Rogue - Assassin Changes

[Erofen]

*In response to making Assassinate use better of dex/int*

I would be happy to play my assassin like an assassin as an int build if they would kindly give int builds:

- insightful reflexes in the capstone
- int to hit and int to damage for free

This sounds reasonable if the int to damage is limited to the assassin weapons, and would provide more build diversity. I would also be in favor of this change. :)

[redoubt]

I like the idea of augments for assassinate in addition to items. If they make augments non-stacking and 2 less than the highest assassinate item in the game it's a reasonable trade-off. You can either wear the best items in the game or slot an augment with 2 less assassinate vs. the highest item in the game. It's the same trade-off we have now with stats, resistance, protection, prr, natural armor, etc.

This would provide the most build flexibility vs. just making a higher assassinate item every so often.

The whole point is for them to stack with other items, the same as they do for all the spell schools. This would be INSTEAD of adding higher DC items.

Option 1: Add higher DC items. This would be a total range of +1 to +6. All non stacking, but at various levels.

Option 2: Keep the highest item at +4 and add stacking augments of +1/+2. Still a total of +6.

In either case I'd like to see items start at +1 up to the highest +4/+6 spread throughout the levels.

[nokowi]

I assume this is due to being able to take other things that make the character more survivable? Could you elaborate on how you see a couple DCs removing that play style?

Pure 20 DC assassins are squishy because they rely on light armor and dodge chances without a chance to use AC or PRR>100. Stealth is currently used both to stay alive, as well as to maximize kills. If you allow a multiclass that removes this weakness, this build immediately will be become much more viable than using slow moving stealth.

The reason stealth is gone is that is that you don't need stealth to assassinate. You simply walk into the room 2nd, and hit the stealth button and hit the assassinate button on a mob with agro on someone else. Alternately, you can take advantage of the blinded condition to do the same (think of a fast moving monk with flash bang(ninja spy) or shadow lance (shadowdancer) that walks up and assassinates while the stealth rogue is still creeping into the room).

Mark my words, stealth is dead if you allow multiclass.

[slarden]

The whole point is for them to stack with other items, the same as they do for all the spell schools. This would be INSTEAD of adding higher DC items.

Option 1: Add higher DC items. This would be a total range of +1 to +6. All non stacking, but at various levels.

Option 2: Keep the highest item at +4 and add stacking augments of +1/+2. Still a total of +6.

In either case I'd like to see items start at +1 up to the highest +4/+6 spread throughout the levels.

Yeah that would be good. Or they can have regular assassinate augments that don't stack with assassinate items and exceptional assassinate augments that do.

My point is if they make a new item every so often in one slot with the best assassinate it will be pain to keep changing gear around. Helmet worked quite nice, but if they make the next item a bracer it's going to be a pain.

[Bobby88888]

In my opinion, skilled assassins are about 10-15% behind bards in raw killing ability. Skilled assassins might get about 1/2 of their kills from assassinate and 1/2 from DPS. Assassinate is currently on a 15 second timer. If assassins got a 20-30% boost to assassinate kills, they would be on par with bard for total kills. Because assassins can sometimes 2x assassinate, this might involve reducing the timer at the lower end by 20%. Dropping the assassinate timer from 15 to 12 seconds puts assassins on a competitive kill basis with bards, and would make them undoubtedly the supreme melee insta-killer.

This sounds like a nice thing to bring assassins back up a little in the insta kill department.

[dualscissors]

Pure 20 DC assassins are squishy because they rely on light armor and dodge chances without a chance to use AC or PRR>100. Stealth is currently used both to stay alive, as well as to maximize kills. If you allow a multiclass that removes this weakness, this build immediately will be become much more viable than using slow moving stealth.

The reason stealth is gone is that is that you don't need stealth to assassinate. You simply walk into the room 2nd, and hit the stealth button and hit the assassinate button on a mob with agro on someone else. Alternately, you can take advantage of the blinded condition to do the same (think of a fast moving monk with flash bang(ninja spy) or shadow lance (shadowdancer) that walks up and assassinates while the stealth rogue is still creeping into the room).

Mark my words, stealth is dead if you allow multiclass.

Which splashes/abilities for 1-2 levels are you imagining that will drastically improve survivability? Are you thinking of Fighter 1 for Heavy Armor proficiency? The splashes I'm thinking of are moderate boosts to self-healing and/or PRR but the rogue is enough behind that a splash build would just become "decent" in those departments. I think the survivability would help but not be good enough to brazenly strut into a pack of mobs - and stealth would still be effective and not dumped.

[amsharkwei]

The fighting style for assassin is "one hit , one kill" , that's why we need more assassnate DC.

If an assassin can't deal successful assassnate , he are just a Light-Armor-Fighter

[FlaviusMaximus]

The reason stealth is gone is that is that you don't need stealth to assassinate. You simply walk into the room 2nd, and hit the stealth button and hit the assassinate button on a mob with agro on someone else. Alternately, you can take advantage of the blinded condition to do the same (think of a fast moving monk with flash bang(ninja spy) or shadow lance (shadowdancer) that walks up and assassinates while the stealth rogue is still creeping into the room).

Mark my words, stealth is dead if you allow multiclass.

Is that meant to sound ominous? Because it sounds wonderful. Assassinate was so much more fun to use when it was jump, sneak for a quarter of a second, Assassinate, keep swinging, repeat.

[Qezuzu]

Pure 20 DC assassins are squishy because they rely on light armor and dodge chances without a chance to use AC or PRR>100. Stealth is currently used both to stay alive, as well as to maximize kills. If you allow a multiclass that removes this weakness, this build immediately will be become much more viable than using slow moving stealth.

The reason stealth is gone is that is that you don't need stealth to assassinate. You simply walk into the room 2nd, and hit the stealth button and hit the assassinate button on a mob with agro on someone else. Alternately, you can take advantage of the blinded condition to do the same (think of a fast moving monk with flash bang(ninja spy) or shadow lance (shadowdancer) that walks up and assassinates while the stealth rogue is still creeping into the room).

Mark my words, stealth is dead if you allow multiclass.

I simply don't understand your line of logic here.

Stealth IS dead. Approximately zero PUGs accommodate it. The only place you see stealth being used extensively is by players like you and I when soloing. And I don't use stealth because it's easier (I won't lie though, it is easier and it would still be easier if I had a 2 Pal splash or whatever), I use it because I enjoy it. Everyone who doesn't like using stealth when soloing, they don't play Rogue anymore.

Assassinate being effective on one, singular build, to me that just screams design flaw when compared to all the other abilities in DDO.

[slarden]

I simply don't understand your line of logic here.

Stealth IS dead. Approximately zero PUGs accommodate it. The only place you see stealth being used extensively is by players like you and I when soloing. And I don't use stealth because it's easier (I won't lie though, it is easier and it would still be easier if I had a 2 Pal splash or whatever), I use it because I enjoy it. Everyone who doesn't like using stealth when soloing, they don't play Rogue anymore.

Assassinate being effective on one, singular build, to me that just screams design flaw when compared to all the other abilities in DDO.

You can use stealth in a group, but the speed differential with the rest of the party does make it problematic. Rogues will be going from 75% normal speed to 90% normal speed if they take sneak speed + the new speed boost, but there is no way to keep up with other players running at full speed + speed boosts. I still use stealth as best I can.

I don't solo on my rogue much at all and I find the sneak speed to be problematic.

[draven1]

The fighting style for assassin is "one hit , one kill" , that's why we need more assassnate DC.

If an assassin can't deal successful assassnate , he are just a Light-Armor-Fighter

When twf heavy armored pally defender or barb on everlasting LD blitz can no save instakill on every 5% hit,
all of this discussion may not have any meaning.
Or druid swf+twf exploiter does it on faster pace.

Sadly, it's current status of DDO on live.

[Qezuzu]

You can use stealth in a group, but the speed differential with the rest of the party does make it problematic. Rogues will be going from 75% normal speed to 90% normal speed if they take sneak speed + the new speed boost, but there is no way to keep up with other players running at full speed + speed boosts. I still use stealth as best I can.

I don't solo on my rogue much at all and I find the sneak speed to be problematic.

Being in sneak is not stealth. Sneak is only useful in a group for building up Measure the Foe and being ready to Assassinate.

Stealth play is actively avoiding the attention of mobs, which doesn't happen when the group is killing everything at light speed.

[slarden]

Being in sneak is not stealth. Sneak is only useful in a group for building up Measure the Foe and being ready to Assassinate.

Stealth play is actively avoiding the attention of mobs, which doesn't happen when the group is killing everything at light speed.

If the group is killing everything at light speed I wouldn't think you are getting mob attention.

[FlaviusMaximus]

I have an off the wall idea.

Assassinate is really strongly tied to Rogue level and there is almost no wiggle room when it comes to building a character that wants to utilize the ability. That is problematic, in my mind, because it eliminates the best feature of this game - the customization. Right now, it's go single class or don't bother. With the proposed changes so far, I don't think this changes much.

What if assassinate was completely untethered to Rogue level but the cooldown was instead? For example, instead of the DC being 10 + Rogue level, what if the DC was simple base 30 and then the cooldown is decreased by 1 second at core 12, 2 more seconds at core 18, and 2 more seconds (for a total of 5) at core 20?

Doing this would still give single class Rogues a distinct advantage when it came to assassination but it would make building a lot more interesting.

[draven1]

Being in sneak is not stealth. Sneak is only useful in a group for building up Measure the Foe and being ready to Assassinate.

Stealth play is actively avoiding the attention of mobs, which doesn't happen when the group is killing everything at light speed.

Sneak is very good for positioning, it gives very good tactical benefits itself.

But, for current endgame-meta(mindless zerg-fest chaos), it's almost nothing.
Who cares it when mobs are 20+ on red DA situation for almost every encounter.

[Ayseifn]

I have an off the wall suggestion.

Assassinate is really strongly tied to Rogue level and there is almost no wiggle room when it comes to building a character that wants to utilize the ability. That is problematic, in my mind, because it eliminates the best feature of this game - the customization. Right now, it's go single class or don't bother. With the proposed changes so far, I don't think this changes much.

What if assassinate was completely untethered to Rogue level but the cooldown was instead? For example, instead of the DC being 10 + Rogue level, what if the DC was simple base 30 and then the cooldown is decreased by 1 second at core 12, 2 more seconds at core 18, and 2 more seconds (for a total of 5) at core 20?

Doing this would still give single class Rogues a distinct advantage when it came to assassination but it would make building a lot more interesting.

That'd open things up massively possible for level splits but doubt it'd do much for the AP spending side of things. At best you'd save 5 or so AP from not needing to hit 40 AP spent on the assassin tree for the capstone.

[nibel]

We might be agreeing, but I'm not sure.

Adding a few points to DC in assassin, for me, opens up options in Epic Destiny. An assassin that wants to assassinate needs to run in Shadow Dancer. I don't know of any other build that is as restricted. Other builds get to choose from 2 or more destinies that are beneficial for them. Until you can afford to give up 6 INT from shadow dancer you cannot run anywhere else.

So to answer your comment about how adding DC to assassin does not encourage anything new, I reply with, it does encourage assassins to run in other destinies.

I disagree. Someone that do not run in EE already do not care about the +3 DC on shadowdancer (the T1 twist is enough), but someone who DO run EE will get every single extra point in DC they can achieve. This will still pidgeonhole assassin builds into shadowdancer because Magister is an awful tree for rogues (and for casters, but I digress), Draconic don't offer much options either, and no other epic destiny gives you +int options.

If you want to take them out of this hole, the answer is not more DC on heroic enhancements. The answer is making the other EDs that allow you to pick Int to suck less. Or speed up the artificer ED and hope it works with melee attacks as well.


There is also a difference in the base DC formula. Spells are, at most, 19 from 10 + spell level, while assassinate is 30 (assuming pure) from 10 + rogue level. So I think it's fairly balanced in that regard. I also realize this limits multiclass options, however, but that doesn't concern me personally.

On the other hand, spells have many more ways to raise their DC than rogues. Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Active PL: Wizard, Epic Spell Focus, random focus items (up to +6), spell focus augments (+2), and I think you can get 2 or 3 DC from some unique items, as well.

This means build and itemization can make a spell DC go from 19 + int to 19+4+6+2+(2~3) = 33-36+int.

Rogues have a single item enhancement. That caps at +4. And only found in two rare items found in undead-based zones (rogues do not excel at fighting undeads). And that push their DC to 34+int.

It is kinda balanced if you look at the DC value only, but then you remember that assassinate is a single ability with a ton of conditionals, while a primary caster raising their DC buffs out their entire arsenal of spells. So, while the DC-based assassin can't assasinate any undead or deathwarded mob in that specific dungeon, the palemaster is cursing that he can't pull his big instakills, but is instead forced to use his not-optimal webs and disco balls and disintegrates and whatever.

IMO, Assassinate SHOULD have a higher DC than spells, simply from the fact that you can't assassinate as fast and as easily as a caster can cast. At heroics this is the scenario. Once you hit epics, Assassinate DC stagnates. And that should be fixed. In epic levels.

[redoubt]

I disagree. Someone that do not run in EE already do not care about the +3 DC on shadowdancer (the T1 twist is enough), but someone who DO run EE will get every single extra point in DC they can achieve. This will still pidgeonhole assassin builds into shadowdancer because Magister is an awful tree for rogues (and for casters, but I digress), Draconic don't offer much options either, and no other epic destiny gives you +int options.

If you want to take them out of this hole, the answer is not more DC on heroic enhancements. The answer is making the other EDs that allow you to pick Int to suck less. Or speed up the artificer ED and hope it works with melee attacks as well.


I agree that people not running EE probably don't worry about the 3 DC from 6 INT in SD.

Now, if we had, say, 3 more DC. You could skip spending 12 destiny points on INT; this allows you run in a melee destiny that does better damage. I.e. LD or DC. Adding INT to those other trees would not be needed.

[SealedInSong]

I simply don't understand your line of logic here.

Stealth IS dead. Approximately zero PUGs accommodate it. The only place you see stealth being used extensively is by players like you and I when soloing. And I don't use stealth because it's easier (I won't lie though, it is easier and it would still be easier if I had a 2 Pal splash or whatever), I use it because I enjoy it. Everyone who doesn't like using stealth when soloing, they don't play Rogue anymore.

Assassinate being effective on one, singular build, to me that just screams design flaw when compared to all the other abilities in DDO.

Will it be obnoxious to have this in triplicate? Oh well. I can't stress enough how against the spirit of DDO it is to have an ability only work in one build, and encourage everyone to cookie cutter said build or the ability won't work in endgame.



Assassinate being effective on one, singular build, to me that just screams design flaw when compared to all the other abilities in DDO.

Assassinate being effective on one, singular build, to me that just screams design flaw when compared to all the other abilities in DDO.

Assassinate being effective on one, singular build, to me that just screams design flaw when compared to all the other abilities in DDO.

[nokowi]

I simply don't understand your line of logic here.

Stealth IS dead. Approximately zero PUGs accommodate it. The only place you see stealth being used extensively is by players like you and I when soloing. And I don't use stealth because it's easier (I won't lie though, it is easier and it would still be easier if I had a 2 Pal splash or whatever), I use it because I enjoy it. Everyone who doesn't like using stealth when soloing, they don't play Rogue anymore.

Assassinate being effective on one, singular build, to me that just screams design flaw when compared to all the other abilities in DDO.

I have no idea why you think assassin is for solo play. It is much more powerful in groups. My pace is 5-10x faster in a group. I am much more effective in a group because I always get sneak attack, and I can focus on the mobs where my abilities are most useful. If you think stealth is dead, you don't know how to play stealth assassin. It does take a bunch of skill that many players don't seem to have.

Assassin does not have one singular build. Just because you have one class does not mean you are not choosing abilities from 5 different trees. People prioritize different things, and have different play styles that causes them to pick different things. This is also true when you look at Shadowdancer epic destiny.

Right now you have to choose between more melee dps and higher DC. There will be less gameplay (not build) choices when the answer becomes to maximize dps WITH no fail DC.

I can guarantee you that if 100 players copied my build, they would have much different results in an EE quest. Even among skilled players, there is a big variety in how we move through a dungeon and what specific choices we make. While there many not be as many build choices as for multiclass toons, there are much more gameplay choices with assassin that with any other class, and these choices have much bigger consequences than with any other class. Please don't confuse build choices with gameplay choices. They are different things.

[SealedInSong]

I have an off the wall idea.

Assassinate is really strongly tied to Rogue level and there is almost no wiggle room when it comes to building a character that wants to utilize the ability. That is problematic, in my mind, because it eliminates the best feature of this game - the customization. Right now, it's go single class or don't bother. With the proposed changes so far, I don't think this changes much.

What if assassinate was completely untethered to Rogue level but the cooldown was instead? For example, instead of the DC being 10 + Rogue level, what if the DC was simple base 30 and then the cooldown is decreased by 1 second at core 12, 2 more seconds at core 18, and 2 more seconds (for a total of 5) at core 20?

Doing this would still give single class Rogues a distinct advantage when it came to assassination but it would make building a lot more interesting.

I could get behind this, but would have to think about it more.

One thing that I'd like to cite is Stunning Fist. Stunning Fist is by far one of the most effective CC and helpless skills in the game.

cost: 15 ki (centered), prereq: flurry of blows, cooldown = 6 sec, DC = 10 +half charlvl + wis mod + item mods vs Fort.

Its immune opponents are largely similar to assassinate (non-living targets, constructs, etc).

PREVIOUSLY, stunning fist was tied to monk levels, and now it's not. Lots of folks moaned and cried about it, but now I think most players are just happy to build another wis-based character using stunning fist that's not a pure monk!

I've made stunning fist (monk splashed) rogues, druids, clerics, favored souls, fighters, paladins, rangers, and wizards! Of the non-restricted classes (bard/barb), only sorc and arti have I not used to build a stunning fist character.

Make assassins diverse!
Imagine the diversity and fun we could have if [endgame viable] assassins were all of the above and more, instead of:

max [int/dex] pure rogue wearing [mythic muffled veneer/dark diversion] in [shadowdancer / less likely: magister]

That short list is very boring.

[nokowi]

Will it be obnoxious to have this in triplicate? Oh well. I can't stress enough how against the spirit of DDO it is to have an ability only work in one build, and encourage everyone to cookie cutter said build or the ability won't work in endgame.

Yes

A class with MORE critical gameplay choices than any other build is a sign of what is right in DDO, not what is wrong.

[SealedInSong]

Please don't confuse build choices with gameplay choices. They are different things.

However, I still think that the game would benefit from some kind of mechanic that allowed the assassinate ability to be used creatively, instead of essentially require builds to be made from the same core materials and spiced up with "gameplay" choices.

The fact of DDO is that people can derive enjoyment from build choices AND gameplay choices.

My stunning fist example is a historical DDO turning point where I feel a previously pigeonholed ability was opened up for creative use in build choices AND gameplay choices.

The multiplicative factor of that is what keeps the game of alive for me, and for many others, I'd imagine.

All this said, I am not confident Sev or the dev team look at making assassinate a more diverse ability a priority for their engineering capacity.

I do think it would be a good nut to crack, though, for the simple reason that more build [AND gameplay] choices are why I keep spending money on this game.

[SealedInSong]

Yes

A class with MORE critical gameplay choices than any other build is a sign of what is right in DDO, not what is wrong.

No

As in my stunning fist example, there are MORE gameplay choices to be made when I build 8+ stunning fist characters based on different classes. Are you building 8 assassins? Perhaps so, though I find that unlikely.

I have two assassins. I have eight stunning fist characters (or had, in various lives). That's enough of a comparison for me.

I respect your opinion but if stunning fist went back to the narrow avenue that assassins have to walk, then I'd have 1/4 the satisfaction across that set of characters.

400% more gamplay choices for the open-ended ability.

[nokowi]

However, I still think that the game would benefit from some kind of mechanic that allowed the assassinate ability to be used creatively, instead of essentially require builds to be made from the same core materials and spiced up with "gameplay" choices.

The fact of DDO is that people can derive enjoyment from build choices AND gameplay choices.

My stunning fist example is a historical DDO turning point where I feel a previously pigeonholed ability was opened up for creative use in build choices AND gameplay choices.

The multiplicative factor of that is what keeps the game of alive for me, and for many others, I'd imagine.

All this said, I am not confident Sev or the dev team look at making assassinate a more diverse ability a priority for their engineering capacity.

I do think it would be a good nut to crack, though, for the simple reason that more build [AND gameplay] choices are why I keep spending money on this game.

Players have an infinite number of builds to experiment with. This includes DC insta kill through bard. You dont need rogue to do this.

You suggest that assassins should also have stunning fist because you like it.
Others want a no fail DC without any real build investment (skill based DC).
Others want fast movement.
Others want instant full heals (everybody else has them, right?)
Others want the same melee dps as top tier builds

Pretty soon all characters can assassinate, and every single DDO build plays exactly the same.

Just because you like an ability does not mean that every class needs to have it. Having different classes be able to do different things, with different strengths and weaknesses leads to variety. Giving everyone everything does not.

[nokowi]

No

As in my stunning fist example, there are MORE gameplay choices to be made when I build 8+ stunning fist characters based on different classes. Are you building 8 assassins? Perhaps so, though I find that unlikely.

I have two assassins. I have eight stunning fist characters (or had, in various lives). That's enough of a comparison for me.

I respect your opinion but if stunning fist went back to the narrow avenue that assassins have to walk, then I'd have 1/4 the satisfaction across that set of characters.

400% more gamplay choices for the open-ended ability.

If I watched you play your 8 stunning fist toons, would I notice the difference in your game play? Not build differences, but how you move through the dungeon, how you assess targets, etc. It seems likely you are confusing hitting the same set of buttons with the exact same game play and different build choices with actual differences in game play.

If you are bored with assassin, it sounds like you have plenty of other toons to play. Go play your 8 other stunning fist toons. You certainly have not made a good argument that there are not enough stunning fist builds, and therefore we need more. These exist. Go play them.

Most classes have many build choices and then game play is just players trying them out.

For assassin, the variety comes through the game play choices that you make as your skill, understanding, and character power change. It also depends on your tolerance for risk vs reward, your character dps, character toughness, willingness to use traps, and as your party composition changes. There is much more variety here than just testing your latest build for awesomeness.

[Bobby88888]

There is already a lot of diversity within Assassins.
A quick search on the forums and I came up with 7 different assassin builds and some of them are fairly out of the box. (I didn't look through any of them to see how good they were but probably all work decently, some better than others sure but some were very distinct flavour builds) and non of these are the same as my Assassin either.

Races, fighting styles, feats, enhancements, EDs and or ED setups all vary. Sure maxing out Int is a priority for all of them but then again it is the same for a DC wiz and no one is asking for them to be able to get the same DCs if they go 12 wiz/8 x (Example isn't that great but you can see the point.)

Making Assassinate available for everyone is the opposite of what we need. That waters assassin down rather than shoring it up. Kind of like coup de grace but with still a little investment for DC.

[slarden]

I could get behind this, but would have to think about it more.

One thing that I'd like to cite is Stunning Fist. Stunning Fist is by far one of the most effective CC and helpless skills in the game.

cost: 15 ki (centered), prereq: flurry of blows, cooldown = 6 sec, DC = 10 +half charlvl + wis mod + item mods vs Fort.

Its immune opponents are largely similar to assassinate (non-living targets, constructs, etc).

PREVIOUSLY, stunning fist was tied to monk levels, and now it's not. Lots of folks moaned and cried about it, but now I think most players are just happy to build another wis-based character using stunning fist that's not a pure monk!

I've made stunning fist (monk splashed) rogues, druids, clerics, favored souls, fighters, paladins, rangers, and wizards! Of the non-restricted classes (bard/barb), only sorc and arti have I not used to build a stunning fist character.

Make assassins diverse!
Imagine the diversity and fun we could have if [endgame viable] assassins were all of the above and more, instead of:

max [int/dex] pure rogue wearing [mythic muffled veneer/dark diversion] in [shadowdancer / less likely: magister]

That short list is very boring.

I don't think stunning blow is precluded from a rogue build and actually it's arguably better than toughness for sure if you build for it.

My character currently has a 68 int and 31 str so my stunning blow with boots of the innocent (which fits my gear very well and costs me nothing really) my stunning DC would be 59

10: base
6: Legendary Tactics Twist
12: Stunning from Boots of the Innocent
5: Combat Mastery from Consuming Darkness
10: Strength Modifier (starting str of 8)
14: Int Modifier from Know the Angles
3: Fighter past lifes (I currently only have 1)

This isn't no fail, but it's going to work reasonably well in most content (obviously not stormhorns or even some GH quests), but realistically I can't fit in the twist anyhow. I already have a rough time choosing between sense weakness, daunting roar, balanced attacks, damage boost 30% and cocoon. Coccon isn't going anywhere. Balanced attacks I wouldn't really consider unslotting. Daunting roar is so useful in tougher EEs to get out of a jam since you can't control what the rest of the party does. So this means giving up 30% damage boost which would be tough since my goal is to be optimized for boss fights. Sense weakness I mainly use when running easier EE and EH to speed things up a bit in place of daunting roar which is only really needed for more difficult content.

Still, stunning is not precluded at all on a rogue build you just have to give up something to do it and it won't be anything like a monk's stunning fist in terms of effectiveness. Still, if you gear for cc procs, taking stunning blow, balanced attacks, paralyzing on tier 2 of your TF weapon and daunting roar you can get good cc on an assassin - you can even have good cc without stunning blow for that matter. My cc is actually better at lower epic levels due to gear and weapons.

[Faltout]

make it so that Death Block/Ward doesn't stop assassinate.
So much this.

My mechanic recently picked up assassinate (at level 17), because mechanic tree had nothing else to offer and assassinate was just there. I have a good INT, deceptions, bluffs and shadow dagger.
So yesterday I was playing with a full group the LoD chain. While in a group, performing sneak attacks is easier, so I didn't have to worry about deceptions/bluffs/blindness but since assassinate can kill 1 maybe 2 monsters per 1 or 2 encounters, I had to choose wisely. Of course by the time I made my choice (it takes about 2 seconds to spot a target), the party had already taken damage and all monsters would have about half health. So I mostly went for the champions and the monsters in front of me that had more than half health. Imagine my frustration when the champions showed a deathward icon on top when I tried to assassinate (I didn't have the time to also check champion buffs) or a random drow show the deathward icon because a priestess was nearby. After a failed assassinate, I would switch to my repeater and start getting away from the fight to mitigate damage. I would maybe hit one monster with sneak attacks and then the fight was over.

So, to recap, it took me about 2 seconds to spot a target for assassinate, then about 2 seconds to get close to it, then about 1 second to make sure sneak is activated, then 2 seconds to realize assassinate failed, then 1 second to switch to repeater and then about 2 seconds of DPS against a monster. That's 10 seconds of minimal contribution to the fight. And the fight only lasts about 10 seconds.

Then there was another moment with a Hezrou in Spinner. I was determined to assassinate him. So I use assassinate, but it wasn't a sneak attack. Ok, run around for the cooldown. Then use shadow dagger to blind, wait for him to perform one attack so he won't hit me, get close to him, activate sneak... hit assassinate... oh, sneak never activated... activate sneak... activate assassinate... bah, no longer blind... run around for cooldown... use shadow dagger... avoid one attack... get close to him... I'm dead. I was so focused on getting the assassinate to work that I hadn't noticed that my health was so low because I allowed him to hit me with oh so many attacks while getting sneaky and close to him.
The funny thing is I would have easily killed him if I used my repeater. With bluff, shadow dagger and deception on item and on repeater, my DPS was high enough. And I would have stayed out of range.

I don't know what is wrong with assassinate... Is it me? Am I taking too long to make decisions of who to kill and where to move? Is it the switch to sneaking that is taking too long? Is it the blindness that allows them to hit me breaking sneak?
Maybe dropping the sneak requirement for assassinate is best. Keep sneak attack requirement, but drop sneak. (Still make it so it doesn't break sneak) That would allow an assassin to perform extremely well in parties assassinating every time it's on cooldown.

On another note, don't release items with a boost to assassinate bigger than what the tree can provide. And move that speed while sneaking to the assassin tree for god's sake. It's an assassin that needs speed.

[Erofen]

And move that speed while sneaking to the assassin tree
That was already in the plan. They are replacing the sneak speed in thief acrobat with general speed.

[nokowi]

So much this.

My mechanic recently picked up assassinate (at level 17), because mechanic tree had nothing else to offer and assassinate was just there. I have a good INT, deceptions, bluffs and shadow dagger.
So yesterday I was playing with a full group the LoD chain. While in a group, performing sneak attacks is easier, so I didn't have to worry about deceptions/bluffs/blindness but since assassinate can kill 1 maybe 2 monsters per 1 or 2 encounters, I had to choose wisely. Of course by the time I made my choice (it takes about 2 seconds to spot a target), the party had already taken damage and all monsters would have about half health. So I mostly went for the champions and the monsters in front of me that had more than half health. Imagine my frustration when the champions showed a deathward icon on top when I tried to assassinate (I didn't have the time to also check champion buffs) or a random drow show the deathward icon because a priestess was nearby. After a failed assassinate, I would switch to my repeater and start getting away from the fight to mitigate damage. I would maybe hit one monster with sneak attacks and then the fight was over.

So, to recap, it took me about 2 seconds to spot a target for assassinate, then about 2 seconds to get close to it, then about 1 second to make sure sneak is activated, then 2 seconds to realize assassinate failed, then 1 second to switch to repeater and then about 2 seconds of DPS against a monster. That's 10 seconds of minimal contribution to the fight. And the fight only lasts about 10 seconds.

