Rogue - Assassin Changes

[Bobby88888]

There has been a slightly worrying silence on the Dev end after dropping the dex to assassinate idea in our midst a few days back. I hope this is while they try to come up with some other idea to put in to boost assassins rather than that.

In that vein of thought I would like to put forward a list of my suggestions of changes/fixes that I think assassin could do with to help with ideas and possible areas where improvements could be made.

Cores:
1 and 3: I really don't know what to put here but they are poor enhancements and could do with some revisions. Perhaps something based on AP spent in tree or adding some SA dice or other assassin related things to them and or all cores.

12: Nimbleness: I'm not convinced yet but I have an idea here in regards to complete invincibility. I will be taking a close look at this one on Lam but I think it should go back to on SA only, not just on hit, it will proc way too much otherwise.

18: Lethality is not any good any more. It used to be one of the most prized abilities, and it could be again whilst giving assassins a well needed DPS boost by simply changing it to give critical multiplier on critical hits with SA damage (or on vorpals only but I think all crits wouldn't be too powerful though do some number crunching on if you think it should be a set multiplier or use your weapons.)

20: Deadly Shadow: I am still really not feeling like this is a capstone that really gives some umph. I know I have suggested in the past add additional scaling of SA damage from MP here but perhaps it was too much. I would rather see a more unique ability added here or something that scales on investment (but not too high) or both.

Tier 1:
Poison Strikes: So these abilities are in and of themselves terrible but they will be taken at least once for Assassin's Mark. On that thought perhaps rework them into that theme rather than having conflicting themes within the ability. At the very least drop the cost to 1 AP, they never were worth 2. Same for the higher Tier versions.

Toxin Affinity: This does nothing really worth mentioning. rework or scrap or replace?

Sneak Attack Training: Personal bone to pick - I don't think the +1 SA die and +1 to hit is worth 2 AP, Halfing costs 1 for SA die and 1 for the hit + skill (admitably a prereq) but I would be fine with dropping the to hit bonus or adding a skill or whatever to them. Same for higher Tier versions.

Stealthy: I'm unsure if you are adding Sneak Speed to this or replacing with Sneak Speed but as long as it goes in is good but could do with an increase in the speed department for sneaking. Both together sounds cool but.

Tier 2:
Bleed Them Out: Still not something overly desirable, no idea how to fix it.

Tier 3:
Shadow Dagger: Not any good really, a DC boost wouldn't be amiss and maybe some other boon.

Tier 4:
Weakening Strikes: The increased reduction based on Rogue level should go through if it hasn't already (not in OP)

Killer: Gain a stack when target under effect of Assassin's Mark dies (may need to shorten duration with this one) or make stacks fade 1 at a time.

Execute: At the very least please let us have an option to have a marker on mob hp bars at 30% so we can tell when we can use (can make toggle on or off in options) but I think a little more damage, or maybe make damage crittable or slightly higher for crits.

Tier 5:
Deadly Strikes: Bonus feels a little small, maybe make melee power or change to SA damage and make a smidgen higher?

Light Armour Mastery: (If you drop base PRR from armours down assassins will loose 5 PRR and get 6 back here for +1 PRR, more of a putting abck where we found it than boosting a little enhancement) Boost the PRR a bit more, 5/10/15 is still only +10 PRR from currently given aforementioned.

Measure the Foe: 1st stack fades after 10 seconds with the rest lasting 3 seconds each, or similar. You burst out of stealth and have the element of surprise which lasts for a bit then wears off as enemies recover.

Knife Spec: Ok there isn't anything really wrong with this. But is it just me or does this feel like the perfect place to add something really unique and flavourful in to go with this, just don't ask me what :)

Alternative methods of buffing include letting Assassinate bypass DW and DB and letting Orange named mobs be assassinate.

Now I hardly expect most of those changes to be made, Infact I hardly expect any, but I think they provide some good ideas for some buffs to assassins that they should get that are flavourful and fun. If I had to choose a single change to pass from them but it would be the Lethality change or the alternatives for opening up assassination options.
Right now I feel like its an unfinished pass but it will be heading to Lam soon and if it goes through unfinished it will forever remain that way.
Thanks and I really hope to hear more about how and where things are going for the assassin.

[slarden]

T4:
Killer: When you kill a target, gain +5% morale bonus to Doublestrike and Doubleshot for 15 seconds. Weak enemies will not always produce this effect. The killer buff can stack up to 2/3/4 times.
-useless in most of the time.
-rework it:Every 15/10/5 second,you gain a killer buff,your next attack have 100% double strike chance,a successful hit consume this buff.


I take this and I find it to be very good, but it's much like the old Blitz where it is driven by killing enemies so the stronger a character the better it works.

You will get 5-15% immediately from assassinate for 15 seconds and that is usually when it is needed the most since the first thing I try to do in a combat situation is assassinate 1 or more targets. You have to get a kill every 15 seconds to keep it up though which works for me sometimes and not other times (skeletons are problematic for me for example). Overall it's a boost to dps so I take it.

If a better alternative came up I'd drop it.

[dualscissors]

So you want to nerf shadow dodge even harder than it already was just so assassins don't all swap over to dex based? Acrobats could still use some more dex to make it viable option.
.

The Shadow Dodge nerf was due to a stacking error that clearly was not WAI (1+2+3=+6 Dex instead of 1/2/3 Dex). Perhaps the reason it seems like a nerf to some for the acro tree to grant a 'mere' +3 stat boost is that Dex based rogues were struggling. But seriously, if the game was inundated with lots of +1/2/3 stat-ups in various trees at tier-3, you'd see a lot of DC builds capitalizing on them left and right.

But ultimately, no I don't want to nerf acrobats. They've needed some major love. I was just considering the problem of an easily reachable +3 Dex increase with regard to the conversation about Dex > Int based DCs.




Ha! Sneak Faster at Tier 1 was too much of a AP burden for Assassins that it was moved to the Assassin tree, but Tier 3 Shadow Dodge is considered low hanging fruit?!

I didn't complain about sneak speed being in acro, though I think it probably makes sense for an ~essential ability for a sneak-assassin to be in the assassin tree. By ~essential, I mean that it would be utterly miserable to play an assassinator at regular sneak speed.

As for a mental comparison of Sneak Faster at tier-1 and Dex +3 increase at tier-3, certainly it's a lot easier to dip into another tree at tier-1, and tier-3 takes some effort in AP expenditures. I was making the observation that a 1.5 DC increase from a +3 stat boost is potent grab when you consider that most tier-3 stat increases happen at 1 point increments. This in itself isn't as big of a deal unless you are considering whether one DC stat (Dex) would outclass the traditional stat (Int).

[depositbox]

Sorry, I am sad I've never seen any rogue better than me in my server yet since 2008.
Lol. That just means no one that is good plays a rogue.

[draven1]

Lol. That just means no one that is good plays a rogue.

Sadly, but it seems it's true. Many power gamers don't like playing a rogue now.
I was usually only rogue in EE raids.

By the way, I think these posts are not proper for this thread, let's change our topics to make better enhancement.
I can admit there are many people who doesn't like dex assassin, but, you can admit there are many people who like it, too.

We have something in common, we love assassins :D

[jaggyjag]

Oh dear I sincerely hope not. Luckily Sev already said they wouldn't be using skills for it after the utter failure that Coup De Grace was. If they did that it would probably be enough to make me leave my favourite class. Really Coup De Grace should be removed and a more appropriate ability put in place there but this is not the place for such a discussion. Coup should not be considered a benchmark for anything but ways to create game imbalance, OPness and ruining the game.

I do however agree that Assassination needs fixing, just not the DC that is one area where it is perfectly balanced right now. The only improvements needed to it is to find whatever code is causing the Assassination aggro on hit to vary between updates, making it so db/dw and orange named mobs can all be assassinated through and call it a day on assassinate.

Thanks for your input, I respectfully disagree.

Clearly your real objection is with "OPness" as you call it, and sadly that train has left the station, Sev has made it clear in his posts that Coup is not going anywhere.

That being the case, it is untenable for the Assassin class to remain as it is with it's assassinate. I know this, I have been playing since 1979 and DDO since day one, I have always retained at least three rogue characters in my stable of DDO so I like to think I know my way around the issue. My gulid, raid, play, pug friends all agree that this is the cleanest, simplest and only fair way to address the problem. To do otherwise is to reduce the Assassin to a enforcer, or footpad.

Make your voice heard people, let Sev hear that the Assassin needs to be on equal footing with the swasbuckler if not ahead. A skill based Assassination DC is the only way to retain the viability of the assassin tree.

[CThruTheEgo]

EDIT: See post #784 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/456558-Rogue-Assassin-Changes?p=5563438&viewfull=1#post5563438) for my thoughts on dex vs int after further reflection, discussion, and comparison.

OK, I redid Hassan's Assassin as a dex based build. All the details are posted below my comments on the changes. Let me know if you see any inconsistencies or errors.

Overall the dex version has far more options than an int build because of greater flexibility with enhancements. On a dex build, the mandatory enhancements seem to be 41 AP in assassin for the capstone and 16 in acrobat for shadow dodge, leaving 23 to spend as you want. Investing more in assassin will get you more dps. Investing in acrobat focuses on defenses (defensive roll, max dodge from cores). Investing in harper gets you more dps from melee power. Investing in halfling gets you sneak attack dice and self healing if using the dragonmarks. Investing in shadar-kai gets you whatever that has to offer. Investing in mechanic gets you better scroll healing and improved traps. I chose to go more defensively just to see what that would offer. An int build does not have this degree of flexibility because they need to go heavily into both assassin and harper.

There are a lot of options for dex builds and some good synergy among them, but AP is the limiting factor. You just can't get everything and will have to make sacrifices. There is a lot of good stuff in assassin and I wanted to spend more, but had to trim it back to make room for stuff in other trees. A lot of good options that require difficult choices is usually a good thing. Overall, I don't see too much power increase in dex builds, just more variety. If this change goes through, I know I'll be coming up with my ideal version of each so I can decide which one I like the most.

It's also far more difficult to find an optimal gear set for dex based. I had to drop the GS HP item, which included permablur.

Hassan's Assassin - post revamp dex based version
TL: DR version:
Dex version has:
-1 DC
-8 damage from KtA
-1 damage from 66 dex vs 68 int
-5 melee power
-7 seeker
-35 hp
defensive roll below 50% hp with a 79% chance to trigger
knockdown and slippery surface immunity
an average of 40 less per tick of cocoon (average 100 hp per tick)
+3 max dex bonus (max dex bonus will be the limiting factor that determines dodge for each version)
changes to skills which are negligible and obvious with a shift in focus from int to dex

Human rogue 20
True neutral
36 point build

Build Features:
Excellent offense:
~Assassinate with a sustainable 73 DC
~dex to damage with a 66 dex
~Near max sneak attack damage: 29d6+16, with another 14 for a 3 minute burst
~Know the angles provides an extra 7 damage per hit
~75% fort bypass, 100% with assassin's trick
Excellent defense:
~High hp: 835 base, 911 self buffed
~Improved evasion with a 79 reflex save, 93 against traps
~Defensive roll with a 79% chance to trigger when below 50% hp
~25% incorp from shadow form
~27-38% dodge, depending on stacks of measure the foe and nimbleness
~35.90% physical damage mitigation from 56 PRR
~39.02% magic damage mitigation from 64 MRR
~Knockdown and slippery surface immunity
~Tumble through enemies
Decent self healing:
~Heal scrolls with 180 heal amp (hits for 308)
~Rejuvenation cocoon with 247 positive spell power and 65 heal amp (hits for an average of 100 per tick)
Excellent utility:
~Full trap capabilities (no fail on any trap or lock in the game)

Stats:
str: 8
dex: 18
con: 16
int: 15
wis: 10
cha: 8

All level up points in dex.
+5 tome in con required by level 21

Feats:
1 toughness
1h twf
3 precision
6 past life rogue: sneak of shadows
9 imp twf
12 imp crit pierce
15 gr twf
18 ???
21 epic toughness
24 imp sneak attack
26 perfect two weapon fighting
27 overwhelming crit
28 elusive target

Rogue Feats:
10 improved evasion
13 opportunist
16 defensive roll
19 slippery mind

Skills: max spot, search, disable, open lock, UMD, bluff, hide, move silently, balance, jump, listen, 2 heal, 1 tumble

Enhancements:
Assassin: 46 total
Core: 6 total
Knife in the darkness 1 (kukri proficiency, dex to hit with dagger/kukri)
Dagger in the back 1 (dex to damage with dagger/kukri)
Assassin's trick 1 (reduce target fort by 25% and sneak attack immunity for 12 seconds)
Nimbleness 1 (on attack gain 1% dodge for 6 seconds, stacks 10 times)
Lethality 1 (kill on vorpal)
Deadly shadow 1 (2 dex, 2 int, 10 melee power, 4d6 sneak attack, 4 reflex)
Tier 1: 8 total
Poison strikes 2 (apply assassin's mark for 10 seconds, some other stuff, cooldown 6 seconds)
Shiv 1 (1[W] attack with a bluff check, passive threat reduction of 5%, cooldown 12 seconds)
Sneak attack training 2 (1 to hit and 1d6 sneak attack)
Stealthy 3 (+50% movement speed while sneaking)
Tier 2: 5 total
Sneak attack training 2 (1 to hit and 1d6 sneak attack)
Melee power boost 3 (30 melee power)
Tier 3: 7 total
Critical mastery 3 (3 seeker)
Sneak attack training 2 (1 to hit and 1d6 sneak attack)
Dex 2
Tier 4: 9 total
Weakening strikes 2? (attacks against enemies with assassin's mark reduces their melee/ranged power by 10 for 10 seconds)
Killer 3 (on kill gain 5% doublestrike for 15 seconds, stacks 4 times)
Sneak attack training 2 (1 to hit and 1d6 sneak attack)
Dex 2
Tier 5: 11 total
Assassinate 1 (instakill DC 73, 10d6 additional sneak attack on failed attempt)
Measure the foe 3 (4 melee power, 2 dodge, 2 max dodge, 1 to hit, 1 assassinate DC every 1 second while stealthed, stacks 5 times, lasts 10 seconds after leaving stealth)
Knife specialization 2 (1 critical threat range and multiplier with daggers, 1 threat multiplier with kukris)
Deadly strikes 2? (5 damage against enemies with assassin's mark)
Light armor mastery 3 (3 max dodge, 6 MDB, 6 PRR)

Acrobat: 24 total
Core: 4 total
Staff control 1
Stick fighting 1
Tumbler 1 (2 max dodge, can pass through enemies when you tumble)
Kip up 1 (2 max dodge, immunity to knockdown and slippery surfaces)
Tier 1: 5 total
Sly flourish 3 (15% threat reduction)
Fast movement 2 (1% movement speed per rogue level)
Tier 2: 4 total
Subtlety 3 (-40% threat)
Haste boost 1 (10% attack speed)
Tier 3: 8 total
Shadow dodge 6 (3 dodge, 3 MDB, 3 dex)
Dex 2
Tier 4: 3
Improved defensive roll 3 (defensive roll now triggers below 50% health)

Harper: 8 total
Core: 1 total
Agent of good 1 (1 to hit vs evil, 1 universal spell power)
Tier 1: 4 total
Harper enchantment 2 (1 weapon enhancement, 20 spell points)
Traveler's toughness 2 (10 hp)
Tier 2: 3 total
Know the angles 3 (int based divine might)

Human: 1 total
Core: 1 total
Damage boost 1 (20% action boost)

Epic Destiny:
Shadowdancer
Tier 1:
stealthy 3 (6 hide, move silently, and assassinate DC)
dex 2
Tier 2:
lithe 3 (6 reflex, AC, light armor max dex bonus)
dex 2
Tier 3:
shrouding strike 3 (3[W], mark target, gain shadow charge if target dies within 10 seconds)
dex 2
Tier 4:
improved invisibility 2 (invis 20 seconds, displacement for 60 seconds after)
dex 2
Tier 5:
untouchable 1 (1% dodge for each shadow charge)
dex 2
Tier 6:
shadow form 2 (25% incorp, feather fall, +5 hide and move silently, str damage on hit, double damage from light attacks)

Twists:
1) balanced attacks (primal avatar tier 3, knockdown enemies on vorpal for 2 seconds, counts as helpless)
2) rejuvenation cocoon (primal avatar tier 1)
3) impregnable mind (magister tier 1, 6 will save, no auto fail will saves on 1)
Alternatives: hail of blows (GMoF tier 2), sense weakness (fury tier 4), extra action boost (legendary dreadnaught tier 1), primal scream (fury tier 1), energy sheath electric (draconic tier 1)

Gear Set:
Weapons: Thunder-Forged Dagger (1st degree burns/dragon's edge/mortal fear/orange slotted ruby of endless night/colorless slotted cha8)
offhand: Agony (entropic/phlebotomizing/disintegration/improved deception/red slotted positive spell power138)
ranged: Thunder-Forged Throwing Dagger (touch of flames/dragon's edge/mortal fear/orange slotted ruby of endless night/colorless slotted)
Armor: Shadowscale light armor (shadow phase x3/deathblock/ghostly/fort130/2d6 sneak attack/profane reflex1/blue slotted max dex2/green slotted golem's heart)
Goggles: Epic Mentau's Goggles (seeker10/exc seeker2/ghostly/UMD5/dex11/blue OR yellow slotted int8/green slotted int2)
Helm: Mythic Muffled Veneer (assassinate DC4/hide20/move silently20/spot20/insight reflex2/doublestrike9/blue OR yellow slotted Globe of True Imperial Blood/green slotted heal15)
Neck: Necklace of Mystic Eidolons (ghostly/deathblock/dex4/con4/eidolon summons/augment summoning/green slotted HP40/alchemical saves1)
Trinket: Epic Litany of the Dead (turn the page/profane abilities2/attack4/damage4/light of dawn/blue OR yellow slotted wiz10/green slotted fear immunity)
Cloak: Mysterious Cloak (heal amp45/MRR25/green slotted good luck2/yellow slotted protection8)
Belt: Epic Belt of Thoughtful Remembrance (deathblock7/con11/concentration20/resistance11/dodge11/greater regen/blue OR yellow slotted proof against poison10/green slotted proof against disease10)
Ring swap: Seal of House Avithoul (wis2/exc sneak3/sneak attack5/imp deception)
Gloves: Sanctified Gages (UMD5/2d6 light damage/deadly11/greater dispelling guard/blue OR yellow slotted vitality/green slotted draconic soul gem)
Boots: Epic Boots of the Innocent (resistance11/speed15/GH/vertigo12/stunning12/shatter12/yellow slotted water breathing/green slotted feather falling)
Ring: Guardian's Ring (sheltering25/str8/yellow slotted blindness immunity)
Bracers: Bracers of the Sun Soul (wis7/con2/insight AC4/insight saves4)
Quiver: Epic Quiver of Alacrity (concentration -50/ranged speed15/ranged and spell threat -15/insightful sneak4/doublestrike8)

Swap in search, disable, and open lock gear as needed and a triple positive GS weapon in the offhand with healing amp in at least tiers 1 and 2 (heal amp 60 is already on the Shroud of Ardent) for scroll healing.

Final Stats:
str25: 8base, 4tome, 8item, 1exc, 2profane, 2ship
dex66: 18base, 6tome, 7levels, 2capstone, 2assassin, 4acrobat, 11item, 4insight, 1exc, 2profane, 2yugo, 2ship, 5epic destiny
con40: 16base, 6tome, 11item, 2insight, 1exc, 2profane, 2ship
int38: 15base, 6tome, 2capstone, 8item, 2insight, 1exc, 2profane, 2ship
wis28: 10base, 4tome, 7item, 2insight, 1exc, 2profane, 2ship
cha28: 8base, 5tome, 8item, 2insight, 1exc, 2profane, 2ship

HP:
120 base
80 epic levels
25 heroic durability
20 improved heroic durability
10 draconic vitality
30 toughness feat
50 epic toughness
420 con40
40 false life slotted
20 vitality
20 hag's apothecary ship buff
835 TOTAL
28 rage
48 yugo
911 self buffed

Fort/Reflex/Will Saves:
6/12/6 base
4/4/4 epic
11/11/11 item
4/4/4 insight
2/2/2 good luck
1/1/1 alchemical
4/4/4 greater heroism
0/1/0 profane
0/6/0 lithe
0/4/0 capstone
0/0/6 impregnable mind
3/0/0 game hunter ship buff
0/2/0 chronoscope ship buff
0/0/2 grandmaster's dojo ship buff
15/0/0 con40
0/28/0 dex66
0/0/9 wis28
50/79/49 TOTAL
0/6/0 uncanny dodge
50/85/49 with uncanny dodge
0/4/0 vs traps (past life rogue x2)
0/6/0 trap sense
50/95/49 vs traps

Assassinate DC:
10 base
20 rogue levels
6 stealthy (shadowdancer tier 1)
4 Mythic Muffled Veneer
28 int66
5 measure the foe
73 TOTAL

Dodge:
6 uncanny dodge
11 item
7 shadow charges
3 shadow dodge
27% TOTAL
0-10 measure the foe
0-10 nimbleness
27-47% TOTAL

Max Dex Bonus:
19 base
2 augment
6 lithe
6 light armor mastery
3 shadow dodge
2 ship buff
38 TOTAL

Max Dodge:
25 base
3 light armor mastery
4 acrobat cores
2 ship buff
34 TOTAL
0-10 measure the foe
34-44 TOTAL

PRR:
15 light armor
11 light armor with BAB of 19
24 Guardian's Ring
6 light armor mastery
56 TOTAL (35.90% damage reduction)

MRR:
15 light armor
24 Guardian's Ring
25 Mysterious Cloak
64 TOTAL (39.02% magic damage reduction)

Heal Amp:
45 Mysterious Cloak
20 ship buff
65 TOTAL
20 heal amp GS dagger
40 heal amp GS dagger
60 heal amp GS dagger
185 with GS heal amp dagger swapped in

Sneak Attack:
10d6 rogue 20
4d6 assassin sneak attack training
4d6 deadly shadow capstone
6d6 shadowdancer level 6
3d6 improved sneak attack epic feat
2d6 profane (Shadowscale light armor)
6 exceptional sneak attack (Epic Quiver of Alacrity)
8 sneak attack (Avithoul ring)
2 past life rogue x2
29d6+16 TOTAL or 117.5 average sneak attack damage
14 past life sneak of shadows
29d6+30 TOTAL or 131.5 average for a 3 minute burst
This is only short from max sneak attack by 3d6 from halfling, +3 from exceptional sneak attack 6, +1 from a third rogue past life.

Fortification Bypass:
25 precision
10 opportunist
35 Thunder Forged Dagger with dragon's edge
5 trapsmith's workshop ship buff
75% Base
25 assassin's trick (assassin core 3, DC59 will)
100% TOTAL

Spot:
23 base
8 epic
3 tome
9 wis28
20 item
2 good luck
1 elite spider cult mask
3 danger room ship buff
4 GH
73 TOTAL

Search:
23 base
8 epic
3 tome
15 int38
20 item
6 exc int skills belt
2 good luck
1 elite spider cult mask
3 danger room ship buff
4 GH
85 TOTAL

Disable Device:
23 base
8 epic
3 tome
15 int38
20 item
6 exc int skills belt
2 good luck
1 elite spider cult mask
3 danger room ship buff
4 GH
5 enhancement (Ventilated Armbands swap)
7 tools
97 TOTAL

Open Lock:
23 base
8 epic
3 tome
28 dex66
20 item
6 GS Smoke2 exc dex skills
2 good luck
1 elite spider cult mask
3 danger room ship buff
4 GH
7 tools
105 TOTAL

UMD:
23 base
8 epic
3 tome
9 cha28
5 item
2 good luck
1 elite spider cult mask
3 forbidden library ship buff
51 unbuffed with no swaps
4 GH
54 buffed
3 persuasion item swap
6 exc cha skills item swap
63 buffed with swaps

Bluff:
23 base
8 epic
3 tome
9 cha28
5 improved deception
15 slotted
2 good luck
1 elite spider cult mask
3 throne room ship buff
4 GH
70 TOTAL

Hide:
23 base
8 epic
3 tome
28 dex66
6 stealthy (shadowdancer tier 1)
20 necklace
6 GS Smoke2 exc dex skills
2 good luck
1 elite spider cult mask
3 danger room ship buff
4 GH
5 shadow form
109 TOTAL

Move Silently:
23 base
8 epic
3 tome
28 dex66
6 stealthy (shadowdancer tier 1)
20 necklace
6 GS Smoke2 exc dex skills
2 good luck
1 elite spider cult mask
2 Otto's irresistable dance hall ship buff
4 GH
5 shadow form
108 TOTAL

Positive Spell Power:
8 epic
3 tome
9 wis28
24 implement
138 red augment
15 slotted
2 good luck
1 elite spider cult mask
3 forbidden library ship buff
15 crusader's chapel
4 GH
25 superior ardor pot
247 TOTAL

[slarden]

Sadly, but it seems it's true. Many power gamers don't like playing a rogue now.
I was usually only rogue in EE raids.

By the way, I think these posts are not proper for this thread, let's change our topics to make better enhancement.
I can admit there are many people who doesn't like dex assassin, but, you can admit there are many people who like it, too.

We have something in common, we love assassins :D

I think you are misunderstanding. I clearly listed the pros/cons of dex vs. int earlier and gave you an opportunity to mention anything I missed. The issue is if they simply make assassinate dex or int, it makes dex much better for assassins. It isn't a matter of liking or disliking dex assassins it's an issue of balance.

If they want to buff dex builds they can buff the other dex trees instead of the single int tree. If they want to buff assassin they can buff assassin in general without proxy-buffing it by allowing dex.

If they allow dex they have to address the issue that int builds will be on weaker footing. A prior posts lists the pros/cons of each build and dex wins.

If they make this change (probably gonna happen) I'll switch to a dex build. I just think they are making a mistake by adding a multi-selector without balancing int and dex out as part of that change.

[brzytki]

Cool, I like this one too. Only I think this part is not really accurate.

Hassan's Assassin - post revamp dex based version
TL: DR version:
Dex version has:
-1 DC
-8 damage from KtA
-1 damage from 66 dex vs 68 int
-5 melee power
-7 seeker
-45hp
defensive roll below 50% hp with a 79% chance to trigger
knockdown and slippery surface immunity
an average of 40 less per tick of cocoon (average 100 hp per tick)
+3 max dex bonus (max dex bonus will be the limiting factor that determines dodge for each version)
changes to skills which are negligible and obvious with a shift in focus from int to dex
Because in this part you compare DEX build with new enhancements with your INT one with old enhancements. I think it would be more accurate if you'd added the new enhancements breakdown for your INT build aswell, as after the revamp you'll have to make some sacrifices on it too.

[CThruTheEgo]

Holy s**t guys, I've just finished my DEX build vs CThru's INT build and I have to say I didn't expect to gain so much power. True, compared to his build + completionist I'm losing 3 DC, but on every other build (read: no Yugo INT pot, no INT twist) I'd be only 1 DC behind while rocking sick DPS in LD. If you guys want I can post my build but it's gonna be 3 pictures of 3 sheets of A4 paper (since I still have only my smartphone and typing out a build is such a PITA).


Ok guys, let's take a look at the monster I've created and tell me honestly if you'd still pay INT build if you'd have a choice. Link http://imgur.com/a/WVAKj
The picture at the bottom is first, then middle one and top one.

I took a look at the notes. It's a bit hard to read/follow in a few places. I want to be clear on the DC you came up with so correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like the dex based assassinate DC is 67 without completionist or measure the foe. Hassan currently is 69 without completionist and measure the foe. But you said it was 3 behind mine currently. I'm just trying to clarify.

Either way, most of the power that build gains is from running in dreadnaught. I could drop 4 DCs right now on Hassan by running in dreadnaught and twisting stealthy instead of int, freeing up 2 APs because I could drop another int from enhancements to even it out (those would probably go into more melee power from harper), and still have an assassinate DC that's 100% effective in everything but EE Stormhorns. It would be only 1-2 DCs behind the dex version you posted but would have higher dps due to higher benefit from know the angles and harper melee power. So I just don't see how dex is that revolutionary when I could get a similar build now.

[depositbox]

Sadly, but it seems it's true. Many power gamers don't like playing a rogue now.
I was usually only rogue in EE raids.

By the way, I think these posts are not proper for this thread, let's change our topics to make better enhancement.
I can admit there are many people who doesn't like dex assassin, but, you can admit there are many people who like it, too.

We have something in common, we love assassins :D

I just want assassins to be good. Rogues too. Sev knows bards shouldnt have higher assassinate DCs. No lore reasoning behind that could ever justify it. Same for monks and QP. Coup De Grace has PROVED how utterly menial and useless insta kills are in end game today. Put the DC at 120 and it doesnt make a difference in the slightest. I played swashbucklers exclusively for months when the pirate update dropped. Never have I even wasted time using coup de grace when Im zerging. It just isnt even an afterthought in today's meta.

Put it another way. Other classes like rogue, monk and even pale masters have to dedicate an entire stat to be their main stat just to be able to reach a good DC. How does this compare to bards? Put simpy It doesn't. I sacrifice nothing on swashbucklers to attain a dc of 75. Before the d20 adds 1-20 more..... On a strength or con based build. I dont waste skill points either. Bards have a ton. Perform also boosts your sonic power for more dps. You give up nothing.

Utter BS with turbine's view towards insta kills. it's hypocritical, backwards, and an outdated relic feared by devs from when the game was hard. Newsflash this isn't 2009. MotU broke your game. Throw out your horrid misconceptions about how this game is played, devs. You dont play it at our level to understand fully what youre talking about when it comes to certain things.

[CThruTheEgo]

Cool, I like this one too. Only I think this part is not really accurate.
Because in this part you compare DEX build with new enhancements with your INT one with old enhancements. I think it would be more accurate if you'd added the new enhancements breakdown for your INT build aswell, as after the revamp you'll have to make some sacrifices on it too.

I took the new enhancements into account when I compared the two. But I'll write them up and post them just for the sake of transparency.

[redoubt]

T4 Killer not work well,it's useless in most of the time

How about rework this enhancement

Killer:Every 15/10/5 second,you gain a killer buff,your next attack have 100% double strike chance,a successful hit consume this buff.

What does not work about this enhancement?

[CThruTheEgo]

Make your voice heard people, let Sev hear that the Assassin needs to be on equal footing with the swasbuckler if not ahead.

Here's my voice: Thank you Sev for acknowledging that basing the DC of coup de grace off of a skill was too much and for not allowing that mistake to be repeated throughout the rest of the game.


A skill based Assassination DC is the only way to retain the viability of the assassin tree.

False.

[Full_Bleed]

Make your voice heard people, let Sev hear that the Assassin needs to be on equal footing with the swasbuckler if not ahead. A skill based Assassination DC is the only way to retain the viability of the assassin tree.
Not worth asking for something that will not happen.

Things we've heard time and time again in this thread:

"Assassinate DC is balanced fine now." --Usually from people with DC's and gear I know I'm never going to have.

"Coup de Grace isn't better than Assassinate." --Usually from people who are fearful that their Bards will be nerfed or Assassins will end up with better insta kills. Neither of which will be allowed to happen.

"A DEX to Assassinate build won't be better than an INT build." --Usually from people who want a more powerful assassin and are willing to change *everything* about their current builds to achieve it. It's not enough that assassins had to go to Harper to get a buff... now they'll have to LR and re-gear completely to move up the food chain.


At this point, I think it's pretty obvious that we should all be lobbying for minor tweaks to what's already on the table.

Like:

1) Killer and Measure the Foe decay instead of pop.
2) Buff to INT build in lieu of DEX builds becoming preferred.
3) More helpless damage so we can clean up targets that can't kill us.
4) Faster sneak.
5) Allow Oranges to be assassinated (or at least some kind of additional debuff/damage on red/oranges who would fail otherwise).
6) Better scaling poison/bleed damage for end game.
7) Defensive Stance: Into Thin Air. (A low proccing second dodge roll with a Vanish animation. Ok, so this isn't really on the table... but a little more defense and being as annoying as Shakra would be fun. :P )

[redoubt]

I took the new enhancements into account when I compared the two. But I'll write them up and post them just for the sake of transparency.

Thanks for working up the new build and sharing it with us.

What are your thoughts about going DEX and then using a different destiny?

[brzytki]

I took a look at the notes. It's a bit hard to read/follow in a few places. I want to be clear on the DC you came up with so correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like the dex based assassinate DC is 67 without completionist or measure the foe. Hassan currently is 69 without completionist and measure the foe. But you said it was 3 behind mine currently. I'm just trying to clarify.
No worries. I'm actually glad someone was interested enough to ask questions.
About the DC, I took your build and gave it Completionist instead of Rogue PL, and your build ended up having 70 DC pre Measure. My could have 2 less (-6 ED + 1 enhancement + 1 insightful) but I decided to drop my DEX from enhancements and twist (total -2 DEX). That enables me to still grab KtA and some other enhancements while freeing up a twist for Balanced Attacks for considerably more DPS. With the INT of 44 (don't need 11/4 items, just 9/2 is enough), I'd have 7 less damage from KtA which would be vastly compensated for by using LD.


Either way, most of the power that build gains is from running in dreadnaught. I could drop 4 DCs right now on Hassan by running in dreadnaught and twisting stealthy instead of int, freeing up 2 APs because I could drop another int from enhancements to even it out (those would probably go into more melee power from harper), and still have an assassinate DC that's 100% effective in everything but EE Stormhorns. It would be only 1-2 DCs behind the dex version you posted but would have higher dps due to higher benefit from know the angles and harper melee power. So I just don't see how dex is that revolutionary when I could get a similar build now.
Still on my phone so apologies for not answering you directly but please look a few posts back where I was answering draven1, about INT based rogue in LD. The comparison between my build and yours converted to LD is all there, if a bit brief.

It's post number 742

[CThruTheEgo]

3) Saving 3 AP on your main stat by taking shadow dodge for 3 dex instead of taking 3x int for 6 AP.

According to the first post of the acrobat revamp thread, shadow dodge will cost 2 AP per rank. So you're still spending 6 AP for 3 stat points. The advantage to shadow dodge is that you have to spend 10 AP in 1 tree to unlock 4 stat points (including the normal dex enhancement).


4) Saving 4 AP because there is no real downside to dex yugo pots while 50% reduction in fort is a bit much for a rogue so int yugo pots aren't even used by me while dex pots would always be used

What do Yugo pots have to do with AP?


5) Save 2 AP from harper tree since there is no need to spend 10 pts in the tree to have access to strategic combat II

You're really reaching with this one. Given that there is a lot in harper worth taking, these points are not wasted so this is not a valid critique. Those 2 AP can get you 1 more stat point or 2 melee power.


6) 10 Increase to armor class

Again, really reaching. The only content where AC actually makes a difference is trivial to begin with and AC isn't really needed as a result.


9) Synergies with the thief acrobat tree allowing you to specialize in both since they are both dex-based
10) 3% extra dodge via shadow dodge

This I agree with. Improved defensive roll is likely not an option for an int based assassin because they would have to waste points in acrobat to unlock it, whereas 18 in acrobat is a no brainer for a dex build because you get 4 dex for those 18 AP. Between shadow dodge and improved defensive roll, there is a great deal of synergy in the acrobat tree for a dex based assassin, and I even question whether or not it is too much. But AP are still the limiting factor. Spending a lot in acrobat will limit you elsewhere, just like spending in harper on an int based assassin limits them, and they certainly have a great deal of synergy with harper. Harper will still be the tree for dps, whereas acrobat will be the tree for defense. There is a certain balance in that.


Advantages for an int build
1) 5 more damage from know the angles

I came up with a difference of 8 in my build, but I worked out all the details including gear, which will be one of the trickiest parts to optimize on a dex version.


4) 30% extra fortification since not penalized by shadow dodge.

This penalty is being removed with the revamp, so this is a non-issue for either.

[dualscissors]

OK, I redid Hassan's Assassin as a dex based build. All the details are posted below my comments on the changes. Let me know if you see any inconsistencies or errors.

Overall the dex version has far more options than an int build because of greater flexibility with enhancements. On a dex build, the mandatory enhancements seem to be 41 AP in assassin for the capstone and 16 in acrobat for shadow dodge, leaving 23 to spend as you want. Investing more in assassin will get you more dps. Investing in acrobat focuses on defenses (defensive roll, max dodge from cores). Investing in harper gets you more dps from melee power. Investing in halfling gets you sneak attack dice and self healing if using the dragonmarks. Investing in shadar-kai gets you whatever that has to offer. Investing in mechanic gets you better scroll healing and improved traps. I chose to go more defensively just to see what that would offer. An int build does not have this degree of flexibility because they need to go heavily into both assassin and harper.

There are a lot of options for dex builds and some good synergy among them, but AP is the limiting factor. You just can't get everything and will have to make sacrifices. There is a lot of good stuff in assassin and I wanted to spend more, but had to trim it back to make room for stuff in other trees. A lot of good options that require difficult choices is usually a good thing. Overall, I don't see too much power increase in dex builds, just more variety. If this change goes through, I know I'll be coming up with my ideal version of each so I can decide which one I like the most.

It's also far more difficult to find an optimal gear set for dex based. I had to drop the GS HP item, which included permablur.




Edit.

Thanks for the work. I would have said that the survivability/options by going Dex-assassin would outweight the modest damage perks with the Int-assassin.

But now that we're seeing Mechanic, maybe Int has some versatility there...

