Rogue - Assassin Changes

[CThruTheEgo]

~ We are considering making Weakening Strikes reduce Melee Power of enemies with an Assassin's Mark by 10 + 1/2 Rogue level. That means a level 20 Rogue will be getting an extra 20% mitigation.

Just to clarify, is "Weakening Strikes" a new ability or are you referring to the "Weakness Poison" ability in tier 4 of the proposed changes?

[Monkey-Boy]

Some comments:

~ The randomized traps in ToEE will probably make a trapper with a good Spot skill valuable. Especially on Epic Elite.

Sev~

Random traps is a good thing, but the traps NEED to be able to kill people or nobody will care. I'm thinking triple the EE HH trap damage and you'll probably be fine.

[HatsuharuZ]

Random traps is a good thing, but the traps NEED to be able to kill people or nobody will care. I'm thinking triple the EE HH trap damage and you'll probably be fine.

The EE Haunted Halls traps kill people without evasion already. I think those are fine, lol.

[slarden]

Some comments:

~ The randomized traps in ToEE will probably make a trapper with a good Spot skill valuable. Especially on Epic Elite.

~ We are considering making Weakening Strikes reduce Melee Power of enemies with an Assassin's Mark by 10 + 1/2 Rogue level. That means a level 20 Rogue will be getting an extra 20% mitigation.

Yeah, I know I said we were going to hold off on further changes until Lamannia but we've been talking about the discussions on Rogue mitigation.

Sev~

Both changes are great.

I really think the complete fortification bypass buff in champions creates a huge balance problem in the game because big crits are especially harsh on low-PRR characters. If changing that isn't possible more mitigation through skillful play is most welcomed.

I will definitely take weakening strikes if I can mitigate damage by 20%.

If changes aren't completely done at this point I will point out one thing I think is problematic:

Running invis is more effective than sneaking because the enemy has more chance to notice you when sneaking since you are moving slower. Would you consider changing the top tier sneak speed boost from 50% to 75% (25/50/75).

Thank you for your continued refinement.

[CThruTheEgo]

EDIT: I was wrong.

[Grailhawk]

Running invis is more effective than sneaking because the enemy has more chance to notice you when sneaking since you are moving slower. Would you consider changing the top tier sneak speed boost from 50% to 75% (25/50/75).


This or adding some more sneak reduction in to a Tier 5 or in to the Cores. Rogues need to be able to move and move fast while in stealth, It should be on of there shtick's. Leaving that 50% caps in monk and ranger is cool but assassin rogues should be able to do a bit more 25% sounds right to me.

[Monkey-Boy]

The EE Haunted Halls traps kill people without evasion already. I think those are fine, lol.

The PRR pass has made them a lot less scarry.

[Grailhawk]

Movement speed is reduced by 50% while sneaking, isn't it? So with another 50% from faster sneaking, that brings it up to 100%. Add in the movement speed bonus from acrobat which grants 1% per rogue level and a pure assassin should be sneaking at 120% base movement speed, right? Unless I'm wrong about the initial reduction of sneak, that should be perfect.

That's not how it works (at least not how it worked when U19 came out and i tested it). The reduction happens in such a way that you go from 100% to 50% having the enh raised it to 75%, Its not a +50% movement speed while in stealth it a reduction in the penalty so you can think of it as a +25% speed while in stealth.

So assuming base movement is 100px pre second, thief would move that to 120px per second, Stealth on that would drop to you 60px per second, having the stealth speed enh would lower it to mean you move at 90px per second.

[slarden]

Movement speed is reduced by 50% while sneaking, isn't it? So with another 50% from faster sneaking, that brings it up to 100%. Add in the movement speed bonus from acrobat which grants 1% per rogue level and a pure assassin should be sneaking at 120% base movement speed, right? Unless I'm wrong about the initial reduction of sneak, that should be perfect.

I am below 100% with the 50% sneak speed boost now.

I think it's 50% * 150% not 50% + 50% so it's currently at 75% base. I did forget about the 20% speed boost which is why I never mentioned previously so that brings it up to 90% base (50% * 150% * 120%) which I guess is good enough. The 20% is applied everywhere I assume so we are still sneaking at 75% of our standard speed. Changing the top tier from 50% to 75% sneak speed boost would change it from 75% of our standard speed to 87.5% of our standard speed.

I guess it depends on what negative game effect faster sneaking creates. I can't think of any downside.

[CThruTheEgo]

That's not how it works (at least not how it worked when U19 came out and i tested it). The reduction happens in such a way that you go from 100% to 50% having the enh raised it to 75%, Its not a +50% movement speed while in stealth it a reduction in the penalty so you can think of it as a +25% speed while in stealth.

So assuming base movement is 100px pre second, thief would move that to 120px per second, Stealth on that would drop to you 60px per second, having the stealth speed enh would lower it to mean you move at 90px per second.

Ugh. Thanks for the clarification.

Sev, we need full movement speed at least. This would drastically increase that "fun factor" you mentioned as being a core evaluation criteria of the these changes.

[Blackheartox]

The PRR pass has made them a lot less scarry.

What he said.

My experience with necro sorc is that it is really effective.
Thing is, in necro 4 the hold burst doesnt work out very well.
So swaping points here and there and going exalted you gain effectivness in that content.
Sunbursts /undeath to death and regular wail etc stuff.
Your hold burst still instakills stuff, but you gain a lot more versatility like flesh to stoning blinds and similiar fun stuff.
Also a heal which is not needed but always welcome.
Dps suffers alot and il prolly do my 18 sorc 1 monk 1 fsoul idea on main since debuffs stack and give you 26.5% more dps on the element you pick.

But back to necro sorc, its only i think 1 dc behind a pure specd pm in necro due to exalteds dcs and ability to gain 1 extra dc via taken cookies.
And you still keep your caster levels imollation and vulnerability.
More sp, and faster casting speed and faster cds make it a better instakiller imo then pmasters are (i know its silly but i played a pm in ees and considerd its burst dc to be quite strong and powerful but sorc is just funny, you can do so many things with that class that it is beyond funny)

I would not want sorcs to be able to instakill oranged named.
Personally only thing i thnk casters need to be on par with melles is more burst dps, aka prolly more spellpower would fix it.
They dont need it, but if we get melle power on gear then it will be necessary to be on the same ground

[CThruTheEgo]

I am below 100% with the 50% sneak speed boost now.

I think it's 50% * 150% not 50% + 50% so it's currently at 75% base. I did forget about the 20% speed boost which is why I never mentioned previously so that brings it up to 90% base (50% * 150% * 120%) which I guess is good enough. The 20% is applied everywhere I assume so we are still sneaking at 75% of our standard speed. Changing the top tier from 50% to 75% sneak speed boost would change it from 75% of our standard speed to 87.5% of our standard speed.

I guess it depends on what negative game effect faster sneaking creates. I can't think of any downside.

Yeah I realized that doesn't add up currently.

90% is a 15% improvement over what we have currently, but it is still a disadvantage that is simply not necessary. It accomplishes nothing other than sticking to PnP tradition, which I think we have veered far enough away from in other mechanics that there's no need anymore to keep up pretenses.

[Blackheartox]

Some comments:

~ The randomized traps in ToEE will probably make a trapper with a good Spot skill valuable. Especially on Epic Elite.

~ We are considering making Weakening Strikes reduce Melee Power of enemies with an Assassin's Mark by 10 + 1/2 Rogue level. That means a level 20 Rogue will be getting an extra 20% mitigation.

Yeah, I know I said we were going to hold off on further changes until Lamannia but we've been talking about the discussions on Rogue mitigation.

Sev~

Ty very much with the random trap location.
That really brings a nice doze of flavor, esp if you guys make the gear to be lets say "must have" for most builds.
Also as others said, make the traps do such horribly huge damage at least on ee, that we dont just walk thro em without caring at all on ee.
I dont think punishing prr chars should be a bad thing, imo evasion should still keep its ground for the main reason it was designed for aka traps.
I dont play evasion toons now, but i want evasion to be strong and needed.
Grouping or reason to not go full bulletproof prr builds. Whatever reason, also another thing, could you guys design content in future with that idea?
Random placed heavy hard hitting traps

[Severlin]

Just to clarify, is "Weakening Strikes" a new ability or are you referring to the "Weakness Poison" ability in tier 4 of the proposed changes?

Weakness Poison got changed to Weakening Strikes when we changed the mechanic to "Assassin's Mark" instead of "Poisoned" so it would work on enemies immune to poison.

Sev~

[Blackheartox]

Some comments:

~ The randomized traps in ToEE will probably make a trapper with a good Spot skill valuable. Especially on Epic Elite.

~ We are considering making Weakening Strikes reduce Melee Power of enemies with an Assassin's Mark by 10 + 1/2 Rogue level. That means a level 20 Rogue will be getting an extra 20% mitigation.

Yeah, I know I said we were going to hold off on further changes until Lamannia but we've been talking about the discussions on Rogue mitigation.

Sev~

Another thing sev, i know i might sound now very odd n such.
But if you consider that as a 20% less damage, with dodge that can really go high now as a rogue with acrobat splash and with prr gear /lets assume 35 from gear and full maxed 36 from plifes and lets say 25 from armor /no idea how much it is now since i really never played a light armor char but i would prolly do medium on rogue-

Anyways now we are looking at 20% less from weaken strike around 30 lets say dodge and nearly 100 /but it can pass 100 im sure of it prr and displace for 50% conceal, and lets assume someone for whatever reason actually plays in shadowdancer for 25% incorpo.


To me that sounds like hella lot damage mitigation if we include evasion.

Only weakness would be forti based spells and maybe will based spells /which can most of the time be negated with items/spells.
I mean im not against this idea, but the mitigation suddenly seems quite good to me, maybe slightly to good heh
esp if i count that i never saw a spot with many casters that spam desintis where you cant go in and assasinate em all

[CThruTheEgo]

Weakness Poison got changed to Weakening Strikes when we changed the mechanic to "Assassin's Mark" instead of "Poisoned" so it would work on enemies immune to poison.

Sev~

Got it. Thanks for the clarification.

[CThruTheEgo]

Another thing sev, i know i might sound now very odd n such.
But if you consider that as a 20% less damage, with dodge that can really go high now as a rogue with acrobat splash and with prr gear /lets assume 35 from gear and full maxed 36 from plifes and lets say 25 from armor /no idea how much it is now since i really never played a light armor char but i would prolly do medium on rogue-

Anyways now we are looking at 20% less from weaken strike around 30 lets say dodge and nearly 100 /but it can pass 100 im sure of it prr and displace for 50% conceal, and lets assume someone for whatever reason actually plays in shadowdancer for 25% incorpo.


To me that sounds like hella lot damage mitigation if we include evasion.

Only weakness would be forti based spells and maybe will based spells /which can most of the time be negated with items/spells.
I mean im not against this idea, but the mitigation suddenly seems quite good to me, maybe slightly to good heh
esp if i count that i never saw a spot with many casters that spam desintis where you cant go in and assasinate em all

Damage avoidance is not the same as damage mitigation.

[redoubt]

Weakness Poison got changed to Weakening Strikes when we changed the mechanic to "Assassin's Mark" instead of "Poisoned" so it would work on enemies immune to poison.

Sev~

Ty again for staying involved with the thread.


There is a lot of talk on traps. I think random is great. I also think they need to be deadly, but agree that HH traps are deadly already, except for those with super PRR/MRR numbers.

PRR is taking the edge off of blade/slash traps now. That makes sense to me.

What if traps like fire jets bypassed MRR? Put those traps back into the realm of the evasion characters?

[slarden]

Another thing sev, i know i might sound now very odd n such.
But if you consider that as a 20% less damage, with dodge that can really go high now as a rogue with acrobat splash and with prr gear /lets assume 35 from gear and full maxed 36 from plifes and lets say 25 from armor /no idea how much it is now since i really never played a light armor char but i would prolly do medium on rogue-

Anyways now we are looking at 20% less from weaken strike around 30 lets say dodge and nearly 100 /but it can pass 100 im sure of it prr and displace for 50% conceal, and lets assume someone for whatever reason actually plays in shadowdancer for 25% incorpo.


To me that sounds like hella lot damage mitigation if we include evasion.

Only weakness would be forti based spells and maybe will based spells /which can most of the time be negated with items/spells.
I mean im not against this idea, but the mitigation suddenly seems quite good to me, maybe slightly to good heh
esp if i count that i never saw a spot with many casters that spam desintis where you cant go in and assasinate em all

I bolded the the part above that really stood and really helps me understand why you would say some of the things you said.

The biggest problem I have on my rogue (in light armor) is those really big hits. With rogue PRR and complete fort bypass that can mean instant death. My barbarian in heavy armor never has this problem.

Let's not forget that displacement is available to all classes equally - rogues are likely relying on clickies and not all rogues have clickies. People keep mentioning displacement like it's a class benefit of rogue -it's not. Shadowdancer 25% ghostly is an ED benefit and not a class benefit - available to anyone using that ED. Many prefer LD over Shadowdancer.

I really like Sev's proposal because it requires the character to apply some good tactics while playing. I would love to see complete fort bypass changed to armor piercing 100% but based on the non-response on that topic in many threads I assume that is a dead issue. It also isn't 20% on rogue splashes since rogue level is part of the equation.

[Ghwyn]

The EE Haunted Halls traps kill people without evasion already. I think those are fine, lol.

No, not even on EE do they kill, unless a toon is very squishy. My trapper wears HA; there is no need for evasion anymore.

[slarden]

No, not even on EE do they kill, unless a toon is very squishy. My trapper wears HA; there is no need for evasion anymore.

If you get caught in a web trap with the blades spinning on EE I don't think heavy armor will save you. It's still possible to die in other traps with heavy armor on EE - I've seen it.

[Grailhawk]

Some comments:
~ We are considering making Weakening Strikes reduce Melee Power of enemies with an Assassin's Mark by 10 + 1/2 Rogue level. That means a level 20 Rogue will be getting an extra 20% mitigation.

Sev~


This is good but I'm thematically I would prefer more abilities that prevent mobs from attacking a rogue (like bluf, feint).

[depositbox]

If you get caught in a web trap with the blades spinning on EE I don't think heavy armor will save you. It's still possible to die in other traps with heavy armor on EE - I've seen it.

HH traps can kill you with 1300 hp and making every ref save on a pally in heavy armor. prr 180.

[Severlin]

Another thing sev, i know i might sound now very odd n such.
But if you consider that as a 20% less damage, with dodge that can really go high now as a rogue with acrobat splash and with prr gear /lets assume 35 from gear and full maxed 36 from plifes and lets say 25 from armor /no idea how much it is now since i really never played a light armor char but i would prolly do medium on rogue-

Anyways now we are looking at 20% less from weaken strike around 30 lets say dodge and nearly 100 /but it can pass 100 im sure of it prr and displace for 50% conceal, and lets assume someone for whatever reason actually plays in shadowdancer for 25% incorpo.


To me that sounds like hella lot damage mitigation if we include evasion.

Only weakness would be forti based spells and maybe will based spells /which can most of the time be negated with items/spells.
I mean im not against this idea, but the mitigation suddenly seems quite good to me, maybe slightly to good heh
esp if i count that i never saw a spot with many casters that spam desintis where you cant go in and assasinate em all

Your weakness will also be hordes of enemies where you can't apply your debuff on all of them. But that's the Assassin design - strong mitigation on the single target where you can prepare, and less on the angry mob chasing you.

Sev~

[Blackheartox]

If you get caught in a web trap with the blades spinning on EE I don't think heavy armor will save you. It's still possible to die in other traps with heavy armor on EE - I've seen it.

Yes, but fireshield simply negates that threat.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Some comments:

~ The randomized traps in ToEE will probably make a trapper with a good Spot skill valuable. Especially on Epic Elite.

~ We are considering making Weakening Strikes reduce Melee Power of enemies with an Assassin's Mark by 10 + 1/2 Rogue level. That means a level 20 Rogue will be getting an extra 20% mitigation.

Yeah, I know I said we were going to hold off on further changes until Lamannia but we've been talking about the discussions on Rogue mitigation.

Sev~

So what does Jeets have to say about all this?

[Blackheartox]

Your weakness will also be hordes of enemies where you can't apply your debuff on all of them. But that's the Assassin design - strong mitigation on the single target where you can prepare, and less on the angry mob chasing you.

Sev~

I like the desing goal.
I can alrdy anticipate good rogue survival with this.
Should be fun, now just to tweak dps a bit and id say, good to go.

IT heavily depends tho how you guys will propose mechanic, so that we can see synergy of splashing into multiple prestiges

[redoubt]

No, not even on EE do they kill, unless a toon is very squishy. My trapper wears HA; there is no need for evasion anymore.

Then the problem is PRR and MRR. Not the trap.

[Certon]

Simple (and absurd) suggestion for sneak attack dice:

Instead of doing xd6 additional damage on sneak attacks, add x to the weapon attack if it is a successful sneak attack.

so, 15d6 turns into +15w damage instead. That way, it scales with crits and is affected by melee power perfectly.

Yeah, I know, terrible idea, but all ideas must be floated when you're brainstorming...

[Monkey-Boy]

. . . . and less on the angry mob chasing you.

Sev~

Hmmm . .. apparently he DOES look at our signatures :)

[Spoonwelder]

Your weakness will also be hordes of enemies where you can't apply your debuff on all of them. But that's the Assassin design - strong mitigation on the single target where you can prepare, and less on the angry mob chasing you.

Sev~

I like it. I like it alot.

My only quibble with this is that there are quite a few end fights in the game that are 'angry mob' spams plus a semi strong rednamed such that single target mitigation will be a secondary defense or boss only defense. In fact those vastly outnumber the single uber strong boss by a long shot.

I think others are right that there are enough changes right now to need to see the full suite in synergy before we comment too much more.

[redoubt]

Hmmm . .. apparently he DOES look at our signatures :)

Yeah, but your angry mob guy should be waving a banana!

[CThruTheEgo]

My only quibble with this is that there are quite a few end fights in the game that are 'angry mob' spams plus a semi strong rednamed such that single target mitigation will be a secondary defense or boss only defense. In fact those vastly outnumber the single uber strong boss by a long shot.

Good point. If content is not released which caters to a build's specific strengths and playstyle, then there's no point to those strengths or playstyle. If nothing but content which is counter to that playstyle is released, then it becomes practically obligatory to give all classes/builds a capablility to cope with such content. Most recent content has consisted of large waves of angry mobs. So please take this into account when developing future content Sev.

[redoubt]

On Mitigation.

It may simply be too large of a damage range to adequately prepare for the biggest spikes without giving rogues too much mitigation. That said, I just ran EE cabal for one on my 196PRR paladin. I was hit for 700ish by a champion. I didn't have time to get a look at his specific buffs, sorry. (It might have been a little more or less for the actual number as I was on tank duty.)

Even if we say it was only 500, that is a 1500 point hit - 2/3 for my prr = 500. If we get our assassins up to 70ish or 40% mitigation, that is a 900 point hit. So how do we deal with this mob without making assassin's OP and/or an easy button?

Some ideas:
1. Make sure we can get to that 40ish% mark without past lives (thinking light armor here)
2. Give us some defense against TS. This doesn't directly protect against the spike, but it will lessen the chance of getting hit with that spike.
3. Remove fort bypass and replace it with a fort reduction system
4. I'm intrigued by the -damage debuff. This works as long as we get the first hit. I know my group targets champs first as they are the biggest threat (I'm guessing many others do as well.) If I understand it correctly it would look like this:

1500 point hit - 20% (damage debuff) = 1200. 1200 - 40% (PRR) = 720 point hit. --> this makes for a much more survivable hit. I think most characters would have enough HP by level 26 to take one and bounce out to heal.

If changing the fort bypass makes it too difficult to adequately challenge HA/tower shield tank types, is there some sort of additional crit protection to be implemented? Maybe something with Defensive Roll or Imp Evasion? If the mob has bypass fort AND critical hits you have a 50% to roll with it and be pushed/jump back 10 feet and only take normal damage (not crit)

[Sebastrd]

~ We are considering making Weakening Strikes reduce Melee Power of enemies with an Assassin's Mark by 10 + 1/2 Rogue level. That means a level 20 Rogue will be getting an extra 20% mitigation.
Sev~

Ooh

I like that - an offensive defensive capability, or proactive defense, if you will. Nice

[brzytki]

4. I'm intrigued by the -damage debuff. This works as long as we get the first hit. I know my group targets champs first as they are the biggest threat (I'm guessing many others do as well.) If I understand it correctly it would look like this:

1500 point hit - 20% (damage debuff) = 1200. 1200 - 40% (PRR) = 720 point hit. --> this makes for a much more survivable hit. I think most characters would have enough HP by level 26 to take one and bounce out to heal.

If changing the fort bypass makes it too difficult to adequately challenge HA/tower shield tank types, is there some sort of additional crit protection to be implemented? Maybe something with Defensive Roll or Imp Evasion? If the mob has bypass fort AND critical hits you have a 50% to roll with it and be pushed/jump back 10 feet and only take normal damage (not crit)

I don't think it's gonna work like this. You are taking Weakening Strikes as a straight damage debuff whereas it just reduces MP. In other words, it's not going to be as effective. See this:
A mob hits normally for 200 damage and has 80 MP, resulting in 360 damage done to a player.
The same mob after the debuff has 60 MP and hits a player for 320 damage.
If it was a straight damage reduction like you wrote, it would be 360*4/5=288. See the difference?

[gwonbush]

I don't think it's gonna work like this. You are taking Weakening Strikes as a straight damage debuff whereas it just reduces MP. In other words, it's not going to be as effective. See this:
A mob hits normally for 200 damage and has 80 MP, resulting in 360 damage done to a player.
The same mob after the debuff has 60 MP and hits a player for 320 damage.
If it was a straight damage reduction like you wrote, it would be 360*4/5=288. See the difference?

This assumes the monster you are attacking actually has MP. Since MP was introduced in U23, you are unlikely to find it on monsters that were coded before then. As far as I am aware, the only monsters with MP are the archers in MoD. Though the champion buff that increases their base damage might have been coded as MP as well.

[brzytki]

This assumes the monster you are attacking actually has MP. Since MP was introduced in U23, you are unlikely to find it on monsters that were coded before then. As far as I am aware, the only monsters with MP are the archers in MoD. Though the champion buff that increases their base damage might have been coded as MP as well.

If monsters have no MP then the whole description needs to be reworded. And if they do, then what i wrote is true.

[pjstechie]

~ We are considering making Weakening Strikes reduce Melee Power of enemies with an Assassin's Mark by 10 + 1/2 Rogue level. That means a level 20 Rogue will be getting an extra 20% mitigation.

Sev~


I like this idea, and it plays well with others, but I wonder if this would be better with the crippling strike special ability/rogue feat. It has a similar effect to draining strength but would be more effective in epic levels where stat drain isn't very effective. I see this as being a stacking effect with a hard cap (rogue level based?) - similar to the vulnerable thunder forge weapon effect.

[brzytki]

I have a question on the topic of DW blocking assassinate. Does DW also block Coup de Grace? Cause i can't recall from my last bard life.

[amsharkwei]

Movement speed is reduced by 50% while sneaking, isn't it? So with another 50% from faster sneaking, that brings it up to 100%. Add in the movement speed bonus from acrobat which grants 1% per rogue level and a pure assassin should be sneaking at 120% base movement speed, right? Unless I'm wrong about the initial reduction of sneak, that should be perfect.

50%+50%=75% sir~!

[amsharkwei]

agree with random traps

but there is a problem is the spot skill,it's based on wisdom

an assassin rogue with INT build maybe have 95 search,but only 80 spot

Class feat "Trap Sense" need also add spot skill vs. trap

maybe some passive ability made automatically Search without penalty.

[General_Gronker]

but there is a problem is the spot skill,it's based on wisdom

That's not a problem, that's as it should be.

[Kawai]

This is a great point. It would be great if rogues can sneak at full speed. Maybe make it part of all 3 capstones.

+1
when enhncmnt pass first came, all sneak-speeds stacked.
it was relevant & loved by de masses.
-no longer did anyone hav ta wait on Rogue to disarm. Ditto w/ Mechanics quicker disarming.

it was a purely ascetic positive to the Class.

For whtvr reason, Devs rubbed chins & blurted out: "nah, lets nerf dat"!
-lame.

-------------------
thotz:
Assassinate cooldown should b around 10sec.
& yes, Sev, it SHOULD b usable during fray!

& the whole sneaking timer should reset @ 2/3 seconds, not 5.

DC's should b grown ta match EE as well.
Supposed 2b Epic Toons we're running around w/ afterall.

A Pure Rogue Assn should never b nerfed in abilities to perform tasks. Crazy.

-------------------

[Bobby88888]

Some comments:

~ The randomized traps in ToEE will probably make a trapper with a good Spot skill valuable. Especially on Epic Elite.

~ We are considering making Weakening Strikes reduce Melee Power of enemies with an Assassin's Mark by 10 + 1/2 Rogue level. That means a level 20 Rogue will be getting an extra 20% mitigation.

Yeah, I know I said we were going to hold off on further changes until Lamannia but we've been talking about the discussions on Rogue mitigation.

Sev~

This is brilliant news and well needed (on both points). Thank you.


I think assassinate ignoring DB/DW and being able to assassinate orange named mobs (providing you make the DC) as well as a bit of a sneak speed boost will go a long way to make Assassins more fun to play.



I also really think that we should get a little more damage, see prior posts for some possible solutions. Keep the damage Sneak Attack based but please.

[Saekee]

Movement speed is reduced by 50% while sneaking, isn't it? So with another 50% from faster sneaking, that brings it up to 100%. Add in the movement speed bonus from acrobat which grants 1% per rogue level and a pure assassin should be sneaking at 120% base movement speed, right? Unless I'm wrong about the initial reduction of sneak, that should be perfect.

I believe the calculation is as follows:
General movement speed and bonuses (here would be the acrobat bonus to movement speed) then half of this for faster sneaking. This has been my experience, anyway.

So the acrobat bonus will increase the sneak speed by 10% at rogue level 20.

I suggest that the movement speed bonus be increased another 1% per epic level, although it is not worth emphasizing.

[CThruTheEgo]

I believe the calculation is as follows:
General movement speed and bonuses (here would be the acrobat bonus to movement speed) then half of this for faster sneaking. This has been my experience, anyway.

So the acrobat bonus will increase the sneak speed by 10% at rogue level 20.

I suggest that the movement speed bonus be increased another 1% per epic level, although it is not worth emphasizing.

I believe slarden is correct, final sneak speed on a pure assassin with faster sneaking and the acrobat movement speed will be 90% base movement speed. So the acrobat boost will add 15% over what we have now. Here is the math:

currently on live:
100% base movement speed
*0.5 for sneak mode
=50% sneak speed
*1.5 for faster sneaking enhancement
=75% total sneak speed

proposed changes:
100% base movement speed
+20% from acrobat bonus on a level 20 rogue
=120% movement speed
*0.5 for sneak mode
=60% sneak speed
*1.5 for faster sneaking enhancement
=90% final sneak speed

I think that is how it would work, but this is DDO and I'm not sure that we have been told in what order they will apply, so you never know. If the acrobat bonus is added after the sneak mode penalty, that would make the final speed 95%. Either way it's less than 100% base movement speed and is behind each of the revamped classes who all have an increased speed.

It needs to be brought up to at least 100%. As others have suggested, removing faster sneaking altogether and adding a 10% reduction in the sneak speed penalty to each of the first five cores would negate the penalty altogether by level 18. That sounds about right to me.

[Severlin]

~ A sneaking assassin seems pretty quick to me, but I admittedly haven't played it in a group since we just finished putting it into Assassin. It will be good feedback from Lamannia.

~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?

~ The way Melee and Ranged Power works is this:

If MP is positive, the multiplier to damage is (100 + Rating)/100.
If MP is negative, the multiplier to damage is 100/(100 + Rating)

Note that many monsters do not currently have any Melee or Ranged Power. (I'd have to check if the champion buffs use MP and RP or just a straight damage boost.)

Sev~

[slarden]

If changing the fort bypass makes it too difficult to adequately challenge HA/tower shield tank types, is there some sort of additional crit protection to be implemented? Maybe something with Defensive Roll or Imp Evasion? If the mob has bypass fort AND critical hits you have a 50% to roll with it and be pushed/jump back 10 feet and only take normal damage (not crit)

If they are trying to challenge heavy armor users with damage it would be far better to replace complete fort bypass with PRR/MRR debuff that reduces PRR/MRR. I don't think this would kill a tank if fortification is working and it would reduce the huge damage spikes on lower PRR characters.

Sev is talking about making EE Temple really hard which is great. But what does "really hard" mean? Hitting twice as hard as now?

Aside from the new champion buffs, a rogue with good fortification mitigates 50-75% of the damage from crits with fortification and maybe 35% or so from PRR. A higher PRR character mitigates 50-75% of the damage from crits with fortification and maybe 65% or so from PRR. This is why I think a PRR/MRR debuff makes more sense than a fortification bypass if the goal is to challenge all builds.

I read the devs say they don't think fort bypass is causing the damage spikes, but I am not understanding how they can say that unless fort bypass is working differently than I think. The last time I had a big damage spike and died it specifically said I was critically hit in the combat log and my fortification is over 150%. I didn't see the monster buff but if I am taking a crit I assume fort bypass has to be one of those.

[davmuzl]

~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?

Since we can use int to damage from the harper tree anyway I don't think it would make a huge difference, maybe a small increase because halflings and shadar-kai have more dex. Just for flavor reasons I'd prefer if it kept only int for the DCs.

Something else I thought of would be to have items that increase poison DCs and make it the same effect that increases the assassinate DC.

edit: Since it is easier to get high dex from items this will simply mean that rogues will ignore the int option and go with dex. It might still not be enough to make assassinate usable in endgame content.

[IronClan]

~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?


I like it, more options are always welcome IMO. Speaking of which Sev have you guys ruled out making the Assassinate DC Formula at least a little more flexible towards multiclassed assassins?

A Ninja Assassin for example is really not possible because any number of Monk levels crushes your assassinate DC to the tune of 1 DC per level multiclassed. I would really love to see Assassinate DC change to 20 + 1/2 Rogue levels. (2 levels = 1 DC or half the current penalty) I expect you guys have decided that you're okay with 20 rogue levels being necessary?

If we absolutely can't get a more flexible (not asking for higher DC's just more flexibility) can we consider putting a slightly weaker form of Assassinate into the Ninja Spy tree? Maybe as a high level core?

[slarden]

~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?



There would be no reason to ever go with an int build if you did this. It's much easier to get a high dex vs. a high int. High Int requires more investment, AP, etc. you are creating massive ranged and multi-class synergies by doing that.

To me you are just adding an easy button and power creep by doing that. Not to mention, Shadowdancer has a dex-based ability that isn't as good as assassinate, but still if it was too good to give to int-builds now you are giving both to dex-builds.

With that said if you do this, I will certainly exploit it - but I would rather see assassin not become another easy button.

#way too far

As for the sneaking speed - the only reason I want it is to keep up with the party so I can remain in sneak before a battle. Unlike the dex suggestion, improving sneak speed is something that doesn't add power creep but makes assassins easier to play in a party. If there is a way to exploit it - someone should mention it because I can live with slower speed in that case. I am just not seeing why it would be bad.

Editing to correct - meant "sneaking speed" rather than sneak attack speed.

[davmuzl]

As for the sneak attack speed

I actually really like the idea of sneak attack speed- Make the buff you get while sneaking not give melee power but attack speed instead.

[cupajoe]

~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?



Sev~

Yes please. I would love to be able to run a dex based assassin with a very high assassinate DC.

[IronClan]

There would be no reason to ever go with an int build if you did this. It's much easier to get a high dex vs. a high int. High Int requires more investment, AP, etc. you are creating massive ranged and multi-class synergies by doing that.

To me you are just adding an easy button and power creep by doing that. Not to mention, Shadowdancer has a dex-based ability that isn't as good as assassinate, but still if it was too good to give to int-builds now you are giving both to dex-builds.

With that said if you do this, I will certainly exploit it - but I would rather see assassin not become another easy button.

I don't see the easy button, with Harper and KtA Int is significantly stronger DPS than Dex currently. With an All out INT build being able to reach the equivelent of 88-90+ STR in terms of damage mod I don't see a Dex build as a threat. Especially now that Shadow Dodge is going to work as described.

A ranged build whipping out daggers and sneaking in for an assassinate? Yeah that would be terribl.. terrib... terri... terrific. That would be terrific!

I don't see power creep here, can you explain it? Ignoring of course that a non INT rogue pays a price in terms of Rogue skills and trapping (but of course this doesn't matter because this is Forum DDO so we'll ignore it)

[ValariusK]

What approximate timeframe are we looking at for the implementation of the 1st rogue pass?
I ask because its probably next on my list of heroic TRs

[bbqzor]

How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?
Honestly, this would be nice change simply for quality of life and to avoid forcing assassins to try and be "wizards with points in harper" from an itemization standpoint. However, I really dont think its going to do much for either ability in terms of actually getting their DC up the margin it needs to be "plausibly ee". I would much rather see several types of build be possible, and changing off int means less skill points and less search/disable, so its not without its own drawbacks. I dont think theres much of a problem in that regard. Dex can get a bit higher than int so Im sure itll help a little, but not enough to be problematic, mainly itll just permit variety and quality of life.

But I also think both those abilities need good DCs. Not good just in one "the best maximum" setup way, but good at several points along a characters progression, and right now they just arent. Shadow Dagger goes out pretty early, even with 70 int (or dex now) on a pure rogue the dc would be 58, thatll flake in some epic hards even. Assassinate can work up into some EEs of course, but changing to dex alone wont make that any more "plausible" to reach. I will reiterate again that pawning that issue off on items is going to be a poor solution. Bucklers and small shields were not given a sufficient item pass, and they were much bigger changes than assassinate dc in terms of how much player base they affected. And right now, there is no +dc for shadow dagger (nor should there be). Items arent going to fix this, and there is no history of backwards item passes ever being done well enough or complete enough for them to have been "good". A future +10 item is terrible for what it does by proxy to existing players, just as hoping for a past +1 item is unlikely and ultimately unhelpful since it doesnt affect the top which is there the majority of the issues are.

Put another way, its the only class that has to track down some dc boosting item for one of its T5 abilities. The ONLY one. No other class has some item they have to go get to boost an enhancement that doesnt already boost several other things (like +stunning etc). Adding some new item isnt going to suddenly make that any less of a burden or a suddenly better idea. The formulas just need to be nicer, or allow for a little more dc boost in the trees themselves. Like put +2 dc in the assassin capstone, so pure assassins have benefits there over multiclass to keep up with what you can do stat-wise by splitting out. And make shadow dagger add +1 dc per core or something (I mean, it needs more work than that, but theres a starter idea to link it to growing the assassin tree rather than a stat or level). Anyhow you get the idea, hopefully.

So int or dex is a good move, it will open up variety and free assassins from several anchors on them like the limited int itemization and "forced" points into harper. But it also wont address the problem with either shadow dagger or assassinate which is insufficient dc at the top difficulty/build regions, relative to both how the abilities play and how similar abilities work elsewhere.

[Hafeal]

If a raw style where we communicate a lot is preferred ...

It is, it has been, and thank you. We, as players are raw often enough to the devs, allowing for some of that back is good for the players to realize the devs KNOW what they are doing and have thought things through, while, at the same time being willing to consider alternatives. Given the diminished staffing compared to prior years, more reliance on player feedback makes sense. If people need to have a thicker skin and learn to better pause to consider tone and content with their posts - that is a benefit to "raw" style of communication.



It would be nice(since assassinate comes so late) for low level assassins to have some sort of 'from stealth' attack that would give them some sort of advantage in a fight.

As I was listening to DDO Cast debate on the New Player experience, I found myself thinking the same thinking as Torvaldsberg in relation to this thread.



Some comments:

~ The randomized traps in ToEE will probably make a trapper with a good Spot skill valuable. Especially on Epic Elite.

I know you commented earlier about making the game more challenging and the lean to not create a new difficulty setting. While I do not want a new difficulty setting, I do believe in making Elite, particularly and especially, EE, tougher. To me, randomized traps is great move. Let me add, I KNOW the devs have reluctance to 'require' certain class skills for questing. I get it. Randomized traps, however, is a move away from that direction. AND I APPROVE. If EE requires 6 well geared, multiple life, multiple destiny characters working together - with skills only special classes or builds have - then GREAT. Just keep it to EE and not EH or Heroic levels (e.g., reasonable DCs, trap work arounds).




~~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?


My first and immediate thought was this:


There would be no reason to ever go with an int build if you did this. It's much easier to get a high dex vs. a high int. High Int requires more investment, AP, etc. you are creating massive ranged and multi-class synergies by doing that.

To me you are just adding an easy button and power creep by doing that. Not to mention, Shadowdancer has a dex-based ability that isn't as good as assassinate, but still if it was too good to give to int-builds now you are giving both to dex-builds.

With that said if you do this, I will certainly exploit it - but I would rather see assassin not become another easy button.

[dualscissors]

snip...

~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?



Sev~

I'm not seeing where including a Dex-based assassin option would create an unbalanced advantage to Dex builds.

*Both Dex and Int to damage are easily obtained (normal trees for Dex, Harper for Int).

*Dex-based could forego having to take "Insightful Reflexes" for an extra feat to use...but would lose the ability to ~max out as many skills.

*Dex and Int are roughly the same in how high you can go (there aren't tons of sources for Dex or Int like there is for Str).

*Dex doesn't open up any additional Epic Destinies that would play nice. Maxing your Stat for an extra +3 DC still means going Shadowdancer (not FotW, LD or DC).

*Dex builds would gain a respectable DC on Executioner's Strike for a meh 35% chance on a second assassinate-like effect. However this is a tier 5 ability where ED points start to get sparse.

*Going all Dex and secondary Int means your "Know the Angles" will be less effective than Int builds.

*On the other hand, regarding the last point, you could have the option of saving a lot of APs by not buying as deeply into Harper.

*Lastly, Dex makes as much sense for flavor as Int. Dex: you are super precise at placing your blade. Int: you have acute senses and knowledge of anatomical weaknesses.

[redoubt]

Opening up DEX assassinate:

Skill points are not a downside. A rogue gets a base of 8 per level.

Search, spot, DD, OL, UMD is only 5 needed. Can add heal at 2 points per rank and jump. This is with a 10 INT.

Yes, you would have lower search and disable skill, but I used to build ranger/rogues all the time with exactly enough INT to get the 4 core skill and UMD to 23 ranks (It was around 14 INT) and with an INT item was enough to get all the traps.

The part I worry about is no longer needing the harper tree and using dex instead. It frees up a ton of Action Points.

Would you ever consider making Knife in the Darkness and Dagger in the Back use both DEX and INT? If that is too powerful, then I think DEX assassinate is as well. If not, then do both things:

Make the ENTIRE assassin tree both DEX and INT.


If they are trying to challenge heavy armor users with damage it would be far better to replace complete fort bypass with PRR/MRR debuff that reduces PRR/MRR. I don't think this would kill a tank if fortification is working and it would reduce the huge damage spikes on lower PRR characters.

Sev is talking about making EE Temple really hard which is great. But what does "really hard" mean? Hitting twice as hard as now?

Aside from the new champion buffs, a rogue with good fortification mitigates 50-75% of the damage from crits with fortification and maybe 35% or so from PRR. A higher PRR character mitigates 50-75% of the damage from crits with fortification and maybe 65% or so from PRR. This is why I think a PRR/MRR debuff makes more sense than a fortification bypass if the goal is to challenge all builds.

I read the devs say they don't think fort bypass is causing the damage spikes, but I am not understanding how they can say that unless fort bypass is working differently than I think. The last time I had a big damage spike and died it specifically said I was critically hit in the combat log and my fortification is over 150%. I didn't see the monster buff but if I am taking a crit I assume fort bypass has to be one of those.

A PRR debuff hurts low PRR characters more.

[davmuzl]

Lastly, Dex makes as much sense for flavor as Int. Dex: you are super precise at placing your blade. Int: you have acute senses and knowledge of anatomical weaknesses.

Maybe it should use the lower of dex and int because it is hard to actually hit the anatomical weakness?

[slarden]

I don't see power creep here, can you explain it? Ignoring of course that a non INT rogue pays a price in terms of Rogue skills and trapping (but of course this doesn't matter because this is Forum DDO so we'll ignore it)

Only my search goes down a little but my open and disable go up. Balance goes up.

For starters I save 24 points from the harper tree and 1 feat (insightful reflexes) freed up and lose very little compared to what I will gain. It's easier to get dex items (+4 insightful is easy from HH. The only good spot for ins +3 int is goggles at the moment for optimized gear. Then there is tenser's transformation which not only boosts my dex but gives full base attack bonus.

Then there is shadow dodge for more dex and now I have room for no mercy (since I saved 24 AP) in addition to sense weakness to go with a mortal fear weapon. My assassinate DC will be higher.

I think they should approach this good of an improvement with caution.

[davmuzl]

Honestly, this would be nice change simply for quality of life and to avoid forcing assassins to try and be "wizards with points in harper" from an itemization standpoint. However, I really dont think its going to do much for either ability in terms of actually getting their DC up the margin it needs to be "plausibly ee". I would much rather see several types of build be possible, and changing off int means less skill points and less search/disable, so its not without its own drawbacks. I dont think theres much of a problem in that regard. Dex can get a bit higher than int so Im sure itll help a little, but not enough to be problematic, mainly itll just permit variety and quality of life.

But I also think both those abilities need good DCs. Not good just in one "the best maximum" setup way, but good at several points along a characters progression, and right now they just arent. Shadow Dagger goes out pretty early, even with 70 int (or dex now) on a pure rogue the dc would be 58, thatll flake in some epic hards even. Assassinate can work up into some EEs of course, but changing to dex alone wont make that any more "plausible" to reach. I will reiterate again that pawning that issue off on items is going to be a poor solution. Bucklers and small shields were not given a sufficient item pass, and they were much bigger changes than assassinate dc in terms of how much player base they affected. And right now, there is no +dc for shadow dagger (nor should there be). Items arent going to fix this, and there is no history of backwards item passes ever being done well enough or complete enough for them to have been "good". A future +10 item is terrible for what it does by proxy to existing players, just as hoping for a past +1 item is unlikely and ultimately unhelpful since it doesnt affect the top which is there the majority of the issues are.

Put another way, its the only class that has to track down some dc boosting item for one of its T5 abilities. The ONLY one. No other class has some item they have to go get to boost an enhancement that doesnt already boost several other things (like +stunning etc). Adding some new item isnt going to suddenly make that any less of a burden or a suddenly better idea. The formulas just need to be nicer, or allow for a little more dc boost in the trees themselves. Like put +2 dc in the assassin capstone, so pure assassins have benefits there over multiclass to keep up with what you can do stat-wise by splitting out. And make shadow dagger add +1 dc per core or something (I mean, it needs more work than that, but theres a starter idea to link it to growing the assassin tree rather than a stat or level). Anyhow you get the idea, hopefully.

So int or dex is a good move, it will open up variety and free assassins from several anchors on them like the limited int itemization and "forced" points into harper. But it also wont address the problem with either shadow dagger or assassinate which is insufficient dc at the top difficulty/build regions, relative to both how the abilities play and how similar abilities work elsewhere.

A lvl 20 rogue actually already gets +2 assassinate DC. 1 from the last rogue lvl and one for the extra int in the capstone.

Btw iirc the item passes for epic phiarlan and deneith items were great.

[dualscissors]

Maybe it should use the lower of dex and int because it is hard to actually hit the anatomical weakness?

This might be realistic, but (big but) DC builds have to pump everything into one stat. Forcing a second stat - that could not be pumped nearly as high - would just be a major gimping. If assassins (or casters) had to have 2 max stats for DC it would be a death to those builds.

[slarden]

A PRR debuff hurts low PRR characters more.

It would moderate spike damage which is the biggest problem since i get more mitigation from fortification (50-75%) than I do with PRR.

[davmuzl]

Only my search goes down a little but my open and disable go up. Balance goes up.

For starters I save 24 points from the harper tree and 1 feat (insightful reflexes) freed up and lose very little compared to what I will gain. It's easier to get dex items (+4 insightful is easy from HH. The only good spot for ins +3 int is goggles at the moment for optimized gear. Then there is tenser's transformation which not only boosts my dex but gives full base attack bonus.

Then there is shadow dodge for more dex and now I have room for no mercy (since I saved 24 AP) in addition to sense weakness to go with a mortal fear weapon. My assassinate DC will be higher.

I think they should approach this good of an improvement with caution.

There is the +4 int armor from the new madness chain. But I totally agree.

[davmuzl]

This might be realistic, but (big but) DC builds have to pump everything into one stat. Forcing a second stat - that could not be pumped nearly as high - would just be a major gimping. If assassins (or casters) had to have 2 max stats for DC it would be a death to those builds.

This was not ment to be a serious suggestion;)

[dualscissors]

This was not ment to be a serious suggestion;)

Heh, that makes more sense! :-)

[levy1964]

a friend asked me if I go back to pure rogue with the current changes.
my answer? definitely NOT if DPS will not be at least comparable to the revmap classes.
does not matter to me whether assasin should be focused on stealth or acrobat maybe more suitable for DPS

Rogue DPS should be the best, but this "best" cost u worst/bad defense it's a good deal, and this is true so in the PNP and the old DDO (before ED)

so Dev's and player do u remember this "balance"

forgottent thread "DPS Chellange" https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/300873-DPS-Challenge-Part2

oh watch this //"Cetus" vs rogUe// vid from 2011-2012

Round 1 Cetus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDBBEwmIJv8

[levy1964]

Round 2 the RogUe (fight start 3:08)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z60RD3I7lyU

ps.1 now u know thruth, it's a gimp xD
ps.2 forgive my from writing so little change in the thread dedicated to my beloved class but English is not my strong teeth delve deeper discussions knows.

--------------------
levy1964:
- hey Sanjo how long we are togather
Sanjo:
- hmmm...this be, 5 years but...grrrrrr
levy1964:
- whoot ?
Sanjo:
- u bastard, betrayed me with ranger
levy1964:
- oh, come on, u should understand how u poor when u pure
--------------------
ps.3 yo council just add crit bonus or somnthing like that to Sneak Attack (mayby capstone)

[dualscissors]

Only my search goes down a little but my open and disable go up. Balance goes up.

For starters I save 24 points from the harper tree and 1 feat (insightful reflexes) freed up and lose very little compared to what I will gain. It's easier to get dex items (+4 insightful is easy from HH. The only good spot for ins +3 int is goggles at the moment for optimized gear. Then there is tenser's transformation which not only boosts my dex but gives full base attack bonus.

Then there is shadow dodge for more dex and now I have room for no mercy (since I saved 24 AP) in addition to sense weakness to go with a mortal fear weapon. My assassinate DC will be higher.

I think they should approach this good of an improvement with caution.

Off the cuff, going Dex I suppose would still create a temptation for spending a fair bit in Harper, even if it wouldn't be as essential as the current Assassin build (that is to say you need Harper for INT to have a respectable damage stat).

The easy to maintain Know the Angles with a secondary INT of 40 (+15 mod) may not be as good as with an INT of 64 but it's not shabby. INT based would grant an extra ~+7 dmg per hit with Know the Angles (not counting crits) compared to Dex builds.

Harper's Magical Endurance for a significant increase on SPs is very key for keeping Rejuv Cocoon up.

And everywhere you can buy INT-ups you can also buy DEX-ups in Harper.

It would create some diversity in how tempting it is for rogue players to dip heavily into Thief Acrobat (or Mechanic depending on what changes are made) or going deep into Harper.

Good point about Tenser's. While it's a bit of a pain to keep up, it does last long enough for many fights - and there isn't a +4 INT scroll equivalent. For those who'd like the DC for assassinate to be a couple points higher, this would do it! But maybe it would put INT builds a couple DC points behind.

[IronClan]

My first and immediate thought was this:

But first and immediate thoughts are generally based on intuition and not objectivity. INT is better DPS than DEX currently and DEX gets worse when they make Shadow Dodge +3 DEX instead of the current +6. Honestly I think they need to put DEX in as an alternative just to allow DEX to not sink totally into the realm of best dump stat with Wisdom, although I suspect DEX is already in that realm, as I can't come up with even a ranged build that isn't doing 12-13 more base damage per shot with INT*.

You guys see that screen shot of the guy doing three 700+ point crits at level 10? See Know the Angles on his hotbar?

I would really hate to see the Dev's shy away from allowing DEX to assassinate because of immediate gut reactions to it. Especially when DEX while not currently faded out of the popular meta totally, is currently a pretty sub par build choice*.


* Outside of a Shuricannon of course

[IronClan]

Only my search goes down a little but my open and disable go up. Balance goes up.

For starters I save 24 points from the harper tree and 1 feat (insightful reflexes) freed up and lose very little compared to what I will gain. It's easier to get dex items (+4 insightful is easy from HH. The only good spot for ins +3 int is goggles at the moment for optimized gear. Then there is tenser's transformation which not only boosts my dex but gives full base attack bonus.

Then there is shadow dodge for more dex and now I have room for no mercy (since I saved 24 AP) in addition to sense weakness to go with a mortal fear weapon. My assassinate DC will be higher.

I think they should approach this good of an improvement with caution.

You're talking about 3 or 4 points of modifier.... I am talking about 12 or 13 points of modifier...

I've literally already min maxed past where you're currently stopped at. Not meaning this to sound insulting I was also stopped where you are for a while. In fact I had an discussion (ElisDee was involved and may remember the thread I am talking about) and during the process of the discussion weighing the options (or considering the angles as it were) took me from DEX based staff builds using the not WAI +6 Shadow Dodge, to all in for INT. My Current Staff build is INT based because DEX would have been significantly lower DPS.

[Dreppo]

~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?

YES PLEASE, this is sorely needed to make DEX assassin builds even remotely viable again. They were somewhat viable before Harper, because you could decide to pump DEX to emphasize melee DPS (to-hit and dmg mod) vs pump INT to emphasize Assassinate DC. But now with Harper, you literally get everything with INT. To-hit, dmg, Assassinate DC, even more dmg with Know The Angles, oodles of skill points, bonus to key trapping skills, and reflex saves with Insightful Reflexes. Harper simply killed DEX for all builds. Allowing DEX to Assassinate DC is needed just to brings DEX assassins back into the discussion. Most builds will still be INT-based but there will be reasons to consider DEX-based.

[dualscissors]

But first and immediate thoughts are generally based on intuition and not objectivity. INT is better DPS than DEX currently and DEX gets worse when they make Shadow Dodge +3 DEX instead of the current +6. Honestly I think they need to put DEX in as an alternative just to allow DEX to not sink totally into the realm of best dump stat with Wisdom, although I suspect DEX is already the best Dump stat, as I can't come up with even a ranged build that isn't doing 12-13 more base damage per shot with INT*.

You guys see that screen shot of the guy doing three 700+ point crits at level 10? See Know the Angles on his hotbar?

I would really hate to see the Dev's shy away from allowing DEX to assassinate because of immediate gut reactions to it. Especially when DEX while not currently faded out of the popular meta totally, is currently a pretty sub par build choice*.


* Outside of a Shuricannon of course

I can get behind this. (Maybe Wm. Shatner and H. Rollins could too.)

It seems Int is a better DPS stat with assassin and Dex would allow more options to free up a feat and APs.

The Tenser scroll question looms, though, in that a medium length temporary effect for an extra +4 (+2 mod) to Assassinate might be a dealbreaker. I'll let others comment on that point.

[bbqzor]

A lvl 20 rogue actually already gets +2 assassinate DC. 1 from the last rogue lvl and one for the extra int in the capstone.
And the "+2" dc they currently get is more than replicated by several multiclass options. Without actual DC boost, the best way to be an assassin is to stop being rogue, and thats not something I think is good. Staying pure rogue should be equally viable for using a rogue based ability. Adding some more DC to the top end (capstone works, as its most necessary for epics) is the most logical place to address that.


Btw iirc the item passes for epic phiarlan and deneith items were great.
Im not talking about redoing some loot from a pack. Im talking about game-wide systemic changes where they integrate new loot in a backwards compatible fashion. Rune arms was the closest to a well done version of this, but it has many gaps and only a minority of the arms are even decent. The buckler pass added 2 bucklers in epic and that was it (and then 2 more the next expansion, also epic). There are still no new heroic bucklers for anyone actually leveling a swash up. The Light Shield changes brought changes to one singular item, which a ml of 17. From 1-16 there is still only two named light shields in the game. Then, again, they added 2 epic ones which are both mediocre at best.

Point is, saying "we are going to introduce new assassin items" means either A) they will go back and add some, which has never worked out well. Or B) they will ignore the existing problem and add some new one with more dc, but that only creates creep and leaves everyone before that point with the problem.

A better solution is addressing the formulas of both assassinate and shadow dagger to not be terrible. It doesnt create this huge itemization problem. And seriously, again, assassin is the only class/enhancement tree in this boat. Why? It isnt the only instant kill in town anymore, its definitely not the most powerful. Or even second most powerful. So: Why does it require its own special gear demands? Rather than encourage this outdated trend, Id rather see the issue addressed in a manner more consistent with *the whole rest of the game* and just have the formulas be made not-terrible. Itd be much better for the game, and stop tying assassins to forcibly using specific items to keep up with the content, just letting their abilities go up like anyone elses.

[Dreppo]

Only my search goes down a little but my open and disable go up.

Disable is INT-based, not DEX-based. So going DEX-based makes both your search and disable (the two key trapping skills) go down, while open goes up -- but lock DCs are so low that most people don't bother maxing it.

[Monkey-Boy]

a friend asked me if I go back to pure rogue with the current changes.
my answer? definitely NOT if DPS will not be at least comparable to the revmap classes.
does not matter to me whether assasin should be focused on stealth or acrobat maybe more suitable for DPS

Rogue DPS should be the best, but this "best" cost u worst/bad defense it's a good deal, and this is true so in the PNP and the old DDO (before ED)

so Dev's and player do u remember this "balance"

forgottent thread "DPS Chellange" https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/300873-DPS-Challenge-Part2

oh watch this //"Cetus" vs rogUe// vid from 2011-2012

Round 1 Cetus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDBBEwmIJv8

Kyorli's rogue beat this time, Shade never updated his list because he chose to deny reality.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/300873-DPS-Challenge-Part2?p=4225140&viewfull=1#post4225140

[brzytki]

There is the +4 int armor from the new madness chain. But I totally agree.

Have you seen the MDB on that armor? It's attrociously low, like 12, no rogue would ever wear that.

[davmuzl]

Have you seen the MDB on that armor? It's attrociously low, like 12, no rogue would ever wear that.

That's probably because it's not ment to be a rogue item, but if all you want is max out the assassinate DC then you have to consider it.

[dunklezhan]

~ A sneaking assassin seems pretty quick to me, but I admittedly haven't played it in a group since we just finished putting it into Assassin. It will be good feedback from Lamannia.

~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?

~ The way Melee and Ranged Power works is this:

If MP is positive, the multiplier to damage is (100 + Rating)/100.
If MP is negative, the multiplier to damage is 100/(100 + Rating)

Note that many monsters do not currently have any Melee or Ranged Power. (I'd have to check if the champion buffs use MP and RP or just a straight damage boost.)

Sev~

Do you mean: their MP/RP is 0, or do you mean 'they are unaffected by RP/MP'. I mean, I assume the former, as the second would seem... worrisome.

[slarden]

You're talking about 3 or 4 points of modifier.... I am talking about 12 or 13 points of modifier...

I've literally already min maxed past where you're currently stopped at. Not meaning this to sound insulting I was also stopped where you are for a while. In fact I had an discussion (ElisDee was involved and may remember the thread I am talking about) and during the process of the discussion weighing the options (or considering the angles as it were) took me from DEX based staff builds using the not WAI +6 Shadow Dodge, to all in for INT. My Current Staff build is INT based because DEX would have been significantly lower DPS.

I am not insulted I read nothing in your posts to indicate you have more understanding on the matter than I do. I think you are missing too many obvious benefits and I don't mean that to be insulting.

People wouldn't be asking for significant power creep if they weren't planning to use it - that is for certain.

With that said - if they give me the easy button I will take it - I am just not requesting it.

[slarden]

Disable is INT-based, not DEX-based. So going DEX-based makes both your search and disable (the two key trapping skills) go down, while open goes up -- but lock DCs are so low that most people don't bother maxing it.

you are correct but I have never failed on any of these skills and I don't think going dex vs. int will make a difference.

[Hafeal]

But first and immediate thoughts are generally based on intuition and not objectivity.

Absolutely, which is why I reserve the right to change my opinion at any time. :D

[Vyrzain]

.

On the subject of… “Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity”… and more from a Role-Playing angle.
If you do this you are saying that Assassinating someone is not always done by practice / learned skill BUT because he / she has hand-eye coordination and agility?

I am in the camp that Intelligence only should be the mark of a good Assassin and also fear another “easy button and power creep” but I will not hinder others from the Dex type of build.

[dualscissors]

.

On the subject of… “Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity”… and more from a Role-Playing angle.
If you do this you are saying that Assassinating someone is not always done by practice / learned skill BUT because he / she has hand-eye coordination and agility?

I am in the camp that Intelligence only should be the mark of a good Assassin and also fear another “easy button and power creep” but I will not hinder others from the Dex type of build.

I am not sure why "easy button" is a phrase used here. Dex based assassins will be a 2.5 stat build (Dex, Con, some Int). Even with the ease of being able to max Dex for hit/dmg/many skills/assassinate, I tend to think of easy button as meaning an OP combination of self-heals, PRR, DPS, CC...which even a max-Dex rogue isn't going to be guilty of having.

[brzytki]

~ A sneaking assassin seems pretty quick to me, but I admittedly haven't played it in a group since we just finished putting it into Assassin. It will be good feedback from Lamannia. It's nowhere near quick. Please go do a quest with a group of people and do take with you classes that got movement speed boost.


~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy? I'm not a fan. Skill points aside, going DEX would be clearly superior. First, you don't need to burn a feat for Insightful Reflexes. If you don't have +5 DEX tome and had to put a lvl up in DEX to qualify for ISA you'll get your point back. Then we have some APs you can take out of Harper and spend somewhere else, preferably in acrobat tree for Shadow Dodge, No Mercy and/or Defensive Roll. Assassinate DC will be higher for DEX based builds, as some races can start with 20 DEX, Tenser's, Shadow Dodge, Yugo pots(not many people use INT Yugo pots because of -50% fortification penalty but there is practically no penalty in DEX Yugo pots, it's also easier to slot DEX item than an INT item while leveling (meaning there are better-suited rogue items with DEX). Sure, if you actually play in SD you might miss Shadow Manipulation but you'll get 4 ED points to use on something else, like another DEX and/or Executioners Strike.

The way Melee and Ranged Power works is this:

If MP is positive, the multiplier to damage is (100 + Rating)/100.
If MP is negative, the multiplier to damage is 100/(100 + Rating)

Note that many monsters do not currently have any Melee or Ranged Power. (I'd have to check if the champion buffs use MP and RP or just a straight damage boost.)

Sev~
I'm curious, so you DO know the formulas but you still said in your previous post that we'll get 20% damage reduction. The max you can get from these formulas is 17% for a monster going from 10 MP to -10 MP. The more MP a monster has the less of a reduction it is, for example it's only 13% reduction in damage if we go from 50 to 30 MP. So I guess I'm really glad that not many monsters have any MP to begin with and hope you won't be adding much of it to the future monsters.

[Silverleafeon]

~ A sneaking assassin seems pretty quick to me, but I admittedly haven't played it in a group since we just finished putting it into Assassin. It will be good feedback from Lamannia.

Thank you for listening to me on that point.


~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?

I love synergies as they promote more variety in builds which leads to the rich complex character building process we have that is so like the ever popular Magic the Gathering deck building process.

Go ahead, using dex or int sounds great in this situation.



Note that many monsters do not currently have any Melee or Ranged Power. (I'd have to check if the champion buffs use MP and RP or just a straight damage boost.)

Sev~

Melee and Ranged power is more of a heroic thing (better left basically to toons or possibly very rare mobs).

[brzytki]

...allow DEX to not sink totally into the realm of best dump stat with Wisdom, although I suspect DEX is already in that realm... How can DEX be a dump stat now when rogues need at least some investment to get TWF feats and ISA? Unless you mean that after a certain threshold is hit you don't invest in it anymore?


You guys see that screen shot of the guy doing three 700+ point crits at level 10? See Know the Angles on his hotbar?
Yes, and I see a helpless dummy, damage boost and 15 stacks of archers focus. Your point being?

[slarden]

Thank you for listening to me on that point.



What is your reason for not wanting assassins to keep up with party members while in sneak mode? I am confused why you are not ok with something that adds no power and just makes group player easier for rogues but you are ok with massive power creep by letting assassins use a dex modifier? That just makes no sense to me.

[IronClan]

I am not insulted I read nothing in your posts to indicate you have more understanding on the matter than I do. I think you are missing too many obvious benefits and I don't mean that to be insulting.

People wouldn't be asking for significant power creep if they weren't planning to use it - that is for certain.

With that said - if they give me the easy button I will take it - I am just not requesting it.

Actually people could be aware that Dex is already becoming devalued in the current meta and be asking for it because it helps Dex be a more viable option. Not to mention that is fits to have the motor skills of an assassin (hitting the vital spot) be just as vital to killing as intellect (knowing where the vital spot is) You can train a dumb but deft assassin to hit the same place every time, Not sure you can make a smart but clumsy assassin hit that same spot regardless of knowing where he's supposed to strike.

As I said you are talking about gaining 3 or 4 modifier over the basic stat number, and that's with annoying tensors scrolls. I am talking about gaining 12 or 13 modifier over the same basic stat number. It can't be broken down more simply than that. And I am not even arguing with you giving you +4 insightful item when there's light armor with +4 INT. Because I don't need to deal in fractional increases, I'm literally tripling up what a Dex user can achieve with Shadow Dodge (1.5 mod rounded down when they make it WAI) and Tensors (3 mod).

You can also break this down with max Dex and a +7 bonus damage mod from KtA with 40 INT, and get close (within about 1 damage mod), but you're still behind and you're still scrolling Tensors constantly to do it. It does save you 2AP to do this, but regardless it's still less DPS and the more finicky loss of DPS swapping to scroll all the time. If you're going to go the "annoyingly short buffs and clickies" rout you might as well go STR (if we're including other rogues in this discussion) where you will get better damage and better options, including the ability to stun stuff with tactical DC's.

Once they make Shadow Dodge WAI, DEX is third place in this discussion sadly, (it is arguably second place with STR at the moment but will fall off when 3 mod becomes 1.5 mod rounded to 1) making it an option for Assassins is therefore totally sensible, because it's not even a particularly good option for non Assassin's right now.

Now all that said I don't have a problem with trade offs, and the Dex Based Assassin would have a better Assassinate DC by about 3 or 4, the trade off is he would have slightly lower DPS. Nothing wrong with tradeoffs. Especially being as Shadow Dancer has a few abilities which work only with INT or only with DEX. So there are some more choices that must be made with respect to DEX versus INT. More trade offs.

Doh LD doesn't have DEX pips never mind... coulda sworn

[IronClan]

Yes, and I see a helpless dummy, damage boost and 15 stacks of archers focus. Your point being?

My point being he's INT based, not DEX based... Thought that was obvious...

[slarden]

Actually people could be aware that Dex is already becoming devalued in the current meta and be asking for it because it helps Dex be a more viable option. Not to mention that is fits to have the motor skills of an assassin (hitting the vital spot) be just as vital to killing as intellect (knowing where the vital spot is) You can train a dumb but deft assassin to hit the same place every time, Not sure you can make a smart but clumsy assassin hit that same spot regardless of knowing where he's supposed to strike.

As I said you are talking about gaining 3 or 4 modifier over the basic stat number, and that's with annoying tensors scrolls. I am talking about gaining 12 or 13 modifier over the same basic stat number. It can't be broken down more simply than that. And I am not even arguing with you giving you +4 insightful item when there's light armor with +4 INT. Because I don't need to deal in fractional increases, I'm literally tripling up what a Dex user can achieve with Shadow Dodge (1.5 mod rounded down when they make it WAI) and Tensors (3 mod).

You can also break this down with max Dex and a +7 bonus damage mod from KtA with 40 INT, and get close (within about 1 damage mod), but you're still behind and you're still scrolling Tensors constantly to do it. It does save you 2AP to do this, but regardless it's still less DPS and the more finicky loss of DPS swaping to scroll all the time. If you're going to go the "annoyingly short buffs and clickies" rout you might as well go STR where you will get better damage and better options, including the ability to stun stuff.

Once they make Shadow Dodge WAI, DEX is third place in this discussion sadly, (it is arguably second place with STR at the moment but will fall off when 3 mod becomes 1.5 mod) making it an option for Assassins is therefore totally sensible.

It used to require 24 AP to get int-to-hit, int-to-damage and now it takes 10 for just know the angles if you want to use it. You only need 7 more points to take shadow dodge +Dex and that still leaves 7 points which is enough to add 2 more sneak attack dice in the halfing tree.

DPS is only moving one direction - up lol.

As for Tenser's you can use it when you need it against enemies with higher saves. You don't have to run it all the time. It's another bonus along with yugo pots which give you +4 net to hit on sneak attacks instead of the int pots that give -50% fortification. and I didn't use. Yugo pots you can safely run all the time for the dex bonus with no significant drawback.

I take what Turbine gives me. My feedback is that the dex option adds alot of power and that sneak speed bonus helps with group play without adding any power. Based on Silver's response, it sounds like Sev has a few people that are his sounding boards so I am not so sure it matters. As someone that plays a rogue I am not seeing how allowing me to sneak wihle in a party so I can keep up is game-breaking, but I definitely see alot of increased power with the dex option.

I just hope one thing - Sev isn't taking advice from people that don't seriously play a rogue and just calling it a day. I can't imagine anyone that spends serious time playing a rogue not understanding why better sneak speed is good for group play.

[brzytki]

As I said you are talking about gaining 3 or 4 modifier over the basic stat number, and that's with annoying tensors scrolls. I am talking about gaining 12 or 13 modifier over the same basic stat number. It can't be broken down more simply than that. And I am not even arguing with you giving you +4 insightful item when there's light armor with +4 INT. Because I don't need to deal in fractional I'm literally tripling up what a Dex user can achieve with Shadow Dodge (1.5 mod rounded down when they make it WAI) and Tensors (3 mod).

You can also break this down with max Dex and a +7 bonus damage mod from KtA with 40 INT, and get close (within about 1 damage mod), but you're still behind and you're still scrolling Tensors constantly to do it. It does save you 2AP to do this, but regardless it's still less DPS and the more finicky loss of DPS swaping to scroll all the time. If you're going to go the "annoyingly short buffs and clickies" rout you might as well go STR where you will get better damage and better options, including the ability to stun stuff.

Once they make Shadow Dodge WAI, DEX is third place in this discussion sadly, (it is arguably second place with STR at the moment but will fall off when 3 mod becomes 1.5 mod) making it an option for Assassins is therefore totally sensible.
I'm sorry but you are plain wrong if you think INT based assassins will be on par with DEX based ones after this change. Please read my previous post cause I'm writing from my phone and its a little hard for me to type it again.

The damage per hit difference will be low, I'd say not even 7 points it will be negligible in light of what you can gain.That +4 INT armor? Forget it unless you think +1 INT is really worth losing at least 10% dodge. Free feat? Higher reflex and higher chance to trigger Defensive Roll should you drop to 50% health? But the biggest issue why it won't matter its that you'll have 3-5 higher assassinate DC from higher DEX. While Sev repeatedly told us in this very thread that they don't want to give assassins any more DC.

[XodousRoC]

How can DEX be a dump stat now when rogues need at least some investment to get TWF feats and ISA? Unless you mean that after a certain threshold is hit you don't invest in it anymore?
Yes, and I see a helpless dummy, damage boost and 15 stacks of archers focus. Your point being?

No need for a helpless dummy to hit 700+ crits at lvl 10. Build a monksai, take iron strikes, run in master earth stance, and roll a 20 with an SoS in your hand...

[brzytki]

My point being he's INT based, not DEX based... Thought that was obvious...

So he got a few more damage points from KtA, like say 10 for example, which were added to his base damage. Which was then multiplied by his crit profile. Which was then multiplied by helplessness. Which was then multiplied by damage boost. Which was then multiplied by archers focus. See what I'm saying? It's not because he's INT based, it's because he stacked so many multipliers. I thought it was obvious...

[slarden]

How can DEX be a dump stat now when rogues need at least some investment to get TWF feats and ISA? Unless you mean that after a certain threshold is hit you don't invest in it anymore?
Yes, and I see a helpless dummy, damage boost and 15 stacks of archers focus. Your point being?

It's certainly not a dump stat as he claims. Anyone that plays a rogue assassin understand one key number for dex

21

You must have that before any gear, ship buffs, etc. to take improved sneak attack. I have to dump my con a bit to get my dex high enough.

[slarden]

So he got a few more damage points from KtA, like say 10 for example, which were added to his base damage. Which was then multiplied by his crit profile. Which was then multiplied by helplessness. Which was then multiplied by damage boost. Which was then multiplied by archers focus. See what I'm saying? It's not because he's INT based, it's because he stacked so many multipliers. I thought it was obvious...

Absolutely. It's the same reason divine might is used.

[HatsuharuZ]

How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?


I'd say that allowing dexterity or intelligence for those DCs makes those two abilities more viable for a wider variety of races. So please, do this!

Also, could you do the same thing with the shadowdancer ED abilities? I feel that that ED is currently underutilized.

[Bolo_Grubb]

~ A sneaking assassin seems pretty quick to me, but I admittedly haven't played it in a group since we just finished putting it into Assassin. It will be good feedback from Lamannia.

~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?


Sev~

My initial reaction is no don't do that, but maybe after I think about some I might change. My current assassin build does not have Shadow Dagger. And since my gear and build are based on Int, this change would not have any real affect on my character.

If it allows for more variety of builds then it could be a good thing.

[Bobby88888]

~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?

Sev~

No. There is no reason then to play an Int based assassin if Dex becomes an option for Assassinate DC. It is easier to get your Dex higher and it doesn't require the huge investment of AP into Harper for Int to hit/damage. Concerns about not enough skill points are also completely invalid, unless you then dump Int but in that case it is your choice.
This would kill off Int builds except for flavour, and Int makes the class more challenging and fun as opposed to Dex.

Though I think Dex could be applied to Shadow Dagger DC, it is a lacklustre enough ability, let it get more use from Dex builds too since that won't really effect the class overall.

[brzytki]

Absolutely. It's the same reason divine might is used.

Ok, I know it is. My only claim is that 700+ dmg crit in an all-stars-aligned situation is not because he is INT based, or rather it's not that big because of KtA. KtA added 5 dmg to his base assuming he had 30 INT. After all those multipliers, it added total 25-26 dmg. But if you add any other 5 dmg from other source in its place, the result would be the same. Because of multipliers, not because KtA is so good.

[Seikojin]

I think DC's should use full class levels instead of half. Most of the discussion and changes are solid outside of that IMO.

[Failedlegend]

A ranged build whipping out daggers and sneaking in for an assassinate? Yeah that would be terribl.. terrib... terri... terrific. That would be terrific!

A ranged assassin shouldn't need to do that they should be able to assassinate just fine with their bow, throwing weapon or X-Bow.


@Sev: I agree with IC that multi-classing an Assassin is nigh impossible right now and I too would like to see some leeway there

As for Assassinate being the higher of Dex or Int, I'd be down for that especially if/when you add a ranged Assassinate.

[redoubt]

It would moderate spike damage which is the biggest problem since i get more mitigation from fortification (50-75%) than I do with PRR.

Lets look at a 20 PRR debuff.

Going from 200 to 180 PRR is a loss of 2.4% mitigation
Going from 60 to 40 PRR is a loss of 9% mitigation

That's what I was referring too.

Could you explain you position please? I'm not understanding your mitigation from fortification concept.

Thanks.

[Full_Bleed]

No. There is no reason then to play an Int based assassin if Dex becomes an option for Assassinate DC. It is easier to get your Dex higher and it doesn't require the huge investment of AP into Harper for Int to hit/damage. Concerns about not enough skill points are also completely invalid, unless you then dump Int but in that case it is your choice.
This would kill off Int builds except for flavour, and Int makes the class more challenging and fun as opposed to Dex.

Though I think Dex could be applied to Shadow Dagger DC, it is a lacklustre enough ability, let it get more use from Dex builds too since that won't really effect the class overall.

I think this is true.

All we do with this change is swing the pendulum from INT assassins to DEX assassins. Once the *new* dex builds come out it'll be a no-brainer.

If we want to make DEX rogues a more relevant option (which I agree that they should be), then perhaps giving them more sneak-dice would be appropriate. Then people could choose to be better "insta killers" (INT) or higher raw DPS (DEX).

[brzytki]

Just to clarify, I'm not against using DEX for assassinate. I'm saying if you want to change it, you might as well change it to be DEX only, because DEX based assassin will be clearly superior, so there won't be much variety as some people claim there would be.

[slarden]

Lets look at a 20 PRR debuff.

Going from 200 to 180 PRR is a loss of 2.4% mitigation
Going from 60 to 40 PRR is a loss of 9% mitigation

That's what I was referring too.

Could you explain you position please? I'm not understanding your mitigation from fortification concept.

Thanks.

I am saying a 75% debuff to PRR so 200 would count as 50 and 60 would count as 15. But again this would be non-crit damage if people have fortification so the spikes would be nowhere near what they are with complete fort bypass which at a minimum doubles to quadruples the damages. It seems there are other multipliers because some damage seems higher than I would expect.

[redoubt]

I think this is true.

All we do with this change is swing the pendulum from INT assassins to DEX assassins. Once the *new* dex builds come out it'll be a no-brainer.

If we want to make DEX rogues a more relevant option (which I agree that they should be), then perhaps giving them more sneak-dice would be appropriate. Then people could choose to be better "insta killers" (INT) or higher raw DPS (DEX).

I had always though of assassins as INT based and acrobats as DEX based (but I don't play an acrobat.) Is this not the case?

[RTN]

~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?


I think this risks creating powerful synergies too easily.

[redoubt]

I am saying a 75% debuff to PRR so 200 would count as 50 and 60 would count as 15. But again this would be non-crit damage if people have fortification so the spikes would be nowhere near what they are with complete fort bypass which at a minimum doubles to quadruples the damages. It seems there are other multipliers because some damage seems higher than I would expect.

I think I'm following you now:

1. Remove fort bypass buff
2. Replace it with a -75% PRR debuff

200-50 PRR is a 33% drop for high PRR
60-15 is a 24% drop for low PRR

Fortification still stands to stop critical hits.

[bbqzor]

Just to clarify, I'm not against using DEX for assassinate. I'm saying if you want to change it, you might as well change it to be DEX only, because DEX based assassin will be clearly superior, so there won't be much variety as some people claim there would be.

Not exactly. It depends what people come up with now, and down the road.

Like for example, pre harper you couldnt run an int based barbarian multiclass guy, now you can. Suppose artificers 3rd tree helps out int base. Suppose a 12 rog assassin/artificer running off int becomes all the rage, with new rog mechanic tree synergy and this third arty tree helping support a T5 assassin. Theres no way to know because its not out yet.

Having dex/int available means a better future, even if its roughly equal now. You think dex would be drastically superior, okay, so change your rog to dex. There are +11 int/dex items, and +4 dex/int insightful items, and destinies offer +6 to either. The "huge difference" amounts to some differences in accessibility to some enhancements.

Thats the ONE thing that is CERTAIN to continue to change as they go through the rest of the enhancement passes. Especially mechanic... whos to say rogues wont get a "combat trapper" enhancement there which parallels shadow dodge only works for int? I wouldnt try to shove assassins into any corner with this other stuff not only subject to change, but guaranteed to change.

Dex or Int solves some problems. Its overall more helpful than forcing it onto int. The rest need to be addressed by a change to the DC formula on assassinate and shadow dagger, because neither score fixes the DC issues, and saying items will do it is a disservice on multiple fronts. Again, why are only assassins required to gear up their T5 enhancement dc. And why is that okay. Dex or int isnt the problem there.

[slarden]

I think I'm following you now:

1. Remove fort bypass buff
2. Replace it with a -75% PRR debuff

200-50 PRR is a 33% drop for high PRR
60-15 is a 24% drop for low PRR

Fortification still stands to stop critical hits.

Yes so everyone is feeling more pain without the extreme damage #s. I think if they do this they can safely amp up champions without the one-shotting. But I seem to recall dev posts challenging the idea that one-shotting is coming from fortification bypass. For me when I've been dead it always says I was critically hit which is why I think IT IS the source of one-shotting. The devs said they have data that proved otherwise, but didn't elaborate.

[Soleran100]

It's certainly not a dump stat as he claims. Anyone that plays a rogue assassin understand one key number for dex

21

You must have that before any gear, ship buffs, etc. to take improved sneak attack. I have to dump my con a bit to get my dex high enough.

Why is 21 important anymore when OC is now available for all rogues?

I realize that there are reasons to want more SA but there are alot of limitations to sneak attack moments as well which can make OC a viable alternative.

[Qezuzu]

Can someone show me a break down of how high one can get their DEX?

I'm just not seeing the OP-ness of a DEX Assassin with DEX Assassinate. INT builds will always be good due to KtA anyway.


Why is 21 important anymore when OC is now available for all rogues?

I realize that there are reasons to want more SA but there are alot of limitations to sneak attack moments as well which can make OC a viable alternative.


alternative

You take both of them.

[slarden]

Why is 21 important anymore when OC is now available for all rogues?

I realize that there are reasons to want more SA but there are alot of limitations to sneak attack moments as well which can make OC a viable alternative.

I take both feats - one @ 21 and the other @ 24. I even take past life rogue: sneak of shadows for more sneak attack damage at heroic levels.

[slarden]

Can someone show me a break down of how high one can get their DEX?

I'm just not seeing the OP-ness of a DEX Assassin with DEX Assassinate. INT builds will always be good due to KtA anyway.

You take both of them.

The issue isn't just dex, but with Tenser's and a "working better than intended" Shadow Dodge and a Yugo pot that you can safely use all the time is +12 for +10 vs int or +5 to your assassinate when Sev previously declined to consider buffing assassinate. If they do go with this dex option the capstone should should include a higher int bonus for sure. +4 int with no dex bonus.

If you can fit no mercy in (which is definitely do-able for a dex build and not for an int bulid) you can combine it with sense weakness to turn mortal fear into an insta-killer for helpless.

[FlaviusMaximus]

Right now, Int based is the only way to go for an Assassin that assassinates. If Dex is added as an option, dex based will be the only way to go for an Assassin. It wouldn't be adding a second option. It would be replacing one single option with another.

I would like to see both dex and int be primary stat options for Assassins who want to assassinate, but I believe it would require some finessing. For one thing, making Shadow Dodge a multi-selector between dex and int, while it may not make any logical sense in the Acrobat tree, would help Int based assassins not get left in the dust. Tensers would be a concern as well.


If they do go with this dex option the capstone should should include a higher int bonus for sure. +4 int with no dex bonus.

Doing something like that instead might make more sense. It would be nice to see dex and int getting the same dc, with int providing a bit more dps/better trapping and dex providing more defense.

[brzytki]

snipThat I could agree with. But you have to admit it all hinges on the "if mechanic gets something that has a good synergy with assassin", so I'll agree to withhold my opinion about making it DEX only. When the Arti pass comes, we can return to the topic as well, no need to change it half year or more before a pass which doesn't even guarantee good multiclassing option for assassins.


Can someone show me a break down of how high one can get their DEX?

I'm just not seeing the OP-ness of a DEX Assassin with DEX Assassinate. INT builds will always be good due to KtA anyway.

Same as your INT on live but add 1 insightful, 2 Yugo pot, 2 race, 3 shadow dodge, 4 Tensers (burst), 2 completionist ?(free feat), possibly 1-2 more from SD (depending on how many you have now, I have 4 now and would have 5-6 if DEX).

But it's not only about max DEX. It gives other already mentioned tasty perks.

[bbqzor]

That I could agree with. But you have to admit it all hinges on the "if mechanic gets something that has a good synergy with assassin", so I'll agree to withhold my opinion about making it DEX only. When the Arti pass comes, we can return to the topic as well, no need to change it half year or more before a pass which doesn't even guarantee good multiclassing option for assassins.
Well, not just those two. I mean no one really "saw" harper coming and that helped a number of builds. I just dont see the point in limiting builds here when its not really doing anything bad to permit it. Variety, and future variety, are critical to the success of ddo. An open door for the future is better than being locked in the cellar hoping youre not forgotten. I think anyone playing this game for a couple years has found at least one character in that position before.


Same as your INT on live but add 1 insightful, 2 Yugo pot, 2 race, 3 shadow dodge, 4 Tensers (burst), 2 completionist ?(free feat), possibly 1-2 more from SD (depending on how many you have now, I have 4 now and would have 5-6 if DEX).

Whether you use them or not, for whatever reason, the only ones off that list which are actually unequal numerically are tensers and shadow dodge. Thats at most 3-4 dc change, helpful but hardly breaking anything or forcing one build over another given there are perks to either stat. I think other factors (which items or other enhancements you like, if you want tactics too, if youre pure rogue or multiclass, etc) will then be the deciding factor. And the enhancement one (shadow dodge) could just as easily go another direction in the future as more enhancement changes come. So really its like, way the game sits now you might gain 4 dc, but 2 of it is potential flux regardless so really, if youre willing to run tensers 24/7 you could get 2 dc. Thats not something to really worry over I think.

The biggest "mainstream" combo I see is an assassin rog monk splash with wind stance and shadow dodge but I think such a build would be so fragile, who cares. Killing one mob every 15 seconds tops isnt really worth the terrible, terrible prr and low hp such a build would have. In any content you actually needed the dc, youd also not really be able to survive. It might totally win at EH but like anything can kind of be built to do that so meh. I mean if it was that big a deal, roll swash, and then have prr/hp too.

Its a non issue. Worst balance case, assassin winds up somewhat closer in baby steps to swash and everyone rejoices. Best balance case, it means you can now do more than one singular int-or-nothing build to get a "working" (for assassinate anyhow) dc. As for shadow dagger, its so terrible Ive never seen it used in any serious fashion. So if that somehow becomes playable hey +1. Otherwise itll be ignored like it is now and no change.

[redoubt]

If DEX is added to assassinate, then add:

1. Knife in the Darkness: INT to hit with daggers and kukris

2. Dagger in the Back: INT to damage with daggers and kukris

3. Executioner's Strike: Allow INT or DEX in the formula

Why? Adding dex to assassinate allows all those things to be done on one stat without requiring the Harper Tree. If you allow a DEX build access to all of that and the free Action Points from not buying INT to hit/damage over in Harper, then DEX will be the a clearly better build. By allowing ALL the abilities to choose between DEX and INT you preserve INT as an option.

[amsharkwei]

Assassnate DC now is 10+rogue level+INT mod+DEXmod

that's cool!

[Chaios]

~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins?
The only advantage a DEX build has over an INT build is the potential for more AC. If AC doesn't matter, then changing it that way wont matter, except to improve the DC for DEX builds, of course. I think changing the save from fortitude to reflex is a better way to keep the DC in a practical range for either type build.

[CThruTheEgo]

~ A sneaking assassin seems pretty quick to me, but I admittedly haven't played it in a group since we just finished putting it into Assassin. It will be good feedback from Lamannia.

Depending on the order in which the bonuses and penalties are calculated, a pure assassin with faster sneaking and the acrobat movement speed bonus will have either 90% or 95% base movement speed while sneaking. Either way, it's still behind the movement speed of any characters that are not sneaking, which means the assassin will inevitably lag behind the group if trying to stay in stealth mode for any length of time. This becomes even more pronounced when you consider that monks, barbs, fighters, paladins, and bards are all able to move at above 100% base movement speed. So basically a sneaking assassin will be slower than every other melee, significantly slower than the majority of them.

Assassins are the only build in the entire game with a built in incentive to sneak, so this is really just a quality of life issue for the assassin playstyle and removing the movement speed penalty for them would not create any imbalance whatsoever.


~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?

I personally don't care if it remains int based, as I'll probably stay with that even if it is changed, but I don't see a problem with this. I think it will add some variety, in fact. Int based will still be the optimal choice for dps due to know the angles. Dex based will be able to get a slightly higher assassinate DC, but only by a couple DCs. Those extra DCs are not really needed btw, as it is already possible to get an effective assassinate DC for endgame content.

There is plenty of dex available in the harper tree so a dex based assassin will still have good incentive to invest there. But they will also be able to get dex from either/both of the other rogue trees, so they would have the flexibility to take advantage of whatever those trees have to offer an assassin after the revamp.

Tenser's scrolls are a very short duration and anyone who has tried to keep up displacement using scrolls knows the limitations of this. So I don't see this as being too powerful. And I don't see any particular synergies that dex based would offer to create an OP build.


~ The way Melee and Ranged Power works is this:

If MP is positive, the multiplier to damage is (100 + Rating)/100.
If MP is negative, the multiplier to damage is 100/(100 + Rating)

Note that many monsters do not currently have any Melee or Ranged Power. (I'd have to check if the champion buffs use MP and RP or just a straight damage boost.)

So for monsters which do not currently have any melee or ranged power, are they still coded to be affected by a melee power debuff? In other words, does the debuff from weakening strikes still reduce their damage output? If yes, then great. But if no, then this enhancement is too ineffective and we need something that will work against all mobs.

Thanks for keeping the discussion going. Has there been any talk about changing measure the foe to fade 1 stack every 6 seconds instead of all at once after 10 seconds?

[CThruTheEgo]

It might still not be enough to make assassinate usable in endgame content.


However, I really dont think its going to do much for either ability in terms of actually getting their DC up the margin it needs to be "plausibly ee"

...snip...

But it also wont address the problem with either shadow dagger or assassinate which is insufficient dc at the top difficulty/build regions, relative to both how the abilities play and how similar abilities work elsewhere.

Assassinate is usable and effective in endgame content. See the assassin in my sig for a build with a 74 DC assassinate, 69 without measure the foe.


There would be no reason to ever go with an int build if you did this. It's much easier to get a high dex vs. a high int. High Int requires more investment, AP, etc. you are creating massive ranged and multi-class synergies by doing that.

As long as assassinate is based off of rogue level, there are no multi-class synergies. Assassins are feat starved, so they aren't going to be investing in both melee and ranged. This change may allow a few more flavor builds that will do fine in heroics, but no multi-class assassin is going to be optimal in endgame.

[nibel]

~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?

Know the Angles is a major DPS boost for Int-based characters. A Dex-based rogue probably will still have decent int because of skill points and trap skills (Search and Disable are Int-based). People are saying they will save a feat on Insightful Reflex, but that is not really bad, rogues are feat-starved. I believe dex-based assassination might have a better DC, but an int-based rogue will have better trap skills, and possibly better DPS because of KtA (need to run the numbers).

Also, I like options. More options are always good.

[CThruTheEgo]

I am not sure why "easy button" is a phrase used here. Dex based assassins will be a 2.5 stat build (Dex, Con, some Int). Even with the ease of being able to max Dex for hit/dmg/many skills/assassinate, I tend to think of easy button as meaning an OP combination of self-heals, PRR, DPS, CC...which even a max-Dex rogue isn't going to be guilty of having.

Agreed.


It used to require 24 AP to get int-to-hit, int-to-damage and now it takes 10 for just know the angles if you want to use it.

It's 24 AP to get all 4 int available from harper, but it's only 12 AP to get int to hit and damage, as it always has been. It's also only 8 AP to get know the angles. That has not changed either.

[hi_sa1nt]

Assassinate is usable and effective in endgame content. See the assassin in my sig for a build with a 74 DC assassinate, 69 without measure the foe.



As long as assassinate is based off of rogue level, there are no multi-class synergies. Assassins are feat starved, so they aren't going to be investing in both melee and ranged. This change may allow a few more flavor builds that will do fine in heroics, but no multi-class assassin is going to be optimal in endgame.

You assassinate 100% in endgame? I doubt it. It's easy to get a 100% success rate on coup de grace with a dc in the 100s... but not so much on assassinate.

[Ayseifn]

Can someone show me a break down of how high one can get their DEX?

I'm just not seeing the OP-ness of a DEX Assassin with DEX Assassinate. INT builds will always be good due to KtA anyway.



3 shadow dodge(most likely only a bonus of 1-2 as AP is really tight)
4 tenser's transformation
2 yugo pots without a hit to fortification
+11/+4 items are easier to slot

The scroll would mostly be used just for assassinate DCs, thing is though that and 2 from Shadow Dodge is the same bonus that you get from Shadowdancer so you can have the same DC or better than an INT assassin while rocking LD.

So INT will be better in heroic and DEX better in epic, if more +DEX is added to rogues then it just imbalances things further and TBH I'd really like to see some more DEX in acrobat because it's pretty weak compared to STR and maybe even INT as main stats.

[CThruTheEgo]

You assassinate 100% in endgame? I doubt it. It's easy to get a 100% success rate on coup de grace with a dc in the 100s... but not so much on assassinate.

In EE Stormhorns, where you'll still find the highest fort saves, I had an 80% success rate on the higher fort mobs (and that was with only 0-2 stacks of measure the foe, I don't keep it at max all the time but do drop into sneak as I get into position for an assassinate), 100% on higher fort mobs with full stacks of measure the foe, and 100% on other mobs. In any content below that, it's a 100% success rate. I would qualify that as effective.

[Dreppo]

If DEX is added to assassinate, then add:

1. Knife in the Darkness: INT to hit with daggers and kukris

2. Dagger in the Back: INT to damage with daggers and kukris

3. Executioner's Strike: Allow INT or DEX in the formula

Why? Adding dex to assassinate allows all those things to be done on one stat without requiring the Harper Tree. If you allow a DEX build access to all of that and the free Action Points from not buying INT to hit/damage over in Harper, then DEX will be the a clearly better build. By allowing ALL the abilities to choose between DEX and INT you preserve INT as an option.

Excellent suggestions. Continuing on with the theme...

4. Strategic Combat I: DEX mod to hit with any melee or missile weapon (not just daggers and kukris)

5. Know the Angles: DEX mod/2 extra damage and tactical DCs

6. Strategic Combat II: DEX mod to damage with any melee or missile weapon (not just daggers and kukris)

7. Shadow Manipulation: DEX mod to DC

8. Consume: DEX mod to DC

I think you are underestimating (or purposely ignoring) the many advantages INT has right now. It's so lop-sided in favor of INT it isn't even funny. Do you really want to go down the road of completely equalizing DEX and INT across the board? I think they should each retain some unique strengths and weaknesses, so that there are builds that are somewhat differentiated and play a little differently but are still viable. Build variety is good. The problem is a DEX-based pure assassin in today's game is a "flavor" build only, and that's just not right. It's not only well behind INT-based but also behind STR-based.

[HuneyMunster]

Dex assassinate would be at least 4 higher than int build with 3 from shadow dodge, 4 from tenser and 1 more insightful from Mystic Eidolons. You could even take just 2 dex from harper and take Cartwheel Charge for 2 dex for 30secs after tumbling and gain another 6 max dodge bonus with

'Tumbler: You also gain +2 to maximum Dodge.'
'Kip Up: You also gain +2 to maximum Dodge.'
'Cartwheel Charge: Passive: You also gain +2 to maximum Dodge.'
added to:
'Light Armor Mastery: While wearing light armor you gain 2/4/6 to maximum dexterity bonus'

Also defensive roll would become a great feat for assassins as it shouldn't be too difficulty to get about 90+ reflex saves at cap for so will most likely only take half dmg at when at below 50% hp when its really needed and you didn't make a dodge, incorporeal or concealment to avoid.

It would also make Shadar-Kai more appealing as a choice for assassin.

[slarden]

It's 24 AP to get all 4 int available from harper, but it's only 12 AP to get int to hit and damage, as it always has been. It's also only 8 AP to get know the angles. That has not changed either.

Yes you are right I was including all 4 Int in my original calculation for 24 and Know the Angles is only 8 total - I was including dex from the core for a total 10 and I should have kept going and added another dex from tier 2 to bring the total to 12 pts total for 2 dx + know the angles and a few other benefits. I should have stated that more clearly that I was also trying to optimize stats also.

Tenser's I wouldn't keep scrolled on all the time. I would use it as a consumable when I needed a higher DC. It's not a problem to take 2 seconds to scroll tensers before an assassinate if I need the DC, but I agree I am not going to bother casting it in the middle of combat. I am sure Tenser's will be included in every DC calculation we see with new dex-based assassins so it's worth counting as a situational DC boost. I never count yugo int pots because the -50% fortification penalty is too much, but the dex pots penalty is really no penalty at all so those definitely count as a boost.

[CThruTheEgo]

+11/+4 items are easier to slot

The neck is a valuable slot for an assassin, so Necklace of Mystic Eidolons has some trade offs. If the neck slot is taken, that leaves only the Mythic Muffled Veneer for +4 assassinate, which is a luck based grind and is not easy to obtain.

There's also the Shroud of Ardent which offers 30 PRR/MRR and heal amp 60. Those will not be easy to replace. Sheltering 30 is also on Mythic Minos, which is just as tedious to acquire as the Veneer and that competes with it, and Dumathoin's Bracers from a raid that is rarely run anymore. If you don't use one of those, you have to lose some PRR/MRR. The bracers also compete for the Epic Ethereal Bracers which are one source for deadly 10 and, more importantly, insight saves 4 which can help to push a rogue's will save into usable levels to take advantage of slippery mind. So I don't think gearing will be easy on a dex based assassin.

[slarden]

Unless it changed recently,

I always used to get +2/+4/+6 dex from shadow dodge and not +1/+2/+3. This has been brought up on the forums many times and the devs have never come out and said which is right.

It's been this way for as long as I can remember and the devs must have known about it for a long time.

People keep counting it as only +3 in calcs, but it gives +6 unless that changed recently.

[Dreppo]

People keep counting it as only +3 in calcs, but it gives +6 unless that changed recently.

It is changing in the enhancement pass. Look at the Thief-Acrobat thread for details.

[slarden]

It is changing in the enhancement pass. Look at the Thief-Acrobat thread for details.

Ah ok didn't notice that. Thank you.

[Ayseifn]

The neck is a valuable slot for an assassin, so Necklace of Mystic Eidolons has some trade offs. If the neck slot is taken, that leaves only the Mythic Muffled Veneer for +4 assassinate, which is a luck based grind and is not easy to obtain.

There's also the Shroud of Ardent which offers 30 PRR/MRR and heal amp 60. Those will not be easy to replace. Sheltering 30 is also on Mythic Minos, which is just as tedious to acquire as the Veneer and that competes with it, and Dumathoin's Bracers from a raid that is rarely run anymore. If you don't use one of those, you have to lose some PRR/MRR. The bracers also compete for the Epic Ethereal Bracers which are one source for deadly 10 and, more importantly, insight saves 4 which can help to push a rogue's will save into usable levels to take advantage of slippery mind. So I don't think gearing will be easy on a dex based assassin.

Good points, I'm still hunting for the elusive Mythic Muffled Veneer.

[HuneyMunster]

The neck is a valuable slot for an assassin, so Necklace of Mystic Eidolons has some trade offs. If the neck slot is taken, that leaves only the Mythic Muffled Veneer for +4 assassinate, which is a luck based grind and is not easy to obtain.

There's also the Shroud of Ardent which offers 30 PRR/MRR and heal amp 60. Those will not be easy to replace. Sheltering 30 is also on Mythic Minos, which is just as tedious to acquire as the Veneer and that competes with it, and Dumathoin's Bracers from a raid that is rarely run anymore. If you don't use one of those, you have to lose some PRR/MRR. The bracers also compete for the Epic Ethereal Bracers which are one source for deadly 10 and, more importantly, insight saves 4 which can help to push a rogue's will save into usable levels to take advantage of slippery mind. So I don't think gearing will be easy on a dex based assassin.


You could drop Field Optics for Epic Mentau's Goggles for Seeker, drop Consuming Darkness for Beholder Ring for int and use Iron Mits for heal amp and vitality 40 instead of Gloves of the Master Illusionist and slot +2 int augment. This just leaves PRR/MRR and as far as I know best augment is only 14.

[CThruTheEgo]

Good points, I'm still hunting for the elusive Mythic Muffled Veneer.

As am I, although I haven't been putting much effort into it recently because I've been focused on another character.


You could drop Field Optics for Epic Mentau's Goggles for Seeker, drop Consuming Darkness for Beholder Ring for int and use Iron Mits for heal amp and vitality 40 instead of Gloves of the Master Illusionist and slot +2 int augment. This just leaves PRR/MRR and as far as I know best augment is only 14.

Yeah that's an interesting option. When I get some time in the next day or two, I'm going to go through all the details, including gear, of changing my build from int based to dex based, just to see what the actual results would be.

EDIT: PRR/MRR augments go up to +16. Also, PRR/MRR 24 is on the Guardian's Ring from What Goes Up end reward.

[redoubt]

I think you are underestimating (or purposely ignoring) the many advantages INT has right now. It's so lop-sided in favor of INT it isn't even funny.

The advantage of INT is that it is in the assassinate DC formula.

Saying that you need a high INT to be a trapper is false. I played a ranger rogue with only 1 rogue level for years and a starting INT of only 14. And you only need 4 skills, all of which are 1 point per rank for a rogue. A rogue gets 8 per level base, so even if you dumped INT at 8, you would still get 7 per level. Does INT help boost search and DD? Yes. You could also take the saved harper action points and put them into search & disable enhancements. You could (not that I think its a great idea) use the free feat from not taking insightful reflexes to boost you skills. Having all the social skills on your rogue is handy, but hardly game altering.


Do you really want to go down the road of completely equalizing DEX and INT across the board?

No, I don't. I'd be happy to keep things unique. That is part of why I think bringing DEX into assassinate is a bad idea.


I think they should each retain some unique strengths and weaknesses, so that there are builds that are somewhat differentiated and play a little differently but are still viable. Build variety is good.

If having everything in the assassin tree is good for DEX builds, why is it bad to have all those same things available to INT builds? Lets go back in time...

Many of us asked for INT to hit/damage in the assassin tree. What we got was the Harper tree instead. Points had to be pulled out of the racial and rogue trees to go over to Harper to get what should have been in assassin from the start. My guess is, and maybe a dev will comment, that it was considered too powerful to get the same stat for hit/damage/DC all in the same tree. DEX to assassinate would set up the same level of power as adding INT to the to/damage core enhancements, but would be cheaper and free up a feat.

IF INT to hit and damage move to the assassin cores, you would have a more realistic choice to make. Now you can choose DEX and get:
- higher DC
- free feat
- less skill points
- slightly lower trapskills (but still high enough to not crit fail.)

Or you could choose to go INT and get
- workable, but lower DC
- have to spend a feat on reflex save
- get loads more skill points to spend on things like haggle and intimidate (party crashers and crucible, right?)
- high enough trap skills to have critical successes on a 2.

If they don't want to add INT to hit/damage in assassin to continue to get people to buy Harper, so be it. But adding DEX to assassinate, and not addressing INT to hit/damage within the assassin tree, will eclipse INT builds. Even if a dex build still invests in Harper, you don't have to invest as much, so you save AP. You also free up a feat from not taking Insightful Reflexes. That is significant


The problem is a DEX-based pure assassin in today's game is a "flavor" build only, and that's just not right. It's not only well behind INT-based but also behind STR-based.

There are no DEX based assassins because the DC stat is INT. Its like saying there are no STR based sorcerers.

[Nothingtoseehere]

The advantage of INT is that it is in the assassinate DC formula.

Saying that you need a high INT to be a trapper is false. I played a ranger rogue with only 1 rogue level for years and a starting INT of only 14. And you only need 4 skills, all of which are 1 point per rank for a rogue. A rogue gets 8 per level base, so even if you dumped INT at 8, you would still get 7 per level. Does INT help boost search and DD? Yes. You could also take the saved harper action points and put them into search & disable enhancements. You could (not that I think its a great idea) use the free feat from not taking insightful reflexes to boost you skills. Having all the social skills on your rogue is handy, but hardly game altering.



No, I don't. I'd be happy to keep things unique. That is part of why I think bringing DEX into assassinate is a bad idea.



If having everything in the assassin tree is good for DEX builds, why is it bad to have all those same things available to INT builds? Lets go back in time...

Many of us asked for INT to hit/damage in the assassin tree. What we got was the Harper tree instead. Points had to be pulled out of the racial and rogue trees to go over to Harper to get what should have been in assassin from the start. My guess is, and maybe a dev will comment, that it was considered too powerful to get the same stat for hit/damage/DC all in the same tree. DEX to assassinate would set up the same level of power as adding INT to the to/damage core enhancements, but would be cheaper and free up a feat.

IF INT to hit and damage move to the assassin cores, you would have a more realistic choice to make. Now you can choose DEX and get:
- higher DC
- free feat
- less skill points
- slightly lower trapskills (but still high enough to not crit fail.)

Or you could choose to go INT and get
- workable, but lower DC
- have to spend a feat on reflex save
- get loads more skill points to spend on things like haggle and intimidate (party crashers and crucible, right?)
- high enough trap skills to have critical successes on a 2.

If they don't want to add INT to hit/damage in assassin to continue to get people to buy Harper, so be it. But adding DEX to assassinate, and not addressing INT to hit/damage within the assassin tree, will eclipse INT builds. Even if a dex build still invests in Harper, you don't have to invest as much, so you save AP. You also free up a feat from not taking Insightful Reflexes. That is significant



There are no DEX based assassins because the DC stat is INT. Its like saying there are no STR based sorcerers.

Exactly. All the benefits would be on dex builds. I think you are all over estimating KtA as well. If you still grab it on dex build you will get 10 less damage from it tops, which you can more than make up for with either no mercy/ improved defensive roll from acrobat or if you are a halfling or shadar-kai you can grab the bonus dodge/dogde cap and SA dice to also make up the small damage drop from a temporary boost and also gain defences on top of that. Not to mention the feat you get back.

Dex is in no way a dump stat for assassins in the current game. It boosts your hide and move silently which is basically the secondary DC on Assassinate anyway so really Assassinate already has dex and int in its DC formula and the proposed idea lets you swap it to just dex. (My assassin runs with Dex as 2nd highest stat for this reason, and sneaking is fun until you get left behind).



So you want to put dex builds back on the table? Put them as the higher DPS build again. Add to capstone: Your SA damage now benefits from an extra % of melee power based on your dex (mod, 2xmod, or score, etc.).
ie. say I have 70 dex SA dmg now scales with 130%, 160% or 170% or whatever. Since it seems you arent keen on putting any damage boost into assassin as a straight thing for all this is another way to boost assasssin DPS and put dex builds as an option for those who want to play them, the DPS rog. I imagine I just swung the pendulum way too far in that example since dex already saves on AP and feats and stats allowing for much greater versatility, defences and damage vs higher assassinate DC on an int build.
Really it should just be a passive bonus to damage regardless of stats or make it use higher of dex, int or str (str used to be DPS king of rog so we can't leave them out if we talking int v dex!!!!!!) :P

Basically letting Dex to assassinate DC completely kills Int based assassins and this suggestion has made me wonder why I should bother playing an Assassin if you are going to do this. It will kill the class as we know it completely and make assassinating into something of an "easy button".

If you want to boost assassinate open it up to orange named mobs, bypass db/dw and give special debuff to red/purple named. Dex to assassinate is not the answer and will ruin the PrE.



And the reducing enemy MP from poison might not be a good idea now I think about it more simply because the 200 PRR guy next to you also gets his damage reduced and if anything it should be increased on him. Some way to make this calculated for only you or just light armour wearers (I got nothing against party buffs/abilities but, having not looked into how it would all stack I am concerned about it working with the high PRR toon next to you who is already basically invincible. If this doesn't have much effect there ignore this :) )

[brzytki]

People think of KtA as if it's still pre-Harper tree era. KtA was so good because previously assassins didn't have INT to-hit, INT to damage or any extra damage from their main stat. But after Harper, they suddenly got a major boost in DPS department.

But if we switch from INT to DEX, we get to-hit and damage for free from the first to cores. That leaves KtA. Switching from INT to DEX doesn't mean we lose all the benefits of KtA, the DEX assassin will still use it. He will have like 30 points lower INT than before, meaning 15 mod, meaning 7-8 damage. But we already established that the DEX based rogue will have 8-10 higher sustainable DEX than INT today on live (capstone, Yugo, shadow dodge, insightful, race, ED and/or completionist), closing the DPS difference to 1-3 points of damage per hit. And we haven't even talked about all other benefits of freeing APs and a feat, like gaining more dodge, defensive roll, higher reflex save and so on.

[CThruTheEgo]

But we already established that the DEX based rogue will have 8-10 higher sustainable DEX than INT today on live (capstone, Yugo, shadow dodge, insightful, race, ED and/or completionist)

This is not correct. Both would get +2 dex in the capstone so neither has an advantage. Both can use Yugo pots, the difference is dex based gets +50% fortification. I currently use Yugo pots on my assassin and do not have a problem with the fort penalty. This may free up a twist slot for dex based by not having to twist brace for impact. Both have a racial option for a 20 starting stat, so there's no racial advantage to dex based. The top two optimal races for an int based assassin currently are human or drow. Drow can get 20 starting int and 2 more from the racial tree. Human is only 3 stat points behind either an int or dex based race but also gets damage boost. If anything, dex based simply increases the number of optimal racial options for an assassin. I currently invest in all 6 points of int in the ED and I don't miss anything in shadowdancer by doing so, so this is a wash also. Currently, completionist is an option on either human or drow. It is easier on a human due to the extra feat, but is also possible on a drow. See nokowi's build for a drow completionist assassin. If you're not concerned with fitting in epic toughness, as I am, then there is plenty of room for completionist on any race, and a completionist has less reason to need/want epic toughness.

So the only difference is 3 dex from shadow dodge and 1 insightful. That's only 2 DCs. The insightful also creates a lot of gearing problems as I mentioned in a post above. Tenser's is not sustainable as a damage boost, but could be used to boost DCs when needed. How dex based affects what is lost/gained in how AP are spent is difficult to determine at this point because of the changes to the trees. That is a possibility I will try to tackle when I adapt my build to dex based. I'll post the result here so we can get an actual comparison between an int based and dex based build.

[Fedora1]

You assassinate 100% in endgame? I doubt it. It's easy to get a 100% success rate on coup de grace with a dc in the 100s... but not so much on assassinate.

Coup de Gras is either Ranged OR Melee - Assassinate is both.
Coup de Gras is only against helpless foes - Assassinate is against any.

Coup de Gras does 3(W) and Assassinate does 10d6 extra SA.

I think they look fairly even.

[brzytki]

Coup de Gras is either Ranged OR Melee - Assassinate is both.
Coup de Gras is only against helpless foes - Assassinate is against any.

Coup de Gras does 3(W) and Assassinate does 10d6 extra SA.

I think they look fairly even.

I see you have on idea what you are talking about.

1. Assassinate is only melee.
2. Coup de Grace works on a whole of a lot more mobs than assassinate.
3. It's not only helpless state, read up.
4. That SA, even if it works cause I've always had a hard time seeing it, is on a failed save and that means the mob and the ones around it now see you and all are on you if you solo.
5. It's the DC perhaps fairly even? Bards can easily have 40 points higher DC - making it the highest DC insta-kill in game with really low investment that no mob can save against.

[brzytki]

...snip...
What you're written is true. But only for your build. You are looking at it from the perspective of your build. The build that has nearly max practical INT. You might only get 2 more DC if you switch to DEX, but others that don't run with Yugo INT pots, all 6 INT from ED will have another 2 DC to their builds and a free twist slot among other things, while the only drawbacks would be at most 3-4 points of damage per hit less and skill points.

Edit: And yes, it would increase the number of optimal builds but all of them would be DEX based. That's why I said that they can make assassinate DEX based only anyway if they want to change it.

Edit 2: Look at it this way. Your build is one of a very few top INT builds that have both top DC and top DPS. If your build is better off being DEX based, then all other builds have all the more reason to switch to DEX.

[CThruTheEgo]

What you're written is true. But only for your build. You are looking at it from the perspective of your build. The build that has nearly max practical INT. You might only get 2 more DC if you switch to DEX, but others that don't run with Yugo INT pots, all 6 INT from ED will have another 2 DC to their builds and a free twist slot among other things, while the only drawbacks would be at most 3-4 points of damage per hit less and skill points.

Edit: And yes, it would increase the number of optimal builds but all of them would be DEX based. That's why I said that they can make assassinate DEX based only anyway if they want to change it.

Of course I'm looking at it from the perspective of my build because there's no point in comparing builds that don't actually exist. There are a whole host of details that need to be worked out (such as gearing, enhancements, etc.) to know what the actual pros and cons are. My build currently is how I would (and do) build an int based assassin. The dex based version I'll post in this thread will be how I would build a dex based assassin. By all means, post your versions of a fully detailed int and dex based assassin with the new changes so we can see what the trade offs really are. Otherwise you're just dealing with theoreticals and maybe not seeing all the implications that you would with all the details worked out.

The point in my previous post is that many of the bonuses you cited as benefiting dex only are also available to an int based build. Yugo pots, ED stat points, capstone, completionist, and racial stats are available to both equally. I tend to focus on damage in most of my builds, so that is an advantage that int has over dex that I would probably favor, but I won't really know what all the advantages and disadvantages are until all the details are worked out.

A dex build is also going to have to go for nearly max dex if they want assassinate to be effective in endgame, so I'm not sure why you mention that my build is near max int as though that's not standard for an endgame assassin.

[CThruTheEgo]

Edit 2: Look at it this way. Your build is one of a very few top INT builds that have both top DC and top DPS. If your build is better off being DEX based, then all other builds have all the more reason to switch to DEX.

I'm not convinced that my build would be better off going dex based, but I'm not convinced it wouldn't be either. I won't really know until I work out the details, and neither will anyone else know whether dex or int is better for theirs, for that matter. That's why I'm going to take the time to compare the two actual versions.

My experience has shown me that +2 DCs are not needed, so I don't see that as an advantage so much as it is an easier entry into an endgame assassin for people without one already maxed out. I don't think that's a bad thing either because assassins are still going to require a great deal of skill to play effectively so it's not going to create an "easy button." Those who want an easy button instakiller will still have bards to choose. :D

[Fedora1]

1. Assassinate is only melee.

My bad, I thought it was one of the proposed changes in the OP. Not sure where I got that.



2. Coup de Grace works on a whole of a lot more mobs than assassinate.

Such as?



3. It's not only helpless state, read up.

Okay sorry if I used the DDO term for helpless incorrectly. It works on Fascinated, Sleeping, Dancing, Dazed, Tripped, Mesmerized, Paralyzed, Petrified, or Stunned enemies.

My point was Assassinate works on enemies that are perfectly whole.




4. That SA, even if it works cause I've always had a hard time seeing it, is on a failed save and that means the mob and the ones around it now see you and all are on you if you solo.

The extra SA is when the mob successfully saves. Failed save means he is dead.


5. It's the DC perhaps fairly even? Bards can easily have 40 points higher DC - making it the highest DC insta-kill in game with really low investment that no mob can save against.

No, my point was assassinate does not require a mob that is stunned, tripped, paralyzed or whatever. The coup de gras DC is a lot higher, but beyond an extra 4-5 that the assassin can build up to is redundant. In other words, you can get a no fail save (or very close as IronClan pointed out) without it being 40 points higher.

I'm not into all the DDO math but 3(W) and 10d6 SA seemed close to me.

All those points (except my mistake on ranged) are why I said it looks close comparing coup de gras and assassinate to me.

[CThruTheEgo]

Okay sorry if I used the DDO term for helpless incorrectly. It works on Fascinated, Sleeping, Dancing, Dazed, Tripped, Mesmerized, Paralyzed, Petrified, or Stunned enemies.

My point was Assassinate works on enemies that are perfectly whole.

And assassinate requires being in sneak mode, which is more of a hindrance than those required for coup.


No, my point was assassinate does not require a mob that is stunned, tripped, paralyzed or whatever. The coup de gras DC is a lot higher, but beyond an extra 4-5 that the assassin can build up to is redundant. In other words, you can get a no fail save (or very close as IronClan pointed out) without it being 40 points higher.

Getting a mob into any one of those states is ridiculously easy. It's not a hindrance, drawback, or limitation in the slightest. Swashbuckler even has melee attack enhancements built into the tree to put mobs into that state, so you can trip then coup back to back. And while you're right that assassins don't need higher DCs, the bard does not have to go all out to get their instakill DC to effective numbers the way an assassin does, so they've got a lot more room for flexibility and variation.


All those points (except my mistake on ranged) are why I said it looks close comparing coup de gras and assassinate to me.

It's not even close, a swashbuckler is a much better instakiller. I've played maxed out versions of both (see my sig for each build) and there's no contest. The bard has better survivability, dps, healing (both self and group), damage mitigation, damage avoidance, utility, CC, party support, you name it. The only thing the bard lacks is trapping ability, but that can be done with 2 rogue levels and all of the advantages listed are not diminished significantly.

The difference is in their playstyle. The assassin playstyle is still unique to them alone and that is what draws me to them more than anything.

[Fedora1]

And assassinate requires being in sneak mode, which is more of a hindrance than those required for coup.

I agree improvements need to be made to sneak.



Getting a mob into any one of those states is ridiculously easy. It's not a hindrance, drawback, or limitation in the slightest.

I would disagree, although not to the point of saying it's "hard" to get them into that state, i wouldn't go as far as saying it's not a limitation or that it is ridiculously easy.


And while you're right that assassins don't need higher DCs, the bard does not have to go all out to get their instakill DC to effective numbers the way an assassin does, so they've got a lot more room for flexibility and variation.

That is actually a very good point.


It's not even close, a swashbuckler is a much better instakiller. I've played maxed out versions of both (see my sig for each build) and there's no contest. The bard has better survivability, dps, healing (both self and group), damage mitigation, damage avoidance, utility, CC, party support, you name it. The only thing the bard lacks is trapping ability, but that can be done with 2 rogue levels and all of the advantages listed are not diminished significantly.

I currently have both an assassin and a swash at cap too, and yes the bard is overall the much better of the two even factoring in my assassin's past lives vs a first life bard. My point was not about comparing the two classes, but comparing assassinate and coup de gras side-by-side, which admittedly did not take into account your point about investment to get good DC's for one vs the other.

I can admit when I'm wrong.

EDIT - Oh one other mistake I made, when I said "as IronClan pointed out" I meant as "CThruTheEgo" pointed out (regarding the DC's). That's what happens when I work 11 hour days on 4 hours sleep. lol

[brzytki]

Of course I'm looking at it from the perspective of my build because there's no point in comparing builds that don't actually exist. There are a whole host of details that need to be worked out (such as gearing, enhancements, etc.) to know what the actual pros and cons are. My build currently is how I would (and do) build an int based assassin. The dex based version I'll post in this thread will be how I would build a dex based assassin. By all means, post your versions of a fully detailed int and dex based assassin with the new changes so we can see what the trade offs really are. Otherwise you're just dealing with theoreticals and maybe not seeing all the implications that you would with all the details worked out.

The point in my previous post is that many of the bonuses you cited as benefiting dex only are also available to an int based build. Yugo pots, ED stat points, capstone, completionist, and racial stats are available to both equally. I tend to focus on damage in most of my builds, so that is an advantage that int has over dex that I would probably favor, but I won't really know what all the advantages and disadvantages are until all the details are worked out.

A dex build is also going to have to go for nearly max dex if they want assassinate to be effective in endgame, so I'm not sure why you mention that my build is near max int as though that's not standard for an endgame assassin.
Ok, maybe I should've been more clear about what I wanted to say. For people like you and me, who have almost every piece of gear that could help our builds, enough fate points, past lives, tomes, etc., for people at the peak of the mountain it might not be that obvious because we are already at top and we can easily compensate for a free feat, twist slot and so on. But when you go down the mountain and meet people who for example don't have +5 DEX tome, max fate points, need that feat and those APs, it's a no-brainer for them to switch to DEX.

Some of the bonuses I posted are indeed available fot INT as well. But some of them have serious drawbacks. Why lock yourself into using a twist slot for Brace and still having 10% less fortification when you can go DEX and have not only better fortification, to-hit but also a free twist slot. Same with ED stat points, some people like using Shadow Manipulation and so have 2 INT less on live. But when they'll switch to DEX they'll put those 4 ED points into 2 DEX.

Thing is they'll have the same or better DC than your build has now (when you stated that more DC isn't really needed) but with more options and fewer drawbacks.

Anyway, let's stop for now and resume when you post your DEX build. I would post mine but I only have my smartphone on me until the weekend so you'll have to wait for it a few days.

[brzytki]

...snip... Other than my obvious mistake about the damage portion (i meant failed assassinate, not save), i'd second every single thing CThru said in response to that. I can only add that if you are trying to assassinate mid fight when there are many mobs around there is a chance a cleave or an arrow might hit you just as you were about to kill a mob pulling you out of sneak and assassinte goes on cooldown doing absolutely nothing.

About the mobs it works on: undead are a prime example. You can assassinate undead but you need luck, a lot of fort reduction and remove their SA immunity (assassin's trick or SD core 6).

[CThruTheEgo]

Ok, maybe I should've been more clear about what I wanted to say. For people like you and me, who have almost every piece of gear that could help our builds, enough fate points, past lives, tomes, etc., for people at the peak of the mountain it might not be that obvious because we are already at top and we can easily compensate for a free feat, twist slot and so on. But when you go down the mountain and meet people who for example don't have +5 DEX tome, max fate points, need that feat and those APs, it's a no-brainer for them to switch to DEX.

Well with some of the bonuses you mentioned, you gave me the impression that you were talking about an optimized endgame build. Completionist, for example, isn't going to be available to those further down the mountain. Yugo pots are also something the average player likely will not concern themselves with. Those players are also probably not going to be building for endgame, in which case optimization is not necessary. A current int based build that isn't built for endgame will have more flexibility now, for example. And while I realize that most players are not going to be playing a maxed out endgame build, I also think it is important to see what is possible when a build's full potential is realized. And at those extremes, I don't see a great deal of extra power in a dex based build, but I do see more room for variation. As of now, there is very little room for variation among optimized assassin builds.


Same with ED stat points, some people like using Shadow Manipulation and so have 2 INT less on live. But when they'll switch to DEX they'll put those 4 ED points into 2 DEX.

Well shadow manipulation is not a must have so if an int build is willing to sacrifice it, then the ED stat points are a wash. Alternatively, you could say that the int based has the flexibility of trading 1 DC for shadow manipulation. A dex build won't have the option of an effective DC for shadow manipulation.


Anyway, let's stop for now and resume when you post your DEX build. I would post mine but I only have my smartphone on me until the weekend so you'll have to wait for it a few days.

It may be a few days before I can post mine as well. It depends on when I can find the time.


I can only add that if you are trying to assassinate mid fight when there are many mobs around there is a chance a cleave or an arrow might hit you just as you were about to kill a mob pulling you out of sneak and assassinte goes on cooldown doing absolutely nothing.

I'd also add that you can even use coup with a scroll in your hand. Apparently bards are such good instakillers that they can give lethal papercuts.

While we're at it Sev, is there any chance that we can get it fixed so assassins can assassinate with a scroll in their hand also?

[slarden]

It's not even close, a swashbuckler is a much better instakiller. I've played maxed out versions of both (see my sig for each build) and there's no contest. The bard has better survivability, dps, healing (both self and group), damage mitigation, damage avoidance, utility, CC, party support, you name it. The only thing the bard lacks is trapping ability, but that can be done with 2 rogue levels and all of the advantages listed are not diminished significantly.

The difference is in their playstyle. The assassin playstyle is still unique to them alone and that is what draws me to them more than anything.

This is my observation as well comparing a non-maxed out swashbuckler to a fairly maxed-out rouge- swashbuckler wins at just about everything, but rogue is way more fun to play. I played 12 bard / 6 fighter / 2 rogue rather than 20 bard.

One thing I will point out with assassinate vs. coup is that it's fairly easy to kill 2 targets with assassinate since each dagger gets an attempt. You have to line it up and it's much harder against moving targets. Overall I would guess over the course of a dungeon a swashbuckler will end up with more insta-kills because they don't have the use restrictions a rogue has. I can sometimes go into sneak and assassinate in the middle of a big fight, but it's easily disrupted compared a swashbuckler.

[Chai]

And assassinate requires being in sneak mode, which is more of a hindrance than those required for coup.



Getting a mob into any one of those states is ridiculously easy. It's not a hindrance, drawback, or limitation in the slightest. Swashbuckler even has melee attack enhancements built into the tree to put mobs into that state, so you can trip then coup back to back. And while you're right that assassins don't need higher DCs, the bard does not have to go all out to get their instakill DC to effective numbers the way an assassin does, so they've got a lot more room for flexibility and variation.



It's not even close, a swashbuckler is a much better instakiller. I've played maxed out versions of both (see my sig for each build) and there's no contest. The bard has better survivability, dps, healing (both self and group), damage mitigation, damage avoidance, utility, CC, party support, you name it. The only thing the bard lacks is trapping ability, but that can be done with 2 rogue levels and all of the advantages listed are not diminished significantly.

The difference is in their playstyle. The assassin playstyle is still unique to them alone and that is what draws me to them more than anything.

Ive played maxed out versions of both too, and I do not concur that its "no contest". Its more of a preference in style in the way the game is played hammered into the culture of the community that plays it, than it is "easier"

The community is mostly into fast runs and or zergs (not the same thing, but both are fast). Bard insta kills favor the faster playstyle. If this game was so hard where pulling mobs back was the least risky way to play, people would see how viable assassins really are. What messes up the assassins ability to instakill at the level they really can is the speed and tenacity of play adopted by most other players which disallows a subterfuge, hunt and kill, non-direct confrontation playstyle. The common desire in builds is to optimize to be able to run in and kill, and burst out of melee range to heal when needed. Do your damage and get out. By the time an assassin can manipulate circumstances to their favor to use their insta kill the rest of the players are two rooms down further zerg plowing another next room.

Ruling playstyle out and being completely subjective however, one is not easier than the other. I can just as easily sneak up on a mob and bump it off as I can put some CC on it and bump it off. The vast majority of the players do not want to wait for the sneak method however.....

The culture of play in DDO does not favor the assassin playstyle. In terms of playstyle preference, run in, trip and kill > sneak in and kill.

That's the difference.

The reason bard has better survivability, dps, healing (both self and group), damage mitigation, damage avoidance etc....is because we are comparing 2015 bard with 2012 assassin. Comparing post revamp classes vs pre revamp classes is good to assess where the power of the pre revamp class should be after it gets its love.

[slarden]

And assassinate requires being in sneak mode, which is more of a hindrance than those required for coup.

Getting a mob into any one of those states is ridiculously easy. It's not a hindrance, drawback, or limitation in the slightest. Swashbuckler even has melee attack enhancements built into the tree to put mobs into that state, so you can trip then coup back to back. And while you're right that assassins don't need higher DCs, the bard does not have to go all out to get their instakill DC to effective numbers the way an assassin does, so they've got a lot more room for flexibility and variation.

It's not even close, a swashbuckler is a much better instakiller. I've played maxed out versions of both (see my sig for each build) and there's no contest. The bard has better survivability, dps, healing (both self and group), damage mitigation, damage avoidance, utility, CC, party support, you name it. The only thing the bard lacks is trapping ability, but that can be done with 2 rogue levels and all of the advantages listed are not diminished significantly.

The difference is in their playstyle. The assassin playstyle is still unique to them alone and that is what draws me to them more than anything.


Ruling playstyle out and being completely subjective however, one is not easier than the other. I can just as easily sneak up on a mob and bump it off as I can put some CC on it and bump it off. The vast majority of the players do not want to wait for the sneak method however.....

Be careful when turning the corner your nose grew quite large after this statement. I bolded the part that made the absolute most sense in your statement.

[redoubt]

For the crowd that thinks its okay to add DEX to assassinate, please answer this:

Would it be equally okay to add INT to hit/damage in the assassin cores?

[Chai]

Be careful when turning the corner your nose grew quite large after this statement. I bolded the part that made the absolute most sense in your statement.

Pick that definition apart all you want, my statement is correct. Assassinating is not really harder than coup as a play mechanic. The single biggest factor in why people say this, is the preferred playstyle of the vast majority being fast runs or zergs, which is less conducive to assassinating than it is for coup.

The play style which is completely subjective to the culture of this community, is what makes assassination tougher than coup. Not the game mechanics themselves.

[Chai]

For the crowd that thinks its okay to add DEX to assassinate, please answer this:

Would it be equally okay to add INT to hit/damage in the assassin cores?

Why does it need to be in the cores?

We already have this with harper. People want to go this route anyhow due to snagging KTA along the way, which increases DPS significantly on int builds.

[redoubt]

Why does it need to be in the cores?

We already have this with harper. People want to go this route anyhow due to snagging KTA along the way, which increases DPS significantly on int builds.

Because its cheaper.

A dex assassin gets it all included in one tree. An INT assassin has to go over to the harper tree (and buy it potentially) and has to spend a feat on reflexes.

Even if you want KTAs, you free up the 4 AP points by not getting strategic combat 1&2 (even if you are getting MP from harper.) A free feat and 4 AP are a huge advantage.

People seem to think that giving an INT based assassin hit/damage in the tree is overpowered, but at the same time think it is okay to do exactly that for a DEX build. I don't understand the double standard here.

[slarden]

Pick that definition apart all you want, my statement is correct. Assassinating is not really harder than coup as a play mechanic. The single biggest factor in why people say this, is the preferred playstyle of the vast majority being fast runs or zergs, which is less conducive to assassinating than it is for coup.

The play style which is completely subjective to the culture of this community, is what makes assassination tougher than coup. Not the game mechanics themselves.

Oh I didn't realize you were talking about just assassinate and not rogue vs. swash in general - so your nose didn't grow at all.

I agree with you and disagree with others on that point. I actually think assassinate is pretty good compared to coup. However, I think swashbuckler wins on every other major measure in the game - dps, defense, self-healing, dps, etc. Assassin doesn't really win on assassinate either.

I mentioned earlier that I can get 2 kills from a single assassinate. You can actually get 3 with twitching. So yeah assassinate is not awful, but as you said with a zerging party and assassins moving at 75% (soon to be 90% which is still too slow really with all the speed boosts in the game) and the rest of the party moving 130%+ good luck getting any kills at all with assassinate.

Another minor dispute is that you mentioned you can stealth into a mob. That is not correct - if you try stealthing into an EE mob you will be noticed - you are mostly limited to picking the best target on the fringe or you will be noticed and can't assassinate at all. This again has alot to do with rogue sneak speed and the changes that were made to spot checks some time back.

But I agree with your general point that assassinate and coup are not miles apart in terms of effectiveness - they are just different.

[slarden]

For the crowd that thinks its okay to add DEX to assassinate, please answer this:

Would it be equally okay to add INT to hit/damage in the assassin cores?

I actually think that is a must if they allow you to use dex or int for assassinate. And the Shadowdancer ability Executioner's strike should also be dex or int.

[Chai]

Because its cheaper.

A dex assassin gets it all included in one tree. An INT assassin has to go over to the harper tree (and buy it potentially) and has to spend a feat on reflexes.

Even if you want KTAs, you free up the 4 AP points by not getting strategic combat 1&2 (even if you are getting MP from harper.) A free feat and 4 AP are a huge advantage.

People seem to think that giving an INT based assassin hit/damage in the tree is overpowered, but at the same time think it is okay to do exactly that for a DEX build. I don't understand the double standard here.

Im using strategic combat 1 in part because the point investment qualifies me for the next tier to get to KTA as well - so those points aren't really freed up. What feat in the game are you talking with the opening which constitutes a "huge advantage". Part of the issue in DDO is there are limited useful melee feats for non fighters.

I don't think either option is overpowered especially compared to what it needs to compete with after revamp. I just don't think int to damage is needed in the cores.

[CThruTheEgo]

Ive played maxed out versions of both too, and I do not concur that its "no contest". Its more of a preference in style in the way the game is played hammered into the culture of the community that plays it, than it is "easier"

The community is mostly into fast runs and or zergs (not the same thing, but both are fast). Bard insta kills favor the faster playstyle. If this game was so hard where pulling mobs back was the least risky way to play, people would see how viable assassins really are. What messes up the assassins ability to instakill at the level they really can is the speed and tenacity of play adopted by most other players which disallows a subterfuge, hunt and kill, non-direct confrontation playstyle. The common desire in builds is to optimize to be able to run in and kill, and burst out of melee range to heal when needed. Do your damage and get out. By the time an assassin can manipulate circumstances to their favor to use their insta kill the rest of the players are two rooms down further zerg plowing another next room.

Ruling playstyle out and being completely subjective however, one is not easier than the other. I can just as easily sneak up on a mob and bump it off as I can put some CC on it and bump it off. The vast majority of the players do not want to wait for the sneak method however.....

The culture of play in DDO does not favor the assassin playstyle. In terms of playstyle preference, run in, trip and kill > sneak in and kill.

That's the difference.

I don't agree with this. I like to play my assassin at breakneck speeds also. For me, the difference in playstyle between an assassin and nearly every other melee is twofold. First, because the majority of their dps relies on sneak attack damage, agro management is paramount. If you're getting agro, then your dps drops significantly. This results in a much more cautious playstyle. In other words, you don't just run in and start swinging. You have to play with a little more finesse. In the current state of the game, this is less of a factor due to improved deception, but it is still a factor. Second, sneaking is part of the playstyle. Sneaking can be used as a way to manage agro, but it is a necessity to use assassinate. When you're with a group of zergers, assassinating at any point during a fight requires you to be aware of the entirety of the situation. You have to know where archers are so you don't cross their line of fire while sneaking. You have to know where your target is, and where they are going to be by the time you reach them and assassinate is off cooldown. That requires awareness of mob behavior. You have to know which target you should be trying to eliminate first.

No other class or build requires this level of awareness to be effective. It will certainly help them, but it is practically a requirement for an assassin. This is what the assassin playstyle is about for me. It's about playing with more finesse and cunning than your average melee, even at full zerg speed.


The reason bard has better survivability, dps, healing (both self and group), damage mitigation, damage avoidance etc....is because we are comparing 2015 bard with 2012 assassin. Comparing post revamp classes vs pre revamp classes is good to assess where the power of the pre revamp class should be after it gets its love.

Even with the proposed changes to assassin, I see nothing that is going to put assassin ahead of swashbuckler in any of the categories I mentioned. I'm fine with that tbh, as swashbuckler is clearly OP and bringing assassin up to their level in any of those categories is going to make them OP as well.

[Chai]

I don't agree with this. I like to play my assassin at breakneck speeds also. For me, the difference in playstyle between an assassin and nearly every other melee is twofold. First, because the majority of their dps relies on sneak attack damage, agro management is paramount. If you're getting agro, then your dps drops significantly. This results in a much more cautious playstyle. In other words, you don't just run in and start swinging. You have to play with a little more finesse. In the current state of the game, this is less of a factor due to improved deception, but it is still a factor. Second, sneaking is part of the playstyle. Sneaking can be used as a way to manage agro, but it is a necessity to use assassinate. When you're with a group of zergers, assassinating at any point during a fight requires you to be aware of the entirety of the situation. You have to know where archers are so you don't cross their line of fire while sneaking. You have to know where your target is, and where they are going to be by the time you reach them and assassinate is off cooldown. That requires awareness of mob behavior. You have to know which target you should be trying to eliminate first.

No other class or build requires this level of awareness to be effective. It will certainly help them, but it is practically a requirement for an assassin. This is what the assassin playstyle is about for me. It's about playing with more finesse and cunning than your average melee, even at full zerg speed.

You are actually agreeing with me here. As I pointed out, its the subjective play style choice of the vast majority of the community which puts assassin in the harder to play effectively category. Not the design of the class itself.


Even with the proposed changes to assassin, I see nothing that is going to put assassin ahead of swashbuckler in any of the categories I mentioned. I'm fine with that tbh, as swashbuckler is clearly OP and bringing assassin up to their level in any of those categories is going to make them OP as well.

They make up a lot by being able to equip light armor and keep their dodge bonus high while doing so. Assassinate isn't so far behind coup as many exaggerated claims say it is mechanically. Its the subjective play style choice - which is a player / community decision and not a Turbine design, which is the single biggest factor in why assassinate suffers while coup does not.

[Cetus]

a friend asked me if I go back to pure rogue with the current changes.
my answer? definitely NOT if DPS will not be at least comparable to the revmap classes.
does not matter to me whether assasin should be focused on stealth or acrobat maybe more suitable for DPS

Rogue DPS should be the best, but this "best" cost u worst/bad defense it's a good deal, and this is true so in the PNP and the old DDO (before ED)

so Dev's and player do u remember this "balance"

forgottent thread "DPS Chellange" https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/300873-DPS-Challenge-Part2

oh watch this //"Cetus" vs rogUe// vid from 2011-2012

Round 1 Cetus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDBBEwmIJv8

Oh man...we've been playing this game way too long lol

But yea, back then Rogues were badass.

[brzytki]

Ruling playstyle out and being completely subjective however, one is not easier than the other. I can just as easily sneak up on a mob and bump it off as I can put some CC on it and bump it off. The vast majority of the players do not want to wait for the sneak method however.....

The culture of play in DDO does not favor the assassin playstyle. In terms of playstyle preference, run in, trip and kill > sneak in and kill.

Pick that definition apart all you want, my statement is correct. Assassinating is not really harder than coup as a play mechanic. The single biggest factor in why people say this, is the preferred playstyle of the vast majority being fast runs or zergs, which is less conducive to assassinating than it is for coup.

The play style which is completely subjective to the culture of this community, is what makes assassination tougher than coup. Not the game mechanics themselves.

I'm sorry I don't understand this. Are you saying that Coup de Grace and Assassinate are similar in terms of how to use them because in both cases you have to click only two buttons? For CdG, one button for spell/attack that makes the monster "prepared" and another for CdG? For Assassinate, one button to go into stealth and another to assassinate? Is that what you mean by "assassinate not being harder than CdG"?

[levy1964]

Oh man...we've been playing this game way too long lol

But yea, back then Rogues were badass.

+1

yea, i remember some gold time rogUe when we run with guild epic "chains" and full eq barb with esos (yo Seljuck xD) say....."SAnjo give my some mob to kill !!!10101" xD

[CThruTheEgo]

You are actually agreeing with me here. As I pointed out, its the subjective play style choice of the vast majority of the community which puts assassin in the harder to play effectively category. Not the design of the class itself.

No, I'm not agreeing. Here is what you said:


What messes up the assassins ability to instakill at the level they really can is the speed and tenacity of play adopted by most other players which disallows a subterfuge, hunt and kill, non-direct confrontation playstyle.

...snip...

By the time an assassin can manipulate circumstances to their favor to use their insta kill the rest of the players are two rooms down further zerg plowing another next room.

Unless I'm reading this wrong, you're saying the zerg playstyle is a hindrance to the assassin's playstyle. What I'm saying is, "the speed and tenacity of play adopted by most other players" does not "mess up the assassins ability to instakill." The assassin just requires smarter play whether you're zerging or not. That is the defining feature of the playstyle - smarter and more aware - and that can be done while zerging or sneaking and single pulling one target at a time. I zerg and keep assassinate on cooldown, take out key targets, dps in between, and keep up with a full speed zerg group. You have to be more aware than other melee builds to be able to do that.

[redoubt]

Im using strategic combat 1 in part because the point investment qualifies me for the next tier to get to KTA as well - so those points aren't really freed up. What feat in the game are you talking with the opening which constitutes a "huge advantage". Part of the issue in DDO is there are limited useful melee feats for non fighters.

I don't think either option is overpowered especially compared to what it needs to compete with after revamp. I just don't think int to damage is needed in the cores.

Spend those 2 points on other T1 enhancements. It could be worth:
+1 weapon enhancement
+10 HP
+2 listen/search/spot
If you are using strategic combat 1 as part of the 5 spent to get to T2, then you have other useful choices available. If you want to consider KTA as mandatory for either INT or DEX builds, then you get 2 AP to spend move out of strategic combat and spend elsewhere in T1. You also get 3 AP from T2 that are no longer needed to get up to T3 for KTA. If you skip the harper tree all together you would free up a minimum of 12 AP getting strategic 1 & 2. I think many will still spend points in Harper, but adding hit/damage to the assassin cores would free up those 4 AP to be spend in different ways, either in the harper tree or in other trees.

The feat is "insightful reflexes". It is widely considered a required feat for an INT based assassin. If you go DEX based, you don't need that feat and now have one free.

Yes, I consider 4 extra action points a huge bonus. I also consider a free feat a huge bonus. That's two...

Lastly, you are correct. INT to hit/damage does not NEED to be in the cores, just the same as DEX does not NEED to be in the assassinate formula. As the tree stands now, assassins are built on INT. If DEX is added to assassinate, assassins will be DEX based. If you want there to be a reasonable choice of INT or DEX, then make the assassin tree equal for both DEX and INT (same for Shadow Dancer.) If one build MUST go out of assassin to get required enhancements, that build will be subordinate to the one that does not.

[brzytki]

Unless I'm reading this wrong, you're saying the zerg playstyle is a hindrance to the assassin's playstyle. What I'm saying is, "the speed and tenacity of play adopted by most other players" does not "mess up the assassins ability to instakill." The assassin just requires smarter play whether you're zerging or not. That is the defining feature of the playstyle - smarter and more aware - and that can be done while zerging or sneaking and single pulling one target at a time. I zerg and keep assassinate on cooldown, take out key targets, dps in between, and keep up with a full speed zerg group. You have to be more aware than other melee builds to be able to do that.

This. Also I can give you some examples of game mechanics and class designs that you need to pay attention to while trying to assassinate, that you can completely ignore when trying to CdG, like: sneak speed, hit box, line of sight, hide/ms skills vs spot/listen skills, cleaving foes, archers, assassinating mid air (something that top rogue players have been doing long before zerg playstyle became so popular), and so on. It's nowhere near the "push-the-button-and move-on" CdG. I've been zerging on my assassin for the last 4 years.

[nibel]

For the crowd that thinks its okay to add DEX to assassinate, please answer this:

Would it be equally okay to add INT to hit/damage in the assassin cores?

I would be perfectly ok with the addition of the Melee Training feat from 4e, and ditching Weapon Finesse and all <stat>-to-hit/damage enhancements. Maybe keeping some for thematic reasons, but heavily linked to weapon types (like acrobat and assassin).

For those who don't play 4e, Melee Training allow you to use any other stat you want for your melee basic attacks. This was mostly because some melee classes uses their powers with a stat other than strength (monks hit with Dex, druids hit with Wisdom, bards hit with Charisma, etc), and it allowed them to make opportunity attacks.

[HastyPudding]

I strongly disagree with the use of dexterity for assassinate dc's. It would make intelligence builds for assassins obsolete; you might as well make assassinate dex-based and remove the intelligence dc completely. There is absolutely no need to make one build in the same tree that does the same thing as another require 12 more AP. That's silly.

If you want straight up dps, go for a dexterity build. If you want to have a high assassinate, go with an intelligence build. Simple as that. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

[draven1]

I strongly disagree with the use of dexterity for assassinate dc's. It would make intelligence builds for assassins obsolete; you might as well make assassinate dex-based and remove the intelligence dc completely. There is absolutely no need to make one build in the same tree that does the same thing as another require 12 more AP. That's silly.

If you want straight up dps, go for a dexterity build. If you want to have a high assassinate, go with an intelligence build. Simple as that. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

But, current status of assassin enhancement makes dex based assassins obsolete, too.
Because, int gives not only better assassination DC, but also better DPS than dex ones.
Dex builds have almost nothing useful now. So, That's why every assassins are int-based now.

Even if we can have dex based assassination, int based builds would keep some nice things.
More skill points, better trap skills(I think this point will be very important for upcoming TOEE high DC random traps), better boosted DPS by KtA.

If dex builds can't have assassinate DC, there should be better DPS option for dex builds.
There is no such option for current enhancement or suggested one.

How about critting SA chance that is based on dex ability point?
For example, if you have 40 dex, you will have 40% chance to get SA crit on your crit attack.
If you have 70 dex, you will have 70%.
I think this one might solve current problem for assassin, lack of DPS for dex & int builds.
And it will give some reason to build dex builds.

[slarden]

But, current status of assassin enhancement makes dex based assassins obsolete, too.
Because, int gives not only better assassination DC, but also better DPS than dex ones.

Even if we can have dex based assassination, int based builds would keep some nice things.
More skill points, better trap skills(I think this point will be very important for upcoming TOEE high DC random traps), better boosted DPS by KtA.

Dex based rogues could still take kta and spend less action points and require one less feat. That frees up more action points for better dps than you would get from a slightly bigger kta. More sneak attack in the racial tree and/or no mercy will be provide much more dps overall.

This is basically a big dps boost to rogues, but the more I think about it the more I am ok with giving rogues a bigger boost. They still will be underperforming compared to bards, paladins and barbarians.

[CThruTheEgo]

Dex based rogues could still take kta and spend less action points and require one less feat. That frees up more action points for better dps than you would get from a slightly bigger kta. More sneak attack in the racial tree and/or no mercy will be provide much more dps overall.

There's only 2 races that offer sneak attack in the racial tree - halfling and shadar kai. I don't know much about shadar kai so I can't comment on them, but I'll be upset if halflings become the new optimal choice for assassin. I don't want to go back to halfling. They make me feel like I'm playing in giant world on mario brothers. And I still have nightmares about hezrou butt from that life...

Considering that assassin's have no viable or consistent way to induce helplessness, I wouldn't consider no mercy a big dps increase. It also requires 23 points in acrobat, so will eat up most of your extra points just like harper does now for int builds. I haven't followed all the proposed changes for acrobat, but I'd be surprised if there's 23 AP worth spending in there.

[gwonbush]

If you invest heavily into the Shadar-kai tree, they are well suited for being assassins. In addition to the very useful shadow vault/shadow phase (great for opening doors unseen/getting the hell away and into stealth again), they also have Gloomstalker, which makes all attacks from stealth proc a deception effect and occasionally blind. This makes Assassinate work even if you have aggro due to soloing, making it much easier to get double assassinates off.

[draven1]

Dex based rogues could still take kta and spend less action points and require one less feat. That frees up more action points for better dps than you would get from a slightly bigger kta. More sneak attack in the racial tree and/or no mercy will be provide much more dps overall.

This is basically a big dps boost to rogues, but the more I think about it the more I am ok with giving rogues a bigger boost. They still will be underperforming compared to bards, paladins and barbarians.

Will dex assasins spend less action on harper even if they take KtA? No, I dont think so at all.
Don't forget int assassins get +4 int from harper tree with KtA, some melee powers.
Because dex assassins will want to get more upper tier dex for that harper tree for more DC as like int assassins.
So, both int & dex assassins will have same AP used in harper tree.


More sneak attack & no mercy? How can you get those unless you dont take KtA & more dex from harper?

Dex builds can just save a feat, that's all. Int builds will have better DPS, skills.
Trap skills will shine for harder contents soon.

Int based assassins might have better synergy with mechanic enhancement. As like dex assassins will have better synergy with acrobat enhancement.

[slarden]

There's only 2 races that offer sneak attack in the racial tree - halfling and shadar kai. I don't know much about shadar kai so I can't comment on them, but I'll be upset if halflings become the new optimal choice for assassin. I don't want to go back to halfling. They make me feel like I'm playing in giant world on mario brothers. And I still have nightmares about hezrou butt from that life...

Considering that assassin's have no viable or consistent way to induce helplessness, I wouldn't consider no mercy a big dps increase. It also requires 23 points in acrobat, so will eat up most of your extra points just like harper does now for int builds. I haven't followed all the proposed changes for acrobat, but I'd be surprised if there's 23 AP worth spending in there.

Halfling is looking really good for assassin to me with this change. There is enough points for no mercy, but I will most likely still use kta even as a dex-based assassin (the difference in damage is small) and go for more sneak attack in the halfling tree. Shadar-Kai is also a really interesting possibility since maxing out dex won't be as necessary to achieve a high assassinate dc with a dex build. Also I can now take epic reflexes or something else in place of insightful reflexes which is quite nice. It looks like I will be getting more than a small boost from this update after all.

I am sensing a Lam build is near so we may have a chance to try it out in the next 10 days.

[CThruTheEgo]

Will dex assasins spend less action on harper even if they take KtA? No, I dont think so at all.
Don't forget int assassins get +4 int from harper tree with KtA, some melee powers.
Because dex assasins will want to get more upper tier dex for that harper tree for more DC as like int assassins.
So, both int & dex assassins will have same AP used in harper tree.


More sneak attack & no mercy? How can you get those unless you dont take KtA & more dex from harper?

Dex builds can just save a feat, that's all. Int builds will have better DPS, skills.

Well that is one option. But dex is also available from either of the other two rogue trees, so they may decide to pick up dex from there along with some other benefits (e.g. wand and scroll mastery, shadow dodge, and improved traps from mechanic; movement speed, haste boost, and subtlety from acrobat).

[redoubt]

When was the last time you saw someone wait for traps? So the skills are a difference, but a minor one.

The feat is big.

I'd try to take points from harper not needed for hit/damage and get the modified cores from TA for higher maximum dodge. Not sure how far I would get, but I would try.

My rogue, before harper, only used the rogue trees and shadar-kai (was drow many lives before that as well) and still wanted more action points.

[draven1]

I'll be upset if halflings become the new optimal choice for assassin.

As you know, halflings are the best rogues in D&D history.
I don't know why halfling rogues are so gimp now.

Make halflings shiny again :D
There is no reason to have halfling as a race except flavor builds now.

Halflings & shadar-kai are designed for sneaky jobs, I don't understand why they aren't the best race for rogues now.
Because dex rogues are just gimp now.

[draven1]

Well that is one option. But dex is also available from either of the other two rogue trees,

It's just +2, not +4 like harper tree.
Harper tree also offer better enhancement like KtA, melee power, spell point, etc.

[slarden]

Will dex assasins spend less action on harper even if they take KtA? No, I dont think so at all.
Don't forget int assassins get +4 int from harper tree with KtA, some melee powers.
Because dex assassins will want to get more upper tier dex for that harper tree for more DC as like int assassins.
So, both int & dex assassins will have same AP used in harper tree.


More sneak attack & no mercy? How can you get those unless you dont take KtA & more dex from harper?

Dex builds can just save a feat, that's all. Int builds will have better DPS, skills.
Trap skills will shine for harder contents soon.

Absolutely you would spend less points. I would only spend 12 points for 2 dex + kta vs the 24 I spend now. There is no need to go to tier 3 since dex to damage is free already. I also gain a free feat slot.

That is the thing with the dex build. I can get 4 dex and some threat reduction from sly flourish for 7 pts from thief acrobat so there is no reason to spend 12 more points and get 2 more dex from the harper agent tree. Or I just spend 5 pts for 3 dx and sly flourish which is probably enough since dex yugo pots have no down side so I am 3 ahead vs. my int build already. I never used the int pots because fortification is too important to a rogue.

Do you fail on traps? I don't even when leveling with subpar gear. I am not even a little concerned about trapping skill issues. DPS will be better with a dex build definitely due to the freed up action points and alot of good options to use those points on. The only reason to play int would be for daunting roar for some cc, but it's just not compelling enough of a reason by itself.

[slarden]

As you know, halflings are the best rogues in D&D history.
I don't know why halfling rogues are so gimp now.

Make halflings shiny again :D
There is no reason to have halfling as a race except flavor builds now.

Halflings & shadar-kai is designed for sneaky jobs, I don't understand why they are the best race for rogues now.

Halflings are not flavor builds lol. Pure DPS rogues still go with a dex-based halfing or shadar-kai. We will see a narrowing of race selection due to dex being used for everything and freeing up AP for the racial tree.

[draven1]

Do you fail on traps? I don't even when leveling with subpar gear. I am not even a little concerned about trapping skill issues. DPS will be better with a dex build definitely due to the freed up action points and alot of good options to use those points on. The only reason to play int would be for daunting roar for some cc, but it's just not compelling enough of a reason by itself.

I don't think you can disable easily(no fail) on dex based trappers for higher EE quests like stormhorn, ToEE, Haunted halls.
I don't fail on traps, because I am int-based now, not dex based.

[slarden]

I don't think you can disable easily(no fail) on dex based trappers for higher EE quests like stormhorn, ToEE, Haunted halls.
I don't fail on traps, because I am int-based now, not dex based.

It's not going to make a difference one bit. Even if I fail on a 1-3 or something like that I won't be blowing up the box so at worst I use a few more thieves tools. If I am no-fail now and only losing a max of 7 it's not going to be a problem. It won't take me from no fail to blowing up trap boxes for sure. I suspect I will still be no-fail.

[draven1]

Halflings are not flavor builds lol. Pure DPS rogues still go with a dex-based halfing or shadar-kai. We will see a narrowing of race selection due to dex being used for everything and freeing up AP for the racial tree.

So, it's really strange.
It's hard to see that dex based halfling or shadar-kai assassins on my server(G-land).
I know the best rogues including myself in my server.
No one use dex for endgame assassins now.

How can you get better DPS on dex assassin now? From racial SA(1d6~3d6)?

How about KtA with melee power from harper? I think it will give far more better DPS than racial SA.
And it even gives raw DPS, not SA.

[slarden]

So, it's really strange.
It's hard to see that dex based halfling or shadar-kai assassins on my server(G-land). I know the best rogues including myself in my server.
No one uses dex for endgame assassins now.

How can you get better DPS on dex assassin now? From racial SA(1d6~3d6)?

How about KtA with melee power from harper? I think it will give far more better DPS than racial SA.

Have you not read the thief-acrobat official topic forum? Those are dex-based builds. So are mechanics. Assassin was the only int-based tree. LD is a good destiny for a dps-based rogue.

[draven1]

Have you not read the thief-acrobat official topic forum? Those are dex-based builds. So are mechanics. Assassin was the only int-based tree. LD is a good destiny for a dps-based rogue.

Am I at wrong thread? This is an assassin discussion, not acrobat, I think :D

And even many acrobats prefer STR to DEX, because there are many source that boost STR, not DEX.

Please show me how dex assassin can outDPS int based assasin now.


INT based assassins might have better synergy with mechanic enhancement.
As like DEX assassins might have better synergy with acrobat enhancement.
There is no reason to tie assassins to INT only.

Variety is the beauty of DDO.
Dex assassination might open up new viable build, NINJA ASSASSIN :D

ps> Is there any way to resize image with BB Code?
ps2> Why ninja spy tree doesn't get revamp, too? It seems NO ONE use that tree for main.

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs29/f/2008/045/6/4/Shinobi___J___14_by_mjranum_stock.jpghttp://fc04.deviantart.net/fs29/f/2008/045/8/3/Shinobi___J___24_by_mjranum_stock.jpg
http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs28/f/2008/045/7/e/Shinobi___J___31_by_mjranum_stock.jpg

[slarden]

Am I at wrong thread? This is an assassin discussion, not acrobat, I think :D

And even many acrobats prefer STR than DEX, because there are many source that boost STR, not DEX.

Yeah but assassin is not the only rogue tree. There are plenty of dex-based rogue builds and they are not flavor builds as you claim. I don't know of any acrobats that use strength, but I am sure they exist. The acrobat tree doesn't preclude strength, but all the benefits in that tree are for dex.

[CThruTheEgo]

It's just +2, not +4 like harper tree.
Harper tree also offer better enhancement like KtA, melee power, spell point, etc.

12 AP in either acrobat or mechanic will get you the first dex available from each, along with the other stuff I mentioned in my previous post. Another 12 AP in harper will get you 2 dex. So for 36 AP across those three trees, you still end up with 4 dex, but more utility from the other rogue trees and less dps from loss of melee power and lower know the angles. That's just one option though. I'm just showing that they can still get the same number of stat bonuses from the class trees.

[CThruTheEgo]

Yeah but assassin is not the only rogue tree. There are plenty of dex-based rogue builds and they are not flavor builds as you claim.

I'm no mind reader, but given that we are in the assassin thread talking about dex based assassins, I would guess the comment about dex based rogues being flavor builds was just poorly worded and intended to mean dex based assassins. If that's the case, it's true - dex based assassins are just flavor builds currently, and they're not even very tasty.

[Bobby88888]

Dex based Assassins currently can get better DPS over Int based but they will never get a workable Assassinate DC, which is why you don't see Dex based Assassins since if you aren't Assassinating you might as well be a fighter or barbarian or pally etc and do infinitely more damage.

Letting Dex to Assassinate DC will completely kill Int builds since Dex can then get higher assassinate DCs coupled with higher dodge and other defences (eg defensive roll) and higher DPS.

What Assassins need is a focus on fixing the issue of the class not at creating more and imbalance the class further within itself.
~DPS (via SA): More needed. Crits/vorpals for SA damage and/or more scaling from MP whould do it.
~Defences are almost there now, but more PRR is needed. Make Light Armour Mastery give 5/10/15 and call it a day.
~Healing: I'm fine with it as is but really you have given everyone else good self heals built in and those should be rolled back IMO, not continued on or just dropping the ball on Rogues.
~TWF: You said you were looking into this earlier in thread I think which is great, assuming issue solved until proven otherwise.
~Assassinate: DC is in a good spot. with lots of investment and some sacrifices you can get it really good. I think that investment should be rewarded more by letting it bypass dw/db and letting it work on orange named (I noticed that it stopped working for me so either I always roll bad now on Orange nameds or it doesn't apply to them anymore?)

That is what Rogues need, not Dex to Assassinate DC which will destroy balance within the class and spell the total end of Int based builds.
Assassinate currently requires first a Dex DC (hide/ms) and then a Int DC (ability itself). This is good and together with dex reqs. for 2wf line means no good Assassin dumps Dex.

You let Assassins use Int to hit/damage with Harper tree and the response we are seeing to that here and now is Int is too powerful now so let us use Dex for our Assassinate DC. That is way more powerful than what Int got and than hopefully Int ever gets. If your looking at fixing the class stop here. If concerned with Dex to assassinate DC carry on reading.

I would personally free up a feat and about a dozen APs or more if this change goes through which lets me hit the Tier 4 stuff in acrobat or load up on the racial stuff and I would definately go Halfing for the 'OP'ness it would get in terms of DC, dmg and dodge.

DC comparisons: Ignoring things that both would typically have.
Int: Nada.
Dex: 2 base stats, ~2 enhancements, 4 tensers (no need for constant upkeep, hit when needed), 1 item (easy to slot the +4 exc, not so much for int), 0-2 ED, 2 Yugo Pot (I personally won't use for the pen on Int build but would on Dex, some might but I think most wouldn't) = 11-13 more dex with as much as 14 possible for +7 mod.

But none of that +7 is needed for assassinate to land so you can jump to say LD or crusader ED for much more Dmg and or heals. Still leaving +4 DC over Int (or 3 if you already use Yugo Int) making it less of a investment or letting you spend AP or whatever on other things. Not to mention the feat you get back.


Now tell me Dex to assassinate DC is nowhere near as good as int still since your damage would be low....
I mean really, it becomes so much more powerful than Int that I am struggling to see how you can even say Int would be better. KtA gives you what? 15 damage on a 70 int build vs about 8 on a dex build. You are saying 7 damage makes Int better than dex on a Temporary ability??? Even on a vorpal that isn't even 30 damage. VS going Dex based with higher DC, cleaves/momentum swing and Master's blitz with even more multipliers and action boosts.

No comparison, not even in the same league. Dex wins every time by a huge margin and Int builds are gone for good.

In my mind the Assassin is a cunning foe, the most intelligent enemy you could face who combines his cunning with manoeuvrability to devastating effect. Letting Dex to Assassinate means hes just some guy who can run up walls and roll at you without a single thought about anything.

[draven1]

Dex based Assassins currently can get better DPS over Int based...

How? Please enlighten me.


Dex: 2 base stats, ~2 enhancements, 4 tensers (no need for constant upkeep, hit when needed), 1 item (easy to slot the +4 exc, not so much for int), 0-2 ED, 2 Yugo Pot (I personally won't use for the pen on Int build but would on Dex, some might but I think most wouldn't) = 11-13 more dex with as much as 14 possible for +7 mod.


If you use tensor, you will get out of sneak, so, you will lose DC from measuring the foe.
So, Will you use tensor scroll 1st then sneak then wait for 5 sec & move to the mob then assassinate?
If you do that, the target might already be killed for most group situation.
Think why most rogues say 'scroll healing is not reliable source of healing on EE'. It's slow.
Don't forget tensor from scroll lasts for just 30 sec.

The +4 dex gear's slot is a necklace. But, one of the most desired +4 assassinate DC gear has also that slot.
I don't know how you can say it's easy to slot.
If you mention a mythic veneer, there is a mythic armor that gives also +4 int.

I think most anti-dex assassin guys just don't want to change their assassin's gear & style.
If dex gives you more DC & DPS as anti-dex guys say, why don't you adapt new style?
I saw many posts that wanted more DC & DPS, here's some help.

But, IMO, Dex builds doesn't offer much better DC & DPS than Int builds.
Just very similiar DC & DPS & save a feat. And most of all, it opens new build possibility :D

[Bobby88888]

How? Please enlighten me.



If you use tensor, you will get out of sneak, so, you will lose DC from measuring the foe.
So, Will you use tensor scroll 1st then sneak then wait for 5 sec & move to the mob then assassinate?
If you do that, the target might already be killed for most group situation.
Think why most rogues say 'scroll healing is not reliable source of healing on EE'. It's slow.
Don't forget tensor from scroll lasts for just 30 sec.

The +4 dex gear's slot is a necklace. But, one of the most desired +4 assassinate DC gear has also that slot.
I don't know how you can say it's easy to slot.
If you mention a mythic veneer, there is a mythic armor that gives also +4 int.

I think most anti-dex assassin guys just don't want to change their assassin's gear & style.
If dex gives you more DC & DPS as anti-dex guys say, why don't you adapt new style?
I saw many posts that wanted more DC & DPS, here's some help.

If you read my post I explained the DPS point.

Tensers isn't needed as I already outlined but if you want the extra DCs yes you can scroll it and measure or just scroll and go for the higher DC mobs only, as I already said. Its a situational bonus only if you need/want it. Some people might never use it but I know some Rogues who pop it at the start of most battles on live just for the BAB and con bonus so the DC boost is just icing.

Neck slot only gives me +60 hamp right now. would I miss it? Sure. Is it needed? No. Mythic Veneer is a viable alternative but it is only 1 dex different and frees up more AP if you don't slot it giving you more of other things. Tale your pick. As for the +4 int armour. It represents a DPS loss among other things and not something I would recommend using, whilst I would recommend using the +4 dex one if they changed the DC formula. Gearing is all about trade offs, but the dex +4 necklace is a no brainer as is not using the int +4 armour. In the end but it is only 1 DC different and you get quite a lot more DC that 1 less is insignificant if you don't want to regear for the new dex assassin being king.

Changing the gear is easy, I have everything I would want to put on already in my bank or inv, none of it is difficult to obtain. As to changing playstyle? Making Rogues rather easy play and removing the challenge and fun that is why I love the class is a fairly big change that I am not OK with and that I strongly oppose.
As for DCs I am opposed to a DC increase myself since I don't want it to be easy to get that awesome DC, It should require a lot to get the perfect DC, anyone can get into the useable DC area with a little effort but into the no fail DC requires a lot more. I am, however, especially opposed to making the highest DPS, survivability and DCs for dex builds. DPS can be increased through other means that is accessible to everyone and really that is all assassins need. If you allow dex for assassinate DC Int would become an absolutely terrible build choice for all the reasons I outlined in my previous post.

Even if you don't use the +4 dex necklace and tensers you can go into LD or crusader ED for massive damage boosts whilst still getting a better DC than Int based. And if you really skip out on Dex bonuses at worst you will be breaking even in DC but you have a lot more AP to spend on other bonuses to defences or dmg or utility.

To top it all off it kills the flavour of the class. Assassins ARE cunning. They have to be to do what they do, just because you can do 5 backflips in a row or something silly like that doesn't mean you have the know how and intellect to plan and execute an assassination. If Dex to assassinate DC gets added you could safely roll up a base 8 int assassin with no major downside.
On live for an Assassin it is a good idea to also raise Dex, there is the thresholds for 2wf feats and the Epic SA feat, it adds to hide and move silently which constitutes the 2nd half of the assassinate DC and gives more AC and open lock (not overly relevant but). The DC formula already includes Dex via hide and ms vs listen and spot to close in and kill and then to get away safely afterwards. Really I think this is all the role that Dex should play in the DC. Letting all of it be Dex based just makes it too easy to get both way up into the never ever fail any of it area.
Dumping Int will mean I don't get to max jump, tumble, diplo, etc. but I don't even use half of them in the 1st place but. and that is the biggest downside, which is to say no downside.

Letting Dex apply to assassinate DC does provide an 'easy button' of a sort as you will only need to raise Dex and Con as stats so they can both be maxed out even on a 1st life toon. It lets you get Dex to hit, damage, reflexes, assassinate DC/hide and ms for free; all on one stat. It means you can use a non int based or even non Dex based ED and still get at least as good if not better assassinate DC which Sev already said they didn't want to boost the assassinate DC.


Yes I want to play an Int based Assassin because that is what an assassin is. Call me biased if you want, but it doesn't change the validity of my points. But if you rolled an Int assassin with that change you would be seriously handicapping your build.

It opens up about as many build possibilities as it destroys, and will open the floodgate for the rise of the Halflings!!!!!! :P Where is the old gust of wind SLA bug when you need it.....

I mean you would be silly not to go Halfling or maybe SK if the Dex goes through and fades Int into antiquity.

I don't want to see my favourite class in the game ruined so I feel strongly on this topic and respectfully but firmly disagree with you and the Dex camp.

[Full_Bleed]

If you use tensor, you will get out of sneak, so, you will lose DC from measuring the foe.
So, Will you use tensor scroll 1st then sneak then wait for 5 sec & move to the mob then assassinate?
If you do that, the target might already be killed for most group situation.
Think why most rogues say 'scroll healing is not reliable source of healing on EE'. It's slow.
Don't forget tensor from scroll lasts for just 30 sec.
It lasts 66 seconds.

Personally, I'll just have two sneak macros set up. One that macro's a tensor's cast right before going into sneak and one without. 99% of the time it'll be used before engagement and will cost the assassin about 1 second. Comparing it to scroll healing in combat is silly. I'll take the bonus if turbine wants to give it too us, but it's just an annoyance because it'll be another consumable to keep track off... and I'd much rather have it be passive. We have enough hoops to jump through to play a good assassin as is... I know some of you guys think that everyone is running around with a 74 assassinate DC (not)... with this, there will be a newer benchmark that many of us aren't hitting and a new standard that the devs will build against. So, yeah, I'd take a passive bonus every day over having to play like this.


I think most anti-dex assassin guys just don't want to change their assassin's gear & style.
At least you're admitting that people will need to change their "style" (i.e. nearly everything about their current INT builds) with this change (even if they don't *want* to).

[slarden]

I'm no mind reader, but given that we are in the assassin thread talking about dex based assassins, I would guess the comment about dex based rogues being flavor builds was just poorly worded and intended to mean dex based assassins. If that's the case, it's true - dex based assassins are just flavor builds currently, and they're not even very tasty.

Agreed. There is currently one int-based tree and 2 dex-based trees. What is being proposed is 3 dex-based trees and one of the trees also allows int. I just think when we are looking at rogue we should look at rogue as a whole and not just one tree in isolation.

[slarden]

It lasts 66 seconds.

Personally, I'll just have two sneak macros set up. One that macro's a tensor's cast right before going into sneak and one without. 99% of the time it'll be used before engagement and will cost the assassin about 1 second. Comparing it to scroll healing in combat is silly.

This is exactly my thought. If you are getting ready to engage enemies with high fort saves you are obviously going to take that extra 1 second to scroll tenser's before going into sneak.

I wouldn't contemplate running it all the time, but the situational assassinate + bab bonus is worth the 1 second casting time.

[slarden]

~Assassinate: DC is in a good spot. with lots of investment and some sacrifices you can get it really good. I think that investment should be rewarded more by letting it bypass dw/db and letting it work on orange named (I noticed that it stopped working for me so either I always roll bad now on Orange nameds or it doesn't apply to them anymore?)



Orange named are immune to death effects on EH and EE. I never understood deathward/deathblock stopping assassinate which isn't a magical attack. I thought it should only make them immune to magical death effects, but be careful what you ask for there because that might mean enemy rogues can assassinate players even with deathblock and deathward lol.

[Bobby88888]

It lasts 66 seconds.

We have enough hoops to jump through to play a good assassin as is... I know some of you guys think that everyone is running around with a 74 assassinate DC (not)... with this, there will be a newer benchmark that many of us aren't hitting and a new standard that the devs will build against. So, yeah, I'd take a passive bonus every day over having to play like this.

Ok good to know it lasts 66 seconds, never used it so just believed what I read.

I am not running with a 74 Assassinate DC personally. I could but I am ok with the odd failure to give me some other interesting things to play around with. I think this is good this way. You can get no fail if you really invest everything into it but for those who don't want to or havn't gotten all the bits and pieces together yet for it you can still get a good DC that works most of the time. Swapping to Dex to assassinate (same thing as adding it in the end) lets anyone and everyone get the no fail assassinate DC without the investment. Getting off your double assassinates is no longer an achievement but rather something that everyone expects. Especially if Tensers lasts for 66 seconds.

No one goes "yay I just Coup De Graced that mob" or QP etc. because it is easy to do, anyone can do it with little to no work or investment. That is what Dex to assassinate DC will do to the Rogue and I don't want to see that happen. Even if all the rest of the insta kills have become stock standard at least let Assassinate stay that one insta kill you have to work for. If people don't like that they can play a monk, or bard, etc and get their easy meaningless insta kills.

Sev you said your design goal was to make assassin fun to play. Well Dex to assassinate DC will do the exact opposite, the fun is in the investment and ultimately cumulating in the assassinate DC that you had to work for, not that you were just handed for free. Where is the fun in being given an ability that will always work without you having to even try?

[Bobby88888]

Orange named are immune to death effects on EH and EE. I never understood deathward/deathblock stopping assassinate which isn't a magical attack. I thought it should only make them immune to magical death effects, but be careful what you ask for there because that might mean enemy rogues can assassinate players even with deathblock and deathward lol.

I didn't think they could assassinate but bring it on :D
maybe only on EH and or EE but to add more challenge to those difficulties and make spot and listen more valued skills.

I am all for this. Scrap the Orange named immunity to (at least non magical) death effects and DB/DW stopping nonmagical death effects!!!!

[slarden]

How? Please enlighten me.

If you use tensor, you will get out of sneak, so, you will lose DC from measuring the foe.
So, Will you use tensor scroll 1st then sneak then wait for 5 sec & move to the mob then assassinate?
If you do that, the target might already be killed for most group situation.
Think why most rogues say 'scroll healing is not reliable source of healing on EE'. It's slow.
Don't forget tensor from scroll lasts for just 30 sec.

But, IMO, Dex builds doesn't offer much better DC & DPS than Int builds.
Just very similiar DC & DPS & save a feat. And most of all, it opens new build possibility :D

You can cast tensor's on yourself and then go into sneak. If you are facing an enemy with a high fort save you won't mind the 1 second to cast the scroll or the 5 seconds for everything to charge up. It charges up while you are moving so that is a complete non-issue.

Tensor's from scroll lasts over 1 minute, but you are really only using it situationally and 1 min is more than enough for this consumable buff.

If the concern is that dex builds aren't strong enough that should be addressed in the 2 trees that are dex-based rather than the 1 tree that is int-based. If the concern is assassin is too weak, we should buff the assassin tree directly rather than proxy-buffing it by making it another dex tree which adds strength.

[Ayseifn]

I'm anti dex for assassinate because this is band aid for the open wound that is dex based anything and will block adding more dex boosters to the game, especially for acrobats who really need it.


The days of dex being a really good stat are mostly gone, AC is worthless for the most part and especially so on a rogue because they don't get any bonuses to it at all. Reflex saves are still good but Armour Up eroded some of that in the general sense(heavy armoured wizards) but for int based rogues it's still just one heroic feat.

If dex was a really good idea for assassins because of DC abilities then we're back to worrying about stat inflation, stat inflation woes mean that mechs and acrobats wont get decent boosts to make more dex viable, it also means no generic boosters like con/str have will ever come to be and it'll be just like caster stats like cha/wis/int.

I'd love to see assassins be viable with something other than dagger/kukri and int but it seems really hard to disentangle that mess, it'd also be expensive and time consuming which seems to be something Turbine doesn't have the funds for these days unfortunately. The best fix I can think of with that as a given is make a TWF dex tree similar to what was done with Harper, keep it P2W if you want I'll buy it just so I can make a ranger or rogue that'd hopefully out DPS a TWFing barb and isn't tied down to daggers.

[Saekee]

I love dex builds but vote against a dex-based assassinate. It feels wrong. A high stealth score can be achieved with the right tools; a super-high Dex is not necessary.

For a non-assassinating dex-based assassin, see my Twilight blade build in my sig.

[brzytki]

Holy s**t guys, I've just finished my DEX build vs CThru's INT build and I have to say I didn't expect to gain so much power. True, compared to his build + completionist I'm losing 3 DC, but on every other build (read: no Yugo INT pot, no INT twist) I'd be only 1 DC behind while rocking sick DPS in LD. If you guys want I can post my build but it's gonna be 3 pictures of 3 sheets of A4 paper (since I still have only my smartphone and typing out a build is such a PITA).

[CThruTheEgo]

Holy s**t guys, I've just finished my DEX build vs CThru's INT build and I have to say I didn't expect to gain so much power. True, compared to his build + completionist I'm losing 3 DC, but on every other build (read: no Yugo INT pot, no INT twist) I'd be only 1 DC behind while rocking sick DPS in LD. If you guys want I can post my build but it's gonna be 3 pictures of 3 sheets of A4 paper (since I still have only my smartphone and typing out a build is such a PITA).

I'd be interested in those details, but I don't mind waiting until it's more convenient for you to post them.

[brzytki]

I'd be interested in those details, but I don't mind waiting until it's more convenient for you to post them.
Nah, I'll try to post it today, gonna upload it to some hosting site and give links to pictures. Just not right now because I've run out of time. I'm just interested in your Enhancements picks from the revamp on your build, cause let's face it you'll be probably spending around 46 APs in assassin's tree like me and because of it you'll have to cut some APs from racial, Harper or acrobat tree.

[dualscissors]

I echo a recurring sentiment in this thread that Dex for Assassinate is a good thing *(only) with regard to it being an option that creates more build diversity*.

But after mulling it over a while, I realistically don't see any way not to admit that Dex is considerably more pumpable than Int and by a substantial margin and obsoleting Int based assassins would be unfortunate.

Dex sources without equivalent Int sources:

*Shadow Dodge toggle for +3
*Yugo favor pots +2 (some can argue for Int Yugo pots but I think the fort'n penalty is awful)
*Tenser's scrolls +4

--
+9 stat superiority (or still +7 if you're not sold on the Yugo pot argument)

Yeah, the last two might not be something you keep up all the time, but they are convenient and dirt-cheap enough to pop on before Assassinating for a +3 DC boost in any content where the +3 DC upgrade is helpful. Drinking a pot and scrolling while running to the next melee is really really easy.

Let's be honest, a +9 stat increase for +4.5 DC boost is huge.

Sure you're Know the Angles and skill points might go down a bit by going the Dex route, but who really wouldn't trade a modest to moderate hit on those to boost the assassin's bread and butter DC by several points? Especially when that boost to DC makes it viable for Dex builds to splash a multiclass or go Legendary Dreadnought.




So how to keep the awesomeness of Dex as an option but move toward Int as the superior Assassinate stat...

1. What if the Assassin capstone acknowleged Int as the traditional route: +4 Int, +0 Dex?

If you want to avoid buying Insightful Reflexes (feat) and APs for Int/hit/dmg from Harper, then you have to struggle a little more to scrounge up Dex toward your assassinate AC. That's the trade off.

2. As for Shadow Dodge, it's low enough hanging fruit in Thief Acrobat for an assassin crossover at 10APs and grab a quick +3 to Dex. Ouch to Int based assassins! How many enhancements grant a +3 stat bonus as a tier-3? What if Shadow Dodge was moved to a tier-5 enhancement to prevent it from being used by assassins, while still offering it to true acrobats?


Otherwise, I don't see how Int can compete with Dex and would (sadly) recommend against more build options for the sake of balance.

[slarden]

Replace my existing insightful reflexes feat on a sun elf (was chosen before harper tree was available) with dragonmark of healing on a halfing.

From Racial Tree: 17
2x Saves from core
2x Dex from core
Jorasco dragonmark focus x1
Lesser dragonmark of healing
Guile from tier 2
Guile from tier 3
Greater dragonmark of healing
Guile from tier 4

From Assassin Tree: 42 - I am currently spending 42 and free up 6 AP. 6 AP spend TBD

From Thief-Acrobat Tree:
First core: 1
Speed boost: 3
Sly Flourish: 3
Subtletly: 3
Shadow Dodge: 3

From Harper Tree:
First core: 1
Harper Enchantment: 2
Traveller's Toughness: 2
Know the Angles: 3

I take 3 less stat bonus in tree vs. my int build but gain 1 from necklace and 2 from yugo pots giving me the exact same DC as a drow int build. Plus I have 2 extra dc available as a consumable from tenser's. If you don't want to use the necklace you can give up the last guile and replace it with dex in another tree.

I lose 4 damage from know the angles and gain 3 sneak attack dice. I lose daunting roar but the extra self-healing ultimately adds more utility. If I don't think I need the self healing I can lose the dragon mark and one guile and get more dex. If I am using paralyzers/mortal fear weapons (for folks that made their tier 3 a trash beater instead of a boss beater) I can give up the racial tree abilities and take no mercy to turn my mortal fear weapons into insta-killers.

Lots of options - all better than an int-build in my opinion. If they give dex builds assassinate they will need to buff int builds for balance reasons.

[slarden]

I echo a recurring sentiment in this thread that Dex for Assassinate is a good thing *(only) with regard to it being an option that creates more build diversity*.

But after mulling it over a while, I realistically don't see any way not to admit that Dex is considerably more pumpable than Int and by a substantial margin and obsoleting Int based assassins would be unfortunate.

Dex sources without equivalent Int sources:

*Shadow Dodge toggle for +3
*Yugo favor pots +2 (some can argue for Int Yugo pots but I think the fort'n penalty is awful)
*Tenser's scrolls +4

--
+9 stat superiority (or still +7 if you're not sold on the Yugo pot argument)

Yeah, the last two might not be something you keep up all the time, but they are convenient and dirt-cheap enough to pop on before Assassinating for a +3 DC boost in any content where the +3 DC upgrade is helpful. Drinking a pot and scrolling while running to the next melee is really really easy.

Let's be honest, a +9 stat increase for +4.5 DC boost is huge.

Sure you're Know the Angles and skill points might go down a bit by going the Dex route, but who really wouldn't trade a modest to moderate hit on those to boost the assassin's bread and better DC by several points?




So how to keep the awesomeness of Dex as an option but move toward Int as the superior Assassinate stat...

1. What if the Assassin capstone acknowleged Int as the traditional route: +4 Int, +0 Dex?

If you want to avoid buying Insightful Reflexes (feat) and APs for Int/hit/dmg from Harper, then you have to struggle a little more to scrounge up Dex toward your assassinate AC. That's the trade off.

2. As for Shadow Dodge, it's low enough hanging fruit in Thief Acrobat for an assassin crossover at 10APs and grab a quick +3 to Dex. Ouch to Int based assassins! How many enhancements grant a +3 stat bonus as a tier-3? What if Shadow Dodge was moved to a tier-5 enhancement to prevent it from being used by assassins, while still offering it to true acrobats?


Otherwise, I don't see how Int can compete with Dex and would (sadly) recommend against more build options for the sake of balance.

I agree four things are needed to balance int/dex builds if they want to give dex builds assassinate:
1) grant int to hit and int to damage in the assassin tree
2) the capstone should include +4 int and +0 dex instead of +2 int and +2 dex
3) the capstone should autogrant insightful reflexes
4) change executioner's strike in shadowdancer to use dex or int

[dualscissors]

I agree four things are needed to balance int/dex builds if they want to give dex builds assassinate:
1) grant int to hit and int to damage in the assassin tree
2) the capstone should include +4 int and +0 dex instead of +2 int and +2 dex
3) the capstone should autogrant insightful reflexes
4) change executioner's strike in shadowdancer to use dex or int

Good suggestions.

I guess I wonder how receptive the Dev team would be to adding a feat (Insightful Reflexes) to the capstone and add more changes to Exec. Strike.

As much as I may see your point with Int to hit/dmg, it would be a brassy move to largely gut the Harper tree's usefulness.

Any sympathy for Shadow Dodge being too low hanging in TA? It's a +3 bonus to Dex builds without an Int equivalent that is too easy to pick up at the 10AP threshold. That nearly makes up for the proposed +4 (which is currently just +2) Int bonus for capstone. And again, it's a T-3. ...Or maybe the toggle could be limited to holding a staff...?

[slarden]

Good suggestions.

I guess I wonder how receptive the Dev team would be to adding a feat (Insightful Reflexes) to the capstone and add more changes to Exec. Strike.

Any sympathy for Shadow Dodge being too low hanging in TA? That seems like a +3 bonus to Dex without an Int equivalent that is too easy to pick up at the 10AP threshold.

Until Silverleafon thanked Sev for listening to him and not increasing rogue sneak speed, I didn't fully appreciate that sev is being heavily influenced by just a few people that may or may not being playing rogue. I can't imagine anyone that seriously plays a rogue in group play not understanding why more sneak speed is a good thing so I think I know the answer to that. All pigs are equal but some pigs are more equal than other pigs. It depends on what the more equal pigs think. I was previously under the delusion that the council was used as a first pass and then full forum feedback was used to finalize and tweak.

I don't care about shadow dodge honestly if they do the other 4 things to even things out. We get 4 additional damage from know the angles as an int-based assassin so it kind of balances things that dex builds get cheaper dex which can be used for other dex goodness.

[brzytki]

Ok guys, let's take a look at the monster I've created and tell me honestly if you'd still pay INT build if you'd have a choice. Link http://imgur.com/a/WVAKj
The picture at the bottom is first, then middle one and top one.

[Fedora1]

I see a couple things beng talked about from different angles here.

On the one hand some people complain that the DC for assassinate sucks because Coup de Gras is better.
On the other hand, they don't want to make Assassinate use Dex or INT, because it would kill INT assassin builds.
On the other hand (er, foot?) right now an assassin that is built for assassinating is limited to INT builds.
On the last foot, a DEX assassin would have way too high a DC compared to INT assassins.
But assassinate DC is too low, well because Coup de Gras....

What about something like DC= 10 + Rogue Level + 1/2 Bluff skill?
I was thinking maybe MS or HS but then that goes right back to DEX based...

[brzytki]

I see a couple things beng talked about from different angles here.

On the one hand some people complain that the DC for assassinate sucks because Coup de Gras is better.
On the other hand, they don't want to make Assassinate use Dex or INT, because it would kill INT assassin builds.
On the other hand (er, foot?) right now an assassin that is built for assassinating is limited to INT builds.
On the last foot, a DEX assassin would have way too high a DC compared to INT assassins.
But assassinate DC is too low, well because Coup de Gras....

What about something like DC= 10 + Rogue Level + 1/2 Bluff skill?
I was thinking maybe MS or HS but then that goes right back to DEX based...

No one says assassinate DC sucks. If you build for it, you'll have a workable DC for the toughest content. Our gripe with CdG is that you can put absolutely minimal effort into raising your DC and you'll still have higher DC than assassins (lootgen perform +20? for 20 more DC from only 1 item).

Only changing the formula to include DEX will be the end of INT builds, they need to get some serious buffs if the Devs want variety between INT and DEX builds.

DEX assassin could get more DC than a max INT build, but with Measure stacking every 1 second, not 2 seconds, it's not a big deal cause for now you have close to 100% chance to assassinate with all stacks on a max INT build. They would settle for similar or slightly lower DC while having many more advantages over INT based ones.

[dualscissors]

I see a couple things beng talked about from different angles here.

On the one hand some people complain that the DC for assassinate sucks because Coup de Gras is better.
On the other hand, they don't want to make Assassinate use Dex or INT, because it would kill INT assassin builds.
On the other hand (er, foot?) right now an assassin that is built for assassinating is limited to INT builds.
On the last foot, a DEX assassin would have way too high a DC compared to INT assassins.
But assassinate DC is too low, well because Coup de Gras....

What about something like DC= 10 + Rogue Level + 1/2 Bluff skill?
I was thinking maybe MS or HS but then that goes right back to DEX based...

I think it is what it is with regard to Coup. My recollection in this thread is that Sev stated that Coup's skill ranks-based formula wasn't a terrific decision in retrospect. Wronging a right by committing further wrongs to DC abiliites (be it assassins or casters) isn't going to happen.

I think we just have to move on from this aspect of Swashbucklers - maybe someday it will be nerfed if it is too egregiously hurting the game.

[redoubt]

Good suggestions.

I guess I wonder how receptive the Dev team would be to adding a feat (Insightful Reflexes) to the capstone and add more changes to Exec. Strike.

As much as I may see your point with Int to hit/dmg, it would be a brassy move to largely gut the Harper tree's usefulness.

Any sympathy for Shadow Dodge being too low hanging in TA? It's a +3 bonus to Dex builds without an Int equivalent that is too easy to pick up at the 10AP threshold. That nearly makes up for the proposed +4 (which is currently just +2) Int bonus for capstone. And again, it's a T-3. ...Or maybe the toggle could be limited to holding a staff...?

INT to hit/damage was asked for by assassins. The devs gave us a new tree to buy instead of putting it in assassin in the first place.

Melee wizards can still get benefit from strategic combat in harper.

[redoubt]

Nevermind, bring on the dex assassins.

1. They will allow people to run in ANY destiny they want (i.e. LD or DC)

2. More people will play rogues then and I won't have to use the stupid rogue hires which never spot anything.

I will be sad at the disappearance of INT assassins, but if the devs want them to stick around, there are plenty of suggestions for that too:
1. INT to hit/damage in the assassin tree
2. someone suggested putting insightful reflexes in the assassin capstone.

[brzytki]

Nevermind, bring on the dex assassins. Haha, you've seen something you like? :P

[brzytki]

So, I've posted my DEX build. Please someone show me a better or similar or even one that won't be left miles behind INT build.

And I have a question for IronClan, Chaios, Chai and draven1: "Where is your KtA god now?"

[Chaios]

...And I have a question for IronClan, Chaios, Chai and draven1: "Where is your KtA god now?"
Only thing I remember contributing to this facet of the general discussion is the point that the most obvious advantage DEX has over INT is the potential for more AC, and that if AC doesn't matter, then allowing the assassinate DC to use either mod wont matter, except to improve the DC for DEX builds. I also wrote that I think changing the save from fortitude to reflex makes more sense to me. It makes more sense thematically, in the sense that the hardest thing for an Assassin to Assassinate should be another Assassin, and practically, in that it frees the Assassinate DC from having to match or exceed the DC of other insta-kill effects to be useful.

Also, I remember when Monk/Acrobat STR builds were the kings of DPS and it seemed almost impossible to find a Rogue that could to disable a trap. Not because a Rogue with an 8 INT can't do traps, but because a Rogue with an 8 INT can't do traps without going to the kind of effort that even people who know how to do it usually can't be bothered with.

Right now, a brand new Assassin player is very likely to build for INT because it is the obvious choice for the Assassinate DC, and by happy accident the character will be able to do most traps without needing any special guidance. I suspect that with a change to allow either DEX or INT to modify the Assassinate DC, INT will again become a dump stat, and most Rogue players who aren't specifically concerned about trapping will be unable to it.

But if trapping doesn't matter, then it doesn't matter that many (if not most) Rogues would choose not to be able to trap if INT weren't also the DC stat of Assassinate.

[brzytki]

Also, I remember when Monk/Acrobat STR builds were the kings of DPS and it seemed almost impossible to find a Rogue that could to disable a trap. Not because a Rogue with an 8 INT can't do traps, but because a Rogue with an 8 INT can't do traps without going to the kind of effort that even people who know how to do it usually can't be bothered with.

Right now, a brand new Assassin player is very likely to build for INT because it is the obvious choice for the Assassinate DC, and by happy accident the character will be able to do most traps without needing any special guidance. I suspect that with a change to allow either DEX or INT to modify the Assassinate DC, INT will again become a dump stat, and most Rogue players who aren't specifically concerned about trapping will be unable to it.

But if trapping doesn't matter, then it doesn't matter that many (if not most) Rogues would choose not to be able to trap if INT weren't also the DC stat of Assassinate.

Well, a brand new assassin player is not going to fail disabling traps due to lower INT but because of lack of the gear. But it's nothing new, it's been that way since the beginning. True, it might lessen his burden but I'd rather have him having problems from the beginning and realizing he needs some help than living in blissful ignorance till mid levels.

I don't think it will be true that rogue players would neglect trapping, especially after what Sev said about ToEE traps. Unless you plan to start with 8 INT and no tomes you'll have enough skill points per level to put in all relevant trap skills. And you have to spend these points. Only lazy people won't be doing traps. You are right, saying INT might end up as a dump stat but it will be because in today's DDO having low INT doesn't mean you'll be blowing boxes, we have all these skill tomes, ship buffs, gs +6 skill items, ML:1 GH pots and so on.

[draven1]

So, I've posted my DEX build. Please someone show me a better or similar or even one that won't be left miles behind INT build.

And I have a question for IronClan, Chaios, Chai and draven1: "Where is your KtA god now?"

Don't underestimate INT builds, they will have 6 melee power more then DEX builds from harper tree.
You know you can't take both melee power from harper & racial SA, because of lack of AP unless you give up significant amount of AP on assassin tree.

Dex build will have 3d6(9 dmg) SA from racial, but, Int builds will have more raw plain damage from KtA & they will have more melee power(6),
so, Int builds have more non-situational & crittable damage source, melee power also boosts SA, too.
If you have 150 dmg SA, additional 6 melee power gives you 9 SA dmg itself.
Give you more dmg from your raw dmg & it can be multiplied by crits.

WHICH ONE IS BETTER, Kyorli?
I can't understand how dex builds can give you more DPS than int builds now.
Dex builds are inferior than Int builds on BOTH DPS & DC now.

[Ayseifn]

Good suggestions.

I guess I wonder how receptive the Dev team would be to adding a feat (Insightful Reflexes) to the capstone and add more changes to Exec. Strike.

As much as I may see your point with Int to hit/dmg, it would be a brassy move to largely gut the Harper tree's usefulness.

Any sympathy for Shadow Dodge being too low hanging in TA? It's a +3 bonus to Dex builds without an Int equivalent that is too easy to pick up at the 10AP threshold. That nearly makes up for the proposed +4 (which is currently just +2) Int bonus for capstone. And again, it's a T-3. ...Or maybe the toggle could be limited to holding a staff...?

So you want to nerf shadow dodge even harder than it already was just so assassins don't all swap over to dex based? Acrobats could still use some more dex to make it viable option.

As for changing the capstone to +4 int and +0 dex that'd be interesting. Opens up monk splash again but with knife spec the way it is not sure if it'd be worth it.

[oradafu]

Any sympathy for Shadow Dodge being too low hanging in TA?

Ha! Sneak Faster at Tier 1 was too much of a AP burden for Assassins that it was moved to the Assassin tree, but Tier 3 Shadow Dodge is considered low hanging fruit?!

[brzytki]

Don't underestimate INT builds, they will have 6 melee power more then DEX builds from harper tree.
You know you can't take both melee power from harper & racial SA, because of lack of AP unless you give up significant amount of AP on assassin tree.

Dex build will have 3d6(9 dmg) SA from racial, but, Int builds will have more raw plain damage from KtA & they will have more melee power(6),
so, Int builds have more non-situational & crittable damage source, melee power also boosts SA, too.
If you have 150 dmg SA, additional 6 melee power gives you 9 SA dmg itself.
Give you more dmg from your raw dmg & it can be multiplied by crits.

WHICH ONE IS BETTER, Kyorli?
I can't understand how dex builds can give you more DPS than int builds now.
Dex builds are inferior than Int builds on BOTH DPS & DC now.

So I take it you are still rambling. Please before you post at least look at the build I posted. You are talking about melee power? I'll be in LD blitzing lol I'll have twice MP of an INT assassin in SD. You want to talk about multipliers? How about Balanced Attacks, Damage Boost, No Mercy, Helplessness, and core6 from LD.
If you say you can't understand then I'll tell you this: the first step to understanding is reading what other people posted.

And we aren't talking about now, we are talking after the change.

[Bobby88888]

Don't underestimate INT builds, they will have 6 melee power more then DEX builds from harper tree.
You know you can't take both melee power from harper & racial SA, because of lack of AP unless you give up significant amount of AP on assassin tree.

Dex build will have 3d6(9 dmg) SA from racial, but, Int builds will have more raw plain damage from KtA & they will have more melee power(6),
so, Int builds have more non-situational & crittable damage source, melee power also boosts SA, too.
If you have 150 dmg SA, additional 6 melee power gives you 9 SA dmg itself.
Give you more dmg from your raw dmg & it can be multiplied by crits.

WHICH ONE IS BETTER, Kyorli?
I can't understand how dex builds can give you more DPS than int builds now.
Dex builds are inferior than Int builds on BOTH DPS & DC now.

I'm sorry what????? If you are talking on live right now Dex can get far better DPS but it won't be worth your time to assassinate all but the lowest fort save mobs.
If you are talking with the proposed changes Dex gets at least as good DC, if not better, with more DPS and survivability. Think about it, crunch some numbers, roll up a build. And you can easily see this.
If you aren't going to take the time to look at it properly please just stop making nonsense statements like this.

The discrepancy between Dex and Int would be so great if Dex to assassinate DC was added that to balance it you would have to scrap the entire class and probably harper too and start them over again which isn't practicle.

@Fedora1: Assassinate DC is in a good spot right now since if you focus on it you can get it into the nofail range but you can branch out a bit and still get a very good DC. Or you can ignore it for the most part/entirely and get a lot more damage and or survivability. Sev already said they didn't want to add any more skills as DCs and I am with them there, not to mention usign bluff would make it a Cha based DC with Dex secondary and cuts out Int builds a bit too.
The issue with Coup De Grace is how easy it is to get the DC to work with no investment, which is what Dex to assassinate DC does to a lesser but still very noticeable extent.

@redoubt: You can already run in an ED you want, you just can't go outside of an Int ED if you want to hit nofail DC, a good DC is still achievable in other EDs.
If your issue is having to use Rogue hirelings and that is why you want Dex based assassins so more people will go there for the brokenness of being dependant on a single stat then really you are looking at this all wrong, from a non rogue perspective.
None of those suggestions would be enough for the Int build to remain viable.

@brzytki: I only skimmed over your build but it looks something like what I saw happening from Dex to assassinate DC and no one could possibly show you an Int based Assassin even in the same realm as what Dex could hit.

Having taken these changes as a whole I have however developed concerns about being able to be at 99% dodge or more for 1 minute in every 2 given the right build. That seems a little OP to me. Especially if Dex to assassinate DC is allowed since it removes the biggest drawback (which still wasn't that big) of going that route. With other bonuses included that's ~ 0.5% chance of being hit at your weakest with 0% for some of that time.

I also still think faster sneaking should get a buff if that counts for anything.

[draven1]

I'm sorry what????? If you are talking on live right now Dex can get far better DPS but it won't be worth your time to assassinate all but the lowest fort save mobs.
If you are talking with the proposed changes Dex gets at least as good DC, if not better, with more DPS and survivability. Think about it, crunch some numbers, roll up a build. And you can easily see this.
If you aren't going to take the time to look at it properly please just stop making nonsense statements like this.

The discrepancy between Dex and Int would be so great if Dex to assassinate DC was added that to balance it you would have to scrap the entire class and probably harper too and start them over again which isn't practicle.

@Fedora1: Assassinate DC is in a good spot right now since if you focus on it you can get it into the nofail range but you can branch out a bit and still get a very good DC. Or you can ignore it for the most part/entirely and get a lot more damage and or survivability. Sev already said they didn't want to add any more skills as DCs and I am with them there, not to mention usign bluff would make it a Cha based DC with Dex secondary and cuts out Int builds a bit too.
The issue with Coup De Grace is how easy it is to get the DC to work with no investment, which is what Dex to assassinate DC does to a lesser but still very noticeable extent.

@redoubt: You can already run in an ED you want, you just can't go outside of an Int ED if you want to hit nofail DC, a good DC is still achievable in other EDs.
If your issue is having to use Rogue hirelings and that is why you want Dex based assassins so more people will go there for the brokenness of being dependant on a single stat then really you are looking at this all wrong, from a non rogue perspective.
None of those suggestions would be enough for the Int build to remain viable.

@brzytki: I only skimmed over your build but it looks something like what I saw happening from Dex to assassinate DC and no one could possibly show you an Int based Assassin even in the same realm as what Dex could hit.

Having taken these changes as a whole I have however developed concerns about being able to be at 99% dodge or more for 1 minute in every 2 given the right build. That seems a little OP to me. Especially if Dex to assassinate DC is allowed since it removes the biggest drawback (which still wasn't that big) of going that route. With other bonuses included that's ~ 0.5% chance of being hit at your weakest with 0% for some of that time.

I also still think faster sneaking should get a buff if that counts for anything.

So, how you can get better DPS on dex build on live?
Can you give some clue for why Dex builds gives more DPS?
I can't see any clue on these threads.

[draven1]

So I take it you are still rambling. Please before you post at least look at the build I posted. You are talking about melee power? I'll be in LD blitzing lol I'll have twice MP of an INT assassin in SD. You want to talk about multipliers? How about Balanced Attacks, Damage Boost, No Mercy, Helplessness, and core6 from LD.
If you say you can't understand then I'll tell you this: the first step to understanding is reading what other people posted.

And we aren't talking about now, we are talking after the change.

Why do you think INT assassin can't use LD, too?

INT assassin on LD will outDPS DEX assassin on LD now. Because INT assassin will have more melee power & better KtA.

[Bobby88888]

@draven1:
They can get more DPS via the freed up APs to invest into racial or acro tree for damage bonuses and can go outside of SD easier than Int for higher DPS EDs like DC and LD.

Int assassins can use LD too. BUT they will loose their no fail DC and still wont get up to the dmg or defences a dex build would have. Whilst a Dex build would keep a higher and no fail Assassinate DC than Int in addition to the better damage and defences.

[brzytki]

Why do you think INT assassin can't use LD, too?

INT assassin on LD will outDPS DEX assassin on LD now. Because INT assassin will have more melee power.

Haha, if you are so confident then roll a build and show me. I can't wait to see it. And when you do, ask yourself why your DC is lower, why your DPS is lower, why you wasted a feat and APs when you could go DEX and be better.

[slarden]

Don't underestimate INT builds....

People wouldn't be simultaneously be lobbying for dex assassin builds while claiming int builds are stronger if they didn't already understand how good an assassin would be with dex as his/her main stat. I am not complaining - if they make this change I will have no problem switching to a dex build.

Int builds will be significantly underperforming compared to dex builds when this change takes place. My starting stats are going to be 20/16 or 16/20for int/dex regardless so at worst you lose 10 skill points and 5 damage from know the angles, but the available options are much better than what you are giving up primarily because as a dex build you have some significant advantages:

1) One extra feat since insightful reflexes is not needed
2) no need to take strategic combat I and II from the harper tree saving 4 AP directly
3) Saving 3 AP on your main stat by taking shadow dodge for 3 dex instead of taking 3x int for 6 AP.
4) Saving 4 AP because there is no real downside to dex yugo pots while 50% reduction in fort is a bit much for a rogue so int yugo pots aren't even used by me while dex pots would always be used
5) Save 2 AP from harper tree since there is no need to spend 10 pts in the tree to have access to strategic combat II
6) 10 Increase to armor class
7) Ability to use tenser's transformation scrolls as a consumable to buff assassinate DC by 2 for one minute.
8) 10 more skill points for balance, hide, move silently and open lock
9) Synergies with the thief acrobat tree allowing you to specialize in both since they are both dex-based
10) 3% extra dodge via shadow dodge
11) executioner's strike shot from shadowdancer is dex based

Advantages for an int build
1) 5 more damage from know the angles
2) 10 more skill points for search and disable device
3) Use of daunting roar as a cc epic destiny twist
4) 30% extra fortification since not penalized by shadow dodge.
5) Shadow manipulation from shadowdancer is int-based
6) Consume from shadowdancer is int-based

The 6 melee power and damage vs. evil is not really an advantage for either build since they are available to both. You can still take everything else in the harper tree, it's just likely there are better choices since you are no longer needing strategic combat I and II.

Can you think of any other advantages of an int build that aren't available to both classes?

[draven1]

Haha, if you are so confident then roll a build and show me. I can't wait to see it. And when you do, ask yourself why your DC is lower, why your DPS is lower, why you wasted a feat and APs when you could go DEX and be better.

If you want, I think we can just meet(because you & I are in same server).
Sorry, I am sad I've never seen any rogue better than me in my server yet since 2008. I know we've met already, too.
Even I didn't take completionist, not max DC, not 2 TF MF weapons. Just 3rd life gimp rogue.
You can enlighten me how uber your rogue is :D

[redoubt]

Only thing I remember contributing to this facet of the general discussion is the point that the most obvious advantage DEX has over INT is the potential for more AC, and that if AC doesn't matter, then allowing the assassinate DC to use either mod wont matter, except to improve the DC for DEX builds. I also wrote that I think changing the save from fortitude to reflex makes more sense to me. It makes more sense thematically, in the sense that the hardest thing for an Assassin to Assassinate should be another Assassin, and practically, in that it frees the Assassinate DC from having to match or exceed the DC of other insta-kill effects to be useful.
.

An assassinate attempt when they are aware of us would make sense in that case. Dex vs Dex (i.e reflex save). But against an enemy that is unaware of use (i.e. we are sneaking and don't have agro) fort makes sense. They are not dodging or avoiding us in anyway. Its about determining if their body is tough enough to survive the assassinate attempt (thus a fort save.)

But maybe that would be a flavor change to the other pseudo assassinates that don't require sneak, to put them against the reflex save instead...?

[brzytki]

If you want, I think we can just meet(because you & I are in same server).
Sorry, I am sad I've never seen any rogue better than me in my server yet.
Even I didn't take completionist, not max DC, not 2 TF MF weapons. Just 3rd life gimp rogue.
You can enlighten me how uber your rogue is :D

Lol don't need to make it personal and feel insulted, we are talking about builds, not our characters.

If you really think you are right, then take CThru's build and convert it to LD, for arguments' sake keeping ED points and APs in assassin tree spent like on my build. First, choose your twists and then spend other APs. Then you'll see that to stay somewhat competitive in DPS you'll need to drop your INT by 10 points, which gives you DC 2 pints lower than my build while I can still easily burst for 2 more. You'll have lower saves, no defensive roll, lower dodge, lower threat reduction, maybe +20 hamp, slightly more MP, but no No Mercy, maybe 8-9 straight damage more, one less feat for example rogue PL, slightly better positive spell power. But don't trust me, do it yourself. If after this you'll still claim that INT based is better, then I can't help you see the light anymore.

[Monkey-Boy]

if you want, i think we can just meet(because you & i are in same server).
Sorry, i am sad i've never seen any rogue better than me in my server yet since 2008.

lol

[changelingamuck]

Lol don't need to make it personal and feel insulted, we are talking about builds, not our characters.

If you really think you are right, then take CThru's build and convert it to LD, for arguments' sake keeping ED points and APs in assassin tree spent like on my build. First, choose your twists and then spend other APs. Then you'll see that to stay somewhat competitive in DPS you'll need to drop your INT by 10 points, which gives you DC 2 pints lower than my build while I can still easily burst for 2 more. You'll have lower saves, no defensive roll, lower dodge, lower threat reduction, maybe +20 hamp, slightly more MP, but no No Mercy, maybe 8-9 straight damage more, one less feat for example rogue PL, slightly better positive spell power. But don't trust me, do it yourself. If after this you'll still claim that INT based is better, then I can't help you see the light anymore.

Regardless of who's ultimately right and who's ultimately wrong, I don't think the person you're arguing with is going to assemble thorough evidence rather than 'gut feeling' and cherry-picked assertions. That's why they responded with bragging and a pvp challenge to settle a theorycrafting argument...

[Full_Bleed]

Sorry, I am sad I've never seen any rogue better than me in my server yet since 2008.

So, be honest, you're going to stay with an INT build after DEX works with assassinate confident that your uberness will overcome any exaggerated claims that DEX builds will dominate?

Well, I guess that makes one of you.

[jaggyjag]

~ A sneaking assassin seems pretty quick to me, but I admittedly haven't played it in a group since we just finished putting it into Assassin. It will be good feedback from Lamannia.

~ How do people feel about making Shadow Dagger and Assassinate use the best of Intelligence or Dexterity in the DC formula for Dexterity based Assassins? Would this make working synergies too easy?

~ The way Melee and Ranged Power works is this:

If MP is positive, the multiplier to damage is (100 + Rating)/100.
If MP is negative, the multiplier to damage is 100/(100 + Rating)

Note that many monsters do not currently have any Melee or Ranged Power. (I'd have to check if the champion buffs use MP and RP or just a straight damage boost.)

Sev~


Sev,

All the Assassin back and forth has been great but it's time to get down to brass tack before this is up and running on Lammannia. The most important issue for a assassin is assassinating. Lucky for all of us players and for you Devs the answer has made itself quite clear the past months:

Assassinate's DC should be a skill based number similar to the Bard's Coup De grace. since Turbine went that way with the swashbuckler it's the only rational move that can be taken with the assassin class, whose primary role is to assassinate. I have spoken with many of my guild and raiding friends and really I would have to say getting Assassination fixed is a make or break point for any work you do on the class.

As I said it is dead simple, a skill would set the DC just as perform sets the DC for Coup De Grace. It could be a existing skill like sneak or hide, or it could be a new skill introduced as spell craft was. Using a new skill would have the upside of avoiding a balance issue that any pre-existing sneak or whatever existing skill Turbine chose may have had. The down side being the creation of a new skill. But then again perform skill items were widely available before Coup De Grace was introduced.

Other similarities; as Coup De Grace has the prerequisite of the target being helpless, Assassination would have the prerequisite of the the strike being a melee sneak attack made from a Assassin in sneak. Just as Coup it would only work against appropriate targets, no constructs, undead, elementals, etc....

And finally a cool down of between 12-24 seconds depending on the number of ranks bought in assassinate.

This is not my personal creation it is the work of many long-time and very switched on players, and really is the only practical and fair way to handle the manner. For 9 months Assassin players have been playing second fiddle to swashbuckler in this, but now we can get things back to where they should be. It's not like there are a lot of singing assassin's is there? of course death metal bands...hmmm....


Thanks for all the work, we all really look forward to your feedback about this, before it goes live on Lammannia.

[Bobby88888]

Sev,

All the Assassin back and forth has been great but it's time to get down to brass tack before this is up and running on Lammannia. The most important issue for a assassin is assassinating. Lucky for all of us players and for you Devs the answer has made itself quite clear the past months:

Assassinate's DC should be a skill based number similar to the Bard's Coup De grace. since Turbine went that way with the swashbuckler it's the only rational move that can be taken with the assassin class, whose primary role is to assassinate. I have spoken with many of my guild and raiding friends and really I would have to say getting Assassination fixed is a make or break point for any work you do on the class.

As I said it is dead simple, a skill would set the DC just as perform sets the DC for Coup De Grace. It could be a existing skill like sneak or hide, or it could be a new skill introduced as spell craft was. Using a new skill would have the upside of avoiding a balance issue that any pre-existing sneak or whatever existing skill Turbine chose may have had. The down side being the creation of a new skill. But then again perform skill items were widely available before Coup De Grace was introduced.

Other similarities; as Coup De Grace has the prerequisite of the target being helpless, Assassination would have the prerequisite of the the strike being a melee sneak attack made from a Assassin in sneak. Just as Coup it would only work against appropriate targets, no constructs, undead, elementals, etc....

And finally a cool down of between 12-24 seconds depending on the number of ranks bought in assassinate.

This is not my personal creation it is the work of many long-time and very switched on players, and really is the only practical and fair way to handle the manner. For 9 months Assassin players have been playing second fiddle to swashbuckler in this, but now we can get things back to where they should be. It's not like there are a lot of singing assassin's is there? of course death metal bands...hmmm....


Thanks for all the work, we all really look forward to your feedback about this, before it goes live on Lammannia.

Oh dear I sincerely hope not. Luckily Sev already said they wouldn't be using skills for it after the utter failure that Coup De Grace was. If they did that it would probably be enough to make me leave my favourite class. Really Coup De Grace should be removed and a more appropriate ability put in place there but this is not the place for such a discussion. Coup should not be considered a benchmark for anything but ways to create game imbalance, OPness and ruining the game.

I do however agree that Assassination needs fixing, just not the DC that is one area where it is perfectly balanced right now. The only improvements needed to it is to find whatever code is causing the Assassination aggro on hit to vary between updates, making it so db/dw and orange named mobs can all be assassinated through and call it a day on assassinate.

[levy1964]

i post this post in Acrobat thread but think this same should be here. look guys

hmm, but i still think there is somethink wrong with pure rogue atm, let's look on pure ranger ench tree, there is 1 tree "arcane archer" focus on bow, Tempest tree focus on TWF and Stalker support tree on both fight style depend on what we choice TWF on Ranged or...meyby both, this greate synergy betwean trees.

now look on Rogue, we have assasins tree focus on higher SA and assasinate ability, and acrobat tree focused on better DPS, but if u choice to be rogue Acrobatic (with staff), assasins tree still have synergy with staff acrobat, moar SA damage, killer ?, execute ?.

but if want to be assasins TWF, acrobat tree suck completly, no any synergy for TWF, staff only, there is what? no marcy ? it is so bad and uslesss tree completly on ppl who aspect on TWF/Assasins.

=
if u are Acrobat u have synergy with Assasins tree and Mechanic it's support tree
if u are Assasins don't have synergy with Acrobat tree and Mechanic support tree

so that's why i think this is.....stupid and bad planner tree completly for pure assasins who don't want Assasinate, who want be mayby STR build mayby ascpect totaly on DPS, and rogue DPS atm have one choice.....staff

[Ayseifn]

I don't take any enhancements from assassin on acrobats, there's better places to spend the AP.

SA doesn't proc on multiple mobs so not of great benefit, Killer doesn't stack with Quick Strike and is 5% DS worse and everything else that'd be tempting is really expensive. With the changes I might take some assassin enhancements, probably still better off spending those APs somewhere else though.

[levy1964]

I don't take any enhancements from assassin on acrobats, there's better places to spend the AP.

SA doesn't proc on multiple mobs so not of great benefit, Killer doesn't stack with Quick Strike and is 5% DS worse and everything else that'd be tempting is really expensive. With the changes I might take some assassin enhancements, probably still better off spending those APs somewhere else though.

killer it's 20% DS, and yes u have right there is better place to spend point, that's why eee.... ZEUS build are better choice

[levy1964]

i think this is how i see good planner tree on rogUe

Assasins tree aspect:
-Stealth
-boost Sneak attack DMG
-debuff
Acrobat tree aspect:
-AoE staff DPS
-support TWF (old) Assasins style
-support Defence (dodge) on both style
Mechanic tree Aspect
-deadly sub-class for creating ambush (cround controll)
-massive AoE elemental dmg from mine (remote controll detonate)

this is how should look synergy, let my show u:

i want to by Acrobat aspect on AoE staff DPS with Debuffs and have options to create ambush (CC)
i want to by Assasins aspect on stealth, deadly SA dmg (boost from Acrobat my TWF style) and have option to massive AoE elemental DMG
i want to by Assasins aspect on Assasinate with support defence from acrobat and have deadly ambush options + massive AoE ele dmg
i want to be Acrobat aspect on TWF and Tactic with High SA dmg from Assasins tree and have option to create ambush


this is option to stay on pure and have many aspect on setup us playstyle, here is so many choice, and with good balanced all 3 tree this no mean this be OP....Dev's i want have choice this is why i play in DDO, for customization my personal playstyle

[amsharkwei]

T4 Killer not work well,it's useless in most of the time

How about rework this enhancement

Killer:Every 15/10/5 second,you gain a killer buff,your next attack have 100% double strike chance,a successful hit consume this buff.

[amsharkwei]

Core abilities:
Lethality: Any sneak attack that also counts as a vorpal strike (attack roll of 20 followed by critical confirmation) that you make will kill most living targets.
-5% chance deal 100 damage is a joke in Epic level
-rework it:Any attack that roll of 20 followed by critical confirmation treat as an assassinate attack,Kills a living target instantly if the target fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier). Even on a successful save, the target takes 500 additional damage.

T1:
Toxin Affinity: : +1/+2/+3 Fortitude saves vs. Poisons and to the save DC of your Poison attacks.
-I don't know what's this enhancement use for,increase the poison strike's DC? You really kidding me.
-rework it:+1/+2/+3 Fortitude saves vs. Poisons and dodge bouns.

T2:
Bleed Them Out: Melee Attack: Deal +1/+2/+3[W] damage and on successful damage causes your opponent to bleed. The bleed deals 1d6 damage every 2 seconds for 14 seconds.effect can stack up to 5 times. (Cooldown: 6 seconds)
-Useless even the bleed damage scales with 200% Melee Power.
-rework it:Passive ability:every critical hit from your attack causes your opponent to bleed. The bleed deals 1d6 damage every 2 seconds for 14 seconds.effect can stack up to 5 times. scales with 200% Melee Power.

T3:
Shadow Dagger: Throw a dagger made of solidified shadows at your enemy. Deals 4d8/6d8/8d8 unholy damage and blinds the target (Fort DC 10/14/18 + half Rogue level + Int modifier Negates blindness). (Cooldown: 30/20/10 seconds)
-Interesting ability,but useless because of the low DC.
-rework it:Deals bane damage,and blinds the target 10/14/18 second without save.

T4:
Killer: When you kill a target, gain +5% morale bonus to Doublestrike and Doubleshot for 15 seconds. Weak enemies will not always produce this effect. The killer buff can stack up to 2/3/4 times.
-useless in most of the time.
-rework it:Every 15/10/5 second,you gain a killer buff,your next attack have 100% double strike chance,a successful hit consume this buff.

shark~

[amsharkwei]

Toxin Affinity;Bleed Them Out;Shadow Dagger

I think no one will set Action Points in these 3 enhancement