Then there was another moment with a Hezrou in Spinner. I was determined to assassinate him. So I use assassinate, but it wasn't a sneak attack. Ok, run around for the cooldown. Then use shadow dagger to blind, wait for him to perform one attack so he won't hit me, get close to him, activate sneak... hit assassinate... oh, sneak never activated... activate sneak... activate assassinate... bah, no longer blind... run around for cooldown... use shadow dagger... avoid one attack... get close to him... I'm dead. I was so focused on getting the assassinate to work that I hadn't noticed that my health was so low because I allowed him to hit me with oh so many attacks while getting sneaky and close to him.
The funny thing is I would have easily killed him if I used my repeater. With bluff, shadow dagger and deception on item and on repeater, my DPS was high enough. And I would have stayed out of range.

I don't know what is wrong with assassinate... Is it me? Am I taking too long to make decisions of who to kill and where to move? Is it the switch to sneaking that is taking too long? Is it the blindness that allows them to hit me breaking sneak?
Maybe dropping the sneak requirement for assassinate is best. Keep sneak attack requirement, but drop sneak. (Still make it so it doesn't break sneak) That would allow an assassin to perform extremely well in parties assassinating every time it's on cooldown.

On another note, don't release items with a boost to assassinate bigger than what the tree can provide. And move that speed while sneaking to the assassin tree for god's sake. It's an assassin that needs speed.

You just need some more practice. You are willing to evaluate your own game play (rather than trying one thing, quitting and saying assassin is broken) so I am sure you can do well with assassin. In spinner, a newer assassin DC player should follow another player. As soon as the mob runs (or teleports) to the other player, you assassinate them.

Another idea would be to repeat the same quest and just stay in stealth the entire time. After you better learn how to select targets, you can work on popping in and out of stealth and paying attention to your health bar.

Lastly, you may or may not have the DC for spinner, depending on your build choices. I am remembering a DC of 60 being usable off the top of my head. The cats and spiders are easy to assassinate while the Hezrou take some DC.

As we can see from your post, Assassin requires skilled play. It is definitely not for everyone. It is very rewarding when you master it.


Best,

Noko

[Qezuzu]

I have no idea why you think assassin is for solo play.

I specifically said stealth, not the Assassin tree.


If you think stealth is dead, you don't know how to play stealth assassin. It does take a bunch of skill that many players don't seem to have.

It's pretty rude to just flat out say I don't know how to use stealth. I'm not going to rattle off about the quests I've completed with minimum kills but I'm pretty **** sure I know it at least as well as you do.

Unless you can show otherwise (all of your vids are solo) I simply don't see the utility of stealth in a group. There's no use for sneak beyond very basic things like Measure the Foe, Assassinate and avoiding aggro at the start of an encounter, and somehow 18/2 builds with working Assassinate threaten this.


Assassin does not have one singular build. Just because you have one class does not mean you are not choosing abilities from 5 different trees. People prioritize different things, and have different play styles that causes them to pick different things. This is also true when you look at Shadowdancer epic destiny.

Right now you have to choose between more melee dps and higher DC. There will be less gameplay (not build) choices when the answer becomes to maximize dps WITH no fail DC.

Slight variations in where AP is spent is not an entire new build.

As far as I can see there's precisely one good Assassin build, and that's pure 20 INT-based. Usually Human or Drow. Either Shadowdancer or a melee tree (Dreadnought/Crusade, I commonly bounce between these three trees so I don't consider it a very integral part of a build because unlike feats, base stats and class levels it can be changed on the fly for little cost). After that it's very minor choices like taking Wand and Scroll Mastery or not, or using Dark Diversion or Mythic Muffled Veneer.

I am not literally saying that every Assassin in the game is identical, but it's completely asinine to say that it's a tree is anything resembling flexible. One of DDO's selling points is the diversity in which you can make a character, and Assassin is missing out on that which, to me, is poor design.

And higher melee DPS and high Assassinate DC go hand in hand because of Harper. The only exception is Shadowdancer over Dreadnought/Crusader (and the choice is obvious for me because Shadowdancer is garbage, Blitz alone is worth +4 INT). If Shadowdancer ever gets improved to the point where it's a competitive melee tree that also provides INT, which is probably going to happen eventually, then there goes that 'build diversity'.


I can guarantee you that if 100 players copied my build, they would have much different results in an EE quest. Even among skilled players, there is a big variety in how we move through a dungeon and what specific choices we make. While there many not be as many build choices as for multiclass toons, there are much more gameplay choices with assassin that with any other class, and these choices have much bigger consequences than with any other class. Please don't confuse build choices with gameplay choices. They are different things.

This is hardly something that's unique to Assassin. "More gameplay choices with assassin that with any other class" is also something that's extremely subjective, not to mention vague.


Players have an infinite number of builds to experiment with. This includes DC insta kill through bard. You dont need rogue to do this.

You suggest that assassins should also have stunning fist because you like it.
Others want a no fail DC without any real build investment (skill based DC).
Others want fast movement.
Others want instant full heals (everybody else has them, right?)
Others want the same melee dps as top tier builds

Pretty soon all characters can assassinate, and every single DDO build plays exactly the same.

Just because you like an ability does not mean that every class needs to have it. Having different classes be able to do different things, with different strengths and weaknesses leads to variety. Giving everyone everything does not.

I'm not some idiot who wants Assassinate DC to be based off Hide score or whatever. I simply think that adding an additional +4 or so DC somewhere that's not capstone, whether it be an item or the lvl18 core or t5 enhancement or the base DC or a combination would be a positive change that would allow people to experiment with Assassin builds that aren't so incredibly samey and min/maxed. Working DC's without remaining pure is a feature that virtually every other ability in the game, including caster spells, enjoys. But here you're rattling off about how very basic multiclass splits will kill stealth or ruin the tree's indentity and playstyle or whatever garbage, and that's what it is, alarmist garbage, it doesn't make the slighest sense. Here's a pro-tip, 2 paladin splash doesn't make you into an unkillable tank, it won't allow you to ignore basic concepts like managing aggro, it won't allow a solo Assassin to not have to use Web traps.

[nibel]

I agree that people not running EE probably don't worry about the 3 DC from 6 INT in SD.

Now, if we had, say, 3 more DC. You could skip spending 12 destiny points on INT; this allows you run in a melee destiny that does better damage. I.e. LD or DC. Adding INT to those other trees would not be needed.

So we are agreeing here. I just believe this extra DC should be epic only, not something in the assassin cores. Either on gear or epic destiny or epic feats.

[nokowi]

I specifically said stealth, not the Assassin tree.



It's pretty rude to just flat out say I don't know how to use stealth. I'm not going to rattle off about the quests I've completed with minimum kills but I'm pretty **** sure I know it at least as well as you do.

Unless you can show otherwise (all of your vids are solo) I simply don't see the utility of stealth in a group. There's no use for sneak beyond very basic things like Measure the Foe, Assassinate and avoiding aggro at the start of an encounter, and somehow 18/2 builds with working Assassinate threaten this.



Slight variations in where AP is spent is not an entire new build.

As far as I can see there's precisely one good Assassin build, and that's pure 20 INT-based. Usually Human or Drow. Either Shadowdancer or a melee tree (Dreadnought/Crusade, I commonly bounce between these three trees so I don't consider it a very integral part of a build because unlike feats, base stats and class levels it can be changed on the fly for little cost). After that it's very minor choices like taking Wand and Scroll Mastery or not, or using Dark Diversion or Mythic Muffled Veneer.

I am not literally saying that every Assassin in the game is identical, but it's completely asinine to say that it's a tree is anything resembling flexible. One of DDO's selling points is the diversity in which you can make a character, and Assassin is missing out on that which, to me, is poor design.

And higher melee DPS and high Assassinate DC go hand in hand because of Harper. The only exception is Shadowdancer over Dreadnought/Crusader (and the choice is obvious for me because Shadowdancer is garbage, Blitz alone is worth +4 INT). If Shadowdancer ever gets improved to the point where it's a competitive melee tree that also provides INT, which is probably going to happen eventually, then there goes that 'build diversity'.



This is hardly something that's unique to Assassin. "More gameplay choices with assassin that with any other class" is also something that's extremely subjective, not to mention vague.



I'm not some idiot who wants Assassinate DC to be based off Hide score or whatever. I simply think that adding an additional +4 or so DC somewhere that's not capstone, whether it be an item or the lvl18 core or t5 enhancement or the base DC or a combination would be a positive change that would allow people to experiment with Assassin builds that aren't so incredibly samey and min/maxed. Working DC's without remaining pure is a feature that virtually every other ability in the game, including caster spells, enjoys. But here you're rattling off about how very basic multiclass splits will kill stealth or ruin the tree's indentity and playstyle or whatever garbage, and that's what it is, alarmist garbage, it doesn't make the slighest sense. Here's a pro-tip, 2 paladin splash doesn't make you into an unkillable tank, it won't allow you to ignore basic concepts like managing aggro, it won't allow a solo Assassin to not have to use Web traps.

You may be a knowledgeable player but that doesn't mean you understand how to play DC assassin. Stealth is not something primarily used to sneak past everything. It is something used to maximize kills and effectiveness in a party. I play in Shadowdancer quite well, thank you. I will take your comment about multi-class not ruining stealth in the context of all the rest of your (incorrect) statements. Assassins by no means need web in a group, and the main danger is fast moving multiclass builds that don't even use stealth but instead use blindness.

I would be happy to make a group video. The only reason I have not done this is because I am not on the forums to tout how awesome I am, and it requires permission from all of the other players. I would propose EE Von 3. I will ask you to join me so we can post a screenshot at the end. We can run 2-man or full group. Please let me know if you are interested.

[Saekee]

Sev, I'd like to suggest making Shiv a multiselector so that it works on ranged attacks as well.
Now that we have the mechanic tree, I can see mechanic builds wanting envenomed blades and damage boost. Shiv would augment ranged attacks like Leg Shot. It will not be as good as deepwood stalker's exposing strike but is roguish in its own way.

[CThruTheEgo]

Now that we have the mechanic tree, I can see mechanic builds wanting envenomed blades and damage boost.

Damage boost is being changed to melee power boost, so it won't be of use to ranged mechanics unless it also boosts ranged power.

[Donny_b]

a dex to assassin dc is exactly what rogues need. The highest dc achievable is within 70-75 and that is with all levels to intelligence, intelligence from ED's, heroic enhancements, assassinate items, and everything else. That requires a VERY heavy pull from other versatile aspects of the rogue. Their base dps gets sumped and everything. Even some speccing into the harper tree, which more people than you think find the tree rather repulsive. What i don't understand is how you have no problem taking a back of the line class, like bards, who were only there to buff parties and,offer crowd and give them a LITERAL FRONT LINE near incompetable (at least for single target melees) dps tree. but question giving one of the oldest classes a completely necessary over haul? Your questioning of this subject is rather offensive to us veteran players.

[slarden]

So we are agreeing here. I just believe this extra DC should be epic only, not something in the assassin cores. Either on gear or epic destiny or epic feats.

If it is in the capstone it is effectively epic only.

[slarden]

a dex to assassin dc is exactly what rogues need. The highest dc achievable is within 70-75 and that is with all levels to intelligence, intelligence from ED's, heroic enhancements, assassinate items, and everything else. That requires a VERY heavy pull from other versatile aspects of the rogue. Their base dps gets sumped and everything. Even some speccing into the harper tree, which more people than you think find the tree rather repulsive. What i don't understand is how you have no problem taking a back of the line class, like bards, who were only there to buff parties and,offer crowd and give them a LITERAL FRONT LINE near incompetable (at least for single target melees) dps tree. but question giving one of the oldest classes a completely necessary over haul? Your questioning of this subject is rather offensive to us veteran players.

I walked through this in another thread where someone was demanding proof that 77 was possible. The max sustainable assassinate DC is at least 80 including ship buffs and yugo pots, but not including any other non-sustainable buffs like store pots, cookies, turn-in potions, etc. ship buffs and yugo pots you can effectively run all the time.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/457297-Welcome-to-DDO!-where-all-our-Assassins-are-actually-BARDS!?p=5566708&viewfull=1#post5566708

[nibel]

If it is in the capstone it is effectively epic only.

When I mean a fix at epics, I mean something else to scale from level 21+. The difference between a level 19 rogue and a level 20 rogue with capstone and shadowdancer is +11 DC (+12 if the int bump goes to an even number).

Assassins need new level 21+ gear to compete. Stacking more stuff at level 20 will just make leveling on epics irrelevant. That is one of the reasons that almost no one stay at level 28 for too long. The power between a level 20-23 and 28 character is just too similar.

[Qezuzu]

You may be a knowledgeable player but that doesn't mean you understand how to play DC assassin.

DC Assassin is the sole build I've played the last couple years so, again, rude.


I will take your comment about multi-class not ruining stealth in the context of all the rest of your (incorrect) statements.

You have absolutely nothing but conjecture to back it up. Everyone who prefers tank builds over stealth builds are already playing something that's not 20 rogue, and everyone who wants tanky+insta-kills is using Swashbuckler.


Assassins by no means need web in a group

I was talking about solo. Without the CC of web, there's no way you can get the defenses to tank several EE mobs at once with just a small splash. You're greatly overstating how much benefit you're going to get from a small splash, you'd need 3 Paladin minimum to get anything significant (CHA to saves, free heavy armor prof, 19 net PRR after armor [at the cost of 50% threat gen], 20% more HP), at which point you're giving up some stuff beyond DCs (5d6 dice and 10 MP is not insignificant, but Lethality needs a revamp to make it an actual cost to drop).


I would be happy to make a group video. The only reason I have not done this is because I am not on the forums to tout how awesome I am, and it requires permission from all of the other players. I would propose EE Von 3. I will ask you to join me so we can post a screenshot at the end. We can run 2-man or full group. Please let me know if you are interested.

Are you on Thelanis? If not, we could do something on Lamannia.

[slarden]

It seems ridiculous for people to be criticizing other's play based on forum posts. Although endgame rogue builds are likely close, the small differences can change play style quite a bit.

It gets a little old when people counter a minor disagreement by saying the other player sucks.

I would suggest that if we focus more on what we agree on we are more likely to get interest from the devs on minor tweaks to the tree.

[Donny_b]

I walked through this in another thread where someone was demanding proof that 77 was possible. The max sustainable assassinate DC is at least 80 including ship buffs and yugo pots, but not including any other non-sustainable buffs like store pots, cookies, turn-in potions, etc. ship buffs and yugo pots you can effectively run all the time.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/457297-Welcome-to-DDO!-where-all-our-Assassins-are-actually-BARDS!?p=5566708&viewfull=1#post5566708

I don't think you understood what i had said. A dc high enough to do ee will require copious effort at the loss of dex which is a rogue reflex, dmg and to hit. Not to mention loss in other aspects that those points can be allocated to instead of grevious amounts of intelligence. If youh ave ran a rpgue before, you will understand exactly where i am coming from. If you have not, then you have no necessary nor useful input to this topic because you do not understand how pain staking it is to have to try to maximize two stats at the same time considering survivability.

[slarden]

I don't think you understood what i had said. A dc high enough to do ee will require copious effort at the loss of dex which is a rogue reflex, dmg and to hit. Not to mention loss in other aspects that those points can be allocated to instead of grevious amounts of intelligence. If youh ave ran a rpgue before, you will understand exactly where i am coming from. If you have not, then you have no necessary nor useful input to this topic because you do not understand how pain staking it is to have to try to maximize two stats at the same time considering survivability.

I take insightful reflexes so my reflex save is based on intelligence rather than dexterity. I also take strategic combat I and II from the harper tree so I can use int for to-hit and damage instead of dex. However, I do know what you mean since before harper tree I also went up the acrobat tree to get a high dex and that will be harder after the next update.

I still need to get a 21 dex by level 24 for improved sneak attack so I need to worry about a high dex also.

The point of my previous post was to show you what is possible, not to suggest anything else so you may have read more into my post than I intended. If you read my post I also noted going for a max assassinate is a very bad trade-off in my opinion.

[Bobby88888]

I don't think you understood what i had said. A dc high enough to do ee will require copious effort at the loss of dex which is a rogue reflex, dmg and to hit. Not to mention loss in other aspects that those points can be allocated to instead of grevious amounts of intelligence. If youh ave ran a rpgue before, you will understand exactly where i am coming from. If you have not, then you have no necessary nor useful input to this topic because you do not understand how pain staking it is to have to try to maximize two stats at the same time considering survivability.

To clarify you can still fairly easily hit 40 dex while pumping int on a 1st life sk, drow or halfling but that is rather irrelevant to your point since you are saying pumping int is at the cost of reflex, to hit and damage when in actuality it boosts all of those as well as your DC thanks to Harper int to hit and damage and insightful reflexes. If you choose to skip them you can hardly complain about needing dex to increase them since you chose that.

For most EE content you don't need a massive DC either, and can ignore all temporary boosts and some Int from shadowdancer. And needing to put effort into your DC is a good thing IMO.

As to maximising 2 stats, my rogue maxs 3: int, dex and con with ~70, 40 and 40 each on 1st life shadar kai, yes that is with a +6 tome to each but that was earn't via ingame TP not bought TP so I think it is fair enough to count it.

I think it is safe to say Slarden has run a rogue and has a fairly good idea what he is talking about, you just play a different rogue type that doesn't take the options provided to let you do the above and that is OK but makes for a weak footing for such an argument.

[nokowi]

DC Assassin is the sole build I've played the last couple years so, again, rude.



You have absolutely nothing but conjecture to back it up. Everyone who prefers tank builds over stealth builds are already playing something that's not 20 rogue, and everyone who wants tanky+insta-kills is using Swashbuckler.



I was talking about solo. Without the CC of web, there's no way you can get the defenses to tank several EE mobs at once with just a small splash. You're greatly overstating how much benefit you're going to get from a small splash, you'd need 3 Paladin minimum to get anything significant (CHA to saves, free heavy armor prof, 19 net PRR after armor [at the cost of 50% threat gen], 20% more HP), at which point you're giving up some stuff beyond DCs (5d6 dice and 10 MP is not insignificant, but Lethality needs a revamp to make it an actual cost to drop).



Are you on Thelanis? If not, we could do something on Lamannia.


We can do Lamannia. Did you want 2-man, pug, or a defined group? What will you be playing?

You keep responding to my paladin comment without addressing fast moving builds that don't use stealth but blind everything and assassinate before a stealth player can get to the mobs. As a person allowing multiclass, you are in the position of defending that there are not any builds that will preclude stealth assassin from doing their job. If you think the gains from pally are appropriate, fine, move on to the next build. I am sure I can find more. I came up with pally and monk speed/blind in about 15 seconds.

Yes, I am using conjecture because by definition you have not given out complete information. I have no choice but to use conjecture based on your comments. When you make a blanket statement that assassins cant be effective in groups (which I know to be wrong based on my own experiences), I could definitely be giving you less credibility than you deserve. Make better statements in the future.

I solo EE House of Broken Chains without any web or any form off CC now because with the addition of melee power, I just don't need them. I disagree that web is a requirement in solo EE's. I think a few of my solo EE videos don't use web at all. I am pretty sure I can do EE Fleshmaker without web or any other cc. This is a level 31 dungeon. Definitely would be a challenge though.

Here is me fighting seven or eight CR 70 EE mobs at the same time. Can you explain why you think web is required to fight multiple EE mobs, or at least clarify this statement? http://youtu.be/EO9H0wIPYTM

[Faltout]

You just need some more practice. You are willing to evaluate your own game play (rather than trying one thing, quitting and saying assassin is broken) so I am sure you can do well with assassin. I'm sure I have lots of ground to cover till I am able to play an assassin with full potential. But that said, I'm not a new player and have played many builds with very different playstyles (barbs head in battle, sneaky rogues that never get aggro, squishy wizards that manipulate the field from behind, tanks that try to take aggro off allies, rangers that kite monsters in a circle for the party or lining them up for IPS, etc.) I know very well when to get and when not to get aggro as well as how to position myself on the battlefield.
But nobody's perfect. When a great number of things are happening all at once in a quest, it's tough to keep on top of things.

In spinner, a newer assassin DC player should follow another player. As soon as the mob runs (or teleports) to the other player, you assassinate them.Considering the melee players were at center and the ranged players were kiting, getting to their position can be tough. But I did have many successful assassinates. Several Jariliths and 2 Hezrous. I was especially happy with the Jarilith ones as they can cause a lot of pain.
The problem with that particular Hezrou was that I wasn't expecting it for a while (because there were spiders still to be killed), but the melees at center were in a hurry and killed the spinner which spawned the Hezrous. At the time I thought I had the ranged on my side, but I was wrong.


Another idea would be to repeat the same quest and just stay in stealth the entire time. After you better learn how to select targets, you can work on popping in and out of stealth and paying attention to your health bar.
What would that accomplish? I know the quest like the back of my hand. But with champions and fireballs and walls of fire and cleaves and disco balls all going on, it's hard to know where everything is, wouldn't you agree?


Lastly, you may or may not have the DC for spinner, depending on your build choices. I am remembering a DC of 60 being usable off the top of my head. The cats and spiders are easy to assassinate while the Hezrou take some DC.60 for a heroic spinner? I don't know, I thought that was the good enough DC for pale masters in epic levels... :D

Aaaanyway. I wanted to provide my experience which I'm sure others must be having. Insta kill is much easier in other classes. I don't expect it to be easy like bard, but this is too hard.

[nokowi]

I'm sure I have lots of ground to cover till I am able to play an assassin with full potential. But that said, I'm not a new player and have played many builds with very different playstyles (barbs head in battle, sneaky rogues that never get aggro, squishy wizards that manipulate the field from behind, tanks that try to take aggro off allies, rangers that kite monsters in a circle for the party or lining them up for IPS, etc.) I know very well when to get and when not to get aggro as well as how to position myself on the battlefield.
But nobody's perfect. When a great number of things are happening all at once in a quest, it's tough to keep on top of things.
Considering the melee players were at center and the ranged players were kiting, getting to their position can be tough. But I did have many successful assassinates. Several Jariliths and 2 Hezrous. I was especially happy with the Jarilith ones as they can cause a lot of pain.
The problem with that particular Hezrou was that I wasn't expecting it for a while (because there were spiders still to be killed), but the melees at center were in a hurry and killed the spinner which spawned the Hezrous. At the time I thought I had the ranged on my side, but I was wrong.


What would that accomplish? I know the quest like the back of my hand. But with champions and fireballs and walls of fire and cleaves and disco balls all going on, it's hard to know where everything is, wouldn't you agree?

60 for a heroic spinner? I don't know, I thought that was the good enough DC for pale masters in epic levels... :D

Aaaanyway. I wanted to provide my experience which I'm sure others must be having. Insta kill is much easier in other classes. I don't expect it to be easy like bard, but this is too hard.

Sorry I thought you were on epic spinner. I no longer remember heroic DC's. I am sure you just need more practice with assassin. Having played a lot of other builds does not mean you can step into assassin and play well. Assassin takes far more skill than other builds (as you now know). I personally can keep track of everything without a problem, but I have a lot of experience with assassin. I don't even think about my buttons any more, I think and they happen. My thought is always focused on where to move to next to be most efficient (while keeping track of all other player and mob movements), and deciding when to pop in and out of stealth. Being able to predict mob and player moves ahead of time is very helpful and rewarding.

Non-group oriented kiting ranged toons are an annoyance to all melee. A good group ranged player would pull 2 mobs to you and let you double assassinate on each kiting pass. Alternatively you could have stayed center with the melee and probably done much better. (This is where the Hezrou can get annoying and you can get lots of 2x Hezrou assassinates)

Don't give up! Check out the rogue discussion page and look for CThruU or Saekee among others if you need any advice. They are very helpful.

[amsharkwei]

Add a new iteam in DDO store

yes!

The Tome of +1 to +5 Assassnate DC !!!

The Tome of +1 to +5 Action Point !!! Then we can have maximum 85 AP

The Tome of +1 to +5 Epic Destiny Point !!! Then we can have maximum 29 DP

[redoubt]

To clarify you can still fairly easily hit 40 dex while pumping int on a 1st life sk, drow or halfling but that is rather irrelevant to your point since you are saying pumping int is at the cost of reflex, to hit and damage when in actuality it boosts all of those as well as your DC thanks to Harper int to hit and damage and insightful reflexes. If you choose to skip them you can hardly complain about needing dex to increase them since you chose that.

For most EE content you don't need a massive DC either, and can ignore all temporary boosts and some Int from shadowdancer. And needing to put effort into your DC is a good thing IMO.

As to maximising 2 stats, my rogue maxs 3: int, dex and con with ~70, 40 and 40 each on 1st life shadar kai, yes that is with a +6 tome to each but that was earn't via ingame TP not bought TP so I think it is fair enough to count it.

I think it is safe to say Slarden has run a rogue and has a fairly good idea what he is talking about, you just play a different rogue type that doesn't take the options provided to let you do the above and that is OK but makes for a weak footing for such an argument.

Minor point, but how do you earn enough TP on a 1st life character to buy 3 +6 tomes?

[FlaviusMaximus]

I have an off the wall idea.

Assassinate is really strongly tied to Rogue level and there is almost no wiggle room when it comes to building a character that wants to utilize the ability. That is problematic, in my mind, because it eliminates the best feature of this game - the customization. Right now, it's go single class or don't bother. With the proposed changes so far, I don't think this changes much.

What if assassinate was completely untethered to Rogue level but the cooldown was instead? For example, instead of the DC being 10 + Rogue level, what if the DC was simple base 30 and then the cooldown is decreased by 1 second at core 12, 2 more seconds at core 18, and 2 more seconds (for a total of 5) at core 20?

Doing this would still give single class Rogues a distinct advantage when it came to assassination but it would make building a lot more interesting.

Gotta revise this. Somehow forgot about Holy Sword. This would just create too many 15p/5r Assassins. Thank you Holy Sword for being so broken.

20 + 1/2 Rogue level instead.

[redoubt]

Severlin,

Any chance you guys are looking at the stealth system any time soon? Could we get an official thread to discuss it?

Thanks!


We can do Lamannia. Did you want 2-man, pug, or a defined group? What will you be playing?

You keep responding to my paladin comment without addressing fast moving builds that don't use stealth but blind everything and assassinate before a stealth player can get to the mobs. As a person allowing multiclass, you are in the position of defending that there are not any builds that will preclude stealth assassin from doing their job. If you think the gains from pally are appropriate, fine, move on to the next build. I am sure I can find more. I came up with pally and monk speed/blind in about 15 seconds.

Yes, I am using conjecture because by definition you have not given out complete information. I have no choice but to use conjecture based on your comments. When you make a blanket statement that assassins cant be effective in groups (which I know to be wrong based on my own experiences), I could definitely be giving you less credibility than you deserve. Make better statements in the future.

I solo EE House of Broken Chains without any web or any form off CC now because with the addition of melee power, I just don't need them. I disagree that web is a requirement in solo EE's. I think a few of my solo EE videos don't use web at all. I am pretty sure I can do EE Fleshmaker without web or any other cc. This is a level 31 dungeon. Definitely would be a challenge though.

Here is me fighting seven or eight CR 70 EE mobs at the same time. Can you explain why you think web is required to fight multiple EE mobs, or at least clarify this statement? http://youtu.be/EO9H0wIPYTM

The version of stealth you are wanting does not work well in a group. If you are in stealth you are too far behind to be relevant. That's why I pushed, early in this thread for sneak speed that exceeded normal movement speed as a means to keep up with fast movement. You countered by saying that sneak and stealth are not the same thing.

You are right, they are not the same. You want stealth to be relevant, but the game is prejudiced heavily against stealth, even in solo play.
1. Any interactions break sneak and invis.
2. objectives that require mass killing
3. doors that "magically" unlock when EVERY mob in the room dies.
4. most champions have see invis or true seeing (hey, if we are talking "stealth" and not just "sneak" this counts!)
5. No way to avoid tremor sense or blind sight (also things I've suggested in this thread.)
6. masses of mobs that spawn around you when you cross a specific location in the quest. (We should be able to "stealth" past, open the door and "stealth" on by without the mobs ever spawning, but Turbine won't let us.)

These are things that are killing stealth. I'm happy to address them. In fact, I'd love to address them, but that is not what this thread is about.

I don't know how you want us to respond, but I will tell you that if you are sneaking/stealthing around, then my paladin and the other 4 in the party will RUN past you and kill everything in the room before you arrive. This is why I say stealth does not work well in groups. Its the same problem with fascinate. Groups don't have the patience or the appropriate awareness of how to deal with fascinated mobs. THAT, and the monte hall dps we do clears ROOMs so fast that no other tactic is needed.

Of course stealth works better when solo. CC is likely not needed in most quests. With the use of patience and proper single pulling of mobs you can kill things one at a time. This is only place left for the actual stealth game today. (Again, I'd be happy to discuss ways to invigorate the stealth game, but in another thread.)

[redoubt]

Aaaanyway. I wanted to provide my experience which I'm sure others must be having. Insta kill is much easier in other classes. I don't expect it to be easy like bard, but this is too hard.

Moving targets are problematic. TWF has a very small hit box and both latency and moving make it worse. You really need to almost assassinate from in front of the mob, anticipating where it is going to be when you attack actually happens.

It is hard to do consistently and its the same sort of cheese that is protected by people who want twitch dps to be better than dps via the normal attack chain.

[redoubt]

Gotta revise this. Somehow forgot about Holy Sword. This would just create too many 15p/5r Assassins. Thank you Holy Sword for being so broken.

20 + 1/2 Rogue level instead.

Splashing 5 rogue on a paladin is not going to make the paladin kill faster...

But I still don't think we should separate assassinate DC from rogue levels like you suggest.

[Qezuzu]

When you make a blanket statement that assassins cant be effective in groups (which I know to be wrong based on my own experiences), I could definitely be giving you less credibility than you deserve. Make better statements in the future.

I never said Assassin, I said the sneak system. It seems we're using different definitions of stealth.

In videogames, there's two kinds of stealth. Stealth as in avoid alerting any attention whatsoever (e.g. Thief series). And then there's murder stealth where you're really aggressive and kill everyone without making a scene about it (e.g. literally every other story-driven action adventure game use glass bottles to divert attention WOOHOO).