[depositbox]

Here's my voice: Thank you Sev for acknowledging that basing the DC of coup de grace off of a skill was too much and for not allowing that mistake to be repeated throughout the rest of the game.


lol false as false can be, but, ok..

[burningwind]

you should consider given hips(hidden in plain sight) feat to assassin through this tree. after all it is such a waste on ranger.

[slarden]

According to the first post of the acrobat revamp thread, shadow dodge will cost 2 AP per rank. So you're still spending 6 AP for 3 stat points. The advantage to shadow dodge is that you have to spend 10 AP in 1 tree to unlock 4 stat points (including the normal dex enhancement).

What do Yugo pots have to do with AP?

You're really reaching with this one. Given that there is a lot in harper worth taking, these points are not wasted so this is not a valid critique. Those 2 AP can get you 1 more stat point or 2 melee power.

Again, really reaching. The only content where AC actually makes a difference is trivial to begin with and AC isn't really needed as a result.

This I agree with. Improved defensive roll is likely not an option for an int based assassin because they would have to waste points in acrobat to unlock it, whereas 18 in acrobat is a no brainer for a dex build because you get 4 dex for those 18 AP. Between shadow dodge and improved defensive roll, there is a great deal of synergy in the acrobat tree for a dex based assassin, and I even question whether or not it is too much. But AP are still the limiting factor. Spending a lot in acrobat will limit you elsewhere, just like spending in harper on an int based assassin limits them, and they certainly have a great deal of synergy with harper. Harper will still be the tree for dps, whereas acrobat will be the tree for defense. There is a certain balance in that.

I came up with a difference of 8 in my build, but I worked out all the details including gear, which will be one of the trickiest parts to optimize on a dex version.

This penalty is being removed with the revamp, so this is a non-issue for either.

I agree with the difference of 8 I was not including 6 int from shadowdancer for the extra 3 although I only take 4 int from shadowdancer so for me it's 7.

I missed the changes to shadow dodge so that is a non-issue. Giving 3 dex for 3AP was too much if dex is now a DC stat for insta-kills. Giving 6 Dex for 3 AP as it exists on live is ridiculous.

Without getting into a point-counterpoint discussion I see a very optimized build when I look at your int-based assassin except for 2 easy gear swaps. When I look at your dex-based assassin I see a very unoptimized build with many ways to improve it. You would be better off keeping your existing gear and using a +2 insightful dex augment and dex yugo pots.

I will work up my halfing assassin a little more, but I think I would still go that direction if I can use dex instead of int. The shadowdodge changes make a big difference so you are right that even if dex is better it won't be multitudes better depending on what they do with the capstone. That is really the key - whether dex gets buffed in the capstone or not.

[Severlin]

Note that our current internal build does *not* have a change to Assassinate to allow for a Dexterity based DC. That was a question to get feedback. As I read through the thread that might be too good?

Sev~

[slarden]

Note that our current internal build does *not* have a change to Assassinate to allow for a Dexterity based DC. That was a question to get feedback. As I read through the thread that might be too good?

Sev~

With the changes you are making to shadow dodge I think it's fine

With shadow dodge as it is on live - +6 dex for 3 AP it was way over the top. Since you are changing shadow dodge to +3 dex for 6AP I think it's fine.

I think you should autogrant insightful reflexes as a free feat in the capstone though to even things out.

Please reconsider boosting sneak speed though.

[Thar]

Note that our current internal build does *not* have a change to Assassinate to allow for a Dexterity based DC. That was a question to get feedback. As I read through the thread that might be too good?

Sev~

INT or Dex should be fine either way. INT for those skills based rogues and DEX for those skill based rogues. Dex probably lends ot a little better combat useage but with int to damage in harper, both are used and viable. I know an int based barbarian... yes as silly as that sounds it works for him.

[dualscissors]

Note that our current internal build does *not* have a change to Assassinate to allow for a Dexterity based DC. That was a question to get feedback. As I read through the thread that might be too good?

Sev~

"Too good" might be open to debate. Dex assassins would certainly have a freedom from the Harper tree and defensive synergy with Acrobat that Int assassins wouldn't.

[Failedlegend]

What about a Tier 5 or Core 12 Ability "Hide in Plain Sight" that granted the ability to hide during combat at a penalty based on how many enemies are around (bigger penalty for one's aggroed to you)

[CThruTheEgo]

If you really think you are right, then take CThru's build and convert it to LD, for arguments' sake keeping ED points and APs in assassin tree spent like on my build.

Thanks for directing me to this post. I'm still catching up on the thread and doing a lot of skimming.


First, choose your twists and then spend other APs. Then you'll see that to stay somewhat competitive in DPS you'll need to drop your INT by 10 points, which gives you DC 2 pints lower than my build while I can still easily burst for 2 more.

I'd lose 6 int from shadowdancer and would have to drop the int twist to swap it with stealthy from shadowdancer. That's only 7 int, but of course I'd drop 1 more from enhancements to even it out and free up 2 AP. So that's a loss of 8 int which is and 4 DCs and 6 damage when you factor in know the angles.

Without the need for brace for impact to offset the penalty from Yugo pots, balanced attacks is an obvious choice to use with no mercy.


You'll have lower saves

I'd end up with 70 reflex from loss of lithe and 8 int, but including the new 4 from the capstone. That's still no fail and before uncanny dodge and trap/past life bonuses. Other saves would stay the same. Well, fort would probably go up actually, since I'd probably get some con from dreadnaught.


no defensive roll

This is one thing I have definitely noticed. Defensive roll is basically not an option for an int build because of how many points they have to waste in acrobat to reach improved defensive roll. But a dex build will likely already be spending 18 in acro for the easy 4 dex, so another 5 AP is easily justifiable.


lower dodge

Max dex bonus is going to be the limiting factor here for both versions. I'd lose 3 from lithe and have 3 less than the dex version from shadow dodge. That would give me a MDB of 29 and I'd have no trouble keeping this max with measure the foe and nimbleness. The dex version would only have 3 more MDB, so this is a minor difference.


lower threat reduction

I'd have 40% from subtlety, 5 from shiv, and 10 from sly flourish. If there's a difference, it won't be by much.


maybe +20 hamp

Gearing might mean the dex version has even less heal amp than this. Have you considered gearing options?


slightly more MP

5


but no No Mercy

True. As far as I can tell, you basically have to drop know the angles to get this. But tbh, this may be enough of an incentive once you have balanced attacks in epics.


maybe 8-9 straight damage more

That sounds about right.


one less feat for example rogue PL

I've already got all the feats I want so this is a non-issue for me.


slightly better positive spell power.

The self healing on the dex version is lower due to less heal amp and lower spell power, but this is offset by the increased defenses, mostly from improved defensive roll, so overall survivability seems better on the dex version. It is worth noting, however, that running in dreadnaught means a loss of 15% incorp (assuming you have ghostly somewhere, and that's available on enough gear that you should).

[CThruTheEgo]

Note that our current internal build does *not* have a change to Assassinate to allow for a Dexterity based DC. That was a question to get feedback. As I read through the thread that might be too good?

Sev~

Alright, so after writing my response to brzytki's dreadnaught build, I'm not seeing many actual advantages to staying int based if running in dreadnaught. At least, the advantages do not outweigh the gains. I think the real boost in power for a dex based assassin comes from no mercy coupled with balanced attacks. Assassins do not have an inherent method of inducing helplessness, but balanced attacks is certainly a viable option for any twf in epics. And it's easier for a dex based to fit balanced attacks because they don't need to twist brace for impact to offset the penalty for Yugo pots. The extra damage from no mercy is difficult to quantify because balanced attacks is not on demand and may be inconsistent at times. Nevertheless, 30% extra damage is nothing to sneeze, not to mention the extra 50% you get against helpless mobs in the first place. Dreadnaught gives you another 50% while any action boost is active, and you should have plenty of those.

Balanced attacks also offers defense in that it knocks mobs down. Coupled with a 70+% chance to take half damage when below 50% hp from improved defensive roll, and a slightly higher dodge to offset the lower incorp, immunity to knockdown and slippery surfaces, and you've got some nice defensive boosts that should offset the lower self healing.

Of the other options I looked at, I didn't see OPness so much as just variability. With this combination however – shadow dodge, improved defensive roll, no mercy, and balanced attacks – I can see why the dex version is too powerful. That's rather unfortunate actually, because there is no diversity among int builds. There's really only one optimal version with a few tiny varations. But I see now that this build would be the dex version of that – one optimal dex version with a few tiny variations.

So the problem with dex based is the synergy between dex, shadow dodge, improved defensive roll, no mercy, and balanced attacks. Altogether, I agree with others that it's just a bit too much. I'm not an advocate for nerfing acrobat, but the problem for dex based assassins would be fixed if something as simple as shadow dodge was moved to tier 5. Then, just like int builds now, dex builds would have to waste a lot of points to access improved defensive roll and no mercy and would be making a greater sacrifice to reach them.

I stand corrected. Sev, please take note, this particular combination is what would make dex builds OP.

[brzytki]

Note that our current internal build does *not* have a change to Assassinate to allow for a Dexterity based DC. That was a question to get feedback. As I read through the thread that might be too good?

Sev~

It's not that it's too good. I'll write it as a list so that you can understand better: it would replace almost all INT builds with DEX builds because every INT build you can come up with, converted to DEX would be ultimately better (but not all people min/max)
it would allow more variety of builds but only DEX builds
you'd see more variety in races being played
you'd see even fewer rogues using Shadowdancer (unless you revamp it)
with the switch from SD to LD rogues would be finally competitive DPS-wise with other classes in epics while being able to maintain high DC (they'll stay if SD gets more damage perks)
it would help with rogues survivability
some new players without gear will have a harder time with traps because they'll choose DEX over INT (not necessarily bad, a good learning experience)
DEX based rogues will have an easier time raising their DC in the future
lazy rogue players could dump INT completely and won't bother with traps unless you make them more of a threat (though they'll be probably ostracized lol)
That's my summary for your idea.

[Coldin]

Note that our current internal build does *not* have a change to Assassinate to allow for a Dexterity based DC. That was a question to get feedback. As I read through the thread that might be too good?

Sev~

Personally, I like that Assassinate uses a different stat. It makes it more interesting for building rather than just "stack dexterity". With Assassinate having an Int based DC, some real choices have to be made when it comes to builds. Plus, there are a lot of ways to get more boosts to the Assassinate DC than before. I think it's in a decent place already.

[brzytki]

@CThru, in my post when I said "lower" I meant lower than my DEX build, not lower than old INT. And that's the whole point: if you change your build and try to keep up with the DPS of DEX based one, you'll end up with almost everything else on your build lower than on DEX one. And then you can ask yourself, why even go INT?

[bbqzor]

As I read through the thread that might be too good?
Its not too good. Its a couple of people saying "its slightly better, so everyone will change to it". Maybe. But there are a lot and I mean A LOT of people who dont play "the best" combination in this game. I dont really think thats a valid marker here. Its not like 20 dc better or something, the margin isnt all that.

Frankly I think its not only fine but healthy for the game. It doesnt make any overpowered builds. It will surely have some builds which are slightly better in things like assassinate DC, but they will lose in other areas like search/disable, KtA dps and tactics synergy, skill points, and so on. It will also open up more builds, with different multiclass options and future enhancement combinations. I mean look at the Mechanic tree that just went up. An int based assassin-mechanic cross is a lot better than a dex-based one. That sort of future-door-opening synergy is the exact reason why dex should go here. It gives people agency to build, without power creep. Thats what DDO character building should be all about.

Allowing int or dex is a good move. That some people "must" switch over for a few dc, fine. That some people are upset they will "have" to redo their int rog into dex, fine. This isnt the kind of thing that hurts or invalidates any character. It just gives us more options, and approximately the same power level, and allows more playable combinations with other parts of the game. All of that is pure win. The "too good" crowed is focused on a very tiny slice of that pie, and really only looking at a few points of assassinate dc. Thats not the whole picture. /2cents.

[Fedora1]

Note that our current internal build does *not* have a change to Assassinate to allow for a Dexterity based DC. That was a question to get feedback. As I read through the thread that might be too good?

Sev~

Well it seems that making Assassinate DEX or INT (vs INT only) would certainly be somewhat better in many cases I don't know that it is "too good".

What about something like in the PDK tree where as long as CHA is higher than STR they can use half the CHA modifier toward combat feats like trip/stun - is there an easy way to do something along those lines for assassinate? Keep it based on INT, but if DEX is higher than INT they can use half their DEX modifier for assassinate? Would this would let a max dex build attain a decent DC? And getting all the other benefits of dex - at the same time an INT build would still have the best assassinate DC and be able to use the harper tree to make up for the lower dex. I still think Insightful Reflexes should be an auto grant in the cores, either 18 or 20. Hiding in Plain Sight should be tossed in as well.

*NOTE* I haven't done the numbers, if anyone else is good at that please see if that would be workable or not.

[slarden]

Its not too good. Its a couple of people saying "its slightly better, so everyone will change to it". Maybe. But there are a lot and I mean A LOT of people who dont play "the best" combination in this game. I dont really think thats a valid marker here. Its not like 20 dc better or something, the margin isnt all that.

Frankly I think its not only fine but healthy for the game. It doesnt make any overpowered builds. It will surely have some builds which are slightly better in things like assassinate DC, but they will lose in other areas like search/disable, KtA dps and tactics synergy, skill points, and so on. It will also open up more builds, with different multiclass options and future enhancement combinations. I mean look at the Mechanic tree that just went up. An int based assassin-mechanic cross is a lot better than a dex-based one. That sort of future-door-opening synergy is the exact reason why dex should go here. It gives people agency to build, without power creep. Thats what DDO character building should be all about.

Allowing int or dex is a good move. That some people "must" switch over for a few dc, fine. That some people are upset they will "have" to redo their int rog into dex, fine. This isnt the kind of thing that hurts or invalidates any character. It just gives us more options, and approximately the same power level, and allows more playable combinations with other parts of the game. All of that is pure win. The "too good" crowed is focused on a very tiny slice of that pie, and really only looking at a few points of assassinate dc. Thats not the whole picture. /2cents.

It gives a better option just another option. They need to give something for int builds if they allow dex builds to take assassinate.

[jaggyjag]

Note that our current internal build does *not* have a change to Assassinate to allow for a Dexterity based DC. That was a question to get feedback. As I read through the thread that might be too good?

Sev~

Sev, a majority of Assassin players want a skill based DC. This is only fair in light of the bard's coup de grace. I made a post regarding it and sent a PM with it as well. Surely you can see this is the cleanest and fairest way forward on Assassinate can't you?

We have been researching this in and out of game in the guild, raids, pugs, for the past three weeks collecting data and comments and all that data shows that a skill based DC for Assassinate is the preferred way forward (89%). This included new and old players to the game. There was also a significant level of resentment that the primary role of Assassins had been negated and then give to anouther class.

I can only guess that will understand that this is the best and only way forward with Assassinate's DC and you are still asking questions regarding the DC from the public. So please take this as your Team's own, use a skill base DC and take care the Assassin players who have been waiting so long and deserve a fair shake.

I cannot imagine any possible reason that you would use this technique in light of the Coup De Grace being live, but if for some reason you are thinking that please have the courtesy to explain why? and why Assassin's will continue to be second fiddle in their own primary role?

[FuzzyDuck81]

Note that our current internal build does *not* have a change to Assassinate to allow for a Dexterity based DC. That was a question to get feedback. As I read through the thread that might be too good?

Sev~

I think it'd be fair enough - highest of INT or DEX would be fine... DEX might be able to be raised higher, but then the INT based builds get the advantage of a pile more skillpoints & extra harper synergy, so it's pretty much a wash IMO.

[bbqzor]

They need to give something for int builds if they allow dex builds to take assassinate.
Nope. They dont. Int builds dont get any worse. Thats the wrong kind of thinking.

Look right now, using a combination of Int abilities is the best, so thats what people do. That doesnt mean "they have to add something for dex". And they havent yet.

But what the thread shows is they clearly should, rogues are into dex, the tree should support both. And so what if it makes a new "best"... its just not that much better. Certainly not enough to negate any and every int build. Certainly not enough for crazy power creep.

People are throwing away the future over a few tiny cases now. This isnt a game where the "now" ever stays steady for long. Thinking only in terms of now is a bad way to develop things, because youre always behind the times. Dex might look better now, but as time marches on and other trees get redone, hopefully destinies get a pass, etc no one is going to know how things wind up. Better to have options open, instead of leaving assassins shoehorned into only one combination, which makes them vulnerable to getting caught in all those other factors as they come up.

Again, go look at mechanic, remembering that its only the first draft. Theres some really good possibilities there for int assassins. That a dex one has no hope of utilizing well if even at all. Case in point, allowing both only broadens horizons, its not setting the sun on anyone.

Give assassins some choice. The top endgame combinations anyone has posted result in a little bit more defense, good. Rogues often have problems with that top end. The dps is largely the same, the assassinate dcs are very similar. So int gives you more skills, tactics, trap synergy, etc... dex gets you more defense. How is that bad for the game, or bad to have as a choice?

Its just not bad or overpowered. Dex being better at some things isnt the same as overpowered. And int being worse isnt the same as it being so worse its not playable. I hope it goes in.

[brzytki]

Sev, a majority of Assassin players want a skill based DC. This is only fair in light of the bard's coup de grace. I made a post regarding it and sent a PM with it as well. Surely you can see this is the cleanest and fairest way forward on Assassinate can't you?

We have been researching this in and out of game in the guild, raids, pugs, for the past three weeks collecting data and comments and all that data shows that a skill based DC for Assassinate is the preferred way forward (89%). This included new and old players to the game. There was also a significant level of resentment that the primary role of Assassins had been negated and then give to anouther class.

I can only guess that will understand that this is the best and only way forward with Assassinate's DC and you are still asking questions regarding the DC from the public. So please take this as your Team's own, use a skill base DC and take care the Assassin players who have been waiting so long and deserve a fair shake.

I cannot imagine any possible reason that you would use this technique in light of the Coup De Grace being live, but if for some reason you are thinking that please have the courtesy to explain why? and why Assassin's will continue to be second fiddle in their own primary role?
No, no easy buttons. If one ability is clearly OP, the solution shouldn't be making the same mistake again but nerfing the ability in question (preferably into oblivion lol) What skill would you have it use? Hide? MS? One of the social skills? A new one? The first two can be buffed to around 150 iirc, social skills use CHA so you'd get slightly worse DC with no investment (or maybe you want to play CHA based assassin?), a new skill specially for assassins is a bad idea (it would probably use your DEX or INT mod, so you could just add 25-30 DC to what you have on live).

[dualscissors]

Sev, a majority of Assassin players want a skill based DC. This is only fair in light of the bard's coup de grace. I made a post regarding it and sent a PM with it as well. Surely you can see this is the cleanest and fairest way forward on Assassinate can't you?

We have been researching this in and out of game in the guild, raids, pugs, for the past three weeks collecting data and comments and all that data shows that a skill based DC for Assassinate is the preferred way forward (89%). This included new and old players to the game. There was also a significant level of resentment that the primary role of Assassins had been negated and then give to anouther class.

I can only guess that will understand that this is the best and only way forward with Assassinate's DC and you are still asking questions regarding the DC from the public. So please take this as your Team's own, use a skill base DC and take care the Assassin players who have been waiting so long and deserve a fair shake.

I cannot imagine any possible reason that you would use this technique in light of the Coup De Grace being live, but if for some reason you are thinking that please have the courtesy to explain why? and why Assassin's will continue to be second fiddle in their own primary role?


Would you instead be okay with a recognition that Coup is horribly out of bounds (and is a stronger assassination tool than assassinate), and instead of breaking more things, be okay with the devs just reeling Coup way back?

I have to say personally that I wouldn't really feel any more enjoyment or achievement unleashing an absurd 92 DC on mobs than I would, say, wrestling and defeating my preschool nieces and nephews.

[slarden]

Of the other options I looked at, I didn't see OPness so much as just variability. With this combination however – shadow dodge, improved defensive roll, no mercy, and balanced attacks – I can see why the dex version is too powerful. That's rather unfortunate actually, because there is no diversity among int builds. There's really only one optimal version with a few tiny varations. But I see now that this build would be the dex version of that – one optimal dex version with a few tiny variations.

In my example I showed sneak attack damage to show how you can easily compensate for the loss of a few points from KTA. I was only using that because people downplayed no mercy which is one of the most powerful enhancements in the game.

I've been emphasizing No Mercy all along but not everyone appreciates how powerful it so I used SA in the example to just compare raw dps and dex still wins. It's not just balanced attacks, it's 2x thunderforged weapons with paralyzing and mortal fear + no mercy + sense weakness. It doesn't matter how many hp the enemies have they are going down fast.

I am fine if they allow dex builds to have assassinate but they need to do something for int builds to balance things.

[slarden]

Nope. They dont. Int builds dont get any worse. Thats the wrong kind of thinking.

Look right now, using a combination of Int abilities is the best, so thats what people do. That doesnt mean "they have to add something for dex". And they havent yet.

But what the thread shows is they clearly should, rogues are into dex, the tree should support both. And so what if it makes a new "best"... its just not that much better. Certainly not enough to negate any and every int build. Certainly not enough for crazy power creep.

People are throwing away the future over a few tiny cases now. This isnt a game where the "now" ever stays steady for long. Thinking only in terms of now is a bad way to develop things, because youre always behind the times. Dex might look better now, but as time marches on and other trees get redone, hopefully destinies get a pass, etc no one is going to know how things wind up. Better to have options open, instead of leaving assassins shoehorned into only one combination, which makes them vulnerable to getting caught in all those other factors as they come up.

Again, go look at mechanic, remembering that its only the first draft. Theres some really good possibilities there for int assassins. That a dex one has no hope of utilizing well if even at all. Case in point, allowing both only broadens horizons, its not setting the sun on anyone.

Give assassins some choice. The top endgame combinations anyone has posted result in a little bit more defense, good. Rogues often have problems with that top end. The dps is largely the same, the assassinate dcs are very similar. So int gives you more skills, tactics, trap synergy, etc... dex gets you more defense. How is that bad for the game, or bad to have as a choice?

Its just not bad or overpowered. Dex being better at some things isnt the same as overpowered. And int being worse isnt the same as it being so worse its not playable. I hope it goes in.

Giving a really good choice and a subpar choice doesn't make sense. They need to adjust for int builds to balance things out otherwise they should just pass and leave it as is.

[CThruTheEgo]

Sev, a majority of Assassin players want a skill based DC. This is only fair in light of the bard's coup de grace. I made a post regarding it and sent a PM with it as well. Surely you can see this is the cleanest and fairest way forward on Assassinate can't you?

We have been researching this in and out of game in the guild, raids, pugs, for the past three weeks collecting data and comments and all that data shows that a skill based DC for Assassinate is the preferred way forward (89%). This included new and old players to the game. There was also a significant level of resentment that the primary role of Assassins had been negated and then give to anouther class.

I can only guess that will understand that this is the best and only way forward with Assassinate's DC and you are still asking questions regarding the DC from the public. So please take this as your Team's own, use a skill base DC and take care the Assassin players who have been waiting so long and deserve a fair shake.

I cannot imagine any possible reason that you would use this technique in light of the Coup De Grace being live, but if for some reason you are thinking that please have the courtesy to explain why? and why Assassin's will continue to be second fiddle in their own primary role?

LOL! You sound like a politician giving a sales pitch.

Who is this "majority" that you've interviewed? Where is your "data?" How did you collect, record, and analyze it? Can you provide us with the raw data so that we can make our own judgements about the validity of it? LOL!

The majority of responses in this thread are against making assassinate DC skill based. A small minority have expressed a desire for this. This ship has already sailed anyway jaggyjag. Sev has said this isn't going to happen. Thanks for the laugh though.

[brzytki]

Giving a really good choice and a subpar choice doesn't make sense. They need to adjust for int builds to balance things out otherwise they should just pass and leave it as is.

The best solution to this would be a revamp of Shadowdancer. But for this we would have to wait a few months. Still, nothing bad would come out of it, if during those couple of month DEX would shine brighter than INT.

[bbqzor]

it's 2x thunderforged weapons with paralyzing and mortal fear + no mercy + sense weakness. It doesn't matter how many hp the enemies have they are going down fast
See this is my point. If youre using those weapons, you dont need a dex based no mercy assassin. The mobs are going to die fast regardless. Anyone with the time and energy to invest into getting 60 phlogs the normal way is going to see returns on their crafting in any case, and have sufficient time to make either base stat work. One combo, based on items which will (according to dev intent) eventually be replaced is a poor reason to limit a whole enhancement tree, especially when its comparing between going 400 mph, and 420 mph. Thats not really a game altering difference.


I am fine if they allow dex builds to have assassinate but they need to do something for int builds to balance things.
So youre fine if they add dex because why, exactly. Clearly its not overpowered, or you wouldnt be fine if it showed up in game. So you just want int to get free stuff as well?


Giving a really good choice and a subpar choice doesn't make sense. They need to adjust for int builds to balance things out otherwise they should just pass and leave it as is.
So if you cant get free stuff, they should throw away the option for everyone else?

Look Ill agree to just disagree. Dex will be better at some things, Int at others. Thats how ddo works. All the situations people are pointing out dex is better, are so high end, and either so marginal or with trade offs, I just dont see it.

Changing around to LD and stuff to get more defense ok fine. That doesnt account for no fast sneaking from SD core, no unbreakable invis selection, etc... those are all HUGE stealth tools lost. People focus on one little thing, assassinate dc, a few points of damage, etc. Those are the changes you see between ANY competing options in ddo. Thats normal. Thats exactly why dex assassin is precisely normal. Theres no huge game break here. Its just, oh look new comparisons, some of them dex is better... yes. Anytime you get new comparisons, some of them are better. Otherwise theyre not really bringing anything to the table. But theres a lot of trade offs too. Its just that no one has a thread showing how a fast sneaking rogue with invis that wont break can do cool stuff. But, they can, very much. Especially assassins. Theres just no number stat to show that so it gets lost with destiny shuffle.

Either sev/devs will do it or they wont. But the concern over it breaking something isnt really founded. Some people will gain a couple assassinate dc. Some people might gain a few dps. One or two combos might heavily favor dex. But there are a ton of int/SD perks as well, from tactics, to traps with new mechanic tree (people posting here even look at that? assassin+cc=nice), to skills (not everyone has skills of 100+ everywhere), etc. While the top top top end might go up a little, its not going up so much that everyone will reroll their paladins into assassins. So Im sure its fine. For the 99% its just going to be a better, more flexible game. And for the 1%, theyre going to be OP anyhow, and ask for killer DM, and using dex instead wont change that.

[CThruTheEgo]

In my example I showed sneak attack damage to show how you can easily compensate for the loss of a few points from KTA.

AP are the limiting factor here though. After working out enhancements for a dex build, there is some great synergy in a lot of places, but you can't take anywhere near all of it. Taking the sneak attacks from halfling or shadar-kai will mean sacrifices elsewhere, probably in acrobat which is where the greatest synergy is found. So this is one of those relatively well balanced, just another variation situations.


I was only using that because people downplayed no mercy which is one of the most powerful enhancements in the game.

I've been emphasizing No Mercy all along but not everyone appreciates how powerful it so I used SA in the example to just compare raw dps and dex still wins. It's not just balanced attacks, it's 2x thunderforged weapons with paralyzing and mortal fear + no mercy + sense weakness. It doesn't matter how many hp the enemies have they are going down fast.

This is where the real imbalance lies. The synergy is that dex builds have every reason to spend 20 points in acrobat to be able to acces improved defensive roll and no mercy. That reason is 4 stat points for 18 AP. Int based has none.

Although I will point out that weapon induced paralysis does not put mobs in a state of helplessness (http://ddowiki.com/page/Helpless), so it really is all about balanced attacks coupled with no mercy. Mortal fear also has nothing to do with this and is just as available to int based assassins. I agree that with that combination mobs will go down fast, but that power is not entirely limited or related to being dex based.

[slarden]

See this is my point. If youre using those weapons, you dont need a dex based no mercy assassin. The mobs are going to die fast regardless. Anyone with the time and energy to invest into getting 60 phlogs the normal way is going to see returns on their crafting in any case, and have sufficient time to make either base stat work. One combo, based on items which will (according to dev intent) eventually be replaced is a poor reason to limit a whole enhancement tree, especially when its comparing between going 400 mph, and 420 mph. Thats not really a game altering difference.


So youre fine if they add dex because why, exactly. Clearly its not overpowered, or you wouldnt be fine if it showed up in game. So you just want int to get free stuff as well?


So if you cant get free stuff, they should throw away the option for everyone else?

Look Ill agree to just disagree. Dex will be better at some things, Int at others. Thats how ddo works. All the situations people are pointing out dex is better, are so high end, and either so marginal or with trade offs, I just dont see it.

Changing around to LD and stuff to get more defense ok fine. That doesnt account for no fast sneaking from SD core, no unbreakable invis selection, etc... those are all HUGE stealth tools lost. People focus on one little thing, assassinate dc, a few points of damage, etc. Those are the changes you see between ANY competing options in ddo. Thats normal. Thats exactly why dex assassin is precisely normal. Theres no huge game break here. Its just, oh look new comparisons, some of them dex is better... yes. Anytime you get new comparisons, some of them are better. Otherwise theyre not really bringing anything to the table. But theres a lot of trade offs too. Its just that no one has a thread showing how a fast sneaking rogue with invis that wont break can do cool stuff. But, they can, very much. Especially assassins. Theres just no number stat to show that so it gets lost with destiny shuffle.

Either sev/devs will do it or they wont. But the concern over it breaking something isnt really founded. Some people will gain a couple assassinate dc. Some people might gain a few dps. One or two combos might heavily favor dex. But there are a ton of int/SD perks as well, from tactics, to traps with new mechanic tree (people posting here even look at that? assassin+cc=nice), to skills (not everyone has skills of 100+ everywhere), etc. While the top top top end might go up a little, its not going up so much that everyone will reroll their paladins into assassins. So Im sure its fine. For the 99% its just going to be a better, more flexible game. And for the 1%, theyre going to be OP anyhow, and ask for killer DM, and using dex instead wont change that.

I don't think you understand what I am saying. I am saying if they add dex to assassinate I will 100% for certain go with a dex build. I am not saying I will be unhappy because my int build is not as good. There would be absolutely no reason to go with an int build.

It's not just an issue of trade-offs - dex is clearly better.

Quite frankly assassins have always been int builds. If they think assassin needs a buff they should buff the assassin tree directly and keep it int-based rather than proxy-buffing it by allowing dex which will add more powerful builds. As I've said before I am fine going with a dex build, but others that farmed for gear and have less time than I do will find that the optimized assassin they've worked on for so long is now obsolete because dex builds are better.

I think the devs need to be careful about that. Buffing the tree for int builds is easy
- auto grant insightful reflexes in the capstone so one build doesn't have a feat advantage over the other
- auto grant into-to-hit and int-to-damage in the assassin tree so int builds lose some of their AP disadvantage
- don't grant dex bonus in the capstone

[redoubt]

1. Add DEX to assassinate.

2. Add INT to hit/damage in assassin cores

3. Make a few optional traps / chests that require max stat to get.

4. Add insightful reflexes to the assassin capstone.

This will add options and not just change the ONE assassin build from INT to DEX. You could actually build either way.

[bbqzor]

I am saying if they add dex to assassinate I will 100% for certain go with a dex build.
Good for you?


There would be absolutely no reason to go with an int build.
For you. Not for everyone. Others might rather do int+traps, or int w/ tactics, or whatever combo. You are talking only about some 20 rog endgame dc focused build here. Thats not the entire tree, or the entire game. What about a rogue/arty multiclass... they might well prefer int. Even if dex was there. Or an assassin+mechanic with traps to split up mobs or cc mobs, allowing them more freedom in engaging single targets to assassinate. That would be nice, and not work with dex.


dex is clearly better
Without one build that does EVERYTHING better, by a margin thats large enough to be clearly tangible in play, then no. Its not.

Theres no single dex build that does assassinate, trap disarming, trap making/using, dps, stealth, survivability vs melee, permits ranged options and provides equal cross class access that int does.

Youre going to measure only one thing, you think dex is better for that thing. Fine, Im not saying dex doesnt have its ups. It also has its downs, even when looking at one tiny slice, like reduced skill points, trap dcs, etc. You think its worth the trade off fine, but it IS a tradeoff. That slice is not the totality of the tree, the possibilities, or the game. Dex doesnt outclass them all. Just agree to disagree... I cant say which one thing is most important to anyone, only that different things are important to everyone. You like dex, great. Take that improvement, because asking for int to get the same thing so you can just stay int and still wind up in the same place is circular.

[slarden]

AP are the limiting factor here though. After working out enhancements for a dex build, there is some great synergy in a lot of places, but you can't take anywhere near all of it. Taking the sneak attacks from halfling or shadar-kai will mean sacrifices elsewhere, probably in acrobat which is where the greatest synergy is found. So this is one of those relatively well balanced, just another variation situations.

This is where the real imbalance lies. The synergy is that dex builds have every reason to spend 20 points in acrobat to be able to acces improved defensive roll and no mercy. That reason is 4 stat points for 18 AP. Int based has none.



You have to look back at the chain. I stated no mercy is one of the reasons why dex builds would be better - but you and others downplayed how powerful it is.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/456558-Rogue-Assassin-Changes?p=5562215&viewfull=1#post5562215

I only used SA in my example for that reason - because it was downplayed and hard to measure the benefit. My plan was always to use no mercy since I have a mortal fear weapons and already use sense weakness and balanced attacks. If you have a mortal fear weapon no mercy is a no-brainer. I even mentioned that option in my example and that is the option I always planned to use.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/456558-Rogue-Assassin-Changes?p=5562538&viewfull=1#post5562538

I only have one mortal fear weapon and my tier 2 is dragon's edge and not paralyzing. Paralyzed enemies are taking extra damage from sense weakness at least on my Shiradi caster, but I don't have paralyzing on my tier 2 thunderforged weapon for my rogue so I don't know.

[slarden]

Good for you?


For you. Not for everyone. Others might rather do int+traps, or int w/ tactics, or whatever combo. You are talking only about some 20 rog endgame dc focused build here. Thats not the entire tree, or the entire game. What about a rogue/arty multiclass... they might well prefer int. Even if dex was there. Or an assassin+mechanic with traps to split up mobs or cc mobs, allowing them more freedom in engaging single targets to assassinate. That would be nice, and not work with dex.


Without one build that does EVERYTHING better, by a margin thats large enough to be clearly tangible in play, then no. Its not.

Theres no single dex build that does assassinate, trap disarming, trap making/using, dps, stealth, survivability vs melee, permits ranged options and provides equal cross class access that int does.

Youre going to measure only one thing, you think dex is better for that thing. Fine, Im not saying dex doesnt have its ups. It also has its downs, even when looking at one tiny slice, like reduced skill points, trap dcs, etc. You think its worth the trade off fine, but it IS a tradeoff. That slice is not the totality of the tree, the possibilities, or the game. Dex doesnt outclass them all. Just agree to disagree... I cant say which one thing is most important to anyone, only that different things are important to everyone. You like dex, great. Take that improvement, because asking for int to get the same thing so you can just stay int and still wind up in the same place is circular.

Sorry, nothing you are saying here makes any sense at all. This isn't a matter of personal preference or trade-offs. Dex would be superior to int builds and it's not really close. Int helps in little things that don't really matter such as lowering 2 skills a little so you go from "no-fail" to "no fail". Giving a little more damage on kta.

Turbine really has 2 choices here:

1) Keep assassin tree as int-only
2) Make assassinate better of dex or int and give a few easy buffs to int-based assassins so both are viable

I think the 2nd choice is best so people have more options, but the first option is better than adding dex to assassinate and calling it a day.

[CThruTheEgo]

Paralyzed enemies are taking extra damage from sense weakness at least on my Shiradi caster, but I don't have paralyzing on my tier 2 thunderforged weapon for my rogue so I don't know.

On the wiki page I linked in my previous response, paralysis induced by ghoul touch does count as a helpless state. So it might be that paralysis from nerve venom (assuming that's how you're paralyzing mobs on a shiradi caster) also counts as helpless, but I know weapon induced paralysis does not.

[bbqzor]

On the wiki page I linked in my previous response, paralysis induced by ghoul touch does count as a helpless state. So it might be that paralysis from nerve venom (assuming that's how you're paralyzing mobs on a shiradi caster) also counts as helpless, but I know weapon induced paralysis does not.

Nerve venom counts as helpless. Paralyzer procs off weapons do not. Dunno about TF paralyze, never tried it, dont plan to... but if its a copy of the general weapon mutation its not helpless.

[brzytki]

On the wiki page I linked in my previous response, paralysis induced by ghoul touch does count as a helpless state. So it might be that paralysis from nerve venom (assuming that's how you're paralyzing mobs on a shiradi caster) also counts as helpless, but I know weapon induced paralysis does not.

Correct, Nerve Venom = helpless, para weapon = no helpless.

[brzytki]

I'd just like to emphasis that the proposed builds you see in this thread are for high end rogues with all the best gear with maxed out EDs and fate points. To come close in DPS to top barbs, palies and bards in LD you'd pretty much need to be Epic Completionist and higher on my build (Cocoon, Stealthy, Balanced Attacks, Sense Weakness) and have enough gear and buffs to shore up the loss in assassinate DC from switching EDs and not maxing DEX in favour of more DPS enhancements. It's not something an average player can do.

