or only with a game update, or whether it's a combination of both depending on what needs tweaking.

[dunklezhan]

I hope you also realize that if you keep carving in pay 2 play classes you'll end up with a lot of players that won't buy future releases of pay 2 play classes and races. And why would they? I'm VIP so you making Warlock less appealing only means I go back to Sorc. But for premium buyers this behavior have some ramification. Listening to people who envy player power can be a dreadful thing to do.

Your point is well made - I still haven't bought warlock for instance, because I simply assumed, based on past experience, that as a Powerful New Thing it would get hit with a nerf bat reasonably soon, after which it would go on sale. So I've just been waiting for that. So it has harmed sales, because over the course of 7 years I have just about started to penetrate The Ways Of Turbine's Development Cycle. I might've paid full price but a: warlock is incredibly expensive TP wise in my view so I'd probably have waited for a sale anyway and b: I knew this would happen.

I don't think its even deliberate on their part, which is quite sad, but I guess it's better than the alternative where its a deliberate marketing ploy.

I'll wait for warlock (and any new class, race or enhancement tree) to settle and then experience the thing as it's going to be, long term, when I can actually plan for it. First 6 months after a new class/enhancement tree comes out is a really dumb time to let yourself get sucked in to the point where the inevitable nerf bat will 'ruin' your game. I can't understand why anyone would do this to themselves - heck I only just picked up Swashbuckler a few weeks ago and even that was against my better judgement, it was clearly still too powerful and due for a nerf and yep, here comes the crit nerf bat (which, as it happens I don't object to).


Edit: I am also most put out that there has been no response to the three posts I think I've made now asking the devs to comment on the lower number of on hit/oncrit/& chance on hit procs from ranged during manyshot and 10K stars, and whether or not that has been included in the claim that we now have better overall DPS due to the removal of the doubleshot penalty. I've asked politely three times now, and inbetween then and now there have been maybe four dev posts in this thread quoting multiple people and not answering that question, which I know others have asked. Come on, I know there's a lot here but I'm doing everything you want - I'm being respectful, polite, not arguing with folk, staying on topic... it would be nice, is all.

[Dendrix]

Improved Critical Feat and the Keen weapon ability should stack their critical range improvements.

[Spoonwelder]

Now, that same character will have 5*6 = 30% doubleshot added to their own doubleshot, which sustained, is typically between 20-50%. So around an 80% chance for a second arrow. No chance for 3rd or 4th arrow.

Over 20 seconds, Old 10k (RoF of once per second in example) would give this character 20 arrows + 20 arrows + 10 arrows + 1.6 arrows for a total of 51.6 arrows. New 10k gives 20 arrows + 16 arrows = 36 arrows. That is a drop off of 30%. (With a 70+ wisdom you are looking at 60 arrows vs. 36 arrows. Almost a 50% reduction in RoF)

All new 10k adds is RP equal to wisdom. In this case 56RP. which is roughly 50% more base damage only. No damage from on proc events or extra damage. That's not going to be close to equivalent. Unless you just don't have any gear or enhancements or ED features that add extra damage.

etc.......

You are forgetting that you get 45sec without the doubleshot penalty so 45s x 50% doubleshot or 22.5 more arrows which more than makes up that difference (58.5vs 51.6) and you add the ranged power to base (and any damage bonuses that factor in RP some of the AA changes coming will help that plus others like Merciful Shot)....sorry but when I look at my damage scroll by it is 100+6+10+6......the adds are minor. And I think the math is close enough that it isn't as major a drop as you think. Then add in the bump you get for not being a shallow monk splash on a 12/18/20 level monk build and you more than make up the difference......theoretically.

[Spoonwelder]

I don't know about "reasonable". "Max possible" sounds more accurate. Also, don't bother listing the elf one. You ran out of AP's. It would take 90 to have that plus the capstone for AA and the tier 5 DWS.

Elf yes I wasnt sure if it would fit in doing the quick list - but reasonable/max possible are the same thing if you are a ranged focussed character....especially now with the changes to manyshot and 10k and no doubleshot off timer.

The only thing hard in there is 20% from AA capstone (if you aren't pure you are SOL) and 3% profane from shadowstriker(fairly easy to get the mats but still would take some time if you don't have multiple alts running Deathwyrm/Peaks or can't find mats on the AH). That still puts you at over 50%.

[Grosbeak07]

I've read the proposed changes, thought about them, talked about them with others in and out of game.

While there is no denying some of these are nerfs, they are a) not that severe and b) needed for the game to grow any as we head to level 30 and beyond.

Will these changes promote build diversity? In some ways, we'll see fewer Paladin hybrids, but DDO players have a long history adjusting and excelling and I have no doubt players will again. Remember, people were just as angry when their Batman builds got nerfed way back when. But it won't promote a lot of build diversity, not until all the classes get a buff, 3rd enhancement trees added and other weapon types get buffed to become useful.

Will these changes add challenge? Not really. It may take a few seconds longer to kill a boss monster, but won't seriously impact or add challenge to the game. Challenge in this game, can only come from creative quests and encounters. Encounters that require a variety of skills and abilities to succeed, not simply DPS beat downs.

Sometimes you need to take a step back to move forward. I hope this is the step back that is needed to move the game forward.

[patang01]

Your point is well made - I still haven't bought warlock for instance, because I simply assumed, based on past experience, that as a Powerful New Thing it would get hit with a nerf bat reasonably soon, after which it would go on sale. So I've just been waiting for that. So it has harmed sales, because over the course of 7 years I have just about started to penetrate The Ways Of Turbine's Development Cycle. I might've paid full price but a: warlock is incredibly expensive TP wise in my view so I'd probably have waited for a sale anyway and b: I knew this would happen.

I don't think its even deliberate on their part, which is quite sad, but I guess it's better than the alternative where its a deliberate marketing ploy.

I'll wait for warlock (and any new class, race or enhancement tree) to settle and then experience the thing as it's going to be, long term, when I can actually plan for it. First 6 months after a new class/enhancement tree comes out is a really dumb time to let yourself get sucked in to the point where the inevitable nerf bat will 'ruin' your game. I can't understand why anyone would do this to themselves - heck I only just picked up Swashbuckler a few weeks ago and even that was against my better judgement, it was clearly still too powerful and due for a nerf and yep, here comes the crit nerf bat (which, as it happens I don't object to).


Edit: I am also most put out that there has been no response to the three posts I think I've made now asking the devs to comment on the lower number of on hit/oncrit/& chance on hit procs from ranged during manyshot and 10K stars, and whether or not that has been included in the claim that we now have better overall DPS due to the removal of the doubleshot penalty. I've asked politely three times now, and inbetween then and now there have been maybe four dev posts in this thread quoting multiple people and not answering that question, which I know others have asked. Come on, I know there's a lot here but I'm doing everything you want - I'm being respectful, polite, not arguing with folk, staying on topic... it would be nice, is all.

It's for that reason I stay VIP. Yes, in the long haul I pay for content others bought a long time ago, but then as the pile of new quests increase and races and such are added, I can at least not feel cheated buying premium stuff Turbine end up smacking.

So if they do add say a gnome race or whatever class and it's not included in VIP I won't bother with it. The constant shaving of Warlock, particularly on the input from people who don't play it or pay for it, makes me think that I rather not waste my money on bait and switch shinies. I just can't see anyone buying Warlock and going 'Hey, this is too much power for my money - please slap it'.

[Spoonwelder]

Note, for a halfling monkcher with 12 monk levels using AA tier 5 the actual number is 29% and thats only at level 28.
Ship, quiver, EPL and epic feat.

Yes but that specific build was about being on doubleshot timer all the time so you didn't care about doubleshot. The new changes will change your incentives and you will rejig your AP to maximize your damage output and that will be via DS%.

[dunklezhan]

post essentially deleted: I've allowed myself to post completely off topic really. Stupid me, I'll say no more on this particular subject.

[patang01]

I used to sub for the same reason, I just decided I simply wasn't playing enough to justify it anymore - which is a real life issue, not actually dissatisfaction with the game particularly. And incidentally, I have never called for a nerf to warlock. Other people's power doesn't detract from my game. I just recognise that it was over powered and I've heard the same from several guildies whilst ?they were playing one.

Edit - and now I've allowed myself to post completely off topic really. Stupid me, I'll say no more on this topic.

I still play this one game mainly. I do take breaks (like the one coming up when Fallout 4 comes out) but I see a value for it still. That might change; it just depends how pigeonholed they make everything. Pre armor up things got so boring I took a 3-4 month break. It was awful. Particularly after the terrible Shadowfell.

[luboolis]

Hello everyone.

I found the following quote a little bit confusing:



...
Repeating Crossbows and Doubleshot
Fixed a bug where Doubleshot was not being reduced for repeating crossbows. (Doubleshot chance is divided by 3 for repeating crossbows.)
...
Sev~

Could you please clarify the following:

1. Is doubleshot applied for the whole salvo? I mean that there are normally 3 bolts in one salvo. Is dobleshot proc gonna add 3 bolts?

2. Will it be the full bonus used for fusillade that does not use salvo mechanic?

3. What is a ranged DPS baseline and what kind of testing you have performed to get the number 1/3 for repeater doubleshot chance? If you want me to test it in Lamania, please explain what results you expect.

4. The proposed changes (including IC) will decrease Arti's DPS even further. Are there any plans to compensate this loss?

In conclusion I would like to thank you for determination and commitment in game balancing. It would be nice if you share with us your balanced game vision.

[RD2play]

Apologies if this has been asked before, but I assume these changes would come along with a future update or patch?

I ask because I'm curious as to whether things that need to be "tweaked" in the future can be done live, or only with a game update, or whether it's a combination of both depending on what needs tweaking.

u28 patch 1 according to the Wednesday stream

[Cordovan]

Apologies if this has been asked before, but I assume these changes would come along with a future update or patch?

I ask because I'm curious as to whether things that need to be "tweaked" in the future can be done live, or only with a game update, or whether it's a combination of both depending on what needs tweaking.

The plan is for these changes to go into effect with Update 28 Patch 1. We would like these done ahead of our level cap increase, among other reasons. A game update is needed to make these changes. Some things can be adjusted without a new game build or downtime, but the way enhancements and feats work, for example, requires code change.

[KevinMullins]

Apologies if this has been asked before, but since Warlock class is getting downgraded can we expect to see rebate because we bought oranges but now are going to have lemons?

[CeltEireson]

Anybody who has played this game long enough can tell you these are release notes. Turbine made up their minds long ago about these changes. They do these "feedback" threads to soften the blow for when it goes live. They do not listen to feedback about things until long after they go live, and then usually ignore anything constructive.

Not entirely true - they did make a substantial number of changes to their original Deepwood Sniper review based on player feedback so they do listen on occasion. Whether they do this time or not is another matter - of course even if they choose to listen to which players feedback should they listen? Because everyone here seems to have their own opinion about how things should be ;)

And of course there's a difference between listening and agreeing.

[RD2play]

Apologies if this has been asked before, but since Warlock class is getting downgraded can we expect to see rebate because we bought oranges but now are going to have lemons?

RTFM, according to the licence agreement the dev's can change anything in the game at any time and don't have to give you anything. Be glad that at least they are upfront and allow you the opportunity to address issues you might be having with these changes!

That said warlock will still be powerful after these changes!

[KevinMullins]

An example you remove 10% power from class I would in turn expect to see a 10% reduction in class cost and a rebate to all those who purchased it. At 1395 TP I don't see this as unreasonable, just good faith that no bait and switch is going on.

[RD2play]

~not been to lamma yet so nothing about 2wf will check out asap as I do love my 2wf builds

~Yes ! please, one question: will it apply only to one arrow with the new DS else maybe just Fix.

[Boneshank]

Do you have any actual data to back that up with, rather than speculation about their rates of fire? The repeater has a long animation for reloading, which the bow does not, so I'm not so sure it's that big of a discrepancy. I have never done any rate of fire testing for ranged options, so I honestly don't know. But you're post (and the numbers you provide) sounds more like speculation rather than actual data.

EDIT: I'm willing to concede the point if that's what it is, but you're "let's say" example doesn't really convince me.
I really need to explain this?

Equip each weapon (preferably on toons spec'd to optimize them, so each has maximum RoF relative to the weapon).
Use a buff or something as a timer. Hold down attack button & count number of shots in one minute.
I know, counting is hard. But you should then have your baseline SPM to apply the doubleshot to.
Unless you wouldn't believe that either, without dev confirmation. In which case, keep holding your hand up, your teacher will eventually take notice.

EDIT:
Just counted shots fired for one minute, on 3 (near)optimized toons for longbow (pinion), light repeater (needle), and gxbow (temple).
Repeated each test 3 times, with same results. No haste boosts or anything were used, just a regular standing RoF.
Repeater = 153spm.
Gxbow = 98spm.
Longbow = 79spm.
Now apply the doubleshot to those numbers.

[RD2play]

An example you remove 10% power from class I would in turn expect to see a 10% reduction in class cost and a rebate to all those who purchased it. At 1395 TP I don't see this as unreasonable, just good faith that no bait and switch is going on.

well with these changes we are probably going to get some form or heart to do our rebuilds, this could be construed as an rebate

[Gunnolfr45]

A couple of points from a newish VIP (main character on 4th life now):

1. Barbarians and Paladins are getting double nerfed in this - Pally's with Holy Sword changes, Barbs with self-heal changes STACKED with the changes to heavy armor. I project that these changes will make both classes significantly more challenging to play. The armor changes proposed will basically make ONLY fighters capable of getting any realistic advantage out of heavy armor - no other class has enough feats. Likewise tactical melee feats - a maxed out Epic Barbarian will be stunning/tripping less frequently then a mid-high Heroic fighter with tactical feats maxed.

2. I'm glad I ran through my Warlock life before this second Nerf. Honestly, the 'lock is over powered, as "fun" as it was to crush through huge mobs, it was silly routinely having my kill count more than 50% of kills in full groups.

3. If you REALLY want to "balance" the game - have every quest have the option to play or not play traps. Frankly, the game is not-playable, solo, on Elite (either Heroic or Epic) unless the solo class is a Rogue, Arti, or heavy splash of either. So, while super OP warlocks crush everything in sight, the first string of Elite traps insta kills them (and every other class in the game). I'm sure this is intentional, to get players to spend money on Gold Seal Rogue hirelings, but, when even the hireling can't disable the trap in EE content, you pretty much limit play WAY worse than any "power imbalance."

4. In a similar vein, the transition from Heroic to Epic level difficulties is broken. Player capabilities and HP don't increase dramatically (if at all), while Mob HP, damage output, and number sky rockets. The same "OP" warlock in Heroic, playing L20 EE scenarios at level 24-25, routinely gets CRUSHED when the first wave of mobs hits (forget about Champion red names - they're just as deadly as the traps, only slower in the take down...)

I've got other thoughts, but nothing I can put down coherently right now.

Thanks for taking the time to read this - if everything above has already been said, sorry for the repetition.

[Avocado]

Holy Sword (Paladin)
This is now a spell that affects the paladin and buffs whatever melee weapon is being wielded in the main hand.
It no longer persists on your weapon but instead buffs the melee weapon you are holding in your main hand. (Yes, this buffs your two handed weapons.)
It no longer affects missile weapons.
It no longer can be used to buff off hand weapons or shields.
If you change weapons the spell will drop off the unequipped weapon and instead be applied to the newly equipped weapon.

Sev~

All calculations done with Epic Demonic Slab.
After taking a second look at this. My calculations have concluded that this will reduce shield damage by 25% if you running a vanguard. This is only if tower shields get a +3 bonus to crit range. Since it hasnt been confirmed how Impact will affect shields I just assumed it was +3. At +2 range it's a 30% decrease in dps and at +1 it's 38%. That is very significant amount of damage. Please reconsider. I would accept a 10% reduction in damage but 25% is a little overkill.


If you left holy sword to work with shields but made Impact give +3 range you reduce shield dps by 15%
+2 range w/holy sword 23% decrease
+1 range w/holy sword 30% decrease
+3 w/o holy sword 25% decrease
+2 w/o holy sword 30% decrease
+1 w/o holy sword 38% decrease

Take this into consideration on a almost max dps vanguard.

[Thrudh]

Another perspective would be to flip each of these: Does adding PRR/MRR to all armor automatically make DDO better or "increase options"? If barbarians didn't take damage and never needed healing would it be a better game? Does increasing DPS automatically enhance the game experience?

Every one of these questions is about finding the right spot across a gray scale. Getting the exact right answer is always going to be quite difficult. Getting a group of people (developers, players, both) to agree on the exact right answer verges on impossible, so we can only do the best we can.

These devs are very wise.

Seriously, I think you guys are doing a great job and have a very good perspective on how to balance this game.

[ValariusK]

Assuming you're planning on addressing the critical ranges of special weapons (e.g., Oathblade, SoS, Deathnips, and lots of staves and daggers), I don't have any major issue with these changes. However in all the talk of pallies, barbs, and fighters, we really need to consider clerics and FVS. For this I suggest a QUICK fix of the following, since we know their pass is probably still a long ways off.
To the warpriest line, add 5 MRR to each core. That will keep these predominantly heavy armor users that nobody complains about being overpowered largely at the status quo in terms of durability against magical assault.

[Artagon]

All calculations done with Epic Demonic Slab.
After taking a second look at this. My calculations have concluded that this will reduce shield damage by 25% if you running a vanguard. This is only if tower shields get a +3 bonus to crit range. Since it hasnt been confirmed how Impact will affect shields I just assumed it was +3. At +2 range it's a 30% decrease in dps and at +1 it's 38%. That is very significant amount of damage. Please reconsider. I would accept a 10% reduction in damage but 25% is a little overkill.


If you left holy sword to work with shields but made Impact give +3 range you reduce shield dps by 15%
+2 range w/holy sword 23% decrease
+1 range w/holy sword 30% decrease
+3 w/o holy sword 25% decrease
+2 w/o holy sword 30% decrease
+1 w/o holy sword 38% decrease

Take this into consideration on a almost max dps vanguard.

I think the intention is to look forward to the Fighter pass and figuring out what it would take to make them viable in vanguard when compared with Paladin. If they reconsider the change and apply holy sword back to shields, how would you expect the fighter to keep up with the shield's increased crit profile? Shields aren't really effected by the bludgeoning line of feats, so they have no way to specialize in shield type damage other than the vanguard line. While, yes, the vanguard does lose DPS here, I think it is likely that the vanguard is overperforming as a DPS build, since it also gets tremendous other utility, such as CC, extra movement, etc.. I view vanguard in much the same way I view deepwood stalker. It is a hybrid tree, straddling the line between offense and defense. It shouldn't be out-performing the DPS tree, which for paladin is KotC.

[GroundhogDay]

The plan is for these changes to go into effect with Update 28 Patch 1.

Thx for asking us if we'd like these changes and not imposing them on us, and thx for listening to the feedback you so clearly ignored. when will u28.1 be brought live? that's the last day i'll support this game with my money

[patang01]

These devs are very wise.

Seriously, I think you guys are doing a great job and have a very good perspective on how to balance this game.

These are the same and very wise Devs that added the armor up as they saw mostly pajama builds running around prior to it. Not to impugn on anyones idea of how good or bad their perspective is, but this reversal of what was puts that whole idea in perspective.

Personally I wish Turbine would finish some of their pressing projects and then balance or even better, balance something before they release it. Particularly on pay 2 win classes. Otherwise the wisdom will be in question for sure.

[memloch]

So many of you keep complaining that the game is to easy. They are taking some steps to make the game a little bit harder (I mean a little) and you want refunds etc. This constant complaining is over the top. In all the years of playing I have never seen a change that made it impossible to play the game. So my wizard might go back to robes (will have to test), my bard will use a rapier instead of a short sword etc. We adapt and change which does add some excitement, learning how to fit all the changes in.

Out of everything I read the only thing that I believe should be rethought is removing all MRR from Armour.

[WNxDaCraw]

Really like all these changes, I actually even think you went really easy on Blood Strength.

Really hope that you are not giving in for people asking to soften the nerfs.

I pretty much hated every "balance" pass you released up until this point, and I'm really glad that you are trying to hold back a bit on the gigantic power creep that has been happening ever since Shadowfel release.

I also think that every generic selfhealing ability (coccoon, sacred ground, bladeforged recon) might require a second look. Healers are not even required in EE raids anymore, there is pretty much 0 use for clerics and stuff, and dedicated crowd controlling characters also lost their purpose exactly because every character got allowed way too much selfheal, and everyone can heal through stuff. If you want DDO to remain (or rather to go back to being) an mmo that requires teamwork and such, you'll have to force players to do teamwork, otherwise we'll just go farther and farther towards a classic hack'n'slash game. I stopped playing my wizard and cleric exactly bacause they became useless in their original form and playstyle and I won't bother to updated them just to make yet another hack'n'slasher that might use magic missiles or whatnot, but still do essentially the same thing. My suggestion at first would be to simply increase manacosts, so classes without their own classic selfhealing abilities won't need a babysitter 24/7, but without some form of cc/healer in group they'd have trouble with SP management at least without pots.

i am sorry that the people you have been playing with have left your characters in the dust, power wise. But this is a Hack'n slash game, always have been...till it dies, witch it is getting closer with these changes. If you want old fashion D&D style game play...play pnp or NWN. If you want to force everyone to play your way then go to wayfinder so you don't have to watch better builds show you up. The game is this way because when given a CHOICE players choose to be more bad ass and less lame.

and the reason they added in all the self healing was because most healers got tired holding the hands of everyone in there party....being chewed on every time some one died from there own stupidity. Raids and missions taking for ever to fill because healers were tired of dealing with pugs. I know say 50 people in game, 4 of those people like to play dedicated healers. Do the math on why we have so much self healing.

[WNxDaCraw]

So many of you keep complaining that the game is to easy. They are taking some steps to make the game a little bit harder (I mean a little) and you want refunds etc. This constant complaining is over the top. In all the years of playing I have never seen a change that made it impossible to play the game. So my wizard might go back to robes (will have to test), my bard will use a rapier instead of a short sword etc. We adapt and change which does add some excitement, learning how to fit all the changes in.

Out of everything I read the only thing that I believe should be rethought is removing all MRR from Armour.

I have NEVER EVER complained about being over powered. Not even when my guys were being showed up by other builds that were better. It made me want to try and be better...not glaze over with envy and hate them for being better. I play my way you play yours, just leave me alone.

[Severlin]

I am catching up on the thread. I apologize for not replying yesterday as I spent a lot of time chasing down the character transfer issues trying to get that back up for Lamannia. We are still working on that.

That said, there's some interesting feedback here and I wanted to give the players some insight into our current thoughts as we head towards some testing on Lamannia:

~ The changes to Improved Critical do mess up the balance for Assassins between kukri and daggers, and for Swashbucklers who can take enhancements to normalize weapon types. We are going to implement additional changes so that characters who have the Improved Critical feat will gain extra threat range for under performing weapons to maintain the weapon balance you have live using these builds.

~ Since Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars have a reduced rate of fire, fishing for Mortal Fear and similar procs will be slightly less effective. We understand this and designed with this in mind.

~ With the bug in certain Fury of the Wild enhancements, Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars can be used to get back uses of Adrenaline. With the new reduced rate of fire of Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars, utilizing this bug will be slightly less effective. We understand and have designed around this. We want to either legitimize this build by changing the wording on Fury Eternal so it officially supports ranged attacks or fix the bug, and we are looking forward to feedback on this from Lamannia.

~ It's not that we mind two weapon fighting Paladins doing decent DPS, or two weapon barbarians doing decent DPS, but these builds should not be outperforming builds based on other styles by 40% or higher.

~ We will be watching Vanguard Paladin builds to make sure they are still fun and competitive after the changes.

~ We think there has been a lot of good discussion in particular on MRR, armor, and whether these changes will put us back into a state where everyone feel compelled to take Evasion. We have read suggestions that some smaller amount of MRR might be added back to armors and we've been looking at that option. I just wanted to point out the reductions do not put us back to pre Armor Up balance. The PRR formula is more generous, and the PRR offered by armor is still higher. Heavy armor mitigates a lot more damage than before Armor Up. In addition, there are many sources of MRR, including gear, that simply did not exist before, including enhancements that only work with medium or heavy armors. Armored characters are still in much better shape than in the past, which is why we'd like to see this on Lamannia.

~ We have been reading with interest the concerns with named weapons that have increased threat ranges built in and how they interact with Improved Critical. This interaction is part of the design, as these threat ranges provided too much benefit previously. The fact that some of these weapons with lower level requirements were better than end game weapons highlights the problem fairly well.

~ Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars still provide a massive burst of damage; we really don't think these builds will lose their burst feel when these abilities provide an additional 200-300% damage increase depending on gearing.

***

We look forward to seeing player feedback from Lamannia, and here are some additional questions we have:

~ Does the newly smoothed two weapon fighting animation look good, and is the shorter animation providing too much of a DPS increase?

~ Do we want to legitimize Fury Eternal's gain of Adrenaline while using missile weapons, or do we want to fix that bug?

Sev~

[Boneshank]

So many of you keep complaining that the game is to easy. They are taking some steps to make the game a little bit harder (I mean a little) and you want refunds etc. This constant complaining is over the top. In all the years of playing I have never seen a change that made it impossible to play the game. So my wizard might go back to robes (will have to test), my bard will use a rapier instead of a short sword etc. We adapt and change which does add some excitement, learning how to fit all the changes in.

Out of everything I read the only thing that I believe should be rethought is removing all MRR from Armour.

You know pragmatism has no place among all the zealotry in this thread. Begone!
Oh, and +1.

[GregorianPL]

Greetings.

We've seen a lot of community feedback, both public and private, about our ongoing plans for balance. These are some changes we are considering to increase game balance.

As with any post that outlines power reductions (aka nerfs) I am sure there will be a lot of players looking for explanations and our thoughts and results on balance that led to these changes. I will be following up this post with more details that talk about why some of these changes are being implemented.

***

Holy Sword (Paladin)
This is now a spell that affects the paladin and buffs whatever melee weapon is being wielded in the main hand.
It no longer persists on your weapon but instead buffs the melee weapon you are holding in your main hand. (Yes, this buffs your two handed weapons.)
It no longer affects missile weapons.
It no longer can be used to buff off hand weapons or shields.
If you change weapons the spell will drop off the unequipped weapon and instead be applied to the newly equipped weapon.

Blood Strength (Barbarian Ravager)
The portion of this enhancement that heals the user when they kill an opponent now has a 1 second internal cooldown.

Critical Rage (Barbarian Ravager)
The bonus to critical threat range is now a competence bonus.

Two weapon fighting animations have been fixed so there is no longer a weird jump on the fourth animation. This has made the fourth attack slightly quicker.

Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Improved Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Greater Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.

Doubleshot values over 100% now have a chance of producing a third attack. The chance is equal to the amount the value exceeds 100. A doubleshot value of 130, for example, would always produce one extra shot and have a 30% chance to produce a third shot.