And then in DDO, stealth in a group is some bizarre combination of murder stealth and an ARPG, where one person is being REALLY STEALTHY in that mobs don't notice them at first but they still murder everything in roughly the same fashion as the rest of the group. At least in the way I use sneak, which is, again, to Assassinate things whenever I get a chance. At all other times I'm just attacking or healing.

Okay, calling Web traps a necessity everywhere isn't accurate but there's still really no reason to not use them in top level content (so not House of Broken Chains). It doesn't quite matter how much defense a splash would give when you have such good crowd control anyway.

I'm still a bit confused about the "blind and then Assassinate" thing. How is this so different from just sneaking up and Assassinating, especially with the improved movement speed? Why is this something that a pure 20 Assassin can't do either? Why not just Bluff and then Assassinate?

[SealedInSong]

Players have an infinite number of builds to experiment with. This includes DC insta kill through bard. You dont need rogue to do this.

You suggest that assassins should also have stunning fist because you like it.

I don't have the time to respond to all of this, but:

1] "infinite builds" across all classes/races has nothing to do with me, and others, talking about how restricted ASSASSINS are.

We obviously understand that rogues aren't required for instakill, but THAT'S THE POINT; other instakills can have a nice variety of builds, whereas ASSASSINS ARE PIGEONHOLED for higher difficulties.

2] I'm not asking for assassins to have stunning fist AT ALL. I was using stunning fist as an ANALOGY for a AN ABILITY USEFUL ACROSS A WIDE VARIETY OF BUILDS.

If you don't understand that analogy, it's possible that I made a poor analogy, and it's possible that you missed it and your post doesn't address what I'm saying at all.

I think it's the latter.

[SealedInSong]

If I watched you play your 8 stunning fist toons, would I notice the difference in your game play?
Yes, of course. They have extremely varied tactics, not just from their builds but because of roleplaying considerations and abilities. That's pretty much inherent.


Not build differences, but how you move through the dungeon, how you assess targets, etc.
See above.


It seems likely you are confusing hitting the same set of buttons with the exact same game play and different build choices with actual differences in game play.
Nope, I'm not.

Ex: my stunning wizard likes to group mobs, because fighting in AoEs is better DPS than single target.
Ex: my stunning rogue likes to bluff mobs and bring them close, then eliminate them singly.
Ex: my stunning clonk likes to get into the fray after party members have gotten aggro, so she can get in sneak attacks but also keep party members alive with ameliorating strike and radiant aura.


If you are bored with assassin, it sounds like you have plenty of other toons to play. Go play your 8 other stunning fist toons.
This is equivalent to saying, "If [X] DDO [class/race/prestige/destiny] doesn't give enough build options, play the interesting ones." Uh, yeah. We'll play the things that interest us most. However, if I think that [X] option is GENERALLY not interesting/diverse to the player base, myself included, then I will make suggestions to make it more colorful and applicable.


You certainly have not made a good argument that there are not enough stunning fist builds, and therefore we need more. These exist. Go play them.

Most classes have many build choices and then game play is just players trying them out.

I think that I carefully and effectively illustrated that stunning fist builds can be effective on an extremely diverse platform of builds, whereas assassins are basically only effective in endgame when they are:
pure rogue + int destiny (default shadowdancer) + [mythic muffled veneer/dark diversion] + int based

That is not diverse to me.


For assassin, the variety comes through the game play choices that you make as your skill, understanding, and character power change. It also depends on your tolerance for risk vs reward, your character dps, character toughness, willingness to use traps, and as your party composition changes. There is much more variety here than just testing your latest build for awesomeness.

Yes, I understand that. As I said, I have two assassins and I do enjoy them. Hence, I'm on this thread hoping to improve my enjoyment of them and possible future assassin builds.

Someone else mentioned 7 assassin builds that they found on the forums. If they can make a compelling argument that they all have their merits in endgame AND are sufficiently different from each other, rather than just choosing Shadar-Kai vs. Drow, or running in Magister vs. Shadowdancer, or using this weapon vs. that weapon, then I'd love to see it.

Currently, your sidestepping of my argument that it's easy to think of tons of effective stunning fist BUILDS AND GAMEPLAY vs just a truly narrow window of assassin BUILDS AND GAMEPLAY, because BUILDS ARE A PLATFORM FOR DIFFERENT TYPES OF GAMEPLAY, leaves us with little to talk about.

[Bobby88888]

Minor point, but how do you earn enough TP on a 1st life character to buy 3 +6 tomes?

It was a +6 supreme tome actually and I have been playing for 5 and a half years, that character is 1 of 9 and you can easily get ~1200 TP a life without first time bonuses these days so I have built up a lot of TP over the years, not to mention favour farming each sever to 100 fav. Getting enough for a +6 supreme on the 20% off sales is easy enough and when you have nothing better to spend it on why not :)
But I probably should have adjusted numbers for a +3 tome to dex/con and +5 to int which gives ~70 int still, 36 or 38 dex and 36 or 38 con

[Bobby88888]

6. masses of mobs that spawn around you when you cross a specific location in the quest. (We should be able to "stealth" past, open the door and "stealth" on by without the mobs ever spawning, but Turbine won't let us.)

Actually there are a lot of places that sneaking (successfully, low hide/ms doesn't work) will not spawn mobs/activate them at all. Of course the rest of the group blunders through moments later and sets them all off but you can skip spawning a lot of mobs by having the entire group successful sneak past.

[Ayseifn]

Just throwing this out there, what if flanking bonus was added to assassinate DC?

That'd mean +1 for attacking from the side, +2 from behind and the only way I remember that buffs it is from Way of the Faithful Hound. Hound is +2 for one monk level and then another +1 at 3 monk levels so not really game breaking.

[Donny_b]

Players have an infinite number of builds to experiment with. This includes DC insta kill through bard. You dont need rogue to do this.

You suggest that assassins should also have stunning fist because you like it.
Others want a no fail DC without any real build investment (skill based DC).
Others want fast movement.
Others want instant full heals (everybody else has them, right?)
Others want the same melee dps as top tier builds

Pretty soon all characters can assassinate, and every single DDO build plays exactly the same.

Just because you like an ability does not mean that every class needs to have it. Having different classes be able to do different things, with different strengths and weaknesses leads to variety. Giving everyone everything does not.

Okay the rest of that i get, but how are you gonna compare a ridiculous dc of a bard instakill that not only has the option to get four off the bat at game start, one per pevek and modified by charisma, but can also easily get a 20 item 4exc etc etc? That's an illogical comparison

[nokowi]

Okay the rest of that i get, but how are you gonna compare a ridiculous dc of a bard instakill that not only has the option to get four off the bat at game start, one per pevek and modified by charisma, but can also easily get a 20 item 4exc etc etc? That's an illogical comparison

Here is the fundamental problem. Trying to make all builds the same. Each build should be different.

Bard was revamped as the easy entrance into EE that would prove that melee could be viable. Bard serves a very specific role in DDO. Why Bard? Emotionally, I am guessing some dev's play bards in PnP and have a special love for them. More logically, bard was the melee class that needed the most buffing at the time. Bard gives players a place who want to enjoy a melee instakill with infinite cross-class build possibilities without having to go find gear or develop expert skills. (Not meaning to offend here, there are certainly bard players with expert skills).

DC assassin gives a place for experienced players who want to challenge themselves. This includes finding the right gear, and making real build sacrifices. It involves developing more skills than are needed for other classes.

Is this fair? Not if you are set on playing a DC Assassin but feel the challenge is too hard. It is completely fair if you ask the more general question "Can I play a melee DC insta kill character with infinite cross class possibilities" - YES! Bard

By making DC assassin like bard, you remove a space for people who want the challenge without providing much for those that want less challenge.

Believe me, I argued loudly against the current Bard mechanics. One of the big reasons was that players would expect the same thing. In my opinion, bard could have been made very viable and powerful without giving them special rules. At this point, I have no desire to change bard. I want to prevent the same thing from happening to assassin.

[Saekee]

When I mean a fix at epics, I mean something else to scale from level 21+. The difference between a level 19 rogue and a level 20 rogue with capstone and shadowdancer is +11 DC (+12 if the int bump goes to an even number).

Assassins need new level 21+ gear to compete. Stacking more stuff at level 20 will just make leveling on epics irrelevant. That is one of the reasons that almost no one stay at level 28 for too long. The power between a level 20-23 and 28 character is just too similar.
Nibel I would like to add to this how important it is to have an improved deception weapon & item. The latter is easier to get; the former rather grindy. And there are no improved deception weapons in heroics. Nokowi's vid on deception reminded me how powerul this combo is for rogues for both offense and defense. That is why my Twilight Blade uses tier 5 of Harper.


Severlin,
You are right, they are not the same. You want stealth to be relevant, but the game is prejudiced heavily against stealth, even in solo play.
1. Any interactions break sneak and invis.
2. objectives that require mass killing
3. doors that "magically" unlock when EVERY mob in the room dies.
4. most champions have see invis or true seeing (hey, if we are talking "stealth" and not just "sneak" this counts!)
5. No way to avoid tremor sense or blind sight (also things I've suggested in this thread.)
6. masses of mobs that spawn around you when you cross a specific location in the quest. (We should be able to "stealth" past, open the door and "stealth" on by without the mobs ever spawning, but Turbine won't let us.)

These are things that are killing stealth. I'm happy to address them. In fact, I'd love to address them, but that is not what this thread is about.

I don't know how you want us to respond, but I will tell you that if you are sneaking/stealthing around, then my paladin and the other 4 in the party will RUN past you and kill everything in the room before you arrive. This is why I say stealth does not work well in groups. Its the same problem with fascinate. Groups don't have the patience or the appropriate awareness of how to deal with fascinated mobs. THAT, and the monte hall dps we do clears ROOMs so fast that no other tactic is needed.

Of course stealth works better when solo. CC is likely not needed in most quests. With the use of patience and proper single pulling of mobs you can kill things one at a time. This is only place left for the actual stealth game today. (Again, I'd be happy to discuss ways to invigorate the stealth game, but in another thread.)

Hi redoubt, I agree with this list. For #1, I address some solutions here:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/457293-Stealth-Acting-Even-killing-in-Plain-Sight-outside-Assassinate

I agree with you and HATE #2 & #3. It is as if we are forced sometimes to be bulls in a China shop.

#4 does not affect stealth, just invisi--which could be used to pull champs out of a group by luring them while invisi and out of stealth.

For #5, wraith form & its equivalent in Shadowdancer should not trigger either tremor sense (you are floating!) or undead life sense (at least for the PM shroud, although the SD version also suffers 2x light damage--so maybe it is implied that one's life force is inverted).

[nokowi]

Nibel I would like to add to this how important it is to have an improved deception weapon & item. The latter is easier to get; the former rather grindy. And there are no improved deception weapons in heroics. Nokowi's vid on deception reminded me how powerul this combo is for rogues for both offense and defense. That is why my Twilight Blade uses tier 5 of Harper.



Hi redoubt, I agree with this list. For #1, I address some solutions here:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/457293-Stealth-Acting-Even-killing-in-Plain-Sight-outside-Assassinate

I agree with you and HATE #2 & #3. It is as if we are forced sometimes to be bulls in a China shop.

#4 does not affect stealth, just invisi--which could be used to pull champs out of a group by luring them while invisi and out of stealth.

For #5, wraith form & its equivalent in Shadowdancer should not trigger either tremor sense (you are floating!) or undead life sense (at least for the PM shroud, although the SD version also suffers 2x light damage--so maybe it is implied that one's life force is inverted).

I love all these limitations but I can understand that I am the crazy one :) I would like these limitations to be balanced by ... something! For me this is simply having better melee insta kill than a bard.

[Arkantios]

1. INT based assassins I am familiar with.
2. I had a dex based assassin a long time ago. Cthru convinced me to go INT based instead (even before harper.) Can you elaborate on the existing DEX based assassins?
3. Can you please elaborate on the build that assassinates and runs in Fury of the Wild?
4. Same, but for LD.
5. Assassinate is a melee only skill.



Nokowi earlier mentioned that #4 was a LD Assassin build. I personally don't like fury all that much and shadowdancer is more of a utility destiny to me. I enjoy shadowdancer, believe me on that, but I like the extra prr from blitz, the haste boosts, extra action boosts, attacks, etc. LD is what my SneakATank (Pure 20 Human rogue) build runs in most of the time with twists like stealthy and maybe an int for the dc's, sense weakness for the extra damage, and rejuv cocoon because I was awesome and made a t3 tf qstaff healy stick. I haven't been it in a while so I didn't have the top notch gear for it so I had an Assassinate DC in the higher 60's because I didn't sacrifice everything into Int and whatnot. It never bothered me though because I enjoyed having aggro on mobs mostly because I have cleave/great cleave with several deception procs, a decent prr, good reflex, good hamp, and a radiance guard GS item for the fun of it. Most of the time I still get top of the kill count because I switch between running in and tanking everything via imp deception/(insert other damage mitigation thingamajiggers here) and sneaking around, jumping over my party members and other mobs to do some flying assassinates when it's off timer.

People need to have more fun with their builds and stop complaining so much. We really don't need that much of a dc boost honestly. Maybe +1 - +2 here or there but like several have said before, instead of pushing this into enhancements, we could just have higher level items with the DC's on them. Make them 25-28 because there's no point in increasing the DC till then. Also, decreasing the cooldown on assassinate and/or adding a bit more doublestrike into the tree would severely add to how useful it is. DC's aren't everything.

[CThruTheEgo]

Sev, I'd love to know what you think of these and if any of them are still an option.

This is just a quick summary of the changes I would still like to see implemented. Altogether, these changes would increase the power of the assassin to make them more competative with the other revamped classes, but without turning it into an equivalent easy button and without significantly altering their unique playstyle. In fact, many of these changes would facilitate their playstyle and revitalize them to the lethal killers they were when the level cap was 20.

1) Increase sneak speed: As stated previously, giving assassin at least 100% base movement speed does not increase their power in any way, but it does increase their compatibility with groups. Drop faster sneaking altogether, or move it back to acrobat for other rogues to use, then add to each of the first five cores a 10% reduction in the sneak speed penalty, so by the level 18 core an assassin would have no penalty. I can't think of any reason why this shouldn't happen. If taking faster sneaking along with these reductions would be considered too fast (and I think it might), then make them mutually exclusive. Maybe each of the first 3 cores locks you out of 1 rank of faster sneaking, and vice versa, so by the third core, you wouldn't be able to take faster sneaking at all.

2) Measure the foe fade 1 stack every 6 seconds: Under the current proposal, it will simply be tedious to drop into sneak every 10 seconds to keep the buff up. Changing it to fade 1 stack every 6 seconds would still require dropping into sneak every so often to keep it up (more often, in fact, if you want to keep it maxed), but would not require extreme micromanagement to get any benefit from it at all. Less micromanagement means more fun. I think this would also encourage being in sneak mode for more time overall, which certainly fits thematically.

3) Decrease cooldown of assassinate to 12 seconds: This is not too short and will enable the assassin to use its defining ability more often. Decreasing the cooldown will make assassinate more competitive with coup de grace without simply raising the DC. Having a shorter cooldown on assassinate also encourages assassins to be in sneak mode more often.

4) Scale lethality into epics by proccing an assassinate check on vorpal: On vorpal, perform an assassinate using the assassinate DC. On failed save, target is killed instantly. On successful save, target takes 10d6 additional sneak attack damage. The extra damage on a successful save comes to an average of 1.75. On an assassin with an essentially no fail DC, this change would effectively preserve lethality by having it scale appropriately into epics. It would essentially maintain the same effect as it does in heroics. I don't see why this shouldn't be the case.

5) Change deadly shadow: I think the capstone should provide +4 int, +1 assassinate DC, +4d6 sneak attack damage, 10 melee power. This provides a total of +3 DCs on a pure assassin, which is 2 more than we currently get.

6) Increase light armor mastery PRR to 5/10/15: While I appreciate the melee power debuff, I still think a slight increase in more consistent damage mitigation is necessary. An additional 9 PRR is not going to amount to much, but it will help assassins in the area that they most need it.

[redoubt]

It was a +6 supreme tome actually and I have been playing for 5 and a half years, that character is 1 of 9 and you can easily get ~1200 TP a life without first time bonuses these days so I have built up a lot of TP over the years, not to mention favour farming each sever to 100 fav. Getting enough for a +6 supreme on the 20% off sales is easy enough and when you have nothing better to spend it on why not :)
But I probably should have adjusted numbers for a +3 tome to dex/con and +5 to int which gives ~70 int still, 36 or 38 dex and 36 or 38 con

I know you can earn TP across a number of characters and a number of lives. You post made it sound like your FIRST life character earned enough to buy them (i.e. you were using it as an example of what a first life character could earn.)

[redoubt]

Actually there are a lot of places that sneaking (successfully, low hide/ms doesn't work) will not spawn mobs/activate them at all. Of course the rest of the group blunders through moments later and sets them all off but you can skip spawning a lot of mobs by having the entire group successful sneak past.

Agreed. And that further illustrates my point that the game is stacked against actual stealth play in groups.

In that situation, the stealth character should be able to open the door for the group or disarm a trap or take some other action that makes the path clear for the group. That is the reward for slowing down and waiting for a stealthy character to do their part.

[BigErkyKid]

Alright, so here are my suggestions:


- Add the healing barbs got to the assassin tree: if the best AOE melee in the game can have it, why not assassins.
This could be tweaked. For instance, on kill and on successful sneak attack.

- Add the current MP and what not enhancements as it is.
This seems fine, also the out of stealth boost seems good in terms of the general theme

- Reduce assassinate CD to around 6 seconds.
I would hardly call it OP when in 6 seconds the top classes have killed a PACK of mobs

- Improve one strike abilities they have
Execute should be more powerful. Maybe remove the HP requirement and have the 500 damage scale with MP. It would not hurt to reduce the cool down.

[redoubt]

Sev, I'd love to know what you think of these and if any of them are still an option.

This is just a quick summary of the changes I would still like to see implemented. .

Great summary and 6 great ideas! I'm in!

Sev, how about you?

[dualscissors]

Sev, I'd love to know what you think of these and if any of them are still an option.

This is just a quick summary of the changes I would still like to see implemented. Altogether, these changes would increase the power of the assassin to make them more competative with the other revamped classes, but without turning it into an equivalent easy button and without significantly altering their unique playstyle. In fact, many of these changes would facilitate their playstyle and revitalize them to the lethal killers they were when the level cap was 20.


That's a strong list in summary. /agree

[brzytki]

Btw guys, Lama is open now, so you might want to jump in and check it now.

[Severlin]

Sev, I'd love to know what you think of these and if any of them are still an option.

This is just a quick summary of the changes I would still like to see implemented. Altogether, these changes would increase the power of the assassin to make them more competative with the other revamped classes, but without turning it into an equivalent easy button and without significantly altering their unique playstyle. In fact, many of these changes would facilitate their playstyle and revitalize them to the lethal killers they were when the level cap was 20.

1) Increase sneak speed: As stated previously, giving assassin at least 100% base movement speed does not increase their power in any way, but it does increase their compatibility with groups. Drop faster sneaking altogether, or move it back to acrobat for other rogues to use, then add to each of the first five cores a 10% reduction in the sneak speed penalty, so by the level 18 core an assassin would have no penalty. I can't think of any reason why this shouldn't happen. If taking faster sneaking along with these reductions would be considered too fast (and I think it might), then make them mutually exclusive. Maybe each of the first 3 cores locks you out of 1 rank of faster sneaking, and vice versa, so by the third core, you wouldn't be able to take faster sneaking at all.


We will watch for Lamannia feedback on this. Keep in mind that the low hanging Acrobat speed boost should affect overall speed including stealth. While we have some room for improvement, I don't think we want stealth to provide a speed boost over unstealthed speed.



2) Measure the foe fade 1 stack every 6 seconds: Under the current proposal, it will simply be tedious to drop into sneak every 10 seconds to keep the buff up. Changing it to fade 1 stack every 6 seconds would still require dropping into sneak every so often to keep it up (more often, in fact, if you want to keep it maxed), but would not require extreme micromanagement to get any benefit from it at all. Less micromanagement means more fun. I think this would also encourage being in sneak mode for more time overall, which certainly fits thematically.


Measure the Foe is not meant to be a constant buff which is why it doesn't fade away. We want it to feel like the Assassin is really good in those first 10 seconds of surprise and confusion among foes, and then they are back to normal in the next round. It's our best representation of pen and paper's surprise round.



3) Decrease cooldown of assassinate to 12 seconds: This is not too short and will enable the assassin to use its defining ability more often. Decreasing the cooldown will make assassinate more competitive with coup de grace without simply raising the DC. Having a shorter cooldown on assassinate also encourages assassins to be in sneak mode more often.


We have been discussing this as an option. If overall performance of Assassin is too low then this is a buff we can consider. As an aside, we don't want to buff Assassinate for the sole reason that CdG is better, as that ability is probably over-performing.



4) Scale lethality into epics by proccing an assassinate check on vorpal: On vorpal, perform an assassinate using the assassinate DC. On failed save, target is killed instantly. On successful save, target takes 10d6 additional sneak attack damage. The extra damage on a successful save comes to an average of 1.75. On an assassin with an essentially no fail DC, this change would effectively preserve lethality by having it scale appropriately into epics. It would essentially maintain the same effect as it does in heroics. I don't see why this shouldn't be the case.


I don't know why Lethality doesn't list the effect, DC, etc. That is something I should probably fix so players can discuss it.



5) Change deadly shadow: I think the capstone should provide +4 int, +1 assassinate DC, +4d6 sneak attack damage, 10 melee power. This provides a total of +3 DCs on a pure assassin, which is 2 more than we currently get.


Deadly Shadow on Lamannia provides a +2 to Assasinate DC.

We want to support Dexterity based Rogues who are Assassins, especially since the tree itself gives Dexterity to hit and damage with daggers/kukri. We wouldn't make the capstone only Intelligence. It's already enough of a disadvantage to lose out on Assassinate DC.



6) Increase light armor mastery PRR to 5/10/15: While I appreciate the melee power debuff, I still think a slight increase in more consistent damage mitigation is necessary. An additional 9 PRR is not going to amount to much, but it will help assassins in the area that they most need it.

The vision is that Assassin isn't meant to be a passive mitigation tree. Their mitigation will come from debuffs. If you need passive mitigation you will want to splash it.

We are looking into how much of an issue on shots are for rogues since they have lower hit points. It's a big discussion point in the player's council as well. If we address it we'd more likely add functionality to Improved Defensive Roll to cut back specifically on those big hits rather than adding more passive mitigation.

Sev~

[Erofen]

We want to support Dexterity based Rogues who are Assassins, especially since the tree itself gives Dexterity to hit and damage with daggers/kukri. We wouldn't make the capstone only Intelligence. It's already enough of a disadvantage to lose out on Assassinate DC.

Sev~
You say they are at a disadvantage and you want to support them, but you do not try to remedy part of the problem by adding dex to assassinate. All of the super high dex numbers like 70+ are from multiclasses (shuricannons specifically which do not even use melee much) which would not have an effective dc anyways, or temporary boosts from potions with heavy ap investment. I am trying to enjoy these changes but dex based just feels worthless at this current state in the game. Thanks for all the effort being put in.

[Severlin]

You say they are at a disadvantage and you want to support them, but you do not try to remedy part of the problem by adding dex to assassinate. All of the super high dex numbers like 70+ are from multiclasses (shuricannons specifically which do not even use melee much) which would not have an effective dc anyways, or temporary boosts from potions with heavy ap investment. I am trying to enjoy these changes but dex based just feels worthless at this current state in the game. Thanks for all the effort being put in.

I understand what you are saying, but I also agree with feedback that an Intelligence based Assassin has to pay the price to dip into Harper and pay a feat tax to function using Intelligence. If we changed Assassinate to be also Dexterity then it kills the hard choice between Dexterity and Intelligence that exists on in the current revamp.

Sev~

[draven1]

Measure the Foe is not meant to be a constant buff which is why it doesn't fade away. We want it to feel like the Assassin is really good in those first 10 seconds of surprise and confusion among foes, and then they are back to normal in the next round. It's our best representation of pen and paper's surprise round.

So, is blitz meant to be a constant buff? But, not measure the foe & killer?



I don't know why Lethality doesn't list the effect, DC, etc. That is something I should probably fix so players can discuss it.

Giving assassinate chance to every 20 roll may be over-power. I think Sneak Attack crit on crit is proper for Lethality enhancement.



The vision is that Assassin isn't meant to be a passive mitigation tree. Their mitigation will come from debuffs. If you need passive mitigation you will want to splash it.

Yup, squishy, but deadly. I think the best mitigation method for rogues are using their GUTS & WIT :D
I like to see more aggro management methods(Bluff, Diplo, sometimes Intim) & some roguish CC(SAP, hamstring, slicing blow) here.
It's really too hard to get enough social skill points for harder EE contents like stormhorn. Even with full skill point to social skill, +20 bluff, diplo gear, some extra cha gears doesn't make much difference on harder EE contents. It seems just always fail on that social skill check whether you fully invested for it or not.



We are looking into how much of an issue on shots are for rogues since they have lower hit points. It's a big discussion point in the player's council as well. If we address it we'd more likely add functionality to Improved Defensive Roll to cut back specifically on those big hits rather than adding more passive mitigation.

Defensive roll & slippery mind are the last bastion for squishy rogues. It should let rogues narrowly escape brushes with death like its description. :D
Sadly, it's currently not. I think granting some temporary hp & dodge on successful reflex save would be helpful for that emergency situation. Also, granting some additional will save on 2nd roll for slippery mind, too.
Threshold for defensive roll should be raised.

-----------------------------
I like to add something here.

Let assassins use hide skill to keep sneak state like concentration skill for casters.

It's very annoying to lose assassination chance by just 1 single weak arrow. Even missed or dodged arrow can break sneak.

Casters & Divines can cast in heavy rain of arrows,
but even if that arrow deals just 1 damage,
it can be enough to break well skilled master assasin's assasination chance.

Casters & divine can use even no fail casting with quicken.

[Saekee]

You say they are at a disadvantage and you want to support them, but you do not try to remedy part of the problem by adding dex to assassinate. All of the super high dex numbers like 70+ are from multiclasses (shuricannons specifically which do not even use melee much) which would not have an effective dc anyways, or temporary boosts from potions with heavy ap investment. I am trying to enjoy these changes but dex based just feels worthless at this current state in the game. Thanks for all the effort being put in.

A lot of those big dex numbers were getting them from the shadow toggle that gave +6. That is being fixed back. Otherwise the extra boost comes from Wind Stance and Tenser's, basically.
I love Dex builds but really do not see Dex being used for assassinate. Dex builds get the small advantage of having better AC, and if they splash monk they get Wisdom to AC as well (and they save the insightful reflex feat). The build in my sig multiclasses as a 13rogue and gives up assassinate for other goodies. I think that is the way things should go--all INT for the pure assassin or splash around with Dex and give up assassinate. Tons of mobs in the game can't be assassinated anyway and it is useless on red named mobs.

[draven1]

A lot of those big dex numbers were getting them from the shadow toggle that gave +6. That is being fixed back. Otherwise the extra boost comes from Wind Stance and Tenser's, basically.
I love Dex builds but really do not see Dex being used for assassinate. Dex builds get the small advantage of having better AC, and if they splash monk they get Wisdom to AC as well (and they save the insightful reflex feat). The build in my sig multiclasses as a 13rogue and gives up assassinate for other goodies. I think that is the way things should go--all INT for the pure assassin or splash around with Dex and give up assassinate. Tons of mobs in the game can't be assassinated anyway and it is useless on red named mobs.

But, giving up assassination is too much sacrifice for dex builds.
Because AC isn't so useful now, & even you decided to invest AC, you may not reach AC threshold that is useful for EE.
Heavy armored defenders can have benefit from AC, because they can wear heavy armor for AC & they also get huge PRR/MRR, AC from gear & enhancement. But, not dex fluffy builds.
On DPS wise, both int & dex builds are very similar.

[CThruTheEgo]

Thank you very much for the response and continued discussion Sev.


We will watch for Lamannia feedback on this. Keep in mind that the low hanging Acrobat speed boost should affect overall speed including stealth. While we have some room for improvement, I don't think we want stealth to provide a speed boost over unstealthed speed.

I agree that stealth speed should not be faster than non-stealth speed. That is why I suggested making the speed reductions in the assassin cores mutually exclusive with faster sneaking.

I did the math in another post to see what the acrobat speed boost actually contributed to sneak speed and, depending on the order in which the sneak speed penalty, faster sneaking, and acrobat speed boost are calculated, the resulting movement speed for a pure assassin with all of them is either 90% or 95% base movement speed. Either way, this is still way behind any other non-sneaking build with an enhanced movement speed. I think an assassin's sneak speed needs to be at least base movement speed. A removal of the sneak speed penalty, coupled with the acrobat speed boost, would put a sneaking assassin at the same speed as everyone else. All that does is allow them to play well with a group. It doesn't add any advantage to them.


Measure the Foe is not meant to be a constant buff which is why it doesn't fade away. We want it to feel like the Assassin is really good in those first 10 seconds of surprise and confusion among foes, and then they are back to normal in the next round. It's our best representation of pen and paper's surprise round.

Fair enough, but I have to ask, what's to stop someone from just dropping into sneak mode for 1 second out of every 10 to keep it at max? In this form, all it really does is reward those players that don't mind extreme micromanagement of short term buffs.


We have been discussing this as an option. If overall performance of Assassin is too low then this is a buff we can consider. As an aside, we don't want to buff Assassinate for the sole reason that CdG is better, as that ability is probably over-performing.