[redoubt]

I'd just like to add that I've seen barbarians do a MASS insta-kill spell. It is at least as powerful as the un-nerfed version of wail of the banshee.

Kinda makes me wonder why we are arguing with each other over teeny tiny buffs.

I've never been one to push for easy buttons, but after watching these barbarians, well... by all means, buff the stuffing out of rogues.

[draven1]

I've been emphasizing No Mercy all along but not everyone appreciates how powerful it so I used SA in the example to just compare raw dps and dex still wins. It's not just balanced attacks, it's 2x thunderforged weapons with paralyzing and mortal fear + no mercy + sense weakness. It doesn't matter how many hp the enemies have they are going down fast.



Does paralyzing on TF weapons render helpless? Usual paralyzing doesn't. Only hold does, not paralyzing.

By the way, "Mortal fear damage shouldn't be affected by helpless. "

If you have 100%+ dmg on helpless, it means mortal fear proc will instakill any mob including orange named, it's really over-powered. That's why TWF barbs on LD are so-overpowered now. They literally killed mobs within 1 sec at high rate at the toughest contents. No save instakill.

Mortal fear really need a nerf.

[slarden]

I'd just like to emphasis that the proposed builds you see in this thread are for high end rogues with all the best gear with maxed out EDs and fate points. To come close in DPS to top barbs, palies and bards in LD you'd pretty much need to be Epic Completionist and higher on my build (Cocoon, Stealthy, Balanced Attacks, Sense Weakness) and have enough gear and buffs to shore up the loss in assassinate DC from switching EDs and not maxing DEX in favour of more DPS enhancements. It's not something an average player can do.

Aye, assassin is a very advanced and complicated build compared to easy-button swashbuckler, barbarian, paladin and shiradi builds. Adding the dex option will open it up to more people because of the extra power you get from the build. Even if you just have no mercy with balanced attacks, stealthy and cocoon it is still really good and can be obtained easily. That is a huge power gain for an assassin without the past lifes to take sense weakness + balanced attacks which is good.

Prior to the harper tree I actually used no mercy instead of sense weakness (although they do stack) and then used daunting roar, balanced attack, damage boost from LD and cocoon as an int build. When the harper tree came out I had to rotate between sense weakness and daunting roar.

[Nothingtoseehere]

A quick rough Dex based assassin to show just how much better it is to an Int one

Dex assassin:
Summary: Pros
-Higher DC at 76 with lesser investment
- Higher HP
-Higher dodge, up to 98/100%
-Improved defensive roll with ~80% chance
-Significantly more dmg, like triple or something silly
-At least as good if not better saves
Cons:
-Less Hamp, though equivalent is possible
-loss of some skills but nothing that is needed or overly usefull
-slightly lower search and disable but still in the nofail range probably or only fail on 1s or 2s

Stats:
28/32/34/36 pt
Str: 8 base +6 tome +8 item +2 ins +2 profane +1 exceptional +2 shippy = 29 (9)
Dex: 20 base +6 tome +7 lvl + 11 item +4 ins + 1 exc +2 profane +2 shippy + 12 enhancement +0 ED = 65 (27) Add +1 twist or drop 1 enhancement or ins
Con: 16 base + 6 tome +11 item +2 ins +1 exc + 2 profane +2 shippy = 40 (15)
Int: 10/14/14/14 base +6 tome +11 item +2 ins +1 exc +2 profane +2 shippy = 34/38/38/38 (12/14)
Wis: 8/8/9/11 base +6 tome + 8 item +2 ins +1 exc +2 profane +2 shippy = 29/29/30/32 (9/9/10/11)
Cha: 8/8/9/9 base +6 tome + 8 item +2 ins +1 exc +2 profane +2 shippy = 29/29/30/30 (9/10)

ED: LD (or Avatar for specific build option)
Feats: (not necessarily in order) – may wish to grab Precision and toughness/epic toughness instead of PA + cleave for LD
1. 2wf
2. PA
3. I2wf
4. G2wf
5. IC pierce
6. Cleave
Epic
1. Sneak Attack
2. OC
3. Precision/toughness/dodge/whatever
ED
1. P2wf
2. Elusive target or some damage one

Dex additional bonuses:
64+ Tensers +4, yugo pot +2, Cartwheel Charge +2 = 72 (31)

Asassinate DC:
10 base +20 Rog + 6 ED + 4 item +31 Dex + 5 MtF= 76 DC

HP:
120 Rog + 80 epic + 45 heroic durability +10 argo fav + 45 gs +20 vitality +40 FL +420 con +20 shippy +10 harper? +60 ED +28 ED con +28 ED con? = 926 +30 toughness? = 956

Dodge cap:
25 base + 2 Shippy + 3 LAM + 6 Acro +3 halfling +10 MtF = 49

MDB:
19 armour + 3 halfling + 6 LAM + 3 shadow dodge +2 shippy +2? Aug = 35 +2 Mobility = 37 + 6 lithe = 43

Dodge:
6 uncanny dodge +11 item + 3 shadow dodge +10 MtF + 10 nimbleness + 3 halfling= 43 +3 SK PL + 3 dodge + 2 mobility = 51
NB: under max dodge setup switch to a robe, use Primal avatar ED and twist in all relevant abilities which will allow you to get to dodge cap of 49 and run at 99% or 100% dodge for 1 minute in every 2.
Will save +2
Fort save no change
Reflex save at least as good if not better

PRR is same unless invincible dodge build then probably less but you won’t get hit anyway so who cares.
MRR: same unless dodge build then maybe less but not a big concern with evasion.

Positive SP the same
Hamp: depending on how you gear the same or less.

ED:
T1:
2 con
2 Extra action boost
T2:
1 Momentum Swing
2 improved PA (if using PA)
1/3 Action boost damage (if using Precision)
T3:
1 Lay waste
3 Critical Damage
T4:
2 Volcano’s Edge
2 Con
T5:
2 Devastating Critical
2 Advancing Blows
T6:
2 Master’s Blitz – PRR version
2 con

NB taking another con would give +28 HP

Twists:
1-Stealthy
1-Cocoon
3-Balanced Attacks
4th slot: Sense Weakness?

Enhancements:
41 Assassin
26 or 31 Acro (imp defensive roll+no mercy/ Cartwheel charge)
8 or 13 racial, harper (KtA)or mech (traps)

This setup includes a redundant dex (odd score) which lets you decide where to pull that dex from and put elsewhere.


I provide two builds sorta there focusing on the LD based as opposed to the Avatar unhittible build but either one out assassinates, out DPSs out lives an int based with no major downside.
While I haven't but a Int based build beside this I worked around my own but there are some similar ones on the forums already you can look at to compare.

People saying that adding insightful reflexes and int to hit and dmg in assassin tree and call it a day - balanced, are wrong. That will never bridge the cap that dex to assassinate would create.

How about instead of devalidating Int assassins, where assassins should shine, Assassins get buffs that work regardless of int or dex based. See my last post for some such suggestions.

Those saying that Dex based isnt vastly more powerful than Int clearly haven't looked at the possibilities of the two and compared them, or they have and are burying their head in the sand to try get a tangental buff to Assassins.

[amsharkwei]

What does not work about this enhancement?

"Does not work"means,you need a "kill" to trigger the effect
in most of the time ,you have no killer buff,not to mention 4 stacks

[slarden]

Does paralyzing on TF weapons render helpless? Usual paralyzing doesn't. Only hold does, not paralyzing.

I have only one mortal fear weapon on this character and I made it into a boss beater rather than a trash beater so I have dragon's edge for tier 2. So I don't know, but based on the answers I don't think so.

[draven1]

I have only one mortal fear weapon on this character and I made it into a boss beater rather than a trash beater so I have dragon's edge for tier 2. So I don't know, but based on the answers I don't think so.

FYI, Mortal fear doesn't proc on bosses.

[gwonbush]

FYI, Mortal fear doesn't proc on bosses.

Well, the 8d8 force damage does, so it's still a good effect for bosses. And it does proc on orange named.

[Ayseifn]

The Shadow Dodge nerf was due to a stacking error that clearly was not WAI (1+2+3=+6 Dex instead of 1/2/3 Dex). Perhaps the reason it seems like a nerf to some for the acro tree to grant a 'mere' +3 stat boost is that Dex based rogues were struggling. But seriously, if the game was inundated with lots of +1/2/3 stat boots in various trees at tier-3, you'd see a lot of DC builds capitalizing on them left and right.

But ultimately, no I don't want to nerf acrobats. They've needed some major love. I was just considering the problem of an easily reachable +3 Dex increase with regard to the conversation about Dex > Int based DCs.





I didn't complain about sneak speed being in acro, though I think it probably makes sense for an ~essential ability for a sneak-assassin to be in the assassin tree. By ~essential, I mean that it would be utterly miserable to play an assassinator at regular sneak speed.

As for a mental comparison of Sneak Faster at tier-1 and Dex +3 increase at tier-3, certainly it's a lot easier to dip into another tree at tier-1, and tier-3 takes some effort in AP expenditures. I was making the observation that a 1.5 DC increase from a +3 stat boost is potent grab when you consider that most tier-3 stat increases happen at 1 point increments. This in itself isn't as big of a deal unless you are considering whether one DC stat (Dex) would outclass the traditional stat (Int).

Fighters and paladins get +6 str or con as a tier 3 ability, drawback being it you can't be raged. Barbs get Frenzy at level 6 which is 2 Str for 1 AP and then Death Frenzy at 18 which is 4 str for 1 AP. The old Shadow Dodge was in line with those, +6 physical stat and a drawback.

As for the DC stuff I'd rather dex be kept as a physical stat for the most part, so stuns and trips are fine but instant kills are not really a great idea for reasons already shown in this thread. It gets worse when you look to the future too, for example if Turbine wants to add a dex boosting item in ToEE they'll be worried about assassinate DC inflation and invalidating int assassins. Acrobats could really use some more incentives to go dex based as do swashbucklers, rangers, monks and the like too, dex for assassinate would not only invalidate int assassins it'll stall any progress making dex viable for other classes too.

Dex used to be a really strong defensive stat with some ok offence but these days not so much. AC is off the cards for most builds and reflex saves are in general less important now since Armour Up. Defensive Roll is the big draw for rogues but for acrobats it's not all that great ATM, lots of gimping to min/max around dex to hit 100 reflex to make it reliable but by doing so you give up a viable stun for No Mercy, heavy armour for more reliable defence, other str synergies like Divine Might's 22.5dmg/15 saves and burning a lot of gear slots/APs/feats to get there.

[slarden]

People saying that adding insightful reflexes and int to hit and dmg in assassin tree and call it a day - balanced, are wrong. That will never bridge the cap that dex to assassinate would create.

How about instead of devalidating Int assassins, where assassins should shine, Assassins get buffs that work regardless of int or dex based. See my last post for some such suggestions.


If they make those adjustments it should be fine for int assassins. I am not too worried about the defensive benefit - it's not a deal breaker as far as I am concerned. Freeing up a few AP opens up enough good options.

If they don't make those changes I would never consider anything but a dex based assassin which would invalidate int assassin as you say.

[slarden]

FYI, Mortal fear doesn't proc on bosses.

I know but I want the force damage against bosses. I use the same weapon against trash, but it's optimized as a boss beater.

[Nothingtoseehere]

If they make those adjustments it should be fine for int assassins. I am not too worried about the defensive benefit - it's not a deal breaker as far as I am concerned. Freeing up a few AP opens up enough good options.

If they don't make those changes I would never consider anything but a dex based assassin which would invalidate int assassin as you say.

even with those changes int would still have far less damage, assassinate DC and defences. Apart from the core flavour of an assassin (a cunning foe) there would be no purpose and no reason to take int it would still be that far behind.
You could reallocate 4 AP to another spot in harper tree but there isnt that much worth taking with them beyond what you would have already taken and you would get a feat back which provides some benefits but nowhere near enough to get back up to viable when you just became the weakest assassinate, dps and survivability Rogue out of dex and int.
I am unsure how you can't be concerned about the defensive benefit. Built right you can get a higher assassinate DC with better DPS (but not the best possible) with 98-100% dodge rating with 1 min uptime and 1 min downtime. Even if you don't take that path in favour of better DPS you will still have over 80% chance to reduce incoming damage by half when below 50% hp.

If you haven't seen this yet though I doubt me pointing it out again will make a difference, you will believe what you want to despite the evidence to the contrary.

[Ayseifn]

even with those changes int would still have far less damage, assassinate DC and defences. Apart from the core flavour of an assassin (a cunning foe) there would be no purpose and no reason to take int it would still be that far behind.
You could reallocate 4 AP to another spot in harper tree but there isnt that much worth taking with them beyond what you would have already taken and you would get a feat back which provides some benefits but nowhere near enough to get back up to viable when you just became the weakest assassinate, dps and survivability Rogue out of dex and int.
I am unsure how you can't be concerned about the defensive benefit. Built right you can get a higher assassinate DC with better DPS (but not the best possible) with 98-100% dodge rating with 1 min uptime and 1 min downtime. Even if you don't take that path in favour of better DPS you will still have over 80% chance to reduce incoming damage by half when below 50% hp.

If you haven't seen this yet though I doubt me pointing it out again will make a difference, you will believe what you want to despite the evidence to the contrary.

Can you show a decent build utilising this? You'll need to be in Primal Avatar, burn a tier 3 twist, take 8 levels minimum of rogue and then somehow get 23 dodge over the dodge cap.

Best I could come up with was 44% passive dodge with another 10 on the table from tier two Measure the Foe, absolutely rubbish build though that went all in on dodge and would suck as a tree.

[depositbox]

Rofl at the Coup is too good badsies. Show me how well your time is compared to dps classes, even with your no fail coup. Oh. Wait. What? It's slower than thf room clearers? Shocking!

So, in the most mob heavy quest your esteemed and deadly insta kill ability still puts you behind? Wow. Much OP. Such stronk.

[bbqzor]

I'd just like to add that I've seen barbarians do a MASS insta-kill spell. It is at least as powerful as the un-nerfed version of wail of the banshee.
No, its not.
- It requires pure 20 barb, so its not something you can compare pre epic like wail is at lv17, nor multi-class with an 18/2 build, etc
- Its save tops out around 60 (to put it another way, if you had 100 con, the save would be only 65), making it so-so on eh and meh on ee
- Its a fear based effect, a LOT of mobs are immune by virtue of immunity to fear
- It has a 6 mob cap, which is less targets than even nerfed wail, let alone old school versions
- It uses a rage, meaning this cannot be done more than a handful of times per shrine, unlike a spell

Thats not to say its not good. I hit it a couple times a quest in chains where it works, even on EE occasionally for the cc effect, but its not an "unnerfed wail". It looks flashy with all the graphics but its not all that. Its a decent capstone I suppose, after they finally got done messing with it. And its fun and unique. But original wail... not even close.


If you haven't seen this yet though I doubt me pointing it out again will make a difference, you will believe what you want to despite the evidence to the contrary.
Your evidence is terrible. In Orange:


Dex assassin:
Summary: Pros
-Higher DC at 76 with lesser investment
The DC is within 2-4 points of a comparable Int build, and as everyone has said all along thats expected. You not only include tensers to inflate this, but also Cartwheel charge, assuming to keep that up every 12s along with Measure the Foe every 10s. How, exactly, are you going to tumble, sneak, and scroll that often while still actually doing dps... youd lose so much uptime your relative dps will take a hit unless the party is stopping between every fight for you or something.

- Higher HP
The HP gains are minimal and basically result from LD. That would put an Int guy in SD or something at 830 by your count, which is more than adequate for most things. Frankly I think assuming any rog will fit in all that stuff you listed is a bit generous but whatever its your example.

-Higher dodge, up to 98/100%
The Dodge is over represented stating something like "up to 100%". An Int rog can have "up to 85%" with the proposed changes using the same short term stuff, and thats with zero AP in the TA tree. I hardly think going from 87 or 89% up to 98% is the same order of magnitude youre trying to imply here. All rogues will have crazy good dodge some of the time using their boosts, yes. Thats part of the general change package. The cited values are situational and largely meaningless, for the short duration they apply they are all effectively "really good" in play.

-Improved defensive roll with ~80% chance
Improved Defensive Roll is a help, yes. But its also not something thats a flat necessity. With the changes to Assassins Mark and the additional PRR in the tree, its quite likely you can clear 50 prr regardless of destiny. With the mob at -10 power, that means youre taking ~60% damage mitigation wise. Dropping that to 30% periodically when under half is a perk, but its also not something you would rely on. If youre under 400-450 hp on EE and getting hit, you need healing, like, immediately. Its far more likely those situations are the ones youre going to hit uncanny in and dodge it all until youre safe again. This isnt a "must have" its another "fingers crossed" save. Its basically like another dodge chance, all or nothing. Rogues have plenty of that elsewhere, and a little more helps but isnt night and day. It might mean you take 3-5 hits to take out instead of 2-3. Like a mob that hits for 500, would hit you for 300 under normal conditions, two hits would get you at 450 hp. With Improved Roll, it would be 3 hits, even if it worked 100% of the time. A little better but its not going to invalidate Int. Its just not that big of a change.

-Significantly more dmg, like triple or something silly
"Significantly more damage like triple or something"... okay from what? Dex 65 is roughly similar to what Int users run in their damage stat. You mention considering dropping KtA so theres that. Sure you get blitz, okay, any guy in LD gets that, sure. Wheres the "triple more damage" coming from. Its not from just swapping to Dex alone, and the portion from Blitz would benefit any one, Int, Dex or otherwise. So might need to clarify that figure. And how it meshes with all the stuff youre trying to run every 10-30s which takes animation time.

-At least as good if not better saves
Saves being better, yes. Also, likely AC, though that wasnt mentioned. Those are inherent benefits of Dex. Even if saves were the same, not needing Insightful Reflexes is a perk there, so yes. Saves and AC, Dex wins.


So what. In the end all Dex really did was let you into LD, because it didnt cost 3 assassinate DC from lost Int via stats in SD or something. Thats it. As a result you gained some hp and dps from LD, and could do enhancement points different to get more dodge, and another ability which basically kind of functions like more dodge. And then claim "triple dps" because blitz or something.

An Int guy in SD is going to be comparable on all that stuff. A little lower on hp/dodge from destiny/enhancement splits. But hes going to be a LOT stealthier, with Stealth Training II and Improved Invisibility available. It is just amazing what you can do at full speed with perm invis in a short window. Thats valuable. He will have much better synergy with the new Mechanic tree, providing some decent combat options now (if they get implemented well) including cc and a virtual party dps buff by reducing mob prr/mrr by 30 (thats like stacking damage boost on everyone, inc casters). And he will have different multiclass options available, for those that are into that.

Consider that carefully. Youll have a slight reduction in hp and dodge, while still having good EE level values at both. Instead you get a lot of unique stealth options, cc effects, and stacking party-wide dmg buffs. Of course, you only get blitz when in LD, but thats life for everyone, and its not like you cannot hop into it when you need it (say, a raid like FoT where theres just nothing to sneak or assassinate). Looking beyond blitz, I really dont think this is some one-sided call. Stealth, cc, party dps, thats a good set of tools too.

All of those are reasons why you might want to stay Int, or use Int in the future even if Dex were allowed. And running in blitz isnt something that you can only do when dex based. An Int guy could hop into blitz too, run the exact same setup, and get the same melee power. The only thing they would lose in this case is some assassinate DC. The rest of the values (hp/dodge/ref/ac) are all similar enough, and good enough, for both that people are going to pick their builds based on what they enjoy, rather than what is best. Thats good. Nothing here is so compelling that its going to take Int completely off the table like people are claiming. And thats without even considering future choices, where allowing both stats is far better than only one.

Look no one is saying dex wont have some gains. But its not going to sink the Int ship. Again:


Without one build that does EVERYTHING better, by a margin thats large enough to be clearly tangible in play, then no. Its not.

All this does is show that a dex rogue has some things it does better, and int rogue still has things it will do better, and that a blitzing rog does more dps than a regular one because of more melee power. I really dont think anything in that conclusion is news of any sort.

I wish someone had some obvious build that met that proof, or could prove the opposite, but I dont think there is one. Its just going to go back and forth and then get passed up and then in the future assassins will be out a whole lot of choices. Like assassin+tempest or assassin+ninja spy. Such is life, sigh.

[slarden]

Can you show a decent build utilising this? You'll need to be in Primal Avatar, burn a tier 3 twist, take 8 levels minimum of rogue and then somehow get 23 dodge over the dodge cap.

Best I could come up with was 44% passive dodge with another 10 on the table from tier two Measure the Foe, absolutely rubbish build though that went all in on dodge and would suck as a tree.

He is talking about using the clickies: Uncanny dodge + primal travel from primal avatar for bonuses that last 44 seconds out of 2 minutes. The treeman build is a very powerful build and that is effectively what it does - use displacement clickie then use dodge bonus clickie - go in a big mob and whirlwind, cleave, great cleave whatever and they will be dead by then using avatar of nature. Then when their clicky is cooling down they will come to the forum and complain the game is too easy and not rewarding enough lol.

There are many assumptions in his post and not all of it has to do with being an int build vs. a dex build and has nothing at all to do with assassinate. He is right that dex is alot better for dps which I was the first one in this thread to point out after Sev posted the proposal, but I would be happy to play my assassin like an assassin as an int build if they would kindly give int builds:

- insightful reflexes in the capstone
- int to hit and int to damage for free

If they do this I don't care if they give assassins dex builds. A dex build can do everything he is saying without assassinate anyhow and his sustainable dc is not better because he is counting short-lasting consumable buffs to get to his #.

I see treeman builds abusing primal avatar all the time clearing EE mobs with one whirlwind. I don't care it's a very boring and unchallenging build to play and I won't play it over my rogue just because it's better.

I am also not worried about defensive roll when I am between 20 and 50% because I only really get killed by the single big hits and I keep my health topped off all the time so that 20-50% range is rare for me. I really only care about no mercy in that tier. If I am below 50% I am jumping out of combat until I am back up again. If I get whacked by a champion with fortification bypass I am either below 20% after the hit or dead lol. Defensive roll isn't going to help me.

[slarden]

Rofl at the Coup is too good badsies. Show me how well your time is compared to dps classes, even with your no fail coup. Oh. Wait. What? It's slower than thf room clearers? Shocking!

So, in the most mob heavy quest your esteemed and deadly insta kill ability still puts you behind? Wow. Much OP. Such stronk.

I see bards using coup and then cleaving, great cleaving, etc. and single weapon fighting gives 30% attack speed. Swashbucklers are very good and very easy to build.

[slarden]

Dex wins

Alot of words in your post above but these 2 sum up the situation best.

[Nothingtoseehere]

Can you show a decent build utilising this? You'll need to be in Primal Avatar, burn a tier 3 twist, take 8 levels minimum of rogue and then somehow get 23 dodge over the dodge cap.

Best I could come up with was 44% passive dodge with another 10 on the table from tier two Measure the Foe, absolutely rubbish build though that went all in on dodge and would suck as a tree.

So is the No Mercy build bad since it requires a T3 twist? uses more than 8 rog lvls? and sits at a high dodge using some temporary but easy to obtain dodge? I never claimed it was top DPS infact I said you traded some DPS for Defences which you can obtain very high defences or DPS whilst maintaining a higher Assassinate DC. I think it would be perfectly viable and gave the base framework already but tweaks would need to be made. I came up with 48% dodge max of 49 dodge cap but I did it in a hurry due to time constraints and numbers may be slightly off.

[brzytki]

So is the No Mercy build bad since it requires a T3 twist? uses more than 8 rog lvls? and sits at a high dodge using some temporary but easy to obtain dodge? I never claimed it was top DPS infact I said you traded some DPS for Defences which you can obtain very high defences or DPS whilst maintaining a higher Assassinate DC. I think it would be perfectly viable and gave the base framework already but tweaks would need to be made. I came up with 48% dodge max of 49 dodge cap but I did it in a hurry due to time constraints and numbers may be slightly off.

It certainly is off in the Dodge/MDB/Dodge Cap department, because you add all you can get from both racial and acrobat tree, disregarding AP limit and even add Lithe twist. The limiting factor is MDB, it won't matter if all the dodge and dodge cap bonuses combined give you numbers in 45-50 range (standing, no short bursts that bypass the cap) when your MDB is significantly lower. The highest you can get is 37 (assuming 8 APs in halfling and Mobility item and i'd like to see where you'd put it), you could have 6 more from Lithe but it'd cost you a twist.

You are also forgetting that if you want to switch to robes and rely primarily on a miss chance you'll lose 28 PRR, which is big on a low PRR character, resulting in up to only 30 PRR if you have the gear. Your damage reduction drops from ~40% to ~23%. To get as high Dodge cap as you can (49), you have to put 8 APs in racial and the rest 31 APs in acrobat. Now, 49 Dodge cap assumes constant MtF, so cut 10 when it fades to 39 max. Next is Dodge, with Uncanny, item, Shadow Dodge and Nimbleness you have sustainable 30 Dodge. You don't have 5 more APs to invest in racial tree to get 3 more unless you drop something from other trees, like 2 max Dodge Cap from core 5 of acrobat, lowering your max dodge from 39 to 37. When MtF is up, you have up to 40 Dodge. That all combined means you definitely CAN'T jump into the mob and stay there for long, especially if you have agro, because you WILL get hit and when you do you will be hit significantly HARDER.

Unless of course you'll wait before every fight to have Uncanny Dodge off cooldown before you jump into the mob but that's just a boring playstyle and no one will be waiting for you.

If in LD, you'll have max 900 HP and 30 PRR more when blitzing (assuming you take Toughness 30 HP). If in Primal, you'll have max 830 HP (assuming you take Toughness 30 HP).

Anyway, you can have a similar build on live now with the only difference being a workable assassinate DC.

[Nothingtoseehere]

Your evidence is terrible. In Orange:



So what. In the end all Dex really did was let you into LD, because it didnt cost 3 assassinate DC from lost Int via stats in SD or something. Thats it. As a result you gained some hp and dps from LD, and could do enhancement points different to get more dodge, and another ability which basically kind of functions like more dodge. And then claim "triple dps" because blitz or something.

An Int guy in SD is going to be comparable on all that stuff. A little lower on hp/dodge from destiny/enhancement splits. But hes going to be a LOT stealthier, with Stealth Training II and Improved Invisibility available. It is just amazing what you can do at full speed with perm invis in a short window. Thats valuable. He will have much better synergy with the new Mechanic tree, providing some decent combat options now (if they get implemented well) including cc and a virtual party dps buff by reducing mob prr/mrr by 30 (thats like stacking damage boost on everyone, inc casters). And he will have different multiclass options available, for those that are into that.

Consider that carefully. Youll have a slight reduction in hp and dodge, while still having good EE level values at both. Instead you get a lot of unique stealth options, cc effects, and stacking party-wide dmg buffs. Of course, you only get blitz when in LD, but thats life for everyone, and its not like you cannot hop into it when you need it (say, a raid like FoT where theres just nothing to sneak or assassinate). Looking beyond blitz, I really dont think this is some one-sided call. Stealth, cc, party dps, thats a good set of tools too.

All of those are reasons why you might want to stay Int, or use Int in the future even if Dex were allowed. And running in blitz isnt something that you can only do when dex based. An Int guy could hop into blitz too, run the exact same setup, and get the same melee power. The only thing they would lose in this case is some assassinate DC. The rest of the values (hp/dodge/ref/ac) are all similar enough, and good enough, for both that people are going to pick their builds based on what they enjoy, rather than what is best. Thats good. Nothing here is so compelling that its going to take Int completely off the table like people are claiming. And thats without even considering future choices, where allowing both stats is far better than only one.

Look no one is saying dex wont have some gains. But its not going to sink the Int ship. Again:



All this does is show that a dex rogue has some things it does better, and int rogue still has things it will do better, and that a blitzing rog does more dps than a regular one because of more melee power. I really dont think anything in that conclusion is news of any sort.

I wish someone had some obvious build that met that proof, or could prove the opposite, but I dont think there is one. Its just going to go back and forth and then get passed up and then in the future assassins will be out a whole lot of choices. Like assassin+tempest or assassin+ninja spy. Such is life, sigh.


My evidence is not terrible, you just don't like it.

The summary shows the maximum Assassiante DC, but right below it was a full breakdown with the temporary stuff listed clearly, I am not going to write up full breakdowns multiple times. Typically I would report it with no temporary bonuses, including MtF, but everyone else has been reporting with so I am going with the standard in the thread. Those bonuses however are nto something you would keep up. You would hit them when you need the extra DC and definitely not mid combat as that would be silly. Here is the 'permanent' number then 68+5 MtF. Which will mostly do you just fine, but if you need the extra boost you have options that are easily available and take only moments to implement, I wouldn't consider cartwheel charge worth the AP on the build but put it as an option for a max value sort of thing but tensers is a readily available +2 DC clicky you can hit for anywhere you have difficulty.

Hp gain may be from LD but it is still a gain, no? It was one example build, not everyone will build exactly that or anything, that was the things I fit in on a quick rough build.

Sure an Int rog can get up to 85% dodge, but that is highly temporary and not the focus but rather a side effect. It is possible to build so that you are running almost 100% dodge at least 50% of the time. Since it was a build design goal and something it would be using more often than not I reported this. Trying to say that its the same as using uncanny dodge when its off timer is the same is flat out wrong. Maybe I didn't say what I was doing very well, if so I apologise for any confusion.

Improved Defensive roll is a help and part of the build I chucked together. Saying that you personally don't think it is of any use is fine, your entitled to your opinion but I disagree completely with your premise. On the build your virtually uninhabitable so that does reduce its benefit somewhat but that has nothing to do with other damage reducers.

More DPS. Well the tripple was clearly a random figure I pulled out of the air to give my point more meaning, I thought this was clear, my apologies. The significantly more is from where I would make an Int rog after these changes and is close enough to many of the builds on the forums that I didn't see the need to write it up. I would put an Int assassin in SD and a Dex in LD, depending but this one is LD so lets stick with that. Taking Dex lets me change to that ED so it is a damage boost from going Dex. Refer to above for all the 'temporary stuff I am permanently keeping up'. As for the actual numbers, feel free to crunch them, I don't have the time but they are clearly significantly higher. The tripple was light-hearted and a clear over exaggeration. 1.5 or 2X is probably mroe like the actual if you want a figure but I recommend calculating it yourself since you still wouldn't believe me even if I did.

Sorry I didn't mention AC, people have been criticised int his thread already for mentioning it since it doesn't do much, so I skipped it as it was irrelevant to the convesation unless they do an AC overhaul. And maybe it is a given of Dex but I would be misleading if I didn't include that as it is a bonus of the build that is 'big' enough to warrant mentioning.


In the end dex let me get at least = if not better an Int DC whilst gaining large amounts of damage and better defences. You seem to think this is nothing which I am struggling to understand why.

An Int Assassin in SD will have a comparable Assassinate DC and slightly better sneaking sure but not too much since Dex will hit better hide/ms scores, though Dex can easily get higher DC at almost no cost whilst Int has traded some survivability and damage for it. Sneaking at full speed is certainly fun but hardly necessary and with Acro speed boost standard sneak speed will move up a little too. I haven't looked much at the new mech tree due to time constraints and not being out when I posted the build but I don't see much except traps that I would want there which I listed as a possible way to spend AP since not everyone is into those. Which I would be taking on Int or Dex.

You seem to be getting caught up on blitz as the basis of your argument, so switch over to crusader and it still works basically the same, you might loose some damage or a negligible amount of hp and you gain other things such as better self healing. The point is you will have a better DC, HP, dodge, damage, stealth skills (not necessarily better stealth in total but), etc. Same CC, same party DPS, or possibly better depending on choices (Where is this -30 PRR/MRR I seem to have missed it and can't mind where it is?).

I'm wouldn't necessarily switch to Dex since the flavour of the whole class is in the Int so I would try stick it out if they put this nightmare through but in the end I think I would go over to Dex simply because it is better at everything except for sneaking maybe which it is good enough at to not matter. Falling from one of the top Rogues on my server to right down to the bottom just because I stuck with an Int build is most off-putting to say the least.
Sure Int can run in LD if they wanted but would you use it as your main ED on an Int build? or just situationaly such as FOT? You would still come up shorter on dodge, and reflex and AC but your HP would probably be a little ahead and your damage would be less. The numbers an Int build could hit are passable sure but why use them when you could boost all of them by dropping int and also bump your will save - the weakest point.

They will not be similar or comparable. People say X class can't have Y since it treads on Z classes toes. Well this is a case of X can't have Y since it completely eclipses and will replace Z. I want to play an Int based assassin but if Dex to assassinate DC went through I would feel I couldn't since it would be so much worse at everything that was what I worked hard on to make my Int assassin the best of the best at, you say build diversity I say if anything it lessens build diversity, not to mention fun.
There is plenty of compelling evidence that show just how much better dex would be than Int but you don't want to see it or believe it. Instead you want to nitpick every little detail that might be accidently off or a clear and intentional over exaggeration for effect which kinda suggests you see what I am saying but don't want to admit it.

As to considering future updates, that isn't something that we can really do in DDO, in an ideal world sure but in DDO nope. Relying on future balancing to bring somethign back down again isn't something we can afford to do or let through since it could be years if ever before that pass is added. and I can just as easily and truthfully say that there will be no synergies with X as you could say that will be.

If you don't think any of the things I gave the build are things of use or you don't like them it just frees up slots to get other things that add power in a different way.
The build I posted was very rough and I tried to put 2 builds in 1 sorta thing there which was a bad idea probably but I was short on time and some things may have also gotten a little mixed up due to that but the point still stands that Dex wins anyday.

I respectfully disagree and I profusely apologise if anything I say might be taken disrespectfully. I am just concerned about the future of my favourite class and might become overly expressive sometimes.

P.S. @ slarden Thanks for clarifying some of what I garbled out there :) Though don't forget Meld Into Darkness for +100% clicky and gets you 69 seconds in a row if you hit in right order with about a min to get ready to hit them all again. I was intentionally being vague around the dodge concept which led to excess confusion, sorry everyone.
Though it is all about Dex V Int on assassinate. A dex assassin could do all of that with a good assassinate DC even if by going that path a different build might suit it more and is nothing like the traditional assassin playstyle.
I also wouldn't play that "100%" dodge build either probably but it is certainly a good build that any dex based asssassin could go with and I thought it was worth mentioning.

[Nothingtoseehere]

It certainly is off in the Dodge/MDB/Dodge Cap department, because you add all you can get from both racial and acrobat tree, disregarding AP limit and even add Lithe twist. The limiting factor is MDB, it won't matter if all the dodge and dodge cap bonuses combined give you numbers in 45-50 range (standing, no short bursts that bypass the cap) when your MDB is significantly lower. The highest you can get is 37 (assuming 8 APs in halfling and Mobility item), you could have 6 more from Lithe but it'd cost you a twist.

You are also forgetting that if you want to switch to robes and rely primarily on a miss chance you'll lose 28 PRR, which is big on a low PRR character, resulting in up to only 30 PRR if you have the gear. Your damage reduction drops from ~40% to ~23%. To get as high Dodge cap as you can (49), you have to put 8 APs in racial and the rest 31 APs in acrobat. Now, 49 Dodge cap assumes constant MtF, so cut 10 when it fades to 39 max. Next is Dodge, with Uncanny, item, Shadow Dodge and Nimbleness you have sustainable 30 Dodge. You don't have 5 more APs to invest in racial tree to get 3 more unless you drop something from other trees, like 2 max Dodge Cap from core 5 of acrobat, lowering your max dodge from 39 to 37. When MtF is up, you have up to 40 Dodge. That all combined means you definitely CAN'T jump into the mob and stay there for long, especially if you have agro, because you WILL get hit and when you do you will be hit significantly HARDER.

Unless of course you'll wait before every fight to have Uncanny Dodge off cooldown before you jump into the mob but that's just a boring playstyle and no one will be waiting for you.

Anyway, you can have a similar build on live now with the only difference being a workable assassinate DC.

Use robes and ignores the MDB as I said you would have to for that particular option, you will almost exclusively be running those dodge bonuses in combat and sneaking for 1 second every 10 isn't hard even with aggro. Eventually a hit will go through yes, which is where Improved defensive roll comes in for incase 2 get through since you have enough HP that mostly 1 hit wont be much of an issue except on the really nasty champ combos in which case the PRR usually won't help you anyway.

I thought it was fine in the AP department but I didn't look too hard, though worst case it becomes 96 dodge which is still very high.

Waiting for CDs won't be much of an issue due to how many you have except for long fights, which depending on the fight or quest you could switch to either light armour or different ED if you wanted to.

But I am not interested in running that build (or the other which is why I am opposed to Dex change) and was a theory build I cobbled together in under 5 min so sure it will have issues due to lack of time spent on it but adjust numbers as needed for the odd mistake, the premise holds and it shows what it was meant to. Focusing on the odd irrelevant mistake is just a distraction from the thread and not really necessary, I am only Human :)

Sure you can do it similar on live right now but you can't have high assassinate DC too which was my point.

[brzytki]

Use robes and ignores the MDB as I said you would have to for that particular option, you will almost exclusively be running those dodge bonuses in combat and sneaking for 1 second every 10 isn't hard even with aggro. Eventually a hit will go through yes, which is where Improved defensive roll comes in for incase 2 get through since you have enough HP that mostly 1 hit wont be much of an issue except on the really nasty champ combos in which case the PRR usually won't help you anyway.
That's all good and well, but Improved Defensive Roll comes into play only when you are <50% and even then you'll have ~75% chance to negate half damage, not every time. That coupled with low PRR and lowish HP would make it risky, it would bring the times immediately after champs introduction when, though not often, but you could get one-shotted. And it wouldn't be only on champs because you don't have max HP in every second in the quest.


Waiting for CDs won't be much of an issue due to how many you have except for long fights, which depending on the fight or quest you could switch to either light armour or different ED if you wanted to.
How many you have? Uncanny Dodge, 1. If SD, Meld into Darkness (T3) but the whole point of the build is to move away from SD. If LD, none unless you use another twist. If PA, Primal Travel for 12 sec with minute cooldown (actually shorter duration if you don't interrupt tumbling).

Because we list all those builds someone might think the rogues would be overpowered. They wouldn't. They would just come closer to other classes in terms of DPS because they wouldn't be forced into Shadowdancer, which is a crappy destiny DPS-wise, anyway. Now on live, assassins have two options: 1) focus on assassinate and be forced into SD, doing subpar DPS or 2) disregard the core prestige ability and go for DPS only in Crusader or LD.

If the Shadowdancer was better, we wouldn't see such power gains. If its EPIC MOMENT wouldn't be such an insult and if SAs scaled better in epics, we wouldn't see assassins switching from SD to LD.

[slarden]

P.S. @ slarden Thanks for clarifying some of what I garbled out there :) Though don't forget Meld Into Darkness for +100% clicky and gets you 69 seconds in a row if you hit in right order with about a min to get ready to hit them all again. I was intentionally being vague around the dodge concept which led to excess confusion, sorry everyone.
Though it is all about Dex V Int on assassinate. A dex assassin could do all of that with a good assassinate DC even if by going that path a different build might suit it more and is nothing like the traditional assassin playstyle.
I also wouldn't play that "100%" dodge build either probably but it is certainly a good build that any dex based asssassin could go with and I thought it was worth mentioning.

I agree with Meld into Darkness although I think you meant 59 seconds, but you would need to swap out sense weakness. Sense weakness and no mercy together are really good, but yeah 59 seconds out of 120 with superman dodge is nice. It's not enough to get me to play primal avatar, but it's a great concept.

If I was playing a rogue in LD and had no mercy I would seriously consider meld into darkness instead of sense weakness as a twist if dex-based. That would be a higher priority to me than the improved defensive roll actually.

Improved uncanny Dodge + meld into darkness alone gives 35 seconds which is nice. I don't use those whenever they are off timer - I only use when in trouble and I think 35 seconds out of 2 min is enough - at least for me if I manage aggro propertly. Improved uncanny dodge is usually enough.

[bbqzor]

My evidence is not terrible, you just don't like it.

Its not my opinion you need to concern yourself over. Its the factual basis of your evidence. Which is, as pointed out, not good. Other posters have largely made further replies for me, but to highlight:
- changing to robes reduces prr/mrr significantly
- over reliance on dodge and improved defensive roll puts you into risking "1 shot" territory frequently
- retaining enough dodge effects impacts twist selection and enhancement choices
- only dps gain cited is melee power from destiny tree choice and independent of dex or int
- no dps gain from the stat change... cite one source of dps gain from stat change alone?


Here is the 'permanent' number then 68+5 MtF ... tensers is a readily available +2 DC clicky you can hit for anywhere you have difficulty.
Yep, same ballpark as Int, but slightly easier and/or higher. The biggest advantage dex offers is a slightly more favorable dc. Known quantity and easy to calculate, theres a very finite source of int and dex bonuses which Im sure the devs can add up too.


Well the tripple was clearly a random figure I pulled out of the air to give my point more meaning ... Taking Dex lets me change to that ED so it is a damage boost from going Dex ... if you want a figure but I recommend calculating it yourself since you still wouldn't believe me even if I did.
Id believe it if it wasnt pulled out of the air to purposely give an inflated sense of meaning. Even if some people can read between the lines, not everyone will, and any illustrative build points need to be demonstrably sound mechanically. The only dps change cited is from changing destinies. Anyone can change destinies, and the dps changes tied into them are largely self-evident to all. Really what you are getting at, is that a dex based character has an easier time using more destinies than an int based character, when that character is not a caster type or something. And while that is probably true (its not like Ive tried every permutation of either but sounds right I should think), it also doesnt mean that once dex is available it will completely eclipse int on that basis alone.


In the end dex let me get at least = if not better an Int DC whilst gaining large amounts of damage and better defences. You seem to think this is nothing which I am struggling to understand why.
Its not nothing, Ive said multiple times, in posting to you and elsewhere, that Dex will get an edge on DC, and probably slightly in dodge. You have not shown any damage increase not tied to a destiny change, which isnt really valid. Anyone could sit down and design an int-build knowing they were going to sit in some other destiny and wind up similar, save the already known and agreed upon dc issues. In fact, this is exactly what happens when int assassins on live do epic past lives in other spheres... I mean its literally cut and paste exactly what people do. And they do it fine. So what you are saying reads, to me, like "dex has a better dc, slightly more dodge, how is it not better" to which I reply, as I have been, well those are nice but Int has stuff too.

Look at something like swashbuckler... they can use dex or cha or int for damage. And I have seen all three get rolled into workable characters, one stat isnt really superior to the others. Ive played with swashs based on all three stats. In different destinies, with pretty radically different base setups. Theyre all cool. Why is saying dex has some better things throwing out that int is still totally viable and has its own gains? A couple DC mean that much to you? If thats the only thing being examined then yes, the DC is higher, the rest of the discussion is moot.



I haven't looked much at the new mech tree due to time constraints and not being out when I posted the build but I don't see much except traps that I would want there
It got posted about 7 hours before you posted, but Ill grant thats not the worlds largest window to check it out in. And traps are the sort of thing Int is very likely to have the advantage in, something like 10-15 dc more. That is a LOT of dc to leave on the table... I mean for 10 assassinate dc people would go bananas. Between slow, web, daze, and so on those are not junk abilities to lose dc on. I said (in that thread and will say here) that the implementation is important, if the changes take badly or make for bad play, this is diminished. But one has to assume the goal is to do it well, so that it will be useable, which means this is something youd want to consider not giving up.


(Where is this -30 PRR/MRR I seem to have missed it and can't mind where it is?).
Ooze flask in mechanic, requires 13 AP in the tree. Means no matter what dex combo you did, to fit it youd have to lose dodge cap, improved roll, or no mercy points. And the 10 points spent to unlock it would likely be minimally useful on a dex chassy, meaning high opportunity cost. An Int build can easily use the pre req points there, and walk away with a much larger gain (again, assuming it goes in right, that caveat applies to any change they do I suppose).


you say build diversity I say if anything it lessens build diversity, not to mention fun
I think given that one of your main points was that, as melees, dex characters can use destinies better than int characters... having dex there obviously opens build diversity. It gives you all the dex options on top of the int options. As for fun, I guess whats fun for some isnt fun for all. But being locked into one singular int option isnt any more or less fun than being locked into one singular dex option, in abstract. I think the choice of so many more options presents a more fun game than only one. But I make no claims that should be a universal truth, people will have fun with whatever they choose.


There is plenty of compelling evidence that show just how much better dex would be than Int but you don't want to see it or believe it.
Dont write off the points I admitted dex was better at. I even said so before you posted, several times. But I also do not recognize hyperbole like "triple the dps" without proof, nor do I ignore the strong points of Int. Wanting to see or not see isnt a factor here. But being real about whats on both sides of the fence is.


Instead you want to nitpick every little detail that might be accidently off or a clear and intentional over exaggeration for effect which kinda suggests you see what I am saying but don't want to admit it.
It suggests nothing of the sort. I dont want to see wild exaggerations or incorrect pairings distort the comparison. The devs know its complicated, they know they cant think of everything, so they threw it out. So far, no one has proven its so totally lopsided as to break anything. It may define a new "best", it may change some things up, and some things down, but its not breaking anything. And it doesnt change things so much that Int is off the table. Ive freely said Dex is better at some stuff, thats not me not admitting to what dex can get... but I do see a much different conclusion.


I respectfully disagree and I profusely apologise if anything I say might be taken disrespectfully. I am just concerned about the future of my favourite class and might become overly expressive sometimes.
No worries. I dont think you were disrespectful at all, and hope I am not sounding that way. I think everyone is concerned about the class. I think the DC formulas should just change to be less punishing, which then removes a lot of the pressure on dex vs int. Then they dont have to further punish assassins with their own unique itemization problem trying to fit a +DC item in (no other class has unique +dc items for enhancement based abilities... only assassins get that penalty, everyone else can use combat mastery or something), that is also a burden for the devs to design and include taking up reward space there as well.

I mean, no ones even talked about Shadow Dagger, lol. It got completely lost in the assassinate dc talk. But theres an ability that is basically a zero no matter what you do. Maybe it gets fixed somehow, who knows. As it stands, its an imperfect pass because the main abilities hinge on outlandish situations to make the DC work at all. But the tree as a whole is better, and works better with other trees. I think dex would be great, others think less so, fine. As long as its solid points, fine. Thanks for taking the time to discuss some stuff, even if we dont agree. Cheers.

[Nothingtoseehere]

Its not my opinion you need to concern yourself over. Its the factual basis of your evidence. Which is, as pointed out, not good. Other posters have largely made further replies for me, but to highlight:
- changing to robes reduces prr/mrr significantly
- over reliance on dodge and improved defensive roll puts you into risking "1 shot" territory frequently
- retaining enough dodge effects impacts twist selection and enhancement choices
- only dps gain cited is melee power from destiny tree choice and independent of dex or int
- no dps gain from the stat change... cite one source of dps gain from stat change alone?

...
Snip
...

I mean, no ones even talked about Shadow Dagger, lol. It got completely lost in the assassinate dc talk. But theres an ability that is basically a zero no matter what you do. Maybe it gets fixed somehow, who knows. As it stands, its an imperfect pass because the main abilities hinge on outlandish situations to make the DC work at all. But the tree as a whole is better, and works better with other trees. I think dex would be great, others think less so, fine. As long as its solid points, fine. Thanks for taking the time to discuss some stuff, even if we dont agree. Cheers.

Thanks I missed the ooze flask change, that is a nice option.

I freely admit I probably should have left of the triple in hindsight I was just in a hurry and didn't stop to think about it.

The dodge build was an aside to the main build I was throwing up and I felt the swaps may have been worth it, others don't that is fine. I will never find out since I will never build it :)

The overall damage gain from Dex stat alone, if pump dex to max cancels roughly with KtA I imagine but I would consider the more SA dice you could get, or No mercy or letting you switch to a higher DPS ED at no DC cost as DPS increase by stat swap.


No worries. I dont think you were disrespectful at all, and hope I am not sounding that way. I think everyone is concerned about the class. I think the DC formulas should just change to be less punishing, which then removes a lot of the pressure on dex vs int. Then they dont have to further punish assassins with their own unique itemization problem trying to fit a +DC item in (no other class has unique +dc items for enhancement based abilities... only assassins get that penalty, everyone else can use combat mastery or something), that is also a burden for the devs to design and include taking up reward space there as well.

I think the Int DC is in a good spot atm. If you invest it to max you can get no fail in hardest spots but you can still get a great DC for most content and deal with a fail chance in harder stuff if you aren't at max for any reason. I also like the flavour that assassination items bring since that is their focus, though really I think the epic/mythic veneer should have both had +4 assassinate DC and messed with other abilities on it so that Epic was usable but mythic was better.

No I don't think you are being disrespectful at all either. I was just tired and felt the post came off a bit.. harsher.. for want of a better word than I intended so wanted to make it clear I wasn't intending that.

[Bobby88888]

Hey everyone. Big wall of text incoming. Part 1 Dex v Int ideas. Part 2 further Dex v Int balancing and Assassin + Rogue balancing/bonuses.

Lets all take a step back and take a look at the situation:
We have 2 main camps. Camp 1. The Dex to Assassinate will add build diversity and 2. Dex will be too powerful all on 1 stat.

Now I am in camp 2. but agree with 1.
So how about as a community we try and come up with a solution that makes us all happy? If we can do this maybe we can get both Dex and Int on the table as rough equals.

So the way I see it this is what dex should have over int and int should have over dex and what should be about the same.

Int: Assassinate, Trapping/traps Dex: Survivabilty/defences Both: Damage and general utility, healing
*General utility is a good thing to shift around to the weaker of dex or int to bring it up

So We are looking at the fields of Assassinate, Traps, trapping, defences, damage, utility and heals

Heals: They are =and probably good where they are right now but just putting here for reference.

~Assassinate: So I say I think Int should be better here. Well what does this mean? I think that with investment that means you can hit 100% success rate. So where can we put Dex then? Either at somewhere around 75% success on highest saves or give int some other perk such as bypassing dw/db and or getting assassinates on orange nameds or maybe some other cool thing if someone suggests something.

So I am going to use Hassin Assassin here as the benchmark for a no fail Assassinate DC. 74 DC with 68 int though many people would probably skip the yugo and the twist so lets say 64 int for 72 DC as our Int build here. 18 base +6 tome +7 levels [+2 capstone +2 assassin +4 harper] enhancements +11 item + 3 ins +1 exc + 2 profane +2 shippy +6 ED
DC: 10 base +20 rog +6 ED +4 item +27 Int +5 MtF= 72

And our Dex build (a halfling) has Dex of 71:(20 base + 6 tome +7 levels [+2 capstone +2 assassin +5 acro +1 halfling] enhancements +11 item +4 ins +1 exc +2 profane + 2 shippy +6 ED + 2 yugo) *Most people would use a dex yugo however so I have included here, though it doesn't effect this too much.
This might not make sense yet but read on: Int: 16 base +6 tome +11 item +2 ins +1 exc +2 profane + 2 shippy = 40
Which would give a DC of 75. Now given my goal of Int being better that won't work. Which brings us to my proposed solutions.

Proposed Solutions:
1. If your Dex is higher than your Int you may add 1/4 of your Dex mod to your Assassinate DC.
So I put the int I think is reasonably achievable for a dex build above but the number we are looking at is around 40-44
DC: 10 base + 20 rog +6 ED +4 item + 15-17 int + 7 dex +5 MtF= 67-69. This may still be too high being only 3-5 DC behind but it needs to be balance carefully or dex assassinate will remain obsolete so no dex assassins will arise.
Another Way to do it here might be dropping that dex from capstone (no effect on DC I listed) and maybe adding another +2 Int in its stead giving 73 Int DC vs 67-69 Dex DC.
Keep in mind that a higher Dex does boost your hide and ms for second part of DC but usually wont play into it too much.
I was aiming somewhere in the 70% to 80% success rate on harder content But IDK if that is what I got there numberwise or if that is a good spot to aim since I don't know the threshold numbers. Does this area seem acceptable to you guys?

2. Add If your Int is higher than you Dex your Assassinate bypasses DW/DB and or orange named death immunity or some other cool perk you guys come up with.


~Survivability
-Dodge: Dex builds will get more dodge since they will most likely head up the Acrobat tree as their secondary supplement tree. This works well here I think.

-PRR: Not really a rogue thing so much and I think this part should stay =.

-Other miss chances: Again not rogue abilities so whatever you invest into them you get same return for both.

-Improved Defensive roll: Not readily available to Int but most Dex can get easy while in acro. I know some people don't put much stock in this ability but I think especially once you get improved version it is a very nice buffer.

-Saves: Only reflex really plays in here which will be a little higher naturally and is as it should be. Others should stay = given = investment.
NB: Insightful reflexes feat should have to be purchased always, never given for free.

~Damage:
Int has KtA and Dex will frequently have No mercy and possibly some bonus SA dice from racial tree. Even ignoring that Int has to invest a lot into harper for Int to hit and damage.
So step 1. Put int to hit and damage in first 2 assassin cores along with the dex, though no damage on all finessable weapons, only daggers and kukris for int. Harper still has lots of goodies and you will probably want the +4 int over there but I think that step is well needed. The int to hit and damage in harper will still see use by others but not assassins who rely on cunning so they should have int to damage.
Step 2. Well I still think there is some imbalance here but I am not sure how to go about rectifying that right now. Any suggestions?

~Trapping: More skill points with higher disable and search. Mostly wont matter too much but apparently ToEE has big traps with high DCs so maybe it will soon matter more. Dex gets better open lock but as people have said it isn't as useful and at any rate having better in 1 of 4 is fine I think

~Traps: I know this is Mechanic department but it Weighs in heavily on this discussion so I am putting it here.
Some traps this has no effect on being int or dex and some it does. supposedly. Perhaps die damage with a fraction of int mod or durations or say give web trapsa % chance to not be destroyed by fire = to int mod. Something to bump traps more over into the Int direction but still workable and worthwhile for Dex.

~Utility: So I have covered most of this under other titles already but there is still one or two.
-CC all comes from EDs and traps and favours Int builds via Daunting Roar and Web traps with slightly better DCs though Web traps will still work well for Dex based. In the end comes out roughly =.



Did I miss any major points?

What do you guys think? Any ideas there you want to improve on or replace? Where do you think the balance line between Dex and Int should lie?
If we can get a proposition together soon enough and present it as a unified group we may still be able to get Dex assassins bought back without eclipsing Int. I very much doubt we can come up with something that pleases everyone but if we make some compromises and work together maybe, just maybe, this can get pushed through.

Thanks :D

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is already a lengthy post so I apologise for that and for continuing.

This part relates to the 1st but isn't about Dex and Int balance but rather Assassin tree as a whole and boosts and Rogue as a whole. I think it ties in and don't want to do a new post so it is going on the end here :)

~SA:
Assassin - 8 die
Mech 4 die, 5 non repeating
Acro 0

With the new Mech tree it feels like they are trying to encroach on Assassin with their SA die and Assassin still could use a little more damage I think so I have a couple of ideas I want to put out there for this.

1. Add SA die to cores of Assassin. I am thinking either Core 1: You can 1 SA die for each core you have in this tree. That gets you to 14 SA die from assassin which Acros will mostly be going for Assassin's Trick (or so many say they will) so they will be able to hit 5 SA die on the way there with a 6th easy to grab. This is 3 more for them than before too. Mechanics will likely get a little bit of Assassin things too so they will be looking at a few more SA die as well but IDK how much.
Assassin - 8 to 14
Mech 4/5 to ~8/9?? (6/7 to ~8/9)??
Acro 2/3 to 5/6

Which may be a bit too much in Assassin? so
2. Add a SA die to selected cores, 1/3/5 or some other combo or just 1-5 point is not all of them. Since I haven't come up with specifics here no numbers

~Lethality: Logically Lethality comes up next. Vorpal is now a weak ability, 100 damage on a 100k hp mob is negligible. So put some form of critical multiplier for SA damage here. Either using weapon multiplier or a preset.
1. On vorpals your SA damage now critical hits using a) your weapon crit multiplier or b) for 2x damage or c) for 3x damage.

2. On Criticals your SA damage now critical hits using a) your weapon Crit multiplier or b) 2x or c) 2x on crits and 3x on vorpals

Couple of options there that all do similar things. say we have 250 SA damage.
1. a) we vorpal for 4x damage = 1k SA b) 500 SA dmage or c) 750 SA damage. Remembering on Vorpal only.
2. a) we crit for 3x damage = 750 SA and we vorpal for 1k b) Crit for 500 SA c) cirt for 500 SA and vorpal for 750 SA.

~Capstone: And where else next but the next core?
Above I recommended maybe +0 dex +4 int but I am not sure if 4 int is too much. The +2 dex on there however is too much I think. The reflex isn't overly good or needed I think but unless something goes on there enough to warrant dropping it leave it there.
1. Add scaling damage for MP on SA such as based on INT mod. If the damage from above between Dex and Int is too lopsided one way or the other using the Mod here is one way to push it back to central as it will be 25-30% vs 15-17% If discrepancy is still too large using half mod balances further to 13-15% vs 8-9% ofc numbers that small provide only a small DPS boost but we aren't trying to make the next Pally, barb or bard here, just balance within and give a small boost. I think this is a good way to try smooth out DPS between Dex and Int given above proposed changes.
2. Horizontal Power. Rogues are the masters of skill so more of a thematic bonus with some slightly usefull bits. a) +X to all class skills (X=say 2-4) or b) +Y to hide/ms/listen/spot, the tools of a stealthy assassin (Y= say 4-6)

The two options are not mutually exclusive.
Deadly Shadow: +2 int, +10 MP, +4 SA die + gain 1/4 of int mod as bonus scaling of MP on SA damage (Int build ~115%, Dex ~109%) + some small skill bonus for horizontal thematic bonus.


Thoughts? Opinions? Suggestions? This ties into the 1st half of post with more balancing for Dex and Int and a little bit of between trees. The main things are lethality and Capstone but the SA die also feels like Mech is getting a bit into our territory and would like to see a little more die available to assassins in resposne which can also boost mech and acro SA a little bit more but not as much while its happening.

Really sorry for the big big wall of text but I think that they are important ideas to put out to you guys so that we can look at the Assassin and Rogue and try to get it polished and get Dex back on the Table side by side with Int

Thanks all for your attention and I hope my spot skill is enough to see you ingame :O

[slarden]

Hey everyone.
<snip> to save space
...

Great post I am only snipping due to size.

I think all the theory-crafting confuses the issue.

The imbalance comes down to 2 basic things:

1) int-based assassins will need to take insightful reflexes in a feat-starved build
2) int-based assassins spend 4 extra action points and additionally have to go to tier 3 of the harper tree to take both int-to-hit and int-to-damage. This locks you out of tier 4 of the acrobat tree which has some really useful stuff - namely no mercy which can either be combined with sense weakness or replace it.

There are other differnces besides these and in total dex wins, but it's not by a huge margin. However, these 2 points are reasons I would always choose dex assassin if available. That is where the problem is - dex is always better.

If insightful reflexes was auto-granted in the capstone and int-to-hit and int-to-damage was autogranted in the core somewhere (even capstone) I think the major 2 issues are resolved.

Without these 2 balancing changes - dex should not be used as a stat in assassinate.

[Propane]

Note that our current internal build does *not* have a change to Assassinate to allow for a Dexterity based DC. That was a question to get feedback. As I read through the thread that might be too good?

Sev~

I agree - it would be too good - (ducks as things are thrown at me).

Too many ways to boost and stack - would put too much power into 1 stat...

[Bobby88888]

Great post I am only snipping due to size.

I think all the theory-crafting confuses the issue.

The imbalance comes down to 2 basic things:

1) int-based assassins will need to take insightful reflexes in a feat-starved build
2) int-based assassins spend 4 extra action points and additionally have to go to tier 3 of the harper tree to take both int-to-hit and int-to-damage. This locks you out of tier 4 of the acrobat tree which has some really useful stuff - namely no mercy which can either be combined with sense weakness or replace it.

There are other differnces besides these and in total dex wins, but it's not by a huge margin. However, these 2 points are reasons I would always choose dex assassin if available. That is where the problem is - dex is always better.

If insightful reflexes was auto-granted in the capstone and int-to-hit and int-to-damage was autogranted in the core somewhere (even capstone) I think the major 2 issues are resolved.

Without these 2 balancing changes - dex should not be used as a stat in assassinate.

Thanks, yeah It just seemed to be making things messy.

May I ask where you would make the balance point if you decided it and why you are ok with dex being better assassinaters than int?

To me the Assassin is cunning above all but I have nothing against letting Dex builds work, infact I'm for it, diversity and all that, but they shouldn't surpass Int when it comes to assassinate.

Completely agree with Int to hit and damage in cores though it doesn't do as much since you need to go harper still for int probably but it saves a few AP there and I think that is fair.
I like that you are coming up with the very simple solution for the problem but I think it needs more than that and I may be overcomplicating things in the process but I’m trying not to :)


Having thought some more, saying that you are a Dex build therefore you can't get 100% assassinate DC is not the way to go. If you go Dex and invest in it, it should work for you.
But if both get no fail DC then what is left for Int in terms of Assassinate to be better at.
IDEA: capstone: rather than insightful reflexes which Slarden proposed I counter-propose putting on capstone the ability for assassins to ignore DB for assassinate if your INT is higher than your Dex, also leting you assassinate EH/EE orange nameds^ if you have the DC.
#I considered DW too but think that is too much and reduces the strategic element in taking out the DW caster before they can cast it.
^provided wiki is right in saying they get given innate DB which is why insta kill immune.

What do people think?
Rather than limiting Dex reduce Ints limitations so their assassination has more versatility but equal power.

Capstone would look something like this:
Deadly Shadow: +4 to int*, +4 SA dice, +4 reflex saves and gain the feat ‘Assassination Master’ if you meet the requirements. (Assassination Master: Your Assassinate now counts as a Martial Death effect in terms of overcoming DB. Requires using Int to Assassinate DC.)

*Yes I switched the +2 Dex to Int in capstone there given some calcs I did below.
Implement as feat or hard coded as an enhancement, doesn’t matter.

Set assassinate DC at 10 + rog level + Int or Dex mod + other bonuses.

Numbers for Assassinate DC: Based on numbers changed capstone: +4 Int, +0 Dex.
Int: 18 base + 6 tome +7 levels [+4 capstone +2 assassin +4 Harper](+10) enhancements +11 item +3 ins +1 exc +2 profane +2 shippy +6 ED = 66 (28) **yugo +1 mod
Dex: 20 base +6 tome +7 levels [+2 assassin +3 Shadow dodge +2 acro +2 Halfling or Harper](+9) enhancements +11 item +4 ins +1 exc +2 profane +2 shippy +6 ED +2 yugo = 70 (30) ***Tensers +2 mod
DC:
Int: 10 base +20 rog +6 ED +4 item +28 Int +5 MtF = 73 ** 74
Dex: 10 base +20 rog +6 ED +4 item +30 Dex +5 MtF = 75 *** 77

** maybe yugo pots need a review and either up penalty on Dex or down it on Int but that I doubt will happen this update if ever.
*** Tensers creates an interesting case. See below.

Has this gone too far again but? Dex gets a marginally better DC by 2(4) but Int can bypass DB. I think this DC difference is passable then given the extra versatility Int assassins would get. Dex can have an easier time getting their DC but Int will be the master if they can get their DC there. Or is balancing the formula so Dex gets the ~75% success rate a better way to go?
Adding Dex is good for versatility and the game but only if done right. It will also help newer players get better DCs without all the stuff my sample builds here had. In that strain of thought is the Tensers bonus too much in the end?
Tensers: For new assassins it is good since helps make up for lack of gear but for established the +2 DC is too much I think.
1. Add +4 int to tensers – Helps new assassins
2. Add -2 assassinate DC to tensers
3. Add a similar but opposite style spell – Helps new assassins
4. Leave as is since bypassing DB is too much if DCs are too close. –Helps some new assassins
New spell (rough) sample: +4 int, con and wis (or cha) +2 to saves? (or dodge?) -2 to tactical feat DCs and doubles CD on tactical feats. Make it an arti spell.

Currently I think^ Dex isn't going through so if you want Dex added let’s work together on this and come up with an idea we all like (or no-one likes, sign of a good compromise :P ) to push to the devs, as a unified player base it may just work. Or we can just go OK no Dex, can't be balanced, and stop pushing for it to be done and done right.
^To my limited knowledge on the subject of what the Devs plans are, but basing on that it isn't going to Lam.

So what does everyone think?

[slarden]

May I ask where you would make the balance point if you decided it and why you are ok with dex being better assassinaters than int?


The feat is a critical difference on a feat-starved build. Auto-granting it in the capstone completely eliminates the balance issue there.

There are many trade-offs with AP swings between Harper, Racial and the other rogue trees. Ignoring exotic biuld concepts for a minute, whether you are dex or int based you are likely going to go with 8 pts in harper tree for KtA.

Prior to Harper tree I was into tier 4 of the thief acrobat tree with a little bit in the sun elf racial tree for emergency self-healing. That cost me 1 to my assassinate vs. mechanic tree, but as a sun elf I was already at +2 since my int started at 20 and I had 2 int in the racial core. Overall the acrobat tree was good enough to give up the 2 int esp since to hit and damage were dex base then.

With the addition of harper tree it was an obvious replacement for most of my acrobat-tree spend, but it came at a cost of losing no mercy. I don't value improved defensive roll as much as others and likely wouldn't take it.

Much has been brought up about trapping which is a non-issue. The bottom line is that int and dex are both good stats for a rogue. My disable is currently at 104 when I swap on manual of stealthy pilfering and cast GH on myself so losing 4 int from starting stat, 4 from ED, 7 from level ups and 8 from enhancements my disable drops from 104 to 92 which is currently at a no-fail with the +5 bonus I get from thieve's tools. If needed I can swap on tinker's goggles which costs me 1 int adding +4 disable overall so I am at a 101 disable with the bonus from thieve's tools and tinker's goggles as a dex build. If I make 2 gear swaps instead of 1 my search is at 106 as an int build and 94 as a dex build which is currently no fail.

The real problem though in temple of elemental evil with randomized traps is spot because wisdom is a dump stat for most rogues and +6 wis greensteel doesn't really fit what a rogue needs most. I am at a 79 with my existing gear and GH which I think is good, but may not be enough for the newer content- I don't know. So if that is not enough my options are to drop 2 int from shadowdancer for +7 to spot,disable, open, search which would likely negate any boost in int skill requirements. If that doesn't work there is a twist and greensteel swapping as options. Either way, I am likely to boost my int skills to boost my spot so if ToEE traps requires as high DC as people think, my search and disable will likely get some boost as I boost my spot. So trapping is a complete non-issue - there are many ways to address it.

So overall I think freeing up the feat slot and freeing up 4AP to balance int builds with dex builds solves the majority of the issues. The other differences are largely minor and the fact that you can boost your dex but not int while going deep into acrobat isn't an issue to me. The easy temporary dex boosts also don't bother me that much either. They are all positives, but int builds have some positives as well. To me it's only the feat and 4 AP that makes dex the clear winner. If you balance the tree to account for those 2 issues, giving the option of dex and int builds seems like a good idea. I don't think it's a good idea to add dex as an assassinate stat with no balancing though. There would be no reason to ever make an int build.

Also realistically I like the idea of both options and if the balance issues can't be addressed simply they will just scrap the whole idea. Allowing dex-based assassins would open up assassin to more people and make it more new-player friendly since dex is easier to work with. Still, it shouldn't be done without some easy-button balancing.

If you do want to go into trapmaking they will be no-fail either way if you take improved traps so it's not an advantage for either build. It only takes 8 AP to take the top tier of improved traps. It will be compelling to spend 8 pts here since Sev acknowledged that magical traps will use the disable skill and the existing situation on live is WAI. DC is supposed to be 10 + spell level + int modifier which is useless of course.

[Dreppo]

Here is where you don't understand. Let's take a human rogue (not halfling or drow). You are spending 41 APs in assassin, 3 in racial and 24 in Harper to get 9 INT, leaving 10 APs to spend elsewhere. And you can't get any more INT from enhacnements because you are missing 2 APs if you'd want to get +1 INT from mechanic. Now, DEX one spends 41 APs in assassin, 3 in racial and 16 APs in acrobat to get the same ability mod as INT one. That leaves you 20 APs. Those 20 APs can get you 4 more DEX from Harper and acrobat!!

Your math is slightly off, specifically the statement "DEX one spends 41 APs in assassin, 3 in racial and 16 APs in acrobat to get the same ability mod as INT one". With this expenditure you only get 8 DEX (4 from assassin, 1 from racial, 3 from acrobat), one less than the 9 INT (4 from assassin, 1 from racial, 4 from harper). Now once you spend your remaining APs to pick up 4 more DEX (2 from acrobat, 2 from harper), you'd have 12 DEX vs 9 INT.

The difference of 3 is explained by the 3 DEX from Shadow Dodge. It's really as simple as that, no need to make it more complicated. If Shadow Dodge didn't exist, then the available DEX/INT enhancements would be mirror images of each other, available for the same costs at the same levels of investment.

[redoubt]

Scrolling tensors all the time has it's own opportunity cost, it's something you're doing instead of DPS or sneaking or assassinating... it's also knocking you out of sneak mode when you cast it which is a net loss for DC... So unless you're one of the top players in DDO I suspect Tensors scrolls can be safely tagged with the "Forum Version of DDO Bulls*** flag" for considering them as an "always on +3 to Assassinate DC" OR for always on DPS (on a Assassin at least).
.

Tensor's is easy. I do it on my paladin often. If we are running (note running) up to a hard fight, I hit:
1. displace clickie
2. haste clickie
3. TENSOR'S scroll
4 divine might
5. DC zeal (about the time I get to the fight)
6. consecration

Its not that hard. Do it a couple seconds earlier on a rogue so you can drop to sneak and pick up MtF.

[brzytki]

Your math is slightly off

Yes, you are right. My mistake but it doesn't change much in the point of the post.

[IronClan]

Haha, so I noticed others have already pointed out that you can't read breakdowns much, but since your post is clearly directed at me I couldn't help but respond. Bolded part of your post specially for you, so you can read it again and think about it before your open your mouth again.

I don't know who you are, and I'm 100% sure my post wasn't directed at you.

I for one think it's a **** shame that Sev is going to make a design choice almost entirely because Tensors scrolls can be UMD'ed when to counter that all he would need to do would be put +4 INT into the capstone (like almost all the other new Capstones have) and delete the +2 Dex he is currently planning on putting in there.



Here is where you don't understand. Let's take a human rogue (not halfling or drow). You are spending 41 APs in assassin, 3 in racial and 24 in Harper to get 9 INT

Why Human as opposed to Morninglord?

I'd like to see how it's easy to have 200 without trying. You have max 150% from gear (Epic/Mythic Minos, not really ideal for a rogue) or 130% from TF armor. To compensate for Yugo you HAVE to twist Brace. That costs you a twist, obviously.

You know how few Mobs even bypass 100% fort? Or 150%? Almost every character I have without trying has 150-200% The truth of course in REAL DDO is that almost no one uses Yugo pots, as evidenced by the complete lack of Amrath LFM it is therefore a real pain in the a** when game design is dictated by something few people actually bother with. Cue "well I use Yugo pots so everyone ese must be using them".

Not really an attack, it lasts for 12 sec though and to get 1 more DC for 1 AP is quite good, even if you have to tumble once every 12 seconds. Not so irrelevant.

You're right I confused it for a Staff attack, I was wrong.

So now you're spending 31 Points in T/A to get it, 3 AP in race for 1 DEX and have a whole 5AP left after 41AP in Assassin tree. So you're not getting KtA which means you're losing at least 7 base damage to get +1 DC for 12 seconds after you tumble... Is this the part where DEX would be OP?

No one said you'd have perma Tensors. Stop putting your words in our mouths.

No one said it, but that hasn't stopped some of you (not necessarily you, the first two posts I've read of yours that I recall were today) from leaving it as an unstated assumption, implying that scrolling tensors constantly is like permanent +6 DEX, that comment is directed at those who are glossing over this, to them I say stop ignoring that it knocks you out of sneak and stop pretending you only ever play the same quest over and over so you can memorize exactly when you're going to need to hit your scroll fix right before you sneak. This is blatant Forum DDO, not even 2% of the player base is going to maintain such a clunky mechanic perfectly with Scroll/Stealth/MtF butting heads every time you don't remember to hit a scroll before you get to a fight, OR don't hit a scroll because you didn't know you were going to run out mid fight. And then also the slow down of sneak mode in there adding urgency to get to your target before the melee's kill everything.

In real DDO the first step you'll skip/forget will be hitting that scroll.

But here's the thing. You don't have to buy all the DEX enhancements from TA and Harper because you'd end up with a DC that is higher than you need.

This is true of max INT as well in 99.999% of content, and is why some Assassins already run in LD instead of SD, I've already noted that a DEX based can scroll +3 DC as a tradoff. I don't see a problem with this, and I DO see a problem with the Dev's deciding to not implement something because a bunch of wolf crying about how OP DEX would be.

INT as a best DPS only if both stay in SD and as we can see by going DEX you can have the same (or -1 DC) as INT one, which still would be almost no-fail in the toughest content, while in LD. Doing much more damage. It all comes down to this: give me an INT build and i'll convert it to DEX build that has higher similar DC and higher DPS.

Do you not agree that we are already down to DEX versus INT being a tradeoff? That would be balanced a little better by simply making the Capstone 4 INT and no DEX. People who hate short buffs and/or the clunky drop you out of stealth mechanic (and they are many) will choose INT (and would chose it even if the capstone remains +2 +2) and people who love to juggle clickies will choose DEX... This is EXACTLY how they should design stuff. More skill ceiling, more choices, not less.

We've gone from:

"DEX is like triple the damage lel !!!!!!!!1111"

To even the opposition admitting:
"INT as a best DPS only if both stay in SD"

You say only if you stay in SD like that's not what a tremendous number of assassins will do... Yes as I've already noted LD is also popular (already even with only INT) and would remain totally viable for INT based assassins. because of course they don't need Max DC in all content CURRENTLY, even with INT. This wont change with DEX as an option... A tremendous number of players will also have zero interest in scrolling Tensors to get 3 more Mod and tumbling every 12 seconds and having the equivalent to 78 STR for melee DPS, instead of having KtA and the quivelent to 95-100 STR for melee DPS.

DEX as an option is balanced by making the Capstone +4 INT* with no DEX, it's that easy. And that is how close they are to already being a balanced option.

* This is where someone accuses me of wanting to get 2 more INT for more Know the Angles, as my motive to want DEX as a choice LOL

[jaggyjag]

Hi and welcome to our magical land!

You will see many wondrous things here, dragons, wizards, Demi-gods and Demons, battles across multiple worlds! You will even see clever folk who can make magic work like a machine call Artificers!

But there is no doubt that the most amazing and surprising aspect of our world that you will encounter is our brotherhood of Assassination!

Not for us, is the killer who stalks his target in stealth and silence, sneaking up to catch them unaware to deliver that fatal blow never seen coming.... OH NO! Not here, that is just not on!

No, no! not here! no because here our one touch Assassins sing! and dance! for there targets first! before killing them! heck they may even slap their target first or knock him over! only then when they are singing, dancing, slapping, slamming and making a all around spectacle of them selves will they reach out and kill their foe with one shot!! that's right, no stealth or sneaking, no surprise just a great show and a one touch kill!!! how great is that?

Bet you don't have anything like that in Greyhawk do you???

What's even better? well for another thing our "Assassins" don't have to shift between stances or any of that rubbish, they just run along and singing and slaying! what is even better is that they don't even have to prep their target! if someone else happens to trip or stun the foe our super duper musical "Assassins" can just kill them with one touch while running by!! how amaaaaaazing is that?

But wait! there's more! Not only can our musical "assassins" do that, they are also Killer snipers and superior to shadowdancers as well! how great is that?

Don't believe me? well look at this! if they come upon a prepped targets they can kill with one shot from range if they want to train that way! and guess what? if they line up a few mobs that they sang for previously they can kill multiple mobs instantly with one throw!! even 4 or 5 with planning! Show us some stupid old style Assassin from D&D that can do that right!? How cool!!

And the best part!!! all our singing Assassins have higher DC's then the boring old Assassins, much much higher!

See here in our world the Singing Assassins base their Assassination DC on a skill score, while the old fashion Assassins base theirs on level and attribute! which creates a incredibly lower DC number!! neat huh?

What is really great is that the Gods of our land here, the mighty mighty Turbine have decided to leave it that way even though they are changing the old Assassin tree, cool eh? They decided that only our Singing Assassins (Bards) will get a skill based DC, which can be elevated to DC scores so high that they are impossible for the attributes style of the non-singing assassin to achieve, twice as high in many cases! twice!!! how cool!

So even though some people prayed to the mighty Turbine to make it consistent and use a skill based DC for the non-singing assassins as well, nothing is going to change!!! yippee!!!!

So the land of DDO will still have the best Assassins in all the worlds, and they are called Bards!!

Our Superduper Singing Assassins will continue to dominate the instakill while still being able to heal, cast, buff, and use more UMD!!! how cool eh!!!

So the rest of those worlds can keep their boring silent sneaky assassins, who have to prep to do a kill shot that has a DC score that is only half of what our Singing Assassins can achieve. Because DDO land is the world of the Singing Assassins!! Bards!!

[FlaviusMaximus]

Rofl at the Coup is too good badsies. Show me how well your time is compared to dps classes, even with your no fail coup. Oh. Wait. What? It's slower than thf room clearers? Shocking!

So, in the most mob heavy quest your esteemed and deadly insta kill ability still puts you behind? Wow. Much OP. Such stronk.

He's right. With the armor changes, self healing, and class changes, it's all about DPS (aoe at that) since characters can stand in the middle of hordes of mobs and cleave, cleave, cleave things down. Coup is irrelevant in this discussion. As long as Assassinate can work and it still can hit two targets regularly, it's good. Maybe it needs a slight bump in DC, but it just doesn't matter if it can hit 80 or 100 as long as it works. The bottom line is that neither instakill ability is really that strong in today's game.

What I think is a big problem, is that rogues have to sit out sections of combat if they want to get their DCs up. Sneaking to charge up DCs is something that really doesn't work out when there are barbs and paladins sitting in the middle of the room cleaving everything to death while an Assassin potentially sits out five out of every fifteen seconds of combat. I'm surprised so many people in this thread are OK with that mechanic.

I do think the meta-gaming approach to DDO where one basically only plays a sorc or whichever record speed aoe dps class is currently dominant because all else is a "gimping" that can only lead to ridicule in one's own sad, insecure microcosm of a guild, is a good way to play oneself right out of the game, since creativity and options are completely removed, but one can't ignore that game mechanics have changed enough that complaints over something like coup are a bit silly.


snip

The thread in the general forum wasn't enough?

[slarden]

DEX as an option is balanced by making the Capstone +4 INT* with no DEX, it's that easy. And that is how close they are to already being a balanced option.


It's not that simple int assassins would end up one feat less due to insightful reflexes and the loss of 4 AP. Those are huge handicaps that need to be addressed.

If they address those 2 things in the capstone it will be balanced enough. There would be no reason to play an int assassin otherwise. They are effectively turning assassin into a dex build which is the wrong approach.

[jaggyjag]

Coup is irrelevant in this discussion.


That is so wrong on multiple levels, and I would appreciate if you would stop pretending to be obtuse about it.

Coup is Assassinate, with higher DC's, ranged options, much wider contitions, and much easier to achieve DC numbers.

If you want to stand in the middle and cleave mobs, fine. Go play a fighter type, this thread is about ASSASSINS.

The discussion on the mains is of a different nature than the discussion here, there many people were and continue to be unaware of the Assassin problems with the pass because they are not the rules-wonks we are in this thread. It can only help to have as many interested parties aware and involved when passes are involved. Sorry if you didn't figure that out.

[jaggyjag]

It's not that simple int assassins would end up one feat less due to insightful reflexes and the loss of 4 AP. Those are huge handicaps that need to be addressed.

If they address those 2 things in the capstone it will be balanced enough. There would be no reason to play an int assassin otherwise. They are effectively turning assassin into a dex build which is the wrong approach.

Exactly! thus far we are just looking at a dex built dps class not a Assassin. Ironically the real Dex built dps machine? Swashbuckler.

At this rate we will end up with cut rate swashbucklers for dps and Assassinate.

[redoubt]

You say only if you stay in SD like that's not what a tremendous number of assassins will do... Yes as I've already noted LD is also popular (already even with only INT) and would remain totally viable for INT based assassins. because of course they don't need Max DC in all content CURRENTLY, even with INT. This wont change with DEX as an option... A tremendous number of players will also have zero interest in scrolling Tensors to get 3 more Mod and tumbling every 12 seconds and having the equivalent to 78 STR for melee DPS, instead of having KtA and the quivelent to 95-100 STR for melee DPS.



When Divine Crusader was introduced I was on an INT based assassin that looked very much like CThru's Hassan. I jumped over to DC (still INT based) and found that in today's fast paced zerg style, that I was more effective and did better damage by staying in DC and just not bothering with assassinate at all (note: this was before INT to damage.)

If I could get a good assassinate DC without running in Shadow Dancer, I would move to DC or LD. So that is one. That said, two easy things to make the introduction of DEX to assassinate be an actual option builder:

1. INT to hit/damage in the assassin cores (same place as dex.)
2. Insightful reflexes in the cores. Could be at 18 or 20, I think.

Doing this would prevent either one from being so superior as to relegate the other to "flavor" only.

[Bobby88888]

That is so wrong on multiple levels, and I would appreciate if you would stop pretending to be obtuse about it.

Coup is Assassinate, with higher DC's, ranged options, much wider contitions, and much easier to achieve DC numbers.

If you want to stand in the middle and cleave mobs, fine. Go play a fighter type, this thread is about ASSASSINS.

The discussion on the mains is of a different nature than the discussion here, there many people were and continue to be unaware of the Assassin problems with the pass because they are not the rules-wonks we are in this thread. It can only help to have as many interested parties aware and involved when passes are involved. Sorry if you didn't figure that out.

Assassinate should be the best insta kill in the game but the DC is in a good spot right now. With investment you get it good, going coup path would ruins the ability.
So to make it best in the game it needs other ways of doing this besides making the DC irrelevant; such as ignoring DB, possibly a hide/ms bonus on MtF (you observe your enemies and how best to slip in and out unnoticed), etc. Adding ranged to it doesn't work with the ability and the DC boost is absurd, please stop going on about Coup DC and propose solutions that keep Assassinate DC relevant but also boost the versatility of the ability.
The innate protection of DB works for most things but the blade of a skilled Assassin can slip through even the chinks of the magical armour, but DW is a more powerful version of the spell and will stop the killing blow still.
That sort of thing, let Coup have its default auto success DC, but don't add more that just isn't healthy for the game and isn't much fun to play.

Thanks

[redoubt]

Lethality: Any sneak attack that also counts as a vorpal strike (attack roll of 20 followed by critical confirmation) that you make will kill most living targets.

I don't know the exact mechanic on this, but if it mirrors normal vorpal, it needs to be improved. i.e. make it improved vorpal and scale the damage with 200-300 melee damage.

[redoubt]

With regard to Coup de Grace...

Add to the capstone an affect that does an assassinate on any sneak attack against a mob that qualifies for the same helpless effects as coup de grace does. Put the cool down at half that of coup de grace since assassins don't have the ways to create the state that a bard does and it is against the much lower assassinate DC (vs the very high perform skill).

[Full_Bleed]

What I think is a big problem, is that rogues have to sit out sections of combat if they want to get their DCs up. Sneaking to charge up DCs is something that really doesn't work out when there are barbs and paladins sitting in the middle of the room cleaving everything to death while an Assassin potentially sits out five out of every fifteen seconds of combat. I'm surprised so many people in this thread are OK with that mechanic.
We've got to get our DC boost somewhere and at least it is accessible. Complaining about how we get it always results in ubers telling us how the assassinate DC is in a "good" place.

So, no, for that kind of delay I'd like a bigger return but I just don't think anything will be done about it when the status-quo is constantly being reinforced by the best geared rogues in the game.

[Bobby88888]

We've got to get our DC boost somewhere and at least it is accessible. Complaining about how we get it always results in ubers telling us how the assassinate DC is in a "good" place.

So, no, for that kind of delay I'd like a bigger return but I just don't think anything will be done about it when the status-quo is constantly being reinforced by the best geared rogues in the game.

So you would prefer everyone can get a no fail DC with no work at all?

If you invest your DC to max and use measure the foe you can get 100% success rate, if you don't use measure you run the risk of failing on the harder stuff but on easier you can skip it. but now that measure provides much more than assassinate DC I would be trying to keep it up as much as possible even if I didn't need the DC.

So does saying that make me an uber with my 1st life rog assassin? and does expressing an opinion contrary to yours make me an uber?

You do get more return on the time spent sneaking. They halved the time you needed to sneak for it and added +4 MP, 2 dodge and 2 max dodge to MtF as well as the assassinate DC.

Ultimately you have to build the game around the top, or rather build the top around the game so that it isn't too easy. making it so with no work you can assassinate mobs EE breaks the game, it has nothing to do with uber or not or status-quo.

If you want to assassinate mid combat, due to what assassinate is it seems fair it is harder, ie the lower DC due to it relying on being unseen which is difficult mid combat.

[Full_Bleed]

So you would prefer everyone can get a no fail DC with no work at all?

Yeah. Because there is no middle ground between giving 100% coup to bards for nothing and having the namesake ability of assassins be more attainable after being required to jump through more hoops to use it. Its fun going into an EE adventure with my static group (usually with a sorc, pally, barb, and cleric) and not being able to assassinate reliably (and being the best geared and built of our group to boot). What I should do is tell them, "No, sorry, I can't use my core ability in there... lets do something else." Nevermind that we can do the adventures just fine, regardless, and being able to assassinate would not break a thing.

Here is what a 68 INT looks like (using Hassan's build):

int68: 18base, 6tome, 7levels, 1human, 2capstone, 2assassin, 4harper, 11item, 3insight, 1exc, 2profane, 2yugo, 2ship, 6epic destiny, 1 twist

And the assassinate DC:

10 base
20 rogue levels
6 stealthy (shadowdancer tier 1)
4 Dark Diversion
29 int68
5 measure the foe
74 TOTAL


If you think that is typical or simply a matter of building for it then you will not understand the issue no matter how it is spelled out. The game would not break if he did not have to have a raid item, yugo pots, an int twist, +6 tome, and a +11 item... not to mention some of the other decisions he gladly makes because hes got the gear to make up for it.


I just find this notion that we can't buff the assassin's core ability during this pass ludicrous and I think there is a fair amount of distortion from top geared (and solo) players who do not reflect the majority.

[Bobby88888]

Yeah. Because there is no middle ground between giving 100% coup to bards for nothing and having the namesake ability of assassins be more attainable after being required to jump through more hoops to use it. Its fun going into an EE adventure with my static group (usually with a sorc, pally, barb, and cleric) and not being able to assassinate reliably (and being the best geared and built of our group to boot). What I should do is tell them, "No, sorry, I can't use my core ability in there... lets do something else." Nevermind that we can do the adventures just fine, regardless, and being able to assassinate would not break a thing.

Here is what a 68 INT looks like (using Hassan's build):

int68: 18base, 6tome, 7levels, 1human, 2capstone, 2assassin, 4harper, 11item, 3insight, 1exc, 2profane, 2yugo, 2ship, 6epic destiny, 1 twist

And the assassinate DC:

10 base
20 rogue levels
6 stealthy (shadowdancer tier 1)
4 Dark Diversion
29 int68
5 measure the foe
74 TOTAL


If you think that is typical or simply a matter of building for it then you will not understand the issue no matter how it is spelled out. The game would not break if he did not have to have a raid item, yugo pots, an int twist, +6 tome, and a +11 item... not to mention some of the other decisions he gladly makes because hes got the gear to make up for it.


I just find this notion that we can't buff the assassin's core ability during this pass ludicrous and I think there is a fair amount of distortion from top geared (and solo) players who do not reflect the majority.

And the reason they are top geared etc is because they made the trade offs for it and invested into what was needed. That isn't to say there shouldn't be more lower leveled with lesser bonuses to Assassinate DC items but.
I can assassinate fairly reliably in EEs with a DC several below Hassan's 74 but the highest save mobs still presente an issue for me because I haven't invest all the way up yet, I am still working on it and I am fine with that. Sev already said that Coup is too much, while it doesn't look like they will be changing it any time soon at least they have seen that it was a bad way to go and won't be going there again.
So coup is better than assassinate, I agree there, I also agree assassinate should be better but you might as well remove the DC just like coup if you mess with it more than about +2. That is why I suggested things like letting assassinate bypass DB in the capstone. Assassins could then go for orange nameds in EH/EE and champions with DB.
Instead of asking for easy button on rogues give suggestions to improve assassinates versatility over all others so that it is the most desirable insta kill and at the top as a result of being the best not just DC.
Just because Assassinate is the core ability of the class does not mean you are entitled to have it work. It will work if you take the care to make it and that is how it should be. If they want to adjust the DC I think +1 or 2 wouldn't effect it too much and would help make room for some flexibility in AP other than that I can't see anywhere where the DC has any issues and even that isn't really an issue so much, Harper tree is the issue there but I am not going into that here or now.

I get that you are frustrated about your DC not being reliable but stick with it! invest in the right gear and work on it and you will see it working more and more, and that will give a sense of success rather than Coup which it is just all about trying to speed up your run on your 12/6/2 or whatever. If you take a look at Hassan's Assassin it has some good info there that you might be able to use to help out your own build, I took a look there and at Nokowi and picked up a little bit from both to help with my own build and it was really helpful.
If you want I am happy to try help you with your build specifically though I may not be the best person to ask but this thread isn't the place for it. (I hope you don't take this condescendingly I am really just trying to help)

That is why Rogue is so good, giving everyone that DC free really detracts from the PrE as a whole.

Best of luck Full_Bleed

[brzytki]

I don't know who you are, and I'm 100% sure my post wasn't directed at you.
You directed your post at people who said they'll be changing destiny to LD. I was the first person in this thread who provided a real comparison (with all breakdowns) of INT and DEX builds. If you haven't read my posts then your are far behind in this discussion. I'm tired of typing it for a fourth time because some people don't read other's posts.


I for one think it's a **** shame that Sev is going to make a design choice almost entirely because Tensors scrolls can be UMD'ed when to counter that all he would need to do would be put +4 INT into the capstone (like almost all the other new Capstones have) and delete the +2 Dex he is currently planning on putting in there.
It won't be enough. Feat, twist, 4+ APs behind.


Why Human as opposed to Morninglord?
Damage Boost for example. And you won't be spending many APs in racial tree anyway. Why Morninglord? And if Morninglord/Drow for INT one, then Halfling/Elf/Helf/Drow for DEX one. Same thing really.


You know how few Mobs even bypass 100% fort? Or 150%? Almost every character I have without trying has 150-200% The truth of course in REAL DDO is that almost no one uses Yugo pots, as evidenced by the complete lack of Amrath LFM it is therefore a real pain in the a** when game design is dictated by something few people actually bother with. Cue "well I use Yugo pots so everyone ese must be using them".

Give me a breakdown of your rogue easily having around 200% fort. Name specific items, please. Do you know that mobs with rogue levels can bypass fort up to their CR lvl? If every char you have without trying has 150-200 fort, go into EE quest with 110-120% fort and see how "few" mobs can bypass it.


So now you're spending 31 Points in T/A to get it, 3 AP in race for 1 DEX and have a whole 5AP left after 41AP in Assassin tree. So you're not getting KtA which means you're losing at least 7 base damage to get +1 DC for 12 seconds after you tumble... Is this the part where DEX would be OP?
I didn't say I would pick it. I only said it's not irrelevant for the discussion.


No one said it, but that hasn't stopped some of you (not necessarily you, the first two posts I've read of yours that I recall were today) from leaving it as an unstated assumption, implying that scrolling tensors constantly is like permanent +6 DEX, that comment is directed at those who are glossing over this, to them I say stop ignoring that it knocks you out of sneak and stop pretending you only ever play the same quest over and over so you can memorize exactly when you're going to need to hit your scroll fix right before you sneak. This is blatant Forum DDO, not even 2% of the player base is going to maintain such a clunky mechanic perfectly with Scroll/Stealth/MtF butting heads every time you don't remember to hit a scroll before you get to a fight, OR don't hit a scroll because you didn't know you were going to run out mid fight. And then also the slow down of sneak mode in there adding urgency to get to your target before the melee's kill everything.
You would be right if it lasted 10-20 seconds. But it lasts a little over a minute. And you don't really need Tenser's for every fight, it would put your DC even higher than INT one, so only for the highest save mobs.


Do you not agree that we are already down to DEX versus INT being a tradeoff?
No, if the Devs change only an assassinate formula, DEX will be a clear winner with very very few trade-offs, if any at all.

People who hate short buffs and/or the clunky drop you out of stealth mechanic (and they are many) will choose INT (and would chose it even if the capstone remains +2 +2) and people who love to juggle clickies will choose DEX... This is EXACTLY how they should design stuff. More skill ceiling, more choices, not less.
You are right here and i said it as well after Sev asked us if it'd be too good. Not everyone cares for minmaxing and they could stay with INT builds.


We've gone from:

"DEX is like triple the damage lel !!!!!!!!1111"

To even the opposition admitting:
"INT as a best DPS only if both stay in SD"

You say only if you stay in SD like that's not what a tremendous number of assassins will do... Yes as I've already noted LD is also popular (already even with only INT) and would remain totally viable for INT based assassins. because of course they don't need Max DC in all content CURRENTLY, even with INT. This wont change with DEX as an option... A tremendous number of players will also have zero interest in scrolling Tensors to get 3 more Mod and tumbling every 12 seconds and having the equivalent to 78 STR for melee DPS, instead of having KtA and the quivelent to 95-100 STR for melee DPS.
Come on, stop taking statements out of context. INT would be the best by only slight margin because it would have 5-7 MP more and 6-7 straight damage more vs No Mercy. And DEX will have better defences. If you choose to ignore a better option of going LD, than you'll stay in SD. I'm not a fan of converting everything to STR because it makes things more confusing. In your 78 STR vs 95-100 STR example you have a difference of 17-22 points in ability stat, that's 7-11 mod difference, that's 3-6 damage per hand with KtA. Not really that shiny if you look at it that way.


DEX as an option is balanced by making the Capstone +4 INT* with no DEX, it's that easy. And that is how close they are to already being a balanced option.

No, it's not that easy as was presented by a lot of other people, not only by me.

[FlaviusMaximus]

We've got to get our DC boost somewhere and at least it is accessible. Complaining about how we get it always results in ubers telling us how the assassinate DC is in a "good" place.


Yeah, rogues need that Assassinate boost but it doesn't have to be coming from sneaking for 5 seconds. It could just be a full time increase available at tier 5.


So, no, for that kind of delay I'd like a bigger return but I just don't think anything will be done about it when the status-quo is constantly being reinforced by the best geared rogues in the game.

Getting a Mythic Muffled Veneer may be a bit unrealistic considering mythic drop rates and how tough it is to PUG Ghosts on ee. That's why I'm glad they said they would offer items with larger Assassinate bonuses soon.


I don't know the exact mechanic on this, but if it mirrors normal vorpal, it needs to be improved. i.e. make it improved vorpal and scale the damage with 200-300 melee damage.

That's a really good point. The ability hasn't grown with the game. Doesn't do so much anymore. Needs to be at least Greater Vorpal. Trying to decide if Sovereign Vorpal would be too much or not.

[Bobby88888]

Lethality: Any sneak attack that also counts as a vorpal strike (attack roll of 20 followed by critical confirmation) that you make will kill most living targets.

I don't know the exact mechanic on this, but if it mirrors normal vorpal, it needs to be improved. i.e. make it improved vorpal and scale the damage with 200-300 melee damage.



That's a really good point. The ability hasn't grown with the game. Doesn't do so much anymore. Needs to be at least Greater Vorpal. Trying to decide if Sovereign Vorpal would be too much or not.

The whole 'vorpal' ability seems a bit outdated to me but if upgrading the vorpal type is all they are willing to do here at least it is something. Most people these days can deal 3k damage fairly quickly so even on sovereign vorpal feels a bit weak but the 300 extra damage would be nice and somewhat similar to option 3. below except a little weaker damage wise but has the kill them outright bit on end. The problem is that this ability depreciates very quickly as you enter epics. Setting it at sovereign would give it some continued power into higher epics but would be far too powerful for the heroics, you get it at lvl 18 so that has to be considered. Keeping in mind DB/DW block vorpal so won't work if you can't assassinate them and orange nameds in EH and EE would be immune as well as many of champions.

On that note I would prefer something along the lines of letting SA damage be effected by critical multiplier:
1. Crits only: either use weapon multiplier for crits (x3 heroic+epic) or set as x2 or x3 static number.
2. Crits + vorpal: Either use weapon multiplier for both (x3/x3 heroic, x3/x4 epic [This is probably too much]) or x2/x3 static number.
3. Vorpal only: Weapon multiplier (x3 heroic, x4 epic) or a static number (x3 maybe)
~Letting helpless increase SA damage is another option that could be added in conjunction with either imporved vorpal or critting SA.

Keeps the vorpal/critical theme the ability already has but keeps it up with the times (especially if set based on multipliers rather than static) and also keeps in the theme of SA damage.

Or something entirely different.
What do you all think?

I think this and giving assassinate some more versatility (such as bypassing DB which is fairly powerful so something lesser might be better but can't think what) are the most important things still missing. (and more SA dice if you keep chucking them in mechanic, Assassin only gets 8 but mechanic can already get 4 or 5 depending on weapon and mechanic was the most powerful rogue before this)

[redoubt]

Lethality:

If some form of vorpal is not competitive, what if a confirmed 20 triggered an assassinate check? (Regardless of HP remaining.)

It might be fun to have several different ways to assassinate within the tree besides just the T5, must be in sneak, version...

[slarden]

We've got to get our DC boost somewhere and at least it is accessible. Complaining about how we get it always results in ubers telling us how the assassinate DC is in a "good" place.

So, no, for that kind of delay I'd like a bigger return but I just don't think anything will be done about it when the status-quo is constantly being reinforced by the best geared rogues in the game.

A first life drow/sun elf without raid gear, yugo pots, store pots, mythic items or any temporary consumables and with only a +2 insightful int item/augment could get a dc of 70. This is weak compared to a bard's coup, but better than a first life PM's DC that had the same limitations of gear.

This would require investing in 8 Int through enhancements +2 more for the capstone. 5 int in shadowdancer. Having a +11 int item, +2 insightful int item, +1 excep int augment, epic muffled veneer. With a level 24 epic treasure hunter's spyglass and 6 int from shadowdancer you can get a dc of 71. The assassinate dc is more about build than raid gear or past lifes. A 71 dc will work in EE just about anywhere except orcs and giants in stormhorns and a few other enemies in higher level EEs.

This limits your race and build options tremendously unless you get some of the other assassinate boosters, but it doesn't require being uber, past lifes or raid gear. Completionist, a mythic helm, littany adds 4 to your dc for 75. Yugo pots would add 1 more for 76 although I wouldn't use the int pots.

Past life benefits don't really help your dc much (1 total with completionist), but are absolutely beneficial in other ways.

I am not disagreeing with you, because in comparison to bard our dc looks bad. If you spec for assassinate you can get a workable dc without past lifes, raid gear or mythic items.

With a dex build that 71 easily becomes a 73 with shadow dodge and dex yugo pots. (halfing or drow)

[Full_Bleed]

If you take a look at Hassan's Assassin it has some good info there that you might be able to use to help out your own build, I took a look there and at Nokowi and picked up a little bit from both to help with my own build and it was really helpful.
If you want I am happy to try help you with your build specifically though I may not be the best person to ask but this thread isn't the place for it. (I hope you don't take this condescendingly I am really just trying to help)
I'm not posting here for rogue tips. I'm pointing out what I think should be obvious, but doesn't seem to be. Just because the best geared people in the game find the ceiling doesn't mean they should be setting the bar. How would you like it if the bar for evasion was set by the same minority of people?

I actually think the whole DEX to assassinate DC is a good illustrator. As has been noted by many it gets people to higher DC's more easily. The "solution" some have proposed is to free up some INT build AP's/feats so that they can compensate. Most in the INT crowd don't have a problem with the DEX option *if* INT gets some love and there is more parity down the line.

So, why is it ok to buff INT build DC's if there is a DEX build option... but not a good enough reason to do even if there isn't?

You, yourself seem to be "ok" with another +2 somewhere... which is 2 more than we're currently getting...

I'd take it. But, you must recognize, that's 2 more points that guys who have already nailed their target think you deserve.


The idea that this pass is supposed to improve assassins but not assassination doesn't make sense.

[Bobby88888]

I'm not posting here for rogue tips. I'm pointing out what I think should be obvious, but doesn't seem to be. Just because the best geared people in the game find the ceiling doesn't mean they should be setting the bar. How would you like it if the bar for evasion was set by the same minority of people?

I actually think the whole DEX to assassinate DC is a good illustrator. As has been noted by many it gets people to higher DC's more easily. The "solution" some have proposed is to free up some INT build AP's/feats so that they can compensate. Most in the INT crowd don't have a problem with the DEX option *if* INT gets some love and there is more parity down the line.

So, why is it ok to buff INT build DC's if there is a DEX build option... but not a good enough reason to do even if there isn't?

You, yourself seem to be "ok" with another +2 somewhere... which is 2 more than we're currently getting...

I'd take it. But, you must recognize, that's 2 more points that guys who have already nailed their target think you deserve.


The idea that this pass is supposed to improve assassins but not assassination doesn't make sense.

Baring pally cha to saves evasion builds evasion bars should be set at the higher points, nothing should work without investing in it imo. Like expecting to never get hit if you have 0 dodge and no blur/incorp, it just doesn't happen.

The Dex does get you higher DCs which is the problem, reducing the investment to be virtually meaningless, however since it can let less geared up assassins get their DC up was the source of my suggested formula that limited Dex to slightly lower but possibly easier to get there DC so you can take the easy route but it won't be as good as having worked for it.

"ok" with it in the sense of I think it would be good if Dex can get on the table too but it should be on par with Int, I said at most you would add 2 DCs in but I wouldn't recommend but clearly you haven't read all of this (there is a lot so I don't blame you but if you are making accusations from it you might want to). I am not keen about more Int but I was trying to find solutions to the problem to please as many people as possible which means no one will be 100% happy, hardly problem solving/compromising if you go others want this, I don't, nope. And no I don't think I deserve any 'free' int and I haven't yet hit the no fail DC. Infact most of my suggestions included no Int boosts and that is the ones I favoured and limited Dex via the formula to balance DCs or a 'horizontal' assassinate buff for Int (not ideal if only for 1 DC either btw) but again I was brainstorming ideas to try get Dex to work so I had to consider the alternatives even if I disagreed with the premise the idea was based on.
I don't want something for nothing but if Dex got added I don't want Int to become obsolete as a result. I also think freeing up the feat is the wrong way to go about it and only 1 AP is freed up (assuming you are going for all 4 harper int) with the other changes which is basically irrelevant and would probably go back into assassin.

Buffing Int builds more is good just not the DC, only reason I even suggested messing with DCs even slightly was to try balance in Dex but I am just not seeing it working and think Dex should be left out and DCs left alone unless a working model can be found.

slarden has a good example there of a high DC without any of those things you were complaining were setting the DC threshold so high though I think sunelf kinda doesn't count since you would need a +1 heart of wood but Drow for sure.

Underlined a very important line in your post. The pass should have versatility buffs to assassinate and I encourage everyone to try come up with some and maybe they will go in if we are lucky. Assassinate should be the best insta kill but DC isn't how you make it that in the current game, versatility of some type is.

[slarden]

I'm not posting here for rogue tips. I'm pointing out what I think should be obvious, but doesn't seem to be. Just because the best geared people in the game find the ceiling doesn't mean they should be setting the bar. How would you like it if the bar for evasion was set by the same minority of people?

I actually think the whole DEX to assassinate DC is a good illustrator. As has been noted by many it gets people to higher DC's more easily. The "solution" some have proposed is to free up some INT build AP's/feats so that they can compensate. Most in the INT crowd don't have a problem with the DEX option *if* INT gets some love and there is more parity down the line.

So, why is it ok to buff INT build DC's if there is a DEX build option... but not a good enough reason to do even if there isn't?

You, yourself seem to be "ok" with another +2 somewhere... which is 2 more than we're currently getting...

I'd take it. But, you must recognize, that's 2 more points that guys who have already nailed their target think you deserve.


The idea that this pass is supposed to improve assassins but not assassination doesn't make sense.
I can't speak for everyone there are many ideas on this thread.

I am not asking for a buff to int DC. I am also fine with dex being a little higher DC. I am more interested in parity on feats and action points which can be addressed in the Assassin core easily enough.

The difference between a maxed out assassin and a first life assassin with easy-to-get gear is 4 DC (completionist, littany, mythic instead of epic helm). There is very little content where that difference of 4 matters.

The difference between a maxed out player and first lifer overall is huge mainly because of accumulated past life PRR beneifts, dps benefits, hp benefits, defensive benefits, etc.

The DC wouldn't prevent me from playing an undergeared first life rogue. The defensive deficits would. A first life swashbuckler is fine. Same with paladin and barbarian. Rogue is more complicated to play and those extra benefits from gearing and past lifes help quite a bit, but still a maxed out rogue is lacking in some areas compared to a first life bard, paladin or barbarian. Such is our lot in life for choosing to sneak around in shadows. At least it is a very fun and challenging build to play and we can ALWAYS get the max trap bonus every quest :)

[slarden]

slarden has a good example there of a high DC without any of those things you were complaining were setting the DC threshold so high though I think sunelf kinda doesn't count since you would need a +1 heart of wood but Drow for sure.

Agreed on the heart - that was total laziness on my part - I wanted to start at 15 and was willing to buy a heart to do so vs. playing a drow. But the 2 mega-healing clickies were really nice before harper tree squeezed those out of my build. Drow and human are best options for an int-based assassin. Drow and halfling are the best options for a dex-based assassin.

[Fedora1]

The truth of course in REAL DDO is that almost no one uses Yugo pots

Agree. I've played since late 2009 and never used a yugo pot (or SF pot for that matter).

[CThruTheEgo]

Here is what a 68 INT looks like (using Hassan's build):

int68: 18base, 6tome, 7levels, 1human, 2capstone, 2assassin, 4harper, 11item, 3insight, 1exc, 2profane, 2yugo, 2ship, 6epic destiny, 1 twist

And the assassinate DC:

10 base
20 rogue levels
6 stealthy (shadowdancer tier 1)
4 Dark Diversion
29 int68
5 measure the foe
74 TOTAL


If you think that is typical or simply a matter of building for it then you will not understand the issue no matter how it is spelled out. The game would not break if he did not have to have a raid item, yugo pots, an int twist, +6 tome, and a +11 item... not to mention some of the other decisions he gladly makes because hes got the gear to make up for it.


I just find this notion that we can't buff the assassin's core ability during this pass ludicrous and I think there is a fair amount of distortion from top geared (and solo) players who do not reflect the majority.

Well then let's remove that distortion by toning these numbers down to what is easily obtainable by the majority. That will show us what DC the average player is capable of with minimal effort.

+6 int tome: yep, store bought only, no argument there. But +3 tomes are readily available in the game, so anyone interested in playing a DC based build in high end content should expect to have at least that.

Insightful int 3: The Intricate Field Optics are arguably one of the most difficult to obtain items in terms of randomness and time commitment of farming the quest, or patience of waiting and willingness to pay for it on the shard house. +3 insightful int is easily obtainable from Crystal Cove, but that's not around all the time. A +2 augment is feasible, but might have to be bought either from the store or shard house. So let's just assume none of these options are available and drop the insightful bonus altogether.

Yugo pots: Amrath can still be challenging at level, although much easier to get the favor at cap. But we'll just drop this anyway since it's often a point of contention among people.

Epic Litany: difficult to get for the average player, no argument there so let's drop it.

Dark Diversion or Mythic Muffled Veneer: both not easily obtainable by the average player. But the Epic Muffled Veneer is very easy to get. So let's assume that and drop 2 DCs.

+11 int is found on 2 items from Epic Necro IV, both of which can be obtained from the chain reward by running the chain on casual, so this should be expected. You can easily find +10 int on lootgen gear until you get a +11.

So with those adjustments int and the assassinate DC become:

int68: 18base, 3tome, 7levels, 1human, 2capstone, 2assassin, 4harper, 11item, 1exc, 2ship, 6epic destiny, 1 twist

And the assassinate DC:

10 base
20 rogue levels
6 stealthy (shadowdancer tier 1)
2 Epic Muffled Veneer
24 int58
5 measure the foe
67 TOTAL

I can tell you from experience that a 67 DC will be 100% effective in everything but EE Stormhorns and will even be effective against lower fort targets (i.e. casters) in Stormhorns. It's 1 single quest chain that requires uber optimization. The hardest content should require more effort put into your character to perform well, especially on a DC based build. There's no reason to add more DCs just for 1 quest chain.

Sev has stated that they will be increasing the DC through items, so we can expect the DC to rise as the level cap does. He has also stated that the dex change isn't going through and he was just looking for feedback, so all of this debate is pointless anyway. And as my numbers above show, asking for a DC increase at all is unnecessary.

[CThruTheEgo]

In an effort to get the thread back on track and steer the discussion away from the dex vs int debate that is no longer needed, I want to bring up a few changes that would improve the fun factor of assassin without increasing its power too much. I'll list them in order of importance (imo anyway).

1) Increase sneak speed: As stated previously, giving assassin at least 100% base movement speed does not increase their power in any way, but it does increase their compatibility with groups. Drop faster sneakingg altogether, or move it back to acrobat for other rogues to use, then add to each of the first five cores a 10% reduction in the sneak speed penalty, so by the level 18 core an assassin would have no penalty. I can't think of any reason why this shouldn't happen.

2) Measure the foe fade 1 stack every 6 seconds: Under the current proposal, it will simply be tedious to drop into sneak every 10 seconds to keep the buff up. Changing it to fade 1 stack every 6 seconds would still require dropping into sneak every so often to keep it up (more often if you want to keep it maxed), but would not require extreme micromanagement to get any benefit from it at all. Less micromanagement means more fun. I think this would also encourage being in sneak mode for more time overall, which certainly fits thematically.

3) Increase light armor mastery PRR to 5/10/15: While I appreciate the melee power debuff, I still think a slight increase in more consistent damage mitigation is necessary. An additional 9 PRR is not going to amount to much, but it will help assassins in the area that they most need it.

I can settle for not adding the PRR, but the first two will make a huge difference in enjoyment of the assassin playstyle. Thanks for staying engaged with the discussion Sev.

[Monkey-Boy]

Agree. I've played since late 2009 and never used a yugo pot (or SF pot for that matter).

Why?

[Monkey-Boy]

Yugo pots: Amrath can still be challenging at level, although much easier to get the favor at cap. But we'll just drop this anyway since it's often a point of contention among people.


"At level" for Elite Amrath is 21 - you've got to be kidding me.

[Monkey-Boy]

it's looking more and more like if you want a melee insta-kill on a 'rogue' you should splash 5 Bard level and swashbuckle.

More DPS, better instakills, still be a trapper, and have a few spells to boot.

Better by every measurable metric, which is insanely stupid. It just shouldn't be like this.

[CThruTheEgo]

"At level" for Elite Amrath is 21 - you've got to be kidding me.

I use Yugo pots all the time. It's easy to get the favor imo. But my post was specifically geared toward the "average" player, whatever that means. And for a more casual player with mediocre gear, no past lives, no good maxed destiny, and no one to run with, yes, even at level 21 they can be difficult, especially on an assassin. And since someone always seems to complain when you mention them, I just chose to drop them altogether to show that a solid DC can be reached even without them.

[Monkey-Boy]

I use Yugo pots all the time. It's easy to get the favor imo. But my post was specifically geared toward the "average" player, whatever that means. And for a more casual player without decent gear, past lives, a good maxed destiny, and no one to run with, yes, even at level 21 they can be difficult, especially on an assassin. And since someone always seems to complain when you mention them, I just chose to drop them altogether to show that a solid DC can be reached even without them.

People complaining about Yugo pots and thinking they are out of reach of the average player are delusional. Elite Amrath is on par with low-level EH quests.

Maybe when the cap was 20 I could understand this, but these quests got nerfed (I swear they did, not jut our power creep) when MoTU hit and aren't tough at all anymore.

With that said, the INT pots on a melee are questionable but you can make up for the fortification loss.

[CThruTheEgo]

it's looking more and more like if you want a melee insta-kill on a 'rogue' you should splash 5 Bard level and swashbuckle.

More DPS, better instakills, still be a trapper, and have a few spells to boot.

Better by every measurable metric, which is insanely stupid. It just shouldn't be like this.

No, you'd want 18 bard/2 rogue for all the bard goodies including a solid enchantment DC. Maybe even 15 bard/3 fighter/2 rogue for defender stance. Both make a much better instakilling melee, but I like that my assassin requires a little more skill and finesse to play effectively. It's good to have both options available.

[CThruTheEgo]

People complaining about Yugo pots and thinking they are out of reach of the average player are delusional. Elite Amrath is on par with low-level EH quests.

Maybe when the cap was 20 I could understand this, but these quests got nerfed (I swear they did, not jut our power creep) when MoTU hit and aren't tough at all anymore.

With that said, the INT pots on a melee are questionable but you can make up for the fortification loss.

Oh I agree. I'm just trying to point out the ease of obtaining an effective assassinate DC.

[Monkey-Boy]

Oh I agree. I'm just trying to point out the ease of obtaining an effective assassinate DC.

What do we consider an "effective" DC? Almost no-fail everywhere or almost no-fail taking EE Stormhorns out of the equation?

[CThruTheEgo]

What do we consider an "effective" DC? Almost no-fail everywhere or almost no-fail taking EE Stormhorns out of the equation?

EE Stormhorns is the only quest chain that requires max optimization. Excluding that, you can easily drop 5 DCs at least and still be 100% effective everywhere else. And it's even possible to reach 100% effectiveness in EE Stormhorns, but that does require the perfect setup, which I don't think is a bad thing personally.

[Fedora1]

Why?

Necro II/III quests and Shavrath quests are not my thing. Don't like them so I don't play them (well very occasionally but not often). If it ain't fun I don't bother and I can live without yugo/sf pots. I have a dex based dps shadar kai assassin at cap, which until the bard revamp was probably the easiest I ever made it to cap.

If there is a build that requires yugo/sf pots to be viable I simply don't bother. It's not that hard to find something else enjoyable and viable.

[dualscissors]

snip

1) Increase sneak speed: As stated previously, giving assassin at least 100% base movement speed does not increase their power in any way, but it does increase their compatibility with groups. Drop faster sneakingg altogether, or move it back to acrobat for other rogues to use, then add to each of the first five cores a 10% reduction in the sneak speed penalty, so by the level 18 core an assassin would have no penalty. I can't think of any reason why this shouldn't happen.

2) Measure the foe fade 1 stack every 6 seconds: Under the current proposal, it will simply be tedious to drop into sneak every 10 seconds to keep the buff up. Changing it to fade 1 stack every 6 seconds would still require dropping into sneak every so often to keep it up (more often if you want to keep it maxed), but would not require extreme micromanagement to get any benefit from it at all. Less micromanagement means more fun. I think this would also encourage being in sneak mode for more time overall, which certainly fits thematically.

3) Increase light armor mastery PRR to 5/10/15: While I appreciate the melee power debuff, I still think a slight increase in more consistent damage mitigation is necessary. An additional 9 PRR is not going to amount to much, but it will help assassins in the area that they most need it.

I can settle for not adding the PRR, but the first two will make a huge difference in enjoyment of the assassin playstyle. Thanks for staying engaged with the discussion Sev.

I'll trade you your #3 for the level 18 assassin core "Lethality" being a more robust and level-18-worthy ability since 100 dmg on Vorpals is weak sauce on Elite mobs that have 1000s of HPs. :-)

I'm glad to see you pushing your experience on points #1 and #2.

[Monkey-Boy]

EE Stormhorns is the only quest chain that requires max optimization. Excluding that, you can easily drop 5 DCs at least and still be 100% effective everywhere else. And it's even possible to reach 100% effectiveness in EE Stormhorns, but that does require the perfect setup, which I don't think is a bad thing personally.

No-fail fort save in EE Horns in in the 80s . . . which I don't think is even possible?

[slarden]

People complaining about Yugo pots and thinking they are out of reach of the average player are delusional. Elite Amrath is on par with low-level EH quests.

Maybe when the cap was 20 I could understand this, but these quests got nerfed (I swear they did, not jut our power creep) when MoTU hit and aren't tough at all anymore.

With that said, the INT pots on a melee are questionable but you can make up for the fortification loss.

Agreed, all you need is the pack really. I see favor runs all the time for Amarath. The real issue is whether the pot makes sense for a specific build. I use int pots + con pots on my wizard whenever I notice it close to being off timer. I get fort bonuses on both warforged and PMs so it makes sense.

I don't use int pots on my assassin because my fort isn't high enough, but I did use dex pots before the harper tree and will again if the proposed dex change happens to assassin.

These aren't out of reach, but I think the trade-off of a twist spot to be able to use int yugo pots is the real issue and the reason I won't use those.

[dualscissors]

wiki on fortification:

"If a CR 54 Sellsword Footpad attacks someone with 150% fortification, the Sellsword Footpad has a 4% chance to normally conduct a critical hit or sneak attack."

Thunderforged Armor (fort'n 130%) + Brace for Impace (+40 fort'n) = 170 fortification. This sures my character up for those CR 54 and higher mobs. Even with twisting Brace for Impact, I personally wouldn't want to drop -50% (170-50=120 fort'n) for a mere +1 DC boost with an Int yugo pot. Being signifcantly in the wheelhouse of being critted by EE mobs doesn't strike me as the place to be, esp. on a low PRR toon with mediocre self-healing options.

[dkyle]

it's looking more and more like if you want a melee insta-kill on a 'rogue' you should splash 5 Bard level and swashbuckle.

More DPS, better instakills, still be a trapper, and have a few spells to boot.

Better by every measurable metric, which is insanely stupid. It just shouldn't be like this.

Agree, but it shouldn't be to nerf to Coup de Grace (except maybe the interaction with Improved Precise shot...). Assassins should just get something better. Bottom line is, single-target insta-kill isn't really that powerful, even when it almost never fails.

What I suggest:
Assassinate can work without sneak attack, and works as current in this case.
With sneak attack, Assassinate grants no save (i.e., auto-success, barring immunities), and has its cooldown reduced based on what the DC would be (something like, every 25DC beyond 10DC halves cooldown)

[Chai]

Agree, but it shouldn't be to nerf to Coup de Grace (except maybe the interaction with Improved Precise shot...). Assassins should just get something better. Bottom line is, single-target insta-kill isn't really that powerful, even when it almost never fails.

What I suggest:
Assassinate can work without sneak attack, and works as current in this case.
With sneak attack, Assassinate grants no save (i.e., auto-success, barring immunities), and has its cooldown reduced based on what the DC would be (something like, every 25DC beyond 10DC halves cooldown)

If you guys think 5 levels of bard is powerful, this would usher in the new era of 15 paladin 5 rogue.

With all the easily farmed FOM items nowdays, sleet storm scrolls would turn anyone with 5 rogue levels into godmode.

[dualscissors]

it's looking more and more like if you want a melee insta-kill on a 'rogue' you should splash 5 Bard level and swashbuckle.

More DPS, better instakills, still be a trapper, and have a few spells to boot.

Better by every measurable metric, which is insanely stupid. It just shouldn't be like this.

Not that there is any evidence that either Coup is being massively nerfed or that Assassinate is getting a Coup-esque DC power boost...but "better by every measurable metric" is overstating it. It might be enough to say that Coup's DC is absurd, obtained with minimal effort, and that it doesn't have the stealth prerequisite.

Being able to reliably kill 2 adjacent targets (due to TWF) without preparing them instead of 1 target with prep goes to Assassinate. Also when soloing a tough quest, being able to pick off targets and remain stealthed so I don't get ganged up on by the other half dozen mobs in the room I'd also consider situationally useful vs. having to take them all on at once in the open. Of course this point is murky since a bard has CC options if mobs all b-line for you.

[LightBear]

The playstyle doesn't lend itself to fast

Sev~
Assassins just don't lend them selfs to be fast at anything.
If you want to make assassins be assassins then here's a thought.
Let their sneaks only be broken if they roll a "X-Rogue level" where X is the roll of the natural d20 to hit.
So at one rogue level it won't break on a natural 20 but will break on a 1 to 19.
At twenty rogue levels it will never break.

You can play around with the "X-Rogue level" to make it fit how you folks feel fit.

Another option is for the timer on assassinate be lowered by each rogue level you take.

Another option is to let the number of foes be able to be killed by a single assassinate attempt be raised for each rogue level you have.

Give em pass without trace as long as they're sneaking.

Give them greater visibility when they do a shadow walk, give something so a successful assassinate from this shadow walk doesn't break this shadow walk.

Edit:
Double post from another thread but felt it belongs here.

Ps: I doubt this will be done as it requires some serious rework.
Pss: That assassin's trick is a step in the right direction, hope it's a passive.

[Full_Bleed]

So with those adjustments int and the assassinate DC become:

int68: 18base, 3tome, 7levels, 1human, 2capstone, 2assassin, 4harper, 11item, 1exc, 2ship, 6epic destiny, 1 twist

And the assassinate DC:

10 base
20 rogue levels
6 stealthy (shadowdancer tier 1)
2 Epic Muffled Veneer
24 int58
5 measure the foe
67 TOTAL

I can tell you from experience that a 67 DC will be 100% effective in everything but EE Stormhorns and will even be effective against lower fort targets (i.e. casters) in Stormhorns. It's 1 single quest chain that requires uber optimization. The hardest content should require more effort put into your character to perform well, especially on a DC based build. There's no reason to add more DCs just for 1 quest chain.

First, I appreciate you taking the time to be more realistic in your approach. I think you were fair in taking a lot of that gear out of the equation. But I want to point out one flaw in what you're trying to say:

7levels, 1human, 2assassin, 4harper, 6epic destiny, 1 twist

You think under-geared players want, or should, make that kind of stat investment to get to a 67 DC?

The point wasn't that "normal" geared people can't do that, it's that they don't want to do that (and don't do that) because they give up a whole lot of goodies to increase the DC of ONE ability (core ability or not) and they don't have the gear to make up for it. To what? Get a DC that utterly fails in top content or isn't all that reliable? And that will surely fail in ToEE and beyond. No thank you. Spending all those points on max stats makes the class gimp unless you've got the gear to make up for it.



Sev has stated that they will be increasing the DC through items, so we can expect the DC to rise as the level cap does.
We can't--and shouldn't--count on this. We've got greensteel deconstruction in the game, too, right? :rolleyes:


And as my numbers above show, asking for a DC increase at all is unnecessary.
I see just the opposite. I think you proved *my* point. That it costs a "normal" rogue too much to get a pretty low DC. They give up a lot of stuff for it, and they probably don't have the gear to justify it. They're not playing the game in a vaccuum. They are playing it with "normal" Bards, Pally's, Sorcs, and Barbs (and future upgraded classes, etc). Having to invest so many enhancements points, a twist, and epic destiny points into their prime stat to get a mediocre assassination DC isn't cool. It's boring. It's not a sign of a well-balanced class it's a sign of an unbalanced class.

Assassinate isn't THAT powerful, and frankly, I don't think most should invest what you suggest to get that INT with "normal" gear. I think it would be a bad investment. Assassinate is a flavor ability. Something that makes the class fun. It doesn't break the game.


Actually, if they don't want to increase the DC's, I'd' be happy if they threw assassins a bone by doing what they do for Monk's Quivering Palm. Give Assassins a bonus on their next attempt if they fail. I'll take that, too, over just ignoring the ability in certain content.

[dualscissors]

First, I appreciate you taking the time to be more realistic in your approach. I think you were fair in taking a lot of that gear out of the equation. But I want to point out one flaw in what you're trying to say:

7levels, 1human, 2assassin, 4harper, 6epic destiny, 1 twist

You think under-geared players want, or should, make that kind of stat investment to get to a 67 DC?

The point wasn't that "normal" geared people can't do that, it's that they don't want to do that (and don't do that) because they give up a whole lot of goodies to increase the DC of ONE ability (core ability or not) and they don't have the gear to make up for it. To what? Get a DC that utterly fails in top content or isn't all that reliable? And that will surely fail in ToEE and beyond. No thank you. Spending all those points on max stats makes the class gimp unless you've got the gear to make up for it.



Since the Harper pass of Int to hit and damage, the "tax" for the investment to Int doesn't have as strong of a downside. Each point to Int synergizes well in also bolstering DPS, Ref save, KtA, skills, as I'm sure you are aware.

Maxing level ups is standard on DC builds. The human enhancement comes at 3 APs. The Int ups in assassin don't take away from any other desired buys. 2 Int-ups in Harper is easy, 4 is perhaps pricey.

The ED points to Int is expensive; it's too bad 4 doesn't cut it. I can't morally support a twist slot for a +0.5 to mod (Cthru was just evening his model out). Going all out on Int would be a little rougher for your Con/Dex on a 28 or 32 pt. build, but I'm personally (speaking only for myself) comfortable with 28/32s not being as awesome for end game.

As for the gear, the +11 Int items are very doable even if you don't get them on your first few Orchard runs.

[changelingamuck]

Has anyone suggested making the Resist Poison (http://ddowiki.com/page/Resist_Poison) and Snake Blood (http://ddowiki.com/page/Snake_Blood) feats give bonuses to assassin tree poison DCs or maybe even stacking +1 to assassinate DC each?

I think it could be a good idea to make those unpopular feats a little more flavorful.

[CThruTheEgo]

I'll trade you your #3 for the level 18 assassin core "Lethality" being a more robust and level-18-worthy ability since 100 dmg on Vorpals is weak sauce on Elite mobs that have 1000s of HPs. :-)

I'll take that trade. Being more deadly at the cost of survivability is fair.


No-fail fort save in EE Horns in in the 80s . . . which I don't think is even possible?

The assassin in my sig has a 69 DC without measure the foe, 74 with full stacks. With 0-2 stacks of measure the foe (depending on how long it took me to get in position for an assassinate), I had an 80+% success rate with assassinate in EE Stormhorns. With full stacks of measure the foe, it was 100%. This was within the last couple of months.

[Monkey-Boy]

The assassin in my sig has a 69 DC without measure the foe, 74 with full stacks. With 0-2 stacks of measure the foe (depending on how long it took me to get in position for an assassinate), I had an 80+% success rate with assassinate in EE Stormhorns. With full stacks of measure the foe, it was 100%. This was within the last couple of months.

If you're talking about the orcs, I do not believe you.

[krimsonrane]

-Increase the natural 20 vorpal to improved vorpal at lvl 20 then sovereign vorpal status at lvl 24 and finally Reaper status at lvl 28 with a feat.
-Give a cleavelike non ED assassinate that can kill everything it hits. A 60 second cooldown would be fine.
-Take out the search delay and just show the traps and boxes to anyone able to see it. Search should only be for those who may not have enough skill and need to try several times.
-With fortification going through the roof give rogues a better way to overcome such high fortifications.
-Remove the sneak speed enhancments and just allow rogue classes of a minimum level to move at full speed in sneak mode.
Maybe in advancing stages by level ending with 100% at lvl 20
-Create more weapons, clothing and armor specifically for assassins. Not just one or two rare underwhelming items.
-Allow for social skills like bluff to be a set up for assassinate. You turn your back and your dead.
-Finally ramp up traps a lot more. Make then deadly, dangerous and significantly harder to bypass without a rogue type.

[Severlin]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

[krimsonrane]

I'll take that trade. Being more deadly at the cost of survivability is fair.



The assassin in my sig has a 69 DC without measure the foe, 74 with full stacks. With 0-2 stacks of measure the foe (depending on how long it took me to get in position for an assassinate), I had an 80+% success rate with assassinate in EE Stormhorns. With full stacks of measure the foe, it was 100%. This was within the last couple of months.

I can second this and i saw it recently. a 72 was not enough for no fail. this was after he spent months getting every elite item and tome bonus there is. Imagine when the cap is 30. What good is an assassin who "might" kill the wizard everyone is afraid of? A glass ceiling exists in the assassins dc.

[krimsonrane]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

yes. it is unquestionable that we need a bonus to DC's as a glass ceiling exists right now. But that is addressing the obvious.

if you can check out my suggestions above.

[redoubt]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

+1 at 18 and 20 would be okay.
+1 and +2 augments OR a +6 item somewhere.

That would be a total of +4 available from the pass as a whole. I think this would be acceptable as adding options and maybe some choice of running outside Shadow Dancer. Adding more than this would likely be too much.

[PermaBanned]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

This would be good. Also, have you guys considered adding Assassinate to the list of "Tactical Feats" so that Combat Mastery items and Fighter Past Lives could contribute as alternate sources? It seems that Assassinate is one of the most difficult DCs in the game to increase and the gear options are extremely few and far between...

[Coldin]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

I would be okay with this. Not that I really think the bonus is truly needed, but would be helpful for pure rogues. I recommend +2 for the 18 Core, and an additional +4 for the Capstone, if only to make the capstone more worthwhile for level 20 rogues.

[redoubt]

First, I appreciate you taking the time to be more realistic in your approach. I think you were fair in taking a lot of that gear out of the equation. But I want to point out one flaw in what you're trying to say:

7levels, 1human, 2assassin, 4harper, 6epic destiny, 1 twist

You think under-geared players want, or should, make that kind of stat investment to get to a 67 DC?

.

I don't know if under-geared players want that, but I think it should require that level of investment. Remember, this is the "endgame" that is always being discussed. To hit EE DCs you should require significant investment. I personally draw the line at anything mythic or store bought. I also agree that INT Yugo pots have a bad side effect on rogues, so I would generally not count them either.

I think CThru's modified list for DC is a pretty good one to use for balancing purposes.

You will note that Sev is asking about DC boosts as well.

[Severlin]

This would be good. Also, have you guys considered adding Assassinate to the list of "Tactical Feats" so that Combat Mastery items and Fighter Past Lives could contribute as alternate sources? It seems that Assassinate is one of the most difficult DCs in the game to increase and the gear options are extremely few and far between...

We thought about it, but having fighters add more to Assassinate than Rogue didn't feel right.

Sev~

[redoubt]

If you're talking about the orcs, I do not believe you.

Not good enough. He stated his data. He tested with an assassin and it shows a fort save.

Please post your test data to refute his.

[redoubt]

We thought about it, but having fighters add more to Assassinate than Rogue didn't feel right.

Sev~

You were a Rogue in a past life. You occasionally find yourself looking over your shoulder. Each time you acquire this feat you gain +2 to saves vs. traps and deal +1 damage when sneak attacking. This feat can be stacked up to three times.

Maybe add +1 assassinate DC per rogue past life?

Cleric does it for conjuration.
Sorc does it for evocation.

[CThruTheEgo]

I want to point out one flaw in what you're trying to say:

7levels, 1human, 2assassin, 4harper, 6epic destiny, 1 twist

You think under-geared players want, or should, make that kind of stat investment to get to a 67 DC?

Yes I do think that's how it should be because that's how a DC based build is built.


The point wasn't that "normal" geared people can't do that, it's that they don't want to do that (and don't do that) because they give up a whole lot of goodies to increase the DC of ONE ability (core ability or not) and they don't have the gear to make up for it. To what? Get a DC that utterly fails in top content or isn't all that reliable? And that will surely fail in ToEE and beyond. No thank you. Spending all those points on max stats makes the class gimp unless you've got the gear to make up for it.

It's called min/maxing, and it's how high end builds are able to do what they do best. And as dualscissors pointed out, there is now little cost in min/maxing on an int based assassin thanks to harper. There is excellent synergy in fact. Admittedly, however, there is a severe lack of variety.


I see just the opposite. I think you proved *my* point. That it costs a "normal" rogue too much to get a pretty low DC.

That "pretty low DC" works in 98% of the game with minimal investment. What more do you want?


They give up a lot of stuff for it, and they probably don't have the gear to justify it.

What exactly is given up? Again, look at what dualscissors pointed out. Quite a lot is gained in fact.


They're not playing the game in a vaccuum. They are playing it with "normal" Bards, Pally's, Sorcs, and Barbs (and future upgraded classes, etc).

Why should every class/build be turned into an easy button? That's exactly what you're asking for – an instakill that takes no effort to be 100% effective in the hardest content. You've got swashbuckler for that if that's what you're really looking for. Assassins require skill to build and play well. For those who want an easy button, they have plenty of options. Assassins are a unique playstyle which does not appeal to the majority of players and never will as long as they retain that playstyle. For those who enjoy that playstyle, they aren't looking for an easy button approach. It's good that we have this variety. Something for everyone.


Having to invest so many enhancements points, a twist, and epic destiny points into their prime stat to get a mediocre assassination DC isn't cool. It's boring. It's not a sign of a well-balanced class it's a sign of an unbalanced class.

Again, this is standard for a DC based build. Have you ever built a DC based build?

[Torvaldsberg]

Maybe add +1 assassinate DC per rogue past life?


Beat me to it, but this would seem reasonable to me.

It wouldn't be extremely overwhelming, 3 more DC on a purpose built build would help when there is no time to wait on 'Measure the Foe'. It could also be used to free up a few enhancement points currently being spent on upping Int, and allow a bit more variety for anyone that feels the 3 extra DC would get them where they need to be. Might allow for some mechanic/racial spending etc. It definitely couldn't hurt to have some flexibility. If, as CThuThe Ego states( and I have no doubt he is right), we can already get to a near no-fail EE DC, this would perhaps let some experimenting occur.

[davmuzl]

We thought about it, but having fighters add more to Assassinate than Rogue didn't feel right.

Sev~

You mean the past life? Because the question is, would it hurt to just make sure that rogue still adds more even with fighter levels.

[CThruTheEgo]

If you're talking about the orcs, I do not believe you.

Yes, orcs and giants. And, you don't have to believe me.

[bbqzor]

players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed
This doesnt represent 100% of us. I, for one, liked seeing the +Ref there. Splashing 2 of another class can easily yield the same save bonus, or more. And since Assassinate is (seemingly, and sadly) stuck to being Int-based, its a serious issue to get enough Ref for consistent EE evasion. Insightful Reflexes is already a heavy, *heavy* feat tax to make assassins pay. And they *have* to pay it, or suffer an unusable assassinate (splitting investments between dex and int just means neither ref or assassinate works high end... the only solution is go all int and take insightful ref).


What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs?
The above said, this is a necessary change. I have said the entire time the DC formula is too punishing. And it is. Just because it works with "one perfect setup" doesnt mean it really "works" for gameplay. It just means every assassin has to be the same, and that means no real character building is occuring... everyone is just copying or near-copying the only viable path. Thats the opposite of personal agency and character diversity; the two things that make DDO stand out relative to other games, and invite the most input from the players about how they want to play. Assassins dont get to care about how they want to play, they get to do the one singular thing that works. Its lame. If you arent going to just modernize the formula, this would be the next best thing.

Given the choice between ref save and DC, I would pick DC. But Id rather see both (and not because "oh more power whee"). The rogue class is designed, and seemingly continues to be in this pass, to need successful abilities to play. With prr/mrr, it doesnt matter how successful you are. You just take less damage. Rogues have to make stealth checks, or make assassinate checks, or make reflex checks, or make trap checks, etc.

A fighter can fail his way to victory by just keep swinging and keep healing. Even if hes taking more damage or dealing less damage than he "should" he can still make it. A rogue cant fail his way out of a paper bag; if he cant pass the numbers necessary, he does nothing. Theres no "try until you get it drinking potions" for disarm when a box blows up. Theres no "try again maybe next time" if you dont have enough hide and get seen and cause a train. Theres no "do-over" on evasion if it spikes out and kills you. So its critical (like capstone worthy) to be sure those key things are supported and working. Without that, multiclass will always be the better option.

And dont forget about Shadow Dagger. Think about how hard assassinate is to land, then realize that assassinate has 2 more base dc, gets bonuses from destinies and items and enhancements, and STILL isnt quite scaled appropriately. Im not saying shadow dagger should be great, but I hate seeing things basically stay worthless during a pass. I mean sure it might work at level 3 when you get it or something but maybe you can make it so it works 20+ too. Maybe just add +epic level to the DC or something, so it goes up 8 more from 20 to 28. Shrugs... anythings going to be better than ignoring it.

[dualscissors]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

Sev, thanks again for your activity in the thread.

It is correct that a 64+ INT rogue with Evasion, Improved Evasion, and destiny-based Reflex boosts will already be doing extremely well with trap saves (though I recall having been slammed by Epic 3BC traps when slightly underlevel-undergeared). So I wouldn't say the +4 Reflex is "utterly worthless" to all rogues so much as it is something that only matters in Ghost of a Chance and Prove Your Worth. I'm not sure I'd want to waste our capital with the Devs on a capstone because we can't run through traps in 2 quests.

Without knowing the details of your post's line of questioning, I can take a guess that possibly you're vetting something like a +1 DC to Assassinate at level 18 and +1 at level 20.

I can see this doing a couple of positive things in rewarding a pure or 18-rogue build:

1. uber geared out 36 pt. builds could spend a few APs or ED points on a little versatility, instead of scrounging up the last couple points of INT from Harper or Shadow Dancer. A well thought out build might even sacrifice the best DC for a still-respectable DC and splash 2 Fighter, 1 Cleric, go Legendary Dreadnought, or what have you. (Currently there may be players who do some of these things but at a slightly heavier toll to DC.)

2. less then uber geared out, 32 pt. build toons would not be left out from obtaining a good assassinate score if they did pick up all the INT enhancements.


Speaking of the level 18 core, I've read a number of well articulated posts from rogue players regarding the level 18 core: Lethality and how Vorpal is pretty sad for the core before capstone. I admit I've posted about it myself (though can't vouch for how well articulated it is :-)). Have any of those posts about Vorpal = 100 dmg been compelling to the design team? Or is it a difficult coding issue more than anything?

Thanks!

[CThruTheEgo]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

I'd settle for this. I would prefer to see lethality (the level 18 core) improved along the lines that several have suggested. I also think a better option for the capstone is dropping the +2 dex and raising the int bonus to +4. Now that dex to assassinate is off the table, it really doesn't make sense to have the +2 dex there, and increasing the int bonus has the added effect of increasing assassinate DC while also increasing damage and reflex save by 1.

I would not want to see more than a couple DCs added though. Maybe 1 at 18 and 2 at 20, at most.

I'd be interested to know what you think of my suggestions in this post (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/456558-Rogue-Assassin-Changes?p=5564762&viewfull=1#post5564762) Sev, particularly the gradual removal of the sneak speed penalty for assassins as part of the first 5 cores and changing it so measure the foe stacks fade 1 every 6 seconds instead of all after 10 seconds. They have both had a positive reception from the community but I haven't yet heard your thoughts regarding them.

Thanks for the continued discussion Sev.

[HatsuharuZ]

We thought about it, but having fighters add more to Assassinate than Rogue didn't feel right.

Sev~

Rogue past lives do not currently improve assassinate, do they? If they don't, could they be changed to do so?

[nokowi]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

This would allow 18 rogue 2 paladin with no fail DC's. Hello Divine Grace and Assassadin!

I prefer a small timer drop over a DC bump.



Drow:
20 = Base Int
+7 Level 28
+6 Tome
+2 Ship Buff
+11 Item
+3 Insightful Item
+1 Globe of Imperial True Blood Augment
+6 Enhancements: +2 Assassin, +2 Rogue 20, +2 Harper
+3 Feats: +2 Completionist, +1 Epic Feat
+3 Epic Destiny: Shadowdancer
_________________________
62 Int (This is what I am using now with DC 66 + 5 MtF = DC 71)

Assassinate DC
10
+20 Rogue
+26 Int
+4 Item: Dark Diversion
+6 Shadowdancer Stealthy
_______
66 + 5 MtF = 71

This can be booster further by:

+2 Int from Enhancements: I can drop 4 Melee Power and add in +2 Int from Enhancements in Drow Racial and Mechanic Trees.
+3 Int from Shadowdancer: Take all 6 +1 Int's and drop neg energy immunity, drop 2 ranks of Lithe, and drop 2 ranks of shrouding strike
+1 Int from Twist: Twist in +1 Int from another destiny.

Int = 68 DC = 69 + 5 MtF = 74

add Epic Litany to my gear set-up (+2 Int)

Int = 70 DC = 70 +5 MtF = 75

Add Yugo Pot (+2), DDO Store Pot (+2), 5 Abishai cookies (+4 but only +2 counts because litany is also profane)

Int = 76 DC = 73 + 5 MtF = 78

Epic Litany of the Dead wont stack with cookies, so DC 78 is my max without dropping trapping skills. DC = 79 is my max if I drop trapping. (add another +1 Drow Racial Int, add 2 More Harper Int, Drop the +1 Mechanic Int).

[dualscissors]

Rogue past lives do not currently improve assassinate, do they? If they don't, could they be changed to do so?

The one thing that sticks out to me about this line of thought is that it's assassin-centric. TAs and Mechanics might want their own share of the pie and don't care if their non-existent Assassinate goes up +1.

[dualscissors]

This would allow 18 rogue 2 paladin with no fail DC's. Hello Divine Grace and Assassadin!



Rogues should have to pass a criminal background check to splash pally! Welcome to the convo Nokowi.

[nokowi]

Rogues should have to pass a criminal background check to splash pally! Welcome to the convo Nokowi.

Dang It! And I was already building my new toon...

[slarden]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

Why not just put both in there?

[slarden]

The one thing that sticks out to me about this line of thought is that it's assassin-centric. TAs and Mechanics might want their own share of the pie and don't care if their non-existent Assassinate goes up +1.

That plus the people that do all the grinding aren't the ones having problems with DC. Adding +1 assassinate for each rogue past life would just increase the gap between the haves and have-nots. Although building an end-game DC caster is quite a long task and everyone seems to have accepted it.

[Full_Bleed]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

Definitely onboard with this.

[davmuzl]

Why not just put both in there?

I think he means that players don't consider it worth enough to invest into it and therefor it needs some additional benefit.

[ToastyFred]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

+2 to Assassinate for each of the last two Core abilities (+4 total to Assassinate for staying pure) sounds right to me.

Someone earlier suggested +1 to Assassinate for each of the last two Cores abilities but I thought that was a bit light.

A compromise could be +1 to Assassinate for the Level 18 Core and a +2 to Assassinate added to the Capstone ability would be something I could live with. It creates a REAL incentive for staying pure.

[nokowi]

As CThrU said, DC's are relatively easy to get outside of Stormhorns. Unless you have every piece of gear, you are not going to try and solo EE stormhorns quests like me. In a group, you don't need auto-success DC's. Just go attack a mob that has agro on someone else. If you fail, they are not even going to turn around and look at you.

As a new player, you may have to go for all Int to get really reliable EE DC's. You could also play EH for a while. As you find items, you get more build choices. This is exactly how a game should play! I saw an earlier post that items don't matter in DDO. They do to assassins right now. You should drool over another +1 resist or +2 more int. You could also get by with lower DC's and play intelligently in a group. You will do fine.

[HuneyMunster]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

This would be much appreciated, maybe +1 for 18 and +1 or 2 for 20. Though I would prefer for 18 core the vorpal effect adds paralyses to living enemies that cannot be killed. This mimics the other part to D&D's Death Attack that has option to chose to either assassinate(kill) or paralyses that renders the target helpless similar to ghoul touch. Base the dc on the assassinate dc or just some formula including rogue level and int mod..


Would it also be possible to take another look at Epic Muffled Veneer. Currently it gives +2 to assassinate while the mythic version gives +4. A +2 can already be found on a level 15 item, though race restricted to Shadar Kai and a level 20 Epic midnight Greetings. Maybe increase non-mythic version to +3.

[ToastyFred]

You could also get by with lower DC's and play intelligently in a group. You will do fine.
Possibly.

Playing in a group isn't really going to make up for a low Assassinate DC. If it's low as a soloer, it's low in a group. The only thing adventuring in a group changes is what happens when you fail on an assassinate attempt. In a group, they're there to pick up your slack. If you're soloing, you could very well die depending on the situation.


Regardless, Rogue Assassins should lend itself well as a soloer. Sneaking around, avoiding certain monsters/situations, and killing a mob or two here and there is something soloers do and it's something Rogue Assassins do best. If you're playing in a group, most likely you're not going to get much of a chance to do what you do best.

[nokowi]

1st Life Human:
18 = Base Int
+7 Level 28
+3 Tome
+2 Ship Buff
+10 Item
+3 Insightful Item
+8 Enhancements: +2 Assassin, +2 Rogue 20, +2 Harper, +1 Human, +1 Mechanic
+3 Feats: +1 Epic Feat
+6 Epic Destiny: Shadowdancer
_________________________
58 Int

Assassinate DC
10
+20 Rogue
+24 Int
+2 Item
+6 Shadowdancer Stealthy
_______
62 + 5 MtF = 67 DC 1st life toon

From here you can loot a Dark Dviersion for 2 more
You can buy/loot a +5 or +6 Int Tome
You can buy/loot a globe of imperial blood off the AH.

DC=70 or 71 1st life toon having run 1 raid 20 times (or getting lucky earlier on a loot drop). Why is this not enough?

[Thar]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

What?? reflex save is always good? people need to play ee's and then see how good their reflex is.

that being said,

yes Assasin dc at one or both of those cores would be a good improvement.

[depositbox]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

<3

i see you have found that coup/assassinate/qp are for gimps and flavor runners. good man. now fix my qp so i can play my flavor build. ty.

[nokowi]

Possibly.

Playing in a group isn't really going to make up for a low Assassinate DC. If it's low as a soloer, it's low in a group. The only thing adventuring in a group changes is what happens when you fail on an assassinate attempt. In a group, they're there to pick up your slack. If you're soloing, you could very well die depending on the situation.


Regardless, Rogue Assassins should lend itself well as a soloer. Sneaking around, avoiding certain monsters/situations, and killing a mob or two here and there is something soloers do and it's something Rogue Assassins do best. If you're playing in a group, most likely you're not going to get much of a chance to do what you do best.

I have 1 word for you:

Web


You don't need an assassinate DC to succeed if you have a improved traps + disable device. Assassinate just speeds things up if you use it effectively.

[Full_Bleed]

Again, this is standard for a DC based build. Have you ever built a DC based build?
I disagree and think this is a false equivalency. DC based builds are for DC's that affect more than ONE ability. They usually affect a spectrum that define the character. A PM or Enchantment Sorc gains more than the success of ONE spell with a big DC investment.

At any rate, I can appreciate the DC increase discussion going on now.

[jaggyjag]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

It's good to hear you want pure rogues to have a way to have better DC's, what needs to be done is that the Assassinate DC needs to be based on a skill just as Coup is.

Could you please explain clearly, I mean really explain why you are not willing to give Assassins that same consideration to make them on par with others?

The Class is Assassins, not Dps'ers and so many of us want to be able to Assassinate at the same level of our contemporaries like the Bard.

If you could just take a moment to actually explain why skill based DC was okay for Bards but not for Assassins I would be happy to let this drop, but until them I can only find this confusing and irrational.

Please explain Sev, please.

[Dreppo]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

The reflex save bonus is not worthless. I think you should keep that in.

I personally do not think you should use the level 18 core and level 20 as a means of solving the Assassinate DC problem. Assassinate is but one ability in Assassin, an important one yes, but still just one ability. Not every Assassin (even ones with 18+ rogue levels) builds to maximize Assassinate. Some may prefer to maximize general DPS. This is especially true of STR-based and DEX-based builds. By incorporating Assassinate DC boosts into the high level cores, you are 1) further cementing DC-centric Assassin builds as the only viable Assassin builds; 2) further widening the gap between INT-based builds and non INT-based builds since only INT-based builds can reach the top Assassinate DCs; and 3) crowding out other more general benefits that could go into the high level cores (a non DC-centric Assassin loses out on the proposed +4 reflex to pay for DC-centric Assassins getting more DC which doesn't help me at all).

I much prefer other approaches to solving the Assassinate DC problem. You've already said you'd like to approach it through itemization. That works.

Another approach is through general tactics DC. Now I know you just said you don't favor that approach because you could splash fighter and end up with a higher Assassinate DC which seems wrong. But consider these counterpoints:

1) You're incorrect that you can get a higher DC by splashing fighter. Note that the fighter tactics increase comes at tier 2. The best you can achieve is the same DC as pure rogue by going 18/2. Kensei gives you +3 DC, but you lose 3 DC from two rogue levels plus the capstone. And you have to spend 11 AP in Kensei vs the pure rogue spending 1 AP on the capstone, a difference of 10 AP.
2) Monk benefits from general tactics DCs for Quivering Palm. If this doesn't seem wrong for Quivering Palm then it shouldn't seem for Assassinate.
3) Allow tactics DC means that itemization automatically comes into play, without having to introduce new specialized items just for Assassinate DC. Existing specialized Assassinate items (Midnight Greetings, Muffled Veneer) can be made to stack with the bonus from general tactics, much the same as Vertigo items stack with general tactics.

[jaggyjag]

We thought about it, but having fighters add more to Assassinate than Rogue didn't feel right.

Sev~

Agreed, because Assassins are the Assassins right? not fighters or barbs, or bards.

It is so clear from this thread and even your comments that the Assassination DC needs a way to be buffed, Clearly skill based is the way to go. The Rogue has the opportunity to spend Skill points in greater numbers than other classes, there are very few items to buff it, making it Tier 5 and requiring a investment of skill points is really the only suitable solution.

Otherwise, the other suggestions are just backdoor methods of trying to splash Assassin with something else and further dilute the class and make it nothing more than a splash class that cannot Assassinate as well as Bards, the real Assassins of DDO.. currently.

[brzytki]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

I'd rather see +DC only in the capstone and Lethality (core5) made more about DPS, like scaling SA or upgrading the built-in vorpal.

[davmuzl]

Agreed, because Assassins are the Assassins right? not fighters or barbs, or bards.

It is so clear from this thread and even your comments that the Assassination DC needs a way to be buffed, Clearly skill based is the way to go. The Rogue has the opportunity to spend Skill points in greater numbers than other classes, there are very few items to buff it, making it Tier 5 and requiring a investment of skill points is really the only suitable solution.

Otherwise, the other suggestions are just backdoor methods of trying to splash Assassin with something else and further dilute the class and make it nothing more than a splash class that cannot Assassinate as well as Bards, the real Assassins of DDO.. currently.

And making it skill based would mean that people would go pure?!

[slarden]

I disagree and think this is a false equivalency. DC based builds are for DC's that affect more than ONE ability. They usually affect a spectrum that define the character. A PM or Enchantment Sorc gains more than the success of ONE spell with a big DC investment.

At any rate, I can appreciate the DC increase discussion going on now.

This is a valid point, it is a huge investment for something you can only do once every 15 seconds at most.

If it's worth taking assassinate it's worth working on the DC though.

[CThruTheEgo]

I disagree and think this is a false equivalency. DC based builds are for DC's that affect more than ONE ability. They usually affect a spectrum that define the character. A PM or Enchantment Sorc gains more than the success of ONE spell with a big DC investment.

At any rate, I can appreciate the DC increase discussion going on now.

On an assassin, int increases to hit, damage, reflex save, skill points per level, trap skills, and assassinate DC. It's not just "ONE ability." There is a lot of synergy there that you seem to be ignoring.

[bbqzor]

Why is this not enough?

Because its kind of ridiculous to require an assassin to spend three of his six enhancement tree choices, a heroic feat (insightful reflexes or the rest of the build suffers), over half his destiny points (3 in stealthy, 12 in int), and all his epic feats, along with farming a specific item from a lv30 raid, just to make one T5 enhancement work?

Without any breathing room, this is literally the only choice. If it works or not is almost secondary to there being literally only one choice. Thats just bad design, wanting to use one enhancement tree shouldnt block out virtually every aspect of a character. Hence the continued attempts to provide some kind of alternative. I mean seriously... thats quite a bit more pressure on T5 functionality that literally anything else in the game.

I mean put another way, the epic tactics feat adds +2 DC to lots of things, and takes one single selection. Taking every epic int possible doesnt provide the same boost despite eating all your epic feats. Its not even close to fair returns... it really needs to ease up a bit one way or another.

[slarden]

As CThrU said, DC's are relatively easy to get outside of Stormhorns. Unless you have every piece of gear, you are not going to try and solo EE stormhorns quests like me. In a group, you don't need auto-success DC's. Just go attack a mob that has agro on someone else. If you fail, they are not even going to turn around and look at you.

As a new player, you may have to go for all Int to get really reliable EE DC's. You could also play EH for a while. As you find items, you get more build choices. This is exactly how a game should play! I saw an earlier post that items don't matter in DDO. They do to assassins right now. You should drool over another +1 resist or +2 more int. You could also get by with lower DC's and play intelligently in a group. You will do fine.

I consider Stormhorns leveling quests at this point.

What about ee Temple of Elemental Evil, ee Shavarath where all enemies have GH and ee Vale? Will DCs work there against non-immune enemies? That is all I care about at this point.

[nokowi]

I consider Stormhorns leveling quests at this point.

What about ee Temple of Elemental Evil, ee Shavarath where all enemies have GH and ee Vale? Will DCs work there against non-immune enemies? That is all I care about at this point.

We will have new items. I read someones post earlier that devs said itemization is their preferred method to boost DC's. Just ask for appropriate items scaled to the DC of the new content. Problem solved.

[davmuzl]

Because its kind of ridiculous to require an assassin to spend three of his six enhancement tree choices, a heroic feat (insightful reflexes or the rest of the build suffers), over half his destiny points (3 in stealthy, 12 in int), and all his epic feats, along with farming a specific item from a lv30 raid, just to make one T5 enhancement work?

Without any breathing room, this is literally the only choice. If it works or not is almost secondary to there being literally only one choice. Thats just bad design, wanting to use one enhancement tree shouldnt block out virtually every aspect of a character. Hence the continued attempts to provide some kind of alternative. I mean seriously... thats quite a bit more pressure on T5 functionality that literally anything else in the game.

I mean put another way, the epic tactics feat adds +2 DC to lots of things, and takes one single selection. Taking every epic int possible doesnt provide the same boost despite eating all your epic feats. Its not even close to fair returns... it really needs to ease up a bit one way or another.

It's not an ordinary T5 enhancement like a bit of a crit bonus. It is the most important ability that the Assassin gets and therefor it is justified that you have to invest more into it than into other T5 enhancements. On the other hand that means it should be treated as such and should imho have better options to increase the DC than comparable abilities. I agree however that especially when it comes to epic destinies it sucks when half the points go into int.

[nokowi]

Because its kind of ridiculous to require an assassin to spend three of his six enhancement tree choices, a heroic feat (insightful reflexes or the rest of the build suffers), over half his destiny points (3 in stealthy, 12 in int), and all his epic feats, along with farming a specific item from a lv30 raid, just to make one T5 enhancement work?

Without any breathing room, this is literally the only choice. If it works or not is almost secondary to there being literally only one choice. Thats just bad design, wanting to use one enhancement tree shouldnt block out virtually every aspect of a character. Hence the continued attempts to provide some kind of alternative. I mean seriously... thats quite a bit more pressure on T5 functionality that literally anything else in the game.

I mean put another way, the epic tactics feat adds +2 DC to lots of things, and takes one single selection. Taking every epic int possible doesnt provide the same boost despite eating all your epic feats. Its not even close to fair returns... it really needs to ease up a bit one way or another.

Did you ignore every other ability along the way?

How about all the synergies CThruU pointed out?

This is one of the reasons I argued against the new bard. Once you give players too much, they will continue to ask for it until it destroys the game. You can go play bard if you need any easy insta kill. The game play you want already exists. You can cross class at will. I have nowhere else to go if I want the level of skilled play required by assassin.

[nokowi]

Thanks all. I just wanted to pop on and make some points for why a faster assassinate timer is a better way to let assassin catch up with bard than higher DC's.

-Noko

[Artagon]

We thought about it, but having fighters add more to Assassinate than Rogue didn't feel right.

Sev~

Specifically adding assassinate to the Combat Mastery item list of things it affects would not directly benefit any one class more than rogue. In regard to increasing assassinate at rogue 18 or 20... You are already rewarding players for staying pure because non-pure rogues cannot achieve effective DCs, so making those cores add more seems like you are thumbing the nose at anyone that wants to build outside the cookie cutter. If anywhere, put it at the core 12 so that a player can still have some flexibility in build and remain viable. Also make the calculation DC 20 + 1/2 rogue level + int to make the scaling less horrific.

[redoubt]

Core 18: Lethality.

On a confirmed 20 from a sneak attack (not sneak mode) and assassinate check is made. If successful the mob dies and a 15 second cool down timer starts. Note: This would not likely benefit from MtF.

Core 20:
Add +2 Assassinate DC (Instead of 1 at 18 and 1 at 20).
Drop +2 dex
Add +2 INT (total 4)

Better? The capstone is just a collection of what many people seem to be saying. Lethality, triggering an assassinate check on a "vorpal" would be very unique and very much in the "assassin" flavor while adding dps/instakill in a new way (without creating any new mechanics.)

[amsharkwei]

Why not add Epic level in assassinate DC

DC=10+rogue level+Epic level+INT mod+Enhancement+Iteam

[Qezuzu]

My only problem with Assassinate is that it forbids any multiclassing. Assassin tree would be buffed if you could make viable 18/2, 16/2/2, 16/4, etc. builds that are centered around Assassin tree, and adding DC to the 18 and 20 cores doesn't help this. At the moment, the huge cost to multi-classing is the biggest problem with the tree IMO.

I would much rather see something like an increase in the base DC (i.e. from 10 to 12) or giving Assassinate DC to Rogue past lives. The close-to-max DC is only needed in a very small amount of content anyway, something that undergeared, first life Assassins shouldn't concern themselves too much with.

[ToastyFred]

I have 1 word for you:

Web


You don't need an assassinate DC to succeed if you have a improved traps + disable device. Assassinate just speeds things up if you use it effectively.

Assassins aren't Mechanics. Assassins prefer to kill stuff up close and personal. Traps are for wussies.

[bbqzor]

Did you ignore every other ability along the way?
No, if you bothered to read the thread you would see I had not. Feel free to go back and look, Ive said Int has many benefits tons of times. However:

Its the same investment a wizard makes to power every ability they get; all spells, enhancements, etc. A rogue is forced into the same situation to use just one thing. Yes, they can use int to dmg or ref or what not, yes. But those would work equally well through any number of other paths like dex, str, cha for pdk rogues, whatever. Point being, its overly demanding. And obviously so. Assassinate has one setup that makes it work, its devoid of any thought or skill on the players end, its the only combo that works.

Just because there is one working situation doesnt mean it shouldnt get fixed. Contemporary formula got shot down, Dex got shot down, now theyre at DC boost. Hopefully that will go in... because at this point there isnt really much left. If it gets left as is, I expect many rogues to change direction, its just not worth spending your entire character to get 1 kill every 15s if youre lucky, when you could take all those resources and do something else with much better returns. You could even stay in assassin and get better returns, 3 epic feats alone can get you a lot more bang than +3 int even if you stick with int for atk/dmg. Let alone the 15 destiny points.

I mean really, theres just no reason to look at this thing like the holy grail anymore. Back when shroud was new maybe. But new stealth mechanics interacting badly, an increase in numbers of mobs everywhere, and overly demanding dc just marginalize it too much. This thread is now over 40 pages, and there stopped being any feedback about much of anything besides assassinate dc like 20 pages ago. The only comments are "its fine using this one setup even in ee, when it doesnt work just dps" and then "fine but theres probably a better solution out there". I dont really have much more to add, so Im done until some kind of change happens. They need to just go ahead and pick a solution and go with it. Leaving it alone because no one could agree for 40 pages is just the community robbing itself. I hope the devs do something, it should be painfully obvious some change is needed. Just make a command decision and go. Cheers all.

[Torvaldsberg]

It seems that most of the top assassins agree that the DC isn't a big issue with a proper build, and that the biggest drawback to the current status is the lack of diversity...we can achieve the needed DC, we just can't do it in more than one or two ways.

It brings me back to one of my original thoughts: Why not give all classes a bonus by setting all enhancement costs to 1 per ability/upgrade once the character has 20 levels in a single class? This would allow some unused options and combinations to suddenly be achievable and wouldn't affect the early game at all. The extra points could make unusual racial choices or secondary tree choices much more meaningful, giving some much needed diversity.

[ToastyFred]

Core 18: Lethality.

On a confirmed 20 from a sneak attack (not sneak mode) and assassinate check is made. If successful the mob dies and a 15 second cool down timer starts. Note: This would not likely benefit from MtF.

Core 20:
Add +2 Assassinate DC (Instead of 1 at 18 and 1 at 20).
Drop +2 dex
Add +2 INT (total 4)

Better? The capstone is just a collection of what many people seem to be saying. Lethality, triggering an assassinate check on a "vorpal" would be very unique and very much in the "assassin" flavor while adding dps/instakill in a new way (without creating any new mechanics.)
Nice. I like this best of all the suggestions.

[nibel]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

I'm against this for a simple reason: Assassinate DC is working fine for heroic play.

I know this contradicts my previous statement that I was ok with dex-based Assassination. But my previous reason was to open dex-based builds as an option. Right now, it is go Int or go home. Giving options to dex is a good thing.

Just putting a +2 DC in a class archetype that already requires you to be a pure rogue to maximize DC will not encourage anything it was not already encouraging before.

The main problem with Assassinate DC is that once you reach level 20, your DC will stay almost the same for the entire epic levels. Assuming you already have Shadowdancer maximized, and an Epic Midnight Greetings, from level 20 to 28 you will get:

+2 from Dark Diversion or Mythic Muffled Veener
+1 from advancement stat raises (24, 28)
+2 from Intelligence gear (Int +11 instead of +8; Insightful Int +3 instead of +2)
=====
+5 DC at level 28

And at the same time, the mob saves from an EE level 20 quest (Sentinels, Carnival, King's Forest) raises much more than 5 points from endgame EE saves.

The balance on Assassination DC must be done on epic, not on Heroic. Allow epic levels (or even SHADOWDANCER levels) to count for Assassination DC, create epic-only Assassinate random items, I don't know. But messing with the last two capstones will only unbalance high heroic content if you want to run at level, and I doubt it will be enough to keep level 30 EE balanced for too long, because spell DC raises much faster than Assassinate DC, and both are fighting against the same save value.

[depositbox]

It brings me back to one of my original thoughts: Why not give all classes a bonus by setting all enhancement costs to 1 per ability/upgrade once the character has 20 levels in a single class?

Yes, Bards, Pally, and Barbs needed an additional 80AP.

[amsharkwei]

Coup de Grace is based on a Perform skill , but it's just a melee attack.

Assassnate need sneak to active , it's need move silently skill and hide skill , but Assassnate'd DC is not base on skill

Please explain Sev, please. WHY Assassnate need sneak but not skill based DC.

Shark~

[maddong]

Yes, orcs and giants. And, you don't have to believe me.

Maybe they get a spell save bonus. Is someone saying your wrong because they are using necro spells?

[Ayseifn]

Adding a point or two to the capstone means losing even one rogue level will cost you 3-4 DC which locks you into pure even more so than now. Sure you can now go into better EDs and have a bit more wiggle room with heroic AP but you're locked into pure int rogue with dagger/kukri. If the total bonus from the cores is higher than 2 per core though it may open up dex/str based for the uber geared, but again still stuck with dagger/kukri and still have to be pure.

What's needed is better scaling in epic, in heroic levels you're getting 1-3DC per level(no idea on average) but after the huge boost at 20 the scaling drops off to closer to averaging 0.5DC per level. I don't think there are any DC issues in heroic and assassinate may even be too good there, similar thing with the massive boost at 20 making low level epics easy enough but the lack of scaling in epics is where things hurt later on.

Edit: all that's really needed is some more high level items with a higher +assassinate really. A stacking ML: 28 augment, new item that's +6 or whatever doesn't really matter.

[Full_Bleed]

On an assassin, int increases to hit, damage, reflex save, skill points per level, trap skills, and assassinate DC. It's not just "ONE ability." There is a lot of synergy there that you seem to be ignoring.
Not ignoring them. All core stats have collateral benefits to a class. Collateral benefits from a high stat are not the driving force for "DC builds". There are very specific benchmarks for very specific spells/abilities that DC builds are building for. For the assassins, it's ASSASSINATE. DC Monks & Clerics, for example, don't take Wisdom for the will save.

I could also nit-pick and say that you might be reaching more than a little, too. Assassins don't need that much INT for traps. Everyone doesn't have Harper. And most would agree that the skillpoints certainly aren't "needed" or the driving force behind raising the relevant "DCs".

[Razor_Wit]

This could be the rogue version of a favored enemy....except Rogues would receive bonus to assassinate DC for their favored anatomy (race) due to their extensive knowledge of chosen races anatomy. If we can't raise assassinate DC overall...i'll settle for small improvements here @ there.

[redoubt]

I'm against this for a simple reason: Assassinate DC is working fine for heroic play.

I know this contradicts my previous statement that I was ok with dex-based Assassination. But my previous reason was to open dex-based builds as an option. Right now, it is go Int or go home. Giving options to dex is a good thing.

Just putting a +2 DC in a class archetype that already requires you to be a pure rogue to maximize DC will not encourage anything it was not already encouraging before.

The main problem with Assassinate DC is that once you reach level 20, your DC will stay almost the same for the entire epic levels. Assuming you already have Shadowdancer maximized, and an Epic Midnight Greetings, from level 20 to 28 you will get:

+2 from Dark Diversion or Mythic Muffled Veener
+1 from advancement stat raises (24, 28)
+2 from Intelligence gear (Int +11 instead of +8; Insightful Int +3 instead of +2)
=====
+5 DC at level 28

And at the same time, the mob saves from an EE level 20 quest (Sentinels, Carnival, King's Forest) raises much more than 5 points from endgame EE saves.

The balance on Assassination DC must be done on epic, not on Heroic. Allow epic levels (or even SHADOWDANCER levels) to count for Assassination DC, create epic-only Assassinate random items, I don't know. But messing with the last two capstones will only unbalance high heroic content if you want to run at level, and I doubt it will be enough to keep level 30 EE balanced for too long, because spell DC raises much faster than Assassinate DC, and both are fighting against the same save value.

We might be agreeing, but I'm not sure.

Adding a few points to DC in assassin, for me, opens up options in Epic Destiny. An assassin that wants to assassinate needs to run in Shadow Dancer. I don't know of any other build that is as restricted. Other builds get to choose from 2 or more destinies that are beneficial for them. Until you can afford to give up 6 INT from shadow dancer you cannot run anywhere else.

So to answer your comment about how adding DC to assassin does not encourage anything new, I reply with, it does encourage assassins to run in other destinies.

[redoubt]

On adding Assassinate DC for epic levels, consider adding them in proration to the rogue levels. (This is a concept I threw out for caster levels increases back when epic levels were new.)

Examples:

20 Rogue. Every Epic level adds one "rogue level".

18 Rogue/2 xxx. Every epic level adds .9 rogue level (rounded down.) At level 30, this would add 9 "rogue levels" and 1 xxx level.

10 Rogue/10 xxx. Every epic level adds .5 rogue level (rounded down.) At level 30, this would add 5 "rogue levels" and 5 xxx levels.

I quote rogue levels, because they are still epic levels but you use "rogue level" in the assassinate DC formula.

This might open up some additional multiclass options while still giving some reward for pure classes.

Note: This concept could also be used for ALL classes.

[nokowi]

No, if you bothered to read the thread you would see I had not. Feel free to go back and look, Ive said Int has many benefits tons of times. However:

Its the same investment a wizard makes to power every ability they get; all spells, enhancements, etc. A rogue is forced into the same situation to use just one thing. Yes, they can use int to dmg or ref or what not, yes. But those would work equally well through any number of other paths like dex, str, cha for pdk rogues, whatever. Point being, its overly demanding. And obviously so. Assassinate has one setup that makes it work, its devoid of any thought or skill on the players end, its the only combo that works.

Just because there is one working situation doesnt mean it shouldnt get fixed. Contemporary formula got shot down, Dex got shot down, now theyre at DC boost. Hopefully that will go in... because at this point there isnt really much left. If it gets left as is, I expect many rogues to change direction, its just not worth spending your entire character to get 1 kill every 15s if youre lucky, when you could take all those resources and do something else with much better returns. You could even stay in assassin and get better returns, 3 epic feats alone can get you a lot more bang than +3 int even if you stick with int for atk/dmg. Let alone the 15 destiny points.

I mean really, theres just no reason to look at this thing like the holy grail anymore. Back when shroud was new maybe. But new stealth mechanics interacting badly, an increase in numbers of mobs everywhere, and overly demanding dc just marginalize it too much. This thread is now over 40 pages, and there stopped being any feedback about much of anything besides assassinate dc like 20 pages ago. The only comments are "its fine using this one setup even in ee, when it doesnt work just dps" and then "fine but theres probably a better solution out there". I dont really have much more to add, so Im done until some kind of change happens. They need to just go ahead and pick a solution and go with it. Leaving it alone because no one could agree for 40 pages is just the community robbing itself. I hope the devs do something, it should be painfully obvious some change is needed. Just make a command decision and go. Cheers all.

Assassin takes more skill than any other build in the game right now. It takes understanding of what mobs do, what other players do, timing and position, risk vs reward, and gear and build decisions. Look at other people wanting a higher DC to solo (without gear) that refuse to use traps. These people are not going to be able to solo EE if you give them a DC 200 assassinate. They will need 100 more PRR, 400 more HP, cc, and heals to have a chance soloing EE content. All of this needs to be provided for free because these players don't want to go get gear. These players should just roll up a bard.

Assassin is an example how all builds should work, including learning how to play through progressively harder content while acquiring gear, and making very important build choices. Do you take 30 melee action power from TA, or improved scroll healing from mechanic? Do you max int or go for melee power? Do you build usable Will saves with slippery mind? Do you grab defensive roll from acrobat? What race and racial AP do you grab, and what are you willing to give up for these?

Players unwilling to take advantage of the abilities assassins do have should not be dictating changes to a class that works wonderfully. Every new piece of gear you find will make you that much better.

Instead of being jealous of bards, players should pity them. What gear could be added in the next update that a bard could possibly care about? As an assassin, I have much to look forward to.

[nokowi]

We might be agreeing, but I'm not sure.

Adding a few points to DC in assassin, for me, opens up options in Epic Destiny. An assassin that wants to assassinate needs to run in Shadow Dancer. I don't know of any other build that is as restricted. Other builds get to choose from 2 or more destinies that are beneficial for them. Until you can afford to give up 6 INT from shadow dancer you cannot run anywhere else.

So to answer your comment about how adding DC to assassin does not encourage anything new, I reply with, it does encourage assassins to run in other destinies.

Right now assassins have at least 5 distinct builds.

1. Int based DC (shadowdancer)
2. Dex based DPS (shadowdancer)
3. Fury of the Wild
4. Legendary Dreadnaught
5. Ranged Build

Giving 6 more Int or +3 DC will result in 2 builds:
1. Max DPS with assassinate
2. Ranged flavor build

There will now be 4x as many toons fighting for insta-kills. I can guarantee that slow moving stealth assassins will have no chance in this environment.

If would be sad to kill DC stealth assassin because players feel they have the right to have everything.

[nokowi]

I'm against this for a simple reason: Assassinate DC is working fine for heroic play.

I know this contradicts my previous statement that I was ok with dex-based Assassination. But my previous reason was to open dex-based builds as an option. Right now, it is go Int or go home. Giving options to dex is a good thing.

Just putting a +2 DC in a class archetype that already requires you to be a pure rogue to maximize DC will not encourage anything it was not already encouraging before.

The main problem with Assassinate DC is that once you reach level 20, your DC will stay almost the same for the entire epic levels. Assuming you already have Shadowdancer maximized, and an Epic Midnight Greetings, from level 20 to 28 you will get:

+2 from Dark Diversion or Mythic Muffled Veener
+1 from advancement stat raises (24, 28)
+2 from Intelligence gear (Int +11 instead of +8; Insightful Int +3 instead of +2)
=====
+5 DC at level 28

And at the same time, the mob saves from an EE level 20 quest (Sentinels, Carnival, King's Forest) raises much more than 5 points from endgame EE saves.

The balance on Assassination DC must be done on epic, not on Heroic. Allow epic levels (or even SHADOWDANCER levels) to count for Assassination DC, create epic-only Assassinate random items, I don't know. But messing with the last two capstones will only unbalance high heroic content if you want to run at level, and I doubt it will be enough to keep level 30 EE balanced for too long, because spell DC raises much faster than Assassinate DC, and both are fighting against the same save value.

Your post proves that level 20-25 DC's are really easy to achieve. I can go into GH at level 20 and have the highest kill count for most groups. Assassinate DC is not what holds players back. It's the lack of player skill, not understanding or being unwilling to use the abilities that do exist, and poor decision making that prevents players from succeeding at assassin. None of these will be fixed by raising DC's.

If people argued for a +4 DC item at lvl 24-25, and a better than +4 DC item in new content, these would be much more valid arguments than changing core rogue assassinate DC's.

[redoubt]

Right now assassins have at least 5 distinct builds.

1. Int based DC (shadowdancer)
2. Dex based DPS (shadowdancer)
3. Fury of the Wild
4. Legendary Dreadnaught
5. Ranged Build

Giving 6 more Int or +3 DC will result in 2 builds:
1. Max DPS with assassinate
2. Ranged flavor build

There will now be 4x as many toons fighting for insta-kills. I can guarantee that slow moving stealth assassins will have no chance in this environment.

If would be sad to kill DC stealth assassin because players feel they have the right to have everything.

1. INT based assassins I am familiar with.
2. I had a dex based assassin a long time ago. Cthru convinced me to go INT based instead (even before harper.) Can you elaborate on the existing DEX based assassins?
3. Can you please elaborate on the build that assassinates and runs in Fury of the Wild?
4. Same, but for LD.
5. Assassinate is a melee only skill.

Yes, people can use the assassin tree and not use the T5 assassinate ability. While I understand that the revamp is about more than one enhancement, all DC discussions are about that one enhancement. When I say that adding DC will open up epic destinies, I mean WHILE assassinating. I already ran a pure rogue assassin in DC; I just didn't bother to assassinate.

On the whole, I would argue that assassinate assassins have ONE build: INT based in Shadow Dancer.

I've said all along that all that is really needed (imo) is a couple points. When you compare a DC caster to an assassin you see:
..............caster.........assassin
level 15.....+4...............+2 (only shadar-kai)
level 20........................+2
level 24.....+1 aug
level 26.....+6
level 28.....+2 aug.........+4

................+8................+4 totals

Look back and you will see that I said a +6 item OR +1/2 augments would be good for gear. I've said that adding 1 or 2 points in the tree would be okay, but not more. I understand the rare space that you and CThru are trying to protect.

I also understand when some people want options for multi-class assassinates and other options and so I get involved there and discuss ideas.

Going back farther, I've been involved in the discussions about making stealth better. I even presented an idea for critical success and failure on assassinates. I love this class, but it needs help. Some help has arrived (agro is better) and some is coming, so I am hopeful.

p.s. slow moving stealth assassins already have no chance to assassinate in most groups. That's another thing I've lobbied for: sneak speed. Very early in this thread I even discussed allowing sneak speed to exceed normal speed. Its the only way to keep up with all the classes that have movement speed buffs. The only thing an assassin can do today is run with the group, pick an outlier that didn't die in the initial energy burst/dragon breath attacks and drop into to assassinate it while it moves to the intimi-paladin with 25% of its health left (and this means being in front of it because it is moving and the hit box is so small you have to anticipate the attack so that the server believes you were close enough.)

[Bobby88888]

Assassin takes more skill than any other build in the game right now. It takes understanding of what mobs do, what other players do, timing and position, risk vs reward, and gear and build decisions. Look at other people wanting a higher DC to solo (without gear) that refuse to use traps. These people are not going to be able to solo EE if you give them a DC 200 assassinate. They will need 100 more PRR, 400 more HP, cc, and heals to have a chance soloing EE content. All of this needs to be provided for free because these players don't want to go get gear. These players should just roll up a bard.

Assassin is an example how all builds should work, including learning how to play through progressively harder content while acquiring gear, and making very important build choices. Do you take 30 melee action power from TA, or improved scroll healing from mechanic? Do you max int or go for melee power? Do you build usable Will saves with slippery mind? Do you grab defensive roll from acrobat? What race and racial AP do you grab, and what are you willing to give up for these?

Players unwilling to take advantage of the abilities assassins do have should not be dictating changes to a class that works wonderfully. Every new piece of gear you find will make you that much better.

Instead of being jealous of bards, players should pity them. What gear could be added in the next update that a bard could possibly care about? As an assassin, I have much to look forward to.

Well said I couldn't agree more

[slarden]

Specifically adding assassinate to the Combat Mastery item list of things it affects would not directly benefit any one class more than rogue. In regard to increasing assassinate at rogue 18 or 20... You are already rewarding players for staying pure because non-pure rogues cannot achieve effective DCs, so making those cores add more seems like you are thumbing the nose at anyone that wants to build outside the cookie cutter. If anywhere, put it at the core 12 so that a player can still have some flexibility in build and remain viable. Also make the calculation DC 20 + 1/2 rogue level + int to make the scaling less horrific.

If they do this why would anyone ever want go pure?

[draven1]

I've said all along that all that is really needed (imo) is a couple points. When you compare a DC caster to an assassin you see:
..............caster.........assassin
level 15.....+4...............+2 (only shadar-kai)
level 20........................+2
level 24.....+1 aug
level 26.....+6
level 28.....+2 aug.........+4

................+8................+4 totals

Look back and you will see that I said a +6 item OR +1/2 augments would be good for gear. I've said that adding 1 or 2 points in the tree would be okay, but not more. I understand the rare space that you and CThru are trying to protect.



Casters got +12 DC from gears, not just +8.
You missed +1 DC from shadow robe, +1 DC from TF Staff or alchemical +2 wis one haneded weapon, +2 DC from Epic Deific Diadem.

so
..............caster.........assassin
............+12...........+4 totals


Even more for divines, exalted angel got buff(universal +3 DC).
............divine.........assassin
...........+15............+4 totals

Rage(!) can gives +1 more DC for divine(Acute Instinct)
............divine.........assassin
...........+16............+4 totals

I am sure turbine hate assassins :(

[Bobby88888]

What if the final two cores added to the Assassinate DC so pure rogues had a slightly easier time of getting to good DCs? Since players don't feel like the Reflex Save bonus is needed it might be good to add some value to the last cores?

Sev~

Adding more DC is something the class really needs to NOT happen but if you are dead set on it +1, 2 tops in capstone and no new items except at lvl cap 30 based on the game then. Making capstone +4 int/+0 dex is most I think should be done but leaving as is is good. Though letting you use some of the cool things from SD by freeing up 4 ED points isn't bad either (But really 1 ED point worth far more than 2 AP should be 1 each. :) sorry for off topic) but tread with care here.

What we do need though is SOME of the stuff from the following list (the rest would be some good ideas for SD ED revamp which hopefully comes along soon) but all are possibilities of cool/flavourful abilities for assassin I think. Gives a moderate DPS boost but already have lowest DPS of the rogues so won't hurt, bypass various enemy defences - anticipating their movements/finding chinks in armour, sneak speed for QoL, PRR in very small amount for survival.

-Faster sneak speed: To keep up better while sneaking, better yet roll back all the speed increases to everything and cap most at 10% but not likely to happen so better sneak speed.

-Fort bypass: Though we possibly have enough already and making it too easily accessible shouldn't be done, a little in the capstone would fit
-SA immunity bypass: Assassin's Trick is probably enough though as is.
-Dodge bypass: This is something that would be good and fits thematically, and with champions being able to get dodge would be handy in small amounts. On that note adding more enemies with dodge would be cool, I really like how champs can throw that curveball at you (unless your in Shiradi)
-PRR bypass: Seems more like something to chuck on great crossbows but also fits the assassin well.
-Assassinate: Bypasses DB, or can hit one more target, or can bypass EH/EE orange named DB only (the innate given for those diffs only, not other versions), etc.

-More SA dice: Mech get 4/5 in their tree tied into xbows, when combined with assassin they can exceed assassin SA dice while assassin can't dip over there for them. This is a rogue ability but assassins are the specialists there to me and I think this should be rectified.
-SA crits: Crits multiplier for SA damage on all crits or even just vorpals with large multiplier.
-Scaling SA damage: Via MP, static increase or scales from a stat.
-Increase SA die size: d8s, more?
-Reach: Increase reach with Daggers and Kukris *nice spot for this is Knife Spec but didn't include below.
-Int to damage: Staying in harper is fine though putting in a high core opens up a few options with spending APs outside of the 41 assassin 30 harper 8 mech set-up.

-PRR: small bonus, not much but since Poison weakness is 1 mob at a time and not 100% uptime unless CDs are changed a little more to help feels ok but not too much. ~10 tops.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So how would I incorporate some of those ideas?
listing changes only, if not listed not changed. This is assuming all changes in OP are done too unless rechanged here.

Core 1: Gain +1 SA die per core OR 1% dodge bypass per core (or add less SA dice but spread over the higher cores more than the lower ones to prevent dipping for big bonuses eg. 2, 4, 5 and 6. OR possibly move faster sneaking to cores if wanting to scale higher but not all at level 1 (Still need more SA dice spread over higher cores. Core 2,4,5 and 6)
Core 5: Lethality: On your SA damage is now effected by crits for 2x multiplier and vorpals for 3x multiplier (or just straight 2x for crits and vorps, or weapon multiplier but some may say is too much)
Capstone: One Assassinate idea from above, Remove Reflex bonus. (NOTE: If you do put +4 int on make as well as not instead of the changes I suggest here.

Tier 1: Stealthy: 30/60/90% sneak speed boost or incorporate into cores.
Tier 1: Poison Strikes: Drop AP cost to 1 and consider adjusting CD down to 10 seconds at least so can keep Assassin's Mark up constantly.

Tier 4: Killer: Gain a stack if something under effect of your Assassin's Mark dies. Remove when you kill gain a stack. *leave CD on poison Strikes alone with this option. (OR make stacks fade 1 or 2 at a time)
Tier 4: Weakening Strikes: If your doing the Rog level increasing reduction please add to OP to clarify otherwise I recommend that be added.

Tier 5: Measure the Foe: Make stacks fade 1 by 1 but with all going a little faster (say CThru's 6s per stack) or a 10s 1st stack with 3s each other stack.
Tier 5: Light Armour Mastery: PRR = 4/8/12 or 5/10/15 (assuming base PRR of armour changes go through for the -5 PRR ie +7 or 10 PRR here vs +1 proposed.)

Note: all the cores changes being the most important, cores are really lacking for the most part still. Fixing lethality and capstone and the SA dice imbalance introduced with Mech are top on my list, that will make me happy. SA speed also make me very happy but I can live without it, I have done for some time now and is only a QoL change needed in light of giving everyone else faster speeds.

Other than that thank you very much Sev for working on this and keeping us in the loop and asking our opinions.

EDIT: forgot MP got put on capstone already so removed it from suggestions *duh*

[Ayseifn]

Neglecting stat bonuses is fine because it'll generally be the same for both but skipping out on leveling based DCs skews things and doesn't show the whole picture.



..............caster.........assassin
level 15.....+4...............+2 (only shadar-kai)
............[b]+0-2*.........+5 from taking 5 more rog levels
level 20........................+2
................+x**...........+9***
level 24.....+1 aug
level 26.....+6
level 28.....+2 aug.........+4

................+8................+4 totals


* Add one to two depending on class because of heighten
** Add whatever your ED gives you, so someone better versed in making playable DC casters please add that in
*** 3 from 6 Int and 6 from Stealthy

Assassinate is also 30+ int mod +item while spells technically start lower but have a lot more things that can add to it. What assassinate needs is more things to supplement it at higher levels, so when Sev asked really early on if just adding a few extra +DC items would help I think he already nailed it. Just add in exceptional assassinate augs into heroic and epic ToEE and then maybe buff the +2's and +4's we already have and call it a day, especially the +4's as it's only really in later game that the DC really falls off(level 29 quests and up?).

[depositbox]

Your post proves that level 20-25 DC's are really easy to achieve. I can go into GH at level 20 and have the highest kill count for most groups.


then why do you take an hour to solo detour at cap? 0o

[slarden]

Assassin takes more skill than any other build in the game right now. It takes understanding of what mobs do, what other players do, timing and position, risk vs reward, and gear and build decisions. Look at other people wanting a higher DC to solo (without gear) that refuse to use traps. These people are not going to be able to solo EE if you give them a DC 200 assassinate. They will need 100 more PRR, 400 more HP, cc, and heals to have a chance soloing EE content. All of this needs to be provided for free because these players don't want to go get gear. These players should just roll up a bard.

Assassin is an example how all builds should work, including learning how to play through progressively harder content while acquiring gear, and making very important build choices. Do you take 30 melee action power from TA, or improved scroll healing from mechanic? Do you max int or go for melee power? Do you build usable Will saves with slippery mind? Do you grab defensive roll from acrobat? What race and racial AP do you grab, and what are you willing to give up for these?

Players unwilling to take advantage of the abilities assassins do have should not be dictating changes to a class that works wonderfully. Every new piece of gear you find will make you that much better.

Instead of being jealous of bards, players should pity them. What gear could be added in the next update that a bard could possibly care about? As an assassin, I have much to look forward to.

I don't agree that all builds should work the same way as assassin. I am glad the game has some easy-button builds for newer and casual players that can't make the time commitment. Swashbuckler, Paladin, Barbarian and Shiradi casters can be effective in EE content with minimal grinding for gear and past lifes. I take advantage of some of those easier builds with my less-accomplished alts I play to try out different builds. Assassin is a very advanced build and is that way quite by accident it seems. However, it does make Assassin fun and challenging to learn and play. I think it's good for the game to have some advanced builds like Assassin and DC caster. I hope assassin stays that way.