(Doublestrike will still cap at 100 for technical reasons.)

Repeating Crossbows and Doubleshot
Fixed a bug where Doubleshot was not being reduced for repeating crossbows. (Doubleshot chance is divided by 3 for repeating crossbows.)

Manyshot
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 20 seconds you add your (base attack bonus * 4) to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. This ability puts Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 2 minutes.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

Ten Thousand Stars
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 30 seconds you add your Wisdom ability score to your Ranged Power and you add your monk level * 5 to your Doubleshot. This ability puts Manyshot on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 1 minute.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

Mechanical Reloader (Rogue Mechanic)
The alacrity for non-repeating crossbows is now 30%. (Was 40%)

Pulverizer (Legendary Dreadnought)
The bonus to critical threat range for bludgeoning weapons is now an Insight bonus.

Improved Critical
These feats now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

Keen
This loot effect now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

Armor Changes
The amount of Physical Resist Rating that armor provides has been changed.
* Heavy armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 2) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Medium armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1.5) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Light Armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
Fixed a bug where players were getting Physical Resist Rating for armor with which they were not proficient.

(Note: The Physical Resist Rating and Magical Resist Rating offered by shields remain unchanged.)

As a result of dialing back armor, some fighter only feats that will boost their effectiveness with armor and add to tactical DCs will also be included.

Tactical Training
Requires Fighter Level 4
You gain +2 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 8
You gain +4 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Mastery
Requires Fighter Level 12
You gain +6 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Supremacy
Requires Fighter Level 16
You gain +8 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Notes: All tactical feats stack for a total of +20. The lower level feats are not prerequisites for the higher level feats so a higher level fighter could save a feat if he/she wanted to skip Tactical Training and forego the +2 but still have access to Tatical Supremacy.

Heavy Armor Training
Requires Fighter Level 2
You gain +3 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 6
You gain +6 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Master
Requires Fighter Level 10
You gain +9 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Champion
Requires Fighter Level 14
You gain +12 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Notes: All Heavy Armor feats stack for a total of +30. The lower level feats are not prerequisites for the higher level feats so a higher level fighter could save a feat if he/she wanted to skip Heavy Armor Training and forego the +3 and still have access to Heavy Armor Champion.


Divine Grace (Paladin)
Divine Grace now provides a maximum bonus equal to 2 + (Paladin level x 3).

Eldritch Blast and other enhancements (Warlock)
The spellpower scaling for Eldritch Blast and several enhancements has been reduced.

Spellpower scaling of Warlock Abilities


Ability
Old
New


Eldritch Blast
150%
130%


Eldritch Blast Cone
130%
130%


Eldritch Blast Chain
110%
95%


Eldritch Blast Aura
150%
130%


Stricken (Souleater)
150%
125%


Consume (Souleater)
150%
125%


Eldritch Burst (Enlightened Spirit)
120%
100%


Spirit Blast (Enlightened Spirit)
120%
100%



I will be following up this post with some details on our thoughts on balance and design.

Sev~
i can understand many nerfs, but epic sos was already nerfed a lot and now u want to decrease crit range for it ? really guys are u crazy there ? also another nerf for monk poor melee power ?... plus ranged monks got another improvement... i dont think you go right way with the changes you are going to make... another thing is that for many classes like for example for barbarian it is really really hard to keep up any other saves than fortitude... and we cant splash monk/paladin ! i cant call that what you are doing a reballance... its making even worse balance as it was

[Cruxader]

Greetings.

We've seen a lot of community feedback, both public and private, about our ongoing plans for balance. These are some changes we are considering to increase game balance.

As with any post that outlines power reductions (aka nerfs) I am sure there will be a lot of players looking for explanations and our thoughts and results on balance that led to these changes. I will be following up this post with more details that talk about why some of these changes are being implemented.

***

I will be following up this post with some details on our thoughts on balance and design.

Sev~

There was obviously a good deal of thought put into this.
A couple things that dont make sense-
1. TWF, at the cost of a shield, many glancing blow effects, and lots of extra necessary farming for specialized crafted weapons, should have the most DPS. It is also a good potential driver for filling raids (especially epic GS...)
if we want to balance it then disallow cleave/greater cleave with TWF rather than removing scaling Melle power while all the othe modes have that.

2. No reason to force everyone out of Heavy armor again and force back the clock to the boring PJ wearing game this once was. Diversity is good, (Evasionand improved evasion are also very vvery good...), and if people want to pay the costs of wearing heavy armor for better protection (arcane casting costs, feats et cetera) It actually does make sense that Heavy Armor protects better than light armor or robes again AOEs with more MRR.

Many of the rest of your suggestions may hurt my builds, but they make a good deal of sense, so if they are good for the game, ok.
I would say the above 2exceptions will hurt the game and should be altered.

[dunklezhan]

~ Since Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars have a reduced rate of fire, fishing for Mortal Fear and similar procs will be slightly less effective. We understand this and designed with this in mind.


Thank you for that acknowledgement and that you recognised it early enough to design for it. Obviously we'll see, but fingers crossed :)

[Bennum]

[QUOTE=FranOhmsford;5704689]FINALLY!

Epic Elites are NOT easy for a 1st, 2nd, 3rd or even 4th Life character that still has Destinies to fill!

Epic elite is easy for 10 bard + any combination. Epic elite is easy for anyone who doesn't intentionally gimp their toon.
Um no, keep dreaming with your past lives and epic past lives and uber gear. The game is NOT as easy for everyone as it is for you. Unintelligible posts like this show perfectly that the perspectives of certain vocal elite can be dangerous to those who would like to simply play the game and feel competent.

FINALLY!

Epic Elites are NOT easy for a 1st, 2nd, 3rd or even 4th Life character that still has Destinies to fill!

The vast majority of power in Epics is in the Destinies!

Lvl 28 Characters are currently 4 levels below the Highest Level EEs and in Full Destiny with Multiple Past Lives and Epic TRs those Players are making those quests look like nothing!
BUT
Think of the guy who gets to Level 28 on his 1st or 2nd Life with only 3 destinies maxed and having to start a 4th {which may be one that has no synergy with his Build}, No E-TRs and at most one Past Life {which could have zero effect other than a couple extra build points depending on Build}.


The Problem is that the Devs have created an impasse where for some unknown reason they're building Lvl 28-30 Quests that can be completed by Lvl 20 Characters!
The reason for this is that fully maxed out with Destinies and E-TRs Lvl 20 Characters are far stronger than a 1st Life 28! And Lvl 21-25 Epics are a breeze for them!

Thank you, this is close to how I and I'm sure many others feel when they see changes like this. Some of us were using these buffs just to get to good while others were breaking the game.

[UurlockYgmeov]

~ Do we want to legitimize Fury Eternal's gain of Adrenaline while using missile weapons, or do we want to fix that bug?

Sev~

legitimize straight out - or make it a multi-selector (either melee or ranged)

[Requiro]

(...)

~ With the bug in certain Fury of the Wild enhancements, (...)

Just :cool: :rolleyes: :D




~ We have been reading with interest the concerns with named weapons that have increased threat ranges built in and how they interact with Improved Critical. This interaction is part of the design (...)

So it's the end of the Carnifex and Silver Longbow... Sad...




~ Do we want to legitimize Fury Eternal's gain of Adrenaline while using missile weapons, or do we want to fix that bug?

Sev~

I guess that it's better to legitimize by adding Multiselector (ranged or melee). It leave more diversity in game, especially with new improvement, where DC will be even greater for Ranged Toons.

But keep in mind improvements (for ranged toons) to Shiradi Destiny, for the same reason: diversity in game.

I guess Lamannia will be up tonight (with new DDO Store)?

[Maelphistez]

Assuming you're planning on addressing the critical ranges of special weapons (e.g., Oathblade, SoS, Deathnips, and lots of staves and daggers), I don't have any major issue with these changes. However in all the talk of pallies, barbs, and fighters, we really need to consider clerics and FVS. For this I suggest a QUICK fix of the following, since we know their pass is probably still a long ways off.
To the warpriest line, add 5 MRR to each core. That will keep these predominantly heavy armor users that nobody complains about being overpowered largely at the status quo in terms of durability against magical assault.

I agree with the sentiment and am going to take the chance to bring back up my post (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/466433-The-Balance-Change-post?p=5704796&viewfull=1#post5704796). Specifically, I mean this bit:

Armor PRR/MRR changes:
I get that when you have rogues and mages running around in Heavy Armor, perhaps it has been powered up a bit far. I think toning the whole thing down is actually a good idea. I however hate that you are making Fighters spend 4 feats to get back *most* of what has been taken away from them. I know Fighters have a lot of feats, but ouch. Worse than that though, Paladins and Clerics totally get the shaft in this proposal. I think the whole idea while based on a good principle is so poorly executed as to be downright disastrous to the game.

My suggested solution is this: For classes that are currently granted the Heavy Armor feat (Fighter, Paladin, and Cleric) give them an auto-grant like Wilderness or Arcane Lore that at each class level adds +2 PRR and MRR when in Heavy Armor. For classes that are currently granted the Medium Armor feat (Artificer, Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Favored Soul, Fighter, and Paladin) give them an auto-grant that adds +1 PRR and MRR when in Medium Armor. This rewards those classes for staying pure, offers benefits for splashing, and addresses your issue about classes "intended" to wear Heavy Armor getting no more benefit than a Wizard slapping on a suit of plate and hitting Tensers.

[mikarddo]

~ Since Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars have a reduced rate of fire, fishing for Mortal Fear and similar procs will be slightly less effective. We understand this and designed with this in mind.

~ With the bug in certain Fury of the Wild enhancements, Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars can be used to get back uses of Adrenaline. With the new reduced rate of fire of Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars, utilizing this bug will be slightly less effective. We understand and have designed around this. We want to either legitimize this build by changing the wording on Fury Eternal so it officially supports ranged attacks or fix the bug, and we are looking forward to feedback on this from Lamannia.

~ Do we want to legitimize Fury Eternal's gain of Adrenaline while using missile weapons, or do we want to fix that bug?

Sev~

It was fun to see you post with your non-Dev account first :)

Anyway, I am really scared that you even begin to consider making Fury not work with ranged after such a long time. If you make ranged not gain Adrenalines you just completely ruined an entire style of play. Mind, a style of play thats not even close to being top dog.

I find your arguments that negatively adjusting the number of Mortal Fear procs and the number of Adrenalines gained surprising as well but I will have to accept that design decision as it may leave the playstyle viable albeit weaker and less fun due to fewer Adrenalines.

As far as I am concerned you very obviously need to change the wording so its clearly shown that ranged can gain Adrenalines.

[Hakushi]

~ We have been reading with interest the concerns with named weapons that have increased threat ranges built in and how they interact with Improved Critical. This interaction is part of the design, as these threat ranges provided too much benefit previously. The fact that some of these weapons with lower level requirements were better than end game weapons highlights the problem fairly well.

Sev~

I can see what you mean here, maybe some of these weapons should have been designed differently, like as an example, some of these weapons could have had an enhancement callerd: Enhanced Criticals +1 or +2 that wouldn't have been part of the natural crit range of the weapon. Many players built their characters around some particular weapons.

[unbongwah]

i can understand many nerfs, but epic sos was already nerfed a lot and now u want to decrease crit range for it ?
Of all the proposed nerfs, this one bothers me the least, because eSOS will still be the best ML:20 2H weapon for most builds.

LD Ravager barb

eSOS: 18-20/x3 -> 16-20/x3 (IC:Slash) -> 14-20/x3 (Crit Rage) -> 14-18/x3 19-20/x6 (Death Frenzy+Overwhelming Crit+Devastating Crit) = 39 effective hits
maul: 20/x3 -> 19-20/x3 (IC:Blunt) -> 18-20/x3 (Pulverizer) -> 16-20/x3 (Crit Rage) -> 16-18/x3 19-20/x6 (DF+OC+DC) = 35 effective hits
greataxe: 20/x3 -> 19-20/x3 (IC:Slash) -> 17-20/x3 (Crit Rage) -> 17-18/x3 19-20/x7 (DF+OC+DC+Headman's Chop) = 35 effective hits
falchion: 18-20/x2 -> 15-20/x2 (IC:S) -> 13-20/x2 (Crit Rage) -> 13-18/x2 19-20/x5 (DF+OC+DC) = 33 effective hits


LD KotC paladin

eSOS: 18-20/x3 -> 17-20/x4 (Holy Sword) -> 15-20/x4 (IC:Slash) -> 15-18/x4 19-20/x7 (DF+OC+DC) = 43 effective hits
maul: 20/x3 -> 19-20/x4 (HS) -> 18-20/x4 (IC:Blunt) -> 17-20/x4 (Pulverizer) -> 17-18/x4 19-20/x7 (DF+OC+DC) = 37 effective hits
greataxe: 20/x3 -> 19-20/x4 (HS) -> 18-20/x4 (IC:Slash) -> 18/x4 19-20/x8 (DF+OC+DC+HC) = 36 effective hits
falchion: 18-20/x2 -> 17-20/x3 (HS) -> 14-20/x3 (IC:S) -> 14-18/x3 19-20/x6 (DF+OC+DC) = 39 effective hits


Yes, eSOS is losing some DPS, but so are most weapon types; and it still outperforms other weapons by at least 10%.

[Krelar]

Of all the proposed nerfs, this one bothers me the least, because eSOS will still be the best ML:20 2H weapon for most builds.


Yes, eSOS is losing some DPS, but so are most weapon types; and it still outperforms other weapons by at least 10%.

How does it compare to epic xuum (http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Xuum) now? (My suspicion is that a lot of people are going to be "enjoying" another really long item grind.)

[Mirta]

~ It's not that we mind two weapon fighting Paladins doing decent DPS, or two weapon barbarians doing decent DPS, but these builds should not be outperforming builds based on other styles by 40% or higher.

Then increase the damage of other classes by 40% to bring them in line with regular DPS. Or make those classes have more useful abilities. Fighters, for example: Add a tree with a tier 5 skill that allows tactical abilities to work on red mobs 10/20/30% and on purple mobs 5/10/15% of the time and add AOE to them. Add enhancements that increase intimidate range by 100/200/300%, etc.

I would love to see healers get new enhancement trees that actually benefit a party so I can play a healer again. Give my cleric an aura that increases group MRR and PRR. Give me SLAs for mass heals and buffs! Healing procs, bonuses to group DPS/abilities/skills/etc that proc on heals.

Please stop nerfing my fun and high DPS classes to try to get me to play severely underpowered boring classes. Make the other classes better!

[Artagon]

I however hate that you are making Fighters spend 4 feats to get back *most* of what has been taken away from them. I know Fighters have a lot of feats, but ouch. Worse than that though, Paladins and Clerics totally get the shaft in this proposal. I think the whole idea while based on a good principle is so poorly executed as to be downright disastrous to the game.
Have you done the calculations?

BAB 24 base calculations on the PRR changes:

Heavy Armor
Live: 30 + 6 + 24 = 60 PRR
Proposed: 24 x 2 = 48 PRR

Medium Armor
Live: 20 + 4 + 16 = 40 PRR
Proposed: 24 x 1.5 = 36 PRR

Light Armor
Live: 10 + 2 + 12 = 24 PRR
Proposed: 24 x 1 = 24 PRR

The main thing is MRR, which is going to drop 30 points on fully geared Heavy armor users. It isn't getting removed entirely from builds and shields will still double MRR against dmg that has a reflex save. What kind of MRR do you run around with on your Pally? If I have.. say.. 90 MRR (which might be a bit low for average tanky players) then that 30 point MRR hit will mean 10% more damage from spells. Probably not as scary as it initially might seem.

For reference on how MRR is calculated on live: http://ddowiki.com/page/Magical_Resistance_Rating

Let me ask you this, how does the dev team make fighters as tough as a paladin (who have better saves AND self-healing) while still being unique, all while not making the game easier than it already is?

[losian2]

about the 6/6/8 build!



I don't agree!, 6 monk will give 30%DS vs chance for up to 4 arrows current ! 12 monk will give 60% DS and monk gives no DS in its enhancments so no way to wrap 100% DS on a 6/6/8.

I am ok with the changes to MS they seem fine.... 10k however will be utterly useless on anything other than a pure monk (with minor splash) and pure monk does not further boost ranged in its trees! so forced to go elf/H-elf to at least get access to AA. The simple fact of the matter is that a pure monk might be a viable archer, but then you will need to multi to get some ranged stuff but multying will relegate 10k into uselessness.

I posted before to maybe change 10K* DS to 40%+monk*3, where 20monk =100%, 12monk=76%, 6monk=58%

So please do not tell me that my current Dwarf/6rgr/6mnk/ftr8 will be viable ranged after this pass because it will not be ! (I don't really care that I will have to TR or reroll or even change some class levels in my build, but the current set-up I have will no longer be viable)

I really dunno why people are so upset that a SHURIKEN is going to be heavily tied to a MONK for functionality and goodness.. It still works with other mixes, but I dunno why someone would expect a level 6 monk to be comparably capable with something as specific as a shuriken as a 20 monk.. 20 monk should be WAY WAY better.. That's THE POINT of being a 20 monk.... People are so spoiled with how broken the multiclassing is and has always been in 3.0/3.5 style design.

The game is "too easy" or it isn't, stop complaining when things that are totally out of whack are being fixed and adjusted. :(

[CThruTheEgo]

I really need to explain this?

Equip each weapon (preferably on toons spec'd to optimize them, so each has maximum RoF relative to the weapon).
Use a buff or something as a timer. Hold down attack button & count number of shots in one minute.
I know, counting is hard. But you should then have your baseline SPM to apply the doubleshot to.
Unless you wouldn't believe that either, without dev confirmation. In which case, keep holding your hand up, your teacher will eventually take notice.

Whoa! Slow down there cowboy. Please don't get snarky because I asked for actual evidence rather than speculation. I acknowledged that your point might be valid, but that your example was not sufficient to prove it. So there's no reason to go insulting me for asking for further evidence to prove your point. The only ranged build I have ever made is the artificer in my sig, so I am not familiar with the rates of fire of different ranged weapons nor am I in a position to be able to test them, hence my acknowledgement that I honestly did not know. I'm well aware of how to test their rates of fire, but am unable to do so.


EDIT:
Just counted shots fired for one minute, on 3 (near)optimized toons for longbow (pinion), light repeater (needle), and gxbow (temple).
Repeated each test 3 times, with same results. No haste boosts or anything were used, just a regular standing RoF.
Repeater = 153spm.
Gxbow = 98spm.
Longbow = 79spm.
Now apply the doubleshot to those numbers.

Thanks for testing this. If you don't mind me asking, what were the builds you used to get these results? I'm not asking for full build details, just very general basics (e.g. arcane archer, mechanic, standard relevant ranged feats such as rapid reload or rapid shot, any alacrity or doubleshot from enhancements or gear, etc.). Please don't take offense that I'm asking for clarification. I just like to know the validity of data, that's all.

[lifestaker]

*snip*
My suggested solution is this: For classes that are currently granted the Heavy Armor feat (Fighter, Paladin, and Cleric) give them an auto-grant like Wilderness or Arcane Lore that at each class level adds +2 PRR and MRR when in Heavy Armor. For classes that are currently granted the Medium Armor feat (Artificer, Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Favored Soul, Fighter, and Paladin) give them an auto-grant that adds +1 PRR and MRR when in Medium Armor. This rewards those classes for staying pure, offers benefits for splashing, and addresses your issue about classes "intended" to wear Heavy Armor getting no more benefit than a Wizard slapping on a suit of plate and hitting Tensers.

With said suggestion how would you in turn add the perks to the wizard, bard, or warlock that are to put on med armor by gaining the proficiency. These classes would be behind to the point that it would almost not be worth 'armoring up.' Warchanters and warlocks would have no place in putting on heavier then light armor, when they have enhancements that grant them no spell failure for medium armor.

[losian2]

If, after these adjustments, there is still a widespread concern about Warlock power, we will address it. As we've repeatedly stated these kind of changes are an ongoing process, not a one-and-done.



Yes, trying to find a happy balance between heavily invested players with many past lives and top gear and newer players is always a challenge. We have been hearing from many of these heavily-invested players that they no longer feel the game is offering them enough of a challenge, at least in part due to the increased power we've provided through class updates and other changes in the past year or so. We also intend to provide these players with increased challenge through Reaper difficulty in the not-coming-soon future, but feel these changes are necessary to provide a challenging but fun experience to as wide a section of the player base as possible.

We want to hear from as many people as we can; if there is a large unrepresented group of players who feel the game is currently too difficult, we would be interested in hearing from them.

I did want to mention to the participants in the thread that I've had to delete a couple of dozen posts to try to keep the discussion on-topic. Conversations about who is exploiting, and what an exploit is, is not on-topic, nor are cooking tips. :)

I guess my biggest concern is the squeaky wheel..

New players, first and second lifers, probably aren't on the forums here and are not nearly as represented as those who have tons of PLs/EPLs and are complaining so much about the game being 'too easy' while milking their 8/6/6 and holy sword and other such ridiculously specific and overpowered builds.. When you arguably abuse a system that has never been terribly well balanced (3.0/3.5 multiclassing) it's never going to be remotely balanced with someone who doesn't.. and the game is just gonna be too hard for one group or too easy for the other.

Would it be feasible to have some kind of announcement or encouragement to bring newer players to the forums? I think it's safe to say the folks who will be testing on lamannia and who post here most are by no means the newest of players.

[Nestroy]

If, after these adjustments, there is still a widespread concern about Warlock power, we will address it. As we've repeatedly stated these kind of changes are an ongoing process, not a one-and-done.

Sorry to say so, but Cordo, it seems you guys at Turbine do not understand your own Warlock class you generated. Warlock power - it´s not the DPS that is the main source of the WL power. There are two other main sources, DPS comes third, if at all:

It´s on one side the fact that DPS does not come at a big time cost that makes WL so powerful. You basically get upgrades to your DPS power handed with gaining levels, well until lv. 20, that is. Doing the DPS does not cost any SP. It does not need to gear up with the best eSOS or anything you need to grind out or farm. Well, the maximum is reached at level 20. Every level gained in epic sets the Warlock back a little on the DPS scale. On lv. 28 the Warlock is barely on par with lesser geared melees and archers. He is still a step up from Wizards and Sorcs, but this is due to the fact that these two classes are in the Turbine doghouse for at least two years now and WL was designed to sell well.

The second source of WL power derives from the fact that this class gets superior survivability even in high end EE content served on the plater - with Enlightened Spirit tier 5 enhancement "Shining Through". Combine this with Cocoon and you get the best self-suficient class in game except for Paladin.

Warlock maxes out at lv. 20. On lv. 22 Warlock might choose a feat that adds a little boost to DPS. But afterwards the DPS stands still. Some minor modifications to Spellpower or Spell Crit may adjust this, but when most melee and archery builds tend to gain most power (lv. 20 vs. lv. 28 equipment, epic feats, EDs), the WL evens out. The best I could manage was doubling the damage output on my WL from lv. 20 to lv. 28. This is not bad damage, not bad at all. Especially if you think where this starts from. I am by no way unhappy with epic Warlocks. But while my maxed out toons tended to see 4 times the damage output on lv. 28 compared to lv. 20 (and off ED), or even more, the Warlock just does not add that much in epic levels.

Is the WL OP in lv. 20? Clearly yes. Especially due to superior self suficiency and due to max DPS output against quest difficulty.
Is the WL still OP in lv. 28? No. There are builds that have similar survivability at more damage output.

What does your proposed nerfs do now? Let´s see. They will scale back finely at heroic levels where the WL clearly is OP. Fine with that. Now, on end game and especially high end EE, the WL will start to fall well behind the suprior builds. So basically it´s a fine class to play until about lv. 24, then WL will get shunned. So fine for gaining heroic PLs and that´s it. Same as Arty or Wiz, Sorc.

Are there alternatives that nerf the WL where the class needs a nerf? To my mind, yes. Make the blasts use SP. Make the aura use SP constantly. On low levels this is a hindrance. On higher levels where there is enough SP for the WL this is a non-factor. Second, tune down Shining Through. CON x 12 is too much, the cooldown is too fast. Make the cooldown one minute and the benefit CON x 6 or something similar. Problem of OPedness solved.

And make the WL bleed for using armor that do not belong to the class. Arcane Spell Failure should work for all blasts.

Bottom Line: The tune down for DPS output looks very much like the easy way to balance an OP class. But in the long run the class gets hurt massively by this. There are better ways of making WL balanced. Do the better way!

[Mirta]

Of all the proposed nerfs, this one bothers me the least, because eSOS will still be the best ML:20 2H weapon for most builds.

LD Ravager barb

eSOS: 18-20/x3 -> 16-20/x3 (IC:Slash) -> 14-20/x3 (Crit Rage) -> 14-18/x3 19-20/x6 (Death Frenzy+Overwhelming Crit+Devastating Crit) = 39 effective hits
maul: 20/x3 -> 19-20/x3 (IC:Blunt) -> 18-20/x3 (Pulverizer) -> 16-20/x3 (Crit Rage) -> 16-18/x3 19-20/x6 (DF+OC+DC) = 35 effective hits
greataxe: 20/x3 -> 19-20/x3 (IC:Slash) -> 17-20/x3 (Crit Rage) -> 17-18/x3 19-20/x7 (DF+OC+DC+Headman's Chop) = 35 effective hits
falchion: 18-20/x2 -> 15-20/x2 (IC:S) -> 13-20/x2 (Crit Rage) -> 13-18/x2 19-20/x5 (DF+OC+DC) = 33 effective hits


LD KotC paladin

eSOS: 18-20/x3 -> 17-20/x4 (Holy Sword) -> 15-20/x4 (IC:Slash) -> 15-18/x4 19-20/x7 (DF+OC+DC) = 43 effective hits
maul: 20/x3 -> 19-20/x4 (HS) -> 18-20/x4 (IC:Blunt) -> 17-20/x4 (Pulverizer) -> 17-18/x4 19-20/x7 (DF+OC+DC) = 37 effective hits
greataxe: 20/x3 -> 19-20/x4 (HS) -> 18-20/x4 (IC:Slash) -> 18/x4 19-20/x8 (DF+OC+DC+HC) = 36 effective hits
falchion: 18-20/x2 -> 17-20/x3 (HS) -> 14-20/x3 (IC:S) -> 14-18/x3 19-20/x6 (DF+OC+DC) = 39 effective hits


Yes, eSOS is losing some DPS, but so are most weapon types; and it still outperforms other weapons by at least 10%.

Gotta love the SOS! Don't go changing.

Off-topic: SOS is an iconic weapon in this game. It was the original must-have for melees and somehow is still relevant in epic levels today. I think these changes aren't too bad for it considering how old it is, but I'd love to see another tier of crafting for this thing to keep the legend alive. ML28, of course.