I'm glad to know this is still on the table. I don't want it because coup de grace is better, although I will say that it is wrong that my swashbuckler is a far better instakiller than my assassin, even though both are still fun. I want it because I think it is a good way to adapt assassins to the current game where old mechanics just don't quite meet the new standards. That is, after all, the reason for these revamps. This change, in particular, would help make assassins the lethal killers they once were.


I don't know why Lethality doesn't list the effect, DC, etc. That is something I should probably fix so players can discuss it.

Looking forward to the details and discussion.


Deadly Shadow on Lamannia provides a +2 to Assasinate DC.

We want to support Dexterity based Rogues who are Assassins, especially since the tree itself gives Dexterity to hit and damage with daggers/kukri. We wouldn't make the capstone only Intelligence. It's already enough of a disadvantage to lose out on Assassinate DC.

Fair enough, although I'm still not sure why you want to support dex based rogues in the capstone. I honestly think the dex to hit and damage in the first 2 cores are out of place because assassins are an int based build. I think the first 2 cores are fine for splashes that might want to use them so I don't think they need changing, but I really don't understand the point of dex in the capstone. There is absolutely no reason to go dex based as a pure assassin. If you're going pure as an assassin, then you're going to be using assassinate, which means you have to be int based. And I don't know why anyone would go pure and not use assassinate.


The vision is that Assassin isn't meant to be a passive mitigation tree. Their mitigation will come from debuffs. If you need passive mitigation you will want to splash it.

Fair enough.


We are looking into how much of an issue on shots are for rogues since they have lower hit points. It's a big discussion point in the player's council as well. If we address it we'd more likely add functionality to Improved Defensive Roll to cut back specifically on those big hits rather than adding more passive mitigation.

This wouldn't help assassins though. Being int based, assassins are forced into harper. Improved defensive roll in acrobat is 23 AP minimum, with a lot of those points wasted on an int based assassin just to be able to unlock it.

[Qezuzu]

Measure the Foe is not meant to be a constant buff which is why it doesn't fade away. We want it to feel like the Assassin is really good in those first 10 seconds of surprise and confusion among foes, and then they are back to normal in the next round. It's our best representation of pen and paper's surprise round.

If you're going this route, could the duration be bumped to fifteen seconds? This way its timer works better with Assassinate.

Also, this means that there's three bonus-over-time abilities whose bonus falls off all at once (MtF, Nimbleness, Killer) in the Assassin tree. It just seems a bit odd.


But, giving up assassination is too much sacrifice for dex builds.
Because AC isn't so useful now, & even you decided to invest AC, you may not reach AC threshold that is useful for EE.
Heavy armored defenders can have benefit from AC, because they can wear heavy armor for AC & they also get huge PRR/MRR, AC from gear & enhancement. But, not dex fluffy builds.
On DPS wise, both int & dex builds are very similar.

Dropping Assassinate also means you can multiclass without any real cost.

[CThruTheEgo]

I understand what you are saying, but I also agree with feedback that an Intelligence based Assassin has to pay the price to dip into Harper and pay a feat tax to function using Intelligence. If we changed Assassinate to be also Dexterity then it kills the hard choice between Dexterity and Intelligence that exists on in the current revamp.

Sev~

I'm not sure what you mean by "hard choice." There is no hard choice. There's simply no reason to go dex based as a pure assassin. If you want a dex build for dps, then you're much better off splashing, which means you're not using the capstone. In fact, the only real reason to stay pure as a rogue, is for assassinate, in which case you need to be int based if you want it to work. Dex based isn't even a consideration for assassins right now. I'm fine with that personally. I'm just pointing out that dex based isn't an option.


I love Dex builds but really do not see Dex being used for assassinate. Dex builds get the small advantage of having better AC, and if they splash monk they get Wisdom to AC as well (and they save the insightful reflex feat). The build in my sig multiclasses as a 13rogue and gives up assassinate for other goodies. I think that is the way things should go--all INT for the pure assassin or splash around with Dex and give up assassinate.

^This.

[CThruTheEgo]

Giving assassinate chance to every 20 roll may be over-power. I think Sneak Attack crit on crit is proper for Lethality enhancement.

But this is basically what it does in heroic. Why shouldn't it do the same in epics?


Threshold for defensive roll should be raised.

Agreed. Improved defensive roll in acrobat is far too costly for an assassin to be able to take advantage of it.


Let assassins use hide skill to keep sneak state like concentration skill for casters.

It's very annoying to lose assassination chance by just 1 single weak arrow. Even missed or dodged arrow can break sneak.

Casters & Divines can cast in heavy rain of arrows,
but even if that arrow deals just 1 damage,
it can be enough to break well skilled master assasin's assasination chance.

Casters & divine can use even no fail casting with quicken.

/signed.


If you're going this route, could the duration be bumped to fifteen seconds? This way its timer works better with Assassinate.

/signed. Or 12 seconds if the cooldown of assassinate is lowered. It should match the cooldown of assassinate, whatever that ends up being.


Also, this means that there's three bonus-over-time abilities whose bonus falls off all at once (MtF, Nimbleness, Killer) in the Assassin tree. It just seems a bit odd.

Yeah I'm not a fan of these mechanics either.

[Erofen]

I understand what you are saying, but I also agree with feedback that an Intelligence based Assassin has to pay the price to dip into Harper and pay a feat tax to function using Intelligence. If we changed Assassinate to be also Dexterity then it kills the hard choice between Dexterity and Intelligence that exists on in the current revamp.

Sev~
Which pigeonholes assassins into effectively one build. A fair middle ground has been suggested to add int to damage along with the dex to damage in the tree and add insightful reflexes to capstone. This would diversify build options and let each unique rogue have a chance at being effective in the Assassin PrE.


I'm not sure what you mean by "hard choice." There is no hard choice. There's simply no reason to go dex based as a pure assassin. If you want a dex build for dps, then you're much better off splashing, which means you're not using the capstone. In fact, the only real reason to stay pure as a rogue, is for assassinate, in which case you need to be int based if you want it to work. Dex based isn't even a consideration for assassins right now. I'm fine with that personally. I'm just pointing out that dex based isn't an option.

^This.

[bbqzor]

I don't know why Lethality doesn't list the effect, DC, etc. That is something I should probably fix so players can discuss it.

It doesnt list any of that because there isnt any. Its just Vorpal, like actual vorpal. Mob dies if 1k or less, 100 dmg otherwise. I think this needs a slight change, which Ill get to later.


Deadly Shadow on Lamannia provides a +2 to Assasinate DC.

Thank goodness. Some small mediocre amount of variety may be possible now, even if everyone is locked into basically the same build choices for the other 95%.

LATER: As mentioned, two points about that level 18 core. (1) It happens late enough in Heroic that regular Vorpal doesnt stay good very long. It helps you get from 18 to 20, and then very quickly degrades to relative uselessness. (2) With no DC boost below 20, there is still no real way to do anything mutliclass with assassin, if you are trying to use Assassinate from the T5.

Basically, the problem is at that stepping point nothing scales into epic. To address this, here are some things to consider. One is, to make the Vorpal effect scale somehow. Maybe its Vorpal at 18, but that core also has text that when you hit level 20 it upgrades to Improved Vorpal. I dont want to see this change put into the capstone, the idea is to try to make 18 rogue scale for multiclass guys, not to just inflate the capstone more. The idea here is that vorpal helps you go 18-20, then stops being helpful. Unless youre building focused on just hitting 20 and flipping, that decreases the value of the 18 core significantly. Which means if you multiclass rogue, you dont even need to get past 12/13, or maybe even lower. This change (or something similar in this vein, its not like I spent hours mulling this over) would make the rogue levels an incentive on their own, for the core.

The other is to go ahead and put +1-2 DC in the lv18 Core as well. This focuses not on making the rogue levels good in and of themselves, but on allowing someone with 18 rogue to still pursue assassinate dc's into epic. That makes the rogue levels appealing because of the T5 enhancements, rather than their own benefits. But the point would be theyre still appealing.

Without something along the lines of one of those, 18 rogue is just weak. And maybe thats okay, thats up for you to decide. Im just pointing it out and calling it like it is. As it stands, you either go 20 for assassinate DC, or you stop at 12/13 or less. There is no "mostly rogue assassin, little something else" build... because none of the stuff is worth building for. Maybe for mechanic or TA, not trying to comment on those. Only that the Assassin Tree itself has a weak spot right at 18, because it loses too much multiclassing to go "upwards" and doesnt have anything helpful towards going "outwards". I really think having some small DC boost there is good. Not because it helps 18-20 (seriously that isnt even hard anyhow) but because it means that character will actually live a playable existence from 20-30 afterwards. Yes, it potentially buffs heroic slightly if a multiclass 18 rogue takes their multiclass levels all the way at the end. But I would MUCH rather see a slight bump in 18-20 ease for one single build, than a complete lack of usefulness from 20 to cap for a whole range of builds. Everyone will grow out of the narrow heroic range even on that specific setup, balancing those abilities for vertical progression for many more builds seems more relevant.

Thanks, cheers.

[Saekee]

But, giving up assassination is too much sacrifice for dex builds.
Because AC isn't so useful now, & even you decided to invest AC, you may not reach AC threshold that is useful for EE.
Heavy armored defenders can have benefit from AC, because they can wear heavy armor for AC & they also get huge PRR/MRR, AC from gear & enhancement. But, not dex fluffy builds.
On DPS wise, both int & dex builds are very similar.

Fair point! But dex builds, I think, can muticlass better with monk and gain other benefits. A pure INT assassin only gets maxed incorporeality through Shadowdancer and that comes at a cost of double light damage. There is no displacement, save through clickies and the nice effect from post-improved invisi.

A multiclass can give up tier 5 in assassin (and yes, lose those nice perks like knife spec etc) and build itself in other ways.
EE is not the only aspect of the game but your point is good--when I get back to epics and cap I am curious how high I can get my AC and PRR (I know I can get the latter over 100 w/o difficulty which is handy along with avoidance stuff).
And not all mobs can be assassinated which makes non-assassinating melee rogues a fun playstyle (I live stealth for example but solo often due to parental duties).

[nokowi]

We are looking into how much of an issue on shots are for rogues since they have lower hit points. It's a big discussion point in the player's council as well. If we address it we'd more likely add functionality to Improved Defensive Roll to cut back specifically on those big hits rather than adding more passive mitigation.

Sev~

Improved defensive roll is pretty high up the acrobat tree. Acrobats can easily multiclass to get AC, PRR, dodge, blur/displacement, and toughness from defensive roll. Acrobats are actually pretty good tanks right now. I think my guildie said they had over 200 AC, 1200 HP, 25% blur, 170 PRR, and 30% dodge. They could not be one-shot. Compare this with an assassin with effectively 0 AC, 60 PRR, and 800-900 HP.

The core defensive roll feat currently has little to no value to non-acrobats. I would prefer a fix here, as it would help those who need it. A ReflexSave chance to take 1/2 damage on fatal blows would be consistent with PnP and largely solve any one-shot crit or two shot doublestrike problems. (They can still happen but players can have a chance to build around them).

I would like to hear some other opinions on defensive roll.

[nokowi]

But this is basically what it does in heroic. Why shouldn't it do the same in epics?


I would be disappointed if at End Game there were more kills from a level 18 ability than the signature assassinate ability that requires all kinds of build, gear, and play sacrifice. I get almost exactly two attacks per second. Insta kill on 20 might make it more efficient to not use stealth at all (an insta kill every 10 seconds).

I do love mortar fear. At the high end, I would say that mortal fear could proc on 20's. For this to work on all builds (Dex/Str/Int) a save (if any) would need to be viable for all builds. Putting mortal fear here frees up assassin to use more variety of weapons.

At the low end, I would suggest (Char or Rog Lvl d6 additional sneak attack) or (2*Char or Rog Lvl d6 additional sneak) attack. This could also include a save viable for Int/Dex/Str builds, or just proc on a 20.

[Grace_ana]

There's no way I could fit in improved defensive roll on my assassin, personally. Between the assassin tree, wand and scroll for survivability, the harper tree, and the halfling sneak attack dice, I will barely squeeze it all in after the changes. And honestly it's not an ability I find particularly useful anyway in high-level content.

[amsharkwei]

1) Increase sneak speed

3) Decrease cooldown of assassinate to 12 seconds

4) Scale lethality into epics by proccing an assassinate check on vorpal: On vorpal, perform an assassinate using the assassinate DC. On failed save, target is killed instantly.

5) Change deadly shadow: I think the capstone should provide +4 int, +1 assassinate DC, +4d6 sneak attack damage, +10 melee power, +4 reflex save.


these is necessary, and improtant for rogue assassin

[Bobby88888]

Sev, I'd love to know what you think of these and if any of them are still an option.

This is just a quick summary of the changes I would still like to see implemented. Altogether, these changes would increase the power of the assassin to make them more competative with the other revamped classes, but without turning it into an equivalent easy button and without significantly altering their unique playstyle. In fact, many of these changes would facilitate their playstyle and revitalize them to the lethal killers they were when the level cap was 20.

1) Increase sneak speed: As stated previously, giving assassin at least 100% base movement speed does not increase their power in any way, but it does increase their compatibility with groups. Drop faster sneaking altogether, or move it back to acrobat for other rogues to use, then add to each of the first five cores a 10% reduction in the sneak speed penalty, so by the level 18 core an assassin would have no penalty. I can't think of any reason why this shouldn't happen. If taking faster sneaking along with these reductions would be considered too fast (and I think it might), then make them mutually exclusive. Maybe each of the first 3 cores locks you out of 1 rank of faster sneaking, and vice versa, so by the third core, you wouldn't be able to take faster sneaking at all.

2) Measure the foe fade 1 stack every 6 seconds: Under the current proposal, it will simply be tedious to drop into sneak every 10 seconds to keep the buff up. Changing it to fade 1 stack every 6 seconds would still require dropping into sneak every so often to keep it up (more often, in fact, if you want to keep it maxed), but would not require extreme micromanagement to get any benefit from it at all. Less micromanagement means more fun. I think this would also encourage being in sneak mode for more time overall, which certainly fits thematically.

3) Decrease cooldown of assassinate to 12 seconds: This is not too short and will enable the assassin to use its defining ability more often. Decreasing the cooldown will make assassinate more competitive with coup de grace without simply raising the DC. Having a shorter cooldown on assassinate also encourages assassins to be in sneak mode more often.

4) Scale lethality into epics by proccing an assassinate check on vorpal: On vorpal, perform an assassinate using the assassinate DC. On failed save, target is killed instantly. On successful save, target takes 10d6 additional sneak attack damage. The extra damage on a successful save comes to an average of 1.75. On an assassin with an essentially no fail DC, this change would effectively preserve lethality by having it scale appropriately into epics. It would essentially maintain the same effect as it does in heroics. I don't see why this shouldn't be the case.

5) Change deadly shadow: I think the capstone should provide +4 int, +1 assassinate DC, +4d6 sneak attack damage, 10 melee power. This provides a total of +3 DCs on a pure assassin, which is 2 more than we currently get.

6) Increase light armor mastery PRR to 5/10/15: While I appreciate the melee power debuff, I still think a slight increase in more consistent damage mitigation is necessary. An additional 9 PRR is not going to amount to much, but it will help assassins in the area that they most need it.

I completely agree with CThru on 1. 2. 3. and 6. But 4. and 5. I disagree slightly.

4. I think this is too much, letting Execute perform assassinate attempt on Vorpal however sounds interesting. For Lethality I like the idea of SA damage being multiplied on crits and or vorpals but I would take this over nothing any day.

5. I think there should be no bonus assassinate DC in the enhancement tree, instead either put in EDs (SD core 6 or something) or items (say an augment) since then the bonus can be given where some people want it - end game, rather than completely trivialising lower epics. Really we shouldn't get any more DC but increased versatility in assassinate such as reduced CD or being able to assassinate orange nameds on EH/EE or bypass DB etc.


We will watch for Lamannia feedback on this. Keep in mind that the low hanging Acrobat speed boost should affect overall speed including stealth. While we have some room for improvement, I don't think we want stealth to provide a speed boost over unstealthed speed.

Measure the Foe is not meant to be a constant buff which is why it doesn't fade away. We want it to feel like the Assassin is really good in those first 10 seconds of surprise and confusion among foes, and then they are back to normal in the next round. It's our best representation of pen and paper's surprise round.

We have been discussing this as an option. If overall performance of Assassin is too low then this is a buff we can consider. As an aside, we don't want to buff Assassinate for the sole reason that CdG is better, as that ability is probably over-performing.

I don't know why Lethality doesn't list the effect, DC, etc. That is something I should probably fix so players can discuss it.

Deadly Shadow on Lamannia provides a +2 to Assasinate DC.

We want to support Dexterity based Rogues who are Assassins, especially since the tree itself gives Dexterity to hit and damage with daggers/kukri. We wouldn't make the capstone only Intelligence. It's already enough of a disadvantage to lose out on Assassinate DC.

The vision is that Assassin isn't meant to be a passive mitigation tree. Their mitigation will come from debuffs. If you need passive mitigation you will want to splash it.

We are looking into how much of an issue on shots are for rogues since they have lower hit points. It's a big discussion point in the player's council as well. If we address it we'd more likely add functionality to Improved Defensive Roll to cut back specifically on those big hits rather than adding more passive mitigation.

Sev~

Faster Sneaking: Yes it shouldn't be faster than not sneaking but assassins as the masters of stealth should be able to get up to about the same speed as not sneaking, I think 30/60/90% is fine for the Stealthy enhancement but rather than 25/50/75 or to make it so only assassins get the rest put 5% per core from cores 2-6 or something.

Measure the Foe: Ok fair enough, I like the concept of adding like a surprise round style but perhaps for DDO it isn't quite enough.

Assassinate CD: Yes reduce it to 12, not because coup is better but because assassinate is fairly weak now and needs something to put it back up there, DC isn't the way to do that since then it is just trying to top coup, CD or other ideas from above are the way to do it imo.

Deadly Shadow: I disagree with the assassinate DC here for stated reasons above in post. Keeping Dex here however for the Dex builds is great.

Ok so no PRR, on this defensive roll option... I like it, maybe make the base feat when below 50% and the improvement up to 100% HP? or were you thinking of redoing it entirely.


So, is blitz meant to be a constant buff? But, not measure the foe & killer?


Giving assassinate chance to every 20 roll may be over-power. I think Sneak Attack crit on crit is proper for Lethality enhancement.


Yup, squishy, but deadly. I think the best mitigation method for rogues are using their GUTS & WIT :D
I like to see more aggro management methods(Bluff, Diplo, sometimes Intim) & some roguish CC(SAP, hamstring, slicing blow) here.
It's really too hard to get enough social skill points for harder EE contents like stormhorn. Even with full skill point to social skill, +20 bluff, diplo gear, some extra cha gears doesn't make much difference on harder EE contents. It seems just always fail on that social skill check whether you fully invested for it or not.


Defensive roll & slippery mind are the last bastion for squishy rogues. It should let rogues narrowly escape brushes with death like its description. :D
Sadly, it's currently not. I think granting some temporary hp & dodge on successful reflex save would be helpful for that emergency situation. Also, granting some additional will save on 2nd roll for slippery mind, too.
Threshold for defensive roll should be raised.

-----------------------------
I like to add something here.

Let assassins use hide skill to keep sneak state like concentration skill for casters.

It's very annoying to lose assassination chance by just 1 single weak arrow. Even missed or dodged arrow can break sneak.

Casters & Divines can cast in heavy rain of arrows,
but even if that arrow deals just 1 damage,
it can be enough to break well skilled master assasin's assasination chance.

Casters & divine can use even no fail casting with quicken.

Good points, more with the social skills sounds fun and interesting!

Slippery mind is ok but unless you drop 33 AP in acro (no int assassin will do this) defensive roll isn't very good at all.

Hide/MS DC to not break stealth. Interesting idea. Perhaps if your missed you remain stealthed and/or the conc style check



Agreed. And that further illustrates my point that the game is stacked against actual stealth play in groups.

In that situation, the stealth character should be able to open the door for the group or disarm a trap or take some other action that makes the path clear for the group. That is the reward for slowing down and waiting for a stealthy character to do their part.

Yeah. It may not make perfect logical sense but anything to give stealth play a leg up and encourage smarter play rather than zerging through.
Given how hard it can be to get the discreet/devious/insidious cunning options, and that no one bothers, maybe they should also receive a large xp bonus, much more than conquest etc. say 15/30/45 (randomly picked numbers make sure they are balanced). Most quests you can't get this anyway thanks to kill x group of mobs to proceed, now kill y group, etc but for the quests you can get it might encourage people to try a refreshing change of pace.

[Dreppo]

I understand what you are saying, but I also agree with feedback that an Intelligence based Assassin has to pay the price to dip into Harper and pay a feat tax to function using Intelligence. If we changed Assassinate to be also Dexterity then it kills the hard choice between Dexterity and Intelligence that exists on in the current revamp.

Sev~

Sev, what hard choice between DEX and INT?

Currently on live it's not a hard choice -- INT is very clearly superior.

Now consider the revamp, just looking at changes that affect DEX or INT (not neutral changes that affect all builds equally). For INT, nothing really changes. However for DEX there are a couple of changes: 1) the assassin capstone now grants 2 DEX; and 2) shadow dodge (acrobat tree) now only grants 3 DEX for 6 AP whereas on live it grants 6 DEX for 3 AP. The net change on DEX builds is that they spend 3 AP more only to end up with a DEX that's 1 lower than they have now on live. So the advantage INT has over DEX will widen with the revamp.

[redoubt]

I would be disappointed if at End Game there were more kills from a level 18 ability than the signature assassinate ability that requires all kinds of build, gear, and play sacrifice. I get almost exactly two attacks per second. Insta kill on 20 might make it more efficient to not use stealth at all (an insta kill every 10 seconds).



What if that level 18 core used the assassinate DC and had a 12-15 second timer and required the attack to be a sneak attack?

People are saying it would be too powerful, but consider that:
1. It is limited to once every 12-15 seconds.
2. You have to have a successful assassinate check (likely without MtF)
3. You cannot have agro when you do it.
4. Splashes won't have the bonus to assassinate and INT from the capstone.
5. Actual assassinates will still be the "lead in" attack and can take advantage of the bonus from MtF.

For comparison on cooldowns:
1. Coup De Grace: 15 seconds
2. FOD: 6-8 seconds (sorc-wiz)
3. Wail (AOE): 50-60 seconds
4. Circle (AOE): 30 seconds
5. Trap the soul: 3.25-5.5 seconds
6. PK: 6-8 seconds

A caster can have all of #2-6 and rotate through them. I'm not sure how getting one initial insta-kill (assassinate) followed quickly by a second (lethality) then getting one every 12-15 seconds is OP when you look at the other options out there? My fire spec sorc kills 6 mobs per energy burst and does it every 30 seconds. A volley of fireballs does the same in a much faster method. Barbarians kill 6 at a time with the capstone and refill their rages at the shrine. Total DPS available today is so high that I find it hard to call ONE insta-kill every 12-15 seconds over powered (and you still need to roll a vorpal, followed by a successful assassinate check.)

[Ayseifn]

What if that level 18 core used the assassinate DC and had a 12-15 second timer and required the attack to be a sneak attack?

People are saying it would be too powerful, but consider that:
1. It is limited to once every 12-15 seconds.
2. You have to have a successful assassinate check (likely without MtF)
3. You cannot have agro when you do it.
4. Splashes won't have the bonus to assassinate and INT from the capstone.
5. Actual assassinates will still be the "lead in" attack and can take advantage of the bonus from MtF.

For comparison on cooldowns:
1. Coup De Grace: 15 seconds
2. FOD: 6-8 seconds (sorc-wiz)
3. Wail (AOE): 50-60 seconds
4. Circle (AOE): 30 seconds
5. Trap the soul: 3.25-5.5 seconds
6. PK: 6-8 seconds

A caster can have all of #2-6 and rotate through them. I'm not sure how getting one initial insta-kill (assassinate) followed quickly by a second (lethality) then getting one every 12-15 seconds is OP when you look at the other options out there? My fire spec sorc kills 6 mobs per energy burst and does it every 30 seconds. A volley of fireballs does the same in a much faster method. Barbarians kill 6 at a time with the capstone and refill their rages at the shrine. Total DPS available today is so high that I find it hard to call ONE insta-kill every 12-15 seconds over powered (and you still need to roll a vorpal, followed by a successful assassinate check.)

There are tons of ways to get SAs while still having aggro. Blind, stunned, frozen, unbalancing strikes trip, bluff, deception, stoned, certain types of paralysing, etc.

[draven1]

What if that level 18 core used the assassinate DC and had a 12-15 second timer and required the attack to be a sneak attack?



I'd rather see some instakill-like ability on "Execute", not on "Lethality".
The former requires player skill, while the latter does not.

Instead, "Lethality" can have SA damage crit on crit hits.

[mezzorco]

I understand what you are saying, but I also agree with feedback that an Intelligence based Assassin has to pay the price to dip into Harper and pay a feat tax to function using Intelligence. If we changed Assassinate to be also Dexterity then it kills the hard choice between Dexterity and Intelligence that exists on in the current revamp.

Sev~

What about DEX not fully contributing to the DC?

Assassinate could benefit from INT mod and 1/3 DEX mod, for example.

This way INT focused rogues have better DC, DEX focused rogues have easily workable builds, and both have to invest in both abilities for max performance.

[kmoustakas]

I understand what you are saying, but I also agree with feedback that an Intelligence based Assassin has to pay the price to dip into Harper and pay a feat tax to function using Intelligence. If we changed Assassinate to be also Dexterity then it kills the hard choice between Dexterity and Intelligence that exists on in the current revamp.

Sev~

I agree.

[Warrax23]

Why not just add a .05% chance in the tier 5 of assassination to simply kill something (Non red+ named)? You are supposed to be a master of killing things, not just from cover/hiding. You know mobs weak spots and even in a one on one battle you'll know where to strike for the most lethal amounts. (Also 15d6 isn't alot of damage I don't know why that number is being used as a beacon) When people are hitting in the 2k+ damage a swing 90 damage max is kind of a joke.

[redoubt]

There are tons of ways to get SAs while still having aggro. Blind, stunned, frozen, unbalancing strikes trip, bluff, deception, stoned, certain types of paralysing, etc.

Assassins can use a weapon to create blind or a deception bluff. They also have enough skills to use bluff. The rest would be places they piggy back on states others create.

But you did leave out the biggest way not to have agro. Let someone else attack first, then move in for the kill.


I'd rather see some instakill-like ability on "Execute", not on "Lethality".
The former requires player skill, while the latter does not.

Instead, "Lethality" can have SA damage crit on crit hits.

I think putting an assassinate check on a T4 enhancement would be over powered.

At the level 18 core you have to be nearly pure rogue to use it and spend 31 points in the tree. At execute you could get it for 4 rogue and 21 points.

[dualscissors]

I think putting an assassinate check on a T4 enhancement would be over powered.

At the level 18 core you have to be nearly pure rogue to use it and spend 31 points in the tree. At execute you could get it for 4 rogue and 21 points.

Yes, level 18 would be a better place for a secondary assassinate because of the level 4 factor.

[nokowi]

What if that level 18 core used the assassinate DC and had a 12-15 second timer and required the attack to be a sneak attack?

People are saying it would be too powerful, but consider that:
1. It is limited to once every 12-15 seconds.
2. You have to have a successful assassinate check (likely without MtF)
3. You cannot have agro when you do it.
4. Splashes won't have the bonus to assassinate and INT from the capstone.
5. Actual assassinates will still be the "lead in" attack and can take advantage of the bonus from MtF.

For comparison on cooldowns:
1. Coup De Grace: 15 seconds
2. FOD: 6-8 seconds (sorc-wiz)
3. Wail (AOE): 50-60 seconds
4. Circle (AOE): 30 seconds
5. Trap the soul: 3.25-5.5 seconds
6. PK: 6-8 seconds

A caster can have all of #2-6 and rotate through them. I'm not sure how getting one initial insta-kill (assassinate) followed quickly by a second (lethality) then getting one every 12-15 seconds is OP when you look at the other options out there? My fire spec sorc kills 6 mobs per energy burst and does it every 30 seconds. A volley of fireballs does the same in a much faster method. Barbarians kill 6 at a time with the capstone and refill their rages at the shrine. Total DPS available today is so high that I find it hard to call ONE insta-kill every 12-15 seconds over powered (and you still need to roll a vorpal, followed by a successful assassinate check.)

1. I personally don't like tying the level 18 ability to assassinate DC. There are Dex and yes even Str rogues still being played. Vorpal originally worked for everyone. It is poor game design to pigeonhole an ability to one stat when there may be future adjustments to str/dex builds. This causes 2 fixes instead of 1.

2. Sorcs and barbs are supposed to be the caster/melee masters of destruction. (not assassins)

3. We used to have classes with roles, which meant it was OK for one class to have less dps than another because we each filled a role. I am sad that this is no longer a part of DDO.

4. I prefer mortal fear (which gives you time to adjust your tactics) to a random insta kill (which doesn't). Part of playing assassin effectively is predicting your environment. For me, this is not as much fun when too much randomness is added.

[redoubt]

1. I personally don't like tying the level 18 ability to assassinate DC. There are Dex and yes even Str rogues still being played. Vorpal originally worked for everyone. It is poor game design to pigeonhole an ability to one stat when there may be future adjustments to str/dex builds. This causes 2 fixes instead of 1.

2. Sorcs and barbs are supposed to be the caster/melee masters of destruction. (not assassins)

3. We used to have classes with roles, which meant it was OK for one class to have less dps than another because we each filled a role. I am sad that this is no longer a part of DDO.

4. I prefer mortal fear (which gives you time to adjust your tactics) to a random insta kill (which doesn't). Part of playing assassin effectively is predicting your environment. For me, this is not as much fun when too much randomness is added.

1. Just curious, do you really think the vorpal effect on Lethality works well into epics?

2. And they are. Not trying to bring assassin up to that point. I don't think lethality would.

3. Second time this came up today. I liked having roles. Tanks, and dps and healers and CC and trappers. I thought that was great. I'd even go back to it if we could. I just don't think the game would survive turning it back. It would require getting rid of hirelings, making traps deadly again and removing most of the self healing. I think too many people would quit.

4. I've never had mortal fear. So I won't comment on it.

[CaptainSpacePony]

I'm not sure what you mean by "hard choice." There is no hard choice. There's simply no reason to go dex based as a pure assassin. If you want a dex build for dps, then you're much better off splashing, which means you're not using the capstone. In fact, the only real reason to stay pure as a rogue, is for assassinate, in which case you need to be int based if you want it to work. Dex based isn't even a consideration for assassins right now. I'm fine with that personally. I'm just pointing out that dex based isn't an option..

Outside of star chuckers, are Dex-based builds currently a real option for anyone? I can't think of any other build of anything that is strongest as a Dex build.

[Saekee]

Outside of star chuckers, are Dex-based builds currently a real option for anyone? I can't think of any other build of anything that is strongest as a Dex build.

It is a fair question. I think it works for some builds (like the one in my sig). It usually involves classes that can't benefit from Divine might or kensei power surges or other such buffs. Anyway the starchuckers are getting 3 Dex lost via the changes to Shadow Toggle. Makes me wonder now if future multiclassed versions will even bother with rogue levels as a result--probably will swap them with ranger or some other split.

[Gothdom]

I have tried the assassin's new enhancements on lammania today and I love this one:

Execute: Melee Assassinate attack: +3[W] damage. If target is below 30% health, deal 500 damage. This damage scales with 200% Melee Power. (Cooldown: 15 seconds)

Yet, the rest is still lacking. Everything is immune to almost all the poison attacks. I'd prefer a passive ability like execute on crits, and an active that turns crits into vorpals for a few seconds and a long cooldown. I'd feel more like an assassin, and I could lead an assassinate attack then manage the mob while I run away in solo to strike back later... I just feel something is still missing.

[nokowi]

1. Just curious, do you really think the vorpal effect on Lethality works well into epics?

2. And they are. Not trying to bring assassin up to that point. I don't think lethality would.

3. Second time this came up today. I liked having roles. Tanks, and dps and healers and CC and trappers. I thought that was great. I'd even go back to it if we could. I just don't think the game would survive turning it back. It would require getting rid of hirelings, making traps deadly again and removing most of the self healing. I think too many people would quit.

4. I've never had mortal fear. So I won't comment on it.

1. No, but I would prefer if any new direct damage implementation works for all level 18 rogues, not just int DC builds. The current ability might as well do nothing in epics.

2. It wouldn't be OP. That doesn't mean that this is necessarily needed or desirable.

3. The game will likely not go back to roles. That doesn't mean that every build has to do everything equally well. Think of a "tank" being able to solo but taking longer to do so. (hey, wouldn't a second person be useful!) Think of a DPS toon wanting one other party member to soak up some of the damage. The idea is to make some class synergy/cooperation beneficial without going back to a required role system.

4. Mortal Fear: Any roll of a 20 cuts non-boss HP in half. This scales nicely through any content.

[Chaios]

An assassinate attempt when they are aware of us would make sense in that case. Dex vs Dex (i.e reflex save). But against an enemy that is unaware of use (i.e. we are sneaking and don't have agro) fort makes sense. They are not dodging or avoiding us in anyway. Its about determining if their body is tough enough to survive the assassinate attempt (thus a fort save.)

But maybe that would be a flavor change to the other pseudo assassinates that don't require sneak, to put them against the reflex save instead...?

Last sentence is interesting, I like it. But still gotta clarify the idea of a reflex save...

1) A fighter is stabbing a Gnoll in the face, when suddenly a Droam Warmage peeps from behind a rock and blasts the fighter square in the back of the head with a fireball... What does he roll? Did he know he was about to be fireballed?

2) A barbarian, drunk on his new found powers of self sufficiency, is capering deleriously through a dungeon, axes swinging like great metalline wings, when from floor walls and ceiling for yards in every direction, and with no warning indication possibly penetrating the miasma of blood and glee circumscribing the fellows world, sprout whirling slicing blades! Did he know the trap was there? What does he roll?

In both cases the character (and probably the player) had no idea that something was about to happen, and in both cases the character rolls a reflex save. This should illustrate that awareness of danger is not a precondition of calling for a reflex save.

An assassination attempt is a precise physical attack directed at an anatomical location where the assassins knowledge of anatomy, physiology and craft indicate that an organ absolutely essential to the continued functioning of the the victim as a living entity can be interfered with sufficiently to prevent it from continuing to perform such function. It isn't a magical attack on the will to live, or a focusing of cosmic vibrations disrupting the flow of the victims life sustaining Ki, or even a poison. It is a severed Aorta, a punctured heart, or a snapped neck, among other things. The only thing, other than the Assassin's skill, that might prevent such attack from resulting near instant death, is if the victim has some intuition that catastrophic danger is imminent and is lucky enough to move just enough that the Assassin doesn't quite hit the extremely precise target required for a successful Assassination. There is no being tough enough to survive Assassination, there is only being twitchy enough that the Assassin failed. Thematic argument.

Practical argument. There are more opportunities for different types of characters and their associated types of play to be useful, to find synergies and to cooperate if their signature skills affect mobs through different mechanisms. Sometimes you need an archer, sometimes you need an axer. If the Necromancer knows that the mob's fort save is astronomical, then the party sends in the assassin in to force a different save. It could be game changing, at least for a while. If not to be game changing, why change anything?

[amsharkwei]

Last sentence is interesting, I like it. But still gotta clarify the idea of a reflex save...

1) A fighter is stabbing a Gnoll in the face, when suddenly a Droam Warmage peeps from behind a rock and blasts the fighter square in the back of the head with a fireball... What does he roll? Did he know he was about to be fireballed?

2) A barbarian, drunk on his new found powers of self sufficiency, is capering deleriously through a dungeon, axes swinging like great metalline wings, when from floor walls and ceiling for yards in every direction, and with no warning indication possibly penetrating the miasma of blood and glee circumscribing the fellows world, sprout whirling slicing blades! Did he know the trap was there? What does he roll?

In both cases the character (and probably the player) had no idea that something was about to happen, and in both cases the character rolls a reflex save. This should illustrate that awareness of danger is not a precondition of calling for a reflex save.

An assassination attempt is a precise physical attack directed at an anatomical location where the assassins knowledge of anatomy, physiology and craft indicate that an organ absolutely essential to the continued functioning of the the victim as a living entity can be interfered with sufficiently to prevent it from continuing to perform such function. It isn't a magical attack on the will to live, or a focusing of cosmic vibrations disrupting the flow of the victims life sustaining Ki, or even a poison. It is a severed Aorta, a punctured heart, or a snapped neck, among other things. The only thing, other than the Assassin's skill, that might prevent such attack from resulting near instant death, is if the victim has some intuition that catastrophic danger is imminent and is lucky enough to move just enough that the Assassin doesn't quite hit the extremely precise target required for a successful Assassination. There is no being tough enough to survive Assassination, there is only being twitchy enough that the Assassin failed. Thematic argument.

Practical argument. There are more opportunities for different types of characters and their associated types of play to be useful, to find synergies and to cooperate if their signature skills affect mobs through different mechanisms. Sometimes you need an archer, sometimes you need an axer. If the Necromancer knows that the mob's fort save is astronomical, then the party sends in the assassin in to force a different save. It could be game changing, at least for a while. If not to be game changing, why change anything?

interesting story

[HuneyMunster]

1. I personally don't like tying the level 18 ability to assassinate DC. There are Dex and yes even Str rogues still being played. Vorpal originally worked for everyone. It is poor game design to pigeonhole an ability to one stat when there may be future adjustments to str/dex builds. This causes 2 fixes instead of 1.



I would prefer a 2 sec paralyse that induces helplessness with no save when target has too high hp to be instant killed from vorpal effect. This would also make it worth taking for Acrobat asa they gain extra dmg to helpless from No Mercy. So this would help both int, dex and str builds at the same time. It would also free up a twist slot as balance strikes would no longer be needed by some.

Edit:
Forgot Acrobat capstone already has vorpal knockdown so maybe increase the vorpal range of Lethality to 19-20 when using staffs. I cant see this as a problem for staff user as single weapon fighting gets vorpal 19-20 that works with Northwind.

[Linvak]

I still wish to propose more CC then damage. I was thinking of a Shiradi type proc on sneak attacks. Not in the form of dmg, but in crowd control.

5-15%? maybe higher random proc of 1 effect

-Guardbreaking
-Limb Chopping (maybe rename to Ligament Slicing) attack speed/move speed/tripping?
-Stuns?
-anything else?

Could go a dmg route with bleeds

Even though it's been rough playing rogue lately with everything new being undead, I still think their damage is pretty high up there. If everyone's really set on increasing dmg, I think that increase should stick to sneak attacks, and things that can be sneak attacked. Back in the day, I felt like as long as I was getting sneak attacks, no one was doing more dmg then me. I like the idea of being rewarded for getting sneak attacks. I don't want rogue to turn into a Bard that can just run up to everything face to face alone, and drop everything dead. I want to continue using my party members as meat shields, steal their kills, and hide in the shadow. Because if you don't you're dead.

The other thing right now, is why are rogues being prioritized by mobs? In a group of Palis/Barbs/Bards, I should be the least noticable, yet groups run past all of my party members and surround me while being attacked. I don't even have to attack them, i just have to be in the vicinity even if members of my group are ahead. I understand that the AI was improved to target casters/healers, but lets be honest, in Shadow Form, compared to the yelling, raging barbarian.....why me?

PS. Basically nerf Barbs by making them intimidate every 3 seconds while raged based on STR mod : pppppppppppppp

[amsharkwei]

Lethality: Any attack roll of 20 followed by critical confirmation , If the target HP below (100*rogue level), you will kill that living targets. or deal (10*rogue level) point damage , this damage sacled with 200% melee power.

[ezmeweatherwax]

The good:
-Nimbleness -- a move in the right direction for much-needed defense.
-capstone upgrade
-Faster Sneaking -- where it belongs...what acrobat actually sneaks?
-Venomed blades AP reduction
-Adding some actual usefulness to poisoned strikes
-Scroll Mastery AP reduction
-Haste Boost AP reduction - and faster run speed to get there

The needed:
-remove the ridiculous animation for Assassin's Trick...please...as is the mob can be gone and in the next room before it finishes
-Nimbleness -- useless without an equal dodge cap increase embedded with it
***-Higher cap on Vorpal Strikes (higher hp allowance on enemies) than ANY other effect/weapon/class in the game -- L18 Rogue needs to be sexier, and The Assassin by definition needs to be the most deadly in re to vorpal capability. Vorpal Strikes is where you accomplish that...this needs to remain the rogue "unique" spot. Needs to be significant enough to be noticeable.
-most still choose haste boost over damage boost...consider that
-more critical damage, not removal of what little we were given
-Shadowdancer improvements, including an HP addition (as an aside, we've all seen the eidolon neck, no excuse for no shadow summon in that tree anymore)


As is, the only self-healing comes through the ability to engage the scroll mastery in the mech tree. Are we getting ANYTHING to help with this? As is, you can't exactly scroll heal yourself while being beat on, but it's the best that we pure rogues got. We don't get healers, the game doesn't have them any more. So, what's happening with rogue defense? And where's our light armor with massive fort benefits, exceptional con, etc?

[Gothdom]

The more I read this thread and the more I play with the new tree in lammania, the more I think assassins should be the kings of crits and vorpals.

I mean, an assassin knows the weakness of the bodies. Technically, their strikes should be "pure". The assassins, as I see it, need speed (regular and stealthed), more doublestrike, better crit range and better vorpal range also. The new tree is a step in the good direction, but won't go all the way. You should all go and try it.

[redoubt]

Lethality: Any attack roll of 20 followed by critical confirmation , If the target HP below (100*rogue level), you will kill that living targets. or deal (10*rogue level) point damage , this damage sacled with 200% melee power.

The ability requires 18 rogue levels. The range of use of this would then be:

1800hp to 2000hp vulnerable.
180-200 points of damage.

While I still prefer the idea of an assassinate check on a vorpal roll, this idea at least would scale if modified a little bit:

If target HP is < 100 * char level, the target dies. If not, do 50 * char level in untyped damage. Scales with 200% melee power.

By switching it to character level it opens two things:
1. 18/2 split can take full advantage of it.
2. epic levels continue to improve it.

[amsharkwei]

The ability requires 18 rogue levels. The range of use of this would then be:

1800hp to 2000hp vulnerable.
180-200 points of damage.

While I still prefer the idea of an assassinate check on a vorpal roll, this idea at least would scale if modified a little bit:

If target HP is < 100 * char level, the target dies. If not, do 50 * char level in untyped damage. Scales with 200% melee power.

By switching it to character level it opens two things:
1. 18/2 split can take full advantage of it.
2. epic levels continue to improve it.

Thank you sir, "make an assassinate check on a vorpal roll" is my idae, but It seems Producer didn't want adopt it.

[ezmeweatherwax]

Rogues have UMD and don't have Rage preventing them from casting if they need a healing source.

Sev~


This really needs to be addressed. Yes, a proper pure rogue will have both UMD and scroll mastery, but then what? Worked fine in the old L20 content (ToD, LoB, Hox), but the game has moved on. What rogue has the concentration skill check to use those heal scrolls while being beaten on? What the devs need to remember here is that "healers" do NOT exist anymore. So, run into epic cabal and hang out in a cloud of glitterdust with a wad of heal scrolls in hand until you drop dead of physical damage whilst the scattered remains of those heal scrolls are pounded to pulp by barefoot hobgoblins? But wait, I had Nimbleness...why...

You want to skip this, fine, but make the changes to the trickery and the dps so awesome that even the bards and pallies will feel motivated to heal the new rogues. Go glass cannon if you must, but don't forget the cannon part of things.

[Faltout]

This really needs to be addressed. Yes, a proper pure rogue will have both UMD and scroll mastery, but then what? Worked fine in the old L20 content (ToD, LoB, Hox), but the game has moved on. What rogue has the concentration skill check to use those heal scrolls while being beaten on?
Key being "while being beaten on". Why stand still and be beaten? When you take damage, you have many abilities to escape the fight for a little while allowing you to heal yourself and approach the battle differently since head on is probably not working for a rogue...

What the devs need to remember here is that "healers" do NOT exist anymore.
WRONG. Healers do exist, I find them very often and I also play one healing all characters no matter what (even warforged with a ton of HP). And even if they didn't exist then that's no reason to balance a game towards non-existent healers. Because that again serves to lose more and more healers that feel useless.

So, run into epic cabal and hang out in a cloud of glitterdust with a wad of heal scrolls in hand until you drop dead of physical damage whilst the scattered remains of those heal scrolls are pounded to pulp by barefoot hobgoblins? But wait, I had Nimbleness...why...
Solo: Pull one monster at a time with bluff.
Party: Let the others head in first and attract glitterdust. You stay behind and use a scroll of true sight. Focus your attacks on the loremaster and the shamans. If you're an assassin build, you can jump over the rest of the fight and head straight for them. No need to worry for the monsters. They are busy with the rest of the party. And any AOE spell/effect you will evade.
Solo end fight: Find a safe spot or keep running around. They are not that fast.

[Full_Bleed]

The more I read this thread and the more I play with the new tree in lammania, the more I think assassins should be the kings of crits and vorpals.
An assassin isn't even the king of killing helpless targets, let alone the kings of crits and vorpals.

Nice thought, but it will not happen.

[gwonbush]

The needed:
-remove the ridiculous animation for Assassin's Trick...please...as is the mob can be gone and in the next room before it finishes


From what I've seen in Lam, it's now a quick attack animation, takes half a second to a full second to resolve and continue your normal attack sequence.

[Halfelves]

Snip:




Rogues have UMD and don't have Rage preventing them from casting if they need a healing source.



Sev~

I didn't read all 50 something pages, so I'm not sure if someone mentioned this, but I have tried to self heal using only potions and UMD.... It doesn't work very well at all. I spend all my time staring at the bar waiting for the cool down to go off for the heal scroll. Not saying I'm an uber player or anything, probably just average if that. All I have to say is I hate rogue lives, even though assassin is fun when I'm running through a rogue life, I liked a rogue life one time, and that was because I mixed it with barbarian for hps. What I hate the most is, they never have enough hitpoints. Ever. I get out quick and go to a life I like.

[dualscissors]

From what I've seen in Lam, it's now a quick attack animation, takes half a second to a full second to resolve and continue your normal attack sequence.

Good to hear.

As a shameless reminder, if the Devs are coding the Assassin's Trick animation to be faster, I was hoping that the feat Improved Feint could be given the same shortened animation treatment.

Technically this isn't something in the rogue trees but the feat is a rogue issue through and through. No one takes this feat if they might want to because it is slooooooow as well as broken (movement/attack breaks the benefit).

Here's hoping for Improved Feint, which would be an added CC boon to rogues.

[Severlin]

We are behind on this thread and will be catching up in the next two days. Feedback won't be incorporated into the next Lamannia build but we plan to go through the thread and discuss internally before live.

Sev~

[Bobby88888]

Assassins really aren't anywhere near there yet...
The revamped Assassin still does a lot less damage than the unrevamped Mech before xbow animation fix (thank you for that btw it was badly needed) and has less utility and survivability. They also have less survivability and damage than Acrobats.
The way I see it within Rogue Mech is utility, Acro is survivability and Assassin is damage. That is where each is best but they are still good in both of the others but right now Assassin is last in them all.

Make Assassins the absolute kings of SA damage and crits, and at killing helpless targets. More SA dice and let SA damage crit. Maybe even more multipliers on crits and crit range but you gotta make sure you don't go too far there. This is where an Assassin should fit into DDO.

Assassinate is the 'iconic' insta kill ability but in DDO it is the weakest and imo it should be the best. DCs are fine (I have heard you can assassinate almost nothign in ToEE but???) but it is a "Stealth Melee Assassinate Attack" by description so why exactly does DB etc block it when they say they block MAGICAL death effects. Nothing magical about a dagger across thee throat, through the heart, etc. Let assassinate ignore DB (I like how DW can block it but since adds more tactics to your play so just change the description there OR make it pass that too if you want.), let assassinate hit orange nameds on EH/EE and reduce the CD on assassinate to 12 seconds.

I also think to open up more build diversity you should put Int to hit and damage with daggers and kukris in core 1 and 2 since that frees up a high amount of mandatory AP spent, at the least it lets you reallocate a few points.

To make hitting moving targets with assassinate easier a slight bump in reach even if only with daggers and kukris wouldn't go amiss, even if only when stealthed. When server and comp don't agree on location hard to get assassinate off on your target.

Drop Sneak Attack Training cost to 1 AP per rank. Everywhere except for here and in Ninja Spy tree 1 SA die = 1 AP and often comes with more abilities tagged on. Add more SA dice too, either 1/core or make Sneak attack Training 2 or 3 per rank (at 2 ap a rank) though I like the idea of cores better to make it more unique to high level assassins. Or both but that seems a bit excessive to me.

Lethality is worthless atm but the perfect place to make assassins 'lethal' again. Your SA damage can now critically hit using your weapons multiplier (or static x3 or something if that is too much). Also either make it so SA damage and normal damage does 2x damage to helpless targets OR you do +0.5x damage to helpless targets (for 1.5x with SA damage and 2x with normal damage.). Assassins have no way to create the helpless state themselves so this seems perfectly reasonable to me and may help to make CC a more common thing if an Assassin is in the group just to get their extra damage flowing. This adds build diversity to the whole game and give Assassins a small boost depending on the party. Sounds like a win-win situation to me.

I saw a suggestion somewhere to change executes name and make it work on mobs below 50% hp instead so the name nolonger implies killing blow which is fine if thats what it takes to get a better trigger point (much easier to tell 50% hp than 30%) can this damage crit?? if not maybe it should? OR if damage doesn't crit just making it so it can crit in some fashion but the main concern here is the trigger point because 30% is hard to determine, even a little marker on HP bars at 30% or % value of HP left in focus orb is enough.

Poison Strikes right now are worthless. Make the base abilities better and either bump to DC or get rid of it and drop AP cost to 1. Same story with the follow up abilities, especially deadly strikes.
Actually how about remove all of the Poison Strikes abilities and put a new ability in that triggers Assassin's Mark or tie that into Shiv and add something else entirely here or leave the old Poison Strikes there as legacy but no one will use, even with Assassin's Mark the cost makes it a poor choice compared to Harper MP, at least if it was tied to Shiv people would probably invest in the higher abilities.

To complement Assassin we also need more support of stealth gameplay in the future and to find out what is causing all the AI issues that gets messed up most updates.
*In particular see Mask of Deception. A quest that supports stealth play except that a Rogue can't do it stealthily thanks to wilderness lore being required. Simple fix to that is give Rogue Wilderness Lore at level one and move forwards. Quests like Mask but that Rogues can do sneakily are needed more in the future.

So while that is a lot of damage boosts I suggested there Assassin will still have relatively poor defences with low PRR so is something of a glass cannon but thanks to their low damage to start with their damage shouldn't be getting that high in the end anyway and actual numbers can be changed to balance it but the point is they need a big damage boost. Mech is going to see a big damage boost with their pass and they are already ahead of assassins who should be the top damage dealer rogues but at the cost of survivability. So I see nothing wrong with a huge damage boost to Assassins, they might even get a little more damage than Mechs.

Also on a Quality of Life note for Assassins; remove the faster sneaking from Stealthy and give 15% faster per core for 90% all up, you are still slower but you can at least keep up and position better. Or at least make Stealthy give 25/50/75% or something.




This really also needs a Shadowdancer pass to be done NEXT update due to time constraints to finish the Assassin pass. Please!!!! :)

Any chance that Shadar-Kai can get Racial traits though? I mean really they are a bought feature supposedly aimed at newer players and they are unfinished. How is that going to make a new player think about DDO??? It is bad enough I have to put up with the Iconic nonsense just to play a Shadar-Kai without having no racial traits.

Sorry for the wall of text.

EDIT: Push Assassin back if you have to but make sure it is right, better late and right than early and wrong forevermore.

[Pehtis]

Assassins are supposed to be the masters of eliminating any enemy no matter what (outside of bosses and red names of course). Perhaps we should incorporate a stance toggle for the assassin. The stances should be Banishing, Disruption, Smite, Vorpal. You get to choose the stance you need to be in. Your assassinate DC is added to the enemy save requirements.

Level 18 Lethality core would be a good place for this.


Just another suggestion.



P.s. I like to mention again, add dodge to PRR/MRR only when evasion criteria is met (I.e. Light, robe, no armor). Assassins need the extra survivability when forced to fight multiple hard hitting epic trash. I do not want any heal buffs.

[Augon]

Wow, lots of great thoughts on Assassins. I apologize for not reading all 57 pages so what I say may have already been said but here are my thoughts.

The name of the tree is "Assassin" and the tree has a single enhancement that accomplishes this goal. An enhancement that effectively requires 3 different Skill checks based on two different Stats. Perhaps we could add a few more ways an assassin can assassinate.

First the skill checks. In order to successfully assassinate an enemy, the assassin must sneak up to the enemy, making a series of Hide and Move silent checks while doing so (based on Dex mod) and then make an assassinate attacke (based on INT mod) If an assassin focuses on INT, he cant sneak up well enough, if he focuses on DEX he cant pull of the DC of the Assassinate. If he tried to pull off both stats, he will either be too low in both or have to sacrifice something else like CON. And then the squishy becomes squishier.

Some folks have commented that a bard is a better assassin than an assassin. For a Bard to instakill all that has to happen is for the opponent to be incapacitated in some way. He can be knocked down, fascinated, etc. then the Bard need only make one DC check based on his primary skill. Why not allow assassinate be allowed to work under those conditions as well. If an opponent is incapacitated, assassinate can be used.

I've played assassin and I've play Swashbuckler, but I think the BEST instakiller is the Wizard. Finger of Death and Powerword Killl can be used at a distance - with no situational requirements -nothing but a DC stands in the way of FOD and nothing but a long cool down slows down PWK. and of course there is the mass instakill spell - Wail of the Banshee. that's three different instakills that wizards have. Assassin has one.

And in between using their instakills, Wizards and Bards can do other stuff while waiting on cool downs, assassins cannot. Because if they do anything else, they break stealth and then are nothing but a low HP fighter until the next fight.

Some ideas I have for assassin include:
1. Allow assassinate to work under more conditions than just stealth. An incapacitated character should be just as easy of a target as one that is not aware.
2. Speed up stealth movement for assassin even more - some great ideas from other players are already mentioned for doing that in this thread.
3. Have an enhancement, even if its a core at 18 or 20, that allows INT to be used for Move silent and Hide. This way one stat can be the main focus of a dedicated assassin and the skill checks can be dependable while allowing a decent DC for assassinate
4. I love the idea someone else posted of making an assassin master of vorpal etc. perhaps an enhancement that gave doubled the HP requirements (i.e instead of 1000hp or below it would be 2000 or below)
5. Allow fewer actions to break stealth mode - an enhancement that allows things like opening doors and flipping switches to not break stealth.
6. allow some kind of ranged assassinate, even if it is very short range like point blank shot range. perhaps if an assassin has point blank shot feat, he can assassinate at that range as well. it could even be a feat and enhancement requirement to make it a bit costly. not all assassins would want it but some builds would.

Thanks for your efforts! We appreciate it.

[brzytki]

We are behind on this thread and will be catching up in the next two days. Feedback won't be incorporated into the next Lamannia build but we plan to go through the thread and discuss internally before live.

Sev~

I'm disappointed because without any changes to assassin tree in another patch for Lama, it's more likely that there won't be any significant changes to go live at all. It'll probably be only tweaking numbers, that's what i fear.

[CThruTheEgo]

To be honest Sev, it feels like assassins are not getting much of an update. Yes, there are a few minor changes and tweaks, but nothing major like we've seen with every other revamp. That's disappointing. The bottom line is that assassins have the weakest defenses of any class, as well as the second worst self healing (only fighters are behind them), and still have considerably lower damage than the revamped classes. As I've said before, I don't want assassins turned into an easy button and their defenses and self healing are not what should be improved, but their dps definitely should be. Plenty of suggestions have been made about how to improve their dps. More sneak attack dice (a lot more), make sneak attack damage affected by 200% melee power, make sneak attack damage crittable, more instakills, reduce the cooldown of assassinate – any or some of these would bring them up to the offensive capability they should be at for the amount of defensive capability they lack. Improving their defensive and/or self healing would change their unique playstyle and that's a bad thing. But improving their dps would not change their playstyle. Assassins have always been a glass cannon kind of build, but they've lost the cannon and don't seem to be getting that back with this revamp.

You said previously that assassins were getting a lot of little dps boosts, like deadly strikes, and that those would add up. But altogether they are very costly and won't add up to be worth the investment. As others have mentioned in the Lamannia thread, melee power from harper will be the better investment. Venomed blades, bleed them out, and the poisons are all too weak to be worth the points. The poisons are inneffective and weakening strikes and deadly strikes are not worth the total cost to get them.

To put things into perspective: bards were granted the ability to effectively fulfill every capability in the game (dps, instakills, AoE dps, CC, damage mitigation, damage avoidance, tanking, self healing, group healing, party support) on a single build (see The Count of Monte Cristo in my sig for an example of such a build); paladins were granted top tier dps, defenses, and self healing, so much so that they don't need to to perform any other function; barbs were given self healing, that's right, self healing on the most non self sufficient class in the game. Assassins are being given some minor dps boosts which are not nearly enough and are too costly, a minor defensive boost in the form of more damage avoidance which was not needed in the first place, and 2 assassinate DCs which frees up only 8 AP, 8 ED points, or some combination of the two, neither of which is going to provide a great deal of improvement. I'm not sure why assassins are getting the shaft here. What is the reason for keeping them behind in every area? If it goes through like this, I have to wonder why you bothered to revamp assassins at all.

[dualscissors]

...

Plenty of suggestions have been made about how to improve their dps. More sneak attack dice (a lot more), make sneak attack damage affected by 200% melee power, make sneak attack damage crittable, more instakills, reduce the cooldown of assassinate – any or some of these would bring them up to the offensive capability they should be at for the amount of defensive capability they lack. Improving their defensive and/or self healing would change their unique playstyle and that's a bad thing. But improving their dps would not change their playstyle. Assassins have always been a glass cannon kind of build, but they've lost the cannon and don't seem to be getting that back with this revamp.

...

Venomed blades, bleed them out, and the poisons are all too weak to be worth the points. The poisons are inneffective and weakening strikes and deadly strikes are not worth the total cost to get them.



^This and this.

I've seen a number of comments that echo the notion that the limited survivability boost with Dodge and Bluff procs keeps the rogue in a rough spot in top EE content, but that is *okay if the damage for assassins gets appropriately pumped up*. If certain classes have amazing dps and defense and self healing and CC, it seems very reasonable that assassins at least get amazing dps.

[Saekee]

Let's also not forget how hard it can be to play a rogue in its lower levels. Until you get knife spec at level 12 it is very rough. I see pure rogues mostly avoiding the assassin tree at first and using acrobat staff speed and mechanic's thunderstone. (I am level 9 with my Twilight blade build and its worst moments were as a level 1 rogue in Korthos--died in my first two quests there lol.)

Everyone seems to love endgame balance but please consider those lower levels. Tempests at level 1 get an enhancement to fake TWF. SWF and THF work well from the getgo.

Can rogues get something to serve as a helper? Suggestions:
1) add Sap feat for free in core 3
2) add full offhand damage if using INT or DEX like it once was some time ago. Add this into first two cores
3) some kind of competence bonus to INT and Dex that would not stack with gear, maybe?

no idea what else--maybe some kind of non-stacking defensive or offensive buff.

[nokowi]

To be honest Sev, it feels like assassins are not getting much of an update. Yes, there are a few minor changes and tweaks, but nothing major like we've seen with every other revamp. That's disappointing. The bottom line is that assassins have the weakest defenses of any class, as well as the second worst self healing (only fighters are behind them), and still have considerably lower damage than the revamped classes. As I've said before, I don't want assassins turned into an easy button and their defenses and self healing are not what should be improved, but their dps definitely should be. Plenty of suggestions have been made about how to improve their dps. More sneak attack dice (a lot more), make sneak attack damage affected by 200% melee power, make sneak attack damage crittable, more instakills, reduce the cooldown of assassinate – any or some of these would bring them up to the offensive capability they should be at for the amount of defensive capability they lack. Improving their defensive and/or self healing would change their unique playstyle and that's a bad thing. But improving their dps would not change their playstyle. Assassins have always been a glass cannon kind of build, but they've lost the cannon and don't seem to be getting that back with this revamp.

You said previously that assassins were getting a lot of little dps boosts, like deadly strikes, and that those would add up. But altogether they are very costly and won't add up to be worth the investment. As others have mentioned in the Lamannia thread, melee power from harper will be the better investment. Venomed blades, bleed them out, and the poisons are all too weak to be worth the points. The poisons are inneffective and weakening strikes and deadly strikes are not worth the total cost to get them.

To put things into perspective: bards were granted the ability to effectively fulfill every capability in the game (dps, instakills, AoE dps, CC, damage mitigation, damage avoidance, tanking, self healing, group healing, party support) on a single build (see The Count of Monte Cristo in my sig for an example of such a build); paladins were granted top tier dps, defenses, and self healing, so much so that they don't need to to perform any other function; barbs were given self healing, that's right, self healing on the most non self sufficient class in the game. Assassins are being given some minor dps boosts which are not nearly enough and too costly, minor defensive boosts in the form of more dodge which was absolutely not needed, and 2 assassinate DCs which frees up only 8 AP, 8 ED points, or some combination of the two, neither of which is going to provide a great deal of improvement. I'm not sure why assassins are getting the shaft here. What is the reason for keeping them behind in every area? If it goes through like this, I have to wonder why you bothered to revamp assassins at all.

I can get behind all these ideas.

For optimal stealth play, players will come in and out of stealth for max efficiency. This style of play takes the most skill, because your choices have huge consequences and there are a huge number of play options. Right now, roughly 1/2 of kills come from assassinate and 1/2 from DPS. I would like to add that I feel it is important to preserve this ratio so that a very skilled play style can still exist.

If the assassinate timer is dropped to 12 seconds (this is needed), DPS should be boosted by about 20% as well. This gives each and every play style a 20% boost. DPS should come from additional sneak attack (preserving the same weaknesses with undead, constructs, etc), not melee power.

There are really easy ways to add dps. I suggest changing each sneak attack from Assassin Tree to 2d6 (costing 2 AP) and changing Shadowdancer to 2d6 Sneak attack core per rank.

A stealth assassin would receive 9d6 more SA. I think I have around 25d6 SA right now.

34 vs 25 is a 36% boost in SA damage. Roughly 1/2 of damage comes from SA (the rest is from base weap + effects) netting a 18% increase in overall damage.

These 2 changes (more SA dice + 12 sec timer) can give assassin the boost it needs without any major design changes, and without harming any existing play styles. These numbers show that 10d6 additional sneak attack is not the huge boost that dev's seem to think it is (it is only a ~20% bump in dps).

I would separately suggest that 1 SA die every rogue level as an alternate fix, but I see that enhancement changes are preferred over class changes right now.

[Saekee]

I can get behind all these ideas.

For optimal stealth play, players will come in and out of stealth for max efficiency. This style of play takes the most skill, because your choices have huge consequences and there are a huge number of play options. Right now, roughly 1/2 of kills come from assassinate and 1/2 from DPS. I would like to add that I feel it is important to preserve this ratio so that a very skilled play style can still exist.

If the assassinate timer is dropped to 12 seconds (this is needed), DPS should be boosted by about 20% as well. This gives each and every play style a 20% boost. DPS should come from additional sneak attack (preserving the same weaknesses with undead, constructs, etc), not melee power.

There are really easy ways to add dps. I suggest changing each sneak attack from Assassin Tree to 2d6 (costing 2 AP) and changing Shadowdancer to 2d6 Sneak attack core per rank.

A stealth assassin would receive 9d6 more SA. I think I have around 25d6 SA right now.

34 vs 25 is a 36% boost in SA damage. Roughly 1/2 of damage comes from SA (the rest is from base weap + effects) netting a 18% increase in overall damage.

These 2 changes (more SA dice + 12 sec timer) can give assassin the boost it needs without any major design changes, and without harming any existing play styles. These numbers show that 10d6 additional sneak attack is not the huge boost that dev's seem to think it is (it is only a ~20% bump in dps).

I would separately suggest that 1 SA die every rogue level as an alternate fix, but I see that enhancement changes are preferred over class changes right now.

Great point. I prefer the boost per rogue level like you recommend at the end since AP is always so stretched. Plus, mechanics and acrobats will also derive benefits and there are further rewards for rogue levels (ie going pure).

[CThruTheEgo]

DPS should come from additional sneak attack (preserving the same weaknesses with undead, constructs, etc), not melee power.

I should have specified this in my previous post. I agree the dps boost should be based on sneak attack damage. At this point, I don't care how they do it. There have been plenty of good suggestions about how it can be done. I'd be fine with just about any of them, so long as assassins get a significant dps boost by the time this goes live.

Sev, can we please get an update about what you all are thinking after catching up on this and the Lamannia threads? I'd be interested to know what further changes you all are still considering and/or working on. Thanks again.

[nokowi]

I will try to post a timed dps run on the DPS thread later today, so that dev's can see how far behind assassin will STILL be, even with a 20% boost. I will also link it here.

[General_Gronker]

Let's also not forget how hard it can be to play a rogue in its lower levels.

Only if by lower levels, you mean 1-3. After that, it's really not.

[nokowi]

Let's also not forget how hard it can be to play a rogue in its lower levels. Until you get knife spec at level 12 it is very rough. I see pure rogues mostly avoiding the assassin tree at first and using acrobat staff speed and mechanic's thunderstone. (I am level 9 with my Twilight blade build and its worst moments were as a level 1 rogue in Korthos--died in my first two quests there lol.)

Everyone seems to love endgame balance but please consider those lower levels. Tempests at level 1 get an enhancement to fake TWF. SWF and THF work well from the getgo.

Can rogues get something to serve as a helper? Suggestions:
1) add Sap feat for free in core 3
2) add full offhand damage if using INT or DEX like it once was some time ago. Add this into first two cores
3) some kind of competence bonus to INT and Dex that would not stack with gear, maybe?

no idea what else--maybe some kind of non-stacking defensive or offensive buff.

I recently ran all of korthos on elite (no gear, no guild buffs) on a first life rogue (solo with hire). I never died. I am unsure why our experiences are so different.

I have to disagree with your statements. Low levels are where players learn skills like not getting agro, equipping gear, who to attack, etc. Making things easier at low levels is not going to prepare players for the skills they need at higher levels. There are settings like hard/normal for less skilled/geared players.

EDIT: I think I actually recorded these runs. I haven't had the chance to edit them with advice for new players yet.

[Severlin]

Feedback in this thread isn't reflected in today's Lamannia build. We will be going through the thread and talking changes soon.

Sev~

[Severlin]

Only if by lower levels, you mean 1-3. After that, it's really not.




I recently ran all of korthos on elite (no gear, no guild buffs) on a first life rogue (solo with hire). I never died. I am unsure why our experiences are so different.

I have to disagree with your statements. Low levels are where players learn skills like not getting agro, equipping gear, who to attack, etc. Making things easier at low levels is not going to prepare players for the skills they need at higher levels. There are settings like hard/normal for less skilled/geared players.

EDIT: I think I actually recorded these runs. I haven't had the chance to edit them with advice for new players yet.


I agree with General Gronker and nokowi; I am really not seeing an issue with Assassin in the earlier heroic levels. My concern is more overall DPS later on.

Sev~

[UurlockYgmeov]

I recently ran all of korthos on elite (no gear, no guild buffs) on a first life rogue (solo with hire). I never died. I am unsure why our experiences are so different.

I have to disagree with your statements. Low levels are where players learn skills like not getting agro, equipping gear, who to attack, etc. Making things easier at low levels is not going to prepare players for the skills they need at higher levels. There are settings like hard/normal for less skilled/geared players.

EDIT: I think I actually recorded these runs. I haven't had the chance to edit them with advice for new players yet.

yep - low levels are there to train the players... in tactics and teamwork....

[Equatis]

I've not noticed anything posted here or in the other rogue tree threads yet. so I wanted to say Thank You to Severlin and the Dev staff for listening to those of us who play Rogues.

I don't know if it was there before this last iteration on Lammania, but thank you for allowing thieves tools to stack. I got some stored tools from my bank and was surprised this afternoon when they actual stacked with the tools in my inventory. I don't know how many will stack as I only had 250 in the bank, but that stacked 331 tools in one slot, so thank you very much for this, as it's a big help for inventory space starved Rogues/Arties/Bards.

[Full_Bleed]

Right now, roughly 1/2 of kills come from assassinate and 1/2 from DPS. I would like to add that I feel it is important to preserve this ratio so that a very skilled play style can still exist.

If the assassinate timer is dropped to 12 seconds (this is needed)
This is only true for top-tier, no-fail assassinate assassins. *They* might get half of their kills from assassinate (depends how they prioritize their fighting and what risks they are willing to take... which, of course, is greatly diminished by being no-fail.) And the 12 second timer will disproportionately assist them as well. If that's where the focus is going to be to cross the threshold of an effective revamp for assassins I think the revamp will be sorely misguided. Every no-fail assassin build I see on the forums is geared to the gills to make up for the things they give up in the trees (a lot of that "worthless stuff" you guys always talk about.)

With most of the EE's I run now I do not have an assassinate chance above 50%, so I rarely even attempt it (granted, we're almost always running under level because if we don't the barb, pally, and sorc aren't challenged and it's a joke.) That means that nearly 100% of my kills come from "aggro management" (i.e. making sure I don't get aggro--which is still a form of "stealth play"--and taking out the weakest sheep in the heard... aka "kill stealing".) The reward is that I still beat the barb, pally, and sorc in kills (which goes to show how useless that measurement is, because while an assassin that's not assassinating is a great kill-thief, he's not necessarily a great killer.)


As for the extra SA damage being lobbied for, it seems to me that it will just make us even better kill-stealers/finishers. Is that really what we're looking for? Are you guys losing kill-counts because you're not doing enough sneak damage?

I get that people want to level the DPS playing field a bit and it sounds good to use the conditional DPS from sneak attacks for a rogue... but I know that jacking up my kill counts isn't what I'm looking for in this revamp. Frankly, I think they've made a good number of sensible/convenience changes to the trees which I appreciate. But past those, what I'd like to see is the abilities that we do have (poisons, bleed, and assassinate) all be *more effective*.

[Bobby88888]

To be honest Sev, it feels like assassins are not getting much of an update. Yes, there are a few minor changes and tweaks, but nothing major like we've seen with every other revamp. That's disappointing. The bottom line is that assassins have the weakest defenses of any class, as well as the second worst self healing (only fighters are behind them), and still have considerably lower damage than the revamped classes. As I've said before, I don't want assassins turned into an easy button and their defenses and self healing are not what should be improved, but their dps definitely should be. Plenty of suggestions have been made about how to improve their dps. More sneak attack dice (a lot more), make sneak attack damage affected by 200% melee power, make sneak attack damage crittable, more instakills, reduce the cooldown of assassinate – any or some of these would bring them up to the offensive capability they should be at for the amount of defensive capability they lack. Improving their defensive and/or self healing would change their unique playstyle and that's a bad thing. But improving their dps would not change their playstyle. Assassins have always been a glass cannon kind of build, but they've lost the cannon and don't seem to be getting that back with this revamp.

You said previously that assassins were getting a lot of little dps boosts, like deadly strikes, and that those would add up. But altogether they are very costly and won't add up to be worth the investment. As others have mentioned in the Lamannia thread, melee power from harper will be the better investment. Venomed blades, bleed them out, and the poisons are all too weak to be worth the points. The poisons are inneffective and weakening strikes and deadly strikes are not worth the total cost to get them.

To put things into perspective: bards were granted the ability to effectively fulfill every capability in the game (dps, instakills, AoE dps, CC, damage mitigation, damage avoidance, tanking, self healing, group healing, party support) on a single build (see The Count of Monte Cristo in my sig for an example of such a build); paladins were granted top tier dps, defenses, and self healing, so much so that they don't need to to perform any other function; barbs were given self healing, that's right, self healing on the most non self sufficient class in the game. Assassins are being given some minor dps boosts which are not nearly enough and are too costly, a minor defensive boost in the form of more damage avoidance which was not needed in the first place, and 2 assassinate DCs which frees up only 8 AP, 8 ED points, or some combination of the two, neither of which is going to provide a great deal of improvement. I'm not sure why assassins are getting the shaft here. What is the reason for keeping them behind in every area? If it goes through like this, I have to wonder why you bothered to revamp assassins at all.

This

[Bobby88888]

I can get behind all these ideas.

For optimal stealth play, players will come in and out of stealth for max efficiency. This style of play takes the most skill, because your choices have huge consequences and there are a huge number of play options. Right now, roughly 1/2 of kills come from assassinate and 1/2 from DPS. I would like to add that I feel it is important to preserve this ratio so that a very skilled play style can still exist.

If the assassinate timer is dropped to 12 seconds (this is needed), DPS should be boosted by about 20% as well. This gives each and every play style a 20% boost. DPS should come from additional sneak attack (preserving the same weaknesses with undead, constructs, etc), not melee power.

There are really easy ways to add dps. I suggest changing each sneak attack from Assassin Tree to 2d6 (costing 2 AP) and changing Shadowdancer to 2d6 Sneak attack core per rank.

A stealth assassin would receive 9d6 more SA. I think I have around 25d6 SA right now.

34 vs 25 is a 36% boost in SA damage. Roughly 1/2 of damage comes from SA (the rest is from base weap + effects) netting a 18% increase in overall damage.

These 2 changes (more SA dice + 12 sec timer) can give assassin the boost it needs without any major design changes, and without harming any existing play styles. These numbers show that 10d6 additional sneak attack is not the huge boost that dev's seem to think it is (it is only a ~20% bump in dps).

I would separately suggest that 1 SA die every rogue level as an alternate fix, but I see that enhancement changes are preferred over class changes right now.

I agree with this though I think saying half damage comes form SA is a bit of an exaggeration. with 29d6 SA damage I find a little over 1/3 of my damage comes from SA when it should be at least half if not more.

While tying to Rogue levels sounds like a good idea it doesn't give Assassins much of a leg up to catch up to mechs and TAs unless it was a higher level or Tier 5 enhancement to make it 1/Rogue level. Sneak Attack Training and/or the cores however are a good spot to add more.

[Powerhungry]

I agree with General Gronker and nokowi; I am really not seeing an issue with Assassin in the earlier heroic levels. My concern is more overall DPS later on.

Sev~

'Later on' would indicate epic levels to me. (so a 20+ character)
Improve the capstone. Add another +1 crit multiplier and threat range (yes, this is in addition too and stacks with the bonuses from knife specialization).
Add +4 to assassinate.
This is not OP (IMO) and will be restricted to pure 20 rogues.
Allow 5% fort bypass per core enhancement (more crits and SA will land)
Assassinate should work on any target that Coup de Grace works on.
As one poster pointed out, currently an assassin needs to spread points into both DEX and INT to be effective. All of the defensive enhancements in the assassin tree are geared towards damage avoidance (which is DEX based), yet assassinate (the very definition of the class - requires INT). So you either gimp your survivability or your assassinate. Since the defensive enhancements are DEX based, make assassinate DEX based. Why is a bards CdG based on perform? What does having a high charisma have to do with killing someone in one hit? At least a DEX based assassinate can be logically argued. (Game Master - "You twist your arm into an almost unearthly shape and angle, but somehow manage to find the slightest opening near the neckline in the fallen paladin's full plate armor, killing him instantly.") - (While the bard looks on in amazement, playing his lute in the corner...)

[Slasheboy]

'Later on' would indicate epic levels to me. (so a 20+ character)
Improve the capstone. Add another +1 crit multiplier and threat range (yes, this is in addition too and stacks with the bonuses from knife specialization).
Add +4 to assassinate.
This is not OP (IMO) and will be restricted to pure 20 rogues.
Allow 5% fort bypass per core enhancement (more crits and SA will land)
Assassinate should work on any target that Coup de Grace works on.
As one poster pointed out, currently an assassin needs to spread points into both DEX and INT to be effective. All of the defensive enhancements in the assassin tree are geared towards damage avoidance (which is DEX based), yet assassinate (the very definition of the class - requires INT). So you either gimp your survivability or your assassinate. Since the defensive enhancements are DEX based, make assassinate DEX based. Why is a bards CdG based on perform? What does having a high charisma have to do with killing someone in one hit? At least a DEX based assassinate can be logically argued. (Game Master - "You twist your arm into an almost unearthly shape and angle, but somehow manage to find the slightest opening near the neckline in the fallen paladin's full plate armor, killing him instantly.") - (While the bard looks on in amazement, playing his lute in the corner...)

This. I would like this.

Having fort bybass (maybe sneak attack immunity bypass as well) in the cores would go great ways to help both mid level and epic level rogues to kill all those accursed undead which seem to resist everything we throw at them.

Freeing up builds to choose between dex and int (by making the first 2 cores multiselector as well as assasinate and the various abilities would free up any builds without causing much imbalance, since there aren't much ways to improve dex or int compared to str.

Another thing to consider is to move dex to ac to a higher modifer - 1.5 or 2.0 to ac. After the ac/prr pass, all the monk and other dex based light armor builds were completely hosed in terms of attaining usable AC, while heavy armor users were laughing all the way to the bank. I mean, we even have to deal with max dex bonus while getting a pittance in damage mitigation to show for it, and dex/ac wasn't easy to raise to begin with. Consider changing monk's wis to ac ratio while you're at it.

[Powerhungry]

This. I would like this.

Having fort bybass (maybe sneak attack immunity bypass as well) in the cores would go great ways to help both mid level and epic level rogues to kill all those accursed undead which seem to resist everything we throw at them.

Freeing up builds to choose between dex and int (by making the first 2 cores multiselector as well as assasinate and the various abilities would free up any builds without causing much imbalance, since there aren't much ways to improve dex or int compared to str.

Another thing to consider is to move dex to ac to a higher modifer - 1.5 or 2.0 to ac. After the ac/prr pass, all the monk and other dex based light armor builds were completely hosed in terms of attaining usable AC, while heavy armor users were laughing all the way to the bank. I mean, we even have to deal with max dex bonus while getting a pittance in damage mitigation to show for it, and dex/ac wasn't easy to raise to begin with. Consider changing monk's wis to ac ratio while you're at it.
Fort bypass does render the target vulnerable to SA damage. It also make undead vulnerable to SA.

[slarden]

This really needs to be addressed. Yes, a proper pure rogue will have both UMD and scroll mastery, but then what? Worked fine in the old L20 content (ToD, LoB, Hox), but the game has moved on. What rogue has the concentration skill check to use those heal scrolls while being beaten on? What the devs need to remember here is that "healers" do NOT exist anymore. So, run into epic cabal and hang out in a cloud of glitterdust with a wad of heal scrolls in hand until you drop dead of physical damage whilst the scattered remains of those heal scrolls are pounded to pulp by barefoot hobgoblins? But wait, I had Nimbleness...why...

You want to skip this, fine, but make the changes to the trickery and the dps so awesome that even the bards and pallies will feel motivated to heal the new rogues. Go glass cannon if you must, but don't forget the cannon part of things.

If Rogues had the equivalent of the "quicken" ability on scrolls - scroll healing would be effective. At end game scroll healing is something you do between fights and not during a fight.

[burningwind]

I agree with General Gronker and nokowi; I am really not seeing an issue with Assassin in the earlier heroic levels. My concern is more overall DPS later on.

Sev~

and the reason is very simple, but epic level does not affect these dc at all! other then equipment wise.

DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier just wouldn't do with epic enemy have dramatic rise in their ability and save.

maybe dc 10+ rogue level + (epic level X2) + int mod +equipment might do. also this should be done to all dc base ability in the enhancement tree, not just assassin dc.

[dualscissors]

This is only true for top-tier, no-fail assassinate assassins. *They* might get half of their kills from assassinate (depends how they prioritize their fighting and what risks they are willing to take... which, of course, is greatly diminished by being no-fail.) And the 12 second timer will disproportionately assist them as well. ...


Short of running a 28/32 point build or running significantly under level, there isn't a vast difference between a pure assassin that is "top tier" vs. one that is moderately developed with respect to DCs. The top tier assassin will have acquired a +11 Int item vs. having a +10 loot gen. Top tier assassins will have +3 Insightful Int vs. a more common +2 augment. Exceptional INT +1 might not be in a newer assassin's gear set. A top tier assassin may have a +4 Mythic Muffled Veneer but my observation is more have only scrounged up the +2. APs and ED points applied toward INT, Measure the Foe, and Stealthy are more or less the same for a seasoned assassin and a less developed toon.

Where a lot of attempts are tested and the data is recorded, I'm not seeing where the two assassin types span such a large gap as "no fail" to missing most of the time. Now if the lesser assassin isn't slotting a +8 Int item or a +10 Int item when they can and are coasting on sub-par gear so they don't have to bother swapping at the bank, then I could see the loss being more pronounced.

[General_Gronker]

Allow 5% fort bypass per core enhancement (more crits and SA will land)

No
No
NO
No more fortification bypass. That's not how fortification is supposed to work, **** it! No, the amount of Fort available to players and monsters needs to be reduced.

[Full_Bleed]

Short of running a 28/32 point build or running significantly under level, there isn't a vast difference between a pure assassin that is "top tier" vs. one that is moderately developed with respect to DCs. The top tier assassin will have acquired a +11 Int item vs. having a +10 loot gen. Top tier assassins will have +3 Insightful Int vs. a more common +2 augment. Exceptional INT +1 might not be in a newer assassin's gear set. A top tier assassin may have a +4 Mythic Muffled Veneer but my observation is more have only scrounged up the +2. APs and ED points applied toward INT, Measure the Foe, and Stealthy are more or less the same for a seasoned assassin and a less developed toon.

Where a lot of attempts are tested and the data is recorded, I'm not seeing where the two assassin types span such a large gap as "no fail" to missing most of the time. Now if the lesser assassin isn't slotting a +8 Int item or a +10 Int item when they can and are coasting on sub-par gear so they don't have to bother swapping at the bank, then I could see the loss being more pronounced.
There are completionist bonuses. Extra twists. MIN/MAX racial bonuses. Heck, assuming that everyone has all twists and maxed destinies isn't legit. Yugo pots that not everyone has. And gear allows you to dump more AP and DP into INT than a lesser geared individual who would be seriously gimp otherwise. You start adding that all up and some of the things you mentioned and it is significant. And, frankly, I am probably missing some things.

[BigErkyKid]

To be honest Sev, it feels like assassins are not getting much of an update. Yes, there are a few minor changes and tweaks, but nothing major like we've seen with every other revamp. That's disappointing. The bottom line is that assassins have the weakest defenses of any class, as well as the second worst self healing (only fighters are behind them), and still have considerably lower damage than the revamped classes. As I've said before, I don't want assassins turned into an easy button and their defenses and self healing are not what should be improved, but their dps definitely should be. Plenty of suggestions have been made about how to improve their dps. More sneak attack dice (a lot more), make sneak attack damage affected by 200% melee power, make sneak attack damage crittable, more instakills, reduce the cooldown of assassinate – any or some of these would bring them up to the offensive capability they should be at for the amount of defensive capability they lack. Improving their defensive and/or self healing would change their unique playstyle and that's a bad thing. But improving their dps would not change their playstyle. Assassins have always been a glass cannon kind of build, but they've lost the cannon and don't seem to be getting that back with this revamp.

You said previously that assassins were getting a lot of little dps boosts, like deadly strikes, and that those would add up. But altogether they are very costly and won't add up to be worth the investment. As others have mentioned in the Lamannia thread, melee power from harper will be the better investment. Venomed blades, bleed them out, and the poisons are all too weak to be worth the points. The poisons are inneffective and weakening strikes and deadly strikes are not worth the total cost to get them.

To put things into perspective: bards were granted the ability to effectively fulfill every capability in the game (dps, instakills, AoE dps, CC, damage mitigation, damage avoidance, tanking, self healing, group healing, party support) on a single build (see The Count of Monte Cristo in my sig for an example of such a build); paladins were granted top tier dps, defenses, and self healing, so much so that they don't need to to perform any other function; barbs were given self healing, that's right, self healing on the most non self sufficient class in the game. Assassins are being given some minor dps boosts which are not nearly enough and are too costly, a minor defensive boost in the form of more damage avoidance which was not needed in the first place, and 2 assassinate DCs which frees up only 8 AP, 8 ED points, or some combination of the two, neither of which is going to provide a great deal of improvement. I'm not sure why assassins are getting the shaft here. What is the reason for keeping them behind in every area? If it goes through like this, I have to wonder why you bothered to revamp assassins at all.

This is true for the TA changes too, it is a general feeling that the upgrade to rogues was weak. and not exciting.


I can get behind all these ideas.

For optimal stealth play, players will come in and out of stealth for max efficiency. This style of play takes the most skill, because your choices have huge consequences and there are a huge number of play options. Right now, roughly 1/2 of kills come from assassinate and 1/2 from DPS. I would like to add that I feel it is important to preserve this ratio so that a very skilled play style can still exist.

If the assassinate timer is dropped to 12 seconds (this is needed), DPS should be boosted by about 20% as well. This gives each and every play style a 20% boost. DPS should come from additional sneak attack (preserving the same weaknesses with undead, constructs, etc), not melee power.

There are really easy ways to add dps. I suggest changing each sneak attack from Assassin Tree to 2d6 (costing 2 AP) and changing Shadowdancer to 2d6 Sneak attack core per rank.

A stealth assassin would receive 9d6 more SA. I think I have around 25d6 SA right now.

34 vs 25 is a 36% boost in SA damage. Roughly 1/2 of damage comes from SA (the rest is from base weap + effects) netting a 18% increase in overall damage.

These 2 changes (more SA dice + 12 sec timer) can give assassin the boost it needs without any major design changes, and without harming any existing play styles. These numbers show that 10d6 additional sneak attack is not the huge boost that dev's seem to think it is (it is only a ~20% bump in dps).

I would separately suggest that 1 SA die every rogue level as an alternate fix, but I see that enhancement changes are preferred over class changes right now.


SA has not been upgraded in the longest time. If it was balanced a few years ago, it is obvious that it is not given the current non vanilla upgrades to crit profiles many classes got. My preferred solution would be to let SA crit. After all, it is meant to be sort of a crit (additional damage from striking an unsuspecting opponent in a weak spot).

The instakills are not that sweet anymore in a game were in 15 seconds some classes cleave a room to death. I would not feel that a 6 secs cool down (keeping current requirements) would be too much.

[HuneyMunster]

and the reason is very simple, but epic level does not affect these dc at all! other then equipment wise.

DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier just wouldn't do with epic enemy have dramatic rise in their ability and save.

maybe dc 10+ rogue level + (epic level X2) + int mod +equipment might do. also this should be done to all dc base ability in the enhancement tree, not just assassin dc.

dc 10+ rogue level + (epic level X2) + int mod +equipment might

Adding +16(20 at 30) would be too much from epic levels. Maybe epic level/2 would work for +4 at 28 and +5 at 30.

Another option would be to improve shadow dagger. Give it a 1d1/1d2/1d3or4 per rank neg levels and allow it to not break sneak so it can be used as an opener and increase the blind save to also add epic levels to the dc. This could also be applied to Shadow Lance from Shadowdancer with a neg levels per shadow charge to prevent it from being twisted by necro casters.

[CThruTheEgo]

There are completionist bonuses. Extra twists. MIN/MAX racial bonuses. Heck, assuming that everyone has all twists and maxed destinies isn't legit. Yugo pots that not everyone has. And gear allows you to dump more AP and DP into INT than a lesser geared individual who would be seriously gimp otherwise. You start adding that all up and some of the things you mentioned and it is significant. And, frankly, I am probably missing some things.

We've already had this discussion (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/456558-Rogue-Assassin-Changes?p=5564741&viewfull=1#post5564741) and you're exaggerating the issue, as can be seen from the linked post where I provided a breakdown of everything that is easily and reasonably obtainable with minimal effort. What I took from that discussion was that you want a DC based ability that you don't have to build for. You seem to be in the minority with that preference and, personally, I'm glad that's the case because I don't want everything to be an easy button. There is currently only one DC based ability that requires no effort to build for top tier effectiveness – coup de grace – and Sev described that ability as "overperforming," which means you probably shouldn't expect similar mechanics in the future and it's definitely not a standard to which other abilities should be held.

I'd be curious to know details (e.g. feats, level split, race, enhancements, destiny info, twists, etc.) about your assassin you mentioned above with a less than 50% chance to assassinate in EEs. What EEs are you talking about? What's your full gear layout? If that's the results you are getting, then you've probably got a lot of room for improvement. Discussions in a vacuum don't really amount to much to be honest. Contextual specifics can help illustrate the problem.

[Jetrule]

and the reason is very simple, but epic level does not affect these dc at all! other then equipment wise.

DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier just wouldn't do with epic enemy have dramatic rise in their ability and save.

maybe dc 10+ rogue level + (epic level X2) + int mod +equipment might do. also this should be done to all dc base ability in the enhancement tree, not just assassin dc.


I so agree that every dc ability in the tree should benefit from anything that boosts assassination dc. poisions and shadow dagger become viable options if we do this.

[redoubt]

Severlin,

You have 3 of the best known rogue advocates all saying this doesn't go far enough.


To be honest Sev,


Let's also not forget


I can get behind all these ideas.
There are really easy ways to add dps. I suggest changing each sneak attack from Assassin Tree to 2d6 (costing 2 AP) and changing Shadowdancer to 2d6 Sneak attack core per rank.


There are a plethora of ideas within this thread, some include:

1. improved SA
2. lethality allowing SA crits OR an assassinate check
3. letting the stacks of MtF, killer, and nimbleness expire one at a time.
4. nimbleness increasing MDB while active
...

[Full_Bleed]

We've already had this discussion (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/456558-Rogue-Assassin-Changes?p=5564741&viewfull=1#post5564741) and you're exaggerating the issue, as can be seen from the linked post where I provided a breakdown of everything that is easily and reasonably obtainable with minimal effort.
No, the problem is you've made some faulty assumptions that I do not find reflective of the game and I got tired of pointing them out.

I don't want to play semantic games with you on words like "minimal effort". Just because something can be achieved, doesn't mean it's how the game is played and that the sacrifices made make as much sense to others as it might make to you and your build. Especially to under-geared (or "normal geared" I should say) players.

When you have the myopic view of a character geared as the top forum builds in the game are, it's tough to have a reasonable discussion with them.

Especially when they say stuff like:


What I took from that discussion was that you want a DC based ability that you don't have to build for. You seem to be in the minority with that preference and, personally, I'm glad that's the case because I don't want everything to be an easy button.
Once someone starts throwing around those kinds of accusations and framing my arguments as such, the discussion is pretty much done for me. I've got better things to do with my time. But that's not going to stop me from raising some issues when the 5%'ers keep pushing for things that are largely going to benefit them.

For the millionth time: The assertion that no-fail assassination somehow turns the ASSSASSIN class into an *easy button* class is BS. You can't have it both ways. You can't say that it's easy to get no-fail and then turn around and act like once you get it, with "minimal effort", that the class is now an "easy button" class. That's bad logic. There are a lot of easy buttons in this game, but the conditional use of assassination with it's 15 second cooldown isn't one of them. And the notion that it should be as hard (or comparatively harder for the return, as I maintain) as other DC builds is also BS. The return from the DC investment puts it in another bowl of fruit (already had this argument, too).


I'd be curious to know details (e.g. feats, level split, race, enhancements, destiny info, twists, etc.) about your assassin you mentioned above with a less than 50% chance to assassinate in EEs. What EEs are you talking about? What's your full gear layout? If that's the results you are getting, then you've probably got a lot of room for improvement. Discussions in a vacuum don't really amount to much to be honest. Contextual specifics can help illustrate the problem.
Why, so you can tell me to dump enhancements that matter to me and my build that don't matter to yours (like shadow dagger)? It's going to be an opinion.

But I'll humor you for a minute though just to show what I believe is a "reasonable" playable INT:

Currently @ Level 24 Drow Pure Rogue

Base: 25
19 Start
6 Level Ups

Tome: +5

Feats & Enhancements: +8
+6 Enhancement Trees
+2 Capstone

Items & Effects: +15
+9 INT Helm
+3 Insightful INT (Epic Spy Glass)
+1 INT Exceptional Diamond
+2 Ship

Total INT: 53

Stealthy Twisted (of course).

Current Assassinate DC 57.

Latest place that assassinate wasn't reliable: EE GH

First, let me count the ways that I don't think I'm even representative of every rogue in the game. Not all will have the Epic Spyglass (some don't like the event, haven't played the event, didn't play it enough, don't know about it, or just have another trinket they're happy with for one reason or another). Not everyone is in a guild with the +2 INT (I see plenty of low level guilds and un-guilded players in the game). Not everyone goes out of their way to slot one of the dozens of +1 exceptional INT augments they've got laying around (I know, silly, huh?). Not everyone is Drow and can start with a 19 or 20 INT. Not everyone has a +5 tome.


And now is where you provide me with a bunch of obvious and unwanted advice without having any context of why I've made the decisions I've made. Give me a lesson in Min-Maxing. Or claim I don't know how to build a DC character (again, happily pimping that a Rogue is a DC character *just like* all other DC characters). It's where I argue about how AP for INT is "expensive" (i.e. 4 AP for 1 assassinate DC sucks) with a poor return unless you have gear to make up for things you're giving up... etc.


So what's the future look like? At level 28 I can count on +2 INT more from an item and +1 more INT from level-ups. + 1.5 DC. So, yeah, I know what my assassination looks like in all the most recent content and it's not pretty now. And it only gets worse as I level because the monster DC's grow much faster. The +2 Assassination added at cap and some AP savings that will allow me to dump more into my racial tree for some more INT are small consolation and will still see me well short of what's needed in the ToEE and Stormhorns... and beyond.


Then you move onto, "What, no destiny INT?" Yeah, because unlike most of you guys I don't have maxed destinies. I'm still running out of destiny almost *all of the time*. That's how the game is designed. Know what? A LOT of players are still looking to get all their fate points. Not all of us farmed ours out with Death Undone in past lives... some of us have been getting them a little closer to how the original developers intended (i.e. slooooowly, on multiple lives, through one-and-done play.) Crazy talk, I know.

And, honestly, when I start ETRing, and I focus on Primal for awhile (because I'd like Colors of the Queen, which I'm sure is wrong of me, too), I'll still be getting NOTHING for my assassinate DC from ED for probably the next couple years because it takes the entire ETR to refill the primal sphere. So I'm not going to count on more than Stealthy for a good long time from my EDs. And, to be honest, anytime I'm in an adventure where assassinate is useless... I *should* change that twist to something useful.


Oh, and don't forget to point out that we were running a level 26 adventure at level 24 with max scaling. Yeah. We *have* to do that. Otherwise the Barb, Pally, and Sorc just breeze through everything, scraping champions off their boot-heels like they just stepped in something. As mentioned many times before: Rogues aren't playing the game in a vacuum. We're playing *with* others. And (don't laugh), believe it or not, I'm the best geared and built character in my static group. Probably the most skilled player to boot (which is why I almost always win kill counts by a wide margin... and not because of assassination or my uber dps.) But, yet, I often have to forego my iconic class ability because we don't want to "easy button" the class with an ability that requires "minimal effort" to achieve. So be it. Captain Kill-Stealer reporting for duty!


And that's just the tip of the iceberg, but this ship's length is well past long-winded as it is. I wouldn't even be bringing any of this up if I didn't see all the ubers lobbying for a lower Assassination timer and SA dice, like those things will somehow "fix" the class.

In my experience:

*I* don't need more SA dice. I win kill counts just fine. Give me more and I'll just be an even more lop-sided finisher.

*I* also don't need a 12 second assassination timer. That is clearly a buff weighted to the no-fail crowd. Sorry to rain on the parade.


I'd take both, mind you, as I'm open to any buff they want to give my favorite class and know better than to look a gift horse in the mouth. It'll be a long time before they ever look at rogues again after this. But I just don't see those particular buffs as being the silver bullets some are portraying them to be.

I'll take an enhancement line of +1 assassinate DC's for 1 AP each over a shorter timer any day. Give Assassination 3 tiers, at 2 AP's each, to reduce the timer 2 seconds each. Since you guys don't need the assassinate DC's, you can spend the AP's on 4 seconds of reduction in your assassination attempt, while those of us without no-fail can just be happy with a better chance to land one every 15 seconds.

[Bobby88888]

No, the problem is you've made some faulty assumptions that I do not find reflective of the game and I got tired of pointing them out.
<Snipped sue to size>


You forgot to count MtF for 62 DC which is good enough to have a decent/high success rate for most EEs. MtF is your friend, always MtF.

I think most anyone playing an Int based Assassin would reasonably have ~52 Int or more.

By level 28 you are actually looking at +2 DC from int, more if you get an Epic litany and Intricate field optics or ins int aug, +4 DC from an item, at the very least 2 but Dark Diversion is easy to come by for +4-7 DC in a non Int ED. (also the new item has 2 more assassinate DC too) Also if you can get an EMG its got +2 DC at level 20 but That is harder to get than Mythic Muffled Veneer so not likely but very useful I would assume.
P.S. Your build seems perfectly fine to me.

As to using the non Int EDs for levelling you can still get a good DC there, speaking from experience I was reliably assassinating with around 62-64 DC in off EDs on my assassin for most content. I levelled every ED from 0 to cap on my Assassin (not farming death undone or anything else, good on you not doing that btw :) I hate how everyone just goes farms spies EN or whatever now, I mean it is no fun so why waste your time) while reliably assassinating with a similar DC.

Sure it won't be reliable in Stormhorns (or ToEE from what I've heard) but that is 2 quest packs in the game that have the highest saves and will require some build sacrifices to work and that is actually a good thing (I will probably have to review my build to get a few more DCs for them personally).

4 AP for 1 assassinate DC is expensive but you are also getting +1 to hit, damage and reflex saves and Int based skills for that 4 AP which puts each thing at 1 AP each so not too bad. I know you probably wouldn't invest into the other 3 if they were all options at 1 AP each but its not as bad as you made it out to be.

If you play for kill stealing ofc you will lead the kill count, but who cares about leading the kill count. The reason more SA dice etc is being asked for is to raise the power of the class so they are more useful at things other than kill stealing.
Yes the Assassinate timer being shorter benefits higher DCs more but it also means those with lower DCs can try again sooner.

If they added more Assassinate DC to the enhancement tree it would give those with the high DCs the most benefit too, they could either free up a heap of AP/ED points to move around or even go to one of the high DPS EDs whilst maintaining their DC which was the whole issue with adding Dex to assassinate DC, whilst those with lower DCs can drop more useful enhancements and damage to try get their DC up higher while using sub par gear or sub par X, ie something for nothing. Which only serves to widen the gap between those who have worked on it and those that choose not to make the sacrifices for it. That is why requests like this are being viewed as requests for easy buttons because that is the effect they will have for both the 'uber' group and the 'non uber' group.

[CThruTheEgo]

And the notion that it should be as hard (or comparatively harder for the return, as I maintain) as other DC builds is also BS. The return from the DC investment puts it in another bowl of fruit (already had this argument, too).

We did have that discussion, and while I pointed out the synergies involved in investing heavily into int, you did not respond to my request to elaborate on what is sacrificed by doing so, which leaves the impression that assassins are on equal ground with other DC based builds. So what exactly do you think an assassin is forced to give up by having to invest heavily into int, and how is that different than other DC based builds (excluding coup de grace, of course, because it's already been pointed out that it is an outlier)?


Currently @ Level 24 Drow Pure Rogue

Base: 25
19 Start
6 Level Ups

Tome: +5

Feats & Enhancements: +8
+6 Enhancement Trees
+2 Capstone

Items & Effects: +15
+9 INT Helm
+3 Insightful INT (Epic Spy Glass)
+1 INT Exceptional Diamond
+2 Ship

Total INT: 53

Stealthy Twisted (of course).

Current Assassinate DC 57.

Add 1 more int from level ups, 2 int from an int 11 item (2 of which are easily obtained from epic Necropolis), 2 assassinate DC from Epic Muffled Veneer (this is easy to obtain, no reason to expect that this should not be expected), and 5 DCs from measure the foe, and you're at a DC of 66 at endgame. That's not weak. Your assassinate will be useless only in EE Stormhorns. I'm not really seeing the problem here and this is why I say you are exaggerating. Throw in 3 DCs from 6 int in shadowdancer and you're at 69. Add another 2 from the new capstone once that goes live and you're at 71.


Latest place that assassinate wasn't reliable: EE GH

Yes, this is about where DCs start to ramp up. The lack of DC increases in mid epic levels is a problem that others have pointed out already, Nibel in particular if I remember correctly. The fact that assassinate DC throughout heroics, early epics, and endgame (if built for it, which should require building for imo) are sufficient means the problem is not with the DC, but the lack of increase in mid epic levels where mob DCs start to rise dramatically but gear and other bonuses do not.

We have a +2 DC item available at 20 (Epic Midnight Greetings) but I'm not advocating that as sufficient. The only other DC items available are at endgame. A better balance for gearing would be other +2 options available in early epics, +4 in mid epics, and +6 at endgame. This would help the performance plateau you are noticing in mid epics. The solution is not simply to add more DCs because they are already sufficient in all other levels. The solution is to spread out what is already available.


Not all will have the Epic Spyglass (some don't like the event, haven't played the event, didn't play it enough, don't know about it, or just have another trinket they're happy with for one reason or another). Not everyone is in a guild with the +2 INT (I see plenty of low level guilds and un-guilded players in the game).

Agreed, which is why I dropped the insight bonus altogether from my calculations that I linked in my previous post.


Not everyone goes out of their way to slot one of the dozens of +1 exceptional INT augments they've got laying around (I know, silly, huh?).

+1 exceptional stat augments are available from the epic trader in the Twelve for 20 tokens. This should be expected because it's really easy to get 20 epic tokens.


Not everyone is Drow and can start with a 19 or 20 INT.

Human is an option available to all and is only 3 int behind drow.


Not everyone has a +5 tome.

No, but +3 tomes are readily available and if you're goal is endgame, then obtaining a +3 tome for any DC stat on a DC based build should be expected by this point in the game's history. Yes, they really are that easy to come by. I see +3 tomes on the plat auction house for a few hundred thousand plat often enough. A first life, brand new player can come up with this if they put a little effort into it.

All of these things really are minimal effort. Do they require some effort? Yes. But not much, and if you intend to play at endgame, this is all a pretty small effort to be able to get there. Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you are saying that players who simply don't feel like making these kind of small efforts to improve their build, should still be able to get into endgame and be successful. That's why I drew the conclusion that you are looking for an easy button. But please, correct me if I'm wrong. Do you think this kind of minimal effort should not be required to perform well in the most difficult content?


And now is where you provide me with a bunch of obvious and unwanted advice without having any context of why I've made the decisions I've made. Give me a lesson in Min-Maxing. Or claim I don't know how to build a DC character

There's nothing wrong with your build. Your DC is fine and will continue to improve as you approach cap. That's why I'm not really understanding where you're coming from. You are hitting the doldrums of mid epic levels, but I've already addressed that problem and solution.

That's why I asked you for more details by the way. Your comments have shed light on where the problem specifically lies, and it's not with your build, or with assassinate. It's with the game and poor design in a number of ways (i.e. gear not meeting the new demands of more difficult content). The solution is not simply to add more DCs.


Then you move onto, "What, no destiny INT?" Yeah, because unlike most of you guys I don't have maxed destinies. I'm still running out of destiny almost *all of the time*. That's how the game is designed. Know what? A LOT of players are still looking to get all their fate points. Not all of us farmed ours out with Death Undone in past lives... some of us have been getting them a little closer to how the original developers intended (i.e. slooooowly, on multiple lives, through one-and-done play.) Crazy talk, I know.

What makes you think I have maxed destinies? My assassin has the least progress in destinies of all my characters. Heh, I even have several destinies still with 0 xp at all. What do I need max destinies for? I don't take any twists past tier 1, so I don't need fate points. And I play him only in shadowdancer because that is what he excels in, so it's simply what I enjoy most. I'm not into reincarnation either (heroic or epic for that matter), so I don't care to grind karma either.

But, like with the mid epic levels performance plateau, you are pointing to another problem. It does suck playing in off destinies, but that is true of most builds and has been a common complaint for a long time. I hate farming any quest for any reason. Running the same thing back to back, over and over, or even the same set of quests daily, makes me want to stab myself in the eye with a pencil just to help ease the boredom. I'm not saying I've never farmed anything, but I have to have a strong reason to put up with such a mind numbingly boring way to spend my time, and maxing destinies is definitely not a strong reason imo.

But again, the problem you are pointing to is a problem with the whole epic destiny and ETR system and has been a common complaint since it was introduced. The karma system was meant to minimize that problem to some degree, but it does not solve the problem entirely. This is a problem that nearly all builds face. It is not a problem with assassinate DC and simply adding more DCs is not the solution. Building/adjusting class based enhancements around a system which is inherently problematic is not a good solution period.

So here again, the problem lies not with your build or assassinate, but with a poorly implemented epic system.


Oh, and don't forget to point out that we were running a level 26 adventure at level 24 with max scaling. Yeah. We *have* to do that. Otherwise the Barb, Pally, and Sorc just breeze through everything, scraping champions off their boot-heels like they just stepped in something. As mentioned many times before: Rogues aren't playing the game in a vacuum. We're playing *with* others.

Yet another problem that does not lie with assassinate, but with other aspects of the game. Now that they turned bards, barbs, and paladins into uber-classes, they are now faced with the problem of balancing content both for those classes, and the others which were left light years behind them. The further revamps are intended to bring the other classes up to speed. At least that's what I thought they were intended for, but if assassin goes through as it currently is, I'm going to question whether that's actually the case.

This is the ongoing problem of game balance, something this game has never had as long as I've played it, and from what I've heard/read, didn't have it even before then. Adding more DCs is, again, not the solution to this problem.


I wouldn't even be bringing any of this up if I didn't see all the ubers lobbying for a lower Assassination timer and SA dice, like those things will somehow "fix" the class.

In my experience:

*I* don't need more SA dice. I win kill counts just fine. Give me more and I'll just be an even more lop-sided finisher.

*I* also don't need a 12 second assassination timer. That is clearly a buff weighted to the no-fail crowd. Sorry to rain on the parade.


I'd take both, mind you, as I'm open to any buff they want to give my favorite class and know better than to look a gift horse in the mouth. It'll be a long time before they ever look at rogues again after this. But I just don't see those particular buffs as being the silver bullets some are portraying them to be.

I'll take an enhancement line of +1 assassinate DC's for 1 AP each over a shorter timer any day. Give Assassination 3 tiers, at 2 AP's each, to reduce the timer 2 seconds each. Since you guys don't need the assassinate DC's, you can spend the AP's on 4 seconds of reduction in your assassination attempt, while those of us without no-fail can just be happy with a better chance to land one every 15 seconds.

I couldn't say it any better, so in response I'll just say, this:


Yes the Assassinate timer being shorter benefits higher DCs more but it also means those with lower DCs can try again sooner.

If they added more Assassinate DC to the enhancement tree it would give those with the high DCs the most benefit too, they could either free up a heap of AP/ED points to move around or even go to one of the high DPS EDs whilst maintaining their DC which was the whole issue with adding Dex to assassinate DC, whilst those with lower DCs can drop more useful enhancements and damage to try get their DC up higher while using sub par gear or sub par X, ie something for nothing. Which only serves to widen the gap between those who have worked on it and those that choose not to make the sacrifices for it. That is why requests like this are being viewed as requests for easy buttons because that is the effect they will have for both the 'uber' group and the 'non uber' group.

So the problems you seem to be having, Full_Bleed, are with assassinate DC gear not scaling appropriately with epic levels, a borked epic destiny and ETR system, and the impossibility of game balance in a game as complex as DDO. I think all of these actually are a problem, but adding more DCs is not the solution to any of them.

[Bobby88888]

So from the Character Generation screen when you choose your path to take as a Rogue:

1. The Dark Blade: These stealthy rouges do more damage when sneak attacking than anyone else and can eventually inflict their enemies with various debilitating poisons.

2. Master Mechanic: These crafty, intelligent rouges are masters at locating traps and disarming them, finding secret doors and lock picking, and can even repair constructs.

3. Thief Acrobat: These lively rouges are skilled combatants and are extremely difficult to pin down in battle. They are unequaled in their ability to avoid damage from enemies.


Since each one basically corresponds to the PrE of similar name (except The Dark Blade and Assassin have different names) it seems to me that these provide an excellent direction for their corresponding PrE. Except maybe Master Mechanic since the description there focuses mostly on utility which isn't such a big thing anymore since anyone can do everything.

But making Assassins do "More damage when sneak attacking than anyone else" and "inflict their enemies with debilitating poisons" and
Acrobats be "unequaled in their ability to avoid damage" and "skilled combatants" and
Mechanics the "masters at locating traps and disarming them"
Is a good way to go with some more for mechanic ofc.

Make these true for a well built rogue of appropriate type and this pass will be a success

[redoubt]

By level 28 you are actually looking at +2 DC from int, more if you get an Epic litany and Intricate field optics or ins int aug, +4 DC from an item, at the very least 2 but Dark Diversion is easy to come by for +4-7 DC in a non Int ED. (also the new item has 2 more assassinate DC too) Also if you can get an EMG its got +2 DC at level 20 but That is harder to get than Mythic Muffled Veneer so not likely but very useful I would assume.


On some of this gear:
Epic Litany and Dark Diversion seem like they should be easy to get, but they are not. Please bear with me. For those in raiding guilds, or who are friendly with a raiding guild, then these become easy. I run with an associated guild every week to do raids. We hit the Deathwyrm, Fire Peaks and MOD every weekend. Sometimes we do FOT as well. That said, I have a chance to get ONE piece of gear from each every 20 weeks. I also did a hard farm attack on MOD not long after it came out. Sometimes I would get in a group that did well and I would see 12 minute completions. Sometimes it was not so good. Once night it took 2 hours to get to our first completion. Another piece to this is that back when they were more fresh there were more pug groups for them. Much fewer today. All this to say that it is dangerous to assume that it is EASY simply because it might show up on a 20th list. If you don't have the right guild, getting to 20 completions can be difficult.

EMG is hard due to the rarity of the shard. Its pretty easy to get people to run BoB and TTT, but the drop rate is painful.

To a lessor extend the Intricate field optics have the same problem. Its not run often anymore and they are a pure luck drop situation. You might get lucky and buy the right one if you are well off in Astral Shards, so there is that option.

I still think someone wanting to be a high end assassin should put in the work and go for these items; we just need to remember some of them are getting harder to get and not easier due to fewer groups running the quests/raids.



Yes, this is about where DCs start to ramp up. The lack of DC increases in mid epic levels is a problem that others have pointed out already, Nibel in particular if I remember correctly. The fact that assassinate DC throughout heroics, early epics, and endgame (if built for it, which should require building for imo) are sufficient means the problem is not with the DC, but the lack of increase in mid epic levels where mob DCs start to rise dramatically but gear and other bonuses do not.

We have a +2 DC item available at 20 (Epic Midnight Greetings) but I'm not advocating that as sufficient. The only other DC items available are at endgame. A better balance for gearing would be other +2 options available in early epics, +4 in mid epics, and +6 at endgame. This would help the performance plateau you are noticing in mid epics. The solution is not simply to add more DCs because they are already sufficient in all other levels. The solution is to spread out what is already available.


Assassinate DC is pretty close I think. The proposed changes make it a little higher already.

I do like the idea of some sort of mid-epic bump. There are DC augments at 20 and 24 already. What about adding assassinate to that list?

[Bobby88888]

On some of this gear:
Epic Litany and Dark Diversion seem like they should be easy to get, but they are not. Please bear with me. For those in raiding guilds, or who are friendly with a raiding guild, then these become easy. I run with an associated guild every week to do raids. We hit the Deathwyrm, Fire Peaks and MOD every weekend. Sometimes we do FOT as well. That said, I have a chance to get ONE piece of gear from each every 20 weeks. I also did a hard farm attack on MOD not long after it came out. Sometimes I would get in a group that did well and I would see 12 minute completions. Sometimes it was not so good. Once night it took 2 hours to get to our first completion. Another piece to this is that back when they were more fresh there were more pug groups for them. Much fewer today. All this to say that it is dangerous to assume that it is EASY simply because it might show up on a 20th list. If you don't have the right guild, getting to 20 completions can be difficult.

EMG is hard due to the rarity of the shard. Its pretty easy to get people to run BoB and TTT, but the drop rate is painful.

To a lessor extend the Intricate field optics have the same problem. Its not run often anymore and they are a pure luck drop situation. You might get lucky and buy the right one if you are well off in Astral Shards, so there is that option.

I still think someone wanting to be a high end assassin should put in the work and go for these items; we just need to remember some of them are getting harder to get and not easier due to fewer groups running the quests/raids.



Assassinate DC is pretty close I think. The proposed changes make it a little higher already.

I do like the idea of some sort of mid-epic bump. There are DC augments at 20 and 24 already. What about adding assassinate to that list?

the base of +4 assassinate DC was on the really easy to obtain stuff and given all of the top stuff could actually hit +10, but I tried to denote that some of that was harder to obtain, whilst keeping it very brief. and EMG.... well lets say I found it much easier and quicker to get a Mythic Muffled Veneer than EMG considering I still don't have one but do have the other.......

A level 20 +1 Assassinate DC aug and a level 24 Assassinate DC +2 Aug would be a good idea but they would have to keep assassinate DC bonuses on items to +4 until the level cap raise in that case which I don't think they are planning on doing right now. The only problem with that is it really devalues EMG for anyone lucky enough to have it since you can replace its bonus in a less restrictive way but by level 24 that seems reasonable as long as it isn't devalued at level 20.

[HuneyMunster]

Assassinate DC is pretty close I think. The proposed changes make it a little higher already.

I do like the idea of some sort of mid-epic bump. There are DC augments at 20 and 24 already. What about adding assassinate to that list?

The augment color also should not be red as some people already need to use red for devotion aug for rejuv. Should most probably be yellow (same as caster).

[CThruTheEgo]

The augment color also should not be red as some people already need to use red for devotion aug for rejuv. Should most probably be yellow (same as caster).

Agreed.

[Saekee]

Only if by lower levels, you mean 1-3. After that, it's really not.
Yes--levels 1-3. For alternate stat toons lime dex for dmg or int for damage it can be a little, especially if they dumped STR in order to max the others


I recently ran all of korthos on elite (no gear, no guild buffs) on a first life rogue (solo with hire). I never died. I am unsure why our experiences are so different.

I have to disagree with your statements. Low levels are where players learn skills like not getting agro, equipping gear, who to attack, etc. Making things easier at low levels is not going to prepare players for the skills they need at higher levels. There are settings like hard/normal for less skilled/geared players.

EDIT: I think I actually recorded these runs. I haven't had the chance to edit them with advice for new players yet.
I was careless--ran into quests at level 1, no gear whatsoever and yes, no ship buffs, not even a hireling and acted incautious. The 'ding' sound was merited--was impatient to advance, stupid of me.

I think a first life dex or Int based rogue will still have a very rough time in those first few levels. Nokowi I agree with you et al that it is a good time to experience teamwork but my suggestions are meant as minor compensation for that early fresh-out-of-the-womb phase for new non-TR builds and new players (who will not know the quests).

[Saekee]

Severlin,

You have 3 of the best known rogue advocates. . .



thx redoubt but I can't place myself in the knowledge set of Cthru and Nokowi--my focus has been on stealth builds that use rogue as part of their skill set and not a pure assassin per se (shadow veil has spoiled me). My suggestions in this thread have been away from endgame and more like midgame and other lower level stuff to which I am acquainted.

[Full_Bleed]

So what exactly do you think an assassin is forced to give up by having to invest heavily into int
Not a good question. I've spent all of my AP wisely. Spending more on INT does not provide a worthy return for what I'd give up. I'd be a marginally better assassinator, and worse in a lot of other ways.

I'll try one more tact with you on this and then move on as your position will have been illustrated to be entrenched.

If there was an Assassin Focus Feat that only provided +1 DC, would anyone take it? My answer is "no". It would probably have to be more like +3 for anyone to take it because the return is not there. Yet, other DC builds almost always take their +1 DC focus Feats because the value of the return is significant. Likewise, the chance of an Assassin taking a stat feat is zero. And, granted, while it's unlikely for other DC builds/classes to "waste" a feat on a stat, it is more likely.


and how is that different than other DC based builds (excluding coup de grace, of course, because it's already been pointed out that it is an outlier)?
Asked and answered. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it wrong. Not going to rehash it. You say they get the same for their dollar as other DC builds and I say they don't. We are obviously weighing things *very* differently.


Add 1 more int from level ups, 2 int from an int 11 item (2 of which are easily obtained from epic Necropolis),
I accounted for this. And I will have to take your word on being handed the +11 item in the perfect slot as I enter the Necropolis, though I haven't run epic necro yet to confirm myself (hopefully, soon though).


2 assassinate DC from Epic Muffled Veneer (this is easy to obtain, no reason to expect that this should not be expected),
Should NOT be expected. We will one-and-done that adventure when we come to it (maybe I can convince the others to two-and-done it to give me a better chance, but it's not like they don't have things they want, too, and not like it will be any more guaranteed). If it drops, I'll have it. But I'm not counting on it and neither should you be counting on *everyone* else having it. I won't even get into how it's possible that not everyone has necro or how rogues, in particular, might HATE running that quest to begin with. If they (and you) want to count on people being able to get that bonus, it should drop on more things like Spell Focus drops on zillions of things for caster builds (not to mention having augments). Why the assassinate DC bonus is soooo much more rare is beyond me.

Example: We just ran EE Madstone last night. The Iron Beads and Axe of Adaxus dropped. Great for the Sorc (the axe has no value to us). We considered that a rousing success. We rarely see named gear very much. Last thing was a Jeweled Cloak for the cleric a couple weeks ago. Good for her! But, frankly, unlike some people on the forums, our experience doesn't lead us to expect to have any named gear. We get what we get playing the game.


and 5 DCs from measure the foe
Knew I'd leave something out and you guys would pounce. So, yes, of course I'm using MtF.


and you're at a DC of 66 at endgame. That's not weak. Your assassinate will be useless only in EE Stormhorns.
And ToEE and everything else that comes out after it.

Not going to apologize for wanting to be assassinate viable in those adventures. I still maintain that the ability isn't OP, game breaking, or an easy button. It's just an iconic part of the character. Maybe even the core point of the character. And I think it's obvious that if the devs want "normal" players to be able to use it in their later content something needs to change... and telling us that it's easily achievable with minimal effort, and "is in a good place" just isn't true.


I'm not really seeing the problem here and this is why I say you are exaggerating.
If I was exaggerating I wouldn't have a case and I'd be no-fail assassinating already. I'm not doing either.


Throw in 3 DCs from 6 int in shadowdancer and you're at 69.
Already explained why counting this isn't right.


Add another 2 from the new capstone once that goes live and you're at 71.
Accounted for this.


Yes, this is about where DCs start to ramp up. The lack of DC increases in mid epic levels is a problem that others have pointed out already, Nibel in particular if I remember correctly. The fact that assassinate DC throughout heroics, early epics, and endgame (if built for it, which should require building for imo) are sufficient means the problem is not with the DC, but the lack of increase in mid epic levels where mob DCs start to rise dramatically but gear and other bonuses do not.
Well, I already explained how many could have substantially lower INT than even I do and I find the attempts to minimize those facts weak. But I'll set that aside, and just acknowledge consensus on the issue at "mid epic levels". And, trust me, if it's an issue for "you" guys, it's a bigger issues for guys like me... and those "below" me (which I bet is more than you think).


We have a +2 DC item available at 20 (Epic Midnight Greetings) but I'm not advocating that as sufficient.
Good, because I'm not going to farm for it. ;)


+1 exceptional stat augments are available from the epic trader in the Twelve for 20 tokens. This should be expected because it's really easy to get 20 epic tokens.
And, yet, I bet many "normal" players have neither 20 epic tokens sitting in their bags or have picked up a +1 exceptional augment along the way. By the time they can use the +1 augment, they have to decide if farming for 20 epic tokens is *worth* it for .5 DC or if their time might be better spent elsewhere. I'm of the opinion that they may very reasonably have their sights elsewhere at that point. I'm level 24 and have only run like one adventure that drop fragments so far. Not to mention that the only timely way to get the tokens is to farm Cannith Challenges, which not everyone has, likes, or would think farming for would give them a better return than farming for other T3 cannith gear or something else in the game. My point being, is that it (like other stuff you guys take for granted) should *NOT* be expected. "Available and attainable", yes. "Expected and the best return for the time spent", probably not. If it's expected, they should put it on the GH vendors or at least on the MR vendors. Both would increase adoption if it's going to be "assumed" gear. But it seems pretty obvious to me that they don't want it to be as available given their treatment of it. Which is fine, because (to answer a question you later pose), there should be things in the game that require a little more effort to get. But, again, once you do that you can't assume that everyone has it. You need to adjust your "everyone has this DC and that INT" bar accordingly.


Human is an option available to all and is only 3 int behind drow.
Uneeded info. Yes, their are two INT optimal starting races. But the point still stands. Not everyone will be using those and it should also not be "expected" or considered part of the "easily attainable" thresholds.


No, but +3 tomes are readily available and if you're goal is endgame, then obtaining a +3 tome for any DC stat on a DC based build should be expected by this point in the game's history. Yes, they really are that easy to come by. I see +3 tomes on the plat auction house for a few hundred thousand plat often enough. A first life, brand new player can come up with this if they put a little effort into it.
Uneeded info. You know the point was that I don't *expect* people to have +5 tomes, so I don't expect everyone to have my INT. As for the +3 tomes, I agree, totally worth the AH purchase. I hope people are at least biting the bullet on that one... heck, if they are lucky and are sitting on the plat, I hope they look to snipe a 2.1 million 3-4 upgrade tome... they pop in now and again. But, unlike others, I won't assume that they'll get one to drop, have the plat, get the necessary first bid on one, or that all servers are the same (I have my doubts about Wayfinder, for example).


All of these things really are minimal effort. Do they require some effort? Yes. But not much, and if you intend to play at endgame, this is all a pretty small effort to be able to get there. Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you are saying that players who simply don't feel like making these kind of small efforts to improve their build, should still be able to get into endgame and be successful. That's why I drew the conclusion that you are looking for an easy button. But please, correct me if I'm wrong. Do you think this kind of minimal effort should not be required to perform well in the most difficult content?
Effort isn't the only consideration. If you can't see that I can't make it any more clear. I've indicated above where I think you're wrong. I've acknowledged what's doable. But, at the end of the day, that only gets to where I am... which isn't enough.


There's nothing wrong with your build. Your DC is fine and will continue to improve as you approach cap. That's why I'm not really understanding where you're coming from. You are hitting the doldrums of mid epic levels, but I've already addressed that problem and solution.
And we have differing ideas about the solution. Your solution is not my solution. You believe that assassination is the sacred cow of the class to be protected and nurtured and effective only with the highest level of investment (which, inevitably ends up being gear dependent and contrary to how I see many people playing the game). I find it to be no more sacred that QP is for a Monk. I believe assassinate should be a feather in the quiver and that it is unworthy of the weight, rarity, or sacrifices that have been attributed to attaining near no-fail (let alone, no-fail itself). You say I'm exaggerating and I say you're ignoring how the game is played by the so-called 95% because it's not convenient to where you want to see the class go without acknowledging that your baseline is *not* representative of the masses.


The solution is not simply to add more DCs.
And, yet, that would help solve "my problem" and the problem of a whole lot of other assassins with respect to having a viable assassination DC. Just look at the ToEE assassin thread. Small sample size, but not unexpected results. Didn't take a seer to KNOW that's what was going to happen. What doesn't work in Stormhorns is not likely to work in the Temple or anything moving forward.


What makes you think I have maxed destinies?
Because you (and others) are pretty comfortable assuming that all rogues will have more assassination help from Shadowdancer that a Stealth twist when most people without max destinies or who are ERing actually get to spend very little time in their preferred destiny. Heck some people even go so far as to mention twisting INT sometimes to help make up for it (which I also think is absurd).


But again, the problem you are pointing to is a problem with the whole epic destiny and ETR system and has been a common complaint since it was introduced. The karma system was meant to minimize that problem to some degree, but it does not solve the problem entirely. This is a problem that nearly all builds face. It is not a problem with assassinate DC and simply adding more DCs is not the solution. Building/adjusting class based enhancements around a system which is inherently problematic is not a good solution period.
Well, we're not here fixing ER or ED. That's above my pay grade and the scope of this thread. We're not even allowed to touch TWF. So I'm going to work with what's in front of me and not make assumptions about things that may or may not get fixed in the future. Just like I'm not going to assume I'm going to get certain gear or that everyone has all the stuff I have. But I'm also not going to sit back and let others set bars and state "facts" that don't reflect what I'm seeing in the game just because they are proliferate posters and well know players of a particular class. The devs need some alternate views from people who also know how to play the game but are coming to some very different conclusions.


Yet another problem that does not lie with assassinate, but with other aspects of the game. Now that they turned bards, barbs, and paladins into uber-classes, they are now faced with the problem of balancing content both for those classes, and the others which were left light years behind them. The further revamps are intended to bring the other classes up to speed. At least that's what I thought they were intended for, but if assassin goes through as it currently is, I'm going to question whether that's actually the case.
Me too. And, frankly, if I can get a 50% assassination success rate in EE ToEE and future content playing the way I play, along with the convenience adjustments they've made so far, I'll be happier than I am right now. You can still have your no-fail assassinate and be twice the assassin, I'm sure you've earned it. Heck, I even hope you get your extra SA dice and shorter assassination timer if that's what you think your assassin needs... for all I know, maybe you do in the circles you run.

At this point, I'm willing to pay reasonable AP's for my needs (not 4 APs for a single DC though)? You willing to pay AP's for yours?

[Shadow_Jumper]

But I'll humor you for a minute though just to show what I believe is a "reasonable" playable INT:

Currently @ Level 24 Drow Pure Rogue

Base: 25
19 Start
6 Level Ups

Tome: +5

Feats & Enhancements: +8
+6 Enhancement Trees
+2 Capstone

Items & Effects: +15
+9 INT Helm
+3 Insightful INT (Epic Spy Glass)
+1 INT Exceptional Diamond
+2 Ship

Total INT: 53

Stealthy Twisted (of course).

Current Assassinate DC 57.

Latest place that assassinate wasn't reliable: EE GH

First, let me count the ways that I don't think I'm even representative of every rogue in the game. Not all will have the Epic Spyglass (some don't like the event, haven't played the event, didn't play it enough, don't know about it, or just have another trinket they're happy with for one reason or another). Not everyone is in a guild with the +2 INT (I see plenty of low level guilds and un-guilded players in the game). Not everyone goes out of their way to slot one of the dozens of +1 exceptional INT augments they've got laying around (I know, silly, huh?). Not everyone is Drow and can start with a 19 or 20 INT. Not everyone has a +5 tome.




You can get +5 from measure the foe, another 1 DC from having a +11 int item. Another 2 DC from epic muffled veneer.

That's +8 DC right there, and you can still go farther.

1 DC from epic litany, +2 DC from a mythic muffled veneer, and 1 DC from yugo potions.

That's a 69 DC for you right there.

You mentioned not being on Shadowdancer ED, if not, then the 6 INT could get you another 3 DC, and since bards are everywhere now, another +1 from inspiration.

Now you are at 73 DC.

[brzytki]

After reading your post i've got the impression that you want to have near no-fail assassinate DC in highest lvl content while running in off-destiny AND not putting much effort into equipment. A few quotes below that give such a feeling.


Should NOT be expected. We will one-and-done that adventure when we come to it (maybe I can convince the others to two-and-done it to give me a better chance, but it's not like they don't have things they want, too, and not like it will be any more guaranteed). If it drops, I'll have it. But I'm not counting on it and neither should you be counting on *everyone* else having it. I won't even get into how it's possible that not everyone has necro or how rogues, in particular, might HATE running that quest to begin with. If they (and you) want to count on people being able to get that bonus, it should drop on more things like Spell Focus drops on zillions of things for caster builds (not to mention having augments). Why the assassinate DC bonus is soooo much more rare is beyond me.
While i too think that the assassinate DC bonus should be available on a few more items, i can easily tell you why SF is so "popular" on items: assassinate DC works for 1 ability from 1 PrE, while SF works on zillions of things for caster builds.


Not going to apologize for wanting to be assassinate viable in those adventures. I still maintain that the ability isn't OP, game breaking, or an easy button. It's just an iconic part of the character. Maybe even the core point of the character. And I think it's obvious that if the devs want "normal" players to be able to use it in their later content something needs to change... and telling us that it's easily achievable with minimal effort, and "is in a good place" just isn't true.
It's easily achievable with minimal effort even for new content. Just switch the setting from EE to EH. If you want to have near no-fail DC in EE new content, you should put considerably more effort trying to build up your DC. That's the same thing with DC casters.


If I was exaggerating I wouldn't have a case and I'd be no-fail assassinating already. I'm not doing either.
Let's face it, from your own breakdown we know that you'd get 65 DC (w/ MtF) at level 28. I'd say that's a really good DC considering the choice of running in off-destiny, lack of epic litany, +6 tome, mythic veneer/necklace, pots.


And we have differing ideas about the solution. Your solution is not my solution. You believe that assassination is the sacred cow of the class to be protected and nurtured and effective only with the highest level of investment (which, inevitably ends up being gear dependent and contrary to how I see many people playing the game). I find it to be no more sacred that QP is for a Monk. I believe assassinate should be a feather in the quiver and that it is unworthy of the weight, rarity, or sacrifices that have been attributed to attaining near no-fail (let alone, no-fail itself). You say I'm exaggerating and I say you're ignoring how the game is played by the so-called 95% because it's not convenient to where you want to see the class go without acknowledging that your baseline is *not* representative of the masses.
Aren't DC casters gear dependent as well? Or tactics melees? If you make near no-fail DC easily attainable without the need of DC gear, what are players suppose to run new quests for? If 1st life caster with no gear can have similar no-fail DC as fully decked-out one, where is the incentive to play, apart from challenge/fun? One of the biggest incentives is to improve your character.


And, yet, that would help solve "my problem" and the problem of a whole lot of other assassins with respect to having a viable assassination DC. Just look at the ToEE assassin thread. Small sample size, but not unexpected results. Didn't take a seer to KNOW that's what was going to happen. What doesn't work in Stormhorns is not likely to work in the Temple or anything moving forward.
Yes, because your problem is not really a problem. You are running in off-destiny, don't have the gear but feel entitled to have near no-fail DC in the newest EE content. With 65 DC (when you get epic veneer and +11 item) and +2 from improved capstone, you'll have 67 DC and i can guarantee you will have near no-fail DC in EH ToEE. After the recent updated to Lama, i went there on EE with my 74 DC and i regularly assassinated 2 mobs at once (humans, orcs, etc.), not no-fail but close. That means they significantly lowered the saves across the board. Now, if you want to have near no-fail DC in the EE Temple (which is lvl 32 quest, mind you), you need to put more effort into your DC, meaning some better gear from previous updates to the game.


Me too. And, frankly, if I can get a 50% assassination success rate in EE ToEE and future content playing the way I play, along with the convenience adjustments they've made so far, I'll be happier than I am right now. You can still have your no-fail assassinate and be twice the assassin, I'm sure you've earned it. Heck, I even hope you get your extra SA dice and shorter assassination timer if that's what you think your assassin needs... for all I know, maybe you do in the circles you run.
That's just being greedy.

I don't really know if it's supposed to be an insult or compliment. Had it been directed at me, i'd take it as a compliment because i run with people who want to improve their characters and run toughest quests in game. I want to have a feeling that the group is better with me than with another barb/bard/pally. As i said earlier, EE is not for everyone and you shouldn't feel as if you ought to be able to perform excellently there on characters with little effort to push their DCs up.

[Delacroix21]

I agree with General Gronker and nokowi; I am really not seeing an issue with Assassin in the earlier heroic levels. My concern is more overall DPS later on.

Sev~

It's not just assassins whose dps is lacking, but all rogues. A big part is sneak attack (the key feature of rogues) does not scale well in epic levels.


When you first added Melee power I tested a rogue on Lammania and I thought it (and the sneak attacks) performed well. Then Melee power was nerfed and I saw the reduction in both base damage and sneak attack made the rogue underperform.


Sev, perhaps we should increase the effect of Melee and ranged power on sneak attacks? Maybe go from 100% to 150%? (So 50 melee power would be considered 75 Melee power for the sneak attack damage only). Rogues main source of damage should be from sneak attack, and flanking and bypassing fort should be their top priority.

[CThruTheEgo]

It's not just assassins whose dps is lacking, but all rogues. A big part is sneak attack (the key feature of rogues) does not scale well in epic levels.


When you first added Melee power I tested a rogue on Lammania and I thought it (and the sneak attacks) performed well. Then Melee power was nerfed and I saw the reduction in both base damage and sneak attack made the rogue underperform.


Sev, perhaps we should increase the effect of Melee and ranged power on sneak attacks? Maybe go from 100% to 150%? (So 50 melee power would be considered 75 Melee power for the sneak attack damage only). Rogues main source of damage should be from sneak attack, and flanking and bypassing fort should be their top priority.

I would agree that this is really the simplest way to improve rogue dps. However, simply increasing the effect of melee power on sneak attack damage would effectively buff every other melee that uses any amount of sneak attack damage, even from items. To avoid this, it might be a good idea to include this as part of the cores, but put it in each tree so all types of rogues can benefit from it. This would also have the benefit that they could offer different amounts based on how much each tree's dps needs a boost. Maybe 150% for mechanics, 175% for acrobats, and 200% for assassins, for example. Putting it in the higher cores, maybe level 18, would prevent the problem of low hanging fruit. A splashed rogue would also not be as reliant on sneak attack damage for dps and therefore would not have as much need for such a buff. Just my thoughts on this.

[CThruTheEgo]

Not a good question.

It's a perfectly good question, especially since you have stated that assassins sacrifice a lot by investing in int but have yet to explicitly state what it is they are giving up that is not also given up by other DC based builds.


I've spent all of my AP wisely. Spending more on INT does not provide a worthy return for what I'd give up. I'd be a marginally better assassinator, and worse in a lot of other ways.

At no point have I suggested you spend more AP in int. In fact, you've spent quite a bit in int already, so I'm not sure what your point is here.


If there was an Assassin Focus Feat that only provided +1 DC, would anyone take it? My answer is "no". It would probably have to be more like +3 for anyone to take it because the return is not there. Yet, other DC builds almost always take their +1 DC focus Feats because the value of the return is significant. Likewise, the chance of an Assassin taking a stat feat is zero. And, granted, while it's unlikely for other DC builds/classes to "waste" a feat on a stat, it is more likely.

I see your point here, but I do not agree with it. I think your assumption that no one would take a +1 DC feat is wrong, as is your statement that they wouldn't take a stat feat. Both Mellkor and nokowi, the other two top int assassin builds, have taken int as an epic feat at some point in their existence. I make epic toughness a priority on my assassin, so I don't have room for it while also including improved sneak attack and overwhelming critical. But I do twist 1 int to get to an even number. Each of the top builds have made such an investment, so your assumption that no one would do such a thing is simply wrong. And if you're going to argue that no "normal" player is going to do so, I disagree as well. I'm sure not all would, but some, and probably more than you think.


I will have to take your word on being handed the +11 item in the perfect slot as I enter the Necropolis, though I haven't run epic necro yet to confirm myself (hopefully, soon though).

Every item (excluding the raid items) from the epic Necro quests can appear in the chain end reward. So you can run the whole chain on casual for a chance at the item you want. They are very quick, especially now that you can teleport directly to the quest entrance. So it does require farming, but this is the easiest kind of farming the game has ever had, especially for the quality of items found there.


Should NOT be expected. We will one-and-done that adventure when we come to it (maybe I can convince the others to two-and-done it to give me a better chance, but it's not like they don't have things they want, too, and not like it will be any more guaranteed). If it drops, I'll have it. But I'm not counting on it and neither should you be counting on *everyone* else having it.

And here you are just reinforcing my point that you are not interested or willing to put any effort into obtaining gear. In other words, you want a no fail DC without any effort whatsoever. The fact that you are running with a static group that does each quest one and done, means you are definitely not representative of 95% of the player base. In fact, I would guess that you are in a small minority.

The epic helm is obtained the same way the +11 int items are, most likely from the chain reward. So yeah, it is easy to get and anyone expecting to perform well in the most difficult content should be expected to put such minimal effort into obtaining gear. What you are asking for is no effort at all.


But, frankly, unlike some people on the forums, our experience doesn't lead us to expect to have any named gear. We get what we get playing the game.

I also don't think this kind of attitude is representative of the majority of players, especially not players interested in endgame content, which is the only place that requires one's build to be in top condition.


And ToEE and everything else that comes out after it.

DCs were lowered. Building for content that isn't here yet is pointless because no one has any idea what the requirements of that content will be, or that new gear won't be introduced to make up the difference.


If I was exaggerating I wouldn't have a case and I'd be no-fail assassinating already. I'm not doing either.

As mentioned, the reason you are not currently assassinating well is a problem with mid epic levels and the lack of gear available there. What you are exaggerating about is the fact that your DC won't be good enough at endgame. It will if you are willing to put the minimal effort into it. It will even work in all but about 7 quests without that effort. And I am of the opinion that the most difficult content should require you to put effort into your build, not just play and expect to win with whatever comes along.


And, yet, I bet many "normal" players have neither 20 epic tokens sitting in their bags or have picked up a +1 exceptional augment along the way. By the time they can use the +1 augment, they have to decide if farming for 20 epic tokens is *worth* it for .5 DC or if their time might be better spent elsewhere. I'm of the opinion that they may very reasonably have their sights elsewhere at that point. I'm level 24 and have only run like one adventure that drop fragments so far.

Anything in Eberron drops tokens and token fragments. It is simply your personal preference if you choose to avoid that content. But 20 tokens can be gotten in a week of just running quests with no farming whatsoever.


Not to mention that the only timely way to get the tokens is to farm Cannith Challenges, which not everyone has, likes, or would think farming for would give them a better return than farming for other T3 cannith gear or something else in the game.

This is incorrect. If you want to get the tokens in a few hours, yes this is the best way. You can also farm Devil's Assault. But I'm not suggesting anyone farm anything for tokens. You can just play Eberron quests for fun and get them along the way. That's right, I said the "F" word. Play for fun and you'll have plenty of tokens in no time.

You seem to have the view that all this stuff requires playing the game with a particular strategy in mind, mainly farming, and yet you are playing the game with a particular strategy - one and done in a static group in off EDs. I highly doubt that your strategy applies to everyone or even a majority. You are making playstyle choices that limit your character's potential. Any limitations of assassinate that you experience are not a problem inherent with the assassinate ability. It just doesn't mesh well with your preferred playstyle.


My point being, is that it (like other stuff you guys take for granted) should *NOT* be expected.

Stuff like this is not needed or expected if you intend to run less difficult content. But it absolutely should be expected for the most difficult content. I never got upset that I never reached the end of any Mario game because my Mario skills suck. I just accepted that it wasn't a goal within my reach. If high end content that requires an optimal build to perform well is out of your reach, whether it's because it doesn't fit your playstyle or the effort required just doesn't interest you, then just don't expect to play that content, or play one of the easy button builds (i.e. paladin, bard, or barb) for that content.


Uneeded info. Yes, their are two INT optimal starting races. But the point still stands. Not everyone will be using those and it should also not be "expected" or considered part of the "easily attainable" thresholds.

Look at other DC based builds. There are optimal races for them as well.


But, unlike others, I won't assume that they'll get one to drop, have the plat, get the necessary first bid on one, or that all servers are the same (I have my doubts about Wayfinder, for example).

Again, as I mentioned already, this kind of stuff should be expected if you're building for endgame. I am speaking of endgame only where this stuff should be required. It is already not required anywhere else.

And please tell me you are not suggesting we balance classes around the lack of people on Wayfinder. It seems to me that the main reason people go to Wayfinder is for the limitations found there.


And we have differing ideas about the solution. Your solution is not my solution. You believe that assassination is the sacred cow of the class to be protected and nurtured and effective only with the highest level of investment (which, inevitably ends up being gear dependent and contrary to how I see many people playing the game). I find it to be no more sacred that QP is for a Monk. I believe assassinate should be a feather in the quiver and that it is unworthy of the weight, rarity, or sacrifices that have been attributed to attaining near no-fail (let alone, no-fail itself). You say I'm exaggerating and I say you're ignoring how the game is played by the so-called 95% because it's not convenient to where you want to see the class go without acknowledging that your baseline is *not* representative of the masses.

All DC based abilities are gear dependent. That's just how it works. And you are definitely not representative of 95% of the player base. I'm not claiming that I am. I am simply stating my opinion of what I think should be required to perform well in the most difficult content. And I fully realize that high end content is not a priority for everyone. But it's also the only place where everything we are discussing actually matters.


And, yet, that would help solve "my problem" and the problem of a whole lot of other assassins with respect to having a viable assassination DC.

Solving problematic mechanics with other problematic mechanics is not a good solution. It might be a solution, but it's definitely not a good one.


Because you (and others) are pretty comfortable assuming that all rogues will have more assassination help from Shadowdancer that a Stealth twist when most people without max destinies or who are ERing actually get to spend very little time in their preferred destiny. Heck some people even go so far as to mention twisting INT sometimes to help make up for it (which I also think is absurd).

Playstyle preference again, not a problem with assassinate.

[redoubt]

the base of +4 assassinate DC was on the really easy to obtain stuff and given all of the top stuff could actually hit +10, but I tried to denote that some of that was harder to obtain, whilst keeping it very brief. and EMG.... well lets say I found it much easier and quicker to get a Mythic Muffled Veneer than EMG considering I still don't have one but do have the other.......

A level 20 +1 Assassinate DC aug and a level 24 Assassinate DC +2 Aug would be a good idea but they would have to keep assassinate DC bonuses on items to +4 until the level cap raise in that case which I don't think they are planning on doing right now. The only problem with that is it really devalues EMG for anyone lucky enough to have it since you can replace its bonus in a less restrictive way but by level 24 that seems reasonable as long as it isn't devalued at level 20.

The value of the EMG would not be negated by augments because they stack. EMG +2 & augment +1 = +3 total at level 20.

This is also why anytime I've brought them up it has also included the idea that it is to complement +4 items at level 28 INSTEAD of adding +6 items. Total DC boost from items + augments not exceeding 6.


The augment color also should not be red as some people already need to use red for devotion aug for rejuv. Should most probably be yellow (same as caster).


thx redoubt but I can't place myself in the knowledge set of Cthru and Nokowi--my focus has been on stealth builds that use rogue as part of their skill set and not a pure assassin per se (shadow veil has spoiled me). My suggestions in this thread have been away from endgame and more like midgame and other lower level stuff to which I am acquainted.

I've read much of your work in the stealth threads in the rogue forums and I value your work there as much as I do CThru or Nokowi. They like to talk builds, but I appreciate your thoughts on improving the stealth system.

[Bobby88888]

The value of the EMG would not be negated by augments because they stack. EMG +2 & augment +1 = +3 total at level 20.

This is also why anytime I've brought them up it has also included the idea that it is to complement +4 items at level 28 INSTEAD of adding +6 items. Total DC boost from items + augments not exceeding 6.





I've read much of your work in the stealth threads in the rogue forums and I value your work there as much as I do CThru or Nokowi. They like to talk builds, but I appreciate your thoughts on improving the stealth system.

Duh. My bad. That is also how I was thinking to implement them but I got distracted while posting and it got mixed up a bit. I have also suggested the same approach in one of the threads somewhere so I totally agree I just confused myself there :) thanks for catching that and pointing it out

[HuneyMunster]

While i too think that the assassinate DC bonus should be available on a few more items, i can easily tell you why SF is so "popular" on items: assassinate DC works for 1 ability from 1 PrE, while SF works on zillions of things for caster builds.



Allowing Combat Mastery items to also effect assassinate dc would help here and would make items easier to create as they will have use for more than 1 PrE. Making it the same bonus type so it don't stack with assassinate items as to not over-inflate the dc. If you take Consuming Darkness ring as an example, do you think anyone other than a rogue would want the ring as much if it was assassinate instead of combat mastery? I doubt it too much as seeker can be found on loot gen around the same amount and with something more useful to other classes.

I think Sev said he didn't want tactics to include assassinate, but is assassinate a tactical attack? I think it is as you have to make a tactical decision of who needs to be assassinated. Even if its not its called combat mastery and not tactical mastery.

[Artagon]

Allowing Combat Mastery items to also effect assassinate dc would help here and would make items easier to create as they will have use for more than 1 PrE. Making it the same bonus type so it don't stack with assassinate items as to not over-inflate the dc. If you take Consuming Darkness ring as an example, do you think anyone other than a rogue would want the ring as much if it was assassinate instead of combat mastery? I doubt it too much as seeker can be found on loot gen around the same amount and with something more useful to other classes.

I think Sev said he didn't want tactics to include assassinate, but is assassinate a tactical attack? I think it is as you have to make a tactical decision of who needs to be assassinated. Even if its not its called combat mastery and not tactical mastery.

I'd be behind this, or allowing necromancy focus gear to apply to assassinate (might need a rename), since it is a relatively common gear bonus compared to assassinate, and it would allow players to get a small bonus earlier on than combat mastery is available.

[brzytki]

Allowing Combat Mastery items to also effect assassinate dc would help here and would make items easier to create as they will have use for more than 1 PrE. Making it the same bonus type so it don't stack with assassinate items as to not over-inflate the dc.

If Combat Mastery was changed to affect assassinate DC it would be a huge buff. The highest +DC bonus from item you can get is +4 at lvl 27 on hard to get items. Now, look at Combat Mastery. You can get +5 at lvl 20 with practically no grind (Spare Hand for Challenges). That's why it's not a good idea.

The best way to go are yellow augments. Like others say, make a stacking +1 DC at lvl 20 and +1 every 4 lvls and it will be enough.

[Chaios]

If Combat Mastery was changed to affect assassinate DC...

Everytime I see that line that I think "well sure, and you could add one to the DC for Precision, another for Weapon Finesse if using a finesseable weapon..." And Then I realize the word is Mastery, not Expertise.

So much disappoint...

[nokowi]

Assassins in Shadowdancer do about 1/3 as much damage as top tier (paladin/druid melee/barb). Those of you beating pugs without assassinate are running against sub-par builds. The reason you don't see top builds is that good builds can solo anything in the game (or prefer to run with guildies for fun) and have no reason to run with us lowly pugs. Check out 'Cetus' for Pally build and 'Eth' for Barb builds that will make your assassin look silly.

I think the ease of this game for top builds has moved the game to such a fast pace that assassins are going to be left somewhat behind no matter what the dev's do. Assassins shine when mob HP or challenge are high relative to character DPS/ability. The bard/barb/pally passes make it clear that challenge has been completely removed for top builds. Assassin play style does not jive with the 2 seconds it takes to kill an entire group of EE mobs. DC Assassins will be sub-par unless challenge is brought back to the game.

Some here want Assassin to have top tier (or maybe just mid-tier) DPS. For starters, we would need about an extra 50d6 Sneak Attack to be on the same playing field, and an extra 100d6 Sneak Attack to actually compete on a single mob. I am not joking with these numbers. Applying crit multipliers to SA damage may be the only reasonable way for assassins to have even moderate DPS in today's game. 30d6 Sneak Attack with a x3 multiplier on crit puts the damage into the usable range. I would guess my (current) 500-600 damage crits would be around 1000 with crit multiplier added. I think this would still be far behind top builds, but at least it is the type of change that players expect given recent bard/barb/pally passes. I am not personally advocating for a DPS increase, but I am showing the kind of change it would take to even matter.

Lastly, while players have been shown how to get effective assassinate DC's for current content on a first life toon, the latest Lamannia implementation may make DC assassins (the only kind of end game assassin given their lack of dps) extinct as of ToEE. I went in with DC 79 (with abishai cookies & yugo pots) and gave up on assassinate. I expect we will need a major DC boost through ToEE gear (+10 DC items), or we will have all wasted our time on this thread. ToEE currently has large numbers of low HP mobs with high DC's, making assassinate all but useless, but ideal for the Cleave/Burst DPS builds that seem to be excreting (fