The Balance Change post

[blerkington]

~ Since Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars have a reduced rate of fire, fishing for Mortal Fear and similar procs will be slightly less effective. We understand this and designed with this in mind.

~ With the bug in certain Fury of the Wild enhancements, Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars can be used to get back uses of Adrenaline. With the new reduced rate of fire of Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars, utilizing this bug will be slightly less effective. We understand and have designed around this. We want to either legitimize this build by changing the wording on Fury Eternal so it officially supports ranged attacks or fix the bug, and we are looking forward to feedback on this from Lamannia.

Sev~

Hi,

So, in order to see how this reduction affects my own build (a melee/ranged hybrid ranger not running in FoTW) I used Mikarddo's example (page 47, post 936).

Mikarddo reported an overall reduction in arrow numbers of around 26% for his full-time archer over a two minute period. That has serious implications for maintaining a blitz, regenerating adrenaline uses, mortal fear and other weapon damage procs, damage from imbues, other ED effects, etc.

In my own case, I usually melee when manyshot is on cooldown. My character, who currently has 15 ranger levels, has 52% doubleshot and a BAB of 23. The numbers for him are as follows:

MS = 20 seconds @ 2.44 missiles per second = 48.8 projectiles per manyshot. Assuming 80 projectiles right now under manyshot, the new figure is around 60% of the old one, meaning a 40% reduction.

A reduction of 26% for a full-time archer and 40% for a part-time archer means both build types are noticeably affected. Archery is already a very low RoF combat style compared to throwing and crossbows, and this downgrade only makes it even less competitive.

Now although the reduction in projectile numbers for my ranger is less over the whole two minutes, that is not a relevant comparison because the playstyle requires melee when manyshot is on cooldown for best effectiveness.

My suggestion to fix this is to leave manyshot as it is, and create a new feat which operates in the way the developers propose to change manyshot. Call it Power Shot, for example. The two feats would have the same requirements but they cannot both be taken. Rangers would get a choice of one of these two at Level 6 when they qualify.

The advantage of this alternative is that it prevents existing builds from being significantly downgraded while also encouraging full-time archery builds that are seeking more evenly delivered damage. As far as I can tell this is a win for everyone in that it permits all builds to continue functioning without the possibility of any one style of archery becoming much more powerful than the others.

Thanks.

[PermaBanned]

So Fury Eternal working with ranged IS A BUG?

Does this invalidate a zillion raid speed records?

How come this s being brought up now after 3 years?
O.o? You never noticed the *in-game text specifically states vorpalling on a melee attack?

*The wiki has a note that it works on ranged attacks as well, but that's just a wiki note and not part of the ability description in-game.

[AzureDragonas]

Greetings.


Doubleshot values over 100% now have a chance of producing a third attack. The chance is equal to the amount the value exceeds 100. A doubleshot value of 130, for example, would always produce one extra shot and have a 30% chance to produce a third shot.

(Doublestrike will still cap at 100 for technical reasons.)

Repeating Crossbows and Doubleshot
Fixed a bug where Doubleshot was not being reduced for repeating crossbows. (Doubleshot chance is divided by 3 for repeating crossbows.)

Manyshot
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 20 seconds you add your (base attack bonus * 4) to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. This ability puts Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 2 minutes.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

Ten Thousand Stars
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 30 seconds you add your Wisdom ability score to your Ranged Power and you add your monk level * 5 to your Doubleshot. This ability puts Manyshot on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 1 minute.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

Mechanical Reloader (Rogue Mechanic)
The alacrity for non-repeating crossbows is now 30%. (Was 40%)



Sev~

I was talking with guildie and got stupid question. As far as i understand new manyshot which worked with bows only suddenly gives doubleshoot and ranged power so in other works i can go repeater shuriken as far as i care and i get bonus? So wait if i go shuriken cannon which from dex can double shoot and start manyshoot which gives 120% doubleshooting and on top of that i add all neat ed pl enchants etc i can say reach 200 doubleshoot i will be throwing up to 6 shurikens in less than second? For 20 seconds and lets add t-stars too? So we kill already staying behind archers to make shurikens even stronger? Couse melee will be able to hit monsters who just dies from up to 6 shurikens with mortal fear thrown from another glass cannnon with imporved precise?

and same idea if i go repeaters

Endless Fusilade: Action Boost: You may activate this ability to enchant your crossbow to instantly reload itself for 6 seconds. (Cooldown: 30 seconds.) and manyshoot even with this 1/3 penalty wont they be able shoot bolts like ak-47 for all 6 seconds and rest 14 just again up to 6 with each series?

Even great crossbows who was able shoot up to 2 times before couse no penalty will be shooting up to 3 bolts from now on.

Dont forget all those shootings also gets 120% damage boost.



Would like to hear your comments about this.

P.S. current AA echants works on all ranged weapons, i can get elemental imbues metalines etc on shurikens i throw or crossbows, and all i need just to pick elf race. Those remakes on AA gonna boost them hard time, are this WAI stays too, so all other archers who know about this would get even bigger buff?

[Eth]

O.o? You never noticed the *in-game text specifically states vorpalling on a melee attack?

Really? Please. Not this s**t, again.
I really hope you're just being sarcastic.

3 years have we been asking about this without an answer.

"Everything in DDO works exactly as the description text states." - No one ever

[Robbenklopper]

I'm aware of the new changes, read the many comments on this Topic and do welcome the Balance pass, speaking from a pure melee Point of view.
But like any change, when trying to balance a possible exploited disbalance, there's always a keen edge of improvements. Most of it being a complete rip-off for some builds or at least a loss in power and viability, but needs to be done nevertheless.
Something wrong working fine so far doesn´t mean it´s right at all. Whatever nickel or grinding you had put into achiving and building, for the big whole concept we Need to stand it with tears, carve out and burry the rotten parts to get healthy.

Concerning the fact that the devs are going to burrow deep in our guts, there has to be aftercare to Keep the Patient alive. Operation successful, patient dead is no good option.
Enhancements can be reset and spend easily. Feats can not (e.g. the new fighter tactics+armory), besides you do a TR or ER for the case you are capped or WANT that. This can not be demanded on us by the devs.

So devs, please do the same with a free heart of wood +0 for the community like what sienna west did for me.

[Enguebert]

About Armor, PRR & MRR

With Armor Up pass, heavy armor became the "must have" because heavy armor give you the best of AC, PRR & MRR
Bascially, it screwed completly medium Armor (Light armor had stilll some use for evasion)
AC was opposed to dodge cap
PRR and MRR were opposed to ...nothing

So why not make PRR and MRR opposed ?
Heavy armor : very good PRR, no MRR
Medium armor : goog PRR, poor MRR
Light Armor : poor PRR, good MRR
Robe : no PRR, very good MRR

This way, at least medium armor could be a choice

Also special material (mithral, darkwood,...) could be used to give bonus to either PRR or MRR

[PermaBanned]

I understand your feelings and concerns about this fact. Still, Monk is my favorite class and it's a real bummer not playing him in the toughest content DDO has to offer.

Please make sure that when it is time to work on the Monk, that you make it as competitive as the Swashbuckler, the Paladin, the Barb, the Ranger, and all the other classes that have gotten or will get their passes before the Monk does.

Thanks.
Throw monks a bone. You are doing it with fighters. Are monks less worthy for whatever reason?

They lack DPS and their abilities are completely outdated. You could rework some of the abilities just by scaling them and reducing the cool down.Monk is my favorite of all the classes, and while it does suck waiting so long for it to get it's turn I'm actually glad for the wait. Reason being, all this nerf- *ahem* balancing (and the likely follow-up adjustments) and level cap 30 is happening first. I'd rather not get the Pally treatment of super buff followed by nerf, nerf, "balance." Let the kinks get worked out, start working on the Unarmed combat system with the Druid pass, and then give my Monk it's class pass & Handwrap fixes.

My 2cp on it anyway.

[Nestroy]

About Armor, PRR & MRR

With Armor Up pass, heavy armor became the "must have" because heavy armor give you the best of AC, PRR & MRR
Bascially, it screwed completly medium Armor (Light armor had stilll some use for evasion)
AC was opposed to dodge cap
PRR and MRR were opposed to ...nothing

So why not make PRR and MRR opposed ?
Heavy armor : very good PRR, no MRR
Medium armor : goog PRR, poor MRR
Light Armor : poor PRR, good MRR
Robe : no PRR, very good MRR

This way, at least medium armor could be a choice

Also special material (mithral, darkwood,...) could be used to give bonus to either PRR or MRR

MRR was to give heavy armor builds and medium armor builds something to counter magic. Light builds have evasion exactly for this. So evasion and MRR are the counter-pairs. Dodge and PRR are the counter-pairs at physical damage.

Bascally PRR / MRR were introduced to make good on the superiority of evasion / dodge builds in epic (EE) content. If you play for longer than about 2 years you will perhaps remember the typical pyjama builds of that time. While PRR still is top on heavy armor builds, even after the pass, MRR gets a severe hit. With casters doing truckloads of damage in endgame EE, we will see the return of the evasion pyjama builds with the pass. Simple as that.

[Stoner81]

Our thoughts on Holy Sword:

Holy Sword was very strong when it first appeared. Over time, however, it's relative power has been blunted by additional class passes that offer alternate ways to gain those competence based critical bonuses. As such we've introduced alternate options to the ever present 14 Paladin version of builds. As we continue our class passes we feel that Holy Sword will remain a strong option, but not the only option.

This is why Holy Sword didn't see as much of a change as people might have been expecting. We really hit two weapon fighting builds as they were putting out a lot of DPS for the mitigation provided by Paladin.

Our thought behind removing a missile weapon version was feedback that many of the best missile weapon options were actually better in the 14 Paladin variant. This concerned us, and we addressed it early.

Upon reading feedback from players and re-examining our builds, we are making Holy Sword once again affect missile weapons. No, we don't want 14 Paladin missile weapon builds to be the best missile option. The removal of missile weapons from Holy Sword, however, has more ramifications that most of the other changes in this balance pass as it negates a design goal for a specific kind of build. The other changes have statistical changes, but the design intent for other builds is still intact and the builds play the same. This particular aspect of Holy Sword we feel goes beyond statistical change; removing the missile option actually messes up a design intent for a specific build.

(It also bugs us that the game has long bow as an option for the Paladin's special weapon and then we take away a strong DPS boost for Paladins that go that way.)

If 14 Paladin builds are still vastly more desirable than other ranged builds even though other builds have ways to pursue similar bonuses then we will find a way to address that.

Sev~

Change the name of the spell to Holy Weapon or something along those lines.

With regards to TWF DPS, it should be the best DPS for a single target bar none imho! However, standing still during combat will cause you to end up dead pretty quick. You are probably/possibly testing under ideal circumstances for TWF which will probably not happen or rarely.

Stoner81.

[RD2play]

Change the name of the spell to Holy Weapon or something along those lines.

With regards to TWF DPS, it should be the best DPS for a single target bar none imho! However, standing still during combat will cause you to end up dead pretty quick. You are probably/possibly testing under ideal circumstances for TWF which will probably not happen or rarely.

Stoner81.

If the power discrepancy from HS will be to big for 2WF and S&B but the crit bonuses are too much, maybe add back the +[w] but only for the off-hand ?

[Lorianus]

At first glance: A good balance pass! In my opinion DDO became pigeonholed into a couple of over performing builds lately.

- Changes to critical threat range, barbarian heals, TWF: Addresses the issues but won’t be a deal breaker/showstopper for any builds.

- Holy Sword: Not sure whether the “holy shields” were really problematic, my Vanguard does good but not unbalanced DPS and the new crit. range stacking will lower his damage output anyway. Didn’t test holy TWF myself but I have run with some TWF paladins that were in another DPS ballpark than myself. BUT that were most likely completionists with bestemest gear and optimal builds. My own vanguard paladin only has a few pastlives, solid gear and a “standard” single class build. The holy Sword buff is too powerful to be applied to range weapons imho, stick to the change please.

- PRR/MRR: Evasion in light armor and stacking all the item, pastlive and enhancement PRR points seems to be the sweet spot now. What I liked with armor up was that even a fresh from Krothos first live cleric could waddle around in full plate and get some decent protection form it that further improved with higher levels. Now the plain old crafted “of invulnerability” robe or a legacy adamantine full plate are both better. Perhaps PRR offered a bit too much damage migration to the best DPS builds in game, but I feel sorry for the clerics, druids and souls with their medium BAB and their anyway underwhelming overall performance. There are hardly any “regular” clerics, souls and druids left. The few I see around are advanced builds like heavy multiclass Shiradi, cheesy wolfs/trees, ED SLA spammers and the like. Less PRR/MRR won’t help with that.

Manyshot/10k stars/warlock: Can't tell from numbers only.

[tsteigner]

MRR was to give heavy armor builds and medium armor builds something to counter magic. Light builds have evasion exactly for this. So evasion and MRR are the counter-pairs. Dodge and PRR are the counter-pairs at physical damage.

Bascally PRR / MRR were introduced to make good on the superiority of evasion / dodge builds in epic (EE) content. If you play for longer than about 2 years you will perhaps remember the typical pyjama builds of that time. While PRR still is top on heavy armor builds, even after the pass, MRR gets a severe hit. With casters doing truckloads of damage in endgame EE, we will see the return of the evasion pyjama builds with the pass. Simple as that.

completly agree, everything will after this pass (regarding armor) look the following : 2 rog or 2 mnk / 3 paladin / rest something else, do you really want to go back to that ? because that's not gonna be a maybe but a certain given ....

if you have the choice between some more prr (maybe 1-2% more since its on DR and zero protection from magic attacks vs a chance not reducing the dmg by some % but to 0 if you make the save everyone will pull out their pyjama's from their stowed place). Not to add to this, that all this hurts are gonna be new chars (1st, 2nd ....) since all "old" chars have so many PL they will get good Dodge, as well as PRR + MRR even in Pyjama's .....

As for the WL, he isn't over-performing because of its dps, its plain and simple because you don't have to think do i have sp to use my blast's if i use them now ... and way too much temp-HP with way too short reuse time. If you want to adjust wl to a useable level, leave the dps as it is, maybe even adjust it upwards a bit in Epics (they are dropping very bad in epics already, and will be off much worse after this) and better change the following :
1.) ASF affects the Blast's and all shapes, bursts and so on
2.) give Blasts, Bursts a sp cost, maybe 1 for the blast 2-5 for the bursts
3.) change shining through to a reasonable value (maybe 1-2 min reuse and con x (wl/2), which would also reduce the builds just taking 5 lvls of wl for just getting bursts + shining through)

[Strider1963]

Why oh why is multishot being changed??? Because some op players came up with the monkcher and do ridiculous damage?? IMHO, all this stuff is getting way out of hand, buff, then nerf, and even nerf something that's been in the game since way back when....?????

[Hipparan]

I see some complaints about damage for monkchers, and while I don't have a monkcher and frankly from the ones I used to run with, I thought they were overpowered, but I would like to throw out an idea for the Arcane Archer that might help with the balancing issues by increasing the damage a little. I recommend putting in an enhancement into the AA tree called "Improved Zen Archery", which would allow for wisdom bonuses to damage for bows, similarly to how Improved Weapons Finesse from the Deepwood Stalker tree gives dexterity to damage. Although this may have to cause a DC reduction from AA, since monkchers with 70+ wisdom would be paralyzing everything, it is something that should be considered.

Wisdom to damage would also have nice synergy with Clerics and Favored Souls of the Silver Flame, who use the Warpriest tree. A Favored Soul elf with Arcane Archer would be great with fire spellpower working with fire imbued arrows. Anyway, if nothing else, I would like to see how this would change the damage output for various builds under the current balancing changes being proposed. I'd like to see a quantitative comparison of the damage, and whether or not the devs think it's a good idea.

[Basura_Grande]

I'm on the fence about the Holy Sword change. While it does give a large incentive to roll a TWF character that isn't utilizing Holy Sword and Dance of Death, it hurts all TWF Paladins. Is there a way to scale back Holy Sword Tempests without hitting TWF Paladins in the process?

Have something in one of the KoTC tier 5s allow your Holy Sword Spell top apply to your off-hand weapon.

[JOTMON]

completly agree, everything will after this pass (regarding armor) look the following : 2 rog or 2 mnk / 3 paladin / rest something else, do you really want to go back to that ? because that's not gonna be a maybe but a certain given ....

if you have the choice between some more prr (maybe 1-2% more since its on DR and zero protection from magic attacks vs a chance not reducing the dmg by some % but to 0 if you make the save everyone will pull out their pyjama's from their stowed place). Not to add to this, that all this hurts are gonna be new chars (1st, 2nd ....) since all "old" chars have so many PL they will get good Dodge, as well as PRR + MRR even in Pyjama's .....

As for the WL, he isn't over-performing because of its dps, its plain and simple because you don't have to think do i have sp to use my blast's if i use them now ... and way too much temp-HP with way too short reuse time. If you want to adjust wl to a useable level, leave the dps as it is, maybe even adjust it upwards a bit in Epics (they are dropping very bad in epics already, and will be off much worse after this) and better change the following :
1.) ASF affects the Blast's and all shapes, bursts and so on
2.) give Blasts, Bursts a sp cost, maybe 1 for the blast 2-5 for the bursts
3.) change shining through to a reasonable value (maybe 1-2 min reuse and con x (wl/2), which would also reduce the builds just taking 5 lvls of wl for just getting bursts + shining through)

1. ) This was tagged as a known issue
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/150534-Official-Known-Issues
•Arcane Spell Failure incorrectly fails to apply to basic attack forms of Eldritch Blast.

2. no. its a warlock thing. no SP.. ..
It could use more focus on balancing the curve.. warlocks are Eldritch OP early in heroics and weaker endgame epics.

3 Its a T5 Enhancement line Capstone that locks out other T5 enhancements gimping with the wl/2 factor would take it off the list as a multi-class choice.. no thanks.
It would be like making AA Arrow of Slaying a chance of proc based on % of Ranger levels.. or any other T5 capstone as a % of class levels.. it would be bad for multi-classing overall..
could double the cooldown time.

[patang01]

completly agree, everything will after this pass (regarding armor) look the following : 2 rog or 2 mnk / 3 paladin / rest something else, do you really want to go back to that ? because that's not gonna be a maybe but a certain given ....

if you have the choice between some more prr (maybe 1-2% more since its on DR and zero protection from magic attacks vs a chance not reducing the dmg by some % but to 0 if you make the save everyone will pull out their pyjama's from their stowed place). Not to add to this, that all this hurts are gonna be new chars (1st, 2nd ....) since all "old" chars have so many PL they will get good Dodge, as well as PRR + MRR even in Pyjama's .....

As for the WL, he isn't over-performing because of its dps, its plain and simple because you don't have to think do i have sp to use my blast's if i use them now ... and way too much temp-HP with way too short reuse time. If you want to adjust wl to a useable level, leave the dps as it is, maybe even adjust it upwards a bit in Epics (they are dropping very bad in epics already, and will be off much worse after this) and better change the following :
1.) ASF affects the Blast's and all shapes, bursts and so on
2.) give Blasts, Bursts a sp cost, maybe 1 for the blast 2-5 for the bursts
3.) change shining through to a reasonable value (maybe 1-2 min reuse and con x (wl/2), which would also reduce the builds just taking 5 lvls of wl for just getting bursts + shining through)

If you start adding SP cost to it, it sieze being anything meaningful Warlock. I see what you get there but the objection usually comes from people who don't play Warlocks, not from people who does. Yes, they're great in Heroic. But that's only because a majority of heroic quest are from before the enhancements overpass/release of Warlock. Adjusting Warlock based on quests most classes can dominate seems silly considering that it's not true when you look at the latest heroic quests and definitely not in Epic.

It's so dreadfully dumb to balance a class based on the fact it's easy to auto attack. A balance should be based on over performance, not the objections of outsiders envying a class. If you want lots of damage and crit, look at Shiradi casting Savants. At best the crits I see on Warlock are similar to something I see on average DPS melee. So 600-800 at the most. Meanwhile every magic missile burst will easily proc for thousands in damage. And even as Shiradi a Warlock will never have the same proc rate.

[Bennum]

If you start adding SP cost to it, it sieze being anything meaningful Warlock. I see what you get there but the objection usually comes from people who don't play Warlocks, not from people who does. Yes, they're great in Heroic. But that's only because a majority of heroic quest are from before the enhancements overpass/release of Warlock. Adjusting Warlock based on quests most classes can dominate seems silly considering that it's not true when you look at the latest heroic quests and definitely not in Epic.

It's so dreadfully dumb to balance a class based on the fact it's easy to auto attack. A balance should be based on over performance, not the objections of outsiders envying a class. If you want lots of damage and crit, look at Shiradi casting Savants. At best the crits I see on Warlock are similar to something I see on average DPS melee. So 600-800 at the most. Meanwhile every magic missile burst will easily proc for thousands in damage. And even as Shiradi a Warlock will never have the same proc rate.

Yup these nerfs are based on the overreactions of a few very vocal players. Warlocks were fine if anything the Enlightened Spirit needs to be made less desirable. Just look at the ratio of warlocks that are T5 ES compared to the others. On Thelanis I have only seen 2 Warlocks excluding myself that were not T5 ES since it came out.

[PermaBanned]

Exactly. You'll see a small decrease in number of attacks (which at 26% is pretty much spot on where we want to be), and the large boosts in Ranged Power to compensate. The strategy of fishing for vorpals (similar to fishing for saving throw rolls of 1 to exaggerate the effectiveness of CC) will be slightly less effective while DPS will be close to live.

Sev~I realize video games aren't real life, but would you call a 26% reduction of your paycheck a "small decrease?" Me either. By the same vein, I have to wonder just what numbers you're talking about when you say "effective DPS will be close to live." If you call 26% less attacks is a "small decrease" then I have no trouble imagining that you may consider 26% less DPS "close." As always, it'll be interesting to see how this actually plays out - with plays being the key word. I don't care two licks for speed tests vs training dummy kobolds; in the words of Mr. Miyagi: "boards don't hit back" and thus your prowess vs boards counts for naught.

[BloodLilly2]

Greetings.

We've seen a lot of community feedback, both public and private, about our ongoing plans for balance. These are some changes we are considering to increase game balance.

As with any post that outlines power reductions (aka nerfs) I am sure there will be a lot of players looking for explanations and our thoughts and results on balance that led to these changes. I will be following up this post with more details that talk about why some of these changes are being implemented.

***

Holy Sword (Paladin)
This is now a spell that affects the paladin and buffs whatever melee weapon is being wielded in the main hand.
It no longer persists on your weapon but instead buffs the melee weapon you are holding in your main hand. (Yes, this buffs your two handed weapons.)
It no longer affects missile weapons.
It no longer can be used to buff off hand weapons or shields.
If you change weapons the spell will drop off the unequipped weapon and instead be applied to the newly equipped weapon.

Blood Strength (Barbarian Ravager)
The portion of this enhancement that heals the user when they kill an opponent now has a 1 second internal cooldown.

Critical Rage (Barbarian Ravager)
The bonus to critical threat range is now a competence bonus.

Two weapon fighting animations have been fixed so there is no longer a weird jump on the fourth animation. This has made the fourth attack slightly quicker.

Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Improved Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Greater Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.

Doubleshot values over 100% now have a chance of producing a third attack. The chance is equal to the amount the value exceeds 100. A doubleshot value of 130, for example, would always produce one extra shot and have a 30% chance to produce a third shot.

(Doublestrike will still cap at 100 for technical reasons.)

Repeating Crossbows and Doubleshot
Fixed a bug where Doubleshot was not being reduced for repeating crossbows. (Doubleshot chance is divided by 3 for repeating crossbows.)

Manyshot
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 20 seconds you add your (base attack bonus * 4) to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. This ability puts Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 2 minutes.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

Ten Thousand Stars
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 30 seconds you add your Wisdom ability score to your Ranged Power and you add your monk level * 5 to your Doubleshot. This ability puts Manyshot on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 1 minute.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

Mechanical Reloader (Rogue Mechanic)
The alacrity for non-repeating crossbows is now 30%. (Was 40%)

Pulverizer (Legendary Dreadnought)
The bonus to critical threat range for bludgeoning weapons is now an Insight bonus.

Improved Critical
These feats now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

Keen
This loot effect now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

Armor Changes
The amount of Physical Resist Rating that armor provides has been changed.
* Heavy armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 2) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Medium armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1.5) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Light Armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
Fixed a bug where players were getting Physical Resist Rating for armor with which they were not proficient.

(Note: The Physical Resist Rating and Magical Resist Rating offered by shields remain unchanged.)

As a result of dialing back armor, some fighter only feats that will boost their effectiveness with armor and add to tactical DCs will also be included.

Tactical Training
Requires Fighter Level 4
You gain +2 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 8
You gain +4 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Mastery
Requires Fighter Level 12
You gain +6 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Supremacy
Requires Fighter Level 16
You gain +8 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Notes: All tactical feats stack for a total of +20. The lower level feats are not prerequisites for the higher level feats so a higher level fighter could save a feat if he/she wanted to skip Tactical Training and forego the +2 but still have access to Tatical Supremacy.

Heavy Armor Training
Requires Fighter Level 2
You gain +3 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 6
You gain +6 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Master
Requires Fighter Level 10
You gain +9 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Champion
Requires Fighter Level 14
You gain +12 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Notes: All Heavy Armor feats stack for a total of +30. The lower level feats are not prerequisites for the higher level feats so a higher level fighter could save a feat if he/she wanted to skip Heavy Armor Training and forego the +3 and still have access to Heavy Armor Champion.


Divine Grace (Paladin)
Divine Grace now provides a maximum bonus equal to 2 + (Paladin level x 3).

Eldritch Blast and other enhancements (Warlock)
The spellpower scaling for Eldritch Blast and several enhancements has been reduced.

Spellpower scaling of Warlock Abilities


Ability
Old
New


Eldritch Blast
150%
130%


Eldritch Blast Cone
130%
130%


Eldritch Blast Chain
110%
95%


Eldritch Blast Aura
150%
130%


Stricken (Souleater)
150%
125%


Consume (Souleater)
150%
125%


Eldritch Burst (Enlightened Spirit)
120%
100%


Spirit Blast (Enlightened Spirit)
120%
100%



I will be following up this post with some details on our thoughts on balance and design.

Sev~

These changes seem to have arisen due to some of the players in this game taking their completionist toons with all their past lives and running the new content with their favorite godly build and then crying because they did it in under an hour. This seems excessive to the rest of the players like myself who don't have these toons and ran the new content at level in party and still found it very challenging to complete at elite. If these balance changes happen it seems that it will cater mostly, to my estimate, of those 10% that I described in the first sentence while all the new players and people like myself who don't have those past will suffer and rage quit due to not having the past lives to help them survive. This is also assuming that the mobs are going to stay at their current difficulty.

If these changes are going to take place then the mobs need to be down-scaled as well or else a lot of people, like myself, will play other games and not have to pay for VIP for a game that they can't play due to having unbeatable monsters.

Now as for the proposed changes by title:

Blood Rage:

Seems good so that my battlecleric and other clerics will need to actually heal them. This seems like it can make FOTP more challenging.

Two Weapon Fighting:

This seems excessive. Instead of making them essentially useless why not give them speed bonuses? You're supposed to be going fast when wielding two weapons. Maybe give 2-5% bonus to attack speed per the feat taken ex: TWF= 3%, ITWF= 3%, GTWF= 3%, PTWF= 3% for a total of 12% to attack speed. This won't break the game but will still offer DPS builds that use this feat an incentive and also won't make the feat completely useless to grab.

Manyshot:

I think that is will kill the ranger class if combined with the TWF chain. So all the work to improve the ranger class was for nothing if ranger is getting nerfed to this extreme. Why not grant the manyshot arrows based on the amount of ranger lvls a character has? Every 5 ranger lvls grants one manyshot arrow perhaps. This way it won't over-power many builds while still offering the incentive to make a pure ranger.

Improved Critical:

As long as the named items that I spent hours farming for aren't going to be worse than the common loot then I'm happy. Otherwise looks like the feat is just written to how the weapons are normally based on their crit range.

Armor Changes:

Oh boy. Now what's the point of my builds wearing heavy armor? Don't take MRR away completely it does help nicely. Maybe reduce it so that for every 10PRR it is the equivalent of 2MRR. Otherwise I see many rage quitting due to the mob casters. Or just making all my toons wear light armor and get evasion with rogue splash like before this was brought into the game.

Fighter Feats:

They look nice but if you are going to get rid of MRR then may I suggest that they be open for paladin as well? Paladin tanks will need the MRR as well as fighter tanks.

The other topics I don't know much about seeing how I haven't played warlock and don't use keen.

[Hafeal]

Sev & Varg -

Well, a couple of days away and the forums explode!

I understand the intent and design. I have a hard time "visioning" the outcome of these changes; just not my thing. I will let you and the math crunching players sort out "too much" v "too little" dps arguments. MY life has enough going on I will lean and trust your judgment to keep an open mind to further refinement as needed - as you have done.

On a more global scale, I do have some concerns:

1) I do not want to see the diversity of character options narrowed. Moar is better. My HOPE over these refinements, is that this pass will not encourage everyone to specific, over-powered builds. Reality v theory will have to play out as some respected players in this thread have raised some serious concerns over Dojo testing v real game environment testing; so continue to keep an open mind for future refinements.

2) Pure Fighter has NEVER been a popular class and has never been a preferred choice for multi-classing as I recall. So, if you are going to make Fighters more viable (hurray!), you need to account for Epic, orange and red-named. Either have a chance to proc tactical feats or some other compensating factor. Personally, I think Fighters should be able to TWF, THF, or S&B as needed - that is what they do, adjust to circumstance. When you redo this class, when it comes to melee, they should be 2nd in line to premier classes but really, really good for things like Pally tank, Tempest TWF, or Barb DPS - ALL at the same time. That is what makes the "boring", non-magical Fighter fun to play.

3) Weapons. I read the change to keen and crit range as Jotmon did and then saw others viewed it a different way. Keen is a weapon effect and crit range is an enhancement. Are we blending them?


Improved Critical
These feats now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

Keen
This loot effect now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.


I am not clear. The bonus 'type' is not named - I am assuming this is being done to stop stacking effects? If not, why this change? Even as explained, I would reverse the order of the crits, because, bottom line: I would love to see less used weapons get a boost - again - more weapon diversity is good. I love that my rogue can use daggers or kukris now and now just rapiers and short swords. But "all other weapons" will continue to be "weapons never used" without some help.

4) Armor. I like the Armor changes. With BAB added to the equation, we can get rid of casters running around in heavy plate, perhaps. I like removing MRR from armor - but - can you make it a bonus for some named armors in the future? I like the "buff" to shield users, keeping MRR on them.

Thanks for your work, your feedback and patience.

[Myraktar]

Fantastic!

Over the last year or so, the power creep in the game has been getting uncomfortable. While it initially seems like a good idea to 'add' power to balance classes, doing so repeatedly invariably results in characters that are too powerful for the game. Despite people assuming that their 'more powerful' character will be 'more fun', they quickly realize that the game is not as exciting for them as it used to be.

The addition of 'Reaper' difficulty will address this to some extent, but any good DM understands that s/he needs to limit the payer's characters power in order to increase the long-term enjoyment of the game. So my request is for the dev's to nerf my toons aggressively. Take away ALL of the power creep that make the game less fun. I'll have to remake and rebuild my characters, and I will ENJOY that. It isn't the 'having' of a powerful character that is fun, but it is the process of striving to make them powerful that creates true enjoyment.

Thank you for the first step in many that will make the game interesting and engaging over the long term.

Best,
Myraktar



Greetings.

We've seen a lot of community feedback, both public and private, about our ongoing plans for balance. These are some changes we are considering to increase game balance.

As with any post that outlines power reductions (aka nerfs) I am sure there will be a lot of players looking for explanations and our thoughts and results on balance that led to these changes. I will be following up this post with more details that talk about why some of these changes are being implemented.

***

I will be following up this post with some details on our thoughts on balance and design.

Sev~

[Nestroy]

1. ) This was tagged as a known issue
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/150534-Official-Known-Issues
•Arcane Spell Failure incorrectly fails to apply to basic attack forms of Eldritch Blast.

2. no. its a warlock thing. no SP.. ..
It could use more focus on balancing the curve.. warlocks are Eldritch OP early in heroics and weaker endgame epics.

3 Its a T5 Enhancement line Capstone that locks out other T5 enhancements gimping with the wl/2 factor would take it off the list as a multi-class choice.. no thanks.
It would be like making AA Arrow of Slaying a chance of proc based on % of Ranger levels.. or any other T5 capstone as a % of class levels.. it would be bad for multi-classing overall..
could double the cooldown time.

1.) We all know that. That´s why I insisted on fixing that bug instead of insisting to introduce a new mechanic.

2.) It´s not a WL thing. DDO WL is so much off the original pnp thing... There has to be some corrective to the power a WL brings to the table in heroic content. Something that does not outright kill the EE capabilities of WL in endgame. In EE DPS rules. Nothing else is important there. Nothing. Kill things faster than they kill you. Simple. Killing DPS in endgame on a class kills the class. Simple as that. So something else has to be introduced instead of killing endgame WL DPS. And since WLs in DDO are already off the original by a wide margin, any introduction of making blasts cost SP is not too far off anyways. If you like, keep the basic blast free of SP costs. And make all else costly. Blast Chain? 3 SP. Aura? 1 SP per tick. You get the idea.

3.) It´s the single one T5 enhancement that is sought after. There aren´t many WL builds (or builds with WL splashed) that miss to get that said enhancement. Why? Because it´s so much OP that it is a MUST to take. Ofc there are players going the hard way. My best regards to them. All else are just picking the low hanging fruits of OPedness.

Now, for those telling me I am not playing WLs. I am currently on my 3rd WL life with my main. And I play or have been playing another 3 WLs. And yes, I played 2 builds thru epic levels. I name WL and namely ES T5 / Shining Through absolutely overpowered! Not the DPS of a WL is OP. It´s the whole package. it´s the survivability. It´s the unbalanced DPS in late heroics. Epic and epic endgame EE the WL is just fine. it´s not great a build neither with DPS nor survivability. But neither are Wiz or Sorc. WL gets hard to play EE on quest levels 23+. Before this it´s a breeze. Afterwards it becomes muddled.

And yes, WL is OP in ToEE heroic elite and in the new U27 and U28 packs on heroic elite. it´s about one of the few builds that can take on these quests on level in elite (lv. 7 for ToEE, lv 13 and 14 respectively for the U27/28 quests) and succeeed without one single death. This IS OP. But try this on lv. 28 WL solo in EE ^^.

[PpalP]

Fantastic!

Over the last year or so, the power creep in the game has been getting uncomfortable. While it initially seems like a good idea to 'add' power to balance classes, doing so repeatedly invariably results in characters that are too powerful for the game. Despite people assuming that their 'more powerful' character will be 'more fun', they quickly realize that the game is not as exciting for them as it used to be.

The addition of 'Reaper' difficulty will address this to some extent, but any good DM understands that s/he needs to limit the payer's characters power in order to increase the long-term enjoyment of the game. So my request is for the dev's to nerf my toons aggressively. Take away ALL of the power creep that make the game less fun. I'll have to remake and rebuild my characters, and I will ENJOY that. It isn't the 'having' of a powerful character that is fun, but it is the process of striving to make them powerful that creates true enjoyment.

Thank you for the first step in many that will make the game interesting and engaging over the long term.

Best,
Myraktar

Two points:
1.- Your first post in 3 years and say this kind of things? seems odds to me

2.- Fun & enjoyment is SUBJETIVE, so don't tell the rest of the world that this or that is fun or uncomfortable. Of course you have all the right to express YOUR point of view (like the rest of us). I don't play uber builds, I don't play EE, and I don't mind that uber players did that in few minutes; I only care for my enjoyment of the game, so if my normal build take more time to kill every mob and the quest requires more time to finish, you could imagine the result, right? : )

I can't connect to Lam (little free time, too much work) so probably I see the nerf when comes to live; anyway, listening to the arguments Devs gives about the "testing" of TWF, I can only hope the worse : (

[PermaBanned]

Will the PRR/MRR changes affect the below shield ability?

Characters who are proficient with shields can now use larger shields for defense against magical attacks that would normally require a Reflex Saving Throw. Instead of using your Reflex Saving Throw to mitigate the damage, you can deflect the damage off of your shield. Physical and Magical Resistance Rating multipliers against magical attacks that normally allow a Reflex Saving Throw are as follows: ? Buckler: No additional mitigation
? Light Shield: No additional Mitigation
? Heavy Shield: 2.0
? Tower Shield: 2.0

I conclude that this means that shield users in heavy armor loses 24PRR and 60MRR against these magical attacks. Was this intended?If I'm understanding them correctly, the idea is that Large & Tower shields will function exactly as they do now - but the numbers they multiply by two will be smaller.


Really? Please. Not this s**t, again.
I really hope you're just being sarcastic.

3 years have we been asking about this without an answer.
Nope, not sarcasm. When I first read the description, my first thought was not that "The word melee is a typo and they really meant all attacks."


"Everything in DDO works exactly as the description text states." - No one ever
Lol, I actually agree with ^that^ completely. However, I'm fairly certain the text indicates how it was designed/intended to work. That said, to have left it as-is since it's inception - and w/o official comment at that - and to change it now(ish) as a bug fix would be asinine.

So in the end, I'd hazard a guess that we're actually in agreement on what the end result should be even if not on what the origonal intention was.

[patang01]

Yup these nerfs are based on the overreactions of a few very vocal players. Warlocks were fine if anything the Enlightened Spirit needs to be made less desirable. Just look at the ratio of warlocks that are T5 ES compared to the others. On Thelanis I have only seen 2 Warlocks excluding myself that were not T5 ES since it came out.

That is really it; seems the objection of people marrying melee and ES translated into somehow slapping chain casting Warlocks around. Chain is not that remarkable. Running backwards firing chain means also missing a lot of the initial shots due to slow firing speed. It's the additional hits that are almost dead on. Second, spell selection prevent Warlocks from being well rounded. My Savant had many different DPS spells that could fire with constant speed without missing and a very solid dancing ball or web to CC anything. The main difference is the auto attack nature and a slight bump in survivability. But if we're looking at raw dps a savant will be effective from the first epic level to the last. That's not true with Warlock.

[Thar]

Easy

Some of these nerfs are because "the game is too easy" from comments from the devs or players.

I would disagree if i was a new player without past lives, gear, etc. until you get over that hurdle of getting up to speed a first life or 2nd life or even 3rd life character could feel behind the curve.

1) past lives matter. for extra build points for DCs, con, etc.
2) past live classes matter - small boosts but who wouldn't like 9 prr from purple drag night?
3) quests - yes i ran this quest 100 times in search of the boots of wonderous power... i know trap is here, big boss is here, i can skip these mobs by doing this...
4) ED - getting all the trees completed serves a big purpose for twists and abilities. people love blitz...
5) crafting - it takes months to build something if you didn't cheat.
6) raids - it takes months to get to 20 runs to get something. raid bypasses help but who has 1000s of them? probably those that cheated.
7) shard ah - where all the "good" stuff is. while you can save up by selling little items over time. who has the most shards? those that cheated. for the good and bad of the community in this case.
8) combos - this combo of cleave, tree, etc is super awesome. combinations of different abillites not intended to work together will always occur. I just heard of a build with unlimited smites (legally). you can't stop ingenuity.

none of the above is changing with the "balance" pass. those cheaters will still have the power they obtained. many could be those calling the game to easy.

if the game is too easy why don't we see:

more completionists?
more lfm for ee vs en von3, wiz king, etc.
more raids not on EN
more lfm for difficult quests? ie stormhorns, maddness, etc?
more consistent wins in new raids? you can tell when a low dps group is pug'd. lag doesn't cause all fails...

and furthermore. if the game doesn't get easier as you gain this or that. what is the purpose of gaining new toys or abilities? at some point even new people can be uber. share the throne people... they earned it too.

[patang01]

1.) We all know that. That´s why I insisted on fixing that bug instead of insisting to introduce a new mechanic.

2.) It´s not a WL thing. DDO WL is so much off the original pnp thing... There has to be some corrective to the power a WL brings to the table in heroic content. Something that does not outright kill the EE capabilities of WL in endgame. In EE DPS rules. Nothing else is important there. Nothing. Kill things faster than they kill you. Simple. Killing DPS in endgame on a class kills the class. Simple as that. So something else has to be introduced instead of killing endgame WL DPS. And since WLs in DDO are already off the original by a wide margin, any introduction of making blasts cost SP is not too far off anyways. If you like, keep the basic blast free of SP costs. And make all else costly. Blast Chain? 3 SP. Aura? 1 SP per tick. You get the idea.

3.) It´s the single one T5 enhancement that is sought after. There aren´t many WL builds (or builds with WL splashed) that miss to get that said enhancement. Why? Because it´s so much OP that it is a MUST to take. Ofc there are players going the hard way. My best regards to them. All else are just picking the low hanging fruits of OPedness.

Now, for those telling me I am not playing WLs. I am currently on my 3rd WL life with my main. And I play or have been playing another 3 WLs. And yes, I played 2 builds thru epic levels. I name WL and namely ES T5 / Shining Through absolutely overpowered! Not the DPS of a WL is OP. It´s the whole package. it´s the survivability. It´s the unbalanced DPS in late heroics. Epic and epic endgame EE the WL is just fine. it´s not great a build neither with DPS nor survivability. But neither are Wiz or Sorc. WL gets hard to play EE on quest levels 23+. Before this it´s a breeze. Afterwards it becomes muddled.

And yes, WL is OP in ToEE heroic elite and in the new U27 and U28 packs on heroic elite. it´s about one of the few builds that can take on these quests on level in elite (lv. 7 for ToEE, lv 13 and 14 respectively for the U27/28 quests) and succeeed without one single death. This IS OP. But try this on lv. 28 WL solo in EE ^^.

The cost of blast is a terrible idea. Warlocks get a fraction of SP compared to others and at least a third of their shots on the move will miss. You'll end up draining most of your SP eating through mobs until you get to the HP giant meatbags and then you'll run dry half way through its HP and start chugging pots. In reality it would make Warlocks even more of a one hit wonder. Warlocks would forgo basic buffs and other features and save it for the blast.

Personally there's nothing wrong with the blast at all. What people seem to argue against is the nature of the blast. Without even articulate an objection to the fact that it's subpar most other magical attacks in the sense of magnitude.

Using a warlock is a much slower killer than most other arcanes. It can never rival the superiority in CC and instakilling such as a wiz and it will never rival a Savant in Nuking. And it does not have the diversity of buffing like any of the other arcanes. It's a tool to shoot stuff and it does it reliably. It's the hybrid melees that makes it wonky since there's not enough trade off. A straight up nuking Warlock is way behind the power curb. But as a hybrid its survivability combined with aura and such with melee makes it very powerful.

My suggestion, make the increase in damage die progressivly stronger the more levels a Warlock has. Meaning top load the pact and blast die. Make it the same in total but offer it more often in increased levels and less so in lower levels. That will also help with the Heroic business. And it'll make a deeper investment in it more important for the purpose of better dps than now.

[patang01]

Easy

Some of these nerfs are because "the game is too easy" from comments from the devs or players.

I would disagree if i was a new player without past lives, gear, etc. until you get over that hurdle of getting up to speed a first life or 2nd life or even 3rd life character could feel behind the curve.

1) past lives matter. for extra build points for DCs, con, etc.
2) past live classes matter - small boosts but who wouldn't like 9 prr from purple drag night?
3) quests - yes i ran this quest 100 times in search of the boots of wonderous power... i know trap is here, big boss is here, i can skip these mobs by doing this...
4) ED - getting all the trees completed serves a big purpose for twists and abilities. people love blitz...
5) crafting - it takes months to build something if you didn't cheat.
6) raids - it takes months to get to 20 runs to get something. raid bypasses help but who has 1000s of them? probably those that cheated.
7) shard ah - where all the "good" stuff is. while you can save up by selling little items over time. who has the most shards? those that cheated. for the good and bad of the community in this case.
8) combos - this combo of cleave, tree, etc is super awesome. combinations of different abillites not intended to work together will always occur. I just heard of a build with unlimited smites (legally). you can't stop ingenuity.

none of the above is changing with the "balance" pass. those cheaters will still have the power they obtained. many could be those calling the game to easy.

if the game is too easy why don't we see:

more completionists?
more lfm for ee vs en von3, wiz king, etc.
more raids not on EN
more lfm for difficult quests? ie stormhorns, maddness, etc?
more consistent wins in new raids? you can tell when a low dps group is pug'd. lag doesn't cause all fails...

and furthermore. if the game doesn't get easier as you gain this or that. what is the purpose of gaining new toys or abilities? at some point even new people can be uber. share the throne people... they earned it too.

Lets nerf completionists and past lives. I don't play exploiter and flavor of the month classes. And I can't rampage through EE's. I'm not a bad player, I just play to have fun, not be on the bleeding edge of best DPS and such.

[Basura_Grande]

Bad for cleaving barbarians.
The proc heals is the only thing that keeps the barbarian alive when jumping into a mass of mobs and full on rage dps cleaves.

This is something that we never should have been able to do on EE in the first place.

[Gothdom]

Ok, went to lammania, did a couple of tests... and that previous statement posted of the forums rings true : "These changes seem to have arisen due to some of the players in this game taking their completionist toons with all their past lives and running the new content with their favorite godly build and then crying because they did it in under an hour."

TWF on an assassin rogue first lifer is not worth it. In fact, first lifer are so gimped that it takes the fun away from the game from most classes.

Warlocks were fine, except sometimes in heroics, still the changes aren't warrented for epics. Maybe a level 20 boost instead of the scaling? Or different scaling that we already have but with the same end result?

Of course, these changes will bring more healers in teams, but it will also bring back the dreaded "BYOH" and new players will be excluded.

EDIT: This nerf patch is very Anti-new player.

[Thar]

Lets nerf completionists and past lives. I don't play exploiter and flavor of the month classes. And I can't rampage through EE's. I'm not a bad player, I just play to have fun, not be on the bleeding edge of best DPS and such.

not saying you are but why nerf? if you can't rampage through EEs then the game isn't "easy" and doesn't need half of these "balance" updates. some are good. some are good in the opinion of the dev's. EE's can be done with careful pulls, tactics, CC. how often do you see CC in breaking the ranks?

the best balance update is to make it so people can't cheat. that raids are up more than a month or two to get the best items vs doing 40 runs the first week. as a result, more items need to be BTA for events at minimum.

[Nestroy]

The cost of blast is a terrible idea. Warlocks get a fraction of SP compared to others and at least a third of their shots on the move will miss. You'll end up draining most of your SP eating through mobs until you get to the HP giant meatbags and then you'll run dry half way through its HP and start chugging pots. In reality it would make Warlocks even more of a one hit wonder. Warlocks would forgo basic buffs and other features and save it for the blast.

Personally there's nothing wrong with the blast at all. What people seem to argue against is the nature of the blast. Without even articulate an objection to the fact that it's subpar most other magical attacks in the sense of magnitude.

Using a warlock is a much slower killer than most other arcanes. It can never rival the superiority in CC and instakilling such as a wiz and it will never rival a Savant in Nuking. And it does not have the diversity of buffing like any of the other arcanes. It's a tool to shoot stuff and it does it reliably. It's the hybrid melees that makes it wonky since there's not enough trade off. A straight up nuking Warlock is way behind the power curb. But as a hybrid its survivability combined with aura and such with melee makes it very powerful.

My suggestion, make the increase in damage die progressivly stronger the more levels a Warlock has. Meaning top load the pact and blast die. Make it the same in total but offer it more often in increased levels and less so in lower levels. That will also help with the Heroic business. And it'll make a deeper investment in it more important for the purpose of better dps than now.

The WL is already OP in late heroics. Backloading the damage would make WL easy prey on low levels (as currently with lv. 1-3) and would even add to the OPedness on later heroics. Since damage does not scale into epics (except for the extra feat) there is little sense in even making an already strong class stronger in heroics.

Where the WL would need some beef would be epics and there endgame EE. I do not know how this would be possible to do (with the exception of even more feats) but this would be needed. Perhaps let WL scale with Draconic or Magister EDs? Anyway, keep the hands off heroic DPS as to make that kind of DPS even stronger. Its top of the DPS pyramid already.

As for your blast - really, how about making basic Blast free of SP and adding SP for the blast cleaves and chain blasts? This would solve many problems with the perceived OPedness of WL while helping to retain the already sub par end game DPS. By the way, when a WL reaches about lv. 20, the usual WL has well above 1000 SP, so even with blasts costing one SP, or even chain blasts costing 3 SP this would not be much of a SP cost for the usual quest anyways. Think of it, a 1000 blasts in lv. 20 quests... On lv. 28 the usual WL has about 1.5k SP or even more. There are quests and raids that are low on shrines, but that is a problem most caster classes face anyways. Nope, the SP cost would only be needed to cut back on the massive power level of WLs in heroic content.

[Gothdom]

not saying you are but why nerf? if you can't rampage through EEs then the game isn't "easy" and doesn't need half of these "balance" updates. some are good. some are good in the opinion of the dev's. EE's can be done with careful pulls, tactics, CC. how often do you see CC in breaking the ranks?

the best balance update is to make it so people can't cheat. that raids are up more than a month or two to get the best items vs doing 40 runs the first week. as a result, more items need to be BTA for events at minimum.

Yeah, I think I'll apply for next Player's Council so stuff like this patch gets stopped before it ever get out of the ideas plane. The more I test play stuff, the more I find it very unpleaseant. Sev will understand this: The game is becoming no fun with this patch. I'm not casual, I play a lot, but it's taking away fun from playing. Ask Jerry, dying is part of the fun, but not like this.

[PermaBanned]

EDIT: This nerf patch is very Anti-new player.
Correction: it's Anti-everyone ^^

[Nestroy]

Correction: it's Anti-everyone ^^

Yeah, but we vets know how to cope with that. Newer players do not.

[Walking_Ride]

So this nerf basically affected my twf paladin 4 times in a row ?

First he lost a critical threat range on both weapons for a total of +2 loss.

Secoundly, holy sword only works on the main hand weapon when rangers can have their own version of holy sword through :

Deflect Arrows: You gain the benefits of the Deflect Arrows feat while dual wielding, knocking aside one incoming projectile that would have struck you every 6 seconds. +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier while dual wielding weapons.
Requires: Graceful Death, Ranger level 12

AND

Advanced Sneak Attack: +1 Sneak Attack Die. +10 Positive Spell Power. You gain a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range with your equipped weapons. (This does not apply to Shields or Unarmed). Your attacks now bypass 10% fortification.
Requires: Called Shot, Ranger level 12

Thirdly, the critical threat range effect from exalted smite was also reduced by +2 for not doubling with improved critical.

Exalted Smite: Active: An improved smite that adds +1/+1/+2 to your weapon's critical damage multiplier and 0/+1/+2 to your weapon's critical threat range.

Lastly, twf feats not providing melee power anymore.

So basically you are trying to say that every melee build except paladins should be specialized in wielding two handed weapons ?

What kind of joke is that, developers ? Finally after several years of playing a thf toon i for once wanted to play a twf paladin build i enjoy but now you are doing this ?

WHAT POINT IS THERE PLAYING A TWF PALADIN TOON AT ALL WHEN HOLY SWORD DOES NOT EVEN AFFECT YOUR OFF HAND WEAPON ?

Pure Rangers are now 60% ahead of twf paladins dps wise (30% before the holy sword nerf ) due to :

- As mentioned above, deflect arrows and advancing sneack attack tier 4 core abilities affecting both weapons main and off hand.

- Whirlwind: +5% Melee Doublestrike when dual wielding, +5 Incorporeality (stacking), +10% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding.

- Dervish: +4 Dexterity. +25% chance to doublestrike with your off-hand while dual wielding. While wearing light or no armor: +10 Melee Power, Physical Resistance Rating, and Magical Resistance Rating.

That means rangers are ahead of paladins by +40% doublestrike and a +1 crit multiplier/+1 crit threat ranger working on your offhand weapon.


Because of a little defense from sacred defender +25 prr / +25 mrr you are nerfing holy sword yet again ? You are aware that a pure ranger can get the same benefit defense wise through the capstone ability and prr/mrr per core ability let alone 5% stacking incorporeality, right ?

I am really going to cancel my vip subscription and delete the game if you are still considering gimping my only paladin build into crapiness :mad:.

[Grosbeak07]

Yeah, I think I'll apply for next Player's Council so stuff like this patch gets stopped before it ever get out of the ideas plane. The more I test play stuff, the more I find it very unpleaseant. Sev will understand this: The game is becoming no fun with this patch. I'm not casual, I play a lot, but it's taking away fun from playing. Ask Jerry, dying is part of the fun, but not like this.


Go for it, but I think you'll be might upset as to how the Player's Council works.

Who knows, perhaps the original dev ideas where even worse and what you got was the better option already.

[patang01]

not saying you are but why nerf? if you can't rampage through EEs then the game isn't "easy" and doesn't need half of these "balance" updates. some are good. some are good in the opinion of the dev's. EE's can be done with careful pulls, tactics, CC. how often do you see CC in breaking the ranks?

the best balance update is to make it so people can't cheat. that raids are up more than a month or two to get the best items vs doing 40 runs the first week. as a result, more items need to be BTA for events at minimum.

Why not? The truth is that it's the completionists with all the gear and probably flavor of the month builds that are driving the 'everything is easy' war cry. So if the issue is everything is easy we should just cut to the core and add a 'challenge' insanity level that denies them the use of past life stuff and gear.

I've tried several builds on Lam now and the more the carve away from Warlock the more trite and tedious it is playing Epic.

Plus the only thing I remotely found useful was to load some of the new armor and tactical DC feat on a pure vanguard fighter. Now those things function great but on the other hand DPS suffers. My ranger is going ranged; the damage mitigation gets smacked fairly well and I was running around in circles spot healing instead of fighting. At least with all ranged I avoid physical danger and can adjust for magic. Plus AA with burst and say increasing elemental damage seems to be the way.

It's true that spending the past year getting some okay weapons for the tempest revamp was a waste but I at least have a good enough bow for it.

The barbarian seems unchanged for most part. I don't think I have to worry about it. I'm dropping my vanguard pally and keeping my pure 2 handed one. It's pretty much what I thought. But then I don't do flavor builds and super DPS stuff so the changes have more effect on my toons than say the bleeding edge guys.

[Basura_Grande]

I am not sure how you are getting this unless you are completely avoiding doubleshot.

Sev~

Tempests who would toss a Manyshot when off-timer are taking a hit. But then again their melee was buffed so much recently I can't really complain about it.

[patang01]

The WL is already OP in late heroics. Backloading the damage would make WL easy prey on low levels (as currently with lv. 1-3) and would even add to the OPedness on later heroics. Since damage does not scale into epics (except for the extra feat) there is little sense in even making an already strong class stronger in heroics.

Where the WL would need some beef would be epics and there endgame EE. I do not know how this would be possible to do (with the exception of even more feats) but this would be needed. Perhaps let WL scale with Draconic or Magister EDs? Anyway, keep the hands off heroic DPS as to make that kind of DPS even stronger. Its top of the DPS pyramid already.

As for your blast - really, how about making basic Blast free of SP and adding SP for the blast cleaves and chain blasts? This would solve many problems with the perceived OPedness of WL while helping to retain the already sub par end game DPS. By the way, when a WL reaches about lv. 20, the usual WL has well above 1000 SP, so even with blasts costing one SP, or even chain blasts costing 3 SP this would not be much of a SP cost for the usual quest anyways. Think of it, a 1000 blasts in lv. 20 quests... On lv. 28 the usual WL has about 1.5k SP or even more. There are quests and raids that are low on shrines, but that is a problem most caster classes face anyways. Nope, the SP cost would only be needed to cut back on the massive power level of WLs in heroic content.

The issue that I think most seem to have with Warlock is one of the melee SE Warlocks that go in and smack everything with auras and burst. If they'd play a casting Warlock they'd know it'll start trailing behind in DPS towards the end. So if the issue are the auras and burst then a top loaded die would need a lot more investments in Warlock and stop people from investing greatly in say melee and haflway in Warlock. At least if they want an okay aura and burst.

I'm not worried about heroic content. Quite frankly it's old news. Adjusting Warlock because of how easy it is to swat heroic quest made prior to the enhancement overpass and Warlock is a folly. It's silly unless you also start redoing the heroic quests to be up to par. 'Cause the only thing that happens is that the Epic game becomes like with Arti - terrible. Arti does well in Heroic and start suffering past level 23 even with a full destiny.

[Spoonwelder]

I am not sure why you have that belief. We test end game characters in full end game gear on a variety of EDs both doing the Bruntsmash test and also grinding through our high end test kobolds. When we see videos we sometimes hunt down and make copies of those characters and use them to test DPS as well.

Sev~
I know the lead in to this was about manyshot/10k but the belief comes from our experience in game....my personal vendetta is the TWF hitbox that makes TWF frustrating to play and actually takes a significant mental shift in playstyle.

What I mean is I have to much more consciously plan my special attacks - say an adrenaline strike. I have to be wary of mobile mobs (casters, archers etc... especially bosses) that want to move away from you every few seconds - say the boss in Battle for Eveningstar - she moves every 5 seconds. So I have to wait until she moves - then make sure I am humping her leg before and hit her once (to make sure I am hitting her) before I hit adrenaline and then my left mouse button to attack and hope to all that is holy that it works and I get my burst damage. THF/SWF I don't have that issue and in fact I can safely hit my adrenaline while moving to her knowing my first strike will hit her.

So I have a real hard time believing that TWF tests out as top DPS unless played by someone who only plays TWF and just inherently makes all the perfect APM due to years of experience. I.e. perfect world scenarios that don't mirror real world experience.

Fix the hit box and I have absolutely no argument about the MP drop for TWF. The attack speed buff of 6% is easily lost to the hitbox variances.

Now if I get a boss who sits like a lump and lets me swing away yes my DPS will be better....but those are few and far between. Even something as simple as knockback loses a TWF more DPS than a THF/SWF as that first swing lands sooner.

Just my opinion but it is the reason I switched to Vangaurd S&B to get much more defense and nearly the same DPS as a TWF.

[PermaBanned]

Yeah, but we vets know how to cope with that. Newer players do not.
I doubt very much that new players are going to give a hoot about how much Max Uberness has been nerfed. They will not care that Bruntsmash and Kobold times have increased.

I think they'll visually notice the (4 down to 1 or 2 sets of #s) change in Manyshot, and notice they're taking a bit more damage, but not enough to cancle subs and scream "F.t.S! & I'm out!" at their monitor as they rage-uninstal the game. And of course, that's only the new players who are already here; the new players who come post patch won't know the difference... unless they read the forums ;)

[Walking_Ride]

Tempests who would toss a Manyshot when off-timer are taking a hit. But then again their melee was buffed so much recently I can't really complain about it.

Yes. We are talking about 60% more dps compared to a twf paladin now.

30% before they limited holy sword to work with main hand weapons only.

Only an idiot would consider going twf on a paladin now, thanks to severlin and his grand ideas.


THANKS FOR DESTROYING EVERY SINGLE TWF PALADIN, SEVERLIN !

THANK YOU SO MUCH :mad:

[jalont]

I know the lead in to this was about manyshot/10k but the belief comes from our experience in game....my personal vendetta is the TWF hitbox that makes TWF frustrating to play and actually takes a significant mental shift in playstyle.

What I mean is I have to much more consciously plan my special attacks - say an adrenaline strike. I have to be wary of mobile mobs (casters, archers etc... especially bosses) that want to move away from you every few seconds - say the boss in Battle for Eveningstar - she moves every 5 seconds. So I have to wait until she moves - then make sure I am humping her leg before and hit her once (to make sure I am hitting her) before I hit adrenaline and then my left mouse button to attack and hope to all that is holy that it works and I get my burst damage. THF/SWF I don't have that issue and in fact I can safely hit my adrenaline while moving to her knowing my first strike will hit her.

So I have a real hard time believing that TWF tests out as top DPS unless played by someone who only plays TWF and just inherently makes all the perfect APM due to years of experience. I.e. perfect world scenarios that don't mirror real world experience.

Fix the hit box and I have absolutely no argument about the MP drop for TWF. The attack speed buff of 6% is easily lost to the hitbox variances.

Now if I get a boss who sits like a lump and lets me swing away yes my DPS will be better....but those are few and far between. Even something as simple as knockback loses a TWF more DPS than a THF/SWF as that first swing lands sooner.

Just my opinion but it is the reason I switched to Vangaurd S&B to get much more defense and nearly the same DPS as a TWF.

You're overstating the hitbox issues. This game is so easy that you should be jumping in the middle of EE mobs and swinging while rotating in a circle. You don't "need" to take out casters. You don't "need" to line up attacks. This is DDO 2015. Jump in the middle of those EE mobs and heal through the punishment. They can't kill you anyways. Heck, when I play on my crappy laptop, I jump in the middle of EE mobs WHILE graphically stuttering and still don't die. THAT is where this game has gone. THAT is what the devs are trying to fix.

[oweieie]

If having 10 MRR on light armor, 20 MRR on medium armor and 30 MRR on heavy armor is too powerful, why did you add 25 stacking MRR to the mysterious remnant cloak?

These are the type of decisions that boggle my mind. it's ok to add stacking 25 MRR to a cloak, but on armor it's way too powerful.

From my perspective things seem very chaotic and haphazard.

Anyone can wear a cloak. Anyone not wearing heavy armor is now an idiot.

Not that it makes the least big of sense that wearing a breast plate and having a little disc on your arm is somehow going to intercept every lightning bolt and no monster can ever make an attack that doesn't hit both your shield and breastplate.

I seriously can't express enough how idiotic PRR and MRR are. The game has gone from a monk's capstone magical ability of 10 DR being godly to having a shield and some armor on intercepting every attack in ToEE and knocking over 300 damage off them. This game has become so *faceplam* it's ridiculous.

[Gothdom]

I doubt very much that new players are going to give a hoot about how much Max Uberness has been nerfed. They will not care that Bruntsmash and Kobold times have increased.

I think they'll visually notice the (4 down to 1 or 2 sets of #s) change in Manyshot, and notice they're taking a bit more damage, but not enough to cancle subs and scream "F.t.S! & I'm out!" at their monitor as they rage-uninstal the game. And of course, that's only the new players who are already here; the new players who come post patch won't know the difference... unless they read the forums ;)

Maybe so, but a new player trying a game where they can't win will probably leave before level 7.

[Warsmurf]

Changes look good to me and it seems that most of the folks upset are running toons based on some or many of these exploits. Which is kind of surprising because they know these builds are temporary when they invest in them. I have toons that will be effected by these changes but none of them will break because of them. So it's not that I am uneffected or don't understand. I like the idea of a balanced game where many different builds are viable even if they require, omg don't say it, a team. Everyone needs to remember that this is a game to be played for fun, by everyone, and flavors of the month are just that. Keep up the good work devs and don't be swayed by players who's only interest in the game is the kill count.

Thanks for your hard work

[jalont]

Maybe so, but a new player trying a game where they can't win will probably leave before level 7.

They'll do fine in normal and hard difficulty. Heck, they'll likely still do fine in Heroic Elite difficulty. Elite isn't for new players. Elite should provide a challenge for the best of the best, so that EVERYONE can have a difficulty to play on.

[Gothdom]

They'll do fine in normal and hard difficulty. Heck, they'll likely still do fine in Heroic Elite difficulty. Elite isn't for new players. Elite should provide a challenge for the best of the best, so that EVERYONE can have a difficulty to play on.

I'm serious, go on lammania, make a pure rogue assasin with TWF and tell me how fun it is. No past lives allowed. THE class which is supposed to sneak and do dps with TWF is so squishy and lame, you'll unlock traps and have to pike to survive. The Warlock has a small problem in heroics, but it's fine as is for epics. There are better ways to balance him than nerfs, like less power on heroics until level 20, then give +X eldritch blast to catch up to where it is now. I liked the idea of SP cost for Chains.

The armor change needs to be rethought. Without any MRR, some classes are just made of papier mâcher

[PpalP]

You're overstating the hitbox issues. This game is so easy that you should be jumping in the middle of EE mobs and swinging while rotating in a circle. You don't "need" to take out casters. You don't "need" to line up attacks. This is DDO 2015. Jump in the middle of those EE mobs and heal through the punishment. They can't kill you anyways. Heck, when I play on my crappy laptop, I jump in the middle of EE mobs WHILE graphically stuttering and still don't die. THAT is where this game has gone. THAT is what the devs are trying to fix.

Do you mind to elaborate? I mean: which build, equipment, past lives, destinies, etc? and why they can't kill you?

Thanks!

[hit_fido]

~ We think there has been a lot of good discussion in particular on MRR, armor, and whether these changes will put us back into a state where everyone feel compelled to take Evasion. We have read suggestions that some smaller amount of MRR might be added back to armors and we've been looking at that option. I just wanted to point out the reductions do not put us back to pre Armor Up balance. The PRR formula is more generous, and the PRR offered by armor is still higher. Heavy armor mitigates a lot more damage than before Armor Up. In addition, there are many sources of MRR, including gear, that simply did not exist before, including enhancements that only work with medium or heavy armors. Armored characters are still in much better shape than in the past, which is why we'd like to see this on Lamannia.


It's not about whether losing some MRR is good or bad relative to current or pre "armor up". It's about whether removing MRR entirely tilts the balance between heavy/medium armor and cloth/light plus evasion too far back toward where we were before.

There are other sources of MRR, this is true. But as those other sources rise it also tends to devalue any MRR that would have been inherent to medium or heavy armor. If I can get an easy 40-50 MRR on an evasion character the same as I can on a heavy armor wearer, then the 30 MRR that the heavy armor would have added previously isn't such a big leap over what the evasion character has. So removing it entirely seems overkill, in light of how the game will continue to change and continue to offer more sources of MRR to all characters.

It's fine to note that some enhancements offer MRR, but doesn't that suggest that heavy armor as a source of mitigation should only be worthwile on fighter 3/paladin 3 splashes? That didn't seem to be the goal when you decided heavy (and medium) armor needed something to make it more competitive against cloth/light and evasion.

If the concern is freeloading and frontloading by so called "slapping on heavy armor", then making PRR/MRR dependant on proficiency and tying them both to BAB would address that without removing MRR contribution entirely. If the concern is a sense that "too many" players are using heavy armor now, please also consider how much that can be attributed to the sky high DR on shadow guardian versus just the MRR. I'm sure you're not going to balance shadow guardian downward, but you should also not reduce mitigation for all heavy armor on the basis of that one out of bounds item effect.

[oweieie]

Tactical Supremacy
Requires Fighter Level 16
You gain +8 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Notes: All tactical feats stack for a total of +20.
Sev

It's like you don't know how a d20 works. Any mob made to be even slightly challenging for a fighter to land a tactic on will be impossible for anyone else to effect. You have a 20 point range to work with which realistically means you have 10 points you can swing, you've already doubled that with just these feats.

We're already having massive problems with anything that has a DC that doesn't benefit from tactical bonuses or spell focus bonuses like many destiny abilities or quivering palm (which at 40+ DC behind stunning fist is a complete bloody joke). How could you possibly think this would even remotely work let alone be a good idea?

[Nestroy]

They'll do fine in normal and hard difficulty. Heck, they'll likely still do fine in Heroic Elite difficulty. Elite isn't for new players. Elite should provide a challenge for the best of the best, so that EVERYONE can have a difficulty to play on.

THAT simply is not true. As long as there are a) items and b) favor and c) sagas bound to completing elite stuff, elite stuff will get run even by those that perhaps should not run elite. They will get fustrated and eventually leave. All DDO has from them is bad mouthing. No more money, no more player base, nothing. Except bad press. That´s why we need a difficulty above elite like Reaper, not a nerf-to-the-grounds of all and everything to make elite the reaper difficulty. Reaper should not provide better rewards than elite. Just perhaps better chances at elite rewards.

I always hear the "if elite is too difficult, try hard or normal". That is the usual statement by those having tripple completionist toons with all the best gear available. This is no statement from the "regular" player base. Elite should provide a challenge for all but the best toons. For the best toons, elite should not pose a challenge. Get over it, you won DDO!

I am still vocal for Reaper. I am against nerfing all and everything into oblivion to save on introducing Reaper. I strongly urge Turbine to re-think the whole whack-a-mole nerfing they do here.

[FestusHood]

I realize video games aren't real life, but would you call a 26% reduction of your paycheck a "small decrease?" Me either. By the same vein, I have to wonder just what numbers you're talking about when you say "effective DPS will be close to live." If you call 26% less attacks is a "small decrease" then I have no trouble imagining that you may consider 26% less DPS "close." As always, it'll be interesting to see how this actually plays out - with plays being the key word. I don't care two licks for speed tests vs training dummy kobolds; in the words of Mr. Miyagi: "boards don't hit back" and thus your prowess vs boards counts for naught.

It would be 26% less dps if no ranged power was added at all. There is a substantial amount of ranged power being added. How much of an increase that is will depend on how much ranged power the character already has.

[Gothdom]

THAT simply is not true. As long as there are a) items and b) favor and c) sagas bound to completing elite stuff, elite stuff will get run even by those that perhaps should not run elite. They will get fustrated and eventually leave. ALl DDO has from them is bad mouthing. No more money, no more player base, nothing. Except bad press. That´s why we need a difficulty above elite like Reaper, not a nerf-to-the-grounds of all and everything to make elite the reaper difficulty. Reaper should not provide better rewards than elite. Just perhaps better chances at elite rewards.

I always hear the "if elite is too difficult, try hard or normal". That is the usual statement by those having tripple completionist toons with all the best gear available. This is no statement from the "regular" player base. Wlite should provide a challenge for all but the best toons. For the best toons, elite should not pose a challenge. Get over it, you won DDO!

I am still vocal for Reaper. I am against nerfing all and everything into oblivion to save on introducing Reaper. I strongly urge Turbine to re-think the whole whack-a-mole nerfing they do here.

This!

In fact I'm all for a postpone if they really want to do some balancing. Right now what I see is that they think nerf = balance which is absolutely wrong. I'm sure that's not what they intended. Yes this was thought out and the devs probably foresaw some negatives from the forums, but I'm sure not this much. On paper some things looked great but applies badly to the type of game DDO is.

[Nestroy]

The issue that I think most seem to have with Warlock is one of the melee SE Warlocks that go in and smack everything with auras and burst. If they'd play a casting Warlock they'd know it'll start trailing behind in DPS towards the end. So if the issue are the auras and burst then a top loaded die would need a lot more investments in Warlock and stop people from investing greatly in say melee and haflway in Warlock. At least if they want an okay aura and burst.

I'm not worried about heroic content. Quite frankly it's old news. Adjusting Warlock because of how easy it is to swat heroic quest made prior to the enhancement overpass and Warlock is a folly. It's silly unless you also start redoing the heroic quests to be up to par. 'Cause the only thing that happens is that the Epic game becomes like with Arti - terrible. Arti does well in Heroic and start suffering past level 23 even with a full destiny.

The more I do not understand your argument from your 1st post on the topic. Backloading WL in higher levels stops due to epic beeing completely different from heroic on lv. 20. So by lv. 20 the WL has all and everything or he has not. Adding some 5-9 levels of WL under the current linear damage system gives accordingly less damage output. Let me explain. WL lv. 5 gives 3d6 blast and 2d4 pact damage. Lv. 9 gives 5d6 + 4d4 damage. Lv. 20 WL gives 9d6 and 10d4 damage. All altered by spell power, metamagics, etc. So the lower splashed WL gets linearly less damage from blasts. So any blast damage from WL splash is purely secondary dot damage during battle. While this may add up nicely even in epic content, doing some 200 damage every 5 seconds is no big deal there. Only largely pure WLs have significant damage output from blasting. All else can only be regarded as "secondary". Now, the WL does nicely find synergies with Fav, Pally... Because soem damage from the WL can be altered to ligth / allignment damage - and then they nicely add up. But even altered the main damage remains with the weapons on even heavily splashed builds. And WL blasts are mainly secondary damage. Ofc this might be better overall DPS in total than a pure SWF, TWF or THF build. May be. Bit not necessarly.

A player being able to build such a deep splashed melee build should not have too much of a problem to build a "normal" melee build anyways, doing superior DPS. So maybe the kill count will remain the same, WL or no WL, for such a player.

And all other players playing WLs get nerfed?

WL is best played mainly pure. Else it´s just secondary or auxillary damage output. Keep that in mind before trying to nerf the WLs and WL splashes.

And last remark for this post: ST on ES is the main culprit why WLs are perceived OP. A melee wadding through mobs that does not need to care about hit points because of ST... If anything to nerf, it´s ST. Not the damage output of blasts.

[Shindoku]

Do we want to legitimize Fury Eternal's gain of Adrenaline while using missile weapons, or do we want to fix that bug?
I would hope you to legitimize Fury Eternal. Supporting different styles of play in a single tree is more enjoyment to the player. While not being the best tree (by far) for all, Fatesinger supports everyone and most everyone I talk with agrees it is a well built tree because of this. Especially when grinding xp out for a new tree, it isn't enjoyable to be in a tree that you get little to nothing in. This all being said, if Fury Shots are creating that much of a problem for balance after the pass, fix it.

[dunklezhan]

Only an idiot would consider going twf on a paladin now, thanks to severlin and his grand ideas.




Anyone can wear a cloak. Anyone not wearing heavy armor is now an idiot.


Wow. Called an idiot twice inside three posts. A new record!

/sigh.

Sev: All I ask at this point is that you be very flexible about go live dates once you get this to lammania.

Give people lots of time to playtest and feedback, and make changes in response to that before go live. We can't afford any kind of outflux of players at this point just because you unintentionally kill the fun of some playstyles for a few weeks when you'd kinda sorta only wanted just to pull back on them a little bit ("fishing for vorpals", indeed! You made me feel about this big with that comment by the way. Like I'd been exploiting, since 2009) I'm not saying this will be the outcome of these changes but I'm genuinely worried that it might ?be. That's a very big risk.

[FestusHood]

Yeah, but we vets know how to cope with that. Newer players do not.

Newer players will largely not be aware that nerfs have taken place.

An example would be the removal of 6 melee power from the two weapon fighting feats. Keep in mind this was only added in a few months ago. If this change hadn't been announced i suspect most players, myself included, would not even be able to perceive the difference in practical play.

[Kriogen]

Newer players will largely not be aware that nerfs have taken place.
...
They will be aware of armor nerf. At start, protection you get from plain lootgen armor is all you get.

[Nestroy]

Newer players will largely not be aware that nerfs have taken place.

An example would be the removal of 6 melee power from the two weapon fighting feats. Keep in mind this was only added in a few months ago. If this change hadn't been announced i suspect most players, myself included, would not even be able to perceive the difference in practical play.

Newer players likely will not notice that 6 melee power are missing. What they will notice though, and not only because of TWF alone, is the fact that DDO got tougher to play. And they will get frustrated by this. They may not name or nail it why, except they are reading here. But they will leave.

[Gothdom]

Newer players will largely not be aware that nerfs have taken place.

An example would be the removal of 6 melee power from the two weapon fighting feats. Keep in mind this was only added in a few months ago. If this change hadn't been announced i suspect most players, myself included, would not even be able to perceive the difference in practical play.

No, they will start playing, get annoyed because it's clunky and leave, bad mouthing the game.

[Retrodark]

You're overstating the hitbox issues. This game is so easy that you should be jumping in the middle of EE mobs and swinging while rotating in a circle. You don't "need" to take out casters. You don't "need" to line up attacks. This is DDO 2015. Jump in the middle of those EE mobs and heal through the punishment. They can't kill you anyways. Heck, when I play on my crappy laptop, I jump in the middle of EE mobs WHILE graphically stuttering and still don't die. THAT is where this game has gone. THAT is what the devs are trying to fix.

You cannot do this with all builds, especially when champs are involved (even more so lately, as they seem to be hitting like trucks again on lvl 30 EE quests, ie. Necro 4 and TOEE at least). Maybe barbs and pallies with over 200PRR, and/or toons that are 3x max ITR, ETR, TR completionists. Otherwise, I don't think you will see too many others jumping in the middle and of EE groups.

[Kompera_Oberon]

Holy Sword (Paladin)
This is now a spell that affects the paladin and buffs whatever melee weapon is being wielded in the main hand.
It no longer persists on your weapon but instead buffs the melee weapon you are holding in your main hand. (Yes, this buffs your two handed weapons.)
It no longer affects missile weapons.
It no longer can be used to buff off hand weapons or shields.
If you change weapons the spell will drop off the unequipped weapon and instead be applied to the newly equipped weapon.

It seems to me that you've tried to limit stacking crit range and multiplier via several of the other changes proposed here. Why can't that approach be applied to Holy Sword as well, and in so doing eliminate the need to fear the "14 Paladin hybrids"? That would allow people to continue playing their ranged spec Paladins, they just won't be able to stack Holy Sword on top of many/most/all Enhancement/ED crit range/multiplier boosts. So the holy archer still lives on, but is perhaps a pure class instead of the current L14 hybrid build, or at least it would not have a higher crit range and multiplier than other ranged spec builds.



Improved Critical
These feats now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

Keen
This loot effect now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.
For a set of changes purporting to be all about balance, this set of changes succeeds on one level and fails on another. The failure is in expanding weapon choices. These changes do nothing to reduce the supremacy of weapon types with a larger crit range or multiplier, and will not change the weapons used by the vast majority of players. The only concern should be in balancing Simple weapons against Martial, and balancing Martial weapons against Exotic. But within the weapon classes there are still clear favorites and your proposed changes do nothing to help balance this. Who uses a light pick, for example?



Armor Changes
The amount of Physical Resist Rating that armor provides has been changed.
* Heavy armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 2) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Medium armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1.5) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Light Armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
Reducing PRR is warranted. I'm not sure I see the need to eliminate MRR entirely from armor. Can you elaborate on your reasons for this change?




As a result of dialing back armor, some fighter only feats that will boost their effectiveness with armor and add to tactical DCs will also be included.

Tactical Training
Requires Fighter Level 4
You gain +2 to the DC of all tactical feats.

~~~

[COLOR=#ff8c00]Heavy Armor Training
Requires Fighter Level 2
You gain +3 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Fighters do need more meaningful Feats, since this is pretty much their sole class ability and Feats don't match up to many/most other class abilities. But these seem both lackluster and will eat up those Feats rapidly. Design Feats which scale with level, not Feats which need to be stacked up on each other to remain meaningful as the Fighter levels.

I am aware that the various weapon style Feat chains come directly from PnP D&D, but there's nothing stopping you from moving away from that source. If a weapon style Feat scaled with Fighter level a Fighter could take TWF and have it provide the benefits of ITWF/GTWF as they leveled without having to continue to advance it at a cost of more feats, which only serves to reduce that class ability of having more Feats in the first place.

I hope I'm being clear here. A system which says to the Fighter "Hey, you get piles of Feats, enjoy!" and then essentially forces the Fighter to spend those Feats on a few clearly superior Feat chains essentially eliminates the advantage of that class ability. More Feats should allow a Fighter to customize their build, spend a few or several on non-traditional choices so that they stand out from their peers. More Feats should not just offer a Fighter another shoehorn to spend their Feats on so they again are all just carbon copies of each other.

The same of course applies to the THF and SWF chains. If it's too difficult to make this work since other classes can take those chains as well, then block Fighters from taking the existing Feats and design Fighter only Feats which mirror the weapon style chains but don't require a constant investment of more Feats to keep them relevant.

And while were talking about Feats and balance, there are a whole lot of Feats which probably have a very minimal presence in the game, and then perhaps only because a player may not realize just how nigh-useless the Feat is when compared to their other Feat choices. Some balance attention is well warranted there.



Divine Grace (Paladin)
Divine Grace now provides a maximum bonus equal to 2 + (Paladin level x 3).
Please share your intent with regards to this change. It does not appear to accomplish what you might think it is accomplishing. A 3 level Paladin splash can get +11 to all saves after this change, which doesn't look like balance to me.


I hope that you fix Handwraps before you implement this list of changes, since you've said that you intend to implement them all at the same time and fixing Handwraps should be done before making any changes to combat styles.

[Mirta]

Correction: it's Anti-everyone ^^

Yes, but it's worse for new players. Try rolling up a new toon with 28 points and no funding. A fresh start in this game is not easy. We tend to forget how difficult things can be just because we all have plenty of pots, gear, and past lives. Next time you heroic TR don't get anything out of the TR cache and try to play as if you didn't have plat. It isn't fun.

[FestusHood]

I'm serious, go on lammania, make a pure rogue assasin with TWF and tell me how fun it is. No past lives allowed. THE class which is supposed to sneak and do dps with TWF is so squishy and lame, you'll unlock traps and have to pike to survive. The Warlock has a small problem in heroics, but it's fine as is for epics. There are better ways to balance him than nerfs, like less power on heroics until level 20, then give +X eldritch blast to catch up to where it is now. I liked the idea of SP cost for Chains.

The armor change needs to be rethought. Without any MRR, some classes are just made of papier mâcher

An assassin is likely to be wearing light armor. It will hardly be affected at all. Most of rogues dps comes from sneak attack, and that's built into the class, it has almost nothing to do with past lives. These changes will bring heavy armor somewhat back in line. Recent content has been balanced with the idea that people will have massive amounts of prr and mrr, that's why the damage is so much higher in those. If they can even out the defensive levels between players somewhat, they can balance the monster damage better for all players.

[FestusHood]

You cannot do this with all builds, especially when champs are involved (even more so lately, as they seem to be hitting like trucks again on lvl 30 EE quests, ie. Necro 4 and TOEE at least). Maybe barbs and pallies with over 200PRR, and/or toons that are 3x max ITR, ETR, TR completionists. Otherwise, I don't think you will see too many others jumping in the middle and of EE groups.

I don't know about barbs with 200 prr. My barb is level 23 right now, and he has about 60 prr, and about 40mrr. At least on lower level epic elites, i can do exactly that. Stand in the middle of a pack of mobs and cleave. The only difference is, after a while, i may have to move.

[GregorianPL]

all i belive it is just really unfair to the players that grind named items with extended critical threat also monk gets another nerf, and honestly i didnt saw single player playing pure monk for a while, as i did tr for this +1 damage from pastlife i know now why.this is hardly unfair what are you doing.. i think u should basicly just change the spell of the paladin, so it wont affect weapon as itself just like some of the feats of the other classes increase total crit threat. also what i think removing mrr from armors is another point where everyone gonna swap into evasion classes... you want to nerf paladin saves ? boost general saves... it is very hard already now in ee quests, for many classes, for now it was really easy for me as i was warlock or paladin to go through any ee quest also arti and rogue with heavy repeater have insane damage. i know it is really hard to put some ballance into game... but trust me you do it all in wrong way. you gonna need to remake all the changes after half of the year or so because you will see drop in active players in game. most of ppl here are casual players not uber gamers who calculate every single damage or hp and etc. ofc for them EE contence will be always easy. i know just a bunch of that kind of people i could count on fingers of my only 1 hand...

[FestusHood]

Yes, but it's worse for new players. Try rolling up a new toon with 28 points and no funding. A fresh start in this game is not easy. We tend to forget how difficult things can be just because we all have plenty of pots, gear, and past lives. Next time you heroic TR don't get anything out of the TR cache and try to play as if you didn't have plat. It isn't fun.

If you just start the game, enter a quest on the highest available difficulty, and are already beating it handily, where do you go from there?

When i tr, i craft an alacrity item, and largely leave the other slots empty. Yes empty. i will gradually fill in the other gear slots with whatever i pick up along the way. My latest tr is now level 3 and i went out of my way to run misery's peak. To get gear. I don't bother to equip stat items until level 9, when i can equip full +6. One of the advantages of playing for 4 years is that i have come to realize just how little difference these things actually make.

[Gothdom]

If you just start the game, enter a quest on the highest available difficulty, and are already beating it handily, where do you go from there?

When i tr, i craft an alacrity item, and largely leave the other slots empty. Yes empty. i will gradually fill in the other gear slots with whatever i pick up along the way. My latest tr is now level 3 and i went out of my way to run misery's peak. To get gear. I don't bother to equip stat items until level 9, when i can equip full +6. One of the advantages of playing for 4 years is that i have come to realize just how little difference these things actually make.

When you TR, you get passives from all lives before, giving you more HP, Def, MRR or PRR.

When you start a new character, you can only play normal. And it's not super easy. Gear would help, but new players don't have that. Think "NEW-PLAYER" more than "TR". I'm sorry, but your seeing it wrong. You still haven't gone on lammania to try a TWF rogue from scratch. I'm sure you'll die in Korthos from stuff you normal wouldn't.

EDIT : A TR'd character also probably have some tomes.

[EllisDee37]

When you TR, you get passives from all lives before, giving you more HP, Def, MRR or PRR.

When you start a new character, you can only play normal. And it's not super easy. Gear would help, but new players don't have that. Think "NEW-PLAYER" more than "TR". I'm sorry, but your seeing it wrong. You still haven't gone on lammania to try a TWF rogue from scratch. I'm sure you'll die in Korthos from stuff you normal wouldn't.

EDIT : A TR'd character also probably have some tomes.On normal? A brand new character with no gear at all dying on normal? Maybe a brand new player. Maybe. But a veteran? Dying on normal? In Korthos? I don't think so.

[Grimreich]

You guys are contradicting yourselves hard.

You say Fighters are weak and hard to balance, so your idea is to give them 2 series of 4 feats to limit their one strength with trade offs from feats they already need to stay viable. Brilliant. Again, I propose this and hope this time you'll actually take a look at it.

New Keen/Improved Critical: I'm assuming this is based on the idea that it's easier to clear mobs with higher damage/crit multiplier weapons based on the fewer hits it takes to kill something, the more quickly you can kill multiple enemies. Understanding that there's already a ton of ways to improve attack speed, I still think it would be more balanced to have something that increases attack speed/threat range based on multiplier. For example: 18-20/X2 = 40% attack speed, 19-20/X2 = 20% attack speed, 20/X3 = +1 threat range. This is a rough idea, but with the right balance, this will allow all weapons to kill things big or small at roughly the same pace. This would also allow you to remove the attack speed bonuses from single weapon fighting, maybe reduce the feats in the chain to two and split the difference of melee power to 5 each. This would also give two handed weapons that edge again.

BALANCING FIGHTERS: Fighters in D&D are about versatility of consistent passive effectiveness or specializing in 1 weapon (or in DDOs case, weapon type.) Doing something like changing Greater/Weapon Specialization to a flat 5 Melee Power, changing Kensei to be more critical hit oriented and improving the core enhancements all the way up the board for all the trees. Kensei with a capstone that increases critical threat and range +1 (in addition to and stacking with the tier 5 enhancement) and +1 to critical damage before modifiers per core enhancement. This will give fighters their own niche and keep with the theme fighters often take in pen and paper with weapon master. Stalwart Defender with 4MRR per core enhancement, Vanguard with some melee power per core enhancement (to keep up with Paladins, but keep them different.)


If you want to balance magic damage reduction, but are having trouble with it due to Evasion: Remove Evasion and have light/no armor reduce 100% of magic damage on a successful reflex save, medium armor 50% and heavy armor 25% or some better balanced numbers. But also keep MRR as you plan to change it.

While I appreciate that MRR/PRR is a powerful mechanic, 4 feats is rough even on a Fighter. Perhaps reduce it to 2 and make them +8% or +10% to PRR/ +15(flat)MRR each? At levels 7 and 14 or 8 and 16.


I would also add that maybe heavy armor should add a % to MRR. 5 or 8% or so. That would add to the Pally, since he gets quite a bit of it in defender enhancement tree, it would add to fighter more as it levels up and takes the feats you've added and would still not effect much from other classes.

[Gothdom]

On normal? A brand new character with no gear at all dying on normal? Maybe a brand new player. Maybe. But a veteran? Dying on normal? In Korthos? I don't think so.

That was the point. This patch is very anti-new player.

[zerit2002]

http://s10.postimg.org/fhugzz05z/Screen_Shot00003.png

[Mirta]

If you just start the game, enter a quest on the highest available difficulty, and are already beating it handily, where do you go from there?

When i tr, i craft an alacrity item, and largely leave the other slots empty. Yes empty. i will gradually fill in the other gear slots with whatever i pick up along the way. My latest tr is now level 3 and i went out of my way to run misery's peak. To get gear. I don't bother to equip stat items until level 9, when i can equip full +6. One of the advantages of playing for 4 years is that i have come to realize just how little difference these things actually make.

Right, but you still have that alacrity item, and probably haste/heal/rage/resist pots and ship buffs. New players don't. It may not sound like a lot, but it really is. When you're level 1, go into a level 2 quest on normal and take half of your HP in damage against the first monster with no way to heal because you don't have money for pots... It can be difficult depending on the class.

[Mirta]

On normal? A brand new character with no gear at all dying on normal? Maybe a brand new player. Maybe. But a veteran? Dying on normal? In Korthos? I don't think so.

Korthos is just being used as an example of how the game isn't friendly to new players. All these changes are being made to nerf elitists, completionists, etc, but nobody takes into account how it affects people who are on their first lives and playing through for the first time. The game is not friendly to new players because it is built/balanced for experienced/geared players.

[Braegan]

Le Sigh...

A new player in Korthos is in no way affected by the changes to:

- A spell cast that requires 14 levels of Paladin

- A feat that requires at least 8th level

- Enhancements that require 12th character level

- Feats that require 6th level

- Epic Destiny changes

etc, etc, etc.

[SirValentine]

Newer players likely will not notice that 6 melee power are missing. What they will notice though, and not only because of TWF alone, is the fact that DDO got tougher to play. And they will get frustrated by this. They may not name or nail it why, except they are reading here. But they will leave.

Wasn't being tougher one of DDO original draws, to the point of even being mentioned in advertising?

I wasn't in DDO yet then, but I seem to recall some of the true old-timers telling me that.

I don't think "being tougher" is necessarily a draw-back or a reason people leave. There are people who find easy-buttons boring.

And, honestly, with the massive power increase everyone got in The Enhancement Pass, all the angst over the slight reductions proposed here is amusing. Game is still far, far easier than a few years back.

[Death_Mystic]

With all these nerfs (whether good or bad) I would like one nerf on the enemies. Mostly for trash mobs but global to all enemies work. Thier saves are way too high it seems for DC using abilities. There looks to be a possible remedy for fighters (multi w/ftr in also) builds. My toons (Spellcaster enchantment pure bard (gets through spell pen good enough, and has all DC increases available in the tree) and wisdom based pure monk) have a hard time landing their CC abilities on enemies. Yes I try to get gear to improve these and take the feats (i.e. spell focus line) to improve them. I think a -2 to enemy saves on hard and -5 on elite might help land a little better. Or maybe just some more Global DC increase to certain areas like wizard (arcmage line), monk (abilities that require DCs in order to effect) and Bards (spell singer). I left out warlock because they have good normal attack with edritch blast and i think the nerf to it will weaken it but it will still be an effective attack after.

Anyway just my 2 copper asking for a nerf to a specific area with enemies (mostly whats suppose to be trash) as the rest of the aspects for enemies are fine.

Also Thank you for the great game that is DDO and still continues to be great even with the lagg problems.

[FestusHood]

When you TR, you get passives from all lives before, giving you more HP, Def, MRR or PRR.

When you start a new character, you can only play normal. And it's not super easy. Gear would help, but new players don't have that. Think "NEW-PLAYER" more than "TR". I'm sorry, but your seeing it wrong. You still haven't gone on lammania to try a TWF rogue from scratch. I'm sure you'll die in Korthos from stuff you normal wouldn't.

EDIT : A TR'd character also probably have some tomes.

My level 3 guy, actually level 4 now is going to be an acrobat. He's wearing some light +2 armor i pulled out of a chest. I crafted him a 10% alacrity item. Yes, he is a 36 point build. Yes, he has tomes but they mostly don't apply at that level. He is a strength build, a half orc, so his dex and intelligence are low.

What is really different about the lammania assassin vs the one on live? You are talking about korthos. Those feats that lost the melee power? You don't have them yet. When i started playing, before the ac system change, the general rule was that everything hit you, every time, because it did. AC did about nothing without heavy investment. There was no dodge as we now know it. Now ac is amazing at low levels. Just putting on armor is going to get you missed half the time at level. When i started there was no such thing as prr or mrr. You took all the damage, all the time.

Most of the difference for me is in perception. When i started, i remember when things started hitting me in melee for more than 30 damage, i was shocked by it. Literally freaked out. Now, after playing through epic elites, where the damage is much higher, those things are still hitting me for about the same amount of damage ( i play a lot of low prr characters) it just doesn't freak me out any more. It's something that comes from experience, and some power creep in the game mechanics, which they are rightly trying to tone down some. The difference the past lives i have make is just not that much.

[Lord_Jaffacake]

With all these nerfs (whether good or bad) I would like one nerf on the enemies. Mostly for trash mobs but global to all enemies work. Thier saves are way too high it seems for DC using abilities. There looks to be a possible remedy for fighters (multi w/ftr in also) builds. My toons (Spellcaster enchantment pure bard (gets through spell pen good enough, and has all DC increases available in the tree) and wisdom based pure monk) have a hard time landing their CC abilities on enemies. Yes I try to get gear to improve these and take the feats (i.e. spell focus line) to improve them. I think a -2 to enemy saves on hard and -5 on elite might help land a little better. Or maybe just some more Global DC increase to certain areas like wizard (arcmage line), monk (abilities that require DCs in order to effect) and Bards (spell singer). I left out warlock because they have good normal attack with edritch blast and i think the nerf to it will weaken it but it will still be an effective attack after.

Anyway just my 2 copper asking for a nerf to a specific area with enemies (mostly whats suppose to be trash) as the rest of the aspects for enemies are fine.

Also Thank you for the great game that is DDO and still continues to be great even with the lagg problems.

Agreed and this is another reason I think they should consider doing an entire spell / dc pass before launching with these changes. It's making me nervous how it gives the impression that they are looking to force these changes out with Night Revels. I just see too much frankly high risk, low gain to stand with the current proposed changes right now.

[Nestroy]

Le Sigh...

A new player in Korthos is in no way affected by the changes to:

- A spell cast that requires 14 levels of Paladin

- A feat that requires at least 8th level

- Enhancements that require 12th character level

- Feats that require 6th level

- Epic Destiny changes

etc, etc, etc.

I think that "New Player" needs some definition. I would define "New Player" as beeing new to DDO (well, self explanatory), beeing on a 1st life, 28 pt build and not well vised in game mechanics. That toon could be lv. 1, lv. 7, lv. 12 or lv. 20, or even in the epics. It´s a "New Player". I would define "Experienced Player" as being a player with at least one toon at least once TRed, meanwhile both heroic and epic. I ould define "Vet Player" as having multiple toons on presumably more than one server and with at least one completionist toon in the mix.

I would say, all the nerfs comming do hit "New Players" as well. and no, even a lv. 20 new player will not be wised enough to know that heavy armor got nerfed by 30 points MRR. But a new player will feel that most casters will hit much better on his/her toon.

[Mirta]

Le Sigh...

A new player in Korthos is in no way affected by the changes to:

See:


Korthos is just being used as an example of how the game isn't friendly to new players. All these changes are being made to nerf elitists, completionists, etc, but nobody takes into account how it affects people who are on their first lives and playing through for the first time. The game is not friendly to new players because it is built/balanced for experienced/geared players.

Trying to say that nerfs affect everybody, and new players are no exception. No new players means no new income. Old players leave, none come in, game dies. Not complicated. I wonder if devs ever test changes on undergeared first lifers to ensure new players aren't scared off.

[Braegan]

I think that "New Player" needs some definition. I would define "New Player" as beeing new to DDO (well, self explanatory), beeing on a 1st life, 28 pt build and not well vised in game mechanics. That toon could be lv. 1, lv. 7, lv. 12 or lv. 20, or even in the epics. It´s a "New Player". I would define "Experienced Player" as being a player with at least one toon at least once TRed, meanwhile both heroic and epic. I ould define "Vet Player" as having multiple toons on presumably more than one server and with at least one completionist toon in the mix.

I would say, all the nerfs comming do hit "New Players" as well. and no, even a lv. 20 new player will not be wised enough to know that heavy armor got nerfed by 30 points MRR. But a new player will feel that most casters will hit much better on his/her toon.

I know. I wasn't the one that brought up Korthos tho, so I was responding to what was posted.

Yes it points out the silliness being posted.

[Nestroy]

Wasn't being tougher one of DDO original draws, to the point of even being mentioned in advertising?

I wasn't in DDO yet then, but I seem to recall some of the true old-timers telling me that.

I don't think "being tougher" is necessarily a draw-back or a reason people leave. There are people who find easy-buttons boring.

And, honestly, with the massive power increase everyone got in The Enhancement Pass, all the angst over the slight reductions proposed here is amusing. Game is still far, far easier than a few years back.

Well, there has been a reason then why DDO needed a rescue in form of going f2p and opening up on many strict pnp rules. Permanent blindness? Permanent level drains? Only healing in taverns at Silver Flame priests? Well... DDO certainly was harder when we had to do WW and Steam Tunnels to get to Market Place. And I still miss the old tent. But anyways, DDO is a completely different game today. Level cap is currently lv. 28 and not back at lv. 8. I would suggest to keep in mind that DDO got much easier than when it started, and it saved the game. DDO was loosing money and players when they decided to open up, make f2p and did away with much of the pnp lore that was putting much too high a difficulty on the game.

I had a one-month tryout back then when DDO opened. I am still a vivid pnp player and DM. And I liked DDO then, back in 2006. But I like DDO nowadays too - just because its easier and "more fun". But its not pnp, it lost much of the original 3ed touch&feel. At the plus side, its still open to play.

I would suggest, as I said before, to give power and fan players a reaper difficulty that is really challenging. I would suggest to keep elite as it currently is and to make reaper exactly like elite, except all mobs champs, no ship buffs working, negative effects beeing permanent and no past life bonuses applying. And then have fun everybody that wants to.

[FestusHood]

Right, but you still have that alacrity item, and probably haste/heal/rage/resist pots and ship buffs. New players don't. It may not sound like a lot, but it really is. When you're level 1, go into a level 2 quest on normal and take half of your HP in damage against the first monster with no way to heal because you don't have money for pots... It can be difficult depending on the class.

I'll grant you, the ship buffs, particularly the resists, make a large difference. Those aren't actually unavailable to new players though, they just need to join a guild. That's a good idea if possible even if there weren't any buffs. .

In a level 2 quest on normal, the mobs hit for about 1-2 damage, maybe. In fact, just having run through misery peak on elite, they don't do much more. I did have cure serious wounds pots. I also had a hireling, not because i needed it, but i just like bringing them along. I was with one other player. Nothing in there is that dangerous. For one thing, they die too fast. That's everybody not just vets. The weapons are stronger than they used to be. Just having something like flaming on a weapon makes a noticeable difference at that level.

I guess the main difference for me vs a new player is that i no longer waste my time doing things that don't work, i.e. strafing, tumbling, generally moving around a lot with the idea that somehow it will make the mobs miss me. I learned a long time ago that the mobs hit me just as much, so i stopped doing those things. I have learned which actions actually do have an effect, and when to make them. I no longer panic when my hit points begin to drop, i just take steps to fix it.

[Gothdom]

Wasn't being tougher one of DDO original draws, to the point of even being mentioned in advertising?

I wasn't in DDO yet then, but I seem to recall some of the true old-timers telling me that.

I don't think "being tougher" is necessarily a draw-back or a reason people leave. There are people who find easy-buttons boring.

And, honestly, with the massive power increase everyone got in The Enhancement Pass, all the angst over the slight reductions proposed here is amusing. Game is still far, far easier than a few years back.

That was 10 years ago. We need new blood in the game. If you and the council try to make this "your" world, then all will fail. I left for a year and a half when I started playing. Thelanis, then, was full of "new player? FU! " and "if you want to be on my guild, you have to speak with that dude, go on the web, be on probation for 6 months, and you must be a cleric because we have only 4".

I came back because a friend was playing. The world was already changed. Got an invite to a guild, and the people in are so friendly and we invite all new players in to give them hints, help, gear and buffs. We don't care if anyone dies in heroic, even before the xp fix that just came out.

Without these, I don't think I would've stayed. Now that I have ETR'd a couple of times, I'm grateful for the time I spent, but I'm not sure I'll ever create a brand new toon. No, in fact I did create new toons, but they are now mules because I don't want to go through the grinding fest of first life. It concerns me because I love new players. I like to help and teach some things. I learn some more from other guildies every day. This patch hinders some classes more than balance the Pally and Bard. The warlock changes are needed, but not like that. When was the last time you saw a pure Iconic? Even rogues are still just splashed for some skills. I see some pure rogues, but they all say the same thing : "never again". I think that it's a great indication that IT'S NOT FUN TO PLAY. The main goal of devs, before balance and all, is that this game is fun. This patch takes away some of the fun. I talk a lot about pure rogues because it was my first life. It was a nightmare. The TR reward is not worth the trouble. Still, for completionist, I'll have to do more lives as *shudder* rogue. The stealth is weird, because some monster just see or hear you even with ultimate skills. I don't know if it got fixed, but you were never able to sneak a spider. It had a 6th sense or something. In epics, you get to kill one dude and get destroyed. And if you play caster, for some unknown reason, even when you are behind a wall and someone else starts the fight, more than 1 or 2 monsters of the group goes straight to you.

Balance is one thing, but why make it harder for the new players? TWF is borked. It was working ok on rogues with the right gear, and yes it gave too much power to other builds. Why not just make it unavailable if you take a class. And if you try to bypass, you can't take that class if you choose the feat. Yes Pally gets penalized, but not EVERYONE ELSE!

[Braegan]

See:



Trying to say that nerfs affect everybody, and new players are no exception. No new players means no new income. Old players leave, none come in, game dies. Not complicated. I wonder if devs ever test changes on undergeared first lifers to ensure new players aren't scared off.

As posted previously the challenge level of the game on Elite is not designed nor catered towards new players. If some want to be brave and slug through it, that's fine but that is not the target audience of that difficulty. That said, playing on Normal I seriously doubt even new players are finding the overall game difficult. Sure, there are the occasional quests that present unique and tougher challenges but those are the minority.

By and large this game has been made easier and easier. Pulling back a bit on the reigns is good for the game right now.

[Gothdom]

I'll grant you, the ship buffs, particularly the resists, make a large difference. Those aren't actually unavailable to new players though, they just need to join a guild. That's a good idea if possible even if there weren't any buffs. .

In a level 2 quest on normal, the mobs hit for about 1-2 damage, maybe. In fact, just having run through misery peak on elite, they don't do much more. I did have cure serious wounds pots. I also had a hireling, not because i needed it, but i just like bringing them along. I was with one other player. Nothing in there is that dangerous. For one thing, they die too fast. That's everybody not just vets. The weapons are stronger than they used to be. Just having something like flaming on a weapon makes a noticeable difference at that level.

I guess the main difference for me vs a new player is that i no longer waste my time doing things that don't work, i.e. strafing, tumbling, generally moving around a lot with the idea that somehow it will make the mobs miss me. I learned a long time ago that the mobs hit me just as much, so i stopped doing those things. I have learned which actions actually do have an effect, and when to make them. I no longer panic when my hit points begin to drop, i just take steps to fix it.

Not every new player to DDO knows about sunny and snowy side Korthos. Most don't even know about guilds and ship buffs

[UurlockYgmeov]

As posted previously the challenge level of the game on Elite is not designed nor catered towards new players. If some want to be brave and slug through it, that's fine but that is not the target audience of that difficulty. That said, playing on Normal I seriously doubt even new players are finding the overall game difficult. Sure, there are the occasional quests that present unique and tougher challenges but those are the minority.

By and large this game has been made easier and easier. Pulling back a bit on the reigns is good for the game right now.

well said and I agree.


/humerousranton
Paladin has SO much more to offer than Ranger... and people seem to forget lay on hands, deathward, zeal, and so many other perks. if you want DPS then play a DPS specific class. Paladin was never intended to be TOP dps. So if you add up everything paladin has you get a MUST play this class --- and that is absolutely chronically bad for the game.

Should a 2WF Ranger out dps a 2WF Paladin? yes. total package of ranger abilities vs paladin abilities mean the paladin gives up some dps for useful spells, self healing, armor etc. (except for against chaotic evil outsiders, the Paladin should reign supreme).

I always find it so amusing that when discussing changes to a class that make it do less DPS, two things are never factored in: overall class or total class perks / advantages and total class balance. How about this: we keep the Paladin as the highest DPS - but strip out all self healing and spells and deity.... oh wait, then you get something called... a fighter.

hyperbole: Having your cake and eating it too makes the game die because now there are only paladins in the world... how boring. ;p

/humerousrantoff

[EllisDee37]

Korthos is just being used as an example of how the game isn't friendly to new players. All these changes are being made to nerf elitists, completionists, etc, but nobody takes into account how it affects people who are on their first lives and playing through for the first time. The game is not friendly to new players because it is built/balanced for experienced/geared players.A brand new player starting right now has it orders of magnitude easier than I did when I started back in 2011. There's just so much more player power and defense at low levels it's not even in the same ballpark.

[Nestroy]

A brand new player starting right now has it orders of magnitude easier than I did when I started back in 2011. There's just so much more player power and defense at low levels it's not even in the same ballpark.

There is so much more you need to know nowadays than you needed back in 2011. Many more classes, options, enhancements. New players more often than not are completely lost in all the possibilities they find in DDO.

[UurlockYgmeov]

A brand new player starting right now has it orders of magnitude easier than I did when I started back in 2011. There's just so much more player power and defense at low levels it's not even in the same ballpark.

true.

[unbongwah]

There is so much more you need to know nowadays than you needed back in 2011. Many more classes, options, enhancements. New players more often than not are completely lost in all the possibilities they find in DDO.
Sure, but that's been true for a long time; it's both the best and worst thing about DDO. It also has nothing to do with the forthcoming balance nerfs discussed in this thread.

Plus let's not forget: if by "newbie" we mean "F2P first-lifer," they're not going to have access to Hard or Elite quests right off the bat. They'll have to level the old-fashioned way: starting with Normal quests in snowy Korthos. If said newbie throws themselves into the deep end by joining an Elite PUG run by vets plowing thru their current TR...well, they'll learn pretty quickly why that's not the best way to learn the game for themselves, won't they? :eek:

EDIT: the idea these balance changes are somehow going to make Normal leveling that challenging are beyond absurd.

[Mirta]

As posted previously the challenge level of the game on Elite is not designed nor catered towards new players. If some want to be brave and slug through it, that's fine but that is not the target audience of that difficulty. That said, playing on Normal I seriously doubt even new players are finding the overall game difficult. Sure, there are the occasional quests that present unique and tougher challenges but those are the minority.

Fair enough.


By and large this game has been made easier and easier. Pulling back a bit on the reigns is good for the game right now.

It seems like the whole intent of this is to try to get diversity in player builds, not to increase difficulty. Increasing difficulty is just an unintended side effect that may or may not be worth complaining about. I have heard how they want to bring warlocks, barbs, pallies, twf'ers in line with other builds, but haven't seen them make those other builds worth playing. Instead they're just punishing the people who put time and effort into specific builds. Those people aren't just going to change to other classes because they lost a little power.

To the devs: Again, where is the fighter/sorc/wiz/healer pass that will make these worth playing? Please don't try to balance things before you fix those. You'll just end up having to do this "balance" thing again.

[patang01]

You're overstating the hitbox issues. This game is so easy that you should be jumping in the middle of EE mobs and swinging while rotating in a circle. You don't "need" to take out casters. You don't "need" to line up attacks. This is DDO 2015. Jump in the middle of those EE mobs and heal through the punishment. They can't kill you anyways. Heck, when I play on my crappy laptop, I jump in the middle of EE mobs WHILE graphically stuttering and still don't die. THAT is where this game has gone. THAT is what the devs are trying to fix.

The problem with this fix is that the Barb jumping into the middle will still do it. Classes that normally couldn't are the ones that suffer from across the board nerf's. It's a fix with a maul.

[Nestroy]

Sure, but that's been true for a long time; it's both the best and worst thing about DDO. It also has nothing to do with the forthcoming balance nerfs discussed in this thread.

Plus let's not forget: if by "newbie" we mean "F2P first-lifer," they're not going to have access to Hard or Elite quests right off the bat. They'll have to level the old-fashioned way: starting with Normal quests in snowy Korthos. If said newbie throws themselves into the deep end by joining an Elite PUG run by vets plowing thru their current TR...well, they'll learn pretty quickly why that's not the best way to learn the game for themselves, won't they? :eek:

EDIT: the idea these balance changes are somehow going to make Normal leveling that challenging are beyond absurd.

I will not argue against this. Except for the fact that "normal" quests still are "hard" to do for absolute newbies. Heck, even I (and I consinder myself to be in the "Vet" category meanwhile) had a good time running Heytons on Normal the other day when I tried a server I haven´t been on to for a very long time. And I had deleted my toons there then. Well... Heyton died. Because I did forget to bring a healer hire... Shame on me. This had been normal. Was a hard reminder that I am not invincible in DDO. :)

We all had been new to DDO once. Some seem to forget this fact from time to time.

Regarding the nerfs and back to topic: Some are OK, some are not. The most annoying thing are not the nerfs per se - we had this before in DDO and the pendulum swings from time to time, from pyjama to heavy armor back to pyjama, e.g. The most annoying thing with these nerfs: They come bundled. And they are turning back time well into 2013, when Pally was in the dog shed and pyjama builds were roaming everywhere. And where you got denied group access in raids when you did not have rog 2 evasion. The only diffeence, as far as I can see: The Bard remains out of the dog house for now.

[tsteigner]

Sure, but that's been true for a long time; it's both the best and worst thing about DDO. It also has nothing to do with the forthcoming balance nerfs discussed in this thread.

Plus let's not forget: if by "newbie" we mean "F2P first-lifer," they're not going to have access to Hard or Elite quests right off the bat. They'll have to level the old-fashioned way: starting with Normal quests in snowy Korthos. If said newbie throws themselves into the deep end by joining an Elite PUG run by vets plowing thru their current TR...well, they'll learn pretty quickly why that's not the best way to learn the game for themselves, won't they? :eek:

EDIT: the idea these balance changes are somehow going to make Normal leveling that challenging are beyond absurd.
i see that completly different, those changes are hurting new player's more then veteran's (with vet i call anyone 5-6+ TR + 2-3 iTR / eTR) because they don't know whats ahead of them in this quest and where, and taking away a bit of failsave (which these changes do) is hurting them not only on e but also on h + n .......

And to the joining PUG's on elite, i don't know where most of those which are for this changes are playing on, but i can tell you on my server, the only groups you will find, beside guild groups are elite ....

so finally, vet's aren't gonna be hurt much by these changes, they know what to do to counter them, and will be back to the status quo in 1 week latest, but new players (all not already having 2-3 TR's) will be scared away by something which is in their mind to hard. And a mmo doesn't live by the top 1% but by the majority that makes up the rest 99%.

I stay in the same mind as some already mentioned, rather then use a 2ton sledgehammer to punch everything down, make a new difficuility (sp?) for the quests, which can only be accessed if you have completionist and make it so no hirelings, no ship buffs, no PL or whatever in that diff and leave the rest as it is ... so those who feel everything is to easy can try their "new" builds on this diff.

[EllisDee37]

To the devs: Again, where is the fighter/sorc/wiz/healer pass that will make these worth playing? Please don't try to balance things before you fix those. You'll just end up having to do this "balance" thing again.This is what bothers me the most. They buff a bunch of (but not all) classes, one at a time, and now they're globally nerfing all those recently-buffed classes because they're too strong. What that says to me is tons of wasted development time.

Actually, that isn't what bothers me the most. What bothers me the most is that they're destroying staff builds, because they're making some weird, arbitrary and unfounded distinction that assassins and swashbucklers are in one category, but acrobats are not in that same category. Because now quarterstaffs are viewed as strong weapons, for some reason? It's infuriating.

[Spoonwelder]

You're overstating the hitbox issues. This game is so easy that you should be jumping in the middle of EE mobs and swinging while rotating in a circle. You don't "need" to take out casters. You don't "need" to line up attacks. This is DDO 2015. Jump in the middle of those EE mobs and heal through the punishment. They can't kill you anyways. Heck, when I play on my crappy laptop, I jump in the middle of EE mobs WHILE graphically stuttering and still don't die. THAT is where this game has gone. THAT is what the devs are trying to fix.

You and maybe 2 others per server.....If anything is an overstatement it is what you just wrote.

I have 16 alts and only one would I consider EE capable. As in I can enter EE (at level) and contribute. At level he can solo some of the easiest EE content. But he is my completionist with the best gear I have (still missing a few of the little things that could improve him but still mostly top end). Even he doesn't sit in a group of EE mobs for more than a second without having to jump out and heal. Something as easy as Unquiet Graves with 4-5 drow hitting you like Mack trucks even with 100AC/120PRR/70MRR/Displaced/Ghostly you get hit and hit hard.



Displace/Ghostly only stops 45% of hits (presuming you have no appreciable dodge if you have major PRR)
200PRR only stops 50% of damage (and most people don't have 200 - most are around 100)
100 AC doesnt really do anything in EE - so lets call that a miss on a 1 so now we are at hit 40% of the time.

So when you are getting 40% of the time for 100/hit (after PRR) and getting swung at by 4-5 mobs at even on swing a second an 1000HP character is hopping out after 3-4 seconds to heal and maybe you killed one of them during that foray.

Yeah - no that ain't happening. Maybe in WW but not in EE anything.

[bloodnose13]

Divine Grace (Paladin)
Divine Grace now provides a maximum bonus equal to 2 + (Paladin level x 3).


idk but feels to me like giveing out +8 to save just for 2 levels is still too much, 2+1 per pally level would work better in my opinion (it would make 2 levels grant max bonus of 4 that would progress up by +1 per each another level, 14 level pally would be allowed a +16 and thats 42 charisma, dont think that there are many of paladin builds that go much higher than 34 cha at lvl 20), ofc if this value would not work for pure class paladins so before this there could be added a check if paladin levels equal total levels and then if its not, activate the cap.

[blerkington]

This is what bothers me the most. They buff a bunch of (but not all) classes, one at a time, and now they're globally nerfing all those recently-buffed classes because they're too strong. What that says to me is tons of wasted development time.

Actually, that isn't what bothers me the most. What bothers me the most is that they're destroying staff builds, because they're making some weird, arbitrary and unfounded distinction that assassins and swashbucklers are in one category, but acrobats are not in that same category. Because now quarterstaffs are viewed as strong weapons, for some reason? It's infuriating.

Hi,

I couldn't agree more. Some of the forum community warned the developers about overbuffing classes since the first class pass they did. Then they did four more, and look where we are now. When will they get it through their heads that overbuffing and then nerfing later is the route of maximum disruption and community ill-will?

Anyone who still thinks the development team has some sort of coherent vision for the game is kidding themselves. They aren't 'wise', this isn't the 'miracle of capitalism' in which they are sensibly adjusting the game based on careful analysis of data they've collected in order to obtain the most money from us. That's all just nonsense. They're just chasing their tails, going around in circles at a stage of the game when we can afford it the least.

Very few people are going to be pleased by all of these nerfs; they affect nearly everyone in some way and when we come out the end of it, the game will arguably be no more enjoyable or better balanced than before. Even though I've advocated nerfs for many of the things which are being addressed, I also think they've gone too far in several areas, only one of which even affects my characters.

The fact that the exercise is being done so quickly and with so little modification based on community feedback is typical of this team and a large part of what is engendering so much community ill-will. Barfing out dozens of controversial changes into one thread, giving little time for discussion and testing, then making it all live relatively unchanged shows this exercise for what it is; an arrogant 'take-that' from a producer whose feelings were hurt by players that refused recognise his genius and who he now wants to pay back before leaving.

Thanks.

[ghtzxc]

So this nerf basically affected my twf paladin 4 times in a row ?

First he lost a critical threat range on both weapons for a total of +2 loss.

Secoundly, holy sword only works on the main hand weapon when rangers can have their own version of holy sword through :

Deflect Arrows: You gain the benefits of the Deflect Arrows feat while dual wielding, knocking aside one incoming projectile that would have struck you every 6 seconds. +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier while dual wielding weapons.
Requires: Graceful Death, Ranger level 12

AND

Advanced Sneak Attack: +1 Sneak Attack Die. +10 Positive Spell Power. You gain a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range with your equipped weapons. (This does not apply to Shields or Unarmed). Your attacks now bypass 10% fortification.
Requires: Called Shot, Ranger level 12

Thirdly, the critical threat range effect from exalted smite was also reduced by +2 for not doubling with improved critical.

Exalted Smite: Active: An improved smite that adds +1/+1/+2 to your weapon's critical damage multiplier and 0/+1/+2 to your weapon's critical threat range.

Lastly, twf feats not providing melee power anymore.

So basically you are trying to say that every melee build except paladins should be specialized in wielding two handed weapons ?

What kind of joke is that, developers ? Finally after several years of playing a thf toon i for once wanted to play a twf paladin build i enjoy but now you are doing this ?

WHAT POINT IS THERE PLAYING A TWF PALADIN TOON AT ALL WHEN HOLY SWORD DOES NOT EVEN AFFECT YOUR OFF HAND WEAPON ?

Pure Rangers are now 60% ahead of twf paladins dps wise (30% before the holy sword nerf ) due to :

- As mentioned above, deflect arrows and advancing sneack attack tier 4 core abilities affecting both weapons main and off hand.

- Whirlwind: +5% Melee Doublestrike when dual wielding, +5 Incorporeality (stacking), +10% stacking chance to make off-hand attacks when dual wielding.

- Dervish: +4 Dexterity. +25% chance to doublestrike with your off-hand while dual wielding. While wearing light or no armor: +10 Melee Power, Physical Resistance Rating, and Magical Resistance Rating.

That means rangers are ahead of paladins by +40% doublestrike and a +1 crit multiplier/+1 crit threat ranger working on your offhand weapon.


Because of a little defense from sacred defender +25 prr / +25 mrr you are nerfing holy sword yet again ? You are aware that a pure ranger can get the same benefit defense wise through the capstone ability and prr/mrr per core ability let alone 5% stacking incorporeality, right ?

I am really going to cancel my vip subscription and delete the game if you are still considering gimping my only paladin build into crapiness :mad:.

Yes paladin is getting a nerf granted, but it's a nerf across the board so I think it's more fair to look at this relative to other classes taking advantage of crit-range expanding abilities being doubled by IC. I'll address each of your points here.

1. "First he lost a critical threat range on both weapons for a total of +2 loss."

Let's just be clear here, it's a +1 from each weapon due to HS expanded range not being multiplied by 2. That's not the same as a +2 loss. This is due to the change to IC; relative to other classes, paladins are not losing anything extra on the critical threat range expansion from HS (nothing is multiplied by the IC feat anymore with this upcoming update).

2. "holy sword only works on the main hand weapon when rangers can have their own version of holy sword"

Holy sword only working on the main hand is indeed a nerf directed at HS and paladin specifically and I agree that it's probably a little excessive. However, I'd be careful not to confuse this with ranger having their own version of HS. HS costs nothing more than 14 levels of Paladin to obtain; on the other hand, Ranger version of HS as you put it requires 12 Ranger levels but also 42 AP investment to obtain the level-12 cores in 2 enhancement trees. It's a lot more costly for Rangers to get their HS in this regard and also keep in mind that rangers don't have the option to take multiclass and spend 42 AP in other trees if they are to insist on obtaining their version of HS

3. "the critical threat range effect from exalted smite was also reduced by +2 for not doubling with improved critical".

I'm fairly certain that Exalted Smite's threat range was never doubled by Improved Critical; it was always a straight +2. Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, but as a long time paladin player I'm pretty confident this is the case. There is no additional nerf to Exalted Smite beyond the Improved Critical change that indirectly nerfs Exalted Smite through not multiplying a +1 crit-threat increase from HS and other crit-range expanding abilities. Again this is the same nerf that affects all classes using crit-range expanding abilities.

4. "twf feats not providing melee power anymore"

While not a paladin specific change, I would wait to see how this balances out with the faster attack animation on the TWF chain's 4th attack. Testing will have to be done to update Vanshilar's attack speed index which currently puts TWF at 102.2 swing animations per minute with a 15% attack speed boost such as you would find from Haste spell or Speed XV enchantment found on epic level items. Depending on the results, the overall outcome could be a nerf, a buff, or neither. (Link to Vanshilar's work for your reference: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/275144-Vanshilar-s-Attack-Speed-Index-and-Formulae)

Finally, the comparison between ranger and paladin at the end of your post could also be made without the balance change since rangers and paladins didn't get any extra nerfs or changes other than HS not applying to the offhand. (Ranger have these abilities in their cores already and they are not to be changed directly with the upcoming Balance Change).

It hardly seems fair to compare Ranger's 2 tier 4 cores, 1 tier 5 core, and 1 capstone vs 1 spell. I would think the difference would be greatly deflated if you made a fair and more comprehensive comparison which at least includes the respective Paladin cores.


(While we're on this topic however, I noticed you highlight 10 melee power from the ranger capstone which seems like a striking difference between the two classes at first until you see that the KotC capstone offers 10 melee power as well as part of it's effects. Also 10% extra offhand strikes is not the same as additional double strike. The actual difference in double strike should be 5% from Whirlwind and 25% offhand doublestrike from Dervish. (For the sake of simplicity and as you seem to be doing, we'll say DS = offhand DS).

You are also omitting Zeal as a paladin exclusive buff to double strike, bringing the difference down to 20%.

If you were to translate this into raw % difference in DPS solely based on the amount of double strike, then you need to take into account other sources of double strike as well. A twf player would reasonably have ~10% enhancement bonus from items/DC destiny's Celestial Champion, Perfect TWF feat with 5% double strike and 10% offhand double strike. That's 25% double strike as a baseline. Take 145% over 125% that's only a 16% difference in overall DPS, significantly lower than 40%. Add in Martial Epic Destiny Past Life Doublestrike Stance (9%), that difference becomes less than 15% difference in terms of calculating raw % DPS difference from double strike alone. And that's not taking into account if you were to do a equal comparison by adding the respective paladin cores.)

On PRR and MRR: I don't think they are nerfing HS because of the PRR and MRR in SD. That's not the message I got from the devs here. They claim to nerf HS because it was overperforming in terms of TWF and it's interaction with IC feat (their claim, not mine). On a separate note, their concern with SD's 25 PRR/MRR isn't that paladins could get it but rather that it was relatively easy to obtain with a 3 paladin splash and just 6 AP. (Again, their reasoning.) Indeed you recognize this when you say that rangers can get something equivalent through their capstone which requires a 41 AP investment and inhibits any multiclassing.

All in all, I think you would be much happier if you took a more comprehensive and fairer comparison. I don't believe it's as bad as you believe it to be in your post. My estimate is that TWF Paladins will still be an extremely viable and strong build should the current balance changes go through to live. These nerfs are for the most part across the board so relatively speaking it doesn't make paladins so much weaker vs other classes as it makes everyone affected by the balance change weaker vs mobs in general. I'm in the same boat as you playing a long time TWF paladin myself. =)

Hope that helps!~

[Thar]

Dance of Death is currently the most powerful ability in the game on live. It is stronger than Holy Sword, crit profiles, and bugged double shot combined.

I give it one week for this to be discovered, when people finally start migrating to it from crit profile.

hahaha... not even close to most powerful in game. it's just newly discovered for those in ranger. it doesn't even do what it advertises due to hit box issues.

[Walking_Ride]

Yes paladin is getting a nerf granted, but it's a nerf across the board so I think it's more fair to look at this relative to other classes taking advantage of crit-range expanding abilities being doubled by IC. I'll address each of your points here.

1. "First he lost a critical threat range on both weapons for a total of +2 loss."

Let's just be clear here, it's a +1 from each weapon due to HS expanded range not being multiplied by 2. That's not the same as a +2 loss. This is due to the change to IC; relative to other classes, paladins are not losing anything extra on the critical threat range expansion from HS (nothing is multiplied by the IC feat anymore with this upcoming update).

2. "holy sword only works on the main hand weapon when rangers can have their own version of holy sword"

Holy sword only working on the main hand is indeed a nerf directed at HS and paladin specifically and I agree that it's probably a little excessive. However, I'd be careful not to confuse this with ranger having their own version of HS. HS costs nothing more than 14 levels of Paladin to obtain; on the other hand, Ranger version of HS as you put it requires 12 Ranger levels but also 42 AP investment to obtain the level-12 cores in 2 enhancement trees. It's a lot more costly for Rangers to get their HS in this regard and also keep in mind that rangers don't have the option to take multiclass and spend 42 AP in other trees if they are to insist on obtaining their version of HS

3. "the critical threat range effect from exalted smite was also reduced by +2 for not doubling with improved critical".

I'm fairly certain that Exalted Smite's threat range was never doubled by Improved Critical; it was always a straight +2. Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, but as a long time paladin player I'm pretty confident this is the case. There is no additional nerf to Exalted Smite beyond the Improved Critical change that indirectly nerfs Exalted Smite through not multiplying a +1 crit-threat increase from HS and other crit-range expanding abilities. Again this is the same nerf that affects all classes using crit-range expanding abilities.

4. "twf feats not providing melee power anymore"

While not a paladin specific change, I would wait to see how this balances out with the faster attack animation on the TWF chain's 4th attack. Testing will have to be done to update Vanshilar's attack speed index which currently puts TWF at 102.2 swing animations per minute with a 15% attack speed boost such as you would find from Haste spell or Speed XV enchantment found on epic level items. Depending on the results, the overall outcome could be a nerf, a buff, or neither. (Link to Vanshilar's work for your reference: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/275144-Vanshilar-s-Attack-Speed-Index-and-Formulae)

Finally, the comparison between ranger and paladin at the end of your post could also be made without the balance change since rangers and paladins didn't get any extra nerfs or changes other than HS not applying to the offhand. (Ranger have these abilities in their coes already and they are not to be changed directly with the upcoming Balance Change).

It hardly seems fair to compare Ranger's 2 tier 4 cores, 1 tier 5 core, and 1 capstone against 1 spell offered by level 14 Paladin. I would think the difference would be greatly deflated if you made a fair and more comprehensive comparison with the respective Paladin cores.


(While we're on this topic however, I noticed you highlight 10 melee power from the ranger capstone which seems like a striking difference between the two classes at first until you see that the KotC capstone offers 10 melee power as well as part of it's effects. Also 10% extra offhand strikes is not the same as additional double strike. The actual difference in double strike should be 5% from Whirlwind and 25% offhand doublestrike from Dervish. (For the sake of simplicity we'll say DS = offhand DS).

You are also omitting Zeal as a paladin exclusive buff to double strike, bringing the difference down to 20%.

If you were to translate this into raw % difference in DPS solely based on the amount of double strike, then you need to take into account other sources of double strike as well. A twf player would reasonably have ~10% enhancement bonus from items/DC destiny's Celestial Champion, Perfect TWF feat with 5% double strike and 10% offhand double strike. That's 25% double strike as a baseline. Take 145% over 125% that's only a 16% difference in overall DPS, significantly lower than 40%. Add in Martial Epic Destiny Past Life Doublestrike Stance (9%), that difference becomes less than 15% difference in terms of calculating raw % DPS difference from double strike alone. And that's not taking into account if you were to do a equal comparison by adding the respective paladin cores.)

On PRR and MRR: I don't think they are nerfing HS because of the PRR and MRR in SD. That's not the message I got from the devs here. They claim to nerf HS because it was overperforming in terms of TWF and it's interaction with IC feat (their claim, not mine). On a separate note, their concern with SD's 25 PRR/MRR isn't that paladins could get it but rather that it was relatively easy to obtain with a 3 paladin splash and just 6 AP. (Again, their reasoning.) Indeed you recognize this when you say that rangers can get something equivalent through their capstone which requires a 41 AP investment and inhibits any multiclassing.

All in all, I think you would be much happier if you took a more comprehensive and fairer comparison. I don't believe it's as bad as you believe it to be in your post. My estimate is that TWF Paladins will still be an extremely viable and strong build should the current balance changes go through to live. These nerfs are for the most part across the board so relatively speaking it doesn't make paladins so much weaker vs other classes so much that it makes everyone affected weaker vs mobs in general. I'm in the same boat as you playing a long time TWF paladin myself. =)

Hope that helps!~


Total gain for rangers compared to paladins :

Fortification bypass : 10(Advanced Sneak Attack) + 10 (Mark of the Hunted) + 25%(Mark of the Hunted) = 45% more than paladins.

Doublestrike : Dervish (25%) offhand + 10% offhand (whirlwind) + 5% mainhand (whirlwind) = 40% - 10 % zeal paladin spell = 30% more than paladins.

Oh yea paladins will loose on exalted smite/divine sacrifice if they choose to take killer from deepwood stalker. While rangers keep exposing strike.

So another +20% doublestrike for a total of 30% + 20 % = 50 % more than pali

+5 Incorporeality (stacking) (whirlwind) + deflect arrows every 2 sec.

Oh, yes especially this too. For rangers off hand weapons are affected by +1 critical threat range and +1 critical multiplier which translates to ~ 26 % dps.

...

Just some informative numbers. If that helps.

[Walking_Ride]

hahaha... not even close to most powerful in game. it's just newly discovered for those in ranger. it doesn't even do what it advertises due to hit box issues.

Even maxed out i am only able to hit 2 targets...

[Spoonwelder]

Even maxed out i am only able to hit 2 targets...
I found the same thing....I had been running a 15/3/2 Pal/Rng/Fi in various forms for ETRing (after pally update but before ranger) and people kept going on and on about the 15/5 variant and how great dance of death was and how I should be in 15/4/1 or even 14/4/2 (it was so good you could forgo Zeal?)

I tried a simpler 15/5 and was totally underwhelmed.. I was losing alot of AP to get to that and I wasn't getting nearly the level of AOE damage I could get out of a simple Cleave/Avenging Cleave rotation with KOTC. I tried it both ways with that build (T5 Tempest/T5 KotC) and was much happier with KOTC....to the extent that after I was done my Warlock lives when I TR'd I went full Pally Vangaurd. I will admit my DPS is down a bit but my durability is way up.

[Walking_Ride]

I found the same thing....I had been running a 15/3/2 Pal/Rng/Fi in various forms for ETRing (after pally update but before ranger) and people kept going on and on about the 15/5 variant and how great dance of death was and how I should be in 15/4/1 or even 14/4/2 (it was so good you could forgo Zeal?)

I tried a simpler 15/5 and was totally underwhelmed.. I was losing alot of AP to get to that and I wasn't getting nearly the level of AOE damage I could get out of a simple Cleave/Avenging Cleave rotation with KOTC. I tried it both ways with that build (T5 Tempest/T5 KotC) and was much happier with KOTC....to the extent that after I was done my Warlock lives when I TR'd I went full Pally Vangaurd. I will admit my DPS is down a bit but my durability is way up.

Yep, it is hilarious. Nerfing holy sword again because of this **** is beyond my understanding.

[Thar]

Total gain for rangers compared to paladins :

Fortification bypass : 10(Advanced Sneak Attack) + 10 (Mark of the Hunted) + 25%(Mark of the Hunted) = 45% more than paladins.

Doublestrike : Dervish (25%) offhand + 10% offhand (whirlwind) + 5% mainhand (whirlwind) = 40% - 10 % zeal paladin spell = 30% more than paladins.

Oh yea paladins will loose on exalted smite/divine sacrifice if they choose to take killer from deepwood stalker. While rangers keep exposing strike.

So another +20% doublestrike for a total of 30% + 20 % = 50 % more than pali

+5 Incorporeality (stacking) (whirlwind) + deflect arrows every 2 sec.

Oh, yes especially this too. For rangers off hand weapons are affected by +1 critical threat range and +1 critical multiplier which translates to ~ 26 % dps.

...

Just some informative numbers. If that helps.

total gain for pally's - heavy armor and prr so they can survive getting hit. you do no dps as a stone. get 7d6 light damage, cleaves, stance, AC and speed boost from vanguard.

not saying this change is good but don't throw all the good ranger stats and forget the good pally info too.

[unbongwah]

What bothers me the most is that they're destroying staff builds, because they're making some weird, arbitrary and unfounded distinction that assassins and swashbucklers are in one category, but acrobats are not in that same category. Because now quarterstaffs are viewed as strong weapons, for some reason? It's infuriating.
The ones I really pity are the Kensei holdouts, who are about to see Keen Edge's effectiveness cut in half...like they weren't struggling enough to keep up! :(

EDIT: my solution would've been simpler - keep Imp Crit's current functionality, but only apply it to the weapon's base crit range; any crit range bonuses from PrEs or EDs are applied after IC, not before. So weapons like Sireth, eSOS, etc. get to keep their base crit profile, but lose the free doubling of extra crit range bonuses, which seems to be what Turbine is really trying to nerf. In instances where this nerfs DPS too much (e.g., Celestial Champion), they can increase those crit range bonuses instead.

[CrackedIce]

The ones I really pity are the Kensei holdouts, who are about to see Keen Edge's effectiveness cut in half...like they weren't struggling enough to keep up! :(mu

I'm assuming that they will make keen edge +2 when they get to kensei as they were the original crit threat enhancement.

[Walking_Ride]

total gain for pally's - heavy armor and prr so they can survive getting hit. you do no dps as a stone. get 7d6 light damage, cleaves, stance, AC and speed boost from vanguard.

not saying this change is good but don't throw all the good ranger stats and forget the good pally info too.

Lmao, is that all you have to offer ? Not trying to undermine rangers here. But i am pointing out on why paladins do not deserve such a punishment.

[alancarp]

... grinding through our high end test kobolds ...
Sev~

I so want a high-end test kobold to whale on.

[Vyrzain]

Greetings.


Improved Critical
These feats now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

Keen
This loot effect now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

Sev~

Impact and Keen the same ?

This could be a minor oversight but I wanted to at least give a quick post on it. I have been burnt before with a post from Severlin when planning what I wanted to play and what was in said post vs what is live.

Anyway,

Is it safe to assume the wording should be “Keen / Impact”?

http://ddowiki.com/page/Keen
Piercing & Slashing weapons…. The base critical threat range of this weapon is doubled

http://ddowiki.com/page/Impact
Bludgeoning weapons…. The base critical threat range of this weapon is doubled

OR

Are Bludgeoning weapons with Impact still going to follow the old Crit system?

Because I am only seeing Piercing & Slashing weapons with modifiers over +1.

[Souless]

Changes look good to me and it seems that most of the folks upset are running toons based on some or many of these exploits. Which is kind of surprising because they know these builds are temporary when they invest in them. I have toons that will be effected by these changes but none of them will break because of them. So it's not that I am uneffected or don't understand. I like the idea of a balanced game where many different builds are viable even if they require, omg don't say it, a team. Everyone needs to remember that this is a game to be played for fun, by everyone, and flavors of the month are just that. Keep up the good work devs and don't be swayed by players who's only interest in the game is the kill count.

Thanks for your hard work

This will be my last post on this topic as you guys at Turbine are going to implement whatever changes you want regardless of the rants that are here in these forums.

But what I find funny is: this is Warsmurf's 1st post. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahahahahahahahaha

As for everyone that has said that the game is "too easy" I double-dog dare you to get a group of your friends together, go in DoJ on EN (I'm not even asking u to make it through EE or EH for that matter), get to the final fight, and I say what the heck, kill the worm. Your task is to survive (on a non-evasion build) 1 bombardment.

The Bytcher~

[ghtzxc]

Total gain for rangers compared to paladins :

Fortification bypass : 10(Advanced Sneak Attack) + 10 (Mark of the Hunted) + 25%(Mark of the Hunted) = 45% more than paladins.

Doublestrike : Dervish (25%) offhand + 10% offhand (whirlwind) + 5% mainhand (whirlwind) = 40% - 10 % zeal paladin spell = 30% more than paladins.

Oh yea paladins will loose on exalted smite/divine sacrifice if they choose to take killer from deepwood stalker. While rangers keep exposing strike.

So another +20% doublestrike for a total of 30% + 20 % = 50 % more than pali

+5 Incorporeality (stacking) (whirlwind) + deflect arrows every 2 sec.

Oh, yes especially this too. For rangers off hand weapons are affected by +1 critical threat range and +1 critical multiplier which translates to ~ 26 % dps.

"Fortification Bypass"

True yes, but I don't see how the balance update nerfs or affects this other than empowering those with less fortification bypass (paladins) slightly due to the less crits everyone will be getting post-balance.

"Double Strike"

Right again, but none of this is changed by the balance update. (Technically, Whirlwind gives +10% offhand proc chance, not +10% offhand doublestrike, though effectively I see your point.) It's still not any different post-balance update though.

"Oh yea paladins will loose on exalted smite/divine sacrifice if they choose to take killer from deepwood stalker. While rangers keep exposing strike."

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Killer is a t4 enhancement from DWS and so if you're talking about multiclassing I don't see why you couldn't get both Exalted Smite + Divine Sacrifice as well as Killer. If you were a multiclass with 6 ranger you could get Exposing Strike as well. Since we were talking about capstones earlier, how about we stick with the pure class for discussion's sake?

"+5 Incorporeality (stacking) (whirlwind) + deflect arrows every 2 sec"

These are both available already and not affected directly by the balance update either.

"For rangers off hand weapons are affected by +1 critical threat range and +1 critical multiplier which translates to ~ 26 % dps"

While I might agree that HS nerf to not affect the offhand might be excessive, I find it hard to believe that over a quarter of your DPS comes from a +1 critical multiplier and +1 critical threat range from roughly half your attacks due to it being only on your offhand. (Actually even less that half since double strike applies to main hand and sources of *offhand* double strike are significantly rarer for paladins (only 10% from Perfect TWF)).

Perhaps we could have a look at how you calculated that +1 crit multiplier threat on just the offhand is responsible for 26% of your dps? I'm getting more like ~9.5% TOTAL dps loss from the IC nerf and the HS offhand nerf, with the IC nerf being responsible for about ~6.5% of that dps loss and the +1 crit range and multiplier on the offhand only responsible for ~3% of that dps loss. This is in LD. 3% is no where near 26%.

It seems more like you're just comparing paladins vs rangers in general and I certainly don't have a problem with it but I really do think you'll be happier with paladin if you took a more comprehensive and apples-to-apples comparison. You're highlighting many advantages of ranger such as double strike but I think it's unfair to leave out the advantages of paladin when you're making your DPS conclusions, Divine Sacrifice/Exalted Smite, free Cleaves that are more powerful than the feats, superior healing amplification, and scaling light damage procs.

I'm not sure why you're so fixated on rangers but I think "this other class has this, I want it too" is a rather poor argument given that almost everything you mentioned about rangers vs paladins was not even changed in the Balance Update (the ranger cores you mentioned weren't touched in the release notes). The ONLY thing that nerfs paladins specifically from this update is the holy sword off hand nerf which you claim is 26% of your DPS. Do you have any calculations/tests to back this up?

[elvesunited]

So if I'm to understand my warlock's ability to use Eldritch burst, spirit blast, consume, stricken while wearing heavy armor and tower shield is a bug? If so that really sucks as I've designed my warlock tank around it what I thought was a feature of the class.

any word of critical range change and wolf animal form and bards swashbucling with low crit range weapons? ( such as swashbuckling thrower builds? )

What's everyone got against an armored mage? It takes a lot of gear and abilities to get the ASF down far enough. And it only gives an edge to survival. They're still pretty squishy.

[zerit2002]

You're overstating the hitbox issues. This game is so easy that you should be jumping in the middle of EE mobs and swinging while rotating in a circle. You don't "need" to take out casters. You don't "need" to line up attacks. This is DDO 2015. Jump in the middle of those EE mobs and heal through the punishment. They can't kill you anyways. Heck, when I play on my crappy laptop, I jump in the middle of EE mobs WHILE graphically stuttering and still don't die. THAT is where this game has gone. THAT is what the devs are trying to fix.

LOL I don't think we are playing the same DDO.

[maddong]

hahaha... not even close to most powerful in game. it's just newly discovered for those in ranger. it doesn't even do what it advertises due to hit box issues.

Tree form?

[Ladywolf]

There are way better builds in epic than warlocks. I'm saddened you are again nerfing them. In heroics they are overpowered. In epics they are not. It doesn't make sense to nerf end game for a heroic imbalance

[Bluenoser]

Two weapon paladins are still doing better DPS than Paladins using two handed weapons or single weapon fighting by a good margin. But by all means, we'd love to see some test numbers from Lamannia! We added some bigger DPS kobolds in the test dojo to help players test.

Sev~

This comment troubles me, since it is a) wrong, and b) reflects a failure to grasp the trade-offs players make when they choose a playstyle.

TWF (non-Tempest): excellent single-target DPS, terrible AoE melee damage (and DDO is an endless stream of massive groups of mobs--not training dummies--especially the newer content); lose stat-based damage modifier and benefit of Power Attack on off-hand weapons; only get +5 from PA on main-hand weapon; cleaves only use main-hand weapon. Requires heavy investment in Dex to get full line of feats, which comes at expense of damage-dealing stat (unless Ranger is splashed and Tempest Improved Weapon Finesse is taken). Weaker defense than sword-and-board (including swash bard with buckler option). Also, requires twice as many weapons and inventory space. Notably, the feat that should allow better AOE melee damage, Whirlwind Attack, has been bugged for years (does not work with weapons) and requires a staggering four prerequisite feats, including the effectively-useless Combat Expertise feat that requires 13 Int.

TWF (Tempest): now negates much of the bad above, with large bonuses for doublestrike and off-hand procs, full damage from stat for offhand weapon, and Dance of Death. Tempests can also use their dex for damage (even without taking the weapon finesse feat first).

THF: good single-target DPS, best AOE melee damage thanks to cleaves, glancing blows, full benefit of damage-dealing stat, and +10 from PA. Can focus on just main damage-dealing stat (or reasonable cha for pallies, int for Harper, to get boosts to damage). Best weapon option in the game, with ESOS. Weaker defense than sword-and-board (including swash bard with buckler option).

SWF: good single-target DPS, good AOE damage from cleaves and (with Dwarven War Axe, B-sword or 'Bsword' Shortswords like Sun Blade, Star of Day and Celestia), glancing blows. Much better if combined with bard swashbuckler. Weaker defense than sword-and-board, but over-the-top with swash Skirmisher and buckler use when combined with fighter Defensive stance. Full damage to weapon from stat, +5 from PA (or Precision, if enhancement from Swash taken). Like THF, can focus on main damage stat + cha or int for boost.

S&B: best melee defense, typically weakest DPS, though can still be good with khopesh, B-Sword or D-Axe, PA and cleaves and the shield mastery line. Shield-bashing Vanguards can be strong defensively and offensively, but much less so if unable to cast HS on their shield.

So, yes, against a stationary, single-target training dummy, TWF dps shines. In the actual game, against the nearly-constant groups of moving. hard-hitting mobs, non-Tempest TWF is much less impressive than THF or a cleaving SWF (and far, far behind a swashbuckler with skirmisher and shield mastery feats + a defensive stance). Even buffed by Holy Sword on both weapons, a TWF pally is simply not that OP.

What I sense is really going on here is that the devs figured out belatedly just how good it is to mix 15 pal with 5 ranger, taking the tier 5 tempest tree and combining it with holy sword. Fair enough, that might be too good (wouldn't know, haven't run it, but many have). The problem is not HS tho--it's the silliness of allowing very powerful tier 5 class enhancements with only 5 levels of the class. A much better solution would be to move some of those tier 5s into Ranger Tempest core abilities, or to just require more ranger levels. HS was required to make paladins competitive in combat--their infamous weakness in DDO. It should not be changed to punish entire melee (or for that matter, ranged) playstyles unnecessarily.

[Bloodskittle]

I am catching up on the thread. I apologize for not replying yesterday as I spent a lot of time chasing down the character transfer issues trying to get that back up for Lamannia. We are still working on that.

That said, there's some interesting feedback here and I wanted to give the players some insight into our current thoughts as we head towards some testing on Lamannia:

~ The changes to Improved Critical do mess up the balance for Assassins between kukri and daggers, and for Swashbucklers who can take enhancements to normalize weapon types. We are going to implement additional changes so that characters who have the Improved Critical feat will gain extra threat range for under performing weapons to maintain the weapon balance you have live using these builds.

~ Since Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars have a reduced rate of fire, fishing for Mortal Fear and similar procs will be slightly less effective. We understand this and designed with this in mind.

~ With the bug in certain Fury of the Wild enhancements, Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars can be used to get back uses of Adrenaline. With the new reduced rate of fire of Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars, utilizing this bug will be slightly less effective. We understand and have designed around this. We want to either legitimize this build by changing the wording on Fury Eternal so it officially supports ranged attacks or fix the bug, and we are looking forward to feedback on this from Lamannia.

~ It's not that we mind two weapon fighting Paladins doing decent DPS, or two weapon barbarians doing decent DPS, but these builds should not be outperforming builds based on other styles by 40% or higher.

~ We will be watching Vanguard Paladin builds to make sure they are still fun and competitive after the changes.

~ We think there has been a lot of good discussion in particular on MRR, armor, and whether these changes will put us back into a state where everyone feel compelled to take Evasion. We have read suggestions that some smaller amount of MRR might be added back to armors and we've been looking at that option. I just wanted to point out the reductions do not put us back to pre Armor Up balance. The PRR formula is more generous, and the PRR offered by armor is still higher. Heavy armor mitigates a lot more damage than before Armor Up. In addition, there are many sources of MRR, including gear, that simply did not exist before, including enhancements that only work with medium or heavy armors. Armored characters are still in much better shape than in the past, which is why we'd like to see this on Lamannia.

~ We have been reading with interest the concerns with named weapons that have increased threat ranges built in and how they interact with Improved Critical. This interaction is part of the design, as these threat ranges provided too much benefit previously. The fact that some of these weapons with lower level requirements were better than end game weapons highlights the problem fairly well.

~ Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars still provide a massive burst of damage; we really don't think these builds will lose their burst feel when these abilities provide an additional 200-300% damage increase depending on gearing.

***

We look forward to seeing player feedback from Lamannia, and here are some additional questions we have:

~ Does the newly smoothed two weapon fighting animation look good, and is the shorter animation providing too much of a DPS increase?

~ Do we want to legitimize Fury Eternal's gain of Adrenaline while using missile weapons, or do we want to fix that bug?

Sev~

In regards to the MRR changes; due to the recent ranger pass tempest rangers are currently very capable of decent PRR (enough to wade in to battle in the same manner as paladins) and they also have evasion, so if you take MRR from armours I suspect you will see a lot of pure rangers in the same position as pure barbarians and the very strong 15/5 paladin ranger build.
In regards to the nerf to divine grace, if I am reading the new formula correctly 3 paladin levels will provide +11 saves, this is already an extremely popular splash due to the defensive stance, players with a 3 pally splash will have +14 to saves (including the saves enhancement). Point being the only thing the divine grace nerf will achieve is that people will splash 1 more paladin level.

In regards to the manyshot 10k stars changes; a year ago this would have made sense, however the way the game is today, monkchers are just ?*nother build rather than the be all and end all of burst DPS. Also if you change they way manyshot works you'll more likely see archers using blitz than fury, so at least leave the choice of destiny. (Also consider having shiradi procs scale from ranged power and give the tree a bit more inherent ranged power.
The change to twf is hardly noticeable as a dps increase.

[jalont]

THAT simply is not true. As long as there are a) items and b) favor and c) sagas bound to completing elite stuff, elite stuff will get run even by those that perhaps should not run elite. They will get fustrated and eventually leave. All DDO has from them is bad mouthing. No more money, no more player base, nothing. Except bad press. That´s why we need a difficulty above elite like Reaper, not a nerf-to-the-grounds of all and everything to make elite the reaper difficulty. Reaper should not provide better rewards than elite. Just perhaps better chances at elite rewards.

I always hear the "if elite is too difficult, try hard or normal". That is the usual statement by those having tripple completionist toons with all the best gear available. This is no statement from the "regular" player base. Elite should provide a challenge for all but the best toons. For the best toons, elite should not pose a challenge. Get over it, you won DDO!

I am still vocal for Reaper. I am against nerfing all and everything into oblivion to save on introducing Reaper. I strongly urge Turbine to re-think the whole whack-a-mole nerfing they do here.

You realize all this unbalancing has taken place in the last year, maybe two, right, and that even with the nerfs, we're not going anywhere near, powerwise, where we were before? If anything, you're making the case that we shouldn't change any of the other classes anymore because the player base is too immature to handle proper balancing. There needs to be some sort of spell pass, but I'm not sure it's even worth it because if the devs don't get it exactly right the first time, everyone will whine on the second pass.

All this stuff about new players will just leave and casuals will just leave is BS because they didn't leave in the 8 years where their power was even less than now. In fact, we had MORE players then.

[Severlin]

After some good feedback and more testing, we've made some adjustments to the two weapon animations while moving.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/466542-LAMANNIA-FEEDBACK-Balance-Pass?p=5705999&viewfull=1#post5705999

Sev~

[Walking_Ride]

Paladins using the KotC cleaves actually does fairly decent AoE DPS, and can do even more against undead. Does it equal two handed weapons? No, but the cleave different is fairly small, leaving Glancing Blows as the main difference.

Paladin versus Tempest: You'll have to take into account that Paladin has better cleaves without wasting feats, has Divine Might, has much better on hit light damage, has much better healing capability because of it's healing amp, and takes less physical damage with armor. You might also want to consider that Paladin healing spells are better, and it gets Lay on Hands and turn undead that can be used for damage.

We'd need more data to put TWF Paladins back that far up the DPS chart.

As for using TWF on the move, we agree:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/466542-LAMANNIA-FEEDBACK-Balance-Pass?p=5705999&viewfull=1#post5705999

Sev~

Yet again i am asking you this. Do you have a personal hate against paladins ? What more proof do you want until you realize that pure rangers are 50-60% ahead in terms of dps compared to a paladin ?

1. Cleaving on a two weapon fighting build is a noob trap and will further lead to dps loss across the board. No, it does no additional damage vs undeads.

2. Paladin has divine might but rangers have know the angels from harper enhancement tree which adds half your int mod to damage and tactics.

3. Self healing in ddo is hardly a problem anymore with epic destinies. Also a ranger gets cure light/moderate/serious wounds from ranger spells.
They also get freedom of movement...

4. Paladin get light damage core but rangers get a lot sneack attack dice from deepwood stalker.

Rangers also get the following...

Fortification bypass : 10(Advanced Sneak Attack) + 10 (Mark of the Hunted) + 25%(Mark of the Hunted) = 45% more than paladins.

Doublestrike : Dervish (25%) offhand + 10% offhand (whirlwind) + 5% mainhand (whirlwind) = 40% - 10 % zeal paladin spell = 30% more than paladins.

Oh yea paladins will loose on exalted smite/divine sacrifice if they choose to take killer from deepwood stalker. While rangers keep exposing strike.

So another +20% doublestrike for a total of 30% + 20 % = 50 % more than pali

+5 Incorporeality (stacking) (whirlwind) + deflect arrows every 2 sec.

Oh, yes especially this too. For rangers off hand weapons are affected by +1 critical threat range and +1 critical multiplier which translates to ~ 26 % dps .




How can you ignore all of this ? I am asking you this again. Why don't you give us back our holy sword affecting off hand weapons ? Why ? How much more proof do you need ?

And please stop this *But paladins gain more mrr/prr and lay on hands (which by the way is NOT unlimited) BS*

Rangers can get almost the exact same amount of prr/mrr through tempest core abilities including the capstone (dervish).


My twf paladin dps now on lammania, even single target dps is so bad due to 30% dps loss, due to the holy sword nerf, it is just disgraceful now.

[Spoonwelder]

After some good feedback and more testing, we've made some adjustments to the two weapon animations while moving.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/466542-LAMANNIA-FEEDBACK-Balance-Pass?p=5705999&viewfull=1#post5705999

Sev~
Thank you - 50 times I thank you......but we are only half way there.....attack speed whilst moving has always been a major issue for TWF - I had just given up on any improvement there and had gotten to calling it Scissorhand mode. The only place it caused quest completion problem for me was in Lines of Supply - try chasing the Gnoll supply carriesr with TWF on and you fail without other CC sources. Soloable (EN/EH) on THF with relative ease but not TWF.

So the second half - hitboxes. You have patently ignored the comments on hitboxes (even in the post you link) and I know that it is in part due to the lovingly crafted animations (from your post a long while back) but I would like a carte blanche statement of whether this can be fixed as well as if it will be fixed in the near term. I want my main to be a TWFer but until that is fixed I can't, I just can't, the pain is too great. So I need to know if I should just shelve that plan forever OR if there is light approaching the tunnel?

Please and Thank You.

[unbongwah]

I'm assuming that they will make keen edge +2 when they get to kensei as they were the original crit threat enhancement.
IIRC, the +1 crit range bonus from the pre-U19 Kensei (http://ddowiki.com/page/Kensei_enhancements_%28history%29) Weapon Mastery III was applied after Improved Crit, so it wasn't doubled by the feat. [See old threat range page (http://ddowiki.com/index.php?title=Threat_range&oldid=170906) for confirmation.] That changed with U19; and it was always unclear if that was a bug or WAI. It appears Turbine has decided to nerf competence bonuses to crit range, among other things. Which might not have been so bad, had they done that right after U19 came out and before people got used to the stacking; but they've added a lot of crit range bonuses since then...

[firebones]

The best part of this update is when I nerf my credit card.

[PermaBanned]

To the devs: Again, where is the fighter/sorc/wiz/healer pass that will make these worth playing? Please don't try to balance things before you fix those. You'll just end up having to do this "balance" thing again.I think you have that totally backwards. This over buffing started with the Armor Up & Pally pass followed by the Bard. Everything that came after was compared to Pally/Swash levels of power, and the Devs were told repeatedly that if what followed was not as powerful as those then it was waste of time and effort. Sadly, they listened and here we are. If nerfs must happen to restore a better PvE balance, then better to do it sooner than later.

When the ship is off course, you correct the course as soon as you can - you don't wait untill you're closer to the destination and even further off course before making corrections. Nerf/fix/correct/whatever the work that's been done already, then going forward the class passes can be done with these power levels as the standard instead of the overly inflated lower levels as the standard.

[Grailhawk]

I think you have that totally backwards. This over buffing started with the Armor Up & Pally pass followed by the Bard. Everything that came after was compared to Pally/Swash levels of power, and the Devs were told repeatedly that if what followed was not as powerful as those then it was waste of time and effort. Sadly, they listened and here we are. If nerfs must happen to restore a better PvE balance, then better to do it sooner than later.

When the ship is off course, you correct the course as soon as you can - you don't wait untill you're closer to the destination and even further off course before making corrections. Nerf/fix/correct/whatever the work that's been done already, then going forward the class passes can be done with these power levels as the standard instead of the overly inflated lower levels as the standard.

Bard and Swashbucker came before Paladin and armor up. Every thing else you said is spot on.

[nomadicc]

~ The changes to Improved Critical do mess up the balance for Assassins between kukri and daggers, and for Swashbucklers who can take enhancements to normalize weapon types. We are going to implement additional changes so that characters who have the Improved Critical feat will gain extra threat range for under performing weapons to maintain the weapon balance you have live using these builds.

This is pretty encouraging, and I think it might need re-iterating. With all the histrionics, bloviating and popcorn-throwing in the general forum, I think this point might have gotten missed by many.

I understand and support the need to update the IC feat, but its pretty clear that quarterstaves, and by extension, acrobat rogues, are taking a big boot to the nadds here. Did you plan to address that setback in the rogue acrobat enhancements, like you plan for the assassin daggers and swashy weapons?

[McFlay]

Two weapon paladins are still doing better DPS than Paladins using two handed weapons or single weapon fighting by a good margin. But by all means, we'd love to see some test numbers from Lamannia! We added some bigger DPS kobolds in the test dojo to help players test.

Sev~

How about you stop it with the pointless test data from stationary test dummies and actually play the game? TWF gets the smallest hit boxes, by far the worst aoe abilities(no glances and aoe skills are a total joke), still bugs so sometimes when you hit mobs while moving even with 100% offhand you only hit once, and any time you use a tactical skill(trip, stun) you only get 1 hit. Literally the only time twf is superior is when you are fighting a single stationary mob, yet this seems to be the only metric the devs want to base their comparisons off.

I think you said somewhere in this thread something to the effect of twf being 40% ahead of thf. Maybe it is...but like I just said, only when you are fighting a single stationary mob. Anytime there are multiple targets or moving targets, the other styles pull further and further ahead as they get better cleave animations, larger attack areas, glances, and more powerful hits, and less punished for swinging while moving animations. If you guys want to balance styles its not going to work when you want to give swf/thf 90% of the single target dps potential of twf and twf less than half of the aoe potential.

And another rant while I'm at it...the holy sword nerf to offhand is ridiculous. I just don't see it when every other class makes use of their crit skills with offhands...but paladins aren't allowed to?

And the last thing I'd care to rant about...+20 tactical dcs for fighters? On a d20 system? I'm glad it seems like you want to work on giving fighters an area to shine, but I'm not really seeing good things coming from this. I still take stunning blow and use trip on my non-fighter melees...I'm just a little worried giving fighters access to this much dc is going to result in giving mobs higher saves and making tactics on other melees completely worthless. I don't want to see tactics end up like the old ac system where you end up with a small amount of very specific builds who are going to have successful rolls 95% of the time but the majority of builds just end up ignoring tactics because at high levels you end up so far off the bottom of the scale + or -5 dc ends up making no difference at all as you will only have success when your opponent rolls a 1 either way.

[elvesunited]

Fighters really aren't helped much by this balance pass.

Tactical attacks like Trip and stun are fun but they end up being useful only against mooks. And 4 feats for +20 DC is ridiculously expensive even for a fighter. The PRR and MRR fall into the same pit. Too expensive unless you plan to start giving fighters even more feats. The problem with fighters is simply that in a game were the players have moved away from dedicated healers, fighters just can't stay competitive in quests which involve wave after wave of enemies.

Glad to hear that the devs are looking to make sure Bards using swashbuckling to boost the ranges of low crit weapons and assassins won't be hurt by the critical update. Could you also do the same for Druid's in Wolf form?

[Adams]

Greetings.

We've seen a lot of community feedback, both public and private, about our ongoing plans for balance. These are some changes we are considering to increase game balance.

As with any post that outlines power reductions (aka nerfs) I am sure there will be a lot of players looking for explanations and our thoughts and results on balance that led to these changes. I will be following up this post with more details that talk about why some of these changes are being implemented.

***

Holy Sword (Paladin)
This is now a spell that affects the paladin and buffs whatever melee weapon is being wielded in the main hand.
It no longer persists on your weapon but instead buffs the melee weapon you are holding in your main hand. (Yes, this buffs your two handed weapons.)
It no longer affects missile weapons.
It no longer can be used to buff off hand weapons or shields.
If you change weapons the spell will drop off the unequipped weapon and instead be applied to the newly equipped weapon.

Blood Strength (Barbarian Ravager)
The portion of this enhancement that heals the user when they kill an opponent now has a 1 second internal cooldown.

Critical Rage (Barbarian Ravager)
The bonus to critical threat range is now a competence bonus.

Two weapon fighting animations have been fixed so there is no longer a weird jump on the fourth animation. This has made the fourth attack slightly quicker.

Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Improved Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Greater Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.

Doubleshot values over 100% now have a chance of producing a third attack. The chance is equal to the amount the value exceeds 100. A doubleshot value of 130, for example, would always produce one extra shot and have a 30% chance to produce a third shot.

(Doublestrike will still cap at 100 for technical reasons.)

Repeating Crossbows and Doubleshot
Fixed a bug where Doubleshot was not being reduced for repeating crossbows. (Doubleshot chance is divided by 3 for repeating crossbows.)

Manyshot
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 20 seconds you add your (base attack bonus * 4) to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. This ability puts Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 2 minutes.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

Ten Thousand Stars
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 30 seconds you add your Wisdom ability score to your Ranged Power and you add your monk level * 5 to your Doubleshot. This ability puts Manyshot on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 1 minute.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

Mechanical Reloader (Rogue Mechanic)
The alacrity for non-repeating crossbows is now 30%. (Was 40%)

Pulverizer (Legendary Dreadnought)
The bonus to critical threat range for bludgeoning weapons is now an Insight bonus.

Improved Critical
These feats now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

Keen
This loot effect now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

Armor Changes
The amount of Physical Resist Rating that armor provides has been changed.
* Heavy armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 2) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Medium armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1.5) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Light Armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
Fixed a bug where players were getting Physical Resist Rating for armor with which they were not proficient.

(Note: The Physical Resist Rating and Magical Resist Rating offered by shields remain unchanged.)

As a result of dialing back armor, some fighter only feats that will boost their effectiveness with armor and add to tactical DCs will also be included.

Tactical Training
Requires Fighter Level 4
You gain +2 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 8
You gain +4 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Mastery
Requires Fighter Level 12
You gain +6 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Supremacy
Requires Fighter Level 16
You gain +8 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Notes: All tactical feats stack for a total of +20. The lower level feats are not prerequisites for the higher level feats so a higher level fighter could save a feat if he/she wanted to skip Tactical Training and forego the +2 but still have access to Tatical Supremacy.

Heavy Armor Training
Requires Fighter Level 2
You gain +3 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 6
You gain +6 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Master
Requires Fighter Level 10
You gain +9 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Champion
Requires Fighter Level 14
You gain +12 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Notes: All Heavy Armor feats stack for a total of +30. The lower level feats are not prerequisites for the higher level feats so a higher level fighter could save a feat if he/she wanted to skip Heavy Armor Training and forego the +3 and still have access to Heavy Armor Champion.


Divine Grace (Paladin)
Divine Grace now provides a maximum bonus equal to 2 + (Paladin level x 3).

Eldritch Blast and other enhancements (Warlock)
The spellpower scaling for Eldritch Blast and several enhancements has been reduced.

Spellpower scaling of Warlock Abilities


Ability
Old
New


Eldritch Blast
150%
130%


Eldritch Blast Cone
130%
130%


Eldritch Blast Chain
110%
95%


Eldritch Blast Aura
150%
130%


Stricken (Souleater)
150%
125%


Consume (Souleater)
150%
125%


Eldritch Burst (Enlightened Spirit)
120%
100%


Spirit Blast (Enlightened Spirit)
120%
100%



I will be following up this post with some details on our thoughts on balance and design.

Sev~
Why do this? Just because the warlock class does really well in heroic levels does not mean they dominate in the epic levels.
Did you ever consider that the people dominating with warlock class are 10+ past lives are the ones that make it look like the warlock is OP when it is not? What you did just now is took my 50.00 plus dollars I invested into this Fey warlock and made it useless. I am not VIP but I came out of a lot of money to play this toon and not I am not even effective in epic levels thanks to you. Do you not even consider the feelings of us pure toon players? Now I am going to have to multi class this toon to even be able to do damage as a Fey Warlock. I am playing a Fey and compared to the other warlocks, Fey was already lower than the others. Now you made fey a gimp class. Look at the numbers for yourselves and you tell my Fey got a fair shake out of this. Fey was low enough already and should not have been touched. Note: all things considered nothing should be able to out DPS Warlocks, Mages or Sorcerers thus the reason they are called nukes.

[BoondocksMike]

And the last thing I'd care to rant about...+20 tactical dcs for fighters? On a d20 system? I'm glad it seems like you want to work on giving fighters an area to shine, but I'm not really seeing good things coming from this. I still take stunning blow and use trip on my non-fighter melees...I'm just a little worried giving fighters access to this much dc is going to result in giving mobs higher saves and making tactics on other melees completely worthless. I don't want to see tactics end up like the old ac system where you end up with a small amount of very specific builds who are going to have successful rolls 95% of the time but the majority of builds just end up ignoring tactics because at high levels you end up so far off the bottom of the scale + or -5 dc ends up making no difference at all as you will only have success when your opponent rolls a 1 either way.

no one is going to take all four of those feats. at present, it would cost too much dps to pick up anything but the final tier of either the +dc or +prr/mrr. +20 dc doesnt even make stun that great currently because assuming that brought a current stun build up to 95% success rate, its still too much dps cost for one ability usable only on some trash ever 15 seconds, most of the effect of which is wasted because trash doesnt typically have that much hp.


Fighters really aren't helped much by this balance pass.

Tactical attacks like Trip and stun are fun but they end up being useful only against mooks. And 4 feats for +20 DC is ridiculously expensive even for a fighter. The PRR and MRR fall into the same pit. Too expensive unless you plan to start giving fighters even more feats. The problem with fighters is simply that in a game were the players have moved away from dedicated healers, fighters just can't stay competitive in quests which involve wave after wave of enemies.

rolling with the "wave after wave" comment, i just have to say that my fighter can. its be no means easy or new/casual player friendly to achieve, but its doable. the only problem is that i have to work really hard at staying alive, and my dps remains total ****, meanwhile some classes are doing thousands more dps than me and getting healing at the same time or with instant burst heals (loh).

[zeonardo]

Yet again i am asking you this. Do you have a personal hate against paladins ? What more proof do you want until you realize that pure rangers are 50-60% ahead in terms of dps compared to a paladin ?

1. Cleaving on a two weapon fighting build is a noob trap and will further lead to dps loss across the board. No, it does no additional damage vs undeads.

2. Paladin has divine might but rangers have know the angels from harper enhancement tree which adds half your int mod to damage and tactics.

3. Self healing in ddo is hardly a problem anymore with epic destinies. Also a ranger gets cure light/moderate/serious wounds from ranger spells.
They also get freedom of movement...

4. Paladin get light damage core but rangers get a lot sneack attack dice from deepwood stalker.

Rangers also get the following...

Fortification bypass : 10(Advanced Sneak Attack) + 10 (Mark of the Hunted) + 25%(Mark of the Hunted) = 45% more than paladins.

Doublestrike : Dervish (25%) offhand + 10% offhand (whirlwind) + 5% mainhand (whirlwind) = 40% - 10 % zeal paladin spell = 30% more than paladins.

Oh yea paladins will loose on exalted smite/divine sacrifice if they choose to take killer from deepwood stalker. While rangers keep exposing strike.

So another +20% doublestrike for a total of 30% + 20 % = 50 % more than pali

+5 Incorporeality (stacking) (whirlwind) + deflect arrows every 2 sec.

Oh, yes especially this too. For rangers off hand weapons are affected by +1 critical threat range and +1 critical multiplier which translates to ~ 26 % dps .




How can you ignore all of this ? I am asking you this again. Why don't you give us back our holy sword affecting off hand weapons ? Why ? How much more proof do you need ?

And please stop this *But paladins gain more mrr/prr and lay on hands (which by the way is NOT unlimited) BS*

Rangers can get almost the exact same amount of prr/mrr through tempest core abilities including the capstone (dervish).


My twf paladin dps now on lammania, even single target dps is so bad due to 30% dps loss, due to the holy sword nerf, it is just disgraceful now.

They are nerfing paladins because exploiters builds take advantage of a few levels of it. Instead of fixing those, they just nerf paladin altogether.
If they seek balance, they should quit the joke on 150/120/100% on warlocks. They still can erase the universe with a cleave.

Not only that. You can more often than not see a warlock just sitting there cleaving while a melee boss bashes away for no damage at all.
So, while my S&B paladin takes a lot of damage, some of which is mitigated by hardly earned prr/mrr (yeah, armor alone won't give you enough mitigation to stay toe to toe with EE footsoldiers. you need ap and sacrifice gear slots) and slowly mows down enemies one by one, the mighty warlock sits there unhindered and undamaged cleaving-happy with 150/120/100% or the heck% away.

I just despise the current implementation of warlocks. I, as a premium, purchased it to try (along with all other classes, races and packs), but refuse to play it. And even avoid to group with them because even a 1st life warlocks takes away all the fun and the merit of my hard-earned gear through 32 lives.

/rantoff

[Nestroy]

You realize all this unbalancing has taken place in the last year, maybe two, right, and that even with the nerfs, we're not going anywhere near, powerwise, where we were before? If anything, you're making the case that we shouldn't change any of the other classes anymore because the player base is too immature to handle proper balancing. There needs to be some sort of spell pass, but I'm not sure it's even worth it because if the devs don't get it exactly right the first time, everyone will whine on the second pass.

All this stuff about new players will just leave and casuals will just leave is BS because they didn't leave in the 8 years where their power was even less than now. In fact, we had MORE players then.

The unbalancing started back in U14 MotU with the introduction of EDs. Instead of letting toons gain power thru epic levels. what we faced the last four years, with each and every enhancement pass, was even more power creep. Making barb self healing *shakes head*. Nothing against Barbs. This were all strategic decisions by the devs. Now takign them back, after Pandoras Box is already open, what do they / you expect? That there is much rejoicing?

And take a close look at all the new quests since Shadowfell expansion. Epic Elite they are geared for the best of the best. And the best of the best are still complaining its too easy. What will change with the nerf? The best of the best will adapt and build their next FOTM build, going back on top and complaining DDO is too easy. And all other players will further fall behind in the power curve. And be frustrated that their builds (which woul dbe considered "orchid" by the power gamers) do not perform.

Metagaming already is the single most important factor to build a successful build, at least for EE. The new nerf/bug fix pass will not help with that.

I would never ever call any player "immature", not even those posting on the other forum. There simply is no propper balancing in DDO, at least not w/o scrapping all the enhancement passes and the EDs and going back to the drawboard. And that will not happen, let´s get over this. So there always will be players cookiecutting their builds and others trying to survive with what suits them best.

By the way, since you mentioned it, 8 years ago we were at what, cap 14? it´s much easier to balance for a small level range. And guess what, before ddo got much easier, opened up and went f2p, the game was neraly dead. It was going forward or closing. Want back into those times? Me not!




Why do this? Just because the warlock class does really well in heroic levels does not mean they dominate in the epic levels.
Did you ever consider that the people dominating with warlock class are 10+ past lives are the ones that make it look like the warlock is OP when it is not? What you did just now is took my 50.00 plus dollars I invested into this Fey warlock and made it useless. I am not VIP but I came out of a lot of money to play this toon and not I am not even effective in epic levels thanks to you. Do you not even consider the feelings of us pure toon players? Now I am going to have to multi class this toon to even be able to do damage as a Fey Warlock. I am playing a Fey and compared to the other warlocks, Fey was already lower than the others. Now you made fey a gimp class. Look at the numbers for yourselves and you tell my Fey got a fair shake out of this. Fey was low enough already and should not have been touched. Note: all things considered nothing should be able to out DPS Warlocks, Mages or Sorcerers thus the reason they are called nukes.

Warlock is still massvely OP, but not because of DPS. The only thing that does not need "fixing" in Warlock is DPS. What needs fixing is the tremendous advantage a WL (and WL splash!!!) gains thru ES tier 5 "Shining Through". That is the worst case of OP I have seen in DDO for years, and that includes the Pally before the 1st Holy Sword nerf. On a second thought, if WL is still perceived too OP after that fix, make blasts (not base blast, but all else, like chain blast...) cost SP. Problem solved. WL needs an up on DPS in epic levels, by the way. Any chance we get Draconic and Magister scale WL levels too?



They are nerfing paladins because exploiters builds take advantage of a few levels of it. Instead of fixing those, they just nerf paladin altogether.
If they seek balance, they should quit the joke on 150/120/100% on warlocks. They still can erase the universe with a cleave.

Not only that. You can more often than not see a warlock just sitting there cleaving while a melee boss bashes away for no damage at all.
So, while my S&B paladin takes a lot of damage, some of which is mitigated by hardly earned prr/mrr (yeah, armor alone won't give you enough mitigation to stay toe to toe with EE footsoldiers. you need ap and sacrifice gear slots) and slowly mows down enemies one by one, the mighty warlock sits there unhindered and undamaged cleaving-happy with 150/120/100% or the heck% away.

I just despise the current implementation of warlocks. I, as a premium, purchased it to try (along with all other classes, races and packs), but refuse to play it. And even avoid to group with them because even a 1st life warlocks takes away all the fun and the merit of my hard-earned gear through 32 lives.

/rantoff

I can see you have not been playing WL. Otherwise you would know that one single enhancement gives the WL that perceived OPedness you are ranting about. Any WL splash of at least 5 levels can take that enhancement at lv. 12 total. and ever there after is OP to the worst! The enhancement is named "Shining Through" and gives Con x 12 temporary hit points to the toon. You gain 25% healing amp on top of that for 20 seconds and the cooldown is just 30 seconds.

Take away exactly that one single enhancement, or even better, make it only give Con x 6 and make the cooldown at least one minute (better 2), and you will see how fast all the WL and WL splashes will vanish from EE or any content above lv. 12.

Pure WL needs some help until lv. 4. With lv. 4 WL gains enough power to do serious damage in heroic content. The WL reaches the damage maximum at lv. 20, and if EDs are available becomes nearly godlike powerful at that level. The Warlock does not gain more inherent blast DPS ever there after, with the exception of taking epic feats that give some few points of damage more. The WL power curve flattens significantly where most other builds quite finely get significantly more power - during epic levels. At lv. 28 the Warlock is barely on par with most medicore builds and clearly sub par compared to Swash, Pally, Barb and most fotm and exploiter builds.

So, WL is OP from lv. 4 onwards, gets a significant power boost at lv. 12 (Shining Through) and another upon reaching EDs on lv. 20. The WL maxes out at lv. 20, his power curve flattens out thereafter and upon reaching lv. 28 and end game, the WL is comparable to most other builds and even lags behind the EE power builds. Any build can take on 5 or 6 level of WL and profit from Shining Through.

What would be needed to do? In heroics, the DPS from a WL needs some tone down. A possible solution would be to make Blasts cost SP. That would keep WLs off too much DPS in heroic content. The Shining Through enhancement needs a complete nerf on both output and cooldown. Leave the current DPS intact, do the other nerfs. You will see how much the WL looses where it counts most: Heroic levels and early epics.

And for those telling me I do not play WL - I have played WL now several times, from 1 to 28. Yes, I know exactly what WL is capable and what not. WL is OP. But it´s not DPS.

[phalaeo2]

They are nerfing paladins because exploiters builds take advantage of a few levels of it. Instead of fixing those, they just nerf paladin altogether.

/rantoff

Please clarify what is exploiting about taking 2 levels Pally? Are people who take 1-2 levels Rogue exploiting? What about 2 levels Monk?

I think you and I have a different definition of "exploit".

[jrhuff]

So, you are telling us that this will BALANCE the game for the players, but it looks like the fighters will be the new class to make. After the changes people will now want to just make fighters instead of other classes. I played THF barbarian for about a year, that is about how long it takes me to TR. I ETR'ed into a TWF barbarian, and really enjoyed it. I didn't feel overpowered compared to when I played THF, I just had fun playing the game. And I was planning on TR'ing into a TWF again, so now I am not sure what I am planning on doing now. I feel like I am going to lose a lot of survivability with the changes to PRR and MRR. Fortunately, I still have my black scale robe, I guess I need to take a couple of levels of rogue and about 18 of fighter. I hate the idea of multi-classing, and I haven't even done it for the 6 years I have been playing.

[dunklezhan]

Warlock is still massvely OP, but not because of DPS. The only thing that does not need "fixing" in Warlock is DPS. What needs fixing is the tremendous advantage a WL (and WL splash!!!) gains thru ES tier 5 "Shining Through". That is the worst case of OP I have seen in DDO for years, and that includes the Pally before the 1st Holy Sword nerf. On a second thought, if WL is still perceived too OP after that fix, make blasts (not base blast, but all else, like chain blast...) cost SP. Problem solved. WL needs an up on DPS in epic levels, by the way. Any chance we get Draconic and Magister scale WL levels too?


meh, I dont' have much time for warlocks, but even I know eldritch blasts should NOT cost SP. The whole point of a warlock's "eldritch" abilities in pen and paper is that they are always on, no cost to the warlock. That is a vital part of the "feel" of the class. That's probably why I don't like them - infinite ammo and infinite swings, doing way more damage than weapons with none of the downsides but that's what the warlock is (In DDO they did break this mould somewhat, because they gave them nominal spell/day like other casters - but that's as far as the compromise should go on that score). Seems to me that controlling (whether nerfing or buffing) their DPS should probably be a matter of cooldown length, damage output per blast, and looking at things like AP investment bang for the buck. For this pass, they're looking at damage output per blast and messing with spellpower.

I'm not making a comment on whether they've got it right - I don't have a warlock so I have no way of knowing (though all - I mean all - my warlock-playing friends have been urging me to buy warlock so I can "enjoy it in heroic before it gets nerfed back to the stone age" - because they think its massively overpowered and that a nerf was inevitable, and they know I basically avoid epic play like the plague). I'm just saying that inifinite eldritch blasts is more or less their class signature from the mothergame and you can't mess with that without making them seem even more like a force-specialised sorcerer. It'd be like making unarmed not the best dps for monks: all kinds of wrong, thematically speaking. A monk only sullies their hands with weapons for special effects or maybe a bit of reach or range in pnp.

[Nestroy]

So, you are telling us that this will BALANCE the game for the players, but it looks like the fighters will be the new class to make. After the changes people will now want to just make fighters instead of other classes. I played THF barbarian for about a year, that is about how long it takes me to TR. I ETR'ed into a TWF barbarian, and really enjoyed it. I didn't feel overpowered compared to when I played THF, I just had fun playing the game. And I was planning on TR'ing into a TWF again, so now I am not sure what I am planning on doing now. I feel like I am going to lose a lot of survivability with the changes to PRR and MRR. Fortunately, I still have my black scale robe, I guess I need to take a couple of levels of rogue and about 18 of fighter. I hate the idea of multi-classing, and I haven't even done it for the 6 years I have been playing.

Actually, the TWF does not exactly get a nerf. What TWF gets, is a correction and hence rebalancing. They fixed a bug eating on the performance of TWF and now rebalance TWF to get back in line with the rest of fighting styles. You loose 6 points of melee power and gain a better damage output. I would not name this nerf, actually.

I think, TWF actually is not the big fun killer with that proposed changes. Pally gets a much bigger hit, albeit fairly said this is technically a bug fix too. Holy Sword, actually, was always supposed to be melee only. And the crit hit nerfs all and everybody. The new feats are fighter only, so we will see the return of the fighter, on cheap. Why on cheap? That way the devs save on reworking the fighter enhancement tree, that, frankly, stinks big time.

And the only class that gets the full nerf bat is the WL. Here we see a DPS reduction of about 10-20% across the board. What for? the WL is barely endgame EE amyways and cannot be easily trimmed endgame EE as we can trim so many other classes. So pure WL gets the shaft. The big splashing machine, WL 5 ES tier 5 Shining Through does not get the well deserved nerf. Pure class dead, long live the splash! Well done, Turbine! */sarcasm=off*

[Wh070aa]

Greetings.
Holy Sword (Paladin)
This is now a spell that affects the paladin and buffs whatever melee weapon is being wielded in the main hand.
It no longer persists on your weapon but instead buffs the melee weapon you are holding in your main hand. (Yes, this buffs your two handed weapons.)
It no longer affects missile weapons.
It no longer can be used to buff off hand weapons or shields.
If you change weapons the spell will drop off the unequipped weapon and instead be applied to the newly equipped weapon.


Can you please change silver flame paladins not to get longbow proficiency then? Or better yet remove them from game completely.

Seriously why you can't make classes work with their favored weapons. All I want is ranged elf paladin.

[Nestroy]

meh, I dont' have much time for warlocks, but even I know eldritch blasts should NOT cost SP. The whole point of a warlock's "eldritch" abilities in pen and paper is that they are always on, no cost to the warlock. That is a vital part of the "feel" of the class. That's probably why I don't like them - infinite ammo and infinite swings, doing way more damage than weapons with none of the downsides but that's what the warlock is (In DDO they did break this mould somewhat, because they gave them nominal spell/day like other casters - but that's as far as the compromise should go on that score). Seems to me that controlling (whether nerfing or buffing) their DPS should probably be a matter of cooldown length, damage output per blast, and looking at things like AP investment bang for the buck. For this pass, they're looking at damage output per blast and messing with spellpower.

I'm not making a comment on whether they've got it right - I don't have a warlock so I have no way of knowing (though all - I mean all - my warlock-playing friends have been urging me to buy warlock so I can "enjoy it in heroic before it gets nerfed back to the stone age" - because they think its massively overpowered and that a nerf was inevitable, and they know I basically avoid epic play like the plague). I'm just saying that inifinite eldritch blasts is more or less their class signature from the mothergame and you can't mess with that without making them seem even more like a force-specialised sorcerer. It'd be like making unarmed not the best dps for monks: all kinds of wrong, thematically speaking. A monk only sullies their hands with weapons for special effects or maybe a bit of reach or range in pnp.

Ever asked yourself why the WL is perceived OP even by WL players? Ask your friends.

Ask them two questions. 1st - how good is raw damage output OP, compared to Cetus builds, Shirardi Sorc or TWF Trees? 2nd - is the free handed survivability boon (namely Shining Through) OP? Ask them if they actively use Shining Through? I bet the answer will be "Yes".

Warlock gets handed superior survivability on the silver plater. You may reach the same output for every other build simply by splashing 5 levels of Warlock. Now, the Warlock not only gets superior survivability, the Warlock also gets decent damage, at least until lv. 22 or lv. 23 in epics. Only then the Warlock starts to loose ground on other DPS builds.

Why nerf DPS then? The true culprit is Enlighted Spirit tier 5 enhancement Shining Through. Without that enhancement the Warlock still has some good DPS, but gets into the same glass cannon category as is Wiz or Sorc. And has the same end game problems.

Since some critiques said WL is massively OP in late heroics, I came up with the SP idea. True, the core Warlock class from pnp does not have SP costs for blasts. I am fine if the blasts stay free. But this does not go for Chain Blasts, Auras and the like that are not supported by the core pnp class in any way. And them costing SP would go a great lengths to make the WL to be perceived less OP as it is now. DPS on the WL is not the problem. It´s the fact that this DPS does not come at any costs to the WL.

[gwonbush]

Can you please change silver flame paladins not to get longbow proficiency then? Or better yet remove them from game completely.

Seriously why you can't make classes work with their favored weapons. All I want is ranged elf paladin.

Then good news, they changed their mind. There's a lot of dev posts in this thread after the initial few, so I suggest reading them all via the dev tracker.

[slarden]

you guys at Turbine are going to implement whatever changes you want regardless of the rants that are here in these forums.

Best summary in the whole thread and very true.

There is more to the story than just "balance". Some exec at Turbine micromanaged and said "do this" and/or they no longer wish to do reaper mode and realize they can't make ee a challenge without these changes and/or they realize the biggest source of lag in the game is their recent changes and/or their player #s are dwindling and this is a total punt - hoping that reversing directions will bring back more players, but even if it doesn't it is a talking point they can give their leaders to show they are doing something.

My 'data' shows it's more probable than not that they will lose 10%+ of their player base from these changs alone. Not because they are reducing player power, but rather from the player point of view it seems like total chaos over at Turbine. They clearly value developer time (as do we all), but they don't value player time at all. Furthermore the "balance" part of this change is all an illusion - these changes won't bring balance - and ironically all the exploit builds go untouched - as has been the case for years.

They make things so time-consuming and grindy and then have no regard at all for how much player progress is lost when they do something like this. They haven't touched the subject of thuderforged crafting exchange and free lesser hearts of some kind - and they probably won't. They will blame "exploiters" for not touching thunderforged crafting even though those folks are either long gone or have all the mats to make what they need. It's the honest players that need to recraft their weapons. I don't give them any kind of free pass for blaming things on "exploiters" because the bugs were known and explained to them before thunderforged crafting went live - and they ignored it.

My confidence in Turbine has dropped significantly, not because of these changes, but because they are unable to set a clear vision for the game and stick with it. They are highly reactive and although that can be a positive trait, in this case I think it's the knee-jerk kind - or they simply aren't telling us the real reasons why they are doing this.

[EllisDee37]

Will the change to keen be nerfing named items that have Keen as a property? As in, will...

...Carnifex change from 17-20x3 to 18-20x3?
...Tiefling Assassin's Blade change from 15-20x2 to 16-20x2?
...Razorend change from 15-20x2 to 16-20x2?
...Oathblade change from 15-20x2 to 16-20x2?
etc...

[Walking_Ride]

Then good news, they changed their mind. There's a lot of dev posts in this thread after the initial few, so I suggest reading them all via the dev tracker.

While they are at it, they should also implement the same changes for holy sword regarding off hand weapons.

Just because i feel like playing a twf paladin, doesn't mean it should be behind other classes by 30-60% of its dps. Just saying.


Don't try to trick me with prr/mrr or better self healing. Anyone not dumb can self heal through cure spells and epic destiny.

Almost every class also has access to prr/mrr enhancements.

[Walking_Ride]

Actually, the TWF does not exactly get a nerf. What TWF gets, is a correction and hence rebalancing. They fixed a bug eating on the performance of TWF and now rebalance TWF to get back in line with the rest of fighting styles. You loose 6 points of melee power and gain a better damage output. I would not name this nerf, actually.

I think, TWF actually is not the big fun killer with that proposed changes. Pally gets a much bigger hit, albeit fairly said this is technically a bug fix too. Holy Sword, actually, was always supposed to be melee only. And the crit hit nerfs all and everybody. The new feats are fighter only, so we will see the return of the fighter, on cheap. Why on cheap? That way the devs save on reworking the fighter enhancement tree, that, frankly, stinks big time.

And the only class that gets the full nerf bat is the WL. Here we see a DPS reduction of about 10-20% across the board. What for? the WL is barely endgame EE amyways and cannot be easily trimmed endgame EE as we can trim so many other classes. So pure WL gets the shaft. The big splashing machine, WL 5 ES tier 5 Shining Through does not get the well deserved nerf. Pure class dead, long live the splash! Well done, Turbine! */sarcasm=off*

Dude, what the heck ? If holy sword is supposed to work with melee weapons, then why the hell isn't it affecting off hand weapons ?

THEY ARE MELEE WEAPONS TOO !

Why the hell can a lvl 12 ranger get the better version of crit multiplier and threat range across the board while two weapon fighting ?

Why the hell can a assassin get the better version of crit multiplier and threat range across the board while two weapon fightng at lvl 5 and 18 ?

Barbarians even get the frenzied berserker capstone, storms eye.


Seriously, this is messed up man. Who the hell came up with the idea of twf paladins being ahead in terms of dps by 40 % ? This is a HUGE lie.

Before you shafted the **** out of holy sword the above classes including paladins were perfectly balanced (especially rangers).


Now you do this ? This is the last nerf i am going to tolerate if it goes live.

Me and some of my friends are going to quit paying/playing this game for sure after that.

[slarden]

Will the change to keen be nerfing named items that have Keen as a property? As in, will...

...Carnifex change from 17-20x3 to 18-20x3?
...Tiefling Assassin's Blade change from 15-20x2 to 16-20x2?
...Razorend change from 15-20x2 to 16-20x2?
...Oathblade change from 15-20x2 to 16-20x2?
etc...

Carniflex gives 1 bonus to the axe (19-20) and keen gives one more for 18-20.

Other weapons work the same way. For keen weapons remove half the range from the weapon (as it shows today) and then add back to the range to the bonus # in sev's original post based on weapon type.

[EllisDee37]

Carniflex gives 1 bonus to the axe (19-20) and keen gives one more for 18-20.

Other weapons work the same way. For keen weapons remove half the range from the weapon (as it shows today) and then add back to the range to the bonus # in sev's original post based on weapon type.You're saying that yes, named items will be nerfed.

I'm asking why should named items be nerfed? Carnifex has been an iconic named item in DDO for years and years. It shouldn't be nerfed. None of them should.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Undecided on what I really think about this.....


But I've always thought that the way to achieve class balance is through dungeon design.

Design dungeons with a variety of challenges that give various builds times to shine and times to call for their friends to help them out.


One quick example.
If Evasion is perceived as strong.... have monsters use spells that have saves other than ref saves.

and....(I guess this is actually a second example... but it piggybacks off the first one)

Revisit those Illusions....
That trap that used Will save was good IMO, but it should have done no damage to anyone who made their Wil save... regardless whether they had Evasion or not.

Could do the same with illusionary fireballs.

Just don't overdo it...
Variety... sometimes your super powers work, sometimes they don't.
(but they should work most of the time, otherwise people get too frustrated and mad that the character they built is useless too often)

[ccd1977]

With all these changes, what is the impact of our characters VS mobs now? Are the enemies impacted too so they are more powerful by us not having certain DPS? I am still amazed how a Shadar-Kai assassin whip is probably 4 times more DPS than our capability to build one.

[Walking_Ride]

With all these changes, what is the impact of our characters VS mobs now? Are the enemies impacted too so they are more powerful by us not having certain DPS? I am still amazed how a Shadar-Kai assassin whip is probably 4 times more DPS than our capability to build one.

I suspect that the difficulty level will remain the same. More one shoting players situations and more time taken to cut up 300k hp mobs.

[Jetrule]

I too have a question about monsters. Are they currently made so that much of their power and defence comes from gear and feats like a player characters? Are Skeleton knights for example currently benefiting from prr and mrr from heavy armor and shield? Or are they basically cosmetic items with the monsters combat values being set by another means? Do the monsters have feats like shield mastery or single weapon fighting, to increase their offence? Is there any npc opponent in game who has manyshot or 10k stars? Does a Boss like Carver or Karlat have 2wf that will be impacted?

[elvesunited]

Evasion doesn't bug me. You're trading the protections of armor for a reflex save driven immunity. ( always fails on 1 until late epics )
For spell caster types you're also trading 2 out of your 20 levels to a decidely non-spellcaster class ( making capstone impossible ) and often a feat. ( Unless you are pure swashbuckler. ) That's the way it should be. A trade off. The trouble is that for the longest time and now it seems in the future, medium and heavy armor's benefit was/will be lackluster.

[Ykt]

i do have a question on this -

if you have a pally with cha 134(yes i know that is currently unreachable) - +62 mod - even a pure pally wouldnt get the full bonus. would destinies factor into this or is it hard coded?

so a say 4 pally splash in ld would have 2+ (4x3) = +14 max saves
would that same play splash in say dc have 2 + (10x3) = 32 max saves?

That's irrelevant, we're nowhere near 134 CHA, not even 100 CHA

[Ykt]

Any time we've tried to do a partial update to shore up a particular tree or class to give them some relief until their full pass we've had negative player feedback on those efforts.

Sev~

Hm ok so what you call player feedback is actually "how many threads did these 3 people (who don't play the game anymore) post to rant about whatever we did?"

1% is unhappy and screaming, 99% is just fine and currently playing instead of going to the forums

[Trillea]

That's irrelevant, we're nowhere near 134 CHA, not even 100 CHA

True, I believe that the max reachable ingame with all available gear and buffs is 94. I have reached 88 with only a +6 tome, only using 2 of 4 twist slots, only heroic Litany, and with only 1 of 3 possible epic CHA feats. This includes several very short-term buffs and extensive firsthand testing of what stacks and what does not.

[Thoden]

As a long-time (VIP) player of many toons who finally found his favorite playstyle, I'd love to see this post addressed. I admit, I only made it through 20 pages before I needed to get some coffee, but...


I'm totally ok with frequent and well thought out balance changes, games like Destiny and WoW are generally much better games than DDO at given points in time, because they simply change what must change.

That being said,

Throwing has ALWAYS been the red headed step child of combat styles.
-It has no improved combat style feats (it has SE, but that's weapon specific, not style). There are no Improved Throwing feats, though there are IPS and PS for general ranged.
-Shuriken are now, and from what I can tell into the future, the only remotely viable throwing weapon. And this requires at least 3 levels of monk. A big part of this problem is that passive bonuses to the crit multipliers (the very few that exist) don't work, ie Swashbuckler, and Rogue Mechanic (lvl 18 core). Holy Sword has never worked.

Really, the biggest issue with Throwers (and I bring this up in this thread because it is a BALANCE issue), is that no throwing weapon is compelling outside of Shurikens. And for the most part, an almost perfectly played and geared thrower (TF Tier 3, ToEE set, all the latest raid gear, etc. Like my main), can barely keep up with an above average-ly played 18-20 Rogue mechanic with middle to above average gear. If the very best incarnation of thrower is challenged and occasionally bested by someones xbow Rogue alt, we have a balance problem.

Please explain to me, if you please, why you think that is acceptable for what is arguably one of DDO's more interesting and unique combat styles?
-Do you have a future plan to address any of this? Most specifically, the issue with Throwing weapons not benefitting from increased passive critical multipliers.
-Have you ever played a thrower? Do you know that it's really fun and everyone should be able to try it like the other combat styles?
-Are you totally opposed to just adding a feat to the game called Throwing Expertise that works for all throwing weapons that is not a shuriken, and gives an extra chance for a projectile based on an ability score (Dex or Int)? Just remove Shuriken Expertise, and make it Throwing Expertise. Make it a multi-selector when you take the feat for which stat to use.

I'm am not looking to boost the throwing characters and builds I already have, though that would be nice since they are behind xbows, and may be behind archers depending on final AA and game balance changes.

I am looking for a couple of very small and easy changes that you could make to the game to make throwing, of all sorts, a viable endgame combat style for a number of different builds and classes.

I would really like to hear your (the devs) positions on these current issues, and your positions on fixing or addressing them in the future. I've spent 3 years playing and building throwers, and I want to know if it's just time to give up and go back to bows or not.

[KoobTheProud]

Nice changes. Really glad you bit the bullet and went after Improved Critical. That was step one in getting things under control, without which you'd have been whack-a-moleing on specific class abilities forever to try to get things under control.

It was also really nice to see Holy Sword changed to only effect main hand melee weapons. It may still be a bit too powerful and you really need to watch the power creep in general. As a casual player who plays into epic levels I'm always a bit worried that power creep will turn the game into an unplayable mess for me.

[Walking_Ride]

Nice changes. Really glad you bit the bullet and went after Improved Critical. That was step one in getting things under control, without which you'd have been whack-a-moleing on specific class abilities forever to try to get things under control.

It was also really nice to see Holy Sword changed to only effect main hand melee weapons. It may still be a bit too powerful and you really need to watch the power creep in general. As a casual player who plays into epic levels I'm always a bit worried that power creep will turn the game into an unplayable mess for me.

No.

Rangers ?

[JOTMON]

Hm ok so what you call player feedback is actually "how many threads did these 3 people (who don't play the game anymore) post to rant about whatever we did?"

1% is unhappy and screaming, 99% is just fine and currently playing instead of going to the forums

1% are players that are actually impacted by the changes because they are hardcore players that have put in the effort make their toons the best that they can be..
they spend money to get every advantage, like tomes, store pots, run all the endgame content excessively to get every twinked item, they care about what happens in the game because they are invested.
as a result they tend to be passionate and vocal on the forums.

99% are players that haven't got that far so it doesn't matter what happens, they wouldn't notice the changes anyway.
Not really invested, don't really care enough about the game to go to the forums, bounce around various games without any real care as to what happens to the game.

[KoobTheProud]

No.

Rangers ?

This is how Holy Sword works in PnP:


Holy Sword
Evocation [Good]
Level: Pal 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Melee weapon touched
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell allows you to channel holy power into your sword, or any other melee weapon you choose. The weapon acts as a +5 holy weapon (+5 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls, extra 2d6 damage against evil opponents). It also emits a magic circle against evil effect (as the spell). If the magic circle ends, the sword creates a new one on your turn as a free action. The spell is automatically canceled 1 round after the weapon leaves your hand. You cannot have more than one holy sword at a time.

If this spell is cast on a magic weapon, the powers of the spell supersede any that the weapon normally has, rendering the normal enhancement bonus and powers of the weapon inoperative for the duration of the spell. This spell is not cumulative with bless weapon or any other spell that might modify the weapon in any way.

This spell does not work on artifacts.

Note: A masterwork weapon’s bonus to attack does not stack with an enhancement bonus to attack.

What DDO did with Holy Sword in the Paladin pass was ridiculous to begin with. It was power creep at it's height of impact. Everybody began using 14 Pal/x in a bid to exploit it. It combo'd with Improved Critical, which was already out of control and with Overwhelming Critical in epic levels.

As it stands, once they've made the fix to both IC and Holy Sword it will just be pretty OP, not the thing a third of the melee base has to go to in order to compete.

With the recent pass Rangers are ridiculously OP also. Hopefully they'll fix that somehow if the IC fix doesn't bring things into line. It's true that Paladins are 1 weapon fighters by canon and Rangers are 2 weapon fighters but it still isn't going to be good if they are enormously more powerful than Paladins. They should have a DPS advantage because let's face it Paladins have a big survivability advantage, however if that advantage is too big we'll all run make Rangers because DPS is both offense and defense since the faster you kill something the more likely you will survive.

[Walking_Ride]

This is how Holy Sword works in PnP:



What DDO did with Holy Sword in the Paladin pass was ridiculous to begin with. It was power creep at it's height of impact. Everybody began using 14 Pal/x in a bid to exploit it. It combo'd with Improved Critical, which was already out of control and with Overwhelming Critical in epic levels.

As it stands, once they've made the fix to both IC and Holy Sword it will just be pretty OP, not the thing a third of the melee base has to go to in order to compete.

With the recent pass Rangers are ridiculously OP also. Hopefully they'll fix that somehow if the IC fix doesn't bring things into line. It's true that Paladins are 1 weapon fighters by canon and Rangers are 2 weapon fighters but it still isn't going to be good if they are enormously more powerful than Paladins. They should have a DPS advantage because let's face it Paladins have a big survivability advantage, however if that advantage is too big we'll all run make Rangers because DPS is both offense and defense since the faster you kill something the more likely you will survive.

Ok, lets stick to your pnp even when ddo =/= pnp.

Tell me where rangers get all this in pnp and i will shut up.

1. Paladin has divine might but rangers have know the angels from harper enhancement tree which adds half your int mod to damage and tactics.

2. Self healing in ddo is hardly a problem anymore with epic destinies. Also a ranger gets cure light/moderate/serious wounds from ranger spells.
They also get freedom of movement...

3. Paladin get light damage core but rangers get a lot sneack attack dice from deepwood stalker.

Rangers also get the following...

Fortification bypass : 10(Advanced Sneak Attack) + 10 (Mark of the Hunted) + 25%(Mark of the Hunted) = 45% more than paladins.

Doublestrike : Dervish (25%) offhand + 10% offhand (whirlwind) + 5% mainhand (whirlwind) = 40% - 10 % zeal paladin spell = 30% more than paladins.

Oh yea paladins will loose on exalted smite/divine sacrifice if they choose to take killer from deepwood stalker. While rangers keep exposing strike.

So another +20% doublestrike for a total of 30% + 20 % = 50 % more than pali

+5 Incorporeality (stacking) (whirlwind) + deflect arrows every 2 sec.

Oh, yes especially this too. For rangers off hand weapons are affected by +1 critical threat range (Advanced Sneak Attack) and +1 critical multiplier (Deflect Arrows) which translates to ~ 26 % dps .

Please tell me. I am all ears.

[slarden]

You're saying that yes, named items will be nerfed.

I'm asking why should named items be nerfed? Carnifex has been an iconic named item in DDO for years and years. It shouldn't be nerfed. None of them should.

It seems to me they can make the change to improved critical without changing keen, but they might be connected under the hood so I have no idea.

I am not sure why they are going on a nerf frenzy really. The timing is very odd.

[EllisDee37]

It seems to me they can make the change to improved critical without changing keen, but they might be connected under the hood so I have no idea.Well, they have to change the way keen works, otherwise people could circumvent the nerfs by switching to keen weapons.

I would like to see the "base" crit range of the expanded-range named weapons with keen get expanded further so that they remain the same:

Carnifex is a 19-20x3 base weapon with keen resulting in 17-20x3 on live. Make it an 18-20x3 base weapon so after the keen change it remains 17-20x3. Do something similar for the other named keen items with increased crit range. (Tiefling Assassin's Blade comes to mind.)

[slarden]

Well, they have to change the way keen works, otherwise people could circumvent the nerfs by switching to keen weapons.

I would like to see the "base" crit range of the expanded-range named weapons with keen get expanded further so that they remain the same:

Carnifex is a 19-20x3 base weapon with keen resulting in 17-20x3 on live. Make it an 18-20x3 base weapon so after the keen change it remains 17-20x3. Do something similar for the other named keen items with increased crit range. (Tiefling Assassin's Blade comes to mind.)

That is probably a wise thing, but I doubt Turbine will do it for 1 good reason and 1 bad reason.

1) good reason - they are boxed into doing that with new items or people will complain old items are better
2) bad reason - they assume players will get over it

[KoobTheProud]

Oh, yes especially this too. For rangers off hand weapons are affected by +1 critical threat range (Advanced Sneak Attack) and +1 critical multiplier (Deflect Arrows) which translates to ~ 26 % dps .



At the moment, with critical effect being the thing that's under scrutiny they might want to look at this if it's the thing giving TWF Rangers a huge edge over THF Paladins with a Greatsword and Holy Sword. I didn't say an edge, because Rangers probably should have an edge given everything else in play, a big edge is what would be the problem. 26% DPS would be a big edge.

[phalaeo]

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438926-Lamannia-Release-Notes-%28Last-Updated-10-15-15%29

So, the balance changes are already instituted on Lama? Why bother saying you care about player input?

[Walking_Ride]

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438926-Lamannia-Release-Notes-%28Last-Updated-10-15-15%29

So, the balance changes are already instituted on Lama? Why bother saying you care about player input?

They don't.

[Walking_Ride]

At the moment, with critical effect being the thing that's under scrutiny they might want to look at this if it's the thing giving TWF Rangers a huge edge over THF Paladins with a Greatsword and Holy Sword. I didn't say an edge, because Rangers probably should have an edge given everything else in play, a big edge is what would be the problem. 26% DPS would be a big edge.

Not just 26 %. They were ahead already by 30% before the nerf to holy sword now. 26% + 30% = 56 %. This is **** HUGE.

[KoobTheProud]

Not just 26 %. They were ahead already by 30% before the nerf to holy sword now. 26% + 30% = 56 %. This is **** HUGE.

They weren't ahead by that before the Ranger pass. They probably weren't ahead at all before the Ranger pass.

Obviously the devs want to avoid a rotating whinefest so I'm guessing they'll look at actual numbers and make sure things don't get too out of hand. Fixing the baselines is an important part of the process. You can't fix class and exploiter problems if the baselines are out of whack because every imbalance that a class-specific ability creates is multiplied by the baselines.

[Walking_Ride]

They weren't ahead by that before the Ranger pass. They probably weren't ahead at all before the Ranger pass.

Obviously the devs want to avoid a rotating whinefest so I'm guessing they'll look at actual numbers and make sure things don't get too out of hand. Fixing the baselines is an important part of the process. You can't fix class and exploiter problems if the baselines are out of whack because every imbalance that a class-specific ability creates is multiplied by the baselines.

They were ahead in terms of dps after the ranger pass when holy sword affected both weapons for obvious reason :


Fortification bypass : 10(Advanced Sneak Attack) + 10 (Mark of the Hunted) + 25%(Mark of the Hunted) = 45% more than paladins.

Doublestrike : Dervish (25%) offhand + 10% offhand (whirlwind) + 5% mainhand (whirlwind) = 40% - 10 % zeal paladin spell = 30% more than paladins.

Oh yea paladins will loose on exalted smite/divine sacrifice if they choose to take killer from deepwood stalker. While rangers keep exposing strike.

So another +20% doublestrike for a total of 30% + 20 % = 50 % more than pali

+5 Incorporeality (stacking) (whirlwind) + deflect arrows every 2 sec.


Actually it is more than 30% dps. More like 40-50 %.

Now with the nerf of holy sword not affecting both weapons you can add another 26% for a total of 66%-76%.

[Walking_Ride]

I am catching up on the thread. I apologize for not replying yesterday as I spent a lot of time chasing down the character transfer issues trying to get that back up for Lamannia. We are still working on that.

...

~ It's not that we mind two weapon fighting Paladins doing decent DPS, or two weapon barbarians doing decent DPS, but these builds should not be outperforming builds based on other styles by 40% or higher.

...

Sev~

Paladins are not outperforming other classes using the same style by 40% dps. Not even within their own fighting styles. Stop saying that.

Right now rangers do more than double the amount of dps when two weapon fighting.

Barbarians, rogues and bards hell even fighters are doing more dps when two weapon fighting.

Barbarians and bards do more dps when single weapon fighting.

Barbarians do more dps when two handed fighting.


Or was that meant to be - 40 % ? Because right now it is.

Also stop including other styles to give you a reason to nerf the same build within the very same fighting styles.

I am not that stupid to not notice a drop in dps by 30% when testing my twf paladin on lammania. You can't trick me.

[slarden]

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438926-Lamannia-Release-Notes-%28Last-Updated-10-15-15%29

So, the balance changes are already instituted on Lama? Why bother saying you care about player input?

/thread

[Holyavatar]

I am catching up on the thread. I apologize for not replying yesterday as I spent a lot of time chasing down the character transfer issues trying to get that back up for Lamannia. We are still working on that.

That said, there's some interesting feedback here and I wanted to give the players some insight into our current thoughts as we head towards some testing on Lamannia:

~ The changes to Improved Critical do mess up the balance for Assassins between kukri and daggers, and for Swashbucklers who can take enhancements to normalize weapon types. We are going to implement additional changes so that characters who have the Improved Critical feat will gain extra threat range for under performing weapons to maintain the weapon balance you have live using these builds.

~ Since Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars have a reduced rate of fire, fishing for Mortal Fear and similar procs will be slightly less effective. We understand this and designed with this in mind.

~ With the bug in certain Fury of the Wild enhancements, Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars can be used to get back uses of Adrenaline. With the new reduced rate of fire of Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars, utilizing this bug will be slightly less effective. We understand and have designed around this. We want to either legitimize this build by changing the wording on Fury Eternal so it officially supports ranged attacks or fix the bug, and we are looking forward to feedback on this from Lamannia.

~ It's not that we mind two weapon fighting Paladins doing decent DPS, or two weapon barbarians doing decent DPS, but these builds should not be outperforming builds based on other styles by 40% or higher.

~ We will be watching Vanguard Paladin builds to make sure they are still fun and competitive after the changes.

~ We think there has been a lot of good discussion in particular on MRR, armor, and whether these changes will put us back into a state where everyone feel compelled to take Evasion. We have read suggestions that some smaller amount of MRR might be added back to armors and we've been looking at that option. I just wanted to point out the reductions do not put us back to pre Armor Up balance. The PRR formula is more generous, and the PRR offered by armor is still higher. Heavy armor mitigates a lot more damage than before Armor Up. In addition, there are many sources of MRR, including gear, that simply did not exist before, including enhancements that only work with medium or heavy armors. Armored characters are still in much better shape than in the past, which is why we'd like to see this on Lamannia.

~ We have been reading with interest the concerns with named weapons that have increased threat ranges built in and how they interact with Improved Critical. This interaction is part of the design, as these threat ranges provided too much benefit previously. The fact that some of these weapons with lower level requirements were better than end game weapons highlights the problem fairly well.

~ Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars still provide a massive burst of damage; we really don't think these builds will lose their burst feel when these abilities provide an additional 200-300% damage increase depending on gearing.

***

We look forward to seeing player feedback from Lamannia, and here are some additional questions we have:

~ Does the newly smoothed two weapon fighting animation look good, and is the shorter animation providing too much of a DPS increase?

~ Do we want to legitimize Fury Eternal's gain of Adrenaline while using missile weapons, or do we want to fix that bug?

Sev~
Nice,im fine with keep bow builds to use fury eternal legitimately...but i think for Shurikens and repeating crossbows its way too op..especially for some shurikens builds,adrenaline is almost infinite..plus arrow of slaying :rolleyes:..btw,did u guys make arrow of slaying work for most ranged weapons by prepense,or its a bug?

[Undying_X]

(Edited: I apologize as I cut and paste the wrong draft into this post... Sev~)

Balance has been once of the top topics of conversation in the community for a while now, and we've said that we need to implement some balance changes, so I am writing this post to discuss our plans. We have seen feedback that players want more insight into our long-term balancing plans, and hear more about why we've been doing the things we've been doing. I've even had some players poke fun at my "over performing" terminology. Let's start by talking about our plans past and present, and how it fits into our long-term goals for balance and itemization.

Game and class balance is an ongoing process. Our goal is to have a more balanced game, but we understand this is a refining process that involves continual re-evaluation. That means if your favorite class is slightly behind (or in front) after a pass, we are fully capable and willing to tweak more. We expect designs will be fine-tuned based on player testing and observations.


***

Our current measure of melee effectiveness is Swashbuckler. Classes like Bard and Paladin have good spells, and strong class abilities. They can expect, if they build entirely towards melee, to deal out good melee DPS. Barbarian, Rogue and Ranger's basic class abilities aren't quite as strong, so characters built entirely toward melee will do a little more DPS. Fighter has very little basic class utility (their competitive advantage is extra feats, and they run out of strong feats) so we have our work cut out for us to balance fighters.

(Our only complaint about Swashbuckler is that Coup de Grace is too easy to pull off for a Bard, and it makes the ability really good for a class with great magical mitigation and Crowd Control. That's fairly low on our list of concerns, though, and Bard builds aren't dominating the playing field. It's more of a design nitpick.)

Swashbuckler was already finished when I came aboard, and it was very popular. We decided that other than some bugs revolving around Single Weapon Fighting that Swashbuckler would be the default level of power we would strive for with our passes. Part of it was that it gave melee equal footing with the Manyshot ranged builds and casters, and part of it was that players felt at the time that melee was not competitive.

The other things that players communicated to us when we started talking about class updates:



Armored characters were well behind Evasion builds.
Shields didn't offer enough benefits to offset the loss of DPS.
On-hit effects were “useless” at end game because they didn't scale.


There were also some design considerations we had:



There were few important DPS stats except for crit.
There was no good way to give characters an incremental increase in magic damage mitigation. Saving throws offer binary protection (you either make your Saving Throw or you don't), and are subject to bad luck.
Spellpower was an excellent tool for gradual increase in power, and melee and ranged had no equivalent.
There was no good way for abilities to scale into epic levels as a default.
Temporary hit point abilities were considered "terrible".



Our overall design was to introduce some powerful stats that allowed a solid foundation for incremental power increase for both class balance and itemization. We introduced the melee and ranged equivalent to Spell Power since a similar stat already existed in game. We introduced the magic equivalent to Physical Resistance Rating since a similar stat already existed in-game. We tied on-hit damage scaling to these new stats so on-hit effects would scale into epic levels. We used these new stats to provide a gradual level-based scale for epic levels that could be used to scale various abilities.

When we look at the bigger picture, we've tried to pretty much keep to that design when working through character passes.

Here are our current goals and design challenges:



Two Weapon Fighting builds are dealing too much DPS. This is generally because on-hit effects now scale with melee power, and we've relaxed many internal cooldown limits on to-hit effects. We expected Two Weapon Fighting builds to scale quickly when we changed on-hit effects, and balanced the fighting style feats to compensate, but that was a world before Assassin and Tempest were updated, and players largely equated Two Weapon Fighting to those trees. Now that those are updated we can look at re-adjusting the two weapon fighting feats.
We have a problem with 14 Paladin hybrids being better than other options due to Holy Sword, yet a severe nerf to Holy Sword would drag down Two Handed Fighting and Vanguard paladins a little too much.
Ravager barbarians have too much self healing for the DPS they are capable of.
Basic armor offers too much mitigation for its cost. While we are happy that armored characters are relevant again, we want to cut back on it a bit.


Essentially the changes we've posted above are bug fixes and balance changes that not only continue this plan, but also address concerns, both public and private, of the player base about game balance and difficulty.

In the changes above we have also added a number of fighter only feats that will give them some powerful options for both active mitigation through tactical feats and abilities, and passive mitigation through the use of armor. This is not meant to replace the fighter pass.

We look forward to your feedback.

Sev~


Hey Sev,
I had an honest question about balancing the classes primarily with ranged Artificers. Are they next to get some attention? I'm curious about it because I love the class but around level 15 Artificer starts loosing the power needed to actually compete without respecing into casters. This problem get a worse in epic difficulty quests where they don't have the ability to keep up with the quest scaling with their ranging. And the pet isn't much help either because even though the stats for them are amazing they seem to be also unable to keep up with the scaling and remaining unglitched long enough to actually use the stats

P.S the hireling vendor sells a shiradi champion ranger labeled as 23 but is actually level 24 on the flavor text box

[Sunnie]

I'm not gonna read all the posts in this thread, but here's my criticism of the proposed changes as seen in the OP.

Holy Sword
It really should work for bows if you're a follower of the Silver Flame. It's their FAVORED WEAPON. Otherwise I approve

Two Weapon Fighting line
No longer granting melee power seems unnecessary. Rogues would be hit hardest by this change I believe.

Manyshot + 10k Stars
Using doubleshot and ranged power seems like a good idea to me, but looking at it, I'm having a hard time justifying more than 6 levels of ranger on an archer for the free feats. Doubly so with what I saw about using wisdom in the Arcane Archer tree. Monks are still at the short end of the melee dps stick, but it seems like you're really trying to make them the best bow users in the game.

Improved Critical + Keen
If this only affected basic weapons it would be fine... but it doesn't. It also affects every named weapon in the game. You'll kill off Q-staves again just when they started to get semi-competitive. Sireth, Thunderforged, Bone Crusher will be hit hardest, Elemental Bloom and the Stout Oak Walking Stick will suffer as well.
Some other weapons will become less effective as well, but for q-staff builds, that usually utilise named items to catch up to others in terms of critical damage, the proposed change is effectivelly a death sentence and would reduce build diversity overall.

I am less concerned about changing Keen/Impact in this way, since it will largely affect generic loot, and surely you would go through the named items that have the Keen or Impact afffix and rebalance them. Right? You would do that, right?

Divine Grace
This will actually only serve to make builds with lots of paladin levels more desireable compared to a splash of 2. If you go through with this, remember to rebalance the saves on monster abilities and spells so people who're not paladins with maxed out charisma can make them as well.

[gwonbush]

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/438926-Lamannia-Release-Notes-%28Last-Updated-10-15-15%29

So, the balance changes are already instituted on Lama? Why bother saying you care about player input?

They have made a couple changes already from the original post from the feedback in this thread. But yes, the time for theory-crafting in this thread producing any results is over. They want hard testing on Lam (which can't be done since it was brought down, hopefully to be brought back up again for one final round of change testing).

[elvesunited]

They don't.

That's not true. From what I can tell the devs have already backed off on restricting holy sword to melee and i think I heard them they say they're going to change the improved critical changes so they don't hurt swashbuckler bards, kukri assassins. ( and hopefully wolf druids )

Many of us are still trying to convince them that the PRR, MRR armor loss is too severe and actually ends up nerfing the weaker builds harder than the stronger ones.

As long as it's on lama it can be changed and I recall them some final tweaks to warlocks right before going into the main servers.

[Walking_Ride]

That's not true. From what I can tell the devs have already backed off on restricting holy sword to melee and i think I heard them they say they're going to change the improved critical changes so they don't hurt swashbuckler bards, kukri assassins. ( and hopefully wolf druids )

Many of us are still trying to convince them that the PRR, MRR armor loss is too severe and actually ends up nerfing the weaker builds harder than the stronger ones.

As long as it's on lama it can be changed and I recall them some final tweaks to warlocks right before going into the main servers.

Good for archers. What about two weapon fighting being affected by holy sword ? especially off hand weapons ? No ?

[1Soulless1]

That's not true. From what I can tell the devs have already backed off on restricting holy sword to melee and i think I heard them they say they're going to change the improved critical changes so they don't hurt swashbuckler bards, kukri assassins. ( and hopefully wolf druids )

Many of us are still trying to convince them that the PRR, MRR armor loss is too severe and actually ends up nerfing the weaker builds harder than the stronger ones.

As long as it's on lama it can be changed and I recall them some final tweaks to warlocks right before going into the main servers.


Wrong, if its on lama its going live as it, bugs, 'features' and all no matter what we report. Lama is a preview server not a test server. ( unless it benefits us, then it will ruthlessly be hunted and nerfed)


As usual the dev team is using a "nuke it from orbit" approach to fix something instead of a scalpel. The main problem is nothing will change, the 'so called power gamer' will just find a new approach and find another combination that is mathematically 'the best', while the casual gamer while be hit the most and hardest.

[bloodnose13]

since i noticed there were some changes to animations too, could i suggest takeing a look at 4th animation in regular shield on/swf animation set, the one that looks like cleave (all around swing, in fact it hits only one target), this one animation is longer than the previous 3 and slows down the attack chain, could you either hasten it a bit or replace it for attack animation that is attached to sunder? i think that sunder animation would fit better to other 3 attacks since they are all forward facing too.

[GeoffWatson]

I am catching up on the thread. I apologize for not replying yesterday as I spent a lot of time chasing down the character transfer issues trying to get that back up for Lamannia. We are still working on that.

That said, there's some interesting feedback here and I wanted to give the players some insight into our current thoughts as we head towards some testing on Lamannia:

~ The changes to Improved Critical do mess up the balance for Assassins between kukri and daggers, and for Swashbucklers who can take enhancements to normalize weapon types. We are going to implement additional changes so that characters who have the Improved Critical feat will gain extra threat range for under performing weapons to maintain the weapon balance you have live using these builds.

Sev~

Will you also improve Staff Specialization, Ninja Master, and Master Thrower, or will they be even further behind?

[Ziindarax]

#1 - MRR should not be removed from armor - the point of HAVING them on the armor to begin with was to make armor competitive to melee, and let's be honest, Pure Artificers need MRR the MOST, and cannot typically use shields if playing by their class features (rune arms, etc). With Champions appearing in large numbers, and some raids [Defiler of the Just for instance] being brutal against the players with our CURRENT POWER LEVELS, it seems a bad idea altogether, especially for Arti's. For epic levels, they're pretty close to useless and have become very rare. Magic Damage in Epic Elite is obscene, combined with the fact that your enemy caster mobs only know two spells - negative level spam and stun spam. Leading to #2

#2 - If you're going to nerf Divine Grace Dramatically, THEN YOU NEED TO BE DOING SOMETHING ABOUT MONSTER DCs AS THE ONLY WAY TO SURVIVE CHALLENGING CONTENT IS TO HAVE HIGH SAVES, WHICH ONLY PALADINS CAN ACHIEVE!!! This should have gone without saying, really, as player DC's are outright terrible in most instances (especially where casters are concerned, I think only Bards can pull of the DC's needed to effect some kind of crowd control in higher leveled content). I am not saying make the saves easy, but make it possible for a non-paladin to achieve functional saves that, if built for, will allow you a chance to survive.*

#3 - Make Caster DC's Meaningful - This thread is called a "Balance Change post", but all I see is talk of nerfing and reducing what players are capable of (with fighters gaining exclusivity on retaining functional pre-nerf mrr/prr, but more on that in a bit). If you intend to ignore feedback imploring against removing MRR from PRR, making Tanks less efficate, DPS weaker across the board (TWF and Warlocks - some of those items listed should not have been touched, as Consume/Stricken have a high cool down for a decently powered spell, and are single target), then DC casters need to have bones thrown back to them so they can make your more challenging content actually playable (with every update, the mobs are becoming more and more powerful, being catered to an over-powered elite who will continue to complain the game is too easy - likely with intent to grief the "lesser" players through bad feedback - yes, I just went there).

#4 - Monster Damage - The reason PRR/MRR became necessary in the first place is because of your out-of-control buffing of monster damage, and making monsters into giant bags of hitpoints rather than giving them interesting powers and abilities. If you intend to ignore point #3, and nerf as planned in the suggestions, then the monster damage definitely needs to be dialed back - Epic Normal in Temple of Elemental Evil is capable of killing a well-geared player pretty easily. Dial the monsters back, and the power creep won't be necessary for players.

#5 - Make loot interesting and truly unique - Forgoing MRR on armor and what not, and allowing monsters to remain gigantic sacks of hit points with waaaay too much damage (necessitating the values for PRR/MRR that you are NOW nerfing), at least make interesting loot that does something really cool (albeit with a limited # of charges) - I am talking Armor of the Mirror Knight (either with a set # of charges, or a % chance to deflect incoming spells back at the caster), or something which triggers a Madusa petrify effect on monsters that hit players equipped with a type of goggles. This should also apply to monsters (see next point below)

#6 - Instead of nerfing classes and class features, and in this case, a line of feats, why not buff the remaining classes to make them equally viable? And also, replace gigantic monster HP with interesting traits/features - Perhaps a monster has a piece of equipment that inflicts shiradi-like effects when they strike you, or have armor/shields which absorb your spells, or even deflect spells right back at you?

#7 - Finally, but not the least, those suggested feats are nice for Fighters, and if we're talking about revamping a class, why not let a fighter choose a path - defense, offense, or tactical. For every incremented level as suggested by the devs, the fighter gains a free feat (if he/she remains a fighter), relevant to that path - so defense gets the prr/mrr boost, offense gets weapon specialization/focus, and tactical gets the DC boosts suggested.

My biggest grievance with the path the developers are taking things, and have taken things, is they're showing a lack of creativity in how to handle the genies they let out of the bottles they haphazardly open. Especially since the monsters in the quests will likely retain their absurd power levels (I am looking at Epic Necro 4 and adventure packs coming thereafter).


In any event, I hope the devs will listen to reason, especially where MRR is concerned - remember why you put it in in the first place. :)


* Please Note: I refer to Paladin splashes when I say nerf, because pure paladins would be getting a crazy gigantic boost if the change remains as suggested - does Charisma still factor into that, or is that completely gone?

[Walking_Ride]

#1 - MRR should not be removed from armor - the point of HAVING them on the armor to begin with was to make armor competitive to melee, and let's be honest, Pure Artificers need MRR the MOST, and cannot typically use shields if playing by their class features (rune arms, etc). With Champions appearing in large numbers, and some raids [Defiler of the Just for instance] being brutal against the players with our CURRENT POWER LEVELS, it seems a bad idea altogether, especially for Arti's. For epic levels, they're pretty close to useless and have become very rare. Magic Damage in Epic Elite is obscene, combined with the fact that your enemy caster mobs only know two spells - negative level spam and stun spam. Leading to #2

#2 - If you're going to nerf Divine Grace Dramatically, THEN YOU NEED TO BE DOING SOMETHING ABOUT MONSTER DCs AS THE ONLY WAY TO SURVIVE CHALLENGING CONTENT IS TO HAVE HIGH SAVES, WHICH ONLY PALADINS CAN ACHIEVE!!! This should have gone without saying, really, as player DC's are outright terrible in most instances (especially where casters are concerned, I think only Bards can pull of the DC's needed to effect some kind of crowd control in higher leveled content). I am not saying make the saves easy, but make it possible for a non-paladin to achieve functional saves that, if built for, will allow you a chance to survive.*

#3 - Make Caster DC's Meaningful - This thread is called a "Balance Change post", but all I see is talk of nerfing and reducing what players are capable of (with fighters gaining exclusivity on retaining functional pre-nerf mrr/prr, but more on that in a bit). If you intend to ignore feedback imploring against removing MRR from PRR, making Tanks less efficate, DPS weaker across the board (TWF and Warlocks - some of those items listed should not have been touched, as Consume/Stricken have a high cool down for a decently powered spell, and are single target), then DC casters need to have bones thrown back to them so they can make your more challenging content actually playable (with every update, the mobs are becoming more and more powerful, being catered to an over-powered elite who will continue to complain the game is too easy - likely with intent to grief the "lesser" players through bad feedback - yes, I just went there).

#4 - Monster Damage - The reason PRR/MRR became necessary in the first place is because of your out-of-control buffing of monster damage, and making monsters into giant bags of hitpoints rather than giving them interesting powers and abilities. If you intend to ignore point #3, and nerf as planned in the suggestions, then the monster damage definitely needs to be dialed back - Epic Normal in Temple of Elemental Evil is capable of killing a well-geared player pretty easily. Dial the monsters back, and the power creep won't be necessary for players.

#5 - Make loot interesting and truly unique - Forgoing MRR on armor and what not, and allowing monsters to remain gigantic sacks of hit points with waaaay too much damage (necessitating the values for PRR/MRR that you are NOW nerfing), at least make interesting loot that does something really cool (albeit with a limited # of charges) - I am talking Armor of the Mirror Knight (either with a set # of charges, or a % chance to deflect incoming spells back at the caster), or something which triggers a Madusa petrify effect on monsters that hit players equipped with a type of goggles. This should also apply to monsters (see next point below)

#6 - Instead of nerfing classes and class features, and in this case, a line of feats, why not buff the remaining classes to make them equally viable? And also, replace gigantic monster HP with interesting traits/features - Perhaps a monster has a piece of equipment that inflicts shiradi-like effects when they strike you, or have armor/shields which absorb your spells, or even deflect spells right back at you?

#7 - Finally, but not the least, those suggested feats are nice for Fighters, and if we're talking about revamping a class, why not let a fighter choose a path - defense, offense, or tactical. For every incremented level as suggested by the devs, the fighter gains a free feat (if he/she remains a fighter), relevant to that path - so defense gets the prr/mrr boost, offense gets weapon specialization/focus, and tactical gets the DC boosts suggested.

My biggest grievance with the path the developers are taking things, and have taken things, is they're showing a lack of creativity in how to handle the genies they let out of the bottles they haphazardly open. Especially since the monsters in the quests will likely retain their absurd power levels (I am looking at Epic Necro 4 and adventure packs coming thereafter).


In any event, I hope the devs will listen to reason, especially where MRR is concerned - remember why you put it in in the first place. :)


* Please Note: I refer to Paladin splashes when I say nerf, because pure paladins would be getting a crazy gigantic boost if the change remains as suggested - does Charisma still factor into that, or is that completely gone?

You don't get the saves from divine grace for free. You will still need high amounts of charisma.

[Ziindarax]

You don't get the saves from divine grace for free. You will still need high amounts of charisma.

You quoted my entire post, yet only respond to one item? Bleh. But here's where my question is coming from:

"Divine Grace (Paladin)
Divine Grace now provides a maximum bonus equal to 2 + (Paladin level x 3).
"

That seems to imply it's based on paladin levels rather than charisma. Can you quote a dev post proving otherwise?

[raznorw]

~ The changes to Improved Critical do mess up the balance for Assassins between kukri and daggers, and for Swashbucklers who can take enhancements to normalize weapon types. We are going to implement additional changes so that characters who have the Improved Critical feat will gain extra threat range for under performing weapons to maintain the weapon balance you have live using these builds.

Sev~

How about for other classes that have enhancements to specific weapon types? ie

- Ninja spy for short swords, kamas and shuriken

- Henshin / Acrobat with Quarterstaves

- possibly others, but those are all I can think of at the moment.

[lyrecono]

dear Dev's,

Just did some testing
My lv 28 barb goes from 100mrr to 50 mrr just by taking of the platemail (shadowscale wich has no mrr on it)
that amount of mrr loss is gone be a bloodbath for tankish melees


This week i have done roughly 20 raids, in 15 of them i've been the last men standing.
If a vet is telling you this is going to be a bloodbath, how do you think the not so vocal, non forum using population is going to respond to these changes?

You're not only hurting the veterans who have farmed for years to get their gear, you're also hurting the casuals that depend on those vets to pull m through content.
Please reconsider this update, the armor up update was a good move this one isn't

[Grace_ana]

I am really starting to be disturbed by the direction the game is going. I felt that previously, there was a realistic big-picture regarding the class passes and changes. Now it feels like that has all been thrown to the wind while the devs play whack-a-mole.

I fully applaud the desire to make sure the game is relatively balanced. What I don't like is 1) the way in which that is being accomplished, and 2) the measures being used by the devs to determine power and lack thereof. Number 1 obviously - and strongly - relates to Number 2.

As an example, I got very frustrated in the ranger discussions, because it felt like the measures being used to determine archer-ranger capabilities were not pure class, and using furyshot. When you test build power using various multiclass builds, it makes the entire measurement process fail, because it was meant to be a pass for rangers, not ranger-monks or ranger-paladins or any other mix. So we would have discussions on why the proposals were messed up, and the answers would relate to what the devs are seeing in "some builds" and in "some EDs." So then we nerf everything, and it makes the people that don't want to play those FotW builds even less relevant.

Class passes and class powers should be measured using pure class builds and put up against other pure class builds. Period.

Further, the aforementioned whack-a-mole game is a losing proposition, and all you will end up doing is screwing up the game mechanics royally. There will always be certain power builds and combinations that will be strong. That is pretty much the purpose of multiclassing - finding the perfect combination of class levels and everything else so that you maximize your power and minimize what you give up. If someone finds a way to do that and it's awesome, great. Why do we need to change the entire game to "address" those builds? Because sure as shootin' after your changes, the next min-max build will pop up. Because that's what players do. So, will you then make more changes to "address" that too? And the cycle continues until what was DDO isn't even recognizable anymore? To gain nothing, because there are still power builds? I don't understand what you are hoping to accomplish here.

The proposed changes are, for the most part, nonsensical. Allow me to illustrate:



Holy Sword (Paladin)
This is now a spell that affects the paladin and buffs whatever melee weapon is being wielded in the main hand.
It no longer persists on your weapon but instead buffs the melee weapon you are holding in your main hand. (Yes, this buffs your two handed weapons.)
It no longer affects missile weapons.
It no longer can be used to buff off hand weapons or shields.
If you change weapons the spell will drop off the unequipped weapon and instead be applied to the newly equipped weapon.

Translation: people complained that paladins were the best archers, so instead of addressing the actual issues with ranged fighting that were repeatedly discussed by players, we will just nerf paladins. Because everyone knows that missile weapons are totally OP. (Hint: They're not anywhere close to OP.)

This change (and the TWF change) essentially pigeonholes paladins into playing either TWF or S&B. No build diversity for you, paladins. DDO isn't about that.

Plus, one of the biggest complaints about Holy Sword is that it was the only way to get significant crit bonuses. You guys solved that by putting more crit bonuses in the other trees. Problem solved, no one "had" to take 14 levels of pally anymore. So why the nerf?


Blood Strength (Barbarian Ravager)
The portion of this enhancement that heals the user when they kill an opponent now has a 1 second internal cooldown.

That goes for you too, TWF barbs. Stop surviving encounters and buy a hireling. (Hint: your hireling will die.)


Two weapon fighting animations have been fixed so there is no longer a weird jump on the fourth animation. This has made the fourth attack slightly quicker.

Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Improved Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Greater Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.

We have decided paladins and barbs are doing too much DPS. Therefore, we will nerf rogues. And don't think we will be going back to your class pass after this either, rogues.


Doubleshot values over 100% now have a chance of producing a third attack. The chance is equal to the amount the value exceeds 100. A doubleshot value of 130, for example, would always produce one extra shot and have a 30% chance to produce a third shot.

(Doublestrike will still cap at 100 for technical reasons.)

Great! Except...


Manyshot
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 20 seconds you add your (base attack bonus * 4) to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. This ability puts Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 2 minutes.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

Ten Thousand Stars
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 30 seconds you add your Wisdom ability score to your Ranged Power and you add your monk level * 5 to your Doubleshot. This ability puts Manyshot on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 1 minute.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

Oh. I take back my great. Because nothing is better, obviously, than to take an underpowered fighting style and nerf it. And yes, I read all the stuff on how it isn't REALLY a nerf, because the doubleshot penalty is gone now! So it's all good, right! Except it's not actually, and it doesn't actually make up for it in real numbers.

But I'm told that this is a lag issue, so I expect all lag issues in the game will be resolved upon change of these feats, right? (Hint: I will be disappointed in this.)


Mechanical Reloader (Rogue Mechanic)
The alacrity for non-repeating crossbows is now 30%. (Was 40%)

See above for comments on rogues. They definitely needed a nerf, because they were able to kill things, and that is unacceptable. People were having FUN, you guys.


Improved Critical
These feats now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

Keen
This loot effect now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

I'm legit not willing to dig into all this math right now, but it looks to me like a big boost to certain weapons and a corresponding nerf to others. Why, exactly? Because there was a bug? So....fix the bug. Or make a change that doesn't actually fling all weapon profiles into a blender.

If I'm wrong on the math, mea culpa. I did say I wasn't going to look at those details.


Armor Changes
The amount of Physical Resist Rating that armor provides has been changed.
* Heavy armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 2) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Medium armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1.5) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Light Armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
Fixed a bug where players were getting Physical Resist Rating for armor with which they were not proficient.

(Note: The Physical Resist Rating and Magical Resist Rating offered by shields remain unchanged.)

Devs: We don't want only evasion builds to be viable. Let's introduce MRR to make armor helpful.
Players: Okay, we shall wield this new power you have given us.
Devs: On second thought, you can't have it.
Players: Wait, why?
Devs: Because.

So, does this mean you DO want only evasion builds to be viable again? It's like Jekyll and Hyde up in here.


As a result of dialing back armor, some fighter only feats that will boost their effectiveness with armor and add to tactical DCs will also be included.

Heavy Armor Training
Requires Fighter Level 2
You gain +3 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 6
You gain +6 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Master
Requires Fighter Level 10
You gain +9 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Champion
Requires Fighter Level 14
You gain +12 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Notes: All Heavy Armor feats stack for a total of +30. The lower level feats are not prerequisites for the higher level feats so a higher level fighter could save a feat if he/she wanted to skip Heavy Armor Training and forego the +3 and still have access to Heavy Armor Champion.

So, you decided that fighters had too many build choices with their many feats and decided to fill up their feat slots with things they need to survive? Somehow I suspect we will be seeing the rise (again) of the evasion fighter instead. Or, people will basically be required to heavily splash fighter if they want to use armor. It's like the new toughness, you guys.


Divine Grace (Paladin)
Divine Grace now provides a maximum bonus equal to 2 + (Paladin level x 3).


I've already ranted in multiple threads about this proposed change. It's ridiculous.

Devs: We want to make people take more paladin levels, so let's nerf Divine Grace.
Players: That won't make people play pallies. Make pallies worth playing and we will play them.
Devs: Wish granted!
Players: Thanks! Now we will all play paladins!
Devs: But we'ew still going to nerf Divine Grace.
Players: But it only helps a very small number of builds that have no other way to get that help with saves, and you need a really high charisma to make it worthwhile. What's the point?
Devs: Balance.

What is being balanced, exactly? Please show me the builds that are so OP because of Divine Grace. Please also choose ones that are not 1) multilife toons, 2) stacked with tomes, and 3) decked out with the very best end game raid gear. Oh, that makes it really tough? Exactly. It takes a huge investment to make DG worthwhile.

I'm really starting to think you are just trying to kill multiclassing here.


Eldritch Blast and other enhancements (Warlock)
The spellpower scaling for Eldritch Blast and several enhancements has been reduced.

Spellpower scaling of Warlock Abilities


Ability
Old
New


Eldritch Blast
150%
130%


Eldritch Blast Cone
130%
130%


Eldritch Blast Chain
110%
95%


Eldritch Blast Aura
150%
130%


Stricken (Souleater)
150%
125%


Consume (Souleater)
150%
125%


Eldritch Burst (Enlightened Spirit)
120%
100%


Spirit Blast (Enlightened Spirit)
120%
100%




Right, because warlock could kill things before, and that obviously had to change right quick. Nevermind that warlock, much like sorc, dominated heroics (but not ridiculously so) but struggled more with epics. We should nerf them so they never want to show their faces in epics again.

In all of this, I'm trying really hard, but failing, to see the overall beneficial changes to the game. Yes, I have read Sev's reasoning posts, and I remain completely nonplussed by all this. It looks like you are trying to scale back player power - but only here or there, in ways that will actually unbalance the game. You've spent all this time trying to rebalance classes along the way, and for the most part you have succeeded in doing that and making both pure and multiclasses viable. That's not an easy feat, and you should be proud of it. Instead, you guys decided that it was all wrong, like an anorexic looking in a mirror, and and unbalancing the game again.

I would urge you to put a full stop on all this, but it's on Lamma so I know it's a done deal. People on Lamma tested it, btw, and found that these changes are absolutely KILLING those classes you JUST rebalanced to be viable. All that work straight down the tubes.

I honestly can't understand it.

[maizotome]

The ones I really pity are the Kensei holdouts, who are about to see Keen Edge's effectiveness cut in half...like they weren't struggling enough to keep up! :(

EDIT: my solution would've been simpler - keep Imp Crit's current functionality, but only apply it to the weapon's base crit range; any crit range bonuses from PrEs or EDs are applied after IC, not before. So weapons like Sireth, eSOS, etc. get to keep their base crit profile, but lose the free doubling of extra crit range bonuses, which seems to be what Turbine is really trying to nerf. In instances where this nerfs DPS too much (e.g., Celestial Champion), they can increase those crit range bonuses instead.

This indeed is the only satisfactory and tolerable way to nerf some OverPowered builds(both item and character) without frightening off all those casual players who hardly farmed and found weapons with non-standart critical profile (http://ddowiki.com/page/Threat_range#Named_weapons)

best regards~

[DirkTyrant]

I have trouble accepting your basic assumptions.

Were there hoards of bow-shooting paladins that were tearing up the game? I only ever remember seeing ONE guy.... and he wasn't overpowered. A spell that requires FOURTEEN level of paladin.... is maybe the ONLY reason for taking paladin besides save bonuses.... but 14 levels is NOT a splash bonanza - it feels... appropriate (and I don't have a pally that ever used it).

You nerf twf, armor wearers, many shot.... were there hoards of Rangers that were tearing up the game? I don't think so. In fact... my impression is that most players don't play rangers BECAUSE they don't have the dps.

and you nerf monks?!? They are currently UNDER-powered. and why, pray-tell... do the Devs seem to LOVE shuriken throwers?

I agree that Barbs self-healing is WAY TOO good - and it shouldn't be. I agree that Warlocks are OP... and could use a nerfing.... INCLUDING the plethora of HUGE temp hps (which you aren't touching).

The things that I think are over-powered.... you have ignored. Besides.... Over-poweredness... is not the most pressing issue with the game. The imbalances that I see are based on the Timeliness of Class Revamping. Is seems that WHATEVER you have recently touched... BECOMES overpowered. Hence, my hesitancy of YOU being the ones capable of analyzing the weaknesses and being able to fix them. I suggest you just GET TO THE CLASSES you haven't touched in a long while.... and then - they will ALL be OP.... and, as an amazing coincidence - actually BECOME balanced!!!

[Grace_ana]

You quoted my entire post, yet only respond to one item? Bleh. But here's where my question is coming from:

"Divine Grace (Paladin)
Divine Grace now provides a maximum bonus equal to 2 + (Paladin level x 3).
"

That seems to imply it's based on paladin levels rather than charisma. Can you quote a dev post proving otherwise?

This is a good point, and it honestly infuriates me even more if that's the case. With current DG on live, you have to make a big investment into charisma to make it worthwhile. That's the limiting factor. So you either have to use lots of tomes/gear etc. or be a charisma-based toon, which has its own limitations. With this change, literally any class compatible with paladin can get at least a +8 boost to all saves for two levels of pally no matter whether they invested in charisma or not. It's more "free" saves than we previously had.

[GeoffWatson]

This is a good point, and it honestly infuriates me even more if that's the case. With current DG on live, you have to make a big investment into charisma to make it worthwhile. That's the limiting factor. So you either have to use lots of tomes/gear etc. or be a charisma-based toon, which has its own limitations. With this change, literally any class compatible with paladin can get at least a +8 boost to all saves for two levels of pally no matter whether they invested in charisma or not. It's more "free" saves than we previously had.

It's still based on Charisma, with a maximum of 2 + 3 times Paladin level.
They said they were planning this change years ago, and I thought they has already done it.

[Grace_ana]

It's still based on Charisma, with a maximum of 2 + 3 times Paladin level.
They said they were planning this change years ago, and I thought they has already done it.

Okay, so they took a good feat and made it worthless for everyone but paladins. Perfect. I mean, this isn't a game that thrives on multiclassing anyway.

[slarden]

Okay, so they took a good feat and made it worthless for everyone but paladins. Perfect. I mean, this isn't a game that thrives on multiclassing anyway.

yep,

I mean it still works for builds that dump charisma because whether you have a good charisma or not you will get the max.

Divine Grace is supposed to be based on charisma but someone that dumps charisma with 2 pal levels will end up with the same +8 that a character with 70 charisma has. It's so wrong and it gives paladins a monopoly on saves which isn't really necessary since they are already the top dog in the game.

The issue is primarily fort saves. There are a few places in the game where you either make your fort save or die. A high charisma build can still get good will saves with force of personality. Reflex saves no longer matter if you get to about an 80 MRR. So it's basically just an issue of whether or not you want to pass fort save tests in a few quests - disintegrate, flesh to stone, etc.

[slarden]

I am really starting to be disturbed by the direction the game is going. I felt that previously, there was a realistic big-picture regarding the class passes and changes. Now it feels like that has all been thrown to the wind while the devs play whack-a-mole.

I fully applaud the desire to make sure the game is relatively balanced. What I don't like is 1) the way in which that is being accomplished, and 2) the measures being used by the devs to determine power and lack thereof. Number 1 obviously - and strongly - relates to Number 2.

Yep and I even used the same whack-a-mole analogy myself.

I have 0 confidence in the dev team at this point. I was starting to feel they understood the game, but it's become clear recently they have been relying on a few people that have a perspective of their own, but don't represent the player base well. I don't mind them changing directions and I sort of understand why, but I am not willing to accept a big loss of progress which will result if my weapon choices become sub-optimal compared to weapon choices that used to be identical.

I think there is simply more to the story than they will tell us, because they have to know how bad this all looks.

[Seikojin]

You're saying that yes, named items will be nerfed.

I'm asking why should named items be nerfed? Carnifex has been an iconic named item in DDO for years and years. It shouldn't be nerfed. None of them should.

Nerfed only due to the general changes to how improved crit and keen will work. I know keen and improved crit used a formula that is buggy, doubling more than just the weapons range for crit.

I think I sense an augment or three to come out soon that will add crit expansion.

[Seikojin]

Yep and I even used the same whack-a-mole analogy myself.

I have 0 confidence in the dev team at this point. I was starting to feel they understood the game, but it's become clear recently they have been relying on a few people that have a perspective of their own, but don't represent the player base well. I don't mind them changing directions and I sort of understand why, but I am not willing to accept a big loss of progress which will result if my weapon choices become sub-optimal compared to weapon choices that used to be identical.

I think there is simply more to the story than they will tell us, because they have to know how bad this all looks.

There is no need to beat around any bushes.

Dps right now is high enough to where they cannot easily increase power without making a new system.

More systems add more values to combat that are unique and introduce lag in the long run (see procs on hit and abilities in play).

Changing IC and Keen, Many Shot and 10k, as well as holy sword reins the largest bulk of rampant combat beasts in. DPS will be down, sure. But this fixed system allows more growth that is controlled and can float (meaning abilities, feats, enhancements, or on items, heck can even tome it to be a character buff), scale ins a linear fashion, and rise to the endgame tiers that aren't made yet.

I mean, the devs pretty much have said all of this. And as suck as it is right now, you won't die any faster, we as players can adapt to the difficulty of the game, and things will evolve upward to where it is today, but across a larger spectrum of builds.

[elvesunited]

I mean, the devs pretty much have said all of this. And as suck as it is right now, you won't die any faster, we as players can adapt to the difficulty of the game, and things will evolve upward to where it is today, but across a larger spectrum of builds.

I thought that the adding of PRR and MRR to armors was an attempt to open the game up to a greater number of builds. ( and yes losing that will result in characters dying faster ). Moderate to Low hp builds that don't have evasion needed the boost.

[Thrudh]

I kinda liked DDO how it's been for most of the last 5 years and don't want slower paced combat and less crits

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I'm confused. Your posting history doesn't really seem to show that you "kinda liked DDO how it's been for the last 5 years". But I certainly will take you at your word, and I'm very glad you've enjoyed playing.

[MangLord]

I was starting to feel they understood the game, but it's become clear recently they have been relying on a few people that have a perspective of their own, but don't represent the player base well.

If you're talking about the player's council, I can assure you that we represent a wide array of players and playstyles, and we definitely voice our opinions with the information we're given. There are times when the devs present us with information about the future, such as this one, that is generally not well received by anyone but they have a plan that they're going to implement regardless. Most times the ideas are polished to a degree by the PC, but the development team always has the final say in what they choose to consider from our overall input. It's not like we say "crit changes are a bad idea" and the team instantly changes tack on their proposal.

Personally, I love seeing giant crits floating over enemy heads.

I believe that there's an overall plan for the future that we may not be privy to. I don't think the team would propose such sweeping changes unless it's better for the overall sustainability of the game. They make a living out of developing new content for DDO, so why would they sabotage their livelihood? How long can people keep claiming to faceroll EE end game before they get bored of it and look towards other forms of entertainment? The options are either to maintain the status quo and continue to inflate enemy hp, saves, damage, etc, or reduce player power and try a different approach.

[Holyavatar]

Paladins are not outperforming other classes using the same style by 40% dps. Not even within their own fighting styles. Stop saying that.

Right now rangers do more than double the amount of dps when two weapon fighting.

Barbarians, rogues and bards hell even fighters are doing more dps when two weapon fighting.

Barbarians and bards do more dps when single weapon fighting.

Barbarians do more dps when two handed fighting.


Or was that meant to be - 40 % ? Because right now it is.

Also stop including other styles to give you a reason to nerf the same build within the very same fighting styles.

I am not that stupid to not notice a drop in dps by 30% when testing my twf paladin on lammania. You can't trick me.

Meh,its 30-40% higher than pal's swf/thf...not other classess

[Thrudh]

I am really starting to be disturbed by the direction the game is going. I felt that previously, there was a realistic big-picture regarding the class passes and changes. Now it feels like that has all been thrown to the wind while the devs play whack-a-mole.

Very weird... I love the direction the game is going, and the proposed changes in this thread reinforce my feeling that there is a realistic big-picture regarding the class passes and changes.

The devs are doing a fantastic job.

[redoubt]

Ever asked yourself why the WL is perceived OP even by WL players? Ask your friends.

Ask them two questions. 1st - how good is raw damage output OP, compared to Cetus builds, Shirardi Sorc or TWF Trees? 2nd - is the free handed survivability boon (namely Shining Through) OP? Ask them if they actively use Shining Through? I bet the answer will be "Yes".

Warlock gets handed superior survivability on the silver plater. You may reach the same output for every other build simply by splashing 5 levels of Warlock. Now, the Warlock not only gets superior survivability, the Warlock also gets decent damage, at least until lv. 22 or lv. 23 in epics. Only then the Warlock starts to loose ground on other DPS builds.

Why nerf DPS then? The true culprit is Enlighted Spirit tier 5 enhancement Shining Through. Without that enhancement the Warlock still has some good DPS, but gets into the same glass cannon category as is Wiz or Sorc. And has the same end game problems.

Since some critiques said WL is massively OP in late heroics, I came up with the SP idea. True, the core Warlock class from pnp does not have SP costs for blasts. I am fine if the blasts stay free. But this does not go for Chain Blasts, Auras and the like that are not supported by the core pnp class in any way. And them costing SP would go a great lengths to make the WL to be perceived less OP as it is now. DPS on the WL is not the problem. It´s the fact that this DPS does not come at any costs to the WL.

I just got done with a warlock life up to 28.

YEs they are OP in heroic.

No, they are not OP in epic.

Shining through is not as good as you think. I had 2 paladin levels, 2 rogue levels and evasion. Even with that I was using a lot of cocoon and lay on hands (even twisted for regenerating loh.) If you sit back, then sure all of this will probably feel overpowered. So try going in first on EE at level and getting agro of multiple mobs. You will quickly see that you have to be on top of your game to live through that. Its not an easy button if you play the hardest content without a tank.

[Thrudh]

There will always be certain power builds and combinations that will be strong. That is pretty much the purpose of multiclassing - finding the perfect combination of class levels and everything else so that you maximize your power and minimize what you give up. If someone finds a way to do that and it's awesome, great. Why do we need to change the entire game to "address" those builds? Because sure as shootin' after your changes, the next min-max build will pop up. Because that's what players do. So, will you then make more changes to "address" that too? And the cycle continues until what was DDO isn't even recognizable anymore? To gain nothing, because there are still power builds? I don't understand what you are hoping to accomplish here.

They don't have a problem with people building min-max builds... The mechanics got out of whack, so they are ratcheting them back... No one was supposed to be critting on a 9-20, or even a 11-20, so they are fixing that, along with other things (like barbs self-healing better than classes with heal spells).

Fixing those very large imbalances doesn't mean they will be forced to make another pass and another pass after that to kill the next min-max builds. Why do you think that?

[redoubt]

1% are players that are actually impacted by the changes because they are hardcore players that have put in the effort make their toons the best that they can be..
they spend money to get every advantage, like tomes, store pots, run all the endgame content excessively to get every twinked item, they care about what happens in the game because they are invested.
as a result they tend to be passionate and vocal on the forums.

99% are players that haven't got that far so it doesn't matter what happens, they wouldn't notice the changes anyway.
Not really invested, don't really care enough about the game to go to the forums, bounce around various games without any real care as to what happens to the game.

This is a good point.

I've been playing a console FPS MMO on the side for the last month and a half. I've finished the story and am growing bored with it. There are a few easy things they could do to fix it, but I'm not invested so I'm just going to quit playing it rather than put in the massive amount of energy it takes to get devs to listen to forum posts. As part of the 99% in that game I will simply disappear without comment.

[redoubt]

That's not true. From what I can tell the devs have already backed off on restricting holy sword to melee and i think I heard them they say they're going to change the improved critical changes so they don't hurt swashbuckler bards, kukri assassins. ( and hopefully wolf druids )

Many of us are still trying to convince them that the PRR, MRR armor loss is too severe and actually ends up nerfing the weaker builds harder than the stronger ones.

As long as it's on lama it can be changed and I recall them some final tweaks to warlocks right before going into the main servers.

Lama is down so we cannot test or give feedback.

Look at history of time from lama to live.... this is going in PATCH 28.1. I would not be surprised to see the lama version hit live this coming week. I think sev might have even said that the reversal to holy sword on bows might not make the patch, but its late and I might be hallucinating that one.

Also, it appears they backed off on ranged for lore reasons. That is the longbow being a silver flame favored weapon. Rather than code it so it only worked for that, they made it universal again. Now, if they are going to give it to longbow for the silver flame, then I think making it universal was a good idea. Why? Because all ranged paladins would just swap to silver flame. Lore doesn't matter in this game and Unyielding Soverignty is worth way less than HS on your bow.

[Powerhungry]

With the proposed changes to keen it will break Oathblade www.ddowiki.com/page/Oathblade.
That weapon was DESIGNED to have both an expanded crit range AND keen. That is what makes it so special. You already nerfed it once when vorpal was ruined. Please don't ruin the weapon further by altering the original designers intent of having an expaned/keened crit profile (even if it has to be special coded to allow it).

[Urjak]

*snip*

Manyshot
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 20 seconds you add your (base attack bonus * 4) to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. This ability puts Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 2 minutes.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

Ten Thousand Stars
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 30 seconds you add your Wisdom ability score to your Ranged Power and you add your monk level * 5 to your Doubleshot. This ability puts Manyshot on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 1 minute.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)


I think this change for 10k Stars is terrible. Since additional monk levels will grant so much (6 monk levels: ca. +25 RP, +15 Doubleshot, 20 monk levels: ca +25 RP, +50 Doubleshot), I predict the following effect on build styles that use 10k Stars now:
1.) Shuriken Throwers:
They already need at least 3 monk for Ninja Training II, thus no other capstone than monk ones can be taken in any case. I don't really see any multi-classing options that can really concur with +25 RP, +50 Doubleshot, +2 Crit Range (vs. only +1 from Halfling in other builds). The only thing that would provide a similar amount of Doubleshot would be Killer, but that one is soloing-only as it requires you to always land the killing blow (or shot^^). So, if you don't only want to build for soloing, but also for endgame raiding and questing (Reaper?), there seems to be no real competition for plain and simple 20 monk build (aka pure = boring, multi-classing should always outperform pure as it requires far more character building knowledge). (Additionally, Killer doesn't really help in most boss fights ...)

2.) Bow Users:
I kinda only see one viable build:
Elf, monk 20:
Gets the best out of everything:
.) Full Arcane Archer tree including capstone
.) Max benefit from 10k Stars
Only thing it looses out on are the goodies from dws:
Vs. Elven monk 8, ranger 12: monk 20 gets +30 doubleshot, monk/ranger gets +1 crit range and while soloing +20 Doubleshot
Vs. ranger 20: monk20 gets +25 RP, +50 Doubleshot, ranger 20 gets +1 Crit Range and while soloing +20 Doubleshot
Conclusion: While soloing monk 20 should be at similar power level as monk/ranger, in groups monk 20 will win. Ranger 20 will be useless for Arcane Archers


Pulverizer (Legendary Dreadnought)
The bonus to critical threat range for bludgeoning weapons is now an Insight bonus.

That's actually great and long overdue!


Improved Critical
These feats now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

Keen
This loot effect now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.


I don't think this is such a good idea unless enhancement get modified the same way: <Insert endless list of crit-range modifying enhancements and ED abilities>



*snip* long list of fighter feats *snip*


Generally, I love the idea of new feats ... but:
.) Straight PRR/MRR and Tactics DC bonuses seem a little ... "uncreative" ... would have far more loved more creative stuff (check up all the D&D3.5 books for inspiration)
.) +20 Tactics DC available only to fighters? Seems a little unbalancing ... Tactics DCs should be higher for all classes ... THEN give fighters some additional advantage. Aka fighters should be best when it comes to tripping, sundering and stunning (with stunning blow), but other classes should be able to use them as well (currently afaik noone can get high enough dcs (except Stunning Fist which is a completely different cup of tea, as monk-only).

/rant on
All-in-all I kinda seem to see a certain theme here: "Let's get rid of multi-class characters and more complicated builds. They mess up all our nice and tidy charts about character power levels and make it too hard on us to balance everything out."
Newsflash: Multi-classing is probably THE most awesome feature of DDO. If you nerf multi-classing into oblivion so that everyone more-or-less has to go pure, you will remove the most iconic feature of DDO. Don't do that to a game that is already very low on player population. Stop on that road of turning DDO in a bad WoW clone. DDO is and should be different, as in a direct battle it can only loose (sorry). DDO classes should be different, multi-classing should provide benefits. Quests should also require more versatility again. Balance should not mean that every freaking class in the game can do the same stuff (just in slight graphical variations). Spells, especially from non-primary casters should be far more important again. Traps should be deadly. Abilities that are basically useless now should be useful (Animal Empathy anyone? -.-). THEN you could achieve actual balance => Do I go straight DPS at the cost of being squishy? => Rogue, do I want to go straight DPS but loose out on self-healing => Barb, do I want to be uber CCer? => Bard or Wizard, ... and finally: do I want to have a mixture => go multi-class. As long as the only important stats are DPS, PRR, self-healing and HP, interesting balance will not be possible.
/rant off

[Bloodskittle]

Given that most other classes that have received a pass have critical enhancements that do similar things to holy sword, and the fact that holy sword requires 14 levels of paladin, I really don't see how nerfing it is necessary, Barbarian has similar crit buffs, as does Ranger, swashbucklers do too...

Taking Holy Sword away from bows limits players ability to hybrid (melee/manyshot) which is a very fun play style. The 14/6 Paladin/Monk build that the bow nerf is directed at is getting nerfed sufficiently with the manyshot/10k nerf in my opinion the build will lose most of its power just from manyshot being changed, don't completely ruin it for the hold outs. I know you discussed at least leaving the Longbow available to followers of the silver flame, for Lore reasons this makes a whole lot of sense and Archer paladins really won't be that strong any more anyway.

[Nascoe]

You quoted my entire post, yet only respond to one item? Bleh. But here's where my question is coming from:

"Divine Grace (Paladin)
Divine Grace now provides a maximum bonus equal to 2 + (Paladin level x 3).
"

That seems to imply it's based on paladin levels rather than charisma. Can you quote a dev post proving otherwise?

The change they introduce now puts a CAP on the maxium benefit you can get. For a Lvl 20 Paladin its 2+3*20 = 62 (Which would cap out at 134 CHA). If you have say 15 levels of paladin you would be capped at 2+15*3=47 CHA bonus to saves, meaning you do not get any extra from CHA higher than 104. And with 3 Paladin levels you can benefit from Divine grace for a maximum of 2+3*3=11 CHA bonus, which you would get for a CHA of at least 32.

This change puts a limit based on Paladin levels taken for where Divine grace caps out. But just as you actually need to get your CHA up to get the save bonus until now on live, you will still need to build for that CHA after the change.

[EllisDee37]

~ The changes to Improved Critical do mess up the balance for Assassins between kukri and daggers, and for Swashbucklers who can take enhancements to normalize weapon types. We are going to implement additional changes so that characters who have the Improved Critical feat will gain extra threat range for under performing weapons to maintain the weapon balance you have live using these builds.Keep in mind that if you require the feat, keen weapons stop working for such classes, which continues the same issue.

Keen is supposed to be a legitimate alternative to taking the feat, but it sounds like the feat will be strictly required for knife builds and any swashbuckler who doesn't use rapiers, even if the only weapons they use are keen/impact.

Also a reminder that staff builds should be added to the list of assassin and swashbuckler as one of the weapon styles that was designed and balanced around the way IC and Impact works with staff specialization. Staff builds are not OP and do not need to be nerfed, but based on everything you guys have said so far staff builds will be getting heavily nerfed.

And finally, don't nerf Carnifex. It's an iconic named item that should stay the same 17-20x3 it's been for years and years.

[Arlathen]

Ok, my turn for feedback. I'm doing this from the perspective of running the following characters:

1. Half-Elf Favoured Soul 17 / Fighter 3 - Melee/Crowd Control Hybrid (DC)
2. Half-Elf Ranger 20 - Tempest Melee dedicated (LD)
3. Elf Paladin 20 - Vanguard SnB Dedicated (LD)
4. Sun Elf Paladin 20 - Maul THF Specialist (LD)



Holy Sword (Paladin)
This is now a spell that affects the paladin and buffs whatever melee weapon is being wielded in the main hand.
It no longer can be used to buff off hand weapons or shields.

I don't think this is a huge nerf (yes it means TWF Paladins won't be as nearly popular), but it does characterise Paladins more towards Vanguard and THF. This is not a huge problem for me. I do think you should restore Holy Sword to Shields, however, since Vanguard is such a characterful and thematic Paladin approach to combat.




Blood Strength (Barbarian Ravager)
The portion of this enhancement that heals the user when they kill an opponent now has a 1 second internal cooldown.

Fine with this, it's a little overpowered at present.




Critical Rage (Barbarian Ravager)
The bonus to critical threat range is now a competence bonus.

Fine with this, brings it inline with other Critical bonuses.




Two weapon fighting animations have been fixed so there is no longer a weird jump on the fourth animation. This has made the fourth attack slightly quicker.
Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Improved Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Greater Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.

Fine with this, minor trade off if anything.




Doubleshot values over 100% now have a chance of producing a third attack. The chance is equal to the amount the value exceeds 100. A doubleshot value of 130, for example, would always produce one extra shot and have a 30% chance to produce a third shot. (Doublestrike will still cap at 100 for technical reasons.)

Much needed improvement. Doubleshot has such little value in this game at present.




Repeating Crossbows and Doubleshot
Fixed a bug where Doubleshot was not being reduced for repeating crossbows. (Doubleshot chance is divided by 3 for repeating crossbows.)

Bug fixes are always good.




Manyshot
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 20 seconds you add your (base attack bonus * 4) to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. This ability puts Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 2 minutes.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

Ten Thousand Stars
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 30 seconds you add your Wisdom ability score to your Ranged Power and you add your monk level * 5 to your Doubleshot. This ability puts Manyshot on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 1 minute.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

I don't have a problem with this in its design, or its intended goal, but as I stated in the AA thread this approach doesn't fix the issue that taking Monk levels on an Archer build is almost a requirement, because of the huge amount of additional Rate of Fire that 10K Stars gives alongside its workable cooldown.

You've said you don't like the idea of taking 'having' to take 14 Paladin on an Archer build because Holy Sword is that good, but from my point of view 6 Monk is the real requirement, because Critical threat and Multiplier bonuses are now available elsewhere. With AA being available through Racial enhancements, there's plenty of Doubleshot available to both the Monk-based and Non-Monk versions of a Archer.

However, a Half-Elf or Elf 12 Monk / 6 Ranger / 2 w/e build would gain ((60/120)*60)= +30% Doubleshot bonus averaged over 2 minutes (not to mention a sizable increase in Ranged power with a 50% uptime).

What is being done to address this?




Mechanical Reloader (Rogue Mechanic)
The alacrity for non-repeating crossbows is now 30%. (Was 40%)

That's fine, Mechanics are well overpowered for the fact they work 100% at Range and don't have as much Risk as a Melee.




Pulverizer (Legendary Dreadnought)
The bonus to critical threat range for bludgeoning weapons is now an Insight bonus.

Fine with this, although I'm betting Quarterstaff users are feeling that Legendary Dreadnought will be the 'Go To' destiny of choice now.



Improved Critical
These feats now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

Knew something like this was coming, so lets get it over and done with.



Keen
This loot effect now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

Make sense with the feat change. I assume this means Impact will be changed as well?




Armor Changes
The amount of Physical Resist Rating that armor provides has been changed.
* Heavy armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 2) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Medium armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1.5) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Light Armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
Fixed a bug where players were getting Physical Resist Rating for armor with which they were not proficient.

(Note: The Physical Resist Rating and Magical Resist Rating offered by shields remain unchanged.)

Really?! I can understand the change to PRR, and that's fair enough, but to eliminate MRR from Armour completely I think is a mistake.

In terms of my own characters, I will most likely start building for Evasion again, particularly my THF Paladin and my Favoured Soul will likely be simply TR'd into an Evasion based Melee character. My Vanguard could also take a two Monk splash and swap to Light Armour / Light Shields for Evasion, and especially since this would give him two key feats in an otherwise feat-limited setup.

I really feel this is back pedlling on Armour Up and the push to make armour relevant again, a step backwards if you like.




As a result of dialing back armor, some fighter only feats that will boost their effectiveness with armor and add to tactical DCs will also be included.

Tactical Training
Requires Fighter Level 4
You gain +2 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 8
You gain +4 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Mastery
Requires Fighter Level 12
You gain +6 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Supremacy
Requires Fighter Level 16
You gain +8 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Notes: All tactical feats stack for a total of +20. The lower level feats are not prerequisites for the higher level feats so a higher level fighter could save a feat if he/she wanted to skip Tactical Training and forego the +2 but still have access to Tatical Supremacy.

Fighters do need this, they do need something to set them apart from just being another Uber Melee DPS toon (although they should be inline with Barbarians for DPS).

If the goal is 95% chance in EE to use Combat Tactics on Fighters, then yeah go for it.




Heavy Armor Training
Requires Fighter Level 2
You gain +3 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 6
You gain +6 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Master
Requires Fighter Level 10
You gain +9 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Champion
Requires Fighter Level 14
You gain +12 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Notes: All Heavy Armor feats stack for a total of +30. The lower level feats are not prerequisites for the higher level feats so a higher level fighter could save a feat if he/she wanted to skip Heavy Armor Training and forego the +3 and still have access to Heavy Armor Champion.

These *all* would be required feats for me on a Fighter build, and I feel its a bit of a slap in the face for other natural Heavy Armour wearers - Paladins & Clerics. Especially Clerics.

You'd be mad to ignore 30 PRR & 30 MRR on a Fighter for the sake of a few bonus feats.




Divine Grace (Paladin)
Divine Grace now provides a maximum bonus equal to 2 + (Paladin level x 3).

Another one that's been on the card for some time, again lets just get it done.



Eldritch Blast and other enhancements (Warlock)
The spellpower scaling for Eldritch Blast and several enhancements has been reduced.
~snip~

The power of Warlock is a little out of whack, but I'm sure those people who paid for and play Warlocks may be feeling a little cheated now.

There you go.

[Nascoe]

First of all, let me say that "balancing" the game by taking some of the power creep out is needed to keep the game fun to play in the long term. As such its a positive that the Devs have realised such and want to act on it, because that shows they too see some longer term perspective for the game.

I doubt anyone who has seen the recently upgraded classes discussions on the general forums and on Lamannia can be surprised that the changes to Bard, Paladin and Barbarian especially and to an extent to Rogue mechanics as well as the new class of Warlock have aspects that worked out giving them too much advantage in many situations. As such it makes sense to look at those classes and take them down a notch (or two) instead of just upping the power of all other classes by as much and making it far too easy to feel like a god-build when playing.

As for the changes proposed, I think the issues with most of them have been raised, I think many of them would need even more testing and back and forth between devs and players testing, but it does seem that in the limited time allowed on Lamannia players have been able to correct some issues by giving good good feedback (TWF changes to animiations etc and Paladin getting back ranged working with the HS spell, Devs going to look at solution for Bard and Assasin making "bad" weapons work decently from crit-range boosts).

I fear that S&B paladins will be hurt a bit too much (they can hardly be said to have been OP now IMO), and I do fear that Armor will be on the decline again (yes, fixing non-proficiency was needed, but taking mrr all out?), especially I am not sure why one would even want to use medium armor. I am also unhappy for how the change will work for any staff-builds so far. And will Warlock still be worth its money, not sure from what I saw on Lammania.

So yes, a change was needed. I am glad you put it out to the world up front that the changes are up, and changed some of it based on feedback. Please give it a bit more time with another couple of days of Lammania and feedback thoug, this influences quite a few players and if the feedback is good, it might help long term development by better understanding of the game and how players go about it.

[Robai]

What is so special about Drow weapons?
I mean Drow Quarterstaff (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Drow_Quarterstaff_of_the_Weapon_Master), Drow Rapier (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Drow_Rapier_of_the_Weapon_Master), Drow Khopesh (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Drow_Khopesh_of_the_Weapon_Master), etc.
The main bonus on them is the increased crit range, and this was so special, because IC feat doubled it.
This balance pass will nerf those weapons hard (also other special weapons with increased crit range).

The correct way to nerf IC feat is this:

Double the base crit range (as the proposed balance pass does).
If some special weapons have increased base crit range then still double it (the proposed balance pass doesn't do that).
Do not double any other bonuses, that is the bonuses from Enhancements, bonuses from EDs, the bonus from Holy Sword, etc. should not be doubled.

This way special named items would not be nerfed, i.e. only the feat would be nerfed.

I agree that currently IC feat does the job too well, but I STRONGLY disagree about nerfing the special items, for which we've spent a lot of time farming.
Please, if you going to fix it then do it the right way, without messing up other things.
If there are some technical difficulties then just don't nerf IC feat for now (until you find a way to do it the correct way).

EDIT.
Note that the proposed balance pass also doubles base crit range (ex, for mauls 19-20 instead of 20-20, for rapiers 15-20 instead of 18-20, etc.), but it doesn't increase range bonus on the special items (i.e. exactly this part is a nerf of such items)


Keep in mind that if you require the feat, keen weapons stop working for such classes, which continues the same issue.

Keen is supposed to be a legitimate alternative to taking the feat, but it sounds like the feat will be strictly required for knife builds and any swashbuckler who doesn't use rapiers, even if the only weapons they use are keen/impact.

Also a reminder that staff builds should be added to the list of assassin and swashbuckler as one of the weapon styles that was designed and balanced around the way IC and Impact works with staff specialization. Staff builds are not OP and do not need to be nerfed, but based on everything you guys have said so far staff builds will be getting heavily nerfed.

And finally, don't nerf Carnifex. It's an iconic named item that should stay the same 17-20x3 it's been for years and years.
Very good points!
If they nerf IC feat the correct way (as described above) then Carnifex (http://ddowiki.com/page/Carnifex) would remain untouched. I mean Keen should also be nerfed the correct way, in fact, it should do what the description of it says, so that it should double only the base crit range (some special weapons have expanded base crit range), other bonuses to crit range should not be doubled:

http://ddowiki.com/images/Carnifex.png

[ghtzxc]

Ok, lets stick to your pnp even when ddo =/= pnp.

Tell me where rangers get all this in pnp and i will shut up.

1. Paladin has divine might but rangers have know the angels from harper enhancement tree which adds half your int mod to damage and tactics.

2. Self healing in ddo is hardly a problem anymore with epic destinies. Also a ranger gets cure light/moderate/serious wounds from ranger spells.
They also get freedom of movement...

3. Paladin get light damage core but rangers get a lot sneack attack dice from deepwood stalker.

1. Divine Might vs Know the Angles

So it seems like things are equal here. Although INT mod directly to damage benefits KtA users more than CHA mod to STR due to the half attribute damage for offhand, CHA for paladins also give Turn Undeads and saves through Divine Grace.

2. Self-healing + ranger's FoM

Seems like paladins come out ahead here actually. Yes rangers do get this, paladins too, so do bladeforged with reconstruct SLA, Robot wiz/sorc with repair spells, bards with cure spells. The Paladin KotC tree does offer a good amount of Healing Amplification that you wouldn't find with repair abilities (very little) nor in bard/ranger trees so it seems like paladins have the advantage here.
FoM is a useful spell, so is deathward which paladins get, but rangers do not. I don't think it was the developers' intention that all classes had access to all buffs so it's not unreasonable that some classes get spells that other classes don't.

3. Paladin light procs vs Ranger sneak attack.

Seems pretty even too.

As for the rest:

Total gain for rangers compared to paladins :

Fortification bypass : 10(Advanced Sneak Attack) + 10 (Mark of the Hunted) + 25%(Mark of the Hunted) = 45% more than paladins.

Doublestrike : Dervish (25%) offhand + 10% offhand (whirlwind) + 5% mainhand (whirlwind) = 40% - 10 % zeal paladin spell = 30% more than paladins.

Oh yea paladins will loose on exalted smite/divine sacrifice if they choose to take killer from deepwood stalker. While rangers keep exposing strike.

So another +20% doublestrike for a total of 30% + 20 % = 50 % more than pali

+5 Incorporeality (stacking) (whirlwind) + deflect arrows every 2 sec.

Oh, yes especially this too. For rangers off hand weapons are affected by +1 critical threat range and +1 critical multiplier which translates to ~ 26 % dps.

"Fortification Bypass"

True yes, but I don't see how the balance update nerfs or affects this other than empowering those with less fortification bypass (paladins) slightly due to the less crits everyone will be getting post-balance.

"Double Strike"

Right again, but none of this is changed by the balance update. (Technically, Whirlwind gives +10% offhand proc chance, not +10% offhand doublestrike, though effectively I see your point.) It's still not any different post-balance update though.

"Oh yea paladins will loose on exalted smite/divine sacrifice if they choose to take killer from deepwood stalker. While rangers keep exposing strike."

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Killer is a t4 enhancement from DWS and so if you're talking about multiclassing I don't see why you couldn't get both Exalted Smite + Divine Sacrifice as well as Killer. If you were a multiclass with 6 ranger you could get Exposing Strike as well. Since we were talking about capstones earlier, how about we stick with the pure class for discussion's sake?

"+5 Incorporeality (stacking) (whirlwind) + deflect arrows every 2 sec"

These are both available already and not affected directly by the balance update either.

"For rangers off hand weapons are affected by +1 critical threat range and +1 critical multiplier which translates to ~ 26 % dps"

While I might agree that HS nerf to not affect the offhand might be excessive, I find it hard to believe that over a quarter of your DPS comes from a +1 critical multiplier and +1 critical threat range from roughly half your attacks due to it being only on your offhand. (Actually even less that half since double strike applies to main hand and sources of *offhand* double strike are significantly rarer for paladins (only 10% from Perfect TWF)).

Perhaps we could have a look at how you calculated that +1 crit multiplier threat on just the offhand is responsible for 26% of your dps? I'm getting more like ~9.5% TOTAL dps loss from the IC nerf and the HS offhand nerf, with the IC nerf being responsible for about ~6.5% of that dps loss and the +1 crit range and multiplier on the offhand only responsible for ~3% of that dps loss. This is in LD. 3% is no where near 26%.

It seems more like you're just comparing paladins vs rangers in general and I certainly don't have a problem with it but I really do think you'll be happier with paladin if you took a more comprehensive and apples-to-apples comparison. You're highlighting many advantages of ranger such as double strike but I think it's unfair to leave out the advantages of paladin when you're making your DPS conclusions, Divine Sacrifice/Exalted Smite, free Cleaves that are more powerful than the feats, superior healing amplification, and scaling light damage procs. (You mention them at the top of your post but later on you only say what ranger brings to the table with the cores but don't say anything about paladin).

I'm not sure why you're so fixated on rangers but I think "this other class has this, I want it too" is a rather poor argument given that almost everything you mentioned about rangers vs paladins was not even changed in the Balance Update (the ranger cores you mentioned weren't touched in the release notes). The ONLY thing that nerfs paladins specifically from this update is the holy sword off hand nerf which you claim is 26% of your DPS. Do you have any calculations/tests to back this up?

[karatemack]

Hearts of Wood

Given the scope of the changes being implemented, many of my secondary and tertiary toons will require a serious makeover. Given that most of my playtime goes to my main, these toons will more than likely not be seeing another past life any time soon. Certainly I can adapt to the changes and rebuild the toons. That, however, does nothing to account for the time already invested in making these toons in the first place. Hopefully this is already part of the plan.


Stones

Sometimes we all invest time and energy in a toon which ends up being something we'd rather not play. Or sometimes changes to the game cause certain builds to be less appealing, leaving those old toons to sit around and collect dust. Why not allow players to repurpose their toons? Allow players to trade their old, unwanted toons for stones of experience. Put the option in the reincarnation grove to "reinvest" their life force energy. The player would, as a part of the process, choose which remaining toon would receive the stones (limited to the toons on the same account). They would receive 1 stone of heroic xp per heroic PL on the toon and 1 stone of epic xp if the toon is level 28 (or whatever the current epic cap is). If the toon is iconic then it must be ML 28 to undergo the process (no power-leveling from 15 to 20 for a quick xp stone). The player has already invested the time to earn the experience in the first place so it isn't like they're getting something for nothing. It would allow players who have obsolete toons they don't feel like investing more time in to serve at least some purpose and would provide the devs another option to handing out +20 hearts every time they fundamentally change the way certain classes/builds play.

[Walking_Ride]

I expect a +20 heart so i can tr into a pure ranger or otherwise cancel my sub and quit the game.

[Elfishski]

Dear devs, first time I've felt compelled to post, but I want to put my view forth and say that YES, our characters need to be weaker!

The changes might seem shocking at first, but if you step back and look at them objectively these changes are rolling back a VERY small percentage of the huge power creep that has happened in the last year or so, power creep that frankly has made the game boring, the same way playing any game with all the god mode cheats turned on gets boring after 5 minutes. I still like killing a few kobolds to pass time, but there's no challenge in DDO right now for a multiple past-life character.

I used to have a lot of fun with raids and the harder quests in groups, feeling like there was a chance of failure and everybody needs to do their part, and the feeling of success at rescuing the group when things go south (or relief when someone else does the rescuing). But lately? Nobody is interested in strategy at all, and why would they be? It's just a DPS zerg to the finish even on EE raids [but nobody runs them because 50% chance of lagging out and a frustrating miserable experience; but that's a different matter]. Playing a barbarian at level 28 recently made me really hate the game and almost give up on it entirely, it was so boring just killing everything in a hit or two on EE without being remotely careful.

To get a challenge for a multiple-past life character, the ONLY option is really to find the weakest class that hasn't been buffed yet, find the hardest handful of heroic quests and do them at the minimum allowed level for entry solo, and do EE quests solo at or below level. Anything else and you might as well close your eyes. I also still have a lot of fun playing with a friend with our two characters who have no epic destinies filled and doing epic elite. Playing a first life character is another good option, but... I have all that time invested in my main character.

To say that barbarians/paladins/bards/warlocks/anything else will be made "unviable" by these changes is frankly absurd, it just means you might have to turn auto-run off while you cleave through the hardest EE content.

So again, thank you. More reductions in character power please, AND Reaper difficulty!

(aka Nistafa on Khyber)

[slarden]

1. Divine Might vs Know the Angles
So it seems like things are equal here. Although INT mod directly to damage benefits KtA users more than CHA mod to STR due to the half attribute damage for offhand, CHA for paladins also give Turn Undeads and saves through Divine Grace.



Paladins can take both divine might and kta unless that changed very recently.

[slarden]

There is no need to beat around any bushes.

Dps right now is high enough to where they cannot easily increase power without making a new system.

More systems add more values to combat that are unique and introduce lag in the long run (see procs on hit and abilities in play).

Changing IC and Keen, Many Shot and 10k, as well as holy sword reins the largest bulk of rampant combat beasts in. DPS will be down, sure. But this fixed system allows more growth that is controlled and can float (meaning abilities, feats, enhancements, or on items, heck can even tome it to be a character buff), scale ins a linear fashion, and rise to the endgame tiers that aren't made yet.

I mean, the devs pretty much have said all of this. And as suck as it is right now, you won't die any faster, we as players can adapt to the difficulty of the game, and things will evolve upward to where it is today, but across a larger spectrum of builds.

They are basically undoing much of what they did the past year. To top it off they aren't even getting it right.

They don't even seem to understand the most basic of facts like Warlock is severely over-powered at heroic levels but can't match a barbarian or tempest dps at 28. So how do they fix this? A blanket 15-17% warlock dps reduction across the board except Sev's tier 5 which was already the best warlock burst dps.

They are showing no concern at all for player time investment. Where is our thunderforged weapon exchange so we don't have to farm all over again if we want to change from a twf paladin to a thf paladin? I am not sure I want to play a warlock after 2 big nerfs - why can't I exchange my weapon for a melee weapon so I can play a better build?

[unbongwah]

Paladins can take both divine might and kta unless that changed very recently.
Turbine confirmed a long time ago that DM and KtA are meant to be anti-requisites; so even if it still hasn't been fixed yet, don't count on it indefinitely...

I think my ultimate problem with balance changes is the targeting. By targeting base melee power, crit, and MRR, you are hitting classes without boosts to these properties the hardest, such as Monks, Clerics, FVS, Druids, EKs, and Artis.
Pretty much this. If you think barbs are too strong, nerf the barb PrEs. If you think pallies are too strong, nerf Holy Sword and/or KotC.

But by nerfing generic crit range bonuses - in particular, how the bonuses stack - you're also nerfing the underpowered classes who relied upon them to boost their DPS. That's...not necessarily a great way to achieve better game balance. :(

[karatemack]

I think my ultimate problem with balance changes is the targeting.

The first problem is that the dev team are trying to add another floor to a building with an unsure foundation.

Enhancement trees.... still not finished. Should have been finished before level cap was increased and EDs were introduced. How can you ever hope to balance the game if every time you start working through one aspect of character customization you get distracted by yet another white rabbit? Give all of the classes a pass and then go back and tweak. It reminds me of the time I was really excited for the GH pass... until the next update dropped and random trash loot replaced all the raid gear.

The second problem is that one of the best aspects of DDO, rich character customization, is often seen as a fatal flaw.

When you start changing the game so that the current power build(s) are nerfed, you do not make all builds equal... all you do is shift what constitutes the current power build(s). Between race choice, stat allocation, feat choices, enhancement choices, gear and playstyle (not to mention the ability to multi-class)... do you really expect to be able to "balance" out character creation so that no matter what choices you make they're all around the same "power"? Why would you want to? Death penalties only affecting the character who died, as well as the bonus xp based upon group size, have done more to encourage group play than any nerf ever has. A lot of the quests in the Necropolis were designed with group play in mind as well. If you really want people to group rather than roll through content solo, then design the quests so that they have to. It makes no sense, however, to try to maintain solo-able quests while at the same time attempting to design classes in ways which force players to group. Here's an idea... give mobs new abilities to trip/stun/paralyze/hold/stone/etc. single targets. CC is just as effective on player parties as it is on trash mobs.

The third problem is that the build-of-the-month gets all the attention.

Have you ever tried to build an effective warchanter? There's a reason many clerics are running around as trees. It only took what... three or four years of complaining until there was loot added with turning spec'd clerics/pallys in mind. Oh wait, good luck since most undead things are warded against turning in EE. Making mobs immune to abilities (IE: turning) for which players must make a large investment (past lives, stat adjustments, gear, feats, enhancements, fate slots) isn't "balance"... it's frustrating. Why is monk damage left on the back burner while you make adjustments to power down other classes? Wouldn't it make more sense to raise EVERY class to the baseline you've established first and then scale back where you need to? You would probably have a much better idea how those changes would affect the game overall if it were more balanced before you "tweak".

[tsteigner]

Dear devs, first time I've felt compelled to post, but I want to put my view forth and say that YES, our characters need to be weaker!

The changes might seem shocking at first, but if you step back and look at them objectively these changes are rolling back a VERY small percentage of the huge power creep that has happened in the last year or so, power creep that frankly has made the game boring, the same way playing any game with all the god mode cheats turned on gets boring after 5 minutes. I still like killing a few kobolds to pass time, but there's no challenge in DDO right now for a multiple past-life character.

I used to have a lot of fun with raids and the harder quests in groups, feeling like there was a chance of failure and everybody needs to do their part, and the feeling of success at rescuing the group when things go south (or relief when someone else does the rescuing). But lately? Nobody is interested in strategy at all, and why would they be? It's just a DPS zerg to the finish even on EE raids [but nobody runs them because 50% chance of lagging out and a frustrating miserable experience; but that's a different matter]. Playing a barbarian at level 28 recently made me really hate the game and almost give up on it entirely, it was so boring just killing everything in a hit or two on EE without being remotely careful.

To get a challenge for a multiple-past life character, the ONLY option is really to find the weakest class that hasn't been buffed yet, find the hardest handful of heroic quests and do them at the minimum allowed level for entry solo, and do EE quests solo at or below level. Anything else and you might as well close your eyes. I also still have a lot of fun playing with a friend with our two characters who have no epic destinies filled and doing epic elite. Playing a first life character is another good option, but... I have all that time invested in my main character.

To say that barbarians/paladins/bards/warlocks/anything else will be made "unviable" by these changes is frankly absurd, it just means you might have to turn auto-run off while you cleave through the hardest EE content.

So again, thank you. More reductions in character power please, AND Reaper difficulty!

(aka Nistafa on Khyber)

its some kind of funny, that only players that just joined and / or never have been posted are totally in agree of these changes that destroy pretty much any new player that would be thinking about trying ddo (and no, i'm not a new player ...., but i happen to think a bit further then this "player" i quoted). If you really play this game, which i highly doubt, try doing quests without your best gear + raidgear and try without having 3x completionist then maybe you will notice that it's by far soo easy you try to get others to think it is.

Rather then nerfing everythin to the ground and robbing new blood the fun and it the long run pushing them away, just because of a handful guys / gals that "need" a challenge give them a new setting (Reaper ?) where no enhancements work, no PL, no ship buffs and no raid gear, so they can have their challenge.

If you are geared out in the best raid gear that's available and your having a challenge on Elite, then the gear that drops in raids isn't doing its job tbh

[1Soulless1]

~ so much great truth~.

If we thought we would have a chance to change their minds I would say listen to this person devs, but we don't. There are a lot of great idea's in this thread Sev. I wish you would listen and reconsider Robert.

[Lopnel]

Greetings.

We've seen a lot of community feedback, both public and private, about our ongoing plans for balance. These are some changes we are considering to increase game balance.

As with any post that outlines power reductions (aka nerfs) I am sure there will be a lot of players looking for explanations and our thoughts and results on balance that led to these changes. I will be following up this post with more details that talk about why some of these changes are being implemented.

As a result of dialing back armor, some fighter only feats that will boost their effectiveness with armor and add to tactical DCs will also be included.

Tactical Training
Requires Fighter Level 4
You gain +2 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 8
You gain +4 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Mastery
Requires Fighter Level 12
You gain +6 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Supremacy
Requires Fighter Level 16
You gain +8 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Notes: All tactical feats stack for a total of +20. The lower level feats are not prerequisites for the higher level feats so a higher level fighter could save a feat if he/she wanted to skip Tactical Training and forego the +2 but still have access to Tatical Supremacy.

Heavy Armor Training
Requires Fighter Level 2
You gain +3 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 6
You gain +6 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Master
Requires Fighter Level 10
You gain +9 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Champion
Requires Fighter Level 14
You gain +12 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Notes: All Heavy Armor feats stack for a total of +30. The lower level feats are not prerequisites for the higher level feats so a higher level fighter could save a feat if he/she wanted to skip Heavy Armor Training and forego the +3 and still have access to Heavy Armor Champion.


I will be following up this post with some details on our thoughts on balance and design.

Sev~



If this is all true then a lot of players of all ranges may choose to stop playing this game.

My main issue is the nerfing of armors requiring feats. If this should be true then more feats should be available while leveling up for all classes.
Personally I am a complete advocate for fighters and requiring 4 feats for heavy armor is absolutely ridiculous. There are barely enough feats available for good DPS that relatively pales to most other classes and having no evasion is a serious threat to the survivability of fighters in heavy armor/adamante body.
If you think of it; the armor you equip is a source of ABLATION to all incoming damage NATURALLY. Having to elect 4 feats for something you wear and POTENTIALLY will not stack due to game mechanics is completely absurd without adding potentially effective qualities other than MRR and PRR with the feat (adding dex cap, dodge bonus AND elemental absorptions could compensate for a great loss). I quite enjoy the way things are now since the PRR and MRR update is relative and realistic. SO WHY CHANGE WHAT WORKS? Front-line fighters as they are barely have the time and resources for survivability while providing decent DPS.

If this is an attempt to bring back healers then it is a poor one indeed. HEALERS WILL NOT HAVE THE TIME TO HEAL UP THOSE THAT DIE IN ONE SHOT.
Taking heavy armor as a feat is natural to fighters and should therefore be granted naturally with level progression. Otherwise there will be a lot of SQUISHY?!? FIGHTERS!? seriously we fighers die enough as it is in the front line AND not to be able to hold the line means a lot of player who enjoy this role may seriously consider other games outside of DDO. This game is all about timing and survivability and that is about to be taken away for all heavy armor front-liners.

You are considering turning trees into twigs in my personal opinion.
If this 4 feats required for front line tanks to survive does go through I hope it comes back your faces in both game bugs and lost players.
It appears as if the devs want to bring back healers and make ranged builds a main source. ALOT of front liners despise PEW PEW PEW.

As for the tactical feats. Yes this is a good addition in my personal opinion for feats.

[slarden]

Turbine confirmed a long time ago that DM and KtA are meant to be anti-requisites; so even if it still hasn't been fixed yet, don't count on it indefinitely...



Until they change it - it's still not an advantage for rangers.

[legendkilleroll]

:

Hit what needs to be hit. Holy Sword, doubleshot, DoD, divine grace, low tier sacred D, and warlock ES have-everything.
.

You forget to mention arguably the most broken, PA trees but as you love them its no surprise.

[Qhualor]

The population of Cannith on live right now, in order of popularity:

61 Palis
58 Warlocks
44 Rangers
37 Rogues
32 Wizzies
31 Monk
27 Arti
27 Fighter
27 Barb
25 Druid
21 Sorcs
19 Cleric
16 Bard
14 FVS

Total 412

If bard is baseline, why hit FVS and Cleric harder than warlock/pali/rangers with MRR, melee power, and crit changes? Warlock/pali/rangers are less effected since their trees and spells give these things. Hit what needs to be hit. Holy Sword, doubleshot, DoD, divine grace, low tier sacred D, and warlock ES have-everything.

That's feedback from 412 players all at once.

those numbers can easily be off if you consider that many players are focused on past lives. im currently doing my last warlock past life right now on my barb. one character will do a FVS past life before going back to ranger. one character is "done" sitting at level 20 as a warlock waiting to TR back into fighter. one character is a barb waiting his turn for 3x warlock lives before going back to fighter. its better to look at what classes players are playing at level 28 and not TRing/IRing anymore. impossible to do unless you actually talk to all of them.

[Grace_ana]

I'm playing a warlock through heroics right now to get my completionist back, and I can say that it is not any more overpowered than when I ran a sorc life and just chain lightning'd everything. It's actually pretty much exactly the same. And, as on my sorc life, I can already tell that it will not remotely be so strong in epics. Warlocks don't actually need to be nerfed. People whine that the warlocks kill everything before they get there, but the same people whine about all arcanes doing that. It's just right now their focus is warlock, and hardly anyone is running sorcs these days because of issues with mob saves in epics.

I'm still completely befuddled by the logic that TWF is "too strong" for pallies and barbs, so TWF itself is being nerfed. Why on earth would you nerf an entire fighting style, used by nearly every class in various builds, because it is "too strong" for two classes? I really, really want to hear an explanation for that one.

Removing MRR from armor does in fact put us pre-armor up. MRR is the replacement for evasion. PRR isn't a substitute. I can have all the PRR in the world and be one-shotted from a spell because I couldn't withstand it. There are more ways to avoid physical damage, including dodge, AC, blur, displacement, ghostly...so as a player, would I wear armor for the PRR and die constantly to spells, or would I wear pajamas and stack the other ways to avoid physical damage? I'll give you a hint, because this is my thread for hints: it's the pre-amor up choice.

The crit changes are seriously a mess. It's a big mess to fix another mess, when said original mess wasn't actually a huge mess. You don't want some weapons to have half their hits be crits? Fine, that's reasonable. So make small, targeted changes to fix that. Don't completely nerf all crits across the board, including named weapons people have farmed out (like pinion and TF) and weapons whose very point is a strong expanded crit range (like carnifex).

I would really like you guys to take a step back, stop nuking from orbit, finish the class passes, and then do TARGETED rebalancing if necessary. And if that means you hold off on level 30, I think that's best anyway. I don't even know why that is being pushed ahead in the middle of class passes, since it will also affect character power.

[IronClan]

Tired of this, tired of not knowing if it's safe to build a toon and finding out that despite having gotten their balance pass that no it was NOT safe to make several characters and invest time and money into them.

So guys when you're finished send me an email...

[karatemack]

Another thought... If we can't convince the dev team to leave improved critical alone... when they do make the change perhaps they could consolidate the improved critical and weapon focus feats? This way fighters can take weapon specialization right after taking IC. Especially considering the extra 4 feats they're proposing making necessary for MRR to matter. Of course, it would be even better if they left MRR on armor the way it is now, but still add in the new feats.

I also agree that the stated direction the dev team wants to take the game is for it to be "balanced" for veteran players with past lives, TR caches full of optimal gear, maxed EDs with filled fate slots, ships full of buffs and game knowledge which makes quests feel "easy". You want to make a "reaper" difficulty to make the game more challenging? Fine, make it so that when a player enters a quest on "reaper" difficulty the quest is the same as elite/epic elite but the players no longer benefit from EDs or enhancements. Also, improved drop chance is fine for higher difficulties, but hopefully you avoid making the highest difficulty the only way to get premium gear.

[midgetlady]

Pre-Eveningstar longbow builds have always lagged in DPS in this game. the alacrity is a joke, crit range has been awful, and the multiplier isn't even worth the effort to build one.

Then comes the slayer arrow changes and adrenaline and the lowest dps class now becomes viable. Fast forward to the AA changes that are being proposed (specifically to slayer arrows). Slayer arrows will no longer work as well with adrenaline and it cuts Ranged longbow dps in half.

Now you're wanting to nerf this even more by changing manyshot, 10k stars, and crit range. That's not balance. You're making builds that were able to actually support groups with ranged dps and have a spot on the kill count list, and putting them lower than twf kama builds.

Why are other versions of ranged builds being built up and longbow being torn down?

[noel.the.silent]

I think that it is quite simple.. If you make it impossible to play solo again just so you can sell your spirit cakes! Not only will I leave the came again I will not return!! Why are you not fixing things like lag??? I really think you should try playing the game before you make changes that you do not understand, why would i want to be forced to get feats so i can replace what you have removed??? Losing the very things that have added benefit to my build. You need to ask yourself DO I REALLY BELIEVE THAT THEY ARE STUPID ENOUGH THAT THEY WILL PAY ME $10 PER MONTH TO KEEP PLAYING THE GAME WHEN I TURN IT TO ****?????? Do you know how much time and effort some people have put into building their toons up?? NO! why would I change class or spend time, effort and money to rebuild a toon you trashed, just because some PVP'er is crying poor!! who really cares this is a game NOT base anyway on pvp, it is quest and raid based... I mean what about the Monk class?? this proves that you are full of it! totally full of it!! oh i get it your going to bring out a new race that is a natural monk with great race bonus at a cost!! then just like the warlock you will wait until you have sold heaps and the profit is gone NERF the **** out of it.

Yes I have not said anything really positive but then HAVE YOU?

GO play the game once you have gotten your Completionist I will have a little more respect for you! as by that time you will understand the game.

If you really want to improve the came put together a player advisory team made up of Completionist [I am not] they are who I go to to get a understanding of how things work! And remember IT is not PVP so why wreck everyone else fun because of it.

[Bloodskittle]

The population of Cannith on live right now, in order of popularity:

61 Palis
58 Warlocks
44 Rangers
37 Rogues
32 Wizzies
31 Monk
27 Arti
27 Fighter
27 Barb
25 Druid
21 Sorcs
19 Cleric
16 Bard
14 FVS

Total 412

If bard is baseline, why hit FVS and Cleric harder than warlock/pali/rangers with MRR, melee power, and crit changes? Warlock/pali/rangers are less effected since their trees and spells give these things. Hit what needs to be hit. Holy Sword, doubleshot, DoD, divine grace, low tier sacred D, and warlock ES have-everything.

That's feedback from 412 players all at once.
Speaking as one of those 412 players I would be Majorly *insert australian word*ed off if Dance of Death was nerfed, it actually makes twf fun to play in the high mob density quests that the end game has become. Holy sword doesn't need to be touched and its a little sad that they're ruining it, I'd prefer it of they just gave other classes similar options to crit profile as they have been doing.

[Rugrin]

So wit the new manyshot chanegs, Are the restriction's being lifted on the ability? or is it still tied to Long/Short Bow and Zen for 10k stars aswell. Also for people on Lami seince i dont have it downloaded, How are Throwers performing now? Becasue i was getting bored on my mech, I was considering trying 6 Monk / 13 Rogue / 1 Ranger with the new 10k Star Changes.

[eachna_gislin]

Manyshot
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 20 seconds you add your (base attack bonus * 4) to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. This ability puts Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 2 minutes.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

Ten Thousand Stars
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 30 seconds you add your Wisdom ability score to your Ranged Power and you add your monk level * 5 to your Doubleshot. This ability puts Manyshot on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 1 minute.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)



Why don't they have the same cooldown time, or why aren't they mutually exclusive? Or since only monks get 10k stars (while all archers take Many Shot) give 10k Stars the longer cooldown.

[slarden]

Adjust trees too after testing. I'm not partial I play everything. With 30 seconds just for spirit generation added to a bruntsmash test, I already know the result will be to buff trees. If they were really that powerful, you would see more of them. Clerics, monks, and FVS can be made into trees, but there are more paladins than monks, clerics, and FVS combined, so trees can't be that good. Even if my particular warlock-tree build is OP, it just points to warlock being OP, since no one plays Cleric or FVS trees. Pretty hard to argue against the entire player base distribution, when most players are veterans and know what's up.

And I did say hit ES-Warlocks, which is what I am playing in Draconic right now. I don't care.

The tree build is over-powered but not alot of people play it because of the lag in raids and also it's a power-gamer build that is too complex for the masses. It doesn't make it unpowerful.

Shiradi caster builds were very uncommon at a time when they were the most powerful build. They are probably more common now than they were during the brief time shiradi casters were top dog.

I am sure as you know, tree build strength is massive AOE damage not single target damage.

[slarden]

GO play the game once you have gotten your Completionist I will have a little more respect for you! as by that time you will understand the game.

If you really want to improve the came put together a player advisory team made up of Completionist [I am not] they are who I go to to get a understanding of how things work! And remember IT is not PVP so why wreck everyone else fun because of it.

In all truthfulness they need to nerf past lifes to about 1/3 the power they are today or possibly less. Until they do that we can never have true balance. 1/3 of the current power level may even be too much - it might need a bigger nerf.

Additionally, the significant power gap encourages building one super-character instead of playing alts which is why those people get bored so easily.

This is coming from someone that probably is in the top 100 for # of past lifes across characters in the game.

[Qhualor]

In all truthfulness they need to nerf past lifes to about 1/3 the power they are today or possibly less. Until they do that we can never have true balance. 1/3 of the current power level may even be too much - it might need a bigger nerf.

Additionally, the significant power gap encourages building one super-character instead of playing alts which is why those people get bored so easily.

This is coming from someone that probably is in the top 100 for # of past lifes across characters in the game.

past lives is only one piece of the puzzle. gear, EDs, enhancements, some feats and player skill/meta knowledge have greater power than past lives. there are some heroic past lives that can be completely useless for certain builds. the only reason I have been doing past lives since MOTU is because what else am I going to do with limited end game? I felt I needed them when I played MOTU content when it came out. prior to MOTU all of my characters only had 1 past life. nerf them down and there would be less past lives I would care about. theres already a lot I skip over and I don't feel completionist is worth the time or trouble. Iconic and epic past lives have greater power than heroic, but still not as powerful as gear and skill. at least those have more relevance for any kind of build.

[legendkilleroll]

Adjust trees too after testing. I'm not partial I play everything. With 30 seconds just for spirit generation added to a bruntsmash test, I already know the result will be to buff trees. If they were really that powerful, you would see more of them. Clerics, monks, and FVS can be made into trees, but there are more paladins than monks, clerics, and FVS combined, so trees can't be that good. Even if my particular warlock-tree build is OP, it just points to warlock being OP, since no one plays Cleric or FVS trees. Pretty hard to argue against the entire player base distribution, when most players are veterans and know what's up.

And I did say hit ES-Warlocks, which is what I am playing in Draconic right now. I don't care.

Yeh right lol

Player distribution means nothing really, people playing heroics for PL's and as tree only applies for epics if the char is a 1-20 then they not going to build for tree, plus like slarden said they are more complicated for alot of players, who knows whats WAI or not, plus the playstyle of shifting forms or whatever

Ive never played one but its not hard to see how OP they are, especially with all the bragging going on whether forums or in game, as for the warlock variant, you know they was OP before that class even came out so not sure what your trying to say really

[slarden]

past lives is only one piece of the puzzle. gear, EDs, enhancements, some feats and player skill/meta knowledge have greater power than past lives. there are some heroic past lives that can be completely useless for certain builds. the only reason I have been doing past lives since MOTU is because what else am I going to do with limited end game? I felt I needed them when I played MOTU content when it came out. prior to MOTU all of my characters only had 1 past life. nerf them down and there would be less past lives I would care about. theres already a lot I skip over and I don't feel completionist is worth the time or trouble. Iconic and epic past lives have greater power than heroic, but still not as powerful as gear and skill. at least those have more relevance for any kind of build.

The problem with past lifes is once you have those there is no opportunity cost. With past lifes you can get

36 PRR
129 HP
9 MRR
3% dodge
9% doublestrike
9% doubleshot
9% chance to energy crits
+3 to all saves
36 AC
9% energy absorb
+3 to hit
+3 damage
+ 6 to illusion and enchantment saves
+6 saves. vs traps
+ 30 to light spellpower
+3 to evocation DCs
+3 to conjuration DCs
+9 spell penetration
+120 spell points
+30 healing amp
+3 to int skills and UMD

No these benefits aren't small in total at all and gear choices are fairly obvious - main difference is +1 bonus to various things for raid gear. They matter more to some builds than others, but they are always good.

[Nestroy]

Just to add something that some seem to forget with that list of classes - it´s the primary class. This does not show anything about the grade of splashing. Then again the list does not say anythign about high level or epic content at all. I could do 100 lv. 1 WLs and no one would be the wiser. A lv. 15 WL 3 Pally 2 Rog cookie cutter build would be an entirely different beast. And lv. 14 Pally... well, Pally gets the nerf bat, actually ;).

Regarding bards - a bard is somethign awful to play on low levels. The bard gains much on lv. 7+ and many people using swash splash bard deeply but do not play "bards" in high level and epic content. So if bard is low on the given list of a server, this is no wonder. Better would be to analyze splash builds in epic lv. 20+. This would be much more representative of any given power levels than the mere server list, how ever interesting that data was.

[Nestroy]

The problem with past lifes is once you have those there is no opportunity cost. With past lifes you can get

36 PRR
129 HP
9 MRR
3% dodge
9% doublestrike
9% doubleshot
9% chance to energy crits
+3 to all saves
36 AC
9% energy absorb
+3 to hit
+3 damage
+ 6 to illusion and enchantment saves
+6 saves. vs traps
+ 30 to light spellpower
+3 to evocation DCs
+3 to conjuration DCs
+9 spell penetration
+120 spell points
+30 healing amp
+3 to int skills and UMD

No these benefits aren't small in total at all and gear choices are fairly obvious - main difference is +1 bonus to various things for raid gear. They matter more to some builds than others, but they are always good.

Not to forget the Completionist feat itself. Comes at a feat cost, but I would not want to miss it.

[JOTMON]

The problem with past lifes is once you have those there is no opportunity cost. With past lifes you can get

36 PRR
129 HP
9 MRR
3% dodge
9% doublestrike
9% doubleshot
9% chance to energy crits
+3 to all saves
36 AC
9% energy absorb
+3 to hit
+3 damage
+ 6 to illusion and enchantment saves
+6 saves. vs traps
+ 30 to light spellpower
+3 to evocation DCs
+3 to conjuration DCs
+9 spell penetration
+120 spell points
+30 healing amp
+3 to int skills and UMD

No these benefits aren't small in total at all and gear choices are fairly obvious - main difference is +1 bonus to various things for raid gear. They matter more to some builds than others, but they are always good.

and for around 500 million XP they can all be yours...

They are great perks to encourage TR lives.. but it is a lot of XP farming and XP in lives players may not enjoy..
Completionist/Epic completionist/Iconic completionist are available to every player who makes the time XP investment to get them

On a one off basis most of the past lives are not a big deal, +3 PRR.. meh...
but its the little tweaks and multiples that add up to make it much more beneficial.. stacking 36 PRR is pretty appealing..
Barbarian past life 10HP.. meh..
but 3x barbarian for 30 plus and 9x Primal for 99 (currently).. its 129HP.. that's a lot of xp grinding .. is it worth 71,340,000XP (3Heroic@3.8mm, 3 levelled destinies@1.98mm, 9Epic past lives@6mm).


For those that want to be all they can be and who make the effort to hunt down tweaks and bonuses its a lot of past lives...
~~
42 Heroic past lives lives @3.8mm xp =159.6mm
12 Epic Destines to level them up initially @1.98mm xp =23.76mm
36 Epic past lives @6mm xp =216mm
12 Iconic past lives @7.7mm xp =92.4mm
~~

Single life 179,760,000 XP Completionist/Epic completionist/Iconic completionsit..
Tripled up 491,760,000 XP
not including any lost XP from regaining completionist after class additions, or going back to preferred classes, or just lost in general levelling...

now of course there are those that complain that its not fair, they have real lives and jobs and cant invest the time to get these past lives.. well to those I say..
if you want it go get it, if not get over it.
Its not a limited time offer, they are not going away, you have all the time you need to go and farm these even if it takes years. all it takes is the commitment to start and stay on target.
for those that cant be bothered.. well, the prize is only there for those that go and get it and it is there for everyone that does, so no point procrastinating..



In all truthfulness they need to nerf past lifes to about 1/3 the power they are today or possibly less. Until they do that we can never have true balance. 1/3 of the current power level may even be too much - it might need a bigger nerf.

Additionally, the significant power gap encourages building one super-character instead of playing alts which is why those people get bored so easily.

This is coming from someone that probably is in the top 100 for # of past lifes across characters in the game.

.. you want to nerf players who have spent 500 million XP grinding...
now also consider before someone says but they probably used XP pots and otto's boxes...and .. whatever... That is real money spent in store purchases that supports the game overall.
People who TR also generally buy bank space, backpack space, bags, character slots, augments, store pots, guild ship investments, pack content, VIP, and more..
Nerfing these players would be bad for the game.

[slarden]

and for around 500 million XP they can all be yours...

They are great perks to encourage TR lives.. but it is a lot of XP farming and XP in lives players may not enjoy..
Completionist/Epic completionist/Iconic completionist are available to every player who makes the time XP investment to get them

On a one off basis most of the past lives are not a big deal, +3 PRR.. meh...
but its the little tweaks and multiples that add up to make it much more beneficial.. stacking 36 PRR is pretty appealing..
Barbarian past life 10HP.. meh..
but 3x barbarian for 30 plus and 9x Primal for 99 (currently).. its 129HP.. that's a lot of xp grinding .. is it worth 71,340,000XP (3Heroic@3.8mm, 3 levelled destinies@1.98mm, 9Epic past lives@6mm).


For those that want to be all they can be and who make the effort to hunt down tweaks and bonuses its a lot of past lives...
~~
42 Heroic past lives lives @3.8mm xp =159.6mm
12 Epic Destines to level them up initially @1.98mm xp =23.76mm
36 Epic past lives @6mm xp =216mm
12 Iconic past lives @7.7mm xp =92.4mm
~~

Single life 179,760,000 XP Completionist/Epic completionist/Iconic completionsit..
Tripled up 491,760,000 XP
not including any lost XP from regaining completionist after class additions, or going back to preferred classes, or just lost in general levelling...

now of course there are those that complain that its not fair, they have real lives and jobs and cant invest the time to get these past lives.. well to those I say..
if you want it go get it, if not get over it.
Its not a limited time offer, they are not going away, you have all the time you need to go and farm these even if it takes years. all it takes is the commitment to start and stay on target.
for those that cant be bothered.. well, the prize is only there for those that go and get it and it is there for everyone that does, so no point procrastinating..




.. you want to nerf players who have spent 500 million XP grinding...
now also consider before someone says but they probably used XP pots and otto's boxes...and .. whatever... That is real money spent in store purchases that supports the game overall.
People who TR also generally buy bank space, backpack space, bags, character slots, augments, store pots, guild ship investments, pack content, VIP, and more..
Nerfing these players would be bad for the game.

I don't care if they nerf past lifes and I likely have more than you.

Quite honestly I would rather lose past lifes than have to regrind my thunderforged gear because I don't need a group of people to get past lifes. With thunderforged gear the raid is run alot less than it used to be. So yeah if the devs are interested in balance and they don't care about taking away progress past lifes should be nerfed.

If they don't want to take away progress a twf paladin should be able to change their khopesh in for a great axe or something else. This balance pass is severe enough that some builds are going to have to change.

So yeah if the devs want balance and don't care about taking away progress they should also nerf past life benefits while they nerf other things. If they don't want to take away progress they should allow people to exchange their thunderforged.

I don't care which they do, but they shouldn't cater to the TR crowd only. To a person that spent 40 raids making their weapon - that time is just as important to them as your TR time.

[Nestroy]

(...)
.. you want to nerf players who have spent 500 million XP grinding...
now also consider before someone says but they probably used XP pots and otto's boxes...and .. whatever... That is real money spent in store purchases that supports the game overall.
People who TR also generally buy bank space, backpack space, bags, character slots, augments, store pots, guild ship investments, pack content, VIP, and more..
Nerfing these players would be bad for the game.

/signed

1st, thank you for looking up the numbers.

2nd, for all those doing 500 millions of XP: Congratulations, you won DDO with that toon. Ofc everything you are now still touching is easy to you.

Exactly for these people grindijng 500 mio. XP we need a Reaper difficulty. We do not need to make Elite only to be done by these winners. We need to see Elite run by good players. Good, but not yet perfect. The nerf pass is just the wrong direction, generally speaking. The decission to do the power creep way dates back to MotU and the introduction of EDs. Then came the 1st big enhancement pass. Then came the single passes...

Now nerfing across the board to give the top 1% tripple complete completionist winners back some difficulty level is just the utter wrong way. Simple as that. It nerfs and turns away everybody else. It widens the gap between those that did all and everything and those that still did not. Its doing nothing to retain players, except perhaps a small but vocal minority. Mark my words, we will see the pass of the pass in a few weeks when they rework and "balance" what they will have done with U28.1 in U28.2 and following updates. But then, damage will have been done.

[JOTMON]

I don't care if they nerf past lifes and I likely have more than you.

Quite honestly I would rather lose past lifes than have to regrind my thunderforged gear because I don't need a group of people to get past lifes. With thunderforged gear the raid is run alot less than it used to be. So yeah if the devs are interested in balance and they don't care about taking away progress past lifes should be nerfed.

If they don't want to take away progress a twf paladin should be able to change their khopesh in for a great axe or something else. This balance pass is severe enough that some builds are going to have to change.

So yeah if the devs want balance and don't care about taking away progress they should also nerf past life benefits while they nerf other things. If they don't want to take away progress they should allow people to exchange their thunderforged.

I don't care which they do, but they shouldn't cater to the TR crowd only. To a person that spent 40 raids making their weapon - that time is just as important to them as your TR time.


maybe you do have more, maybe you don't, its not the point.
I would rather see a deconstruction option for TF gear than nerf my past lives..