[Apollos713]

~ Do we want to legitimize Fury Eternal's gain of Adrenaline while using missile weapons, or do we want to fix that bug?

Sev~

Vote to legitimize. I'm all for archers being able to focus on sustained or burst damage. More playstyles, more diversity of builds, more fun.

[GregorianPL]

Of all the proposed nerfs, this one bothers me the least, because eSOS will still be the best ML:20 2H weapon for most builds.

LD Ravager barb

eSOS: 18-20/x3 -> 16-20/x3 (IC:Slash) -> 14-20/x3 (Crit Rage) -> 14-18/x3 19-20/x6 (Death Frenzy+Overwhelming Crit+Devastating Crit) = 39 effective hits
maul: 20/x3 -> 19-20/x3 (IC:Blunt) -> 18-20/x3 (Pulverizer) -> 16-20/x3 (Crit Rage) -> 16-18/x3 19-20/x6 (DF+OC+DC) = 35 effective hits
greataxe: 20/x3 -> 19-20/x3 (IC:Slash) -> 17-20/x3 (Crit Rage) -> 17-18/x3 19-20/x7 (DF+OC+DC+Headman's Chop) = 35 effective hits
falchion: 18-20/x2 -> 15-20/x2 (IC:S) -> 13-20/x2 (Crit Rage) -> 13-18/x2 19-20/x5 (DF+OC+DC) = 33 effective hits


LD KotC paladin

eSOS: 18-20/x3 -> 17-20/x4 (Holy Sword) -> 15-20/x4 (IC:Slash) -> 15-18/x4 19-20/x7 (DF+OC+DC) = 43 effective hits
maul: 20/x3 -> 19-20/x4 (HS) -> 18-20/x4 (IC:Blunt) -> 17-20/x4 (Pulverizer) -> 17-18/x4 19-20/x7 (DF+OC+DC) = 37 effective hits
greataxe: 20/x3 -> 19-20/x4 (HS) -> 18-20/x4 (IC:Slash) -> 18/x4 19-20/x8 (DF+OC+DC+HC) = 36 effective hits
falchion: 18-20/x2 -> 17-20/x3 (HS) -> 14-20/x3 (IC:S) -> 14-18/x3 19-20/x6 (DF+OC+DC) = 39 effective hits


Yes, eSOS is losing some DPS, but so are most weapon types; and it still outperforms other weapons by at least 10%.
sorry dude, you compare uber legendary weapon with is harder to farm than last tier of thunderforged to any "rubbish weapon" there are many greater weapons that doesnt feel such nerf.
I guess noone already remember when esos was crit x4 weapon and deadly was actually making it 10d6+10 instead of 3,5d6+10... it have just 1 red slot and 1 colorless slot thunderforged weapons are still way better than esos and thunder greatsword dont feel any nerf.

[Clemeit]

Warlocks:

1. Running a Warlock through Heroic Elites is too easy. I think they should be receiving a larger decrease in damage than the one proposed. 20% or so won't do too much when they can already 1 or 2 shot every mob.
2. Running a Warlock through Epic Elites is pretty balanced. I think that rather then gaining so much raw damage as soon as you have enough points to spend on burst/blast, make these two abilities scale with level a little bit better. A linear curve with decreasing gain near the end, perhaps? Spell power is supposed to do this, but it's not working perfectly.
3. Everything except for the Cone shape was penalized. That's surprising, as many people say that Cone shape is the most powerful, currently, especially due to the the Eldritch Wave casting animation fix.


Paladins:

1. I agree with some of the changes. Two Weapon Fighting is outpacing other play styles. It's obvious: just look up some videos on YouTube.
2. Holy Sword:
A: Yet another decline in its power. Not working with the shield is really a huge hit on Vanguard paladins, and now that Fighters are gaining new feats, and there is an upcoming fighter pass, I think that there will be much fewer Vanguard paladins, and many more Vanguard fighters. This is... meh.
B: I think it should still work with Shields. Maybe reduce the effectiveness it has on shields, because right now, it is pretty powerful, but taking it off of shields completely is a huge hit on Vanguards. I thought that they were supposed to be the best with shields. Why take power away from that?


Armor:

1. MRR should stay will armor - at least in part. The whole point of adding MRR to armor was to encourage people to play characters that weren't evasion-bases. Now everyone is wearing heavy armor - which is a problem - but some of those EE casters hit very hard, and many people rely on their armor's MRR to survive. Some people might return to evasion-style characters if they weren't so damned squishy in EEs... Return of the Cetus build, anyone?

Fighters:

1. Nice to see some work being done on them. I have a million chances to select feats, and only a few that are worth selecting. The new feats will finally give me something to do with the 6 toughness feats I currently have!
2. Fighter pass soon? Some hinting at it, but I have yet to see something as proof. I sure hope so!

[Saekee]

I am catching up on the thread. I apologize for not replying yesterday as I spent a lot of time chasing down the character transfer issues trying to get that back up for Lamannia. We are still working on that.

That said, there's some interesting feedback here and I wanted to give the players some insight into our current thoughts as we head towards some testing on Lamannia:

~ The changes to Improved Critical do mess up the balance for Assassins between kukri and daggers, and for Swashbucklers who can take enhancements to normalize weapon types. We are going to implement additional changes so that characters who have the Improved Critical feat will gain extra threat range for under performing weapons to maintain the weapon balance you have live using these builds.

~ Since Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars have a reduced rate of fire, fishing for Mortal Fear and similar procs will be slightly less effective. We understand this and designed with this in mind.

~ With the bug in certain Fury of the Wild enhancements, Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars can be used to get back uses of Adrenaline. With the new reduced rate of fire of Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars, utilizing this bug will be slightly less effective. We understand and have designed around this. We want to either legitimize this build by changing the wording on Fury Eternal so it officially supports ranged attacks or fix the bug, and we are looking forward to feedback on this from Lamannia.

~ It's not that we mind two weapon fighting Paladins doing decent DPS, or two weapon barbarians doing decent DPS, but these builds should not be outperforming builds based on other styles by 40% or higher.

~ We will be watching Vanguard Paladin builds to make sure they are still fun and competitive after the changes.

~ We think there has been a lot of good discussion in particular on MRR, armor, and whether these changes will put us back into a state where everyone feel compelled to take Evasion. We have read suggestions that some smaller amount of MRR might be added back to armors and we've been looking at that option. I just wanted to point out the reductions do not put us back to pre Armor Up balance. The PRR formula is more generous, and the PRR offered by armor is still higher. Heavy armor mitigates a lot more damage than before Armor Up. In addition, there are many sources of MRR, including gear, that simply did not exist before, including enhancements that only work with medium or heavy armors. Armored characters are still in much better shape than in the past, which is why we'd like to see this on Lamannia.

~ We have been reading with interest the concerns with named weapons that have increased threat ranges built in and how they interact with Improved Critical. This interaction is part of the design, as these threat ranges provided too much benefit previously. The fact that some of these weapons with lower level requirements were better than end game weapons highlights the problem fairly well.

~ Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars still provide a massive burst of damage; we really don't think these builds will lose their burst feel when these abilities provide an additional 200-300% damage increase depending on gearing.

***

We look forward to seeing player feedback from Lamannia, and here are some additional questions we have:

~ Does the newly smoothed two weapon fighting animation look good, and is the shorter animation providing too much of a DPS increase?

~ Do we want to legitimize Fury Eternal's gain of Adrenaline while using missile weapons, or do we want to fix that bug?

Sev~

Thx for implementing a correction re daggers and knife spec!

If anyone complains that the new TWF animation is too strong than squelch me in advance of my nasty pms (obviously kidding.)

[Severlin]

Our thoughts on Holy Sword:

Holy Sword was very strong when it first appeared. Over time, however, it's relative power has been blunted by additional class passes that offer alternate ways to gain those competence based critical bonuses. As such we've introduced alternate options to the ever present 14 Paladin version of builds. As we continue our class passes we feel that Holy Sword will remain a strong option, but not the only option.

This is why Holy Sword didn't see as much of a change as people might have been expecting. We really hit two weapon fighting builds as they were putting out a lot of DPS for the mitigation provided by Paladin.

Our thought behind removing a missile weapon version was feedback that many of the best missile weapon options were actually better in the 14 Paladin variant. This concerned us, and we addressed it early.

Upon reading feedback from players and re-examining our builds, we are making Holy Sword once again affect missile weapons. No, we don't want 14 Paladin missile weapon builds to be the best missile option. The removal of missile weapons from Holy Sword, however, has more ramifications that most of the other changes in this balance pass as it negates a design goal for a specific kind of build. The other changes have statistical changes, but the design intent for other builds is still intact and the builds play the same. This particular aspect of Holy Sword we feel goes beyond statistical change; removing the missile option actually messes up a design intent for a specific build.

(It also bugs us that the game has long bow as an option for the Paladin's special weapon and then we take away a strong DPS boost for Paladins that go that way.)

If 14 Paladin builds are still vastly more desirable than other ranged builds even though other builds have ways to pursue similar bonuses then we will find a way to address that.

Sev~

[Qhualor]

~ With the bug in certain Fury of the Wild enhancements, Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars can be used to get back uses of Adrenaline. With the new reduced rate of fire of Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars, utilizing this bug will be slightly less effective. We understand and have designed around this. We want to either legitimize this build by changing the wording on Fury Eternal so it officially supports ranged attacks or fix the bug, and we are looking forward to feedback on this from Lamannia.

~ Do we want to legitimize Fury Eternal's gain of Adrenaline while using missile weapons, or do we want to fix that bug?

Sev~

A bug is a bug is a bug. Please fix bugs. Keeping bugs and than calling it WAI will only haunt you later down the road in the next questionable exploit thread. I could easily use your suggestion of this particular bug and justify keeping broken wolf builds with changing descriptions and minor mechanic changes.

[Psiandron]

Okay, there's a lot in this I need to consider. I can't say this makes me feel comfortable about the future of my melee characters. That said, I doubt that I'll post again or even read any of this again because posting is a waste of time because there are a few people who will post over and over and what I say will surely be lost.




Our current measure of melee effectiveness is Swashbuckler.
Sev~

Do you really think that swashbuckling bards are representative of melee characters? They're pretty much top dog.

[unbongwah]

How does it compare to epic xuum (http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Xuum) now?
Interesting question: in terms of crit specs, Xuum will have +1 crit range since it gets +3 from Imp Crit vs +2 to eSOS; plus Flaming Burst & Incineration while eSOS has no effects. OTOH, eSOS has higher base dmg (7 vs 4.5) and +0.5[W], which puts it at 17.5 vs 9. Someone better at crunching DPS numbers than me will have to tell you how high of a dmg mod you need before the extra crit dmg for Xuum makes up for that difference in base dmg. :o

Off-topic: SOS is an iconic weapon in this game. It was the original must-have for melees and somehow is still relevant in epic levels today. I think these changes aren't too bad for it considering how old it is, but I'd love to see another tier of crafting for this thing to keep the legend alive. ML28, of course.
eSOS is lucky, insofar as it's one of the few pre-MotU epic items which is still worth farming for. The old epic stuff is long overdue for an upgrade to make them relevant again. But that's a topic for another thread...

[PsychoBlonde]

Ranged Characters:

1. I can't see anyone doing a ranged character after the update. At all.
2. Instead of completely wrecking ranged combat, why not instead just penalize classes that aren't primarily ranger. Something like this would completely fix ranged combat: All characters that aren't at least 90% Ranger class will incur a 50% ranged damage penalty. This would allow for an 18/2 split, while completely scrapping the now totally overpowered ranged variants.


Heh, you clearly have zero familiarity with playing any kind of ranged character at all. I've played quite a few, and I think the ranged changes are a good idea. Ranger isn't and shouldn't be the only option for any type of ranged and nobody should get a PENALTY to a style.

Personally I'm fine with making ranged Fury "legit".

Question--I know sneak attack on melee attacks scales with melee power. On ranged attacks does it scale with ranged power? Any thoughts about making sneak attack scale with 150% ranged power or similar? It'd make sense to me because there's a pretty sharp limitation on range unless you go for the DWS capstone. Maybe not necessary, but it'd make sneak-focused ranged builds scale better against burst-focused.

It's a pity that Shiradi is still so awful for ranged builds.

[Henky]

~ We will be watching Vanguard Paladin builds to make sure they are still fun and competitive after the changes.
Fix Ultimatum pls. It's not logic that just and update leave a raid tower shield in the dust against a non-raid Shield. Add the +W missing to the shield.

Also make the spell holy sword have two options, as teleport or fire shield.

1. Holy Sword for weapon in main hand, as you want.
2. Holy Shield for shield on off hand, modifiy it if needed and make sure it don't work with off-hands weapons.

[Severlin]

On two weapon fighting:

There has been a lot of two weapon fighting talk, specifically about the changes to the feats and to Holy Sword and I wanted to talk about our design intent.

First, we smoothed out the Two Weapon Fighting animation and we saw a small bump in DPS. Since those builds are strong we were concerned that it would just exaggerate the difference in styles. We needed to compensate ~6% due to the change.

That said, our live builds using two weapon fighting are testing really high. I'll be honest, it concerns us that there seems to be a large disconnect on what we are seeing in testing and the players perception on two weapon fighting. We are seeing two weapon fighting build posting numbers that are 30-40% higher than builds that use two handed weapons and single weapon fighting. These builds can still generate a lot of AoE through cleaves and cleave replacements. Although the AoE of two weapon fight would be behind two handed fighting, it isn't far enough behind to warrant such a large damage differential.

As an example, we don't want to remove a two weapon fighting option for Paladin, but we also don't think it should be doing 30-40% more damage than other styles either.

I wanted to bring this up because as we read the thread I don't think we've done a good enough job communicating why we are concerned about two weapon fighting builds. As we get ready for Lamannia we will be watching player feedback on their experiences with these changes and hopefully some DPS testing to see if the players are seeing more balance or if we need to look more closely into two weapon fighting.

Sev~

[legendkilleroll]

Please dont cave in to the complaints.

Saw it too much in the class passes and they ended up OP, the game needs nerfs.

[unbongwah]

I'll be honest, it concerns us that there seems to be a large disconnect on what we are seeing in testing and the players perception on two weapon fighting.
Most of the complaints boil down to: due to technical issues like lag, smaller hitboxes for TWF, and mobile enemies, you often don't get the full benefits of TWF, which mostly come from standing still and whacking things. Or put another way: yes, under ideal circumstances, TWF has the best single-target DPS (as it should, IMHO); but most of us don't get to play DDO under ideal circumstances. :cool: Plus a lot of people still use twitching to amp their DPS, which also provides different results.

[Augon]

at this point, I only have two questions:

1. When will all this be up on Lamannia?
2. Will Character Copy work? - This is very important as we need to be able to test these changes on the characters we are currently playing to see how it will affect out current builds.

[Basura_Grande]

These devs are very wise.

Seriously, I think you guys are doing a great job and have a very good perspective on how to balance this game.

Aren't they the same people who caused all the mess in the first place?

If I set your house on fire then rescue your kids, does that make me a hero?

[Augon]

at this point, I only have two questions:

1. When will all this be up on Lamannia?.

As I posted this, my Lam client went green. :)

Lamannia is up!!!

[Qhualor]

Most of the complaints boil down to: due to technical issues like lag, smaller hitboxes for TWF, and mobile enemies, you often don't get the full benefits of TWF, which mostly come from standing still and whacking things. Or put another way: yes, under ideal circumstances, TWF has the best single-target DPS (as it should, IMHO); but most of us don't get to play DDO under ideal circumstances. :cool: Plus a lot of people still use twitching to amp their DPS, which also provides different results.

I would say this is one of the bigger reasons. Another one would be not having a full understanding of how TWF works.

[Vargouille]

posting is a waste of time because there are a few people who will post over and over and what I say will surely be lost.

Devs, at least, read with an eye towards this. (Not that we want to promote sock puppet accounts -- but we're very aware of when a few posters post repeatedly, and try to notice when someone is newly posting in a thread.)

[Infiltraitor]

Our thoughts on Holy Sword:

Holy Sword was very strong when it first appeared. Over time, however, it's relative power has been blunted by additional class passes that offer alternate ways to gain those competence based critical bonuses. As such we've introduced alternate options to the ever present 14 Paladin version of builds. As we continue our class passes we feel that Holy Sword will remain a strong option, but not the only option.

This is why Holy Sword didn't see as much of a change as people might have been expecting. We really hit two weapon fighting builds as they were putting out a lot of DPS for the mitigation provided by Paladin.

Our thought behind removing a missile weapon version was feedback that many of the best missile weapon options were actually better in the 14 Paladin variant. This concerned us, and we addressed it early.

Upon reading feedback from players and re-examining our builds, we are making Holy Sword once again affect missile weapons. No, we don't want 14 Paladin missile weapon builds to be the best missile option. The removal of missile weapons from Holy Sword, however, has more ramifications that most of the other changes in this balance pass as it negates a design goal for a specific kind of build. The other changes have statistical changes, but the design intent for other builds is still intact and the builds play the same. This particular aspect of Holy Sword we feel goes beyond statistical change; removing the missile option actually messes up a design intent for a specific build.

(It also bugs us that the game has long bow as an option for the Paladin's special weapon and then we take away a strong DPS boost for Paladins that go that way.)

If 14 Paladin builds are still vastly more desirable than other ranged builds even though other builds have ways to pursue similar bonuses then we will find a way to address that.

Sev~

The current changes to improved critical will result in holy sword paladins losing about 7% of their DPS.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/466536-Incoming-Holy-Sword-Nerfs

As for the favored weapons, most of them royally suck anyway except for Greatswords due to ESOS. If you could do something about them for the favored soul update, that would be much appreciated. Will likely need to nerf holy sword a little bit more to balance it out. This guy here below has some good ideas.



Proposal - Buff Favored Weapon Feats
Beloved of the Lord of Blades ---- Increase the damage of glancing blow attacks by 10% with Great Swords.
Beloved of Silver Flame ---------- You gain 10% double shot with Long Bows.
Beloved of Sovereign Host ------- You gain BAB equal to your character level and +5 damage with Long swords.
Beloved of the Undying Court --- You gain 10% double strike with Scimitars.
Beloved of Volkoor --------------- You gain a +1 critical damage multiplier on rolls of 19-20 with Short Swords.
Beloved of Amaunator ----------- You gain a +10 enchantment bonus to your main weapon when it is a Heavy Maces.

[Augon]

2. Will Character Copy work? - This is very important as we need to be able to test these changes on the characters we are currently playing to see how it will affect out current builds.

And Character Copy is working!

[Severlin]

at this point, I only have two questions:

1. When will all this be up on Lamannia?


We are working on opening Lamannia as we speak. Patience is appreciated as it also has a preview of the new store which is a huge deal for us!



2. Will Character Copy work? - This is very important as we need to be able to test these changes on the characters we are currently playing to see how it will affect out current builds.

We have been working on character copy for the last two days, and there is a functional change made in the API that's breaking us. The effort is currently ongoing.

Sev~

[Basura_Grande]

~ Do we want to legitimize Fury Eternal's gain of Adrenaline while using missile weapons, or do we want to fix that bug?

Sev~

So Fury Eternal working with ranged IS A BUG?

Does this invalidate a zillion raid speed records?

How come this s being brought up now after 3 years?

[Gunnolfr45]

Armor PRR/MRR changes:
I get that when you have rogues and mages running around in Heavy Armor, perhaps it has been powered up a bit far. I think toning the whole thing down is actually a good idea. I however hate that you are making Fighters spend 4 feats to get back *most* of what has been taken away from them. I know Fighters have a lot of feats, but ouch. Worse than that though, Paladins and Clerics totally get the shaft in this proposal. I think the whole idea while based on a good principle is so poorly executed as to be downright disastrous to the game.

My suggested solution is this: For classes that are currently granted the Heavy Armor feat (Fighter, Paladin, and Cleric) give them an auto-grant like Wilderness or Arcane Lore that at each class level adds +2 PRR and MRR when in Heavy Armor. For classes that are currently granted the Medium Armor feat (Artificer, Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Favored Soul, Fighter, and Paladin) give them an auto-grant that adds +1 PRR and MRR when in Medium Armor. I agree whole-heartedly with this suggestion...

[Hobgoblin]

Sev or varg?

Could you address shields?

maybe i missed it, but how are they going to be affected by these changes?

Right now i see that they are getting hit by-

holy sword not hitting them

crit range not hitting -ie no improved crit, and im not sure what the new crit range will be


could you elaborate on this thought process?

[PNellesen]

I would love to see healers get new enhancement trees that actually benefit a party so I can play a healer again. Give my cleric an aura that increases group MRR and PRR. Give me SLAs for mass heals and buffs! Healing procs, bonuses to group DPS/abilities/skills/etc that proc on heals.

This. I don't always play healbots, but when I do I prefer not to run through my entire blue bar in 30 seconds trying to keep melees/tanks alive. My pure Clerics may not be able to currently put out the damage numbers that the melees and arcanes do, but I actually enjoy running in groups (and raids) with them because healing ISN'T THE ONLY THING I HAVE TO DO. Not having to keep my eyes glued to red bars is nice - I can throw Cometfalls or Greater Commands or other fun spells in addition to tossing a heal now and then (being able to keep people topped off the whole time with my Aura is nice too). If this update to armor is going to result in the need for healbots again, bleh - I'll pass.

[Spekdah_NZ]

~ Do we want to legitimize Fury Eternal's gain of Adrenaline while using missile weapons, or do we want to fix that bug?

Sev~

This is why my monkcher exists in epic levels. Fury continues the burst mechanic of the monkcher builds into epic levels. I only spend adrenaline on trash if I have 7 available, I hold back some for emergencies, the **** hitting the fan etc, or when there is some nice IPS lineup goodness and of course always need some for bosses.

Without it there is no burst/spike DPS in epic levels at all. All the others trees offer sustained increases, but personally I find the kinda boring on this particular build. The fury archer is kinda unique, you only get 7 uses per reset, and it's really unpredictable on how many you get back per quest, it's never the same, running the same quest over and over has at least some variation.

If you want to keep monkchers past 20 you just need to fix the text to reflect how it works now. Otherwise dropping fury eternal on ranged attacks, may as just switch to a mechanic build, we lose a style of play that was somewhat unique.

[blerkington]

~ Since Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars have a reduced rate of fire, fishing for Mortal Fear and similar procs will be slightly less effective. We understand this and designed with this in mind.

~ With the bug in certain Fury of the Wild enhancements, Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars can be used to get back uses of Adrenaline. With the new reduced rate of fire of Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars, utilizing this bug will be slightly less effective. We understand and have designed around this. We want to either legitimize this build by changing the wording on Fury Eternal so it officially supports ranged attacks or fix the bug, and we are looking forward to feedback on this from Lamannia.

Sev~

Hi,

Could you spell out out what you mean by "slightly less effective" by providing a numerical comparison between before and after the manyshot changes?

"Slightly less effective" looks like quite the understatement. To me, "slightly less effective" is somewhere in the area of 5%, but the actual change seems like it will be many times larger than that.

Thanks.

[lifestaker]

On two weapon fighting:

There has been a lot of two weapon fighting talk, specifically about the changes to the feats and to Holy Sword and I wanted to talk about our design intent.

First, we smoothed out the Two Weapon Fighting animation and we saw a small bump in DPS. Since those builds are strong we were concerned that it would just exaggerate the difference in styles. We needed to compensate ~6% due to the change.

That said, our live builds using two weapon fighting are testing really high. I'll be honest, it concerns us that there seems to be a large disconnect on what we are seeing in testing and the players perception on two weapon fighting. We are seeing two weapon fighting build posting numbers that are 30-40% higher than builds that use two handed weapons and single weapon fighting. These builds can still generate a lot of AoE through cleaves and cleave replacements. Although the AoE of two weapon fight would be behind two handed fighting, it isn't far enough behind to warrant such a large damage differential.

As an example, we don't want to remove a two weapon fighting option for Paladin, but we also don't think it should be doing 30-40% more damage than other styles either.

I wanted to bring this up because as we read the thread I don't think we've done a good enough job communicating why we are concerned about two weapon fighting builds. As we get ready for Lamannia we will be watching player feedback on their experiences with these changes and hopefully some DPS testing to see if the players are seeing more balance or if we need to look more closely into two weapon fighting.

Sev~

Thanks for a clearer image on twf, but at least my concern (and more peoples potentially) is that the changes to IC, HS, barb crit, and everything else will be effecting dps to the point that the 6% loss from the feats would not be as noticeable. You would have to test the comparison of a low crit based character on live to the same on lamaland. Using a ranged focused ranger would be the easiest to see this change without it getting lost in the other changes.

Though that would test the loss it does not test the impact. Assassins and tempest builds would be highly effected by the IC and TWF change, these builds are not in your listed over performers. But would it be safe to say if a tempest if doing about the same damage as a paladin then it is okay? Is a barb meant to deal more or less then a tempest? If compared to a fighter the information would be biased and irrelevant, just due to the fact of the updated vs non updated classes.

----------------

On a side note: would you be willing to add the testing kobalds to live so people can get an accurate dps variations for real time application rather then just mathematical comparison. If not then would recommend you to direct players to do their own testing in cabal rather then kobald. This will allow you to get accurate numbers from the people who desire to know the difference.

[Basura_Grande]

On two weapon fighting:
Sev~

Perhaps it's time to have other modifiers besides STR (like deadly, PLs, etc . . .) multiply by 1.5?

[redoubt]

The plan is for these changes to go into effect with Update 28 Patch 1. We would like these done ahead of our level cap increase, among other reasons. A game update is needed to make these changes. Some things can be adjusted without a new game build or downtime, but the way enhancements and feats work, for example, requires code change.

When is that?

I'm really trying to finish off the paladin life I'm on before this hits.

[Violentbeginning]

On two weapon fighting:

There has been a lot of two weapon fighting talk, specifically about the changes to the feats and to Holy Sword and I wanted to talk about our design intent.

First, we smoothed out the Two Weapon Fighting animation and we saw a small bump in DPS. Since those builds are strong we were concerned that it would just exaggerate the difference in styles. We needed to compensate ~6% due to the change.

That said, our live builds using two weapon fighting are testing really high. I'll be honest, it concerns us that there seems to be a large disconnect on what we are seeing in testing and the players perception on two weapon fighting. We are seeing two weapon fighting build posting numbers that are 30-40% higher than builds that use two handed weapons and single weapon fighting. These builds can still generate a lot of AoE through cleaves and cleave replacements. Although the AoE of two weapon fight would be behind two handed fighting, it isn't far enough behind to warrant such a large damage differential.

As an example, we don't want to remove a two weapon fighting option for Paladin, but we also don't think it should be doing 30-40% more damage than other styles either.

I wanted to bring this up because as we read the thread I don't think we've done a good enough job communicating why we are concerned about two weapon fighting builds. As we get ready for Lamannia we will be watching player feedback on their experiences with these changes and hopefully some DPS testing to see if the players are seeing more balance or if we need to look more closely into two weapon fighting.

Sev~

The problem I have with the twf nerf is this. I have seen, over and over, comments about how twf pallys and barbs are "overperforming". If you want to reduce their performance, do that.

Changing twf at the base may bring those two builds down to the performance level you want. However, it reduces the effectiveness of every other twf build as well. This is especially painful for "underperforming" builds, specifically those that have not (and will not in the near future, such as monks, per developer posts) received a "pass".

Twf paladins and barbarians are "overperforming" due to new enhancement trees, and not because of the twf fighting style.

[Grailhawk]

On two weapon fighting:

There has been a lot of two weapon fighting talk, specifically about the changes to the feats and to Holy Sword and I wanted to talk about our design intent.

First, we smoothed out the Two Weapon Fighting animation and we saw a small bump in DPS. Since those builds are strong we were concerned that it would just exaggerate the difference in styles. We needed to compensate ~6% due to the change.

That said, our live builds using two weapon fighting are testing really high. I'll be honest, it concerns us that there seems to be a large disconnect on what we are seeing in testing and the players perception on two weapon fighting. We are seeing two weapon fighting build posting numbers that are 30-40% higher than builds that use two handed weapons and single weapon fighting. These builds can still generate a lot of AoE through cleaves and cleave replacements. Although the AoE of two weapon fight would be behind two handed fighting, it isn't far enough behind to warrant such a large damage differential.

As an example, we don't want to remove a two weapon fighting option for Paladin, but we also don't think it should be doing 30-40% more damage than other styles either.

I wanted to bring this up because as we read the thread I don't think we've done a good enough job communicating why we are concerned about two weapon fighting builds. As we get ready for Lamannia we will be watching player feedback on their experiences with these changes and hopefully some DPS testing to see if the players are seeing more balance or if we need to look more closely into two weapon fighting.

Sev~

1) SWF when it first came out giave 200% Stat bonus this made it as good as TWF if not better.
2) The hit-box/range issue TWF has are real people don't like them
3) People like big numbers its visceral.

Suggestion to fix the issue
1) Normalize Alacrity TWF should not scale alacrity by 120% when some THF styles are scaling it by 95%
2) Removed the Stat penalty from TWF
3) Leave the TWF feat alone
4) Remove the 150% stat bonus that THF gets
5) Remove Glancing blows from THF
6) Give THF 20% damage bonus by default and make sure that this effects all damage done in a swing Weapon Effects, Sneak Attack, Enhancement effects every thing.
7) Have each THF feat give +20% more damage bonus total of 80% with all 3 feat
8) Change SWF and ISWF to be +11% Double Strike and +11% Damage Bonus (like the one THF gets) change GSWF to be +12% of both. This gets SWF to 1.34 * 1.34 = 1.79 = 79.5% increase to total damage
9) Create a new two feat line called Wild Swings or some such that brings the glancing blow mechanic back into the mix it should have a total of about 50% increase to damage done so that when you factor in the default TWF and THF 20% increase it gets to 80% 1.5*1.2 = 1.8

[Krelar]

When is that?

I'm really trying to finish off the paladin life I'm on before this hits.

It's up on lamannia now and it includes the night revels which should be opening by Halloween. So I would guess next week is fairly likely unless something goes wrong at the last minute.

[Maelphistez]

Have you done the calculations?

BAB 24 base calculations on the PRR changes:

Heavy Armor
Live: 30 + 6 + 24 = 60 PRR
Proposed: 24 x 2 = 48 PRR

Medium Armor
Live: 20 + 4 + 16 = 40 PRR
Proposed: 24 x 1.5 = 36 PRR

Light Armor
Live: 10 + 2 + 12 = 24 PRR
Proposed: 24 x 1 = 24 PRR

The main thing is MRR, which is going to drop 30 points on fully geared Heavy armor users. It isn't getting removed entirely from builds and shields will still double MRR against dmg that has a reflex save. What kind of MRR do you run around with on your Pally? If I have.. say.. 90 MRR (which might be a bit low for average tanky players) then that 30 point MRR hit will mean 10% more damage from spells. Probably not as scary as it initially might seem.

For reference on how MRR is calculated on live: http://ddowiki.com/page/Magical_Resistance_Rating

Let me ask you this, how does the dev team make fighters as tough as a paladin (who have better saves AND self-healing) while still being unique, all while not making the game easier than it already is?

I have looked at the calculations but thank you for posting them for everyone else. And thank you for posting the Wiki reference for anyone on the forums that is unaware where to find the actual calculations. Let me first say that your 90MRR is a bit higher than what I run on my Paladin (I can't check the exact number atm as my two main characters are currently doing other classes) but I suspect that is most likely due to the fact that I have been running my Pallys either as SWF or TWF rather than with a shield. In either case, the difference is not enormous, but it is a difference. The loss in MRR from Heavy Armor actually affects my Clerics more than my Paladins in any case.

How do you make a Fighter (and let me add a Cleric) as tough as a Paladin while still being unique? I don't know. I could throw some ideas at you but they wouldn't be very well thought out at this point. Just brainstorming. I will say that comparing the power of a Paladin vs. a Fighter vs. a Cleric at this point would actually be somewhat fallacious. That's because the Paladin has already undergone its enhancement makeover while the Fighter and Cleric have not. Just imagine for a moment if Fighters were able to take an enhancement similar to Shining Through. Call it Battle Focus or something... Fighters get to add Temp HP to their total similar to what a Warlock can now do as they "focus on the battle." All of a sudden, fighters become much more durable in melee. That one ability would cause a huge spike in a Fighter's survivability compared to a Paladin.




With said suggestion how would you in turn add the perks to the wizard, bard, or warlock that are to put on med armor by gaining the proficiency. These classes would be behind to the point that it would almost not be worth 'armoring up.' Warchanters and warlocks would have no place in putting on heavier then light armor, when they have enhancements that grant them no spell failure for medium armor.

I think that Warlock already gets + to PRR/MRR when wearing heavier armor. The same could be added to the Eldritch Knight tree for both Wizards and Sorcs to use. Thus, while they are never as powerful as a Fighter in the same armor... they still can obtain more benefits from switching to heavier armor. As for the Warchanter, I don't think that they are in any particular need of increases from their armor. As it is right now, Bards are the least affected by the proposed armor changes.

[Avocado]

Greetings.

Eldritch Blast and other enhancements (Warlock)
The spellpower scaling for Eldritch Blast and several enhancements has been reduced.

Spellpower scaling of Warlock Abilities


Ability
Old
New


Eldritch Blast
150%
130%


Eldritch Blast Cone
130%
130%


Eldritch Blast Chain
110%
95%


Eldritch Blast Aura
150%
130%


Stricken (Souleater)
150%
125%


Consume (Souleater)
150%
125%


Eldritch Burst (Enlightened Spirit)
120%
100%


Spirit Blast (Enlightened Spirit)
120%
100%



Sev~

Is it at all possible to code these abilities to scale with warlock or character level? That way it grows more powerful as you level (which is the way the game should work) and you dont have to nerf it for epics. People keep dwelling on the fact that a level 20 can solo a level 32 ee on a WL while not understanding that 99% of players will never want or be able to do that. It seems that a main concern is that warlocks are over-preforming in heroics. Even with your above changes they will still over-preform.


In the nature of DDO, making certain mechanics more powerful to accommodate less skilled players also makes already powerful players and builds more powerful. This is where we ran into a problem and people started complaining because the top 5% of DDO players were showing off their uberness. Coming from a player that pugs 95% when playing alone, I dont see any of them (the PUGS) over-preforming. Most of them are rather sub-par and still significantly under what I would consider a lot of dps. PUG raids are still challenging even on EN and most EE content with PUGs wouldnt get completed if I hadnt joined (not trying to brag with this but its the nature of PUGS and new players). I am not sure what would be a good way to accommodate for these uber players is, but dont nerf crits because the top 5-10% of players are bragging about uberness. You need to accommodate by making the game more challenging for the uber players. Mobs hitting harder is not more challenging, more mobs it not more challenging, more hp in not more challenging, and specialized mobs are not more challenging. Clever game mechanics make it more challenging. Lord of Blades is the best example I can find for truly challenging quests. It requires: specialized tasks (tanking, kiting, healing, not killing certain things, killing things at the correct time, etc.), A reasonably coordinated party (including a good leader) and it isnt a mow down everything as quick as you can raid. It has specialized mechanics that you need to dodge. Whatever happened to the quests that required more then 1 person or the quests that required a skilled person (i am looking at you tomb of the tormented)?
Shadow dragon is also a great raid in terms of mechanics. I like shadow dragon; their I said it.

I know this post went off topic but I just felt like typing it.

[Mellkor]

On two weapon fighting:

... We are seeing two weapon fighting build posting numbers that are 30-40% higher than builds that use two handed weapons and single weapon fighting. These builds can still generate a lot of AoE through cleaves and cleave replacements. Although the AoE of two weapon fight would be behind two handed fighting, it isn't far enough behind to warrant such a large damage differential.....

Sev~

This is OK. First of all I assume you are talking about single target DPS. In this case this is as it should be. VS S&B this too, is as it should be, at the cost of defense.

TWF vs THF when surrounded by mobs? currently the THF wins by a mile. I just do not see how what you are saying matches up with my personal in game experience with all of the builds mentioned here. I have lots of experience with all of these builds, I currently have well geared versions of each of these builds, and again, my in game experience if a far cry from what you guys are saying.

Stop using the fat kobald and get your arses out to TOEE elite. Then lets talk :D

[CThruTheEgo]

That said, our live builds using two weapon fighting are testing really high. I'll be honest, it concerns us that there seems to be a large disconnect on what we are seeing in testing and the players perception on two weapon fighting.

We certainly cannot help clarify where that disconnect is coming from without greater transparency from you all regarding your testing conditions. I've said this before and I'm sure I'll say it again - references to internal dev testing don't mean anything to us without some transparency about it. Exactly what builds are you using for different testing, in exactly what conditions, and exactly what results are you getting? In this regard, the more details, the better. As I've also mentioned before, I'm not asking you all to "vet" your testing procedures with the player base. I'm just asking you to be transparent about them because there is no way for us to help clarify where the disconnect may be coming from if we don't know anything about your testing.

[redoubt]

~ The changes to Improved Critical do mess up the balance for Assassins between kukri and daggers, and for Swashbucklers who can take enhancements to normalize weapon types. We are going to implement additional changes so that characters who have the Improved Critical feat will gain extra threat range for under performing weapons to maintain the weapon balance you have live using these builds.


Please do.



~ Since Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars have a reduced rate of fire, fishing for Mortal Fear and similar procs will be slightly less effective. We understand this and designed with this in mind.


Slightly less is an understatement. The rate of fire is being cut roughly in half during 10k and manyshot. That is a lot more than slightly.



~ With the bug in certain Fury of the Wild enhancements, Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars can be used to get back uses of Adrenaline. With the new reduced rate of fire of Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars, utilizing this bug will be slightly less effective. We understand and have designed around this. We want to either legitimize this build by changing the wording on Fury Eternal so it officially supports ranged attacks or fix the bug, and we are looking forward to feedback on this from Lamannia.


I used to be against fury shot. Then I played one to check it out. The burst is a lot of fun and really helps the team out against bosses and other specific situations. The rest of the time is pretty bad DPS. I realize that you are trying to normalize the DPS, but I don't think you are doing nearly enough to not lose DPS and you are removing the only real burst build out there.



~ It's not that we mind two weapon fighting Paladins doing decent DPS, or two weapon barbarians doing decent DPS, but these builds should not be outperforming builds based on other styles by 40% or higher.


Fine, but the TWF change hits ALL TWF (fighter, rogues, rangers etc) that are not the problem.




~ We will be watching Vanguard Paladin builds to make sure they are still fun and competitive after the changes.


I believe you. Sadly, I am worried that deadlines placed on you from above will prevent any real resources from flowing back into this for several updates.



~ We think there has been a lot of good discussion in particular on MRR, armor, and whether these changes will put us back into a state where everyone feel compelled to take Evasion. We have read suggestions that some smaller amount of MRR might be added back to armors and we've been looking at that option. I just wanted to point out the reductions do not put us back to pre Armor Up balance. The PRR formula is more generous, and the PRR offered by armor is still higher. Heavy armor mitigates a lot more damage than before Armor Up. In addition, there are many sources of MRR, including gear, that simply did not exist before, including enhancements that only work with medium or heavy armors. Armored characters are still in much better shape than in the past, which is why we'd like to see this on Lamannia.


You are hitting certain builds with multiple nerfs at once. How will you know which one is causing what affect? If it is too much, how do you know what to undo?



~ We have been reading with interest the concerns with named weapons that have increased threat ranges built in and how they interact with Improved Critical. This interaction is part of the design, as these threat ranges provided too much benefit previously. The fact that some of these weapons with lower level requirements were better than end game weapons highlights the problem fairly well.


If not to take advantage of the special qualities of named weapons, i'll just craft. So why have them.

You mention low level weapons: Is the silver longbow going from 19-20 to 17-20 going to break something? If I am comparing a silver longbow with a 18-20 crit to something I can craft, the crafted item will do more damage all day long. Push the silver long bow to 17-20 and I may use it situationally.

For high level weapons, what about the Foresters Brushhook. The whole reason to use this was for a really wide crit profile.

The damage on these weapons without crits is bad. It is the crit profiles that make them worth using.



~ Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars still provide a massive burst of damage; we really don't think these builds will lose their burst feel when these abilities provide an additional 200-300% damage increase depending on gearing.


First you say "slightly" when rate of fire is cut in HALF, then you use "massive" when you talk about what is maybe a 50% increase. Many of us have been trying to point out that 10k/manyshot builds did not run doubleshot before. Now these builds will invest in it heavily and likely run very high doubleshot. Your buff from 10k and manyshot will not even guarantee a 3rd arrow, so the increase in dps is going from 300% to somewhere between 25 and 50%. I don't know how many other ways I can explain this.

[Thar]

These are the same and very wise Devs that added the armor up as they saw mostly pajama builds running around prior to it. Not to impugn on anyones idea of how good or bad their perspective is, but this reversal of what was puts that whole idea in perspective.

Personally I wish Turbine would finish some of their pressing projects and then balance or even better, balance something before they release it. Particularly on pay 2 win classes. Otherwise the wisdom will be in question for sure.

agreed, spend the time to get it right the first time. LISTEN to people when they say it's op or broken (ie I was yelling left and right that 2x shield mrr was too much). Twf was the same, we showed that it was not a style that was ahead in dps. devs reviewed and put 6mp in the feats. now suddenly it's out of balance? no... we proved it wasn't months ago.

Don't put it live and then months later tell people oh your build is op so now we're changing the rules in a negative way again. Broken things like warlock ok, but there don't nerf and nerf and nerf. fix it the first nerf. why are we on the 3rd? nerf for holy sword? be positive with changes to buff and bring people back to the game. nerf batting things to obivion drives people away.

[redoubt]

Our thoughts on Holy Sword:

Holy Sword was very strong when it first appeared. Over time, however, it's relative power has been blunted by additional class passes that offer alternate ways to gain those competence based critical bonuses. As such we've introduced alternate options to the ever present 14 Paladin version of builds. As we continue our class passes we feel that Holy Sword will remain a strong option, but not the only option.

This is why Holy Sword didn't see as much of a change as people might have been expecting. We really hit two weapon fighting builds as they were putting out a lot of DPS for the mitigation provided by Paladin.

Our thought behind removing a missile weapon version was feedback that many of the best missile weapon options were actually better in the 14 Paladin variant. This concerned us, and we addressed it early.

Upon reading feedback from players and re-examining our builds, we are making Holy Sword once again affect missile weapons. No, we don't want 14 Paladin missile weapon builds to be the best missile option. The removal of missile weapons from Holy Sword, however, has more ramifications that most of the other changes in this balance pass as it negates a design goal for a specific kind of build. The other changes have statistical changes, but the design intent for other builds is still intact and the builds play the same. This particular aspect of Holy Sword we feel goes beyond statistical change; removing the missile option actually messes up a design intent for a specific build.

(It also bugs us that the game has long bow as an option for the Paladin's special weapon and then we take away a strong DPS boost for Paladins that go that way.)

If 14 Paladin builds are still vastly more desirable than other ranged builds even though other builds have ways to pursue similar bonuses then we will find a way to address that.

Sev~

Then put it back on the shields.

[redoubt]

On two weapon fighting:

There has been a lot of two weapon fighting talk, specifically about the changes to the feats and to Holy Sword and I wanted to talk about our design intent.

First, we smoothed out the Two Weapon Fighting animation and we saw a small bump in DPS. Since those builds are strong we were concerned that it would just exaggerate the difference in styles. We needed to compensate ~6% due to the change.

That said, our live builds using two weapon fighting are testing really high. I'll be honest, it concerns us that there seems to be a large disconnect on what we are seeing in testing and the players perception on two weapon fighting. We are seeing two weapon fighting build posting numbers that are 30-40% higher than builds that use two handed weapons and single weapon fighting. These builds can still generate a lot of AoE through cleaves and cleave replacements. Although the AoE of two weapon fight would be behind two handed fighting, it isn't far enough behind to warrant such a large damage differential.

As an example, we don't want to remove a two weapon fighting option for Paladin, but we also don't think it should be doing 30-40% more damage than other styles either.

I wanted to bring this up because as we read the thread I don't think we've done a good enough job communicating why we are concerned about two weapon fighting builds. As we get ready for Lamannia we will be watching player feedback on their experiences with these changes and hopefully some DPS testing to see if the players are seeing more balance or if we need to look more closely into two weapon fighting.

Sev~

SOME. SOME TWF builds are overperforming. Not all.

Please find a way to fix the ones that are overperforming without hitting the rest.

Thank you.

[unbongwah]

So Fury Eternal working with ranged IS A BUG?

Does this invalidate a zillion raid speed records?

How come this s being brought up now after 3 years?
It's been brought up repeatedly for years - probably ever since EDs first came out. It's never been fixed. The more things change... :rolleyes:

[Steve_Howe]

Upon reading feedback from players and re-examining our builds, we are making Holy Sword once again affect missile weapons. No, we don't want 14 Paladin missile weapon builds to be the best missile option. The removal of missile weapons from Holy Sword, however, has more ramifications that most of the other changes in this balance pass as it negates a design goal for a specific kind of build. The other changes have statistical changes, but the design intent for other builds is still intact and the builds play the same. This particular aspect of Holy Sword we feel goes beyond statistical change; removing the missile option actually messes up a design intent for a specific build.

Yay! The Silver Flame's paladins are happy their god will, once again, give them what every other paladin gets from theirs!

[Thar]

On two weapon fighting:

There has been a lot of two weapon fighting talk, specifically about the changes to the feats and to Holy Sword and I wanted to talk about our design intent.

First, we smoothed out the Two Weapon Fighting animation and we saw a small bump in DPS. Since those builds are strong we were concerned that it would just exaggerate the difference in styles. We needed to compensate ~6% due to the change.

That said, our live builds using two weapon fighting are testing really high. I'll be honest, it concerns us that there seems to be a large disconnect on what we are seeing in testing and the players perception on two weapon fighting. We are seeing two weapon fighting build posting numbers that are 30-40% higher than builds that use two handed weapons and single weapon fighting. These builds can still generate a lot of AoE through cleaves and cleave replacements. Although the AoE of two weapon fight would be behind two handed fighting, it isn't far enough behind to warrant such a large damage differential.

As an example, we don't want to remove a two weapon fighting option for Paladin, but we also don't think it should be doing 30-40% more damage than other styles either.

I wanted to bring this up because as we read the thread I don't think we've done a good enough job communicating why we are concerned about two weapon fighting builds. As we get ready for Lamannia we will be watching player feedback on their experiences with these changes and hopefully some DPS testing to see if the players are seeing more balance or if we need to look more closely into two weapon fighting.

Sev~

I'm not seeing 30-40% higher damage on hits. perhaps because i'm using short swords to gain light weapon benefits. I don't get cleave or greatcleave or supreme cleave so i'm only hitting one opponent often for more reason than i don't want agro of more since prr isn't high enough to survive after the stupid earth stance agro bump. 2 maybe 3 with DOD when a tank can get agro however rarely 4 with the hit box the way it is. AOE is huge at endgame when the mobs trigger in packs of 6+. So test khopeshes in blitz, but it's not all of us use that as we are ETR or xp'ing in another destiny.

[Severlin]

SOME. SOME TWF builds are overperforming. Not all.

Please find a way to fix the ones that are overperforming without hitting the rest.

Thank you.

The change to TWF feats compensates for the DPS increase from the animation change.

The only two weapon fighting build we changed is Paladin.

Sev~

[the_one_dwarfforged]

I'm replying to you in lieu of the 3 other people who said the same thing.


Creating more feats for everyone only allows linear power growth got non-fighters until they have used up all of their feats, which occurs LONG before fighters have run out of feats. Once that cap is reached, fighters start getting a bigger and bigger advantage from their number of feats. If there are 12-15 totally solid melee feats, everyone but a fighter is going to have to make choices and sacrifices, where fighters will get to just take every one of them, if they want. Which is in keeping with the flavor described, wherein fighters are really good at melee, man-at-arms combat. Same can be done with archery, especially since everything that currently wields a bow is pressed for feats already. More meaningful feats means more options for everyone, more things they can't take that fighters can.

The best part is this avoids needless exclusionary feats that are far more in keeping with the way a Paladin is made, and the fact that if they are fighter only feats their balance will take a back seat, whereas the devs will stay on top of a widely-used feat list.

This is really not complicated, if a good feat list that is larger than the number of feats available to non-fighter classes is presented, the advantage in the feat game is with fighters. In the current game where a Tempest can get every worthwhile melee feat, and an AA can get every bow feat than has major impact, fighters can't compete because they don't have the enhancements of the specialist trees, but they also don't have any feats to pick up that slack, since they don't have important feats available to them that the other classes don't also have. The way to give fighters the edge isn't in fighter-only feats, that creates a situation where you have undesirable feats that get taken a lot because they are all there is to take. Instead, let them be able to afford A and B feats for whatever fighting style, where the other classes in that fighting style have to take A or B.

Think this way, if A and B feats both gave approximately equal value, the fighter gets both and the other class gets A, then the fighter is ahead by whatever value B has. He's got as much power advantage over the other class as he would have if he took B and they got nothing.

this may be (or not, idfk) the reality in whatever version of pnp.

unfortunately it is so far from the reality of ddo that its not even funny. if fighters and feats in this game were closer to your theoretical ideal, i might agree with you that things should work that way, and fighters might not have ever sucked.

[maddong]

Why not just nerf mortal fear or make barbarian capstone only affect main hand? Why nerf the whole twf style that has the worst cleaves?

Swf wolf?

Tree form 4 hit cleaves while shield blocking?

[Vargouille]

Bottom line, you have it backwards. The buff is to the builds that don't use manyshot, the builds that already use manyshot are taking a nerf.

Yes, we understand that builds without Doubleshot will now want to get some. This is also with the knowledge that by removing the Doubleshot penalty that will happen anyway (to varying degrees for each character, but most will want moderate or high amounts).

We, and players, are pretty strongly agreed that we want this to remove the Doubleshot penalty. Therefore, it is right to balance under the assumption that players are going to get it. Yes, we realize that can be frustrating for builds that don't care about the penalty currently, but it's essential and necessary to plan around those builds gaining Doubleshot after this change. Otherwise we basically have to leave the penalty in place.

To maintain a high level of on-hit effects will require getting more Doubleshot. This may be more of a nerf to players who usually melee and switch to Manyshot only 1/6 or less of the time, since they also didn't care about the Doubleshot debuff. Straight up damage during Manyshot isn't drastically changed (but it is changed).

These are some of the costs we considered when deciding to remove the Doubleshot penalty, which players have strongly lobbied for, for some time now. We do it with the knowledge that there are costs for doing so and it's not just developers paying some of those costs. That doesn't mean we shouldn't make the change, nor that we should try to go through this level of detail for every single change (which isn't even thorough, really), because almost inevitably it just makes more players upset and missing a single beat or thought makes us look worse. (I've even been advised that my responding to this thread so much should help cement my position as most hated dev and I should shut up more. ;] May be true - I've often been told I talk too much. No Worries about me actually shutting up... I'm not very good at it.)

Nearly every balance change is like this, including buffs. (As recently as the Tempest/DWS pass, players threatened us "because Rangers were getting buffed too much", so it definitely goes both ways.)

[Violentbeginning]

The change to TWF feats compensates for the DPS increase from the animation change.

The only two weapon fighting build we changed is Paladin.

Sev~

Question. Does the new animation change increase unarmed animations/dps?

[Severlin]

Slightly less is an understatement. The rate of fire is being cut roughly in half during 10k and manyshot.


I am not sure how you are getting this unless you are completely avoiding doubleshot.

Sev~

[Severlin]

Question. Does the new animation change increase unarmed animations/dps?

No. We will be compensating monks when we have a chance to go through the handwrap tech.

Sev~

[Violentbeginning]

No. We will be compensating monks when we have a chance to go through the handwrap tech.

Sev~

Ok, thanks for the response. Its disappointing to hear however, especially considering that from what we've heard, that is not even on the horizon yet.

[Steve_Howe]

Ok, thanks for the response. Its disappointing to hear however, especially considering that from what we've heard, that is not even on the horizon yet.

Yeah, I feel the same way.

[Severlin]

Ok, thanks for the response. Its disappointing to hear however, especially considering that from what we've heard, that is not even on the horizon yet.

Any time we've tried to do a partial update to shore up a particular tree or class to give them some relief until their full pass we've had negative player feedback on those efforts.

Sev~

[Violentbeginning]

Any time we've tried to do a partial update to shore up a particular tree or class to give them some relief until their full pass we've had negative player feedback on those efforts.

Sev~

Ya, I understand, just am disappointed.

[Steve_Howe]

Any time we've tried to do a partial update to shore up a particular tree or class to give them some relief until their full pass we've had negative player feedback on those efforts.

Sev~

I understand your feelings and concerns about this fact. Still, Monk is my favorite class and it's a real bummer not playing him in the toughest content DDO has to offer.

Please make sure that when it is time to work on the Monk, that you make it as competitive as the Swashbuckler, the Paladin, the Barb, the Ranger, and all the other classes that have gotten or will get their passes before the Monk does.

Thanks.

[maddong]

+20 hearts?

[Blastyswa]

Upon reading feedback from players and re-examining our builds, we are making Holy Sword once again affect missile weapons. No, we don't want 14 Paladin missile weapon builds to be the best missile option. The removal of missile weapons from Holy Sword, however, has more ramifications that most of the other changes in this balance pass as it negates a design goal for a specific kind of build. The other changes have statistical changes, but the design intent for other builds is still intact and the builds play the same. This particular aspect of Holy Sword we feel goes beyond statistical change; removing the missile option actually messes up a design intent for a specific build.


Thank you very much. I've said this a few times but I don't think I've said it enough, my thanks to the development team for adding in so many valid options for alternate melee/ranged builds in the past few years. I think that keeping Holy Sword functioning how it is will help keep development going in the right direction for a fun and diverse game.

[blerkington]

Hi,


I am not sure how you are getting this unless you are completely avoiding doubleshot.

So once again, what do you think the reduction will be during the active periods for new manyshot and 10k stars? No best case scenarios please, use a doubleshot figure which is realistically obtainable.


We, and players, are pretty strongly agreed that we want this to remove the Doubleshot penalty. Therefore, it is right to balance under the assumption that players are going to get it. Yes, we realize that can be frustrating for builds that don't care about the penalty currently, but it's essential and necessary to plan around those builds gaining Doubleshot after this change. Otherwise we basically have to leave the penalty in place.

This is a false dichotomy. What you seem to be doing here is ruling out the possibility that the game can be changed in a way to support both burst and constant damage styles for archery while making sure people can't spec both ways and thereby get too much benefit from the changes. Several solutions were presented for this in the AA thread, and none of them were addressed by the developers. Do you feel that you have done everything you can to solve this problem? It does not seem that way to me.

Thanks.

[RD2play]

Yes, we understand that builds without Doubleshot will now want to get some. This is also with the knowledge that by removing the Doubleshot penalty that will happen anyway (to varying degrees for each character, but most will want moderate or high amounts).

We, and players, are pretty strongly agreed that we want this to remove the Doubleshot penalty. Therefore, it is right to balance under the assumption that players are going to get it. Yes, we realize that can be frustrating for builds that don't care about the penalty currently, but it's essential and necessary to plan around those builds gaining Doubleshot after this change. Otherwise we basically have to leave the penalty in place.

To maintain a high level of on-hit effects will require getting more Doubleshot. This may be more of a nerf to players who usually melee and switch to Manyshot only 1/6 or less of the time, since they also didn't care about the Doubleshot debuff. Straight up damage during Manyshot isn't drastically changed (but it is changed).

These are some of the costs we considered when deciding to remove the Doubleshot penalty, which players have strongly lobbied for, for some time now. We do it with the knowledge that there are costs for doing so and it's not just developers paying some of those costs. That doesn't mean we shouldn't make the change, nor that we should try to go through this level of detail for every single change (which isn't even thorough, really), because almost inevitably it just makes more players upset and missing a single beat or thought makes us look worse. (I've even been advised that my responding to this thread so much should help cement my position as most hated dev and I should shut up more. ;] May be true - I've often been told I talk too much. No Worries about me actually shutting up... I'm not very good at it.)

Nearly every balance change is like this, including buffs. (As recently as the Tempest/DWS pass, players threatened us "because Rangers were getting buffed too much", so it definitely goes both ways.)

Thanks Varg for better clearing up about the 10k+MS change I don't feel as bad about it now

[arkonas]

Yes, we understand that builds without Doubleshot will now want to get some. This is also with the knowledge that by removing the Doubleshot penalty that will happen anyway (to varying degrees for each character, but most will want moderate or high amounts).

We, and players, are pretty strongly agreed that we want this to remove the Doubleshot penalty. Therefore, it is right to balance under the assumption that players are going to get it. Yes, we realize that can be frustrating for builds that don't care about the penalty currently, but it's essential and necessary to plan around those builds gaining Doubleshot after this change. Otherwise we basically have to leave the penalty in place.

To maintain a high level of on-hit effects will require getting more Doubleshot. This may be more of a nerf to players who usually melee and switch to Manyshot only 1/6 or less of the time, since they also didn't care about the Doubleshot debuff. Straight up damage during Manyshot isn't drastically changed (but it is changed).

These are some of the costs we considered when deciding to remove the Doubleshot penalty, which players have strongly lobbied for, for some time now. We do it with the knowledge that there are costs for doing so and it's not just developers paying some of those costs. That doesn't mean we shouldn't make the change, nor that we should try to go through this level of detail for every single change (which isn't even thorough, really), because almost inevitably it just makes more players upset and missing a single beat or thought makes us look worse. (I've even been advised that my responding to this thread so much should help cement my position as most hated dev and I should shut up more. ;] May be true - I've often been told I talk too much. No Worries about me actually shutting up... I'm not very good at it.)

Nearly every balance change is like this, including buffs. (As recently as the Tempest/DWS pass, players threatened us "because Rangers were getting buffed too much", so it definitely goes both ways.)

i ignore the haters. everyone wants their class worked on or some hate the ones that were worked on. people can't complain about the current passes because it brought people back to all of those classes. some were actually happy to play them. as for posting too much. who cares imo. while i might not agree with some things you did i still think you try to make the game better for most of us. some just are never happy with any changes. we all get so used to the game as it is and think its never going to change. lol maybe they're new to mmos. i would like to know a mmo that doesn't constantly change their abilities over time.

As for the mmr i would hate to see it completely removed from armor. there still are builds out there that really need some of it that don't have evasion. i think it would just kill them even more losing it. i think a reduced rate is the best way. people will now start taking heavier damage from magic. for example heroic elite devils gambit and all. those acid blasts and fireballs really hurt if there is a nasty champion. now if you take away mrr from those who can't normally find it at that level. it takes away whatever defenses they had. reduce it by half or something but i don't see a need to remove it completely but just my thought.

[Kamode_Corebasher]

Our thoughts on Holy Sword:

Holy Sword was very strong when it first appeared. Over time, however, it's relative power has been blunted by additional class passes that offer alternate ways to gain those competence based critical bonuses. As such we've introduced alternate options to the ever present 14 Paladin version of builds. As we continue our class passes we feel that Holy Sword will remain a strong option, but not the only option.

This is why Holy Sword didn't see as much of a change as people might have been expecting. We really hit two weapon fighting builds as they were putting out a lot of DPS for the mitigation provided by Paladin.

Our thought behind removing a missile weapon version was feedback that many of the best missile weapon options were actually better in the 14 Paladin variant. This concerned us, and we addressed it early.

Upon reading feedback from players and re-examining our builds, we are making Holy Sword once again affect missile weapons. No, we don't want 14 Paladin missile weapon builds to be the best missile option. The removal of missile weapons from Holy Sword, however, has more ramifications that most of the other changes in this balance pass as it negates a design goal for a specific kind of build. The other changes have statistical changes, but the design intent for other builds is still intact and the builds play the same. This particular aspect of Holy Sword we feel goes beyond statistical change; removing the missile option actually messes up a design intent for a specific build.

(It also bugs us that the game has long bow as an option for the Paladin's special weapon and then we take away a strong DPS boost for Paladins that go that way.)

If 14 Paladin builds are still vastly more desirable than other ranged builds even though other builds have ways to pursue similar bonuses then we will find a way to address that.

Sev~

Thanks for this initial adjustment and thanks for this broad balance pass. I'm unsure any/all negatives and positives that will result, but your efforts to make this a better game is appreciated!!

[arkonas]

Any time we've tried to do a partial update to shore up a particular tree or class to give them some relief until their full pass we've had negative player feedback on those efforts.

Sev~

that reasoning is because they want their pass now. they don't want to wait ever. most come from being impatient. they want everything done without thinking how much work can go into it. its just the customer thinking only about themselves without thinking reality if this would even be possible to get it all done. so i'll take a partial update for some classes until a real pass. sometimes you also just need to put your foot down and ignore us. we act like children sometimes when we get use to something or don't get something enough. :P

[Astoroth]

My guess is your testing isn't really checking end cap characters burst damage. If you are not comparing it to thf with adrenaline, or smite. You can regularly get 5 digit hits with those. A lot of players use combat interupts and don't rely on auto attacks. If your balancing is based on normal auto attacks, and not burst damage; just wow you're missing the boat. Burst damage is of course why many shot/fury shot as well as holy sword needed a nerf. Its not your average hit that is the issue, but the most likely critical hit special attacks.

Your missing a huge opportunity to fix the combat paradigm in general. Asherons call had weapon speed correlate inversely to weapon damage, so all attack styles were pretty much equal; it was one of the best features of that game. Just because the base weapons have differences in the d&d rules; its no real reason to exacerbate the issue, by multiplying the flaw in epic feats that you've made up. You propose some changes to overwhelming critical, but it just makes the feat 3 times as valuable for people playing certain weapons types than others. Just make it a flat +2 to critical threat, that will make the feat equally valuable to all people who take it, and not 3 times as useful for certain builds over others.

You could easily apply the same flat critical threat bonus to the heroic feats that modify critical threat as well. This would go a long way to balancing the weapon system.

That being said, from what I see your proposed changes single out twf, and probably ruins the game in general. You have all these bloated hp monsters. you cant nerf burst dps and expect the game to still function well, after spending years of trying to resolve pve balance by just giving monsters more hit points.



On two weapon fighting:

There has been a lot of two weapon fighting talk, specifically about the changes to the feats and to Holy Sword and I wanted to talk about our design intent.

First, we smoothed out the Two Weapon Fighting animation and we saw a small bump in DPS. Since those builds are strong we were concerned that it would just exaggerate the difference in styles. We needed to compensate ~6% due to the change.

That said, our live builds using two weapon fighting are testing really high. I'll be honest, it concerns us that there seems to be a large disconnect on what we are seeing in testing and the players perception on two weapon fighting. We are seeing two weapon fighting build posting numbers that are 30-40% higher than builds that use two handed weapons and single weapon fighting. These builds can still generate a lot of AoE through cleaves and cleave replacements. Although the AoE of two weapon fight would be behind two handed fighting, it isn't far enough behind to warrant such a large damage differential.

As an example, we don't want to remove a two weapon fighting option for Paladin, but we also don't think it should be doing 30-40% more damage than other styles either.

I wanted to bring this up because as we read the thread I don't think we've done a good enough job communicating why we are concerned about two weapon fighting builds. As we get ready for Lamannia we will be watching player feedback on their experiences with these changes and hopefully some DPS testing to see if the players are seeing more balance or if we need to look more closely into two weapon fighting.

Sev~

[mikarddo]

I am not sure how you are getting this unless you are completely avoiding doubleshot.

Sev~

As a halfling 12 monk / 6 ranger / 2 paladin using AA tier 5 I can get a maximum of 29% doubleshot. (2% ship, 9% epl, 10% epic feat and 8% quiver). With that and high wisdom I am looking at 25% fewer arrows over the course of the full 2 minute cycle.

I am very much not ignoring doubleshot - I cannot possibly get more with this build - yet I am 26% behind for on-hit and vorpal effects. Is that what you consider slightly or what kind of percentage reduction did you have in mind when you wrote "slightly"?

Calculations.

Now:
MS = 20 sec * 4 arrows/sec = 80
10k = 60 sec * 2.75 arrows/sec = 165
Nothing = 25 sec * 1 arrow/sec + 15 sec * 1.29 arrows/sec = 44
Total 289

Proposed (using Tensors for full bab, which is annoying so kindly change that to char level):
MS = 20 * 2.41 = 48
10k = 60 * 1.89 = 113
Nothing = 40 * 1.29 = 52
Total 213

A reduction from 289 to 213 is a reduction of 26.3% arrows. Kindly elaborate on "slightly".

[BigErkyKid]

Any time we've tried to do a partial update to shore up a particular tree or class to give them some relief until their full pass we've had negative player feedback on those efforts.

Sev~

Throw monks a bone. You are doing it with fighters. Are monks less worthy for whatever reason?

They lack DPS and their abilities are completely outdated. You could rework some of the abilities just by scaling them and reducing the cool down.

[Thar]

Why not just nerf mortal fear or make barbarian capstone only affect main hand? Why nerf the whole twf style that has the worst cleaves?

Swf wolf?

Tree form 4 hit cleaves while shield blocking?

my god enough with the nerf moral fear. if you don't like it don't build one. if you did build one then it's because nothing else was good.

[blerkington]

As a halfling 12 monk / 6 ranger / 2 paladin using AA tier 5 I can get a maximum of 29% doubleshot. (2% ship, 9% epl, 10% epic feat and 8% quiver). With that and high wisdom I am looking at 25% fewer arrows over the course of the full 2 minute cycle.

I am very much not ignoring doubleshot - I cannot possibly get more with this build - yet I am 26% behind for on-hit and vorpal effects. Is that what you consider slightly or what kind of percentage reduction did you have in mind when you wrote "slightly"?

Calculations.

Now:
MS = 20 sec * 4 arrows/sec = 80
10k = 60 sec * 2.75 arrows/sec = 165
Nothing = 25 sec * 1 arrow/sec + 15 sec * 1.29 arrows/sec = 44
Total 289

Proposed (using Tensors for full bab, which is annoying so kindly chance that to char level):
MS = 20 * 2.41 = 48
10k = 60 * 1.89 = 113
Nothing = 40 * 1.29 = 52
Total 213

A reduction from 289 to 213 is a reduction of 26.3% arrows.

Hi,

Good post.

This is a very generous assessment of the reduction too, because it takes into account the boost provided from doubleshot for the entire two minute cycle.

Builds which alternate between melee and manyshot actually face a much higher reduction. It's considerably more than "slightly".

There is no need to pretend that burst and melee/manyshot builds must be nerfed to benefit full-time archers, when a solution could be found for all styles. All it will take is a little more effort.

Thanks.

[redoubt]

(I've even been advised that my responding to this thread so much should help cement my position as most hated dev and I should shut up more. ;] May be true - I've often been told I talk too much. No Worries about me actually shutting up... I'm not very good at it.)



I'm a person who can disagree with someone without hating them.

I've agreed with you on about as many things as I've disagreed. While I may not have liked all your decisions, I've felt you (and the team) have been professional about it.

I'm glad to see you and Sev participating like you are.

[Severlin]

My guess is your testing isn't really checking end cap characters burst damage.


I am not sure why you have that belief. We test end game characters in full end game gear on a variety of EDs both doing the Bruntsmash test and also grinding through our high end test kobolds. When we see videos we sometimes hunt down and make copies of those characters and use them to test DPS as well.

Sev~

[redoubt]

I am not sure how you are getting this unless you are completely avoiding doubleshot.

Sev~

On live, manyshot takes you from 1 arrow to 4. This is a 300% increase.

Yes, manyshot and 10k builds mostly (the ones I know and the ones I have played) ignore doubleshot. With the penalty there was just not enough time without the penalty to invest in doubleshot.

Now when you fast forward to the proposed change, most will push as hard as possible into doubleshot and likely be shooting 2 arrows most of the time. From that baseline, the manyshot and 10k buffs will, at most add a single arrow and sometimes not even that.

[bloodnose13]

nvm

[1Soulless1]

Anybody who has played this game long enough can tell you these are release notes. Turbine made up their minds long ago about these changes. They do these "feedback" threads to soften the blow for when it goes live. They do not listen to feedback about things until long after they go live, and then usually ignore anything constructive.


Pretty much this, 48 pages atm and very little to nothing will change. Lama will come up, people will test for new 'features' and keep quiet about them. This Mess will go live and if anything benefits the players the game servers will be ripped down for a hotfix. If it doesn't it will be put on the 'known issue list' and fixed soon™.


Rinse lather repeat, all is good at turbine HQ moving right along, btw try the kool-aid I hear its fantastic ;)

[patang01]

Yes, we understand that builds without Doubleshot will now want to get some. This is also with the knowledge that by removing the Doubleshot penalty that will happen anyway (to varying degrees for each character, but most will want moderate or high amounts).

We, and players, are pretty strongly agreed that we want this to remove the Doubleshot penalty. Therefore, it is right to balance under the assumption that players are going to get it. Yes, we realize that can be frustrating for builds that don't care about the penalty currently, but it's essential and necessary to plan around those builds gaining Doubleshot after this change. Otherwise we basically have to leave the penalty in place.

To maintain a high level of on-hit effects will require getting more Doubleshot. This may be more of a nerf to players who usually melee and switch to Manyshot only 1/6 or less of the time, since they also didn't care about the Doubleshot debuff. Straight up damage during Manyshot isn't drastically changed (but it is changed).

These are some of the costs we considered when deciding to remove the Doubleshot penalty, which players have strongly lobbied for, for some time now. We do it with the knowledge that there are costs for doing so and it's not just developers paying some of those costs. That doesn't mean we shouldn't make the change, nor that we should try to go through this level of detail for every single change (which isn't even thorough, really), because almost inevitably it just makes more players upset and missing a single beat or thought makes us look worse. (I've even been advised that my responding to this thread so much should help cement my position as most hated dev and I should shut up more. ;] May be true - I've often been told I talk too much. No Worries about me actually shutting up... I'm not very good at it.)

Nearly every balance change is like this, including buffs. (As recently as the Tempest/DWS pass, players threatened us "because Rangers were getting buffed too much", so it definitely goes both ways.)

I hope you realize that this is a triple nerf to the newly changed Tempest. First, changing crit range and melee power. Second, lower damage mitigation. And for builds that try to use divine grace for higher saves to adjust for the lower PRR and MRR (prior to change, now even lower) a nerf. And finally a nerf to manyshot that effects Tempest the most since it won't have much resources to invest in ranged and rely on the burst for additional DPS.

[Severlin]

I am very much not ignoring doubleshot - I cannot possibly get more with this build - yet I am 26% behind for on-hit and vorpal effects. Is that what you consider slightly or what kind of percentage reduction did you have in mind when you wrote "slightly"?

Calculations.

Now:
MS = 20 sec * 4 arrows/sec = 80
10k = 60 sec * 2.75 arrows/sec = 165
Nothing = 25 sec * 1 arrow/sec + 15 sec * 1.29 arrows/sec = 44
Total 289

Proposed (using Tensors for full bab, which is annoying so kindly change that to char level):
MS = 20 * 2.41 = 48
10k = 60 * 1.89 = 113
Nothing = 40 * 1.29 = 52
Total 213

A reduction from 289 to 213 is a reduction of 26.3% arrows. Kindly elaborate on "slightly".

Exactly. You'll see a small decrease in number of attacks (which at 26% is pretty much spot on where we want to be), and the large boosts in Ranged Power to compensate. The strategy of fishing for vorpals (similar to fishing for saving throw rolls of 1 to exaggerate the effectiveness of CC) will be slightly less effective while DPS will be close to live.

Sev~

[Caprice]

ok i still dont understand this and i dont see answer anywhere:

Divine Grace (Paladin)
Divine Grace now provides a maximum bonus equal to 2 + (Paladin level x 3).

does this mean that paladin will get that much save bonus just for levels, in effect circumventing charisma? if it is like that its insanely bad idea, i understand that there has to be a change to that feat, but it should be sometihng that would put a hard cap on charisma to saves based on number of paladin levels in general value of levels, a no charisma splash of 14 paladin will be getting 14 levels worth of levels to saves???
You still should need Charisma. The maximum bonus will be 2 + (Paladin level x 3). The actual bonus still will be determined by your CHA bonus. So a Sorceror 18/Paladin 2 with CHA 50 will drop to +8 from Divine Grace, because that is all that their 2 Paladin levels afford them. A pure Paladin 20 with CHA 50 will get all +20 from Divine Grace because 20 levels of Paladin gives a maximum of +61. However a pure Paladin with CHA 20 will only get +5, because that is all their CHA bonus grants.

[BigErkyKid]

I am not sure why you have that belief. We test end game characters in full end game gear on a variety of EDs both doing the Bruntsmash test and also grinding through our high end test kobolds. When we see videos we sometimes hunt down and make copies of those characters and use them to test DPS as well.

Sev~

We believe that because you passed some updates that presumably had been tested saying it was balanced and now you say it is not. So it is clear you didn't make the right tests, with the right characters or you made some other mistake. That's why there is a lot of skepticism regarding you "internal data".

Sorry if it sounds harsh but I prefer saying directly what I think. Can you tell us exactly what classes do you think would catch up with the proposed changes? Also, had you seriously not taken into account that swash weapons were not going to be equal anymore after the IC changes?

[Robai]

SOME. SOME TWF builds are overperforming. Not all.

Please find a way to fix the ones that are overperforming without hitting the rest.

Thank you.

^this


Two weapon fighting animations have been fixed so there is no longer a weird jump on the fourth animation. This has made the fourth attack slightly quicker.

Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Improved Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Greater Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.


The change to TWF feats compensates for the DPS increase from the animation change.

The only two weapon fighting build we changed is Paladin.

Sev~

Two things:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in order to do a 4th attack you have to be stationary, i.e. not moving (and thus getting harder hits in your Light armor, and thus spending more time on healing, and thus ending up doing less DPS)
Where are you doing tests? Damage vs those kobolds on Lam? Please be real, and do DPS tests elsewhere since you need to keep yourself alive too. For example, go to EH DoJ with your pure Tempest ranger and tell me your DPS result (and compare the DPS of Paladin in heavy armor and your squishy Tempest in Light armor, also there are lag spikes, that's why I recommend DoJ for real DPS tests, by DPS I mean average damage per second, which means the time spent in your soul stone should be included too).

[1Soulless1]

. (I've even been advised that my responding to this thread so much should help cement my position as most hated dev and I should shut up more. ;] May be true - I've often been told I talk too much. No Worries about me actually shutting up... I'm not very good at it.)


Oh no FoS has you beat by a mile... He messed with our shines don't mess with our shines ;) and the great ghostbaning never forget ^^


I do thank you guys for posting this 'update' for us to read over. I want to believe this dev team has a long term plan and vision for DDO, but so did all the other dev teams and mostly what it ended up being was a bunch of half assed fixes, more stuff broken and unfinished systems as they either where replaced or moved onto the next new thing ™.

Just remember one thing, nobody likes having their toys taken away from them (aka nerfs) even if its for the best. Players have been telling you in the official feed back threads about stuff and how it would interact and for the most part it was ignored ( not always but....). I find it's better to give a little and add to it then have something 'over preforming' and take away from it. Nobody likes a bait and switch, even if it isn't a bait and switch its what it feels like.

[Hobgoblin]

You still should need Charisma. The maximum bonus will be 2 + (Paladin level x 3). The actual bonus still will be determined by your CHA bonus. So a Sorceror 18/Paladin 2 with CHA 50 will drop to +8 from Divine Grace, because that is all that their 2 Paladin levels afford them. A pure Paladin 20 with CHA 50 will get all +20 from Divine Grace because 20 levels of Paladin gives a maximum of +61. However a pure Paladin with CHA 20 will only get +5, because that is all their CHA bonus grants.

i do have a question on this -

if you have a pally with cha 134(yes i know that is currently unreachable) - +62 mod - even a pure pally wouldnt get the full bonus. would destinies factor into this or is it hard coded?

so a say 4 pally splash in ld would have 2+ (4x3) = +14 max saves
would that same play splash in say dc have 2 + (10x3) = 32 max saves?

[Gratch]

I hope you realize that this is a triple nerf to the newly changed Tempest. First, changing crit range and melee power. Second, lower damage mitigation. And for builds that try to use divine grace for higher saves to adjust for the lower PRR and MRR (prior to change, now even lower) a nerf. And finally a nerf to manyshot that effects Tempest the most since it won't have much resources to invest in ranged and rely on the burst for additional DPS.


The crit range changes affect everyone. Though all Paly14 TWF'ers lose more on the offhand holy sword change.
The melee power is in theory mostly accounted for by an animation speedup for TWF.
Not sure of a lower damage mitigation change affecting only Tempest or only TWF.
The MRR was too high after the armor-up MRR changes. Took everyone from using evasion to everyone pushing to plate. And at cap almost everyone I knew went to the shadowplate. Of all the changes, this is probably the one most needed to rebalance the armor vs. evasion|saves pendulum.
The divine grace was a known incoming listed on the KNOWN ISSUES for over half a year. You can tell it was needed balance by the number of paly2 splashes across all nonpaladin builds on the forums and in the game. Though a cap of +8 for 2 paly levels could be discussed as too low.
Tempest with no ranged investment SHOULDN'T be as good a doubleshot/ranged focus character at many shot. Just because it mostly was before is not a justified reason to keep things that way. Manyshot will still be an excellent means for any normally melee character to get a good burst of damage done at range in a short amount of time.


-Gratch <- plays a tempest.

[PpalP]

Where are you doing tests? Damage vs those kobolds on Lam? Please be real, and do DPS tests elsewhere since you need to keep yourself alive too. For example, go to EH DoJ with your pure Tempest ranger and tell me your DPS result (and compare the DPS of Paladin in heavy armor and your squishy Tempest in Light armor, also there are lag spikes, that's why I recommend DoJ for real DPS tests, by DPS I mean average damage per second, which means the time spent in your soul stone should be included too).


This x2

[Mortas]

I've played a pali since day 1. I've spent years, Years, where they would not be accepted in groups because they were considered "The Gimp". Then coming back after years break and hey they don't suck so much anymore, then a few more improvements and now they are socially acceptable. I find nothing earth shattering OMG pali DPS everyone can pike now here. I still see barbs being the OMG DPS which is how it should be. I am very surprised they can self heal as much as they can, though.

Here is the balance part to stay on topic: The pali benefits are offset due with many things. An obvious one is being a feat starved class. Another is realistically needing the most of the basic stats to realize the class. Frankly, if DDO has improved the class to the point of there's talk of OP, I'm inclined to suggest pali players have earned it. Severlin said close to the same when announcing the PRR/MRR inclusions in Update 23 with phrasing to make Paladins more fun and competitive. Well, it worked - thanks !

I'd like to suggest it is not the pali but being able to multiclass is what has failed. To keep the paladin fun, I strongly suggest being allowed to keep the current Holy Sword/Improved Crit PRR/MRR advantages for full paladins via level/cap enhancements. This balances those players who stubbornly want a pure class even though it is significantly feat starved and one that needs multiple base stats spread out *unlike any other class in the game*. It is okay in a game to not have class equality. Not everyone wants to melee, nuke, plink, etc. It's why we play these types of games. We understand our rogue types will simply murder the opponent as long as they aren't seen. We are fine with that nebulous cloud of death approaching being electrocuted by the wiz instead of eating the fighter. Good stuff in variety. This balance everything pleasing everyone doesn't work and in the long run is very disappointing. No flavor...except chicken. Everything tasting like chicken sucks.

I'll bet a beverage of your choice, even with stapling current advantages to a pure class, you will not see a horde of pure paladins running around; it simply is not a play style for everyone. Going the level cap enhancement route still keeps options open for S & B style, TWF, etc.

After years of gimpness, I was happy to come back to the game to changes that made playing a paladin fun. The combat styles and armor improvements made a huge positive fun time impact for me and I'm sure others. I think you can work out the issues with multiclassed paladins with level restricted enhancements and possibly further balance being able to keep what some call over powered DPS by restricting the HS spell to religious favored weapons which makes a lot of thematic sense too. My guy has a few lives some decent raid equipment and I find EE a challenge; a fun challenge, not a walk in the park. I really hope my guy is not being sent back to gimpville. I'm not going to rage-quit but after a long time of -ick- way back, I'm not getting a snuggy feeling here.

Good luck with this.

[mole7777]

[LIST]
The MRR was too high after the armor-up MRR changes. Took everyone from using evasion to everyone pushing to plate. And at cap almost everyone I knew went to the shadowplate. Of all the changes, this is probably the one most needed to rebalance the armor vs. evasion|saves pendulum.
-Gratch <- plays a tempest.

However you don't want a pendulum, swinging it back the other way isn't the way to go. Classes that should wear heavy armour should do so because its the best option. The problem was letting anyone slap the heavy armour on and get the benefits. You don't slap on light armour and instantly get a massive dodge, you don't splash 2 rogue and get instantly to make all your reflex saves. The problem was all the rewards for no effort regardless of class, so of course classes that didn't have easy access to strong saves evasion and a good dodge are going to take the easy option.

I believe this proposed change is wrong because now the difference between light and heavy is too small and not enough to make up for the much higher dodge. When you then consider you will have the same MRR wearing light or heavy but you can have evasion with light where is the balance ?

[davmuzl]

I am looking forward to seeing how these changes are going to affect the game. Overall the changes look really good to me.

The crit changes are good, because it doesn't support mindless stacking as much.

I don't really know what to think about manyshot and 10k*. What I have to say on the topic is that I think it's bad when combined abilities allow burst DPS to go high enough to end big fights. When one character can deal 5 times as much damage as another, but only for 20% of the time (so the overall DPS stays the same), it is too much burst damage. Opting for high burst damage should mean sacrificing overall DPS.

I don't really like the changes to non-repeating crossbows. I feel like even if great crossbows are dealing more damage than repeaters it would often be better to go with a repeater, because of procs like deception.

I'm a bit sceptical about the tactics feats. It looks like a lot to me and I would rather see something like a tactical DC action boost or something that boosts the DCs while action boosts are active.
(suggestion for kensei: add enhancements that reduce the CDs on tactical feats, so they can stun as much as monks).

I am also a bit worried how the mrr changes might affect content that is already difficult in heavy armor(mainly thinking about abishai in new content here).

[patang01]

The crit range changes affects everyone. Though all Paly14 TWF'ers lose more on the offhand holy sword change.
The melee power is in theory mostly accounted for by an animation speedup for TWF.
Not sure of a lower damage mitigation change affecting only Tempest or only TWF.
The MRR was too high after the armor-up MRR changes. Took everyone from using evasion to everyone pushing to plate. And at cap almost everyone I knew went to the shadowplate. Of all the changes, this is probably the one most needed to rebalance the armor vs. evasion|saves pendulum.
The divine grace was a known incoming listed on the KNOWN ISSUES for over half a year. You can tell it was needed balance by the number of paly2 splashes across all nonpaladin builds on the forums and in the game. Though a cap of +8 for 2 paly levels could be discussed as too low.
Tempest with no ranged investment SHOULDN'T be as good a doubleshot/ranged focus character at many shot.


-Gratch <- plays a tempest.

You make a bunch of points that is irrelevant to the one I made. Specifically to the newly revamped tempest.

1. Irrelevant to the point I make about tempest.
2. In Theory.
3 and 4. Going from high to zero is less damage mitigation. I know how math works. It's irrelevant to the discussion whether or not something was too high - which is an assumption on those who claim it compared to others who don't exactly experienced that. But less is less. Arguing opinion about a fact is silly. And that it effects others is irrelevant to the question about tempest.
5. Yes - I am aware of the fact that the devs had been talking about changing divine grace. It's still factors into damage mitigation. Which is sorta what I'm talking about.
6. That's a nonsense argument. No it really is. We're now changing it from being based on 4 hits to some other formula. What is, is completely meaningless since we're changing how it always was. Considering that it used to be burst with 4 and now is much less, theoretically it can be increased through heavy investment in AA. In other words heavy investment in AA puts it back on par and perhaps even better while less investment makes it even less then before.
Your argument is that it should when it never was. That's an opinion based on an assumption we never had to deal with in the past.

Here's my simple argument that Turbine is not considering. The reason for armor up was to add diversity in melee. It accomplished that. Heavy tilt in a different direction (and anyone saying that these are tiny measured steps are lying to themselves) just means tilt in the other direction. If Turbine wanted to diversify the spectrum they would slap certain features so absolute. I for example will simply figure that most of my tempest investment in equipment such as khopeshes to be wasted and move towards AA instead. That is in particular since so much of the damage mitigation is getting hurt. Regardless if MRR was too much in your opinion or that divine grace was on the chopping block. These two facts does decrease survivability. And as such I will go ranged instead. That is what most players will do.
Why suffer more incoming damage with less or static output and then having to invest more into harder to slot gear or dilute melee DPS with ranged just to get slightly on par with what the burst damage was before, when you can just go full tilt in the direction of less pain.

To pretend that it won't strike the opposite way now is tomfoolery. It will happen. I know already that outside for example divine crusader a tempest ranger takes lots of spike damage. Less HP, less damage mitigation. That's true in Legendary and Fury.

It's both easier and smarter considering so many negative effects to go full tilt AA. Ranged and evasion. Drop strength and go full tilt on dex, con and wis instead.

[nibel]

~ Do we want to legitimize Fury Eternal's gain of Adrenaline while using missile weapons, or do we want to fix that bug?

With the manyshot nerf, I don't mind legitimizing its use. Save effort from both sides.

With old Manyshot, I was always advocating for fixing this bug, but that was because manyshotting was very good for fishing vorpals. Now it will be no different than a TWF melee on Fury.

[Ewynn]

Sev and the Development team,

I love that Turbine is investing in updating the game and working to keep balance in the game. I'm looking forward to seeing how we will overcome the new challenges with our builds, and in our cooperation and tactics too.

Keep up your hard work and don't let the turkeys get you down, it's easy to criticize it's hard to create.

+1

[dunklezhan]

Exactly. You'll see a small decrease in number of attacks (which at 26% is pretty much spot on where we want to be), and the large boosts in Ranged Power to compensate. The strategy of fishing for vorpals (similar to fishing for saving throw rolls of 1 to exaggerate the effectiveness of CC) will be slightly less effective while DPS will be close to live.

Sev~

It does feel like I will have far less viable diversity of weapon's worth carrying around now though. My situational lootgen weapons (banishers etc) are still good, but are they as good as that higher base damage bow with all that extra ranged power that's now been added? Probably not. Why would I waste the inventory space on situational weaponsif more base damage is always better whether manyshotting or not?

I like having utility options. Please do try to make sure all those on crit, on vorpal and % chance proc effects you put on our bows are not just there to make us feel sad that we are immediately vendor trashing them. Its not "fishing for vorpals" to simply want to get good use from the gear you've looted. Change the gear if you're not happy with those procs, not the playstyle.

NB - I'm not claiming my above worries as fact. Need to see the changes in action. The above is just a concern I have.

[IronClan]

Does increasing DPS automatically enhance the game experience?

Every one of these questions is about finding the right spot across a gray scale. Getting the exact right answer is always going to be quite difficult. Getting a group of people (developers, players, both) to agree on the exact right answer verges on impossible, so we can only do the best we can.

Does lowering the amount of crits and making 9000hp mobs take longer to saw down like trees enhance the game experience?

I kinda liked DDO how it's been for most of the last 5 years and don't want slower paced combat and less crits; I especially don't want this just because someone came in an made some clunky and not very well thought out changes.

Across a grey scale?

You mean like hacking out every point of MRR from armor with a big butchers cleaver?

Nuanced change guys.. I hope my sarcasm isn't too subtle...

[Drfirewater79]

So you are nerfing alot of warlock abilities but not eldritch wave which is the highest burst dps in all the trees. Everyone will now be running tier 5 souleater - why run anything else.

Not to mention Warlock dps is too high at heroic levels and by level 28 it is simply on par with paladin, barbarian and others. What you are doing is making a global fix to a heroic problem - I don't get it.

The divine grace change is as bad now as it was when originally proposed. You are making it so that being a high level paladin is the only way to get good saves. You are not following through on your previous statement that you were going to offer save bonuses for non-paladins that didn't stack with divine grace so good saves would be possible without being a paladin.

Alot of these change demonstrate a lack of understanding of what makes FOTM builds powerful. For the most part these changes make me want to take a break from the game. The whole balance attempts seem like a game of whack a mole.


I dont really understand any of it personally... i have a decent geared caster dps (well over caps before changes) warlock who is using the old one and chain as my main attacks with soul eater 5 and all the eldritch boosts from the other trees. My average single hit damage is about 345 total damage (because extra elemental damages do not work with current attacks) highest crit i have seen so far is 700. My barbarian who is only lvl 25 and is well under-geared average hit is 400 and with abilities and trees highest crit so far has been 4000 plus when i have my destiny proc going i am doing that 4000 damage every few hits for 30 seconds (which is as long as most boss fights outside of raids). My Fighter twf is similar not as high crit hits usually between 600 and 700 crits and average damage per hit is 250. Artificer at lvl 20 is doing roughly the same damage .. plus spells do alot more and increase damage of my lighting spells and weapons. I know before i TRed my rouge it was doing that much easily in sneak attack damage sometimes more depending on build and gear at the time.

So i really dont get why they where nerfed at all. The only problem with warlocks as they where is that sorcs and wizards do not have a basic attack like eldritch that doesn't cost SP. I have always been against dps nerfs over properly balancing other classes ... if one class is weaker then boost it dont nerf all the others. This is why MMOs can never effectively balance their games ... dont nerf just increase the challenge in new content and levels and slightly boost classes to bring them closer into balance.

[Delacroix21]

Any time we've tried to do a partial update to shore up a particular tree or class to give them some relief until their full pass we've had negative player feedback on those efforts.

Sev~

Sev ordinarily I would agree with you on this, but when it comes to unarmed I know this will not be the case. We are not talking about something that has been broken for a few months, but rather years. Also unarmed dps isn't slightly behind, its less then half other melee. Add this change and say out right that it is only a temporary change until the monk pass: make base unarmed die go from 1d6 to 2d6, with shintao tier 5 becoming 2d8 base.


Unarmed monks have suffered long enough, and there is a large portion of the player base very upset is has been left this way for so long. Please don't make us wait even longer to finally have a viable playstyle. It would be so easy to code my suggestion. Do the right thing Sev :).

[Bennum]

You make a bunch of points that is irrelevant to the one I made. Specifically to the newly revamped tempest.

1. Irrelevant to the point I make about tempest.
2. In Theory.
3 and 4. Going from high to zero is less damage mitigation. I know how math works. It's irrelevant to the discussion whether or not something was too high - which is an assumption on those who claim it compared to others who don't exactly experienced that. But less is less. Arguing opinion about a fact is silly. And that it effects others is irrelevant to the question about tempest.
5. Yes - I am aware of the fact that the devs had been talking about changing divine grace. It's still factors into damage mitigation. Which is sorta what I'm talking about.
6. That's a nonsense argument. No it really is. We're now changing it from being based on 4 hits to some other formula. What is, is completely meaningless since we're changing how it always was. Considering that it used to be burst with 4 and now is much less, theoretically it can be increased through heavy investment in AA. In other words heavy investment in AA puts it back on par and perhaps even better while less investment makes it even less then before.
Your argument is that it should when it never was. That's an opinion based on an assumption we never had to deal with in the past.

Here's my simple argument that Turbine is not considering. The reason for armor up was to add diversity in melee. It accomplished that. Heavy tilt in a different direction (and anyone saying that these are tiny measured steps are lying to themselves) just means tilt in the other direction. If Turbine wanted to diversify the spectrum they would slap certain features so absolute. I for example will simply figure that most of my tempest investment in equipment such as khopeshes to be wasted and move towards AA instead. That is in particular since so much of the damage mitigation is getting hurt. Regardless if MRR was too much in your opinion or that divine grace was on the chopping block. These two facts does decrease survivability. And as such I will go ranged instead. That is what most players will do.
Why suffer more incoming damage with less or static output and then having to invest more into harder to slot gear or dilute melee DPS with ranged just to get slightly on par with what the burst damage was before, when you can just go full tilt in the direction of less pain.

To pretend that it won't strike the opposite way now is tomfoolery. It will happen. I know already that outside for example divine crusader a tempest ranger takes lots of spike damage. Less HP, less damage mitigation. That's true in Legendary and Fury.

It's both easier and smarter considering so many negative effects to go full tilt AA. Ranged and evasion. Drop strength and go full tilt on dex, con and wis instead.

This ^ I would +1 you if I didn't exhaust my resources already on the others fighting against this. To Tempests bows will now be worthless, this change makes me want to destroy my GS bows and i mean destroy not reconstruct (I don't have the ingredient for that)

[slarden]

Another perspective would be to flip each of these: Does adding PRR/MRR to all armor automatically make DDO better or "increase options"? If barbarians didn't take damage and never needed healing would it be a better game? Does increasing DPS automatically enhance the game experience?

Every one of these questions is about finding the right spot across a gray scale. Getting the exact right answer is always going to be quite difficult. Getting a group of people (developers, players, both) to agree on the exact right answer verges on impossible, so we can only do the best we can.

If having 10 MRR on light armor, 20 MRR on medium armor and 30 MRR on heavy armor is too powerful, why did you add 25 stacking MRR to the mysterious remnant cloak?

These are the type of decisions that boggle my mind. it's ok to add stacking 25 MRR to a cloak, but on armor it's way too powerful.

From my perspective things seem very chaotic and haphazard.

[Bennum]

I dont really understand any of it personally... i have a decent geared caster dps (well over caps before changes) warlock who is using the old one and chain as my main attacks with soul eater 5 and all the eldritch boosts from the other trees. My average single hit damage is about 345 total damage (because extra elemental damages do not work with current attacks) highest crit i have seen so far is 700. My barbarian who is only lvl 25 and is well under-geared average hit is 400 and with abilities and trees highest crit so far has been 4000 plus when i have my destiny proc going i am doing that 4000 damage every few hits for 30 seconds (which is as long as most boss fights outside of raids). My Fighter twf is similar not as high crit hits usually between 600 and 700 crits and average damage per hit is 250. Artificer at lvl 20 is doing roughly the same damage .. plus spells do alot more and increase damage of my lighting spells and weapons. I know before i TRed my rouge it was doing that much easily in sneak attack damage sometimes more depending on build and gear at the time.

So i really dont get why they where nerfed at all. The only problem with warlocks as they where is that sorcs and wizards do not have a basic attack like eldritch that doesn't cost SP. I have always been against dps nerfs over properly balancing other classes ... if one class is weaker then boost it dont nerf all the others. This is why MMOs can never effectively balance their games ... dont nerf just increase the challenge in new content and levels and slightly boost classes to bring them closer into balance.

I would actually be behind adding cantrips to our shelved caster classes such as clerics, sorcs, and wizzies that scale like eldritch blasts. I feel this change would go a long way towards bringing casters back into playability and putting the warlock in scale. Wizards and Sorcs could choose elements or force, and Clerics could get light or even posistive (healing blasts, what fun) or negative energy blasts. I use the word blasts lightly obviously warlocks should still be best at it but giving then a free ranged attack as well would go miles towards helping them out.

[slarden]

I dont really understand any of it personally... i have a decent geared caster dps (well over caps before changes) warlock who is using the old one and chain as my main attacks with soul eater 5 and all the eldritch boosts from the other trees. My average single hit damage is about 345 total damage (because extra elemental damages do not work with current attacks) highest crit i have seen so far is 700. My barbarian who is only lvl 25 and is well under-geared average hit is 400 and with abilities and trees highest crit so far has been 4000 plus when i have my destiny proc going i am doing that 4000 damage every few hits for 30 seconds (which is as long as most boss fights outside of raids). My Fighter twf is similar not as high crit hits usually between 600 and 700 crits and average damage per hit is 250. Artificer at lvl 20 is doing roughly the same damage .. plus spells do alot more and increase damage of my lighting spells and weapons. I know before i TRed my rouge it was doing that much easily in sneak attack damage sometimes more depending on build and gear at the time.

So i really dont get why they where nerfed at all. The only problem with warlocks as they where is that sorcs and wizards do not have a basic attack like eldritch that doesn't cost SP. I have always been against dps nerfs over properly balancing other classes ... if one class is weaker then boost it dont nerf all the others. This is why MMOs can never effectively balance their games ... dont nerf just increase the challenge in new content and levels and slightly boost classes to bring them closer into balance.

Main thing is this. A few haters don't like warlock being a "pay" class and don't even play warlock have been asking for nerfs since day 1.

Warlocks are insanely overpowered at heroic levels - that is a problem and devs won't address JUST that. It's an "A" build at level 28, but truth is my tempest which is also an "A" build at 28 can take down a boss in less than half the time. My warlock has better aoe and cc, but isn't that how the classes are designed? I think a barbarian aoe is roughly equal to a warlock aoe, but without the cc so I can sort of accept nerf, but instead of knocking off ES completely why not give things a 5% nerf across the board instead of making Tier 5 Souleater Tainted Scholar capstone the best warlock build. Prior to this change there were 5-6 solid warlock builds and after this change there wiil be 1 good build because eldritch wave which is already the best burst dps is untouched while other things get a 15-17% dps nerf.

The ES hate is caused by people running around with max con 200+ PRR 2000+ HP in unyielding and they have maybe 80% dps or less of a good warlocks dps but because they can survive anything people hate it. It has nothing to do with warlock dps.

[FlaviusMaximus]

Sooo many factors in DPS testing. Are we comparing how long it takes characters to kill one solitary enemy, a pack in close proximity, or clear a dungeon (and if so, what type of dungeon), is the character using Mortal Fear, has the character invested heavily in class granted on hit magical damage (such as light damage from KOTC) or an ability like Dance of Death, and the list goes on. Statistics like "x% more damage than other fighting styles" need to be accompanied by specifics about the testing scenario because the factors matter.

[Dalnarac]

On two weapon fighting:

As an example, we don't want to remove a two weapon fighting option for Paladin, but we also don't think it should be doing 30-40% more damage than other styles either.

Sev~

I have a two weapon fighting pally/rogue 18/2 Dwarf with the Constitution for damage on war hammers. I just got him to lvl 28. He is pretty fun to play currently. I also have a two weapon fighting ranger/rogue 18/2 Drow who has been lvl 28 for a while. Scimatars with dex damage. My ranger does noticeable more damage than my pally. Not insanely higher but 20 or 30 more damage per hit. They both equip almost the same gear. But being a tempest ranger with Many Cuts and Dance of Death, I can bring up that damage even more. It is a nice increase but not insane either. My pally gets the cleaves of course which are fun.

I want to say that I don't understand why you would take away the benefit of holy sword to my pally if my ranger, who does not have holy sword, does more damage already. But then on top of that, all my two weapon feats will not increase my damage any more? I don't see myself even remotely as a min/max type player but play character that sound interesting and fun to me. And now my light armor characters are going to take more damage during the fight which they will not kill as quick as they use to?

My 28 dwarven axe and shield dwarf pally is a blast to play. Full plate and he is currently lvl 9 on his 3rd life. Not once have a played him and thought he should have the dps of my duel wielders. Since holy sword became useful, I haven't complained about his dps at all. It might take him a bit longer to kill but he will kill them without having to run away and heal. He is a lot more group worthy and does quite well at keeping aggro off squishy casters. I also have a blade master pally carrying a great sword. Fun and awesome dps but the whole robot thing isn't really for me so he has been hanging at lvl 20 for a long time.

My first character was a lvl 20 fighter many years ago. He was ok to level but his lack of healing made him not much fun. He was full plate and sword and board. In fact, that character is my 18/2 ranger/rogue now. I know fighters don't have and shouldn't have a lay on hands ability but maybe something along the lines of an enhancement or feat that makes healing potions heal for 300%? That would get me interested in a fighter again. But killing two weapon fighting is not going to make me interested in playing anything.

Without pvp I have to ask what this big deal is about balance? I am well aware casters do a ton of damage more than melee. But that's the great thing about it. Variety. If all characters types equaled the same damage/survivability then why would I create a different character ever?

[Runerock]

I dislike the armor changes and the downgrading of named weapons saddens me. I lave melee and you are making it more and more difficult to effectively splash melee into builds as I try to go for completionist.

[Mirta]

Does lowering the amount of crits and making 9000hp mobs take longer to saw down like trees enhance the game experience?

I kinda liked DDO how it's been for most of the last 5 years and don't want slower paced combat and less crits; I especially don't want this just because someone came in an made some clunky and not very well thought out changes.

Agreed. Taking longer to mow down mobs isn't adding much value to the game. Slow paced content has never been my favorite. I always loved to zerg through stuff, but they pointlessly slow us down and make the grind worse.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but in order to do a 4th attack you have to be stationary, i.e. not moving (and thus getting harder hits in your Light armor, and thus spending more time on healing, and thus ending up doing less DPS)
Where are you doing tests? Damage vs those kobolds on Lam? Please be real, and do DPS tests elsewhere since you need to keep yourself alive too. For example, go to EH DoJ with your pure Tempest ranger and tell me your DPS result (and compare the DPS of Paladin in heavy armor and your squishy Tempest in Light armor, also there are lag spikes, that's why I recommend DoJ for real DPS tests, by DPS I mean average damage per second, which means the time spent in your soul stone should be included too).


I don't know that I ever stand still long enough to get all the attacks. Good point. And as for testing in real world situations? Yes, please. Testing on kobolds under perfect conditions is very unrealistic.

[patang01]

I dont really understand any of it personally... i have a decent geared caster dps (well over caps before changes) warlock who is using the old one and chain as my main attacks with soul eater 5 and all the eldritch boosts from the other trees. My average single hit damage is about 345 total damage (because extra elemental damages do not work with current attacks) highest crit i have seen so far is 700. My barbarian who is only lvl 25 and is well under-geared average hit is 400 and with abilities and trees highest crit so far has been 4000 plus when i have my destiny proc going i am doing that 4000 damage every few hits for 30 seconds (which is as long as most boss fights outside of raids). My Fighter twf is similar not as high crit hits usually between 600 and 700 crits and average damage per hit is 250. Artificer at lvl 20 is doing roughly the same damage .. plus spells do alot more and increase damage of my lighting spells and weapons. I know before i TRed my rouge it was doing that much easily in sneak attack damage sometimes more depending on build and gear at the time.

So i really dont get why they where nerfed at all. The only problem with warlocks as they where is that sorcs and wizards do not have a basic attack like eldritch that doesn't cost SP. I have always been against dps nerfs over properly balancing other classes ... if one class is weaker then boost it dont nerf all the others. This is why MMOs can never effectively balance their games ... dont nerf just increase the challenge in new content and levels and slightly boost classes to bring them closer into balance.

And not to mention less diversity in spells, less opportunity to specialize in specific spells and overall less spike damage. My Shiradi savant was putting out reliable 3-5k easy where as most of the time I run backwards firing slowly against most mobs.

The main difference is resource use, it's definitely not a DPS leader.

[Talon_Dragonsbane]

Will the PRR/MRR changes affect the below shield ability?

Characters who are proficient with shields can now use larger shields for defense against magical attacks that would normally require a Reflex Saving Throw. Instead of using your Reflex Saving Throw to mitigate the damage, you can deflect the damage off of your shield. Physical and Magical Resistance Rating multipliers against magical attacks that normally allow a Reflex Saving Throw are as follows: ? Buckler: No additional mitigation
? Light Shield: No additional Mitigation
? Heavy Shield: 2.0
? Tower Shield: 2.0

I conclude that this means that shield users in heavy armor loses 24PRR and 60MRR against these magical attacks. Was this intended?

[EllisDee37]

our live builds using two weapon fighting are testing really high. I'll be honest, it concerns us that there seems to be a large disconnect on what we are seeing in testing and the players perception on two weapon fighting. We are seeing two weapon fighting build posting numbers that are 30-40% higher than builds that use two handed weapons and single weapon fighting. These builds can still generate a lot of AoE through cleaves and cleave replacements. Although the AoE of two weapon fight would be behind two handed fighting, it isn't far enough behind to warrant such a large damage differential.It might go a long way toward bridging the gap if you guys would post some testing videos on youtube (or wherever) so we (the players) could identify where the disconnect is.

[HatsuharuZ]

Any time we've tried to do a partial update to shore up a particular tree or class to give them some relief until their full pass we've had negative player feedback on those efforts.

Sev~

Are you referring to that time when Nature's Warrior gained some buffs to it's core abilities and capstone? I think some of the negative feedback might have been due to the fact that the changes did not address player concerns regarding animal form-using druids.

[EllisDee37]

~ The changes to Improved Critical do mess up the balance for Assassins between kukri and daggers, and for Swashbucklers who can take enhancements to normalize weapon types. We are going to implement additional changes so that characters who have the Improved Critical feat will gain extra threat range for under performing weapons to maintain the weapon balance you have live using these builds.Also staff builds...


~ We have been reading with interest the concerns with named weapons that have increased threat ranges built in and how they interact with Improved Critical. This interaction is part of the design, as these threat ranges provided too much benefit previously. The fact that some of these weapons with lower level requirements were better than end game weapons highlights the problem fairly well....but it sounds like you want to heavily nerf staff builds, so, good job?

[crazycaren]

So with pally AAs and monkcher nerfs everyone has to use repeating heavy cross bows now? Awesome, just gimme a sec while I turn off my combat sounds.

[Ovrad]

No. We will be compensating monks when we have a chance to go through the handwrap tech.

Sev~

Any rough estimate of when will that be?

It seems that almost every update makes monks a little more "under-performing". Granted the nerf to armors does help a bit close the gap, but monk dodge (and DPS) is still incredibly weaker.

[elvesunited]

Once of the most frustrating things in DDO is to go through a quest doing everything right, and then near the end get whacked by some enemy spellcaster who one shots you with a maximized damage spell. It got even worse in some of the raids. I really thought that MRR in armor was an attempt to widen the field. To provide something to help keep low hp builds without evasion viable. But I guess I was wrong for what was giveth can be taken away. I just don't get it. This nerfs the weaker builds harder than it does the more powerful ones.

Anyway this is how my stable of toons is looking after the balance pass: ( if my math is correct )

Purple Dragon Knight 18th Warlock / 1st fighter / 1st barbarian ( Con maxed, heavy armor, tower shield enlightened spirit Tank )
-30 MRR -13 PRR reduction in damage from Eldritch Burst(-17%), Spirit Blast(-17%), Consume(-17%), Stricken(-17%), Aura(-14%)
Verdict: Well the reduced damage was expected. The PPR and MMR were not but as those numbers are already high he can take it.
================================================== =======
Drow 18th Artificer / 2nd Monk ( Int maxed Evasion Artificer battle engineer )
-10 MRR -3 PRR
Verdict: Probably the least hurt. Helps that Needle increases the critical multiplier instead of range.
================================================== =======
Sun Elf 17th wizard / 2nd favored / 1st cleric ( int maxed non-undead harper evocation archmage armored mage )
-30 MRR -23 PRR
Verdict: That hurt! My squishy wiz just got a lot more squishier and lot less viable. Have to wonder if the heavy armor is even worth it anymore. This I believe is the closest I am to a build kill.
================================================== =======
Half-Elf 18th Paladin / 2nd Fighter ( str maxed sword and shield / half-elf / Paladin )
-30 MRR -12 PRR -1 critical range Oathblade
Verdict: Reliance on Oathblade shows just how powerful crit ranges are. Glad to hear that the outright kill of the archer paladin build was reversed.
================================================== =======
Elf 11th Ranger / 6th monk / 3rd Favored ( Dex Maxed Monkcher free feat monger )
Manyshot reduced from +300% doubleshot for 20 seconds to +95 Ranged Power / +95% Doubleshot for 20 seconds
Thousand star reduced from roughly +78% doubleshot for 30 seconds to +34 Ranged power/+33% Doubleshot for 30 seconds
Arcane archer changes coming, looks like slay arrow will be nerfed but others may gain.
-1 Critical range pinion. Likely changes to Fury of the Wild.
Verdict: Took the biggest hits of all but probably still viable. Play testing will tell.
================================================== =========
Half-elf 1st rogue / 4th fighter / 15th druid ( Str maxed stalwart defender beast warrior harper wolf )
-30 MRR -17 PRR -1 Critical Range(?)
Verdict: Far too feat starved to take advantage of new fighter feats. As he uses critical hits to generate a constant stream of temp sp this does hurt the puppy.
================================================== ==============
Drow 20th bard ( Char maxed SWashbuckler / Spellsinger using Throwing axe )
-10 MRR -2 PRR -2 points of critical range - OUCH!
Verdict: Once again punished for going in an unusual direction. Can't it be changed so improved critical if swashbuckling weapon adds +3 Critical range regardless of weapon?
================================================== ================
Sun Elf 20th level favored soul ( Wis maxed angel of vengeance / warpriest )
-20 MRR -8 PRR
Verdict: not that badly hurt though will miss the MRR.

[mons]

Will there be an Artificer pass/new enhancement tree/improvements to the class specifically any time soon™. Theres been alot of melee love and rogue love and even some ranges love but nothing Artificer exclusive.

[losian2]

We believe that because you passed some updates that presumably had been tested saying it was balanced and now you say it is not. So it is clear you didn't make the right tests, with the right characters or you made some other mistake. That's why there is a lot of skepticism regarding you "internal data".

...

No dev team anywhere will ever release an update every in any game that will be considered by players to be resoundingly and decidedly "balanced" across the boards. Balance is all but a four letter word, it's a near unattainable idea, because it varies so much for each player and dev.

Be constructive. Ask for some of the builds/etc. used, don't just be like "yeah right lol your internel tests are worthless." Be constructive, people. Just naysaying and bickering doesn't help improve anything.

[RapkintheRanger]

~ Since Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars have a reduced rate of fire, fishing for Mortal Fear and similar procs will be slightly less effective. We understand this and designed with this in mind.

~ With the bug in certain Fury of the Wild enhancements, Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars can be used to get back uses of Adrenaline. With the new reduced rate of fire of Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars, utilizing this bug will be slightly less effective. We understand and have designed around this. We want to either legitimize this build by changing the wording on Fury Eternal so it officially supports ranged attacks or fix the bug, and we are looking forward to feedback on this from Lamannia.


~ Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars still provide a massive burst of damage; we really don't think these builds will lose their burst feel when these abilities provide an additional 200-300% damage increase depending on gearing.

***


~ Do we want to legitimize Fury Eternal's gain of Adrenaline while using missile weapons, or do we want to fix that bug?

Sev~


Once upon a time I was a pure ranger and i built for doubleshot. People hated monkchers becasue and so a penalty was designed and placed on many shot making rangers even less effective. As a result i had to switch to playing a monkcher to try and make up for it as 10K mitigates against the nerf to rangers.

Since ranged classes were not very effective in epic content, i switched to fury of the wild to get some burst DPS and at least be useful some times. I am not happy to see burst DPS (the only good thing about a ranger) potentially nerfed.

And i resent being told that Eternal Fury is a bug. Previously we were told it was WAI. It has been a part of the game for years. And i am perplexed that both my ranger and my monkcher will potentially get nerfed again by removing burst DPS even further... (my other character is a warlock who looks in for nerfing as well)

If you don't like ranged classes, just take the bows out of the game and be done with it.

I need DPS to get through the stupid amount of HP that surrounds me. I don't enjoy spending 10 min plucking off 900 arrows to whittle down some mob.....

[Unsmitten]

Sev or Varg, could you explain how doubleshot works on repeaters? My understanding was that each volley(3 bolts) could get 1 extra bolt(4 total) Is that correct?


Looking for a response on how it works now, and how it will work after the balance.





On a side note, Shadowdancer is in dire need of attention, it should have been looked at with the rogue update...

[PermaBanned]

~ The changes to Improved Critical do mess up the balance for Assassins between kukri and daggers, and for Swashbucklers who can take enhancements to normalize weapon types. We are going to implement additional changes so that characters who have the Improved Critical feat will gain extra threat range for under performing weapons to maintain the weapon balance you have live using these builds.Uh-huh. When? Is this a reaction to feedback, or part of the initial plan? If the latter, why not include them in the "balance" patch?


~ With the bug in certain Fury of the Wild enhancements, Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars can be used to get back uses of Adrenaline. With the new reduced rate of fire of Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars, utilizing this bug will be slightly less effective. We understand and have designed around this. We want to either legitimize this build by changing the wording on Fury Eternal so it officially supports ranged attacks or fix the bug, and we are looking forward to feedback on this from Lamannia.

~ Do we want to legitimize Fury Eternal's gain of Adrenaline while using missile weapons, or do we want to fix that bug?Are you serious? This "bug" has been around since MotU launched, and now you're thinking of finally getting around to fixing it? No, just change the text - or don't. It's not like Fury/Archer functionality is a secret. How about instead you fix the Shiradi stuff to be as interesting for Ranged builds as it is for casters? Oh, nvm that ship just sailed since opportunities to proc things is a key player in Rainbow/Double Rainbow and you're reducing those {opportunities for Ranged characters to proc things} anyway. Oh well, the Missle Spammer destiny it shall remain.


~ It's not that we mind two weapon fighting Paladins doing decent DPS, or two weapon barbarians doing decent DPS, but these builds should not be outperforming builds based on other styles by 40% or higher.They should be doing DPS balanced by their survivability - a relationship all y'all have (I can only assume) intentionally ignored in all your designs & passes thus far. I'd agree though that if a TWF pally is doing 40% more DPS than a THF pally then something is probably off - is this the 40% comparison you're making?


~ We will be watching Vanguard Paladin builds to make sure they are still fun and competitive after the changes.Given that Large & Tower shields are retaining their MRR advantage (doubling vs Reflex save based magical damage sources) Vangaurd survivability just got better compared to other non-shield using characters. Too bad "nobody" will care about that and most of the feedback you get will be about how much more slowly they can kill a kobold/Bruntsmash/training dummy.


~ We think there has been a lot of good discussion in particular on MRR, armor, and whether these changes will put us back into a state where everyone feel compelled to take Evasion. We have read suggestions that some smaller amount of MRR might be added back to armors and we've been looking at that option. I just wanted to point out the reductions do not put us back to pre Armor Up balance. The PRR formula is more generous, and the PRR offered by armor is still higher. Heavy armor mitigates a lot more damage than before Armor Up. In addition, there are many sources of MRR, including gear, that simply did not exist before, including enhancements that only work with medium or heavy armors. Armored characters are still in much better shape than in the past, which is why we'd like to see this on Lamannia.Yes, Heavy & Medium will still provide a bit more PRR than Light armor - but will that bit be enough to be a value comparison vs the high Dodge (& likely Evasion)? I don't think Lama will be up long enough before this goes live to answer that. Even without testing, looking at armor contributions is now discouraging. A lvl 28 Rogue without Tensor's gets 6 PRR from Light Armor (9 w/Tensor's) while a lvl 28 {anyone with proficiency} gets 24 (28 w/Tensor's) PRR from Heavy Armor. That 22 point difference may be of consequence to a first lifer with no Sheltering gear, but a lot of folks with PRR PLs and Sheltering gear are likely going to consider a high Dodge rating (and likely Evasion too) as superior to 22 PRR.


~ We have been reading with interest the concerns with named weapons that have increased threat ranges built in and how they interact with Improved Critical. This interaction is part of the design, as these threat ranges provided too much benefit previously. The fact that some of these weapons with lower level requirements were better than end game weapons highlights the problem fairly well.Bull spit. "Provided too much benefit previously..." my eye, some of those have been in the game for 3,4,7 or more years. I remember during the Pally pass you didn't know how IC worked in DDO (doubling all mods) vs how it works in PnP (doubling just the weapon's Crit range - how it should be working in DDO), but I don't for a minute believe every loot Dev that designed a named weapon with a special Crit range was equally... uninformed. It wasn't IC that made those lower level weapons so good, it was the combination of how Destiny abilities and the revamped class's bonuses interacted with eachother that did that. IC + SoS, Assassin's Blade and the rest have been working as designed and intended for (in some cases many) years, and you're directly nerfing those weapon's design intentions because of class revamps - any other spin you put on it just polishing a turd.


~ Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars still provide a massive burst of damage; we really don't think these builds will lose their burst feel when these abilities provide an additional 200-300% damage increase depending on gearing.Is the reduced contribution on IC part of that 200-300%, or after the IC nerf will that percentage drop some? And considering how Manyshot + Slayer Arrow + Fury interacted, I'm guessing this 200-300% "increase" is still a significant decrease from what's available on live now.

***

Really, a general balance pass has been needed; and yes that general balance pass required a few nerfs here & there as well as bug fixes (ie getting BaB contribution to PRR w/o proficiency). But what you've got going here is the same ol' same ol' Turbine habit of using a chainsaw where a scalpel would've been more appropriate. I'm not part of the supposed mass exodus some forumites these changes will cause, but these kinds of things are why 2ish years ago I had no interest in a different game where as now I'm just waiting for one - and really, a lot of the last two years changes (and several on the forseeable horizon) are only making it easier for some other game to take the title of "better than DDO." What a shame...

[Retrodark]

I searched through the entire thread and saw many people ask about broken wolves and trees and also how imp crit blunt will affect them, based on new mechanics. I didn't see a single response on these matters from any devs. I think if you are literally going to break many builds by making these "balancing" changes, you should really consider fixing those that are not WAI balance issues first. Because breaking legit builds for what you consider "balancing" is really not fair. These unbalanced builds have gone unscathed for over a year now.

[nibel]

Sev or Varg, could you explain how doubleshot works on repeaters? My understanding was that each volley(3 bolts) could get 1 extra bolt(4 total) Is that correct?

Looking for a response on how it works now, and how it will work after the balance.

Each individual bolt have a chance to doubleshot. Currently, it uses your full doubleshot value for each bolt, and after the update it will be fixed to work as intended, and thus each bolt will use only one third of your doubleshot value. In general, you can consider that your doubleshot value is per volley, but it will be still possible to make a six-shot volley using a repeater.

[Thar]

The crit range changes affect everyone. Though all Paly14 TWF'ers lose more on the offhand holy sword change.
The melee power is in theory mostly accounted for by an animation speedup for TWF.

Tempest with no ranged investment SHOULDN'T be as good a doubleshot/ranged focus character at many shot. Just because it mostly was before is not a justified reason to keep things that way. Manyshot will still be an excellent means for any normally melee character to get a good burst of damage done at range in a short amount of time.


-Gratch <- plays a tempest.

crit change impact twf characters twice as much as other styles.

animation speedup is unseen at this point. will it need to be stationary or will it turn to twitch skills to get better results from attacks 1-3. is the hitbox any better? and is 6% really worth taking away?

why shouldn't a 20 RANGER be good with a bow too just because they primarily focus in melee? Drizzit is just as dangerous with a bow as scimitar? yes an over hyped fantasy example but still applicable.

[justagame]

A number of these changes, especially the armor one, once again feel like you took the whole bottle of aspirin, when a single pill would have done the trick.

That's what's frustrating. Not that there are adjustments from time to time; it's that instead of minor adjustments, they feel like a real whallop to some builds, not to mention quite a few named weapons.

I wouldn't base any design decisions on my personal preferences. I'm admittedly not your target audience anymore. RL circumstances have left me with less and less playing time, and I've been having a hard time finding time to log on lately. However, the prospect of now having to use that limited time to redo my 2 main characters just makes it even less likely that I'll make the effort. I also know that whatever I change to, by the time I log enough playing hours to get there, THAT will likely be nerfed as well. And all too often, you guys don't nerf things from "great" to "almost as great". They get nerfed from "great" right to subpar.

[Axeyu]

crit change impact twf characters twice as much as other styles.

What?

[Malusny]

Our thoughts on Holy Sword:

Holy Sword was very strong when it first appeared. Over time, however, it's relative power has been blunted by additional class passes that offer alternate ways to gain those competence based critical bonuses. As such we've introduced alternate options to the ever present 14 Paladin version of builds. As we continue our class passes we feel that Holy Sword will remain a strong option, but not the only option.

This is why Holy Sword didn't see as much of a change as people might have been expecting. We really hit two weapon fighting builds as they were putting out a lot of DPS for the mitigation provided by Paladin.

Our thought behind removing a missile weapon version was feedback that many of the best missile weapon options were actually better in the 14 Paladin variant. This concerned us, and we addressed it early.

Upon reading feedback from players and re-examining our builds, we are making Holy Sword once again affect missile weapons. No, we don't want 14 Paladin missile weapon builds to be the best missile option. The removal of missile weapons from Holy Sword, however, has more ramifications that most of the other changes in this balance pass as it negates a design goal for a specific kind of build. The other changes have statistical changes, but the design intent for other builds is still intact and the builds play the same. This particular aspect of Holy Sword we feel goes beyond statistical change; removing the missile option actually messes up a design intent for a specific build.

(It also bugs us that the game has long bow as an option for the Paladin's special weapon and then we take away a strong DPS boost for Paladins that go that way.)

If 14 Paladin builds are still vastly more desirable than other ranged builds even though other builds have ways to pursue similar bonuses then we will find a way to address that.

Sev~

What about shield builds? Don't you think that it is just unfair if you remove it from shields as well? Please reflect on how a vanguard is supposed to match it? What good is a shield for if there is no chance of dealing strong damage in it? Why don't you just remove the crit threat range but keep the multiplier on the HS? That way you would make many players still happy.

I am playing a ranger now but I would really like to see fair changes so nobody gets nerfed more than others.
Please be just.

[Vorthian]

...

~ With the bug in certain Fury of the Wild enhancements, Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars can be used to get back uses of Adrenaline. With the new reduced rate of fire of Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars, utilizing this bug will be slightly less effective. We understand and have designed around this. We want to either legitimize this build by changing the wording on Fury Eternal so it officially supports ranged attacks or fix the bug, and we are looking forward to feedback on this from Lamannia.

...

~ Do we want to legitimize Fury Eternal's gain of Adrenaline while using missile weapons, or do we want to fix that bug?

Sev~

Now is the time to put this to rest once and for all, in one direction or another. Having the Dev's be silent on this has been tacit approval, but I absolutely hate the uncertainty that arises each time this is brought up on the forums. The unanswered question can be rewritten as, "Hey, Vorthian, we might fix this bug and drive you from the game. Or we might not, guess you'll just have to wonder. Have fun not knowing!"

[Oxarhamar]

Heh, you clearly have zero familiarity with playing any kind of ranged character at all. I've played quite a few, and I think the ranged changes are a good idea. Ranger isn't and shouldn't be the only option for any type of ranged and nobody should get a PENALTY to a style.

Personally I'm fine with making ranged Fury "legit".

Question--I know sneak attack on melee attacks scales with melee power. On ranged attacks does it scale with ranged power? Any thoughts about making sneak attack scale with 150% ranged power or similar? It'd make sense to me because there's a pretty sharp limitation on range unless you go for the DWS capstone. Maybe not necessary, but it'd make sneak-focused ranged builds scale better against burst-focused.

It's a pity that Shiradi is still so awful for ranged builds.

Your right, changes will have no effect on my running a ranged character other than dropping 14 Paladin.

[Oxarhamar]

No dev team anywhere will ever release an update every in any game that will be considered by players to be resoundingly and decidedly "balanced" across the boards. Balance is all but a four letter word, it's a near unattainable idea, because it varies so much for each player and dev.

Be constructive. Ask for some of the builds/etc. used, don't just be like "yeah right lol your internel tests are worthless." Be constructive, people. Just naysaying and bickering doesn't help improve anything.

+1

[rygard]

The change to TWF feats compensates for the DPS increase from the animation change.

The only two weapon fighting build we changed is Paladin.

Sev~

No, you also cutting down pure monks who using hwraps -which also not gonna affected by that "animation change"-. So, another nail to coffin.

[Blivit]

On two weapon fighting:

First, we smoothed out the Two Weapon Fighting animation and we saw a small bump in DPS. Since those builds are strong we were concerned that it would just exaggerate the difference in styles. We needed to compensate ~6% due to the change.

I think I've been pretty patient over the years with unarmed monks falling further and further behind as more and more enhancements, epic destinies, and whatnot break or don't work with handwraps. For example, the last update broke all %chance on hit effects on handwraps -- significantly weakening unarmed monks with end-game handwraps and/or augments -- but I'll wait to see if it gets fixed in the next update, maybe even major update, until I actually complain about it (rather than just point it out). Now monks are getting the short end of the quarterstaff, again. The justification is that non-unarmed two-weapon fighting has been made more powerful, so ALL two-weapon fighting must be nerfed to get it back in line. No, please, no. Unarmed monks don't use this animation. Unarmed monks aren't seeing this new 6% DPS increase. Please don't hurt them EVEN MORE than they already are. PLEASE address unarmed monk DPS before you consider nerfing two-weapon fighting even further. These most recent proposed changes have pushed me over the edge into actively complaining that we need a monk pass ASAP. Please do not implement the nerf to two-weapon fighting melee power until after unarmed monk DPS has been increased by some other means.

[bbqzor]

I have just been too busy IRL to get a proper post together, but I am making time tonight. This set of changes misses some key things which seem only apparent with a great deal of play experience, and cannot be expressed simply by "math" or "internal testing". A breakdown by change:




Holy Sword (Paladin)

When Paladin came out, many changes and/or additions were suggested. A very great deal of those were told "we cannot or would not, because Holy Sword is big". This is the second nerf to Holy Sword since that pass. And it continues to undermine the validity of that pass. Simply put: if you are going to continue to reduce the oomph Holy Sword provides, it needs to be revitalized back into the enhancements with some tweaks there. Otherwise, while multiclass situations which took Holy Sword out of balance get addressed, but in the process pure or mostly-pure actual Paladin builds simply get reduced.

You have repeatedly specified that the idea was specifically to target TWF Paladins... but why. If TWF classes are generally more dps as you say, why only make Paladin TWF worse? Must all Paladins be low-dps self-sufficient characters? The way the enhancements were set up you cannot really do much to counter this:

- If you take Vanguard to 41 you lose too much without a shield on, but suffer reduced volume of KOTC procs, as well as less additional Light d6s if you spent points in Sacred Defender to raise the stance up.
- If you take KoTC to 41, you cannot get enough shield bash or melee alacrity via Vanguard to compare to TWF or SWF rate of attack, meaning you are forced to put the other points into Sacred Defender and rely solely on KotC for damage.
- If you take Sacred Defender to 41, you both cannot get enough bash/alacrity in Vanguard to offer good dps, nor can you take KoTC high enough to get any of the good melee power boosts.

In all cases, the only solutions are to either move toward TWF, or to simply not be 20 paladin and spend 41 pts in one tree. Thats just a flat out bad design situation. Taking TWF (and to a noticeable extent, the buffed shield on Vanguard since paladins to not have the feats of a Fighter to capitalize on the other gains from that tree) off the Holy Sword list just shoves this problem even more to the front.

If this happens, PLEASE: Go back and look at those paladin threads. Look at all of YOUR DEV POSTS saying "well, thats a good idea but cant: Holy Sword too good". Because its just not anymore. And Paladins deserve some dps options too. Forcing everyone into s/b fighter clones sans the feat support, or swf kotc builds trying to ride out 7d6 light damage like it even compares even to something like swashbuckling is not a good place to leave the class. And its otherwise going to be ages before that class gets looked at again. Dont let all the "self heal prr/mrr" stuff blind the dps issue... in many cases the level of defense is overkill and essentially just represents losing dps for nothing. The class should have some strong dps options, not just one medicore one.



Blood Strength (Barbarian Ravager)

I assume you mean when they hit an opponent. It procs on Hits. If its changed to on-kill... thats an extremely massive nerf. Assuming its just a 1s cd on hit, I guess people can roll with that. It won't impact 2hd much just twf, and thats probably fine given what the other barbarian healing options do.



Critical Rage (Barbarian Ravager)

Fine. Related: PLEASE put the type of bonus for crit threat range and multiplier into all the tool tips. Its getting real complicated remembering which items/feats/destinies/enhancements/buffs/etc all stack. Just have some guy load up each tree and skim, if it says "crit anything" go add the type. I am sure players can provide a comprehensive list to label if that is easier for you. But, Get The Labels In!!



Two weapon fighting animations have been fixed so there is no longer a weird jump on the fourth animation. This has made the fourth attack slightly quicker.
Two Weapon Fighting (all feats) no longer grants melee power.

Good change. The dps changes from my work show roughly a 1% dps swing, and thats minimal enough that the better looking / better playing animations are probably worth it. Especially if you feel this helps address balance and/or lag.



Doubleshot values over 100% now have a chance of producing a third attack. The chance is equal to the amount the value exceeds 100. A doubleshot value of 130, for example, would always produce one extra shot and have a 30% chance to produce a third shot.

Essentially pointless, as the only situations this addresses are from Manyshot / 10K (see that reply below).


Repeating Crossbows and Doubleshot

Can you explain why this is balanced? That might sound like I'm an idiot, so be it. Doubleshot provides extra attacks per unit time, based on rate of fire. Repeaters do NOT shoot 3x faster than other ranged options... why should they get only 1/3rd the boost in rate of fire?

I understand the "layman's math" that if one mouse click is 3 bolts, then doubleshot should be 1/3rd, so its the same amount of extra arrows per mouse click. Except that the mouse click has exactly nothing to do with rate of fire... thats wholly controlled by animation time and things like alacrity values. So if Repeaters and other options shoot similar numbers of times per minute... why does one of those get 1/3rd less doubleshot?

(Note, I'm not trying to say don't fix the bug, I am just asking for a direct explanation of why that was intended in the first place. We have never gotten an explanation actually based on attack rate comparisons since the ability even showed up in game. It was just the guy doing it said "repeaters shoot 3x so 1/3rd boom" and we were all like "wait what" and then it went live. So yea...)


Manyshot

Adding to Doubleshot and Ranged Power mathematically keeps this change close. It is a loss (about 10% from what I can tell) in general, in terms of uptime. Anyone using a bow 24/7 will come out ahead over time due to no penalty afterwards, possibly barring "burst" situations like manyshot+fury which now get watered down. Anyone not using a bow 24/7 will be roughly similar (though worse) meaning classes like Fighters or builds like Tempest can still use this.

Let me just go on record saying I think this is a bad solution. I would have done something different. But since you are not budging and this just went post to lama (to live soon enough) its obvious no significant deviation will happen.

So instead I'll simply say, it could have been worse. I hope you add more doubleshot options to the game to help offset this in the very near future (meaning ones that stack, like a new ranger buff or add another lv30 destiny feat for another 10 or something). Another 10-20% of that which is somewhat readily obtainable without dumping your other gear choices can help ensure anyone wanting this diversity can work to obtain it without compromising themselves.


Ten Thousand Stars

If this can be used every 1 minute, and the idea is to not force people into using 10k stars, AND you are making AA DCs based off wisdom... I am seeing some things just not really changing.

Dropping Manyshot CD to 1 min as well might be the change needed to bring them more in line and prevent "forced" multiclassing. Interestingly, if this happens it also makes my above comments on Manyshot moot.... Having it there more often means taking a hit per use would balance out. If anything, it might encourage MORE diversity, with it being more "worthwhile" for someone like a Fighter to sink the feats building up to Manyshot since it adds a new dimension to their class. Appealing idea, no?


Mechanical Reloader (Rogue Mechanic)

Reason for this? They just doing too much dps or something? Maybe it could stay 40% for Great Crossbows or something.


Pulverizer (Legendary Dreadnought)

Again, add labels please.


Improved Critical and Keen

Ugh. This seems like its going to cause a lot of fury over not much in-game difference. I do see that you are going to add some redesign on Assassin and Swashbuckler to prevent that from getting "messed up" which is good.

But otherwise, its just going to mean the current "good" choices change, and future ones will just be designed with that in mind so will wind up where they were "aiming" at regardless. Just shuffling the status quo for no reason is a good way to anger the players. If it has to happen though, fine, its not the end of the world and it affects literally everything so... it is what it is. I hope you have some future idea which makes the growing pains here worth it.

PS, while youre there, add labels to crit related bonus types. Thanks.



Armor Changes

Big changes..... PRR wise, Heavy, Medium, Light .. Old:New

BAB 24, 60:48, 40:36, 24:24. Okay, small changes, but fine.
BAB 17, 53:34, 35:25, 20:17. Alright... bigger changes.
BAB 12, 48:24, 32:18, 18:12. Wow really big changes.

This basically means armor isn't good if you don't have BAB. Period. And no MRR, period. Just, wow.

This really makes spending feats on the proficiencies a pretty bad idea. No one is going to use armor that didn't get it already. And no one is going to bother with something like Eldritch Knight much (not that there were tons of them now, but there just isn't the same incentive).

If this was made to stop "heavy armor only" style play, I think it is grossly missing the mark. Dropping ~50 MRR (avg of what heavy armor adds now, and its what heavy armor on a bab24 tank would add if it existed post changes) is really significant. It means everyones going to take quite a bit more damage than they would otherwise... but it makes the lighter end of the scale hurt worse. At least barbarians or paladins or whatever still have a big hit die, and access to con boosting effects like a defender stance or rage. Classes/trees like eldritch knights, warchanters, druids, favored souls, etc are all just going to take more spell damage without any alternatives. And I am not sure that is good.

Not just because of "omg Ill die more". Fact is, in non-EE style situations, most people will still be fine. But it undermines the advantages those sorts of build decisions were supposed to offer when they went in. Druids and Favored Souls could spend a feat to get heavy armor. That feat now only adds something like ~15 prr, where as before it added 20+ prr and mrr. And a Warchanter taking Medium armor enhancement only gains maybe 6 prr now, rather than 15 prr/mrr. And using Eldritch Knight to try and cast in armor... forget about it.

Those other armor options need to be looked at. Something like the Warchanter enhancement can just have +5 prr/mrr on it. Just add that in there! Build diversity is going to take a hit here... people will adapt to the new efficient, and its not going to be just doing the same thing for less return. Do NOT let those class options go to waste.


As a result of dialing back armor, some fighter only feats that will boost their effectiveness with armor and add to tactical DCs will also be included.

Meh. Fighter Only stuff is of little consequence. They are the ones hurt least by the changes. They already had sort of only "one" armor option (heavy unless evasion splash then light, always just one "choice") and have the biggest PRR totals by far, making a small loss negligible to them. The will feel the MRR loss, sure, but I dont think a few more DC or losing feats to get back what they had is any sort of solution.

But if you want to add a lot of feats to create a ton of unbalance hey feel free. I seriously doubt fighters having DCs 10-20 above everyone else won't ever cause a future problem. Nor will adding feats that provide more MRR than the entire paladin class either. Its cool, paladins still have that going for them. I mean after the fighter uses 2-3 feats to catch up to paladin hes only ahead like 7ish so itll work out.

... I'm trying to say, I think this needs a lot more thought. A LOT. Because its not fixing things, its just making Fighter as good or better than other choices. Thats not a fix, thats a build redo (Put a fighter with these feats next to a paladin post holy sword changes. The paladin will have better saves, and worse everything else. Thats not really ideal, I hope).



Divine Grace (Paladin)

If this fixes some concern you have, cool, don't think it will really do much harm. Side note: you may want to look at Half Elf Dilettants (both paladin and others). As time has gone on, they become more and more worthless. Changing them to something more contemporary would be extremely welcome.

Relevant example: Paladin Dilettant: add your Cha to saves (cap of 2 + pal lvl x3), where pal lvl = 1-3 based on how many AP spent in that tree.

Just a thought, the race is pretty dang far behind, it could use its main class feature being something people may actually want instead of a paltry 1d6 sneak or +2 saves or something... no one has the AP to really sink into that tree anymore, be good to make the choices actually decent.


Eldritch Blast and other enhancements (Warlock)

So overall, Warlock dps drops about 10% in relative terms (after accounting for spellpower and such). Thats probably fine, they have a lot going for them.

One thing I would like to say is, don't make Chain under 100%. I really do not think any warlock power should actually adjust your values down. Chain may be popular because it lets the player be lazy, but its is not anywhere near over powered. The cap on how many mobs it affects makes it pale next to other choices. The appeal is lazy factor, and less missed shots while kiting. That is not worth actually "losing" base spell power.

If they go down fine, and if that one needs to be a flat 1:1 scale due to ease of play and lazy factor, okay. But it is not their best dps ability, nor does it do anything they cannot do with another option, and as a player getting less than 1:1 just isnt *fun*. Cap it at that, as a minimum, if you feel its otherwise too attractive to players.

-----

Wow lots of feedback. Hope it is helpful. Thanks... for hopefully having time to get eyes on this and digest it. Cheers.

[mikarddo]

Exactly. You'll see a small decrease in number of attacks (which at 26% is pretty much spot on where we want to be), and the large boosts in Ranged Power to compensate. The strategy of fishing for vorpals (similar to fishing for saving throw rolls of 1 to exaggerate the effectiveness of CC) will be slightly less effective while DPS will be close to live.

Sev~

Thank you for the reply. Kindly dont refer to a 26% cut as "small" though because its not - if my paycheck was cut by 26% it would not be a small cut :) Also, referring to archery as fishing for vorpals seems very odd when archery is easily and by far the type of weapon with the lowest RoF including manyshot, 10k and doubleshot. Do you intend to lower the RoF of other weapons by 26% as well or is that honor reserved for bows?

Anyway, kindly decide if you want to make Adrenaline work with ranged or not. If "not" the rest of your changes to archery are completely irrelevant as far as I am concerned as Furyshots are what makes archery fun and different. So, kindly dont remove that unique style of play.

[BigErkyKid]

No dev team anywhere will ever release an update every in any game that will be considered by players to be resoundingly and decidedly "balanced" across the boards. Balance is all but a four letter word, it's a near unattainable idea, because it varies so much for each player and dev.

Be constructive. Ask for some of the builds/etc. used, don't just be like "yeah right lol your internel tests are worthless." Be constructive, people. Just naysaying and bickering doesn't help improve anything.

I see. Be constructive as in doing exactly what I did in the second part of the post you carefully cropped?

They constantly reference their data and tests and very frequently it is at odds with our experience. Truth is, it s like pulling teeth asking for what they actually tested. As for balance being hard to achieve, all I can say is duh. I have been vastly more constructive than the majority of people in this thread who are just crying and threatening to cancel their sub of their op xp farmer toon gets nerfed.

But being constructive does not mean just giving applause. The proposal in the op was good in spirit (remove stacking of ic) but very bad in its implementation. I showed how it hurts the balance between weapons in swash and how it also hurts the balance between thf crit classes and the rest. One has to wonder, did they really not notice that short swords were getting the short end of the stick with the changes? Because last I saw now they are saying they will change it to preserve the balance.

I said it in my posts but I'll say it again. I stand behind the necessity of these changes. However, I don't have a single ounce of blind trust for the devs left in me. They have shown that they can make massive blunders and quite frankly this whole balance update is one giant mea culpa. It is a recognition of 1 whole year of incorrect decisions.

I applaud the courage to accept the mistakes. I stand with them that this is needed. But don't ask me to blindly accept their data and tests when those have been so obviously wrong that we now nerf a massive need update. I will bow to facts, not to "our data shows". I think it is fair.

[bbqzor]

And more feedback!


With the bug in certain Fury of the Wild enhancements, Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars can be used to get back uses of Adrenaline. With the new reduced rate of fire of Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars, utilizing this bug will be slightly less effective. We understand and have designed around this. We want to either legitimize this build by changing the wording on Fury Eternal so it officially supports ranged attacks or fix the bug, and we are looking forward to feedback on this from Lamannia.

Just change the text. Its the Primal Sphere, it should support Primal playstyles, and its is definitely not overpowering anything or breaking anything. Blitz works on both, Fury should too.


It's not that we mind two weapon fighting Paladins doing decent DPS, or two weapon barbarians doing decent DPS, but these builds should not be outperforming builds based on other styles by 40% or higher.

If you mean twf paladin is 40% more than twf otherclass then I have to say, poor builds are at fault. If you are saying twf paladin is 40% more dps than 2hd paladin or swf paladin, then I would say "well you designed the enhancement trees and spells in that manner and this was pointed out during the pass".

Let me put it another way: Go try to build a pure 20 paladin based around a non twf style which is supposed to be a "dps build". You kind of can't. The enhancement trees are not setup for that. This is part of why I say go back and look at the trees a bit in my previous post. I feel strongly it is needed. I also believe some concrete demonstrations would be simple to make. Like, all the dps pretty much comes from kotc, which favors attack rate not attack type, and yeah. Case in point. Thats not really twf's fault (or holy swords fault even). Its the enhancement pass's fault.


We think there has been a lot of good discussion in particular on MRR, armor, and whether these changes will put us back into a state where everyone feel compelled to take Evasion. We have read suggestions that some smaller amount of MRR might be added back to armors and we've been looking at that option. I just wanted to point out the reductions do not put us back to pre Armor Up balance. The PRR formula is more generous, and the PRR offered by armor is still higher. Heavy armor mitigates a lot more damage than before Armor Up. In addition, there are many sources of MRR, including gear, that simply did not exist before, including enhancements that only work with medium or heavy armors. Armored characters are still in much better shape than in the past

Yeah but theyre not in better shape BECAUSE OF their armor. You could wear no armor, throw on a 24 sheltering ring before even hitting 20, and have 27 prr from past lives, and just walk around taking 50% less physical damage. So yes of course we are better than before the armor/prr/game-mechanic change.

But its not because of armor. Which is what the armor pass was supposed to focus on. Again, please look at those fighter feats next to paladin enhancements. Look really close. Its not a picture I think will be healthy for the game. Let alone the non-"tank" classes' situations.


We have been reading with interest the concerns with named weapons that have increased threat ranges built in and how they interact with Improved Critical. This interaction is part of the design, as these threat ranges provided too much benefit previously. The fact that some of these weapons with lower level requirements were better than end game weapons highlights the problem fairly well.

Critical related situations have cropped up from time to time, sure. But trying to say that Item ML should directly correspond to a linear increase in weapon effectiveness is a lost cause. DDO is just not tightly or skillfully itemized enough for that. Its not a player-side problem.

The only real solution to that concern is having itemization guys know their game stats, their game play, and their ability interaction at top notch levels. And yes, thats asking a lot. Its complicated stuff and takes many hours of play to get a feel for. The next best solution is to give players a lot more chance to provide feedback, or be a lot more flexible with that feedback.

Maybe thats something the council does now... but I remember back in the day guys like Gensei would source ideas or feedback and a lot of it worked out very well. Now we see little or no change from preview to live, and have not for many releases. We need a chance to adjust items before this kind of stuff gets into game... and things like crits are a part of that.


Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars still provide a massive burst of damage; we really don't think these builds will lose their burst feel when these abilities provide an additional 200-300% damage increase depending on gearing.

Not sure how you get that number... using them will not triple anyones DPS. Okay if you're like level 20 and have no ranged power and no doubleshot then yes, clicking 10k to get 50 ranged power and 100% doubleshot will triple your dps. But to even say that here is misleading... its not a real world example that will ever happen. More likely, youll go from like 50% doubleshot and 80 ranged power, to 130% and 160 power... which is like double.

So its a x2 clicky, where it used to be closer to a x3.5 or x4 clicky. As I said before in the end its somewhat okay, but I do think future choices should support this new direction sooner rather than later.


our live builds using two weapon fighting are testing really high. I'll be honest, it concerns us that there seems to be a large disconnect on what we are seeing in testing and the players perception on two weapon fighting. We are seeing two weapon fighting build posting numbers that are 30-40% higher than builds that use two handed weapons and single weapon fighting.

As an example, we don't want to remove a two weapon fighting option for Paladin, but we also don't think it should be doing 30-40% more damage than other styles either.

I wanted to bring this up because as we read the thread I don't think we've done a good enough job communicating why we are concerned about two weapon fighting builds.

This also completely ignores mention of the fact that building for TWF is the hardest. It has the worst stat requirements to deal with (17 dex and 3x feats). It also has the worst itemization requirements (for the entire games history, getting 2 good weapons has been more work than any alternative form of weapon itemization by a significant margin... and it continues to be so).

If you make any changes to twf (which I strongly feel you should NOT do) it would have to reverse those situations as well. Frankly, at this point in the game, thats a can of worms best left unopened. It is what it is, and has a lot of drawbacks as well (shortest hit box, most farming demands, affected the most by dr, etc).

In terms of paladin specifically... again go to the source. A twf assassin isnt so far behind a 2hd acrobat because they have support for both choices. Paladin doesn't. Its that simple.

If Barb (the other class mentioned at times) twf is outperforming Barb 2hd by margins that big, I think the builds or players are at fault. Its simple for a 2hd bbn to keep pace with a twf bbn on live for all good players/builds Ive ever encountered. Some are better/worse at different things. But neither one is taking any sort of dps or kill lead by virtue of style alone, and certainly not by such large margins. Barbarian is a class which has support for both indirectly, some things work better with twf some better with 2hd but both offer great, compareable, competitive dps without being specific. Rogue choices are specific. Paladin choices don't exist.

[Nestroy]

@ Sev, Varg, rest of gang,

you did a great thing to react to the most validated concerns about TWF, Holy Sword and Manyshot/10k. We got answers to the looming MRR debacle, albeit not promissing ones (that MRR on armor gets something in between current heights and zero MRR). I still do not like to go back to pyjama builds. Some MRR should be given with medium and heavy armor. If it is too high currently, tone down a bit. Make nonproficient toons not gain any MRR (and only half PRR?) from armor they are not supposed to wear. There should be a balance between evading damage (or dodging it) and sitting it out in armor. If you have the impression of MRR beeing too much on armor, tone it down. Do not reduce it to zero totally.

That leaves a last concern, regarding Warlocks. I would like to ask you a few questions on this:

1.) Is the change to blast damage done to balance out heroics?
1a) If yes, are you aware that this will get WL into serious problems in epic content?
1b) If yes, are you aware that there would be better ways to balance the WL in heroics, e.g. reducing benefits from Shining Through and making blasts cost SP?
1c) If no, is this blast pass done to reduce WLs in epic content?
1c1) If yes to epic tuning down, are you aware that even now before the pass only a handful of WL builds can compete in EE at all?
1d) If no, is this blast pass done because of some players comlaining?
1d1) Based on what numbers? Or is this just perceived power of WLs?
1d2) Complaints about what stage of the game? Low end heroics, high end heroics, epics? Epic Elite?
1e) Since only a handful of WL builds can compete in EE and you are nerfing epic damage too, are you aware that this will make WL less attractive?

2.) Is nerfing blast damage the most cost efficient way to balance WL? Meaning that the other ways are just more resource-intensiv to do.

Sorry to be that inquisitive. I fear that the blast damage pass is done out of the wrong motivs, hitting the wrong stage of play (epic and epic elite) and does more damage than good. Warlocks need some balancing, no doubt. But imho they do not need it in the DPS department. Especially not across the board.

Warlocks gain their power from the fact that they do not sacrifice anything for their main source of DPS. They just need to lv. up. And they gain their power from the fact that they are nearly indestructible w/o sacrificing much in terms of farming / grind, feats or SP. It´s not the raw DPS they are OPed in. On epic elite they even loose out against most if not all correctly done Paladin or Barbarian builds, Bard Swash and most Monkchers. I now leave out other xploiter builds on purpose. Warlocks easily win against Sorc and Wiz, tho, but these are in the doghouse for years now, and these are no p2p classes - and new ones at that.

If you do tone down Warlocks, tone them down for heroics. Leave their DPS intact in epic levels and for EE. Make them sacrifice more for what they get. Either tone down on Shining Through. Or make blasts cost SP. Or do both. But leave the DPS intact on epic levels.

[Raynebowdragon]

After some discussions with others and a little time thinking about this, some of these changes do make some sense.

The changes to twf, at first glance is a nerf on Rangers, however it's not really.

Rangers get boosts on their Tempest Tree to offhand weapons, which those who simply take the feat as a fighting option do not.

Unless ofc they splash in Ranger, however unless they are willing to transfer enhancement points into the tempest Tree from their main class Tree this would be a bit of a bad idea as to gain in one area they would lose in an area affecting the main class of their toon...

I can see why they would restrict a class using TWF that is not Ranger, due to the extra DPS that comes from simply being a big DPS melee class, so essentially this is balancing out the output from big DPS class and giving Ranger class a little more punch via their enhancement tree.

Still not pleased about the Barb changes, not sure they needed a cool down on their heals simply because everyone these days scream at you for not self healing, it is not likely there is even a healer in the party and if they are they usually self obsessed with offensive casting rather than healing and lets face it the small Barb heals and pots on a 2500 hp Barb just don't quite cut it do they?

The Pally changes I can see would affect many, but does not affect me so much because I am already building a monk splash Pally, that utilizes evasion, deflect arrows and dodge and will build up prr and mrr via ETRs.

Bit disappointed that Holy Sword can no longer be cast on hand weapons, because they gave my wraps a little extra punch required when only having 3 levels of Monk splashed on a Pally. But she is still built to intimidate and take punches while dealing out some decent dmg, her survivability is a little low right now but a few ETRs under the belt and problem solved!

As far as nerfing Warlocks go I am all for that, you party with a Warlock when you're a player not a piker and it's quite simply not any fun at all, as you wind up running round an empty Dungeon looting chests and as a Barb the Warlock steals your kill shots and you get no heals from your enhancements at all... As far as I am concerned nerfing some Warlock dmg is the best news I have heard this week!

Which by the way all these guys boasting they have 500 prr and mrr because they have ETRd a hundred times are the reason they are nerfing the prr and mrr on items, also I am guessing to encourage people to buy tomes with remnants, tomes from the DDO store and ETR more!

I have a few questions on the change to Many Shot:

Are you more or less changing to the same dmg in less shots?
Are you changing the cool down to suit the possibility of less dmg due to the shorter duration of the attack?

[AzureDragonas]

On two weapon fighting:

There has been a lot of two weapon fighting talk, specifically about the changes to the feats and to Holy Sword and I wanted to talk about our design intent.

First, we smoothed out the Two Weapon Fighting animation and we saw a small bump in DPS. Since those builds are strong we were concerned that it would just exaggerate the difference in styles. We needed to compensate ~6% due to the change.

That said, our live builds using two weapon fighting are testing really high. I'll be honest, it concerns us that there seems to be a large disconnect on what we are seeing in testing and the players perception on two weapon fighting. We are seeing two weapon fighting build posting numbers that are 30-40% higher than builds that use two handed weapons and single weapon fighting. These builds can still generate a lot of AoE through cleaves and cleave replacements. Although the AoE of two weapon fight would be behind two handed fighting, it isn't far enough behind to warrant such a large damage differential.

As an example, we don't want to remove a two weapon fighting option for Paladin, but we also don't think it should be doing 30-40% more damage than other styles either.

I wanted to bring this up because as we read the thread I don't think we've done a good enough job communicating why we are concerned about two weapon fighting builds. As we get ready for Lamannia we will be watching player feedback on their experiences with these changes and hopefully some DPS testing to see if the players are seeing more balance or if we need to look more closely into two weapon fighting.

Sev~

I still don't get why it's wrong duals are best DPS single target option in game, they already require lot more farming grinding etc than other weapons, requires more ability score investment also and get penalties.

There are already dozen drawbacks why you dont wanna play duals
1. Investments on abilities requirments.
2. feat hungry.
3. you need to put 2x more efforts to get good end game items than rest play styles.
4. you will have low damage as base but its compensated by attack number.
5. There are dozen better damage builds (wolfs, trees, warlocks, any multiple shooting mortal fear) and prob hardest warchanters (with which i can solo EE just becouse freezing mobs while having 80+ dc for 10-20 secs makes sense) or even lets take qstaffs where you can go doing 500-700 base on helpless and crits up to 8k, Bows u plan to nerf and still ignored repeaters which after updates already beat fury archers.
6. There is no option for multiple clearing couse if on duals you use cleave suddenly entire lane becomes lowest dps in game.
7. requires dozen gear just to get doublestrike attack speed tanky enough etc.
8. short range required to even hit target, so you must fight nearly surrounded by trash mobs.

Why you think fighters who specialize on mob clearing runs arround swinging they THF falcons 99% of quest and swaps to duals just to kill boss faster.

And you still think duals are so overhelming that you ignore fact its payback for those who worked hard to even get this far, sure i agree just by attacking 1 not moving kobold and looking in dps might appear not fair but try then test in real circumstances in some ee quests where you have to deal with champions and multiple monsters at same time.

[GroundhogDay]

Upon reading feedback from players and re-examining our builds, we are making Holy Sword once again affect missile weapons.

What about throwers?

And will we see a nerf in casters power? I mean, if balancing is the endgame of all this mess, i'd like to see less casters clear any room with ONE spell.

And will dodge get a nerf? It hardly seems fair that we heavy armor build get nerfed and light armor still have dodge, give higher dodge to heavys to compensate or trash dodge completely, right? It's only balancing

[SirValentine]

If having 10 MRR on light armor, 20 MRR on medium armor and 30 MRR on heavy armor is too powerful, why did you add 25 stacking MRR to the mysterious remnant cloak?

These are the type of decisions that boggle my mind. it's ok to add stacking 25 MRR to a cloak, but on armor it's way too powerful.

From my perspective things seem very chaotic and haphazard.

I don't think we need the extra MRR, but I'm with you on the apparently contradictory decisions.

Reminds me of when they nerfed the stacking DC bonus off of raid loot (e.g., Stormreaver's Napkin), then, very shortly thereafter, added a stacking DC bonus on purchasable Augments.

Or when they added per-spell metamagics, then, later, nerfed our ability to choose to Heighten Heal.

[Nestroy]

(...)As far as nerfing Warlocks go I am all for that, you party with a Warlock when you're a player not a piker and it's quite simply not any fun at all, as you wind up running round an empty Dungeon looting chests and as a Barb the Warlock steals your kill shots and you get no heals from your enhancements at all... As far as I am concerned nerfing some Warlock dmg is the best news I have heard this week!
(...)

In what content, heroic, heroic elite, epic, epic elite? WLs are uber in lv. range 4-22, then they begin to loose out on other builds. If you are complaining EE end game, please consider that most WLs do an average of 600-800 damage in that content with critting at about 1600. In EE this is not too much, especially if compared to some other builds doing 15k damage in the same quests, albeit burst damage. It´s right that in heroics the WL can easily best all and any high level heroic elite on solo. But there is a reason the WL can do this, and the reason is not DPS. It´s that the WL does not have to fear any retribution from mobs. When Wiz and Sorc were top of the crop, these classes often lead kill counts and were generally considered quite OP. But woe to the one or two times these classes got hit by a mob. I had quite some pugs where a Sorc or Wiz was leading the kill count AND the death list. Class Cannons. Now, the WL can clean the dungeon without even thinking about hit points. Self heal and temporary hit points make the WL a true survivability monster. The WL is not supposed to be that OP (especially with only one single enhancement from one single tree)! The complete disregard for the tactical situation is what makes the WL so powerful.

Take back the massively OP ES tier 5 enhancement Shining Through to "meaningful" levels and you go a great length to have WLs doing massively less damage to mob hordes. Because if they do otherwise they spend most of their time in a dungeon as a beautiful little soul stone.

Then make the WLs pay a price for their blasts. Make them cost SP: Especially on lower levels this will massively reduce the use of blast auras and (at the right SP price) blast chains. Then again, the WL will use the auras and chains in the right times, but the massive AOE damage output is limited to the SP pool.

Then, and only then, cut back on direct DPS. Especially if still too high on heroics. On epics (namely EE) the DPS was never too high.

[andina]

I'm not impressed with any of the changes other than removing the doubleshot penalty. With the current changes to level30+ quests places like EE orchard non champ mobs can hit for over 700 in one shot on my bard with 100+prr.
It seems to me like the idea of balancing the game means make sure you have a healbot cleric or fvs with the party. You should reconsider your "balancing act". I am pretty sure you will implement whatever changes you have planned such as not recharging adrenaline from ranged without listening to the players that are not just doing the "yes man" act. I don't agree with these changes and that is all i'm going to say about it. Just scrap the whole thing. fix the bugs and glitches and lag and make the game more playable. Don't take the fun out of it. Claiming it isn't working as intended after its been that way since MOTU sounds like you simply want to break ranger/monkcher builds. Get it right this time and hear what the player base has to say, not just the posts that say what you would like to hear

[Bluenoser]

DDO's greatest strength is customizable character design. I appreciate that it can be a nightmare for the devs, but it is the feature of DDO that I have heard players appreciate the most over the past 6 years--and in particular, the feature that is the most often cited by those who took time off but came back. The parts of the U19 enhancement pass that I liked least were those that effectively killed off certain creative builds by allowing only a pretty narrow conception of a class (advanced defensive stances in Stalwart Defender and Sacred Defender requiring med or heavy armor or shields were among the worst offenders). So when I read that Sev's defense for nerfing Holy Sword for off-hand weapons (not to mention cutting melee power for TWF line) was that TWF should be for rangers and not paladins, my immediate thought was, "here we go again with the cookie-cutter approach". I'm still running around with a TWF pally-monk in pyjamas, because it's a fun toon. She's a glass cannon, what with so little PRR. THAT'S balance: I sacrifice defence for DPS (and then only single-target DPS, as AzureDragonas notes above). Do I currently out-DPS a Tempest Ranger, just because I have Holy Sword and smites? Maybe, but I doubt it given the latest ranger enhancement pass. And let's not forget that HS requires 14 levels of pally, and if all you have is 14 pally, equipping HS means you don't equip Zeal, CSW or Deathward--that's some serious opportunity cost (compare that to what you can get with only 5 bard or rogue!). As well, as a pally I don't get a complete line of fantastic ranged feats *for free*. That's a choice on my part, but I don't see how it's "unbalanced". If the devs made TWF Tempest rangers too powerful, well, there's an easy fix for that in their enhancement trees. And focus on fixing the actually non-WAI OP stuff, like animal-form druids.

A couple of other quick thoughts about the proposed changes:
1) Warlock is too powerful only in heroic. It is especially not OP in EE. A better solution might be to employ a warlock-level-based escalator to the power multiplier of each blast shape. From my own experience, the thing that's really OP about Warlock (again, in heroics) is the chain blast--it is ridiculously effective at hitting a very large number of mobs, even those who are hidden. Then again, what isn't OP in heroic, if you have some decent gear and past lives?

2) Quarterstaff improved critical nerf: please consider upping it (and all the bludgeoning weapons) to +2. Even under the current system, base weapon damage and crit profile are terrible for a two-hander, and rare or named items are only slightly better. Sireth, even fully upgraded, is a very, very long way from God Mode.

3) weapon criticals more generally: I *loved* that Swashbuckler made otherwise completely useless weapon types useful again; I cannot fathom why you would go backward on that. Frankly, I'd like to see DDO move closer to the idea that weapon choice is a player's stylistic preference, rather than that some weapon types (pretty much everything bludgeoning) are garbage or that some are clearly superior. The proposed change takes the latter course. I get that crit ranges on some items are getting expanded in ways not intended, by the unexpected "doubling" effect IC has on enhancements and EDs that affect crit range. But can't this be fixed in some less-drastic way? Others in this thread suggested looking at "order of operations". Basically, please look at *any* other way to fix the problem.

4) Sev mentioned that further changes will be necessary to the crit system to help out nerfed weapons. Great--but do that before rolling out any of it. We're all still waiting for the rest of the changes to the loot gen tables started (with a massive nerf) what, 3 years ago? This is going to have a huge ripple effect, so best to get it right the first time as much as possible.

[CeltEireson]

I don't think we need the extra MRR, but I'm with you on the apparently contradictory decisions.

Reminds me of when they nerfed the stacking DC bonus off of raid loot (e.g., Stormreaver's Napkin), then, very shortly thereafter, added a stacking DC bonus on purchasable Augments.

Or when they added per-spell metamagics, then, later, nerfed our ability to choose to Heighten Heal.

The difference for armour MRR is opprtunity cost, items with MRR you're potentially giving up another item that may improve another aspect of your character, on armour the MRR is 'free' as its on every piece of similar armour and doesn't count as one of its bonuses.