With that said, I disagree with itemization being the solution for DC balancing as content changes DC requirements. Every time new content comes out it will require regearing. I did get my Mythic Muffled Veneer, but I went to extreme lengths to get it. I had a dwarf barbarian sitting at 25 that did nothing since U14 except run impossible demands for guild renown while filling out destiny trees. I retooled him into an occult slayer barbarian so I could easily farm EE GOP. It worked - I spent more time leveling up and gearing my barbarian than it took to get the helm lol. Here is the thing - I didn't care about the +2 extra assassinate - I was mainly interested in the 9% doublestrike since the epic version had no doublestrike.

So now if our DCs are a bit low they are going to put out a cloak with +8 assassinate? I don't like that much at all. I think the reason this DC discussion has so much disagreement is because assassins are in the same place as PMs are where their DC works most places and isn't no-fail in a few higher level quests. New content could make their skill obsolete as it did when eGH first came out.

If the devs have a rough idea what save requirements will be when eAmarath and eVale come out I am fine if they buff the core a bit to account for that. Alternatively they should address it through augments so complete re-gearing isn't necessary every time they decide rogue DCs need a boost.

Constant re-gearing drives people to abandon end game and TR their character because even though each past life benefit is small they do add up over time and they never become obsolete even if they become less significant. It sounds like the mythic muffled veneer will be obsolete sooner rather than later which is fine, but it does make me think maybe I should just get some barbarian past lifes instead of running temple of elemental evil because that gear will be obsolete as soon eAmarath comes out and I'll have to completely regear.

Solving DC issues through itemization means don't bother with gear until the level cap is 30 in December or so.

I am not jealous of anyone or unwilling to take advantage of abilities. Before anyone claims I am a weak player, etc. I've played my rogue more than any character since Harper tree came out. When I saw that on Lam that was when I decided to take him off the bench. I took the easy button and did 12 iconic lifes once every 3 days to get completionist and have been etring about twice a week on average for several months. I farmed out the mythic muffled veneer, epic littany, shroud of ardent, epic quiver of alacrity, jibbers blade, mysterious bauble, a tier 3 thunderforged dagger and multiple intricate field optic int +3 because nobody was trading those and more. I am not a casual player asking for an easy button I just don't like the idea of itemization being the solution for DC. I think my existing build is as good or better than any I've seen in the forums except I did borrow a few good ideas I saw while browsing those. So no I am not asking for an easy button. I am not lazy and I am not unskilled.

My DC is sitting at a 74 right now as a sun elf which equals my PM's necro DC (I would consider my PM to be main character). That is without yugo pots or any temporary buffs and with only 4 points of int in Shadowdancer. With yugo pots, 6 points of int in Shadow dancer and 1 twist I can get my DC to 77, but it's not worth what I would be losing.

I run with a very diverse group that includes casual face-to-face friends and family in my guild as well as a few online friends in my guild. I also run with some extreme zergers/grinders that are among the most elite players on Sarlona. I think the game needs to work for both groups. Re-gearing is especially hard on casual players that play once or twice a week. This is why I hope the devs don't balance DC solely through itemization. If changing the core isn't done - please make assassinate bonus auguments available with maybe 2 less bonus than the best items in the game so playing end game isn't about full regearing every release.

[slarden]

then why do you take an hour to solo detour at cap? 0o

Probably because he isn't using a dual box that allows him to run to the end fight with no fighting other than clearing one group of mobs near the start and one orange named drow.

[Full_Bleed]

Instead of being jealous of bards, players should pity them. What gear could be added in the next update that a bard could possibly care about? As an assassin, I have much to look forward to.
I get that there is a school of players that wish all classes were "balanced" just like assassins. But they aren't. And they are not going to be.

Again, assassins aren't playing in a vacuum. They're playing with Bards, Paladins, Barbarians, Sorcs, Monks, and all the other classes that are about to get revamped. Making their hill harder to climb just because a certain school likes it that way isn't good game design. It's terribly uneven and inconsistent design.

I honestly think very well-geared and solo players are particularly numerous in that school as well, so I hope their input is looked at with the proper light.

I also find it disingenuous to act like once an assassin gets a respectable assassinate DC that they are *done*. They have at least 14 other seconds in every 15 to build on... and there is a LOT to build on in that space (not to mention all the *space* required to make that 1 second actually count... avoiding archers and aoe's, using terrain, staying hidden, catching unaware moving targets, cherry picking ideal targets, navigating traffic, etc, etc, etc.) The notion that the DC is what MAKES an assassin is silly. It's just the thing that can singularly obstruct one of the coolest parts of being one.

[Ayseifn]

If you buff assassin cores or whatever to compensate for their lack of end game DCs then they'll over perform in heroic and low level epics, get almost zero progression from 20-30 and at cap have a viable DC. Honestly, after hitting level 20 it'll just feel like your DC is going backwards.

On a melee that uses tactics I get +blah from a stat items(sometimes 2-3 stats depending on build), +2 from a feat, +blah from better stun/trip/sunder items and also +blah from exceptional stat/tactics items, and casters also get some good scaling with their shtick. For assassins it's just +2 item, +whatever for int items and maybe a feat burned on +1 int.


Solving DC issues through itemization means don't bother with gear until the level cap is 30 in December or so.

Kind of already resigned myself to this fate, ever since eGH loot just keeps getting better and making even 3 month old stuff junk.

[CThruTheEgo]

I prefer a small timer drop over a DC bump.

Can you elaborate on this? I could get behind an idea like this, but what exactly would you suggest?


Maybe they get a spell save bonus. Is someone saying your wrong because they are using necro spells?

No, they do not get a spell save bonus and I don't know Monkey-Boy's motivation for saying he doesn't believe me. He has not responded with anything to counter my claim, so there's no way to know his reasoning.


DC Monks & Clerics, for example, don't take Wisdom for the will save.

LOL! Bad example. Wis based monks also do garbage damage. There is not nearly the same level of synergy there as an int based assassin.


I could also nit-pick and say that you might be reaching more than a little, too. Assassins don't need that much INT for traps. Everyone doesn't have Harper. And most would agree that the skillpoints certainly aren't "needed" or the driving force behind raising the relevant "DCs".

Skills are certainly not a main motivator for going int based. I was merely pointing out the synergies. And anyone who is serious about playing an assassin at endgame, should spend the measly 400 TP for harper. It's just that good and you can easily get those TP through favor.


When you compare a DC caster to an assassin you see:
..............caster.........assassin
level 15.....+4...............+2 (only shadar-kai)
level 20........................+2
level 24.....+1 aug
level 26.....+6
level 28.....+2 aug.........+4

................+8................+4 totals

There is also a difference in the base DC formula. Spells are, at most, 19 from 10 + spell level, while assassinate is 30 (assuming pure) from 10 + rogue level. So I think it's fairly balanced in that regard. I also realize this limits multiclass options, however, but that doesn't concern me personally.

[nokowi]

1. INT based assassins I am familiar with.
2. I had a dex based assassin a long time ago. Cthru convinced me to go INT based instead (even before harper.) Can you elaborate on the existing DEX based assassins?
3. Can you please elaborate on the build that assassinates and runs in Fury of the Wild?
4. Same, but for LD.
5. Assassinate is a melee only skill.

Yes, people can use the assassin tree and not use the T5 assassinate ability. While I understand that the revamp is about more than one enhancement, all DC discussions are about that one enhancement. When I say that adding DC will open up epic destinies, I mean WHILE assassinating. I already ran a pure rogue assassin in DC; I just didn't bother to assassinate.

On the whole, I would argue that assassinate assassins have ONE build: INT based in Shadow Dancer.

I've said all along that all that is really needed (imo) is a couple points. When you compare a DC caster to an assassin you see:
..............caster.........assassin
level 15.....+4...............+2 (only shadar-kai)
level 20........................+2
level 24.....+1 aug
level 26.....+6
level 28.....+2 aug.........+4

................+8................+4 totals

Look back and you will see that I said a +6 item OR +1/2 augments would be good for gear. I've said that adding 1 or 2 points in the tree would be okay, but not more. I understand the rare space that you and CThru are trying to protect.

I also understand when some people want options for multi-class assassinates and other options and so I get involved there and discuss ideas.

Going back farther, I've been involved in the discussions about making stealth better. I even presented an idea for critical success and failure on assassinates. I love this class, but it needs help. Some help has arrived (agro is better) and some is coming, so I am hopeful.

p.s. slow moving stealth assassins already have no chance to assassinate in most groups. That's another thing I've lobbied for: sneak speed. Very early in this thread I even discussed allowing sneak speed to exceed normal speed. Its the only way to keep up with all the classes that have movement speed buffs. The only thing an assassin can do today is run with the group, pick an outlier that didn't die in the initial energy burst/dragon breath attacks and drop into to assassinate it while it moves to the intimi-paladin with 25% of its health left (and this means being in front of it because it is moving and the hit box is so small you have to anticipate the attack so that the server believes you were close enough.)

I still beat 95%+ of group players using a slow moving assassin on EE content. Your description seems to show that you don't understand the best way to play assassin - at the front of the group killing mobs at 100% health, not picking up leftovers. I had about 20 people send me tells in U22 when assassinate was broken because I was still destroying kill counts in groups. You're statements are incorrect if you are talking about EE content. You may not be knowledgeable of this because you have chosen not to build assassin DC. This is a player choice, not a design problem with the assassin prestige class. I can back up my statements by taking some kill count screenshots if required by the players in this thread.

Assassin DC is not going to make assassin more effective for skilled players. The limitation is the 15 second timer, not the DC. Assassins are both very powerful (while in stealth) and very weak (while out of stealth). Giving multi-class characters assassinate will give the one powerful ability assassins have to players without those weaknesses. Good bye stealth rogue. It would be a shame to lose the one pure 20 class that actually works.

[CThruTheEgo]

I get that there is a school of players that wish all classes were "balanced" just like assassins. But they aren't. And they are not going to be.

Again, assassins aren't playing in a vacuum. They're playing with Bards, Paladins, Barbarians, Sorcs, Monks, and all the other classes that are about to get revamped. Making their hill harder to climb just because a certain school likes it that way isn't good game design. It's terribly uneven and inconsistent design.

I honestly think very well-geared and solo players are particularly numerous in that school as well, so I hope their input is looked at with the proper light.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your posts make it sound like you are in the school of players that's asking for everything to be an easy button. As nokowi said, assassins are an advanced build. Making their hill easier to climb just because a certain school likes it that way isn't good game design.

Why do you have a problem with there being easy button options for those who want them and advanced build options for those who want them? It's the best of both worlds and I, for one, am glad that it is this way. It's a nice balance overall imo, and because it caters to a wider audience, good game design is exactly what it is.

[nokowi]

Can you elaborate on this? I could get behind an idea like this, but what exactly would you suggest?

In my opinion, skilled assassins are about 10-15% behind bards in raw killing ability. Skilled assassins might get about 1/2 of their kills from assassinate and 1/2 from DPS. Assassinate is currently on a 15 second timer. If assassins got a 20-30% boost to assassinate kills, they would be on par with bard for total kills. Because assassins can sometimes 2x assassinate, this might involve reducing the timer at the lower end by 20%. Dropping the assassinate timer from 15 to 12 seconds puts assassins on a competitive kill basis with bards, and would make them undoubtedly the supreme melee insta-killer.

[CThruTheEgo]

In my opinion, skilled assassins are about 10-15% behind bards in raw killing ability. Skilled assassins might get about 1/2 of their kills from assassinate and 1/2 from DPS. Assassinate is currently on a 15 second timer. If assassins got a 20-30% boost to assassinate kills, they would be on par with bard. Because assassins can sometimes 2x assassinate, this might involve reducing the timer at the lower end by 20%. Dropping the assassinate timer from 15 to 12 seconds puts assassins on a competitive kill basis with bards, and would make them undoubtedly the supreme melee insta-killer.

I like this idea. 12 seconds is certainly not too short. And this would effectively increase assassin dps (or lethality) without directly increasing their melee damage. You would end up using the defining ability more often, which means more time spent in sneak mode, so this fits very well thematically. It is a boost that emphasizes and enhances their playstyle.

How about it Sev, can we decrease the assassinate cooldown to 12 seconds?

[nokowi]

then why do you take an hour to solo detour at cap? 0o

Because assassinate was broken in U22 and I did not show the shortcut. I also only had T2 TF and was using rapiers. This was before melee power. DC had nothing to do with time. Waiting for a 15 second timer did.

My videos are not to show how awesome I am. They are to educate players. I may do 3 runs and post the version that is the most informative. This usually involves making some mistakes, showing how to avoid the mistake and also how to recover from the mistake.

[dualscissors]

In my opinion, skilled assassins are about 10-15% behind bards in raw killing ability. Skilled assassins might get about 1/2 of their kills from assassinate and 1/2 from DPS. Assassinate is currently on a 15 second timer. If assassins got a 20-30% boost to assassinate kills, they would be on par with bard for total kills. Because assassins can sometimes 2x assassinate, this might involve reducing the timer at the lower end by 20%. Dropping the assassinate timer from 15 to 12 seconds puts assassins on a competitive kill basis with bards, and would make them undoubtedly the supreme melee insta-killer.

A 12 sec. cooldown, which would simply be a fraction shorter than the current 15 sec. cooldown would improve the assassin's deadliness related to its namesake ability.

It would create additional incentive for assassins to try to get back into sneak mode during fights. (That incentive is there with a 15 sec. cooldown too, but the longer the cooldown, the more likely your party is finishing up the battle.)

It would also give a nod in acknowledging that the Assassinate ability is thematically the elite Killer's move vs. Coup de Grace. They'd both do the same damage (i.e. death). Coup would be the easy button for reaching DCs. Assassinate would cooldown 20% faster and if used tactically in the right situations can proc a double kill.

[bbqzor]

Assassin takes more skill than any other build in the game
No. It takes following one singular build, and then a lot of general game system knowledge which is useful and helpful to many classes. A wizard should know which mobs have which kinds of strong or weak saves, and which spells to use on each. Anyone can make use of stealth knowledge when making invis runs. Any melee benefits from knowing mob AI and hit arcs to dodge attacks with twitch. Etc. Assassin isnt the only thinking/skilled thing out there.

And muddying the waters by trying to make DC changes about skill isnt helpful. People knowing how to stealth or how to move to setup assassinate is irrelevant to the discussion. If they cant do those things, they wont be able to make use of more DC. Simply having more DC doesnt affect anyones skill or lack thereof. If youre bad at rogue, or good at rogue, more DC doesnt change either. It just clouds the issue.

A few points of DC isnt being considered over some poster saying "I want to solo EE for free". Its because without it, there is zero diversity at the top end, in addition to having a lesser success rate than comparable alternatives. With a better DC progression, you open up the options for people to diversify a bit, or maintain their monobuild and get a dc befitting a monobuild. Without more DC, no one makes any of those build decisions you mention... they just take more Int and then see what more int permits them to take on the way.

Knowing more doesnt magically make the DC go up... changes to cores would. Its not about the player or their skill, its about the math. So theyre considering adding some more to make the math better. Anyone who is bad at rogue will still be bad, because its only affecting DC. Anyone who is good can use it to either be better at that one thing, or branch out a bit and have an assassin that might actually be different from the one next to it. Both are positives, and neither adjusts the place for player skill.

[redoubt]

I still beat 95%+ of group players using a slow moving assassin on EE content. Your description seems to show that you don't understand the best way to play assassin - at the front of the group killing mobs at 100% health, not picking up leftovers. I had about 20 people send me tells in U22 when assassinate was broken because I was still destroying kill counts in groups. You're statements are incorrect if you are talking about EE content. You may not be knowledgeable of this because you have chosen not to build assassin DC. This is a player choice, not a design problem with the assassin prestige class. I can back up my statements by taking some kill count screenshots if required by the players in this thread.

Assassin DC is not going to make assassin more effective for skilled players. The limitation is the 15 second timer, not the DC. Assassins are both very powerful (while in stealth) and very weak (while out of stealth). Giving multi-class characters assassinate will give the one powerful ability assassins have to players without those weaknesses. Good bye stealth rogue. It would be a shame to lose the one pure 20 class that actually works.

I've actually been involved in several of the rogue threads with both you and CThru and other good assassins. I get how to play them. I've had several of them myself. I played a dex based assassin for a long time. Like you, I usually led the kill count. Later, CThru convinced my to go full INT spec, so I tried it and had the same experience, but with better DCs. When the Divine Crusader destiny came out, I switch from SD to that one and still led the kill count (without assassinating). I have an aggressive play style and I am almost always at the front. Same when I am playing a paladin, a sorc, a wizard, a ranger, etc. My play style results in my leading most kill counts (same as yours does), but what does that prove? That I move fast? That I have bonuses to damage when mobs are at low health? That I move to help finish off mobs that are already being worked on to be more efficient than 6 people each killing one mob at a time? That I am a kill stealer? That I have amazeballs DPS? It could be any of that, but likely it really just means very little.

When you specify EE content, is that because anything easier is just a zerg run and there is no need for assassinate because the groups never stop running? I have a couple of core groups I play with. We move slower than some, but faster than most. We have one set of characters we run where we run EE. Its not much slower than EH. The other sets are EH runners for the most part because they are not ready for EE. I get that EE is the only place where the assassinate DC matters (it easy every where else.) Was there some other point about it?

I get the idea that you don't wait for the group as an assassin. Get out front, assassinate and leave during the mop up so you can be out front again. (This of course leads to big kill counts due to play style.) Note: this works well as long as the people you leave behind don't need your help.

Lastly, could you please elaborate on the 5 assassin builds? I think the discussion on existing assassinate builds got lost while we had the tape measures out.

[nokowi]

No. It takes following one singular build, and then a lot of general game system knowledge which is useful and helpful to many classes. A wizard should know which mobs have which kinds of strong or weak saves, and which spells to use on each. Anyone can make use of stealth knowledge when making invis runs. Any melee benefits from knowing mob AI and hit arcs to dodge attacks with twitch. Etc. Assassin isnt the only thinking/skilled thing out there.

And muddying the waters by trying to make DC changes about skill isnt helpful. People knowing how to stealth or how to move to setup assassinate is irrelevant to the discussion. If they cant do those things, they wont be able to make use of more DC. Simply having more DC doesnt affect anyones skill or lack thereof. If youre bad at rogue, or good at rogue, more DC doesnt change either. It just clouds the issue.

A few points of DC isnt being considered over some poster saying "I want to solo EE for free". Its because without it, there is zero diversity at the top end, in addition to having a lesser success rate than comparable alternatives. With a better DC progression, you open up the options for people to diversify a bit, or maintain their monobuild and get a dc befitting a monobuild. Without more DC, no one makes any of those build decisions you mention... they just take more Int and then see what more int permits them to take on the way.

Knowing more doesnt magically make the DC go up... changes to cores would. Its not about the player or their skill, its about the math. So theyre considering adding some more to make the math better. Anyone who is bad at rogue will still be bad, because its only affecting DC. Anyone who is good can use it to either be better at that one thing, or branch out a bit and have an assassin that might actually be different from the one next to it. Both are positives, and neither adjusts the place for player skill.

Skill is what happens while you play the game. Build is what happens outside of the game.

The math says that DC's are fine through all of heroics and through about level 24-25. From level 25-27 DC's can be challenging for newer players. At level 28, +4 DC items become available and DC's are fine for current content. A solution in line with the math is to add a +4 DC item at level 24-25 that has much less other effects (if any) than the level 28 +4 DC items.

And yes, adding a few DC's will in fact ruin the game. Squishy stealth characters can not share the same space as toons that have everything. This will kill stealth assassin. Its hard to see how you can call this a positive. I never claimed a few DC increase was an easy button, I claimed it ruins an entire prestige class.

I see you equating build choices with different play. This is a huge fallacy. You are going to choose between dps and assassinate regardless of build. You are going to hit the same buttons regardless of your build. Let's not confuse what happens outside of the game with what happens inside of the game.

[CThruTheEgo]

No. It takes following one singular build, and then a lot of general game system knowledge which is useful and helpful to many classes. A wizard should know which mobs have which kinds of strong or weak saves, and which spells to use on each. Anyone can make use of stealth knowledge when making invis runs. Any melee benefits from knowing mob AI and hit arcs to dodge attacks with twitch. Etc. Assassin isnt the only thinking/skilled thing out there.

Knowing the game, game mechanics, mob behavior, etc. is useful for all classes, but it is essential to assassins. Not knowing those things on other builds means you will still contribute and still be successful, but it won't look as pretty. Not knowing them on an assassin, however, means you will struggle, fail, and be more of a burden than help to a group. In other words, assassin have a much smaller margin of error than any other build. That is why the assassin is an inherently more skillful playstyle.


A few points of DC isnt being considered over some poster saying "I want to solo EE for free". Its because without it, there is zero diversity at the top end, in addition to having a lesser success rate than comparable alternatives. With a better DC progression, you open up the options for people to diversify a bit

You are right about this and that's the reason why I'm not opposed to a few more DCs, but not too many. 1-3 more DCs means I'll be able to drop some int from enhancements, destiny, and/or twist, which will allow me to do more than I am currently able. It opens the door for more variety, and I think that's a good thing. Too many more will enable even more options, which can widen the margin of error and destroy the uniquely skillful playstyle of the assassin.

[nokowi]

I've actually been involved in several of the rogue threads with both you and CThru and other good assassins. I get how to play them. I've had several of them myself. I played a dex based assassin for a long time. Like you, I usually led the kill count. Later, CThru convinced my to go full INT spec, so I tried it and had the same experience, but with better DCs. When the Divine Crusader destiny came out, I switch from SD to that one and still led the kill count (without assassinating). I have an aggressive play style and I am almost always at the front. Same when I am playing a paladin, a sorc, a wizard, a ranger, etc. My play style results in my leading most kill counts (same as yours does), but what does that prove? That I move fast? That I have bonuses to damage when mobs are at low health? That I move to help finish off mobs that are already being worked on to be more efficient than 6 people each killing one mob at a time? That I am a kill stealer? That I have amazeballs DPS? It could be any of that, but likely it really just means very little.

When you specify EE content, is that because anything easier is just a zerg run and there is no need for assassinate because the groups never stop running? I have a couple of core groups I play with. We move slower than some, but faster than most. We have one set of characters we run where we run EE. Its not much slower than EH. The other sets are EH runners for the most part because they are not ready for EE. I get that EE is the only place where the assassinate DC matters (it easy every where else.) Was there some other point about it?

I get the idea that you don't wait for the group as an assassin. Get out front, assassinate and leave during the mop up so you can be out front again. (This of course leads to big kill counts due to play style.) Note: this works well as long as the people you leave behind don't need your help.

Lastly, could you please elaborate on the 5 assassin builds? I think the discussion on existing assassinate builds got lost while we had the tape measures out.

Assassin DC only excels in EE because of the party speed on EH, the higher DC's needed on EE (less mass insta kills primarily), and because of additional HP on mobs. I will congratulate you if your groups run EE as fast as EH. Reading the forums, 99.99% of players run EH specifically because it is faster (and complain about this loudly). If you have a single player zerging ahead of everyone on EE, gathering mobs and energy bursting the entire dungeon, well this is really an indictment of things being too easy rather than a design problem with assassin.

I am including DPS builds as assassin choices. Sorry for mixing terminology. Technically I should use "DC assassin" for DC builds and "Assassin" for any build taking lots of points in the Assassin tree. Right now you get to choose between DPS and Insta-Kill. Melee DPS can operate in Shadowdancer, Fury, or LD. You can go dex, str, or int to damage. Ranged dex builds can operate in Shadowdancer or Shiradi? You can ask Vinoe on Sarlona for real info here --> Executioners Shot is a form of ranged insta-kill. Melee Insta-kill is Int only by design.

[nokowi]

You are right about this and that's the reason why I'm not opposed to a few more DCs, but not too many. 1-3 more DCs means I'll be able to drop some int from enhancements, destiny, and/or twist, which will allow me to do more than I am currently able. It opens the door for more variety, and I think that's a good thing. Too many more will enable even more options, which can widen the margin of error and destroy the uniquely skillful playstyle of the assassin.

Do you need this DC at level 18?

If the answer is no, then DC is not needed in the assassin core. It should come through items. Placing the DC in the core build adds a huge risk without any additional benefit, except to those who want viable no-fail EE multi-class assassins.

Would a level 28 +6 DC item allow you to do all those things you desire?

If the answer is yes, then items, not core DC changes, are the way to go.

EDIT: If all the DC happens at level 20, I am far less opposed to this.

I will repeat again that assassin is not behind bard because of DC. You are going to need very good gear to be an effective assassin regardless of your DC. Allowing the DC before the rest of the gear/toughness is going to cause so many complaints when less skilled players still can't excel in EE content. It pushes players not ready for EE into EE. I predict a huge increase in complaints about assassin if DC is increased in the core assassin line.

A friendly 'your not ready for assassin yet" is a much better solution.

[CThruTheEgo]

Here is a summary of what I would like to see the level 18 and 20 cores become. Note that not all are my idea, just consolidating and reiterating what I like best so far.

Lethality: on vorpal, perform an assassinate using the assassinate DC. On failed save, target is killed instantly. On successful save, target takes 10d6 additional sneak attack damage.

Deadly shadow: +4 int, +1 assassinate DC, +4d6 sneak attack damage, 10 melee power.

Note that lethality's additional damage on a failed save comes out to be an average of 1.75 damage per hit, which is a negligible amount. On a successful save, which should be most of the time for a well built assassin, this effectively preserves and scales the ability into epic content.

Note also that the capstone would effectively provide a total of +2 DCs.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Here is a summary of what I would like to see the level 18 and 20 cores become. Note that not all are my idea, just consolidating and reiterating what I like best so far.

Lethality: on vorpal, perform an assassinate using the assassinate DC. On failed save, target is killed instantly. On successful save, target takes 10d6 additional sneak attack damage.

Deadly shadow: +4 int, +1 assassinate DC, +4d6 sneak attack damage, 10 melee power.

Note that lethality's additional damage on a failed save comes out to be an average of 1.75 damage per hit, which is a negligible amount. On a successful save, which should be most of the time for a well built assassin, this effectively preserves and scales the ability into epic content.

I like but Deadly Shadow - should it be INT or multiselector?

[CThruTheEgo]

Do you need this DC at level 18?

If the answer is no, then DC is not needed in the assassin core. It should come through items. Placing the DC in the core build adds a huge risk without any additional benefit, except to those who want viable no-fail EE multi-class assassins.

I would rather the level 18 core not provide a DC increase personally. I'd like to see it adapted based on one of the many suggestions presented in this thread. I like the idea someone mentioned of performing an assassinate check on vorpal. That essentially preserves the ability into epics.


EDIT: If all the DC happens at level 20, I am far less opposed to this.

I will repeat again that assassin is not behind bard because of DC. You are going to need very good gear to be an effective assassin regardless of your DC. Allowing the DC before the rest of the gear/toughness is going to cause so many complaints when less skilled players still can't excel in EE content. It pushes players not ready for EE into EE. I predict a huge increase in complaints about assassin if DC is increased in the core assassin line.

A friendly 'your not ready for assassin yet" is a much better solution.

I think it's much more appropriate in the capstone, but I'd be fine if it came from items also. I would agree with your argument here as well.

[CThruTheEgo]

I like but Deadly Shadow - should it be INT or multiselector?

I honestly don't know why it should be anything other than int. Dex based assassinate isn't going to happen, so there's no reason for a pure assassin to be anything other than int based. There might be a handful of players out there playing non-int based pure assassins, but they should be so rare that I don't think the capstone should cater to them. It's like asking for kensai's power surge to grant a con option instead of only str because someone might want to play a con based dwarf.

EDIT: Full disclaimer: I am in the camp that thinks if you're playing a dex or str based dps pure assassin, and not taking advantage of assassinate, then you're better off playing a completely different build (i.e. you're doing it wrong).

[dualscissors]

I would rather the level 18 core not provide a DC increase personally. I'd like to see it adapted based on one of the many suggestions presented in this thread. I like the idea someone mentioned of performing an assassinate check on vorpal. That essentially preserves the ability into epics.



I think it's much more appropriate in the capstone, but I'd be fine if it came from items also. I would agree with your argument here as well.

I appreciate the first point. I don't have a gauge for how sympathetic the Dev team is with that idea atm. At the least, Lethality currently is really really weak. (You may have heard me say that already!)

As for all of the DC boost happening in the Capstone, this seems to keep the status quo with respect to assassins having to be pure. Do you advocate this? Having a minor DC boost at level 18 would entice some to class splash since you'd recover a scrap of the DC that you are losing. Currently splashing a level or two is really hard on assassin DCs, perhaps to the point of pushing the DC just low enough that it loses its reliability.

[CThruTheEgo]

As for all of the DC boost happening in the Capstone, this seems to keep the status quo with respect to assassins having to be pure. Do you advocate this? Having a minor DC boost at level 18 would entice some to class splash since you'd recover a scrap of the DC that you are losing. Currently splashing a level or two is really hard on assassin DCs, perhaps to the point of pushing the DC just low enough that it loses its reliability.

Let me put it this way: I'm not opposed to pure being a near requirement. I'm honestly not sure what I think of a multiclass option as I've not really considered all the implications. I would not want to open the door for any overly powerful combinations.

[nokowi]

What do you all think about the idea of a DC increase by increasing the cap of MtF? (say if it stacks up to 7 times)

This would allow newer players to remain entirely in stealth and get an extra +2 DC for each assassinate over the current design.

18/2 Multi-class players might be able to assassinate when they approach with stealth, but they would have trouble switching to assassinate in the middle of a fight because of the lower DC due to the multi-class choice.

Sufficient Int builds / people with gear would have the easiest time switching between melee and assassinate because they can succeed without MtF.

I am not sure what my own opinion is yet... I think I would be a fan of a Rogue core 20 getting 10% faster sneaking as a capstone in this scenario.

[bbqzor]

Having +1 DC at 18 would work. Anyone can go 19/1 and be down 1 dc from where they are now due to no int from capstone. You could go 18/2 and be down 2 dc, a tradeoff in EE but with 2 levels you surely got something in trade. Then add another +1 DC at 20 for rogues staying pure. Pure rogues would go up 2 dc from where they are now. A +2/-2 DC spread from exactly how it is on live, which allows for rogues to range in level from 18-20 works.

Thats the simplest of approaches, and it checks out. It has DC in both cores, doesnt drastically change heroic for pure rogues, leaves room for future items if that actually comes to fruition, and is the smallest of possible impacts to EE capable builds (2 dc at most basically frees up a couple epic feats or enhancement choices, at least theres some small variety).

It may not be to everyones personal tastes but its not going to break anything. And they need to do something, the size of this thread is evidence of that. I would add more than that because I dont think being that conservative is going to change much build wise, but its in the ballpark and its easy on the devs.

[Saekee]

What do you all think about the idea of a DC increase by increasing the cap of MtF? (say if it stacks up to 7 times)

This would allow newer players to remain entirely in stealth and get an extra +2 DC for each assassinate over the current design.

18/2 Multi-class players might be able to assassinate when they approach with stealth, but they would have trouble switching to assassinate in the middle of a fight because of the lower DC due to the multi-class choice.

Sufficient Int builds / people with gear would have the easiest time switching between melee and assassinate because they can succeed without MtF.

I am not sure what my own opinion is yet... I think I would be a fan of a Rogue core 20 getting 10% faster sneaking as a capstone in this scenario.

Nice suggestion in that it also rewards a certain kind of playstyle

Whatever happened to the suggestion about adding the Sap feat somewhere in the enhancements? It works on any level mob

[slarden]

Dex based assassinate isn't going to happen, so there's no reason for a pure assassin to be anything other than int based.

Wait did I miss an announcement that this was off the table? I thought all that was said is that it wouldn't be in the first Lam build. I was already planning out my dex assassin build lol.

[redoubt]

Assassin DC only excels in EE because of the party speed on EH, the higher DC's needed on EE (less mass insta kills primarily), and because of additional HP on mobs. I will congratulate you if your groups run EE as fast as EH. Reading the forums, 99.99% of players run EH specifically because it is faster (and complain about this loudly). If you have a single player zerging ahead of everyone on EE, gathering mobs and energy bursting the entire dungeon, well this is really an indictment of things being too easy rather than a design problem with assassin.

I am including DPS builds as assassin choices. Sorry for mixing terminology. Technically I should use "DC assassin" for DC builds and "Assassin" for any build taking lots of points in the Assassin tree. Right now you get to choose between DPS and Insta-Kill. Melee DPS can operate in Shadowdancer, Fury, or LD. You can go dex, str, or int to damage. Ranged dex builds can operate in Shadowdancer or Shiradi? You can ask Vinoe on Sarlona for real info here --> Executioners Shot is a form of ranged insta-kill. Melee Insta-kill is Int only by design.

I did say almost as fast ;) . EE is harder, but the toons we run there are an order of magnitude better than our others.

So, I think we are mostly in agreement. We were so deep in the assassinate portion and looking for ways to expand builds that used the T5 assassinate ability when you brought up the 5 build types. Thank you for the clarification.

[redoubt]

Skill is what happens while you play the game. Build is what happens outside of the game.

The math says that DC's are fine through all of heroics and through about level 24-25. From level 25-27 DC's can be challenging for newer players. At level 28, +4 DC items become available and DC's are fine for current content. A solution in line with the math is to add a +4 DC item at level 24-25 that has much less other effects (if any) than the level 28 +4 DC items.

I could get behind that. My concern with not buffing the assassin tree is the worry that it will not be addressed later. We have to wait so long for the "SOON" coming fixes that when we are offered an upgrade to the assassin tree, I'm grabbing on with both hands. Sev has said he doesn't want to mess with Shadow Dancer right now. If they were doing both, I'd be with you on putting a small boost there instead.

They could also add +1 and +2 assassinate augments. These would be level 24 and 28 and would hold the DC increase until later in levels (where and upgrade in SD is available at level 20 once filled in.)


And yes, adding a few DC's will in fact ruin the game. Squishy stealth characters can not share the same space as toons that have everything. This will kill stealth assassin. Its hard to see how you can call this a positive. I never claimed a few DC increase was an easy button, I claimed it ruins an entire prestige class.



I assume this is due to being able to take other things that make the character more survivable? Could you elaborate on how you see a couple DCs removing that play style?

[redoubt]

You are right about this and that's the reason why I'm not opposed to a few more DCs, but not too many. 1-3 more DCs means I'll be able to drop some int from enhancements, destiny, and/or twist, which will allow me to do more than I am currently able. It opens the door for more variety, and I think that's a good thing. Too many more will enable even more options, which can widen the margin of error and destroy the uniquely skillful playstyle of the assassin.

Agreed.

Assassin is a VERY narrow focus right now. A small bump in DC would, in my opinion, allow a few options and a little diversity in builds. A player could still max out DC if they wanted, or they could go the other way and run in a different destiny while retaining a working (though not max'd) assassinate DC.

To be clear, I'm with him on the SMALL boost to DC. Nothing crazy.

[slarden]

They could also add +1 and +2 assassinate augments. These would be level 24 and 28 and would hold the DC increase until later in levels (where and upgrade in SD is available at level 20 once filled in.)


I like the idea of augments for assassinate in addition to items. If they make augments non-stacking and 2 less than the highest assassinate item in the game it's a reasonable trade-off. You can either wear the best items in the game or slot an augment with 2 less assassinate vs. the highest item in the game. It's the same trade-off we have now with stats, resistance, protection, prr, natural armor, etc.

This would provide the most build flexibility vs. just making a higher assassinate item every so often.

[CThruTheEgo]

Wait did I miss an announcement that this was off the table? I thought all that was said is that it wouldn't be in the first Lam build. I was already planning out my dex assassin build lol.

Post #777 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/456558-Rogue-Assassin-Changes?p=5563403&viewfull=1#post5563403). Sev said it wasn't in the current version of Lam and that he only asked the question about dex to get feedback. Based on that feedback, he seems to be leaning toward not implementing it. I don't see anything in his post that implies it will be in a future version of Lam.

1000th post!

[depositbox]

Probably because he isn't using a dual box that allows him to run to the end fight with no fighting other than clearing one group of mobs near the start and one orange named drow.

Or his 1 hour necro 4 solos. Or his 1 hour in foundation of discord. or his 1 hour in devil assault. or his.. well. you (should) get the point...


Because assassinate was broken in U22 and I did not show the shortcut. I also only had T2 TF and was using rapiers. This was before melee power. DC had nothing to do with time. Waiting for a 15 second timer did.


You cannot lead kill counts on that build. 1 hour to solo a dungeon rofl. foundation of discord can be completed 5 times in an hour. at least.

[dualscissors]

Or his 1 hour necro 4 solos. Or his 1 hour in foundation of discord. or his 1 hour in devil assault. or his.. well. you (should) get the point...



You cannot lead kill counts on that build. 1 hour to solo a dungeon rofl. foundation of discord can be completed 5 times in an hour. at least.

Eh, let's move away from posts of this nature. They don't really add anything.

[slarden]

Post #777 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/456558-Rogue-Assassin-Changes?p=5563403&viewfull=1#post5563403). Sev said it wasn't in the current version of Lam and that he only asked the question about dex to get feedback. Based on that feedback, he seems to be leaning toward not implementing it. I don't see anything in his post that implies it will be in a future version of Lam.

1000th post!
I didn't get the impression the decision is final, but you are probably right - it's certainly the easy choice and less work. If that is the case it would be great if he stated clearly so it's not a huge discussion point here and on Lam.

[CThruTheEgo]

Eh, let's move away from posts of this nature. They don't really add anything.

/seconded

There's been a lot of good constructive discussion throughout the entirety of this thread. Let's keep it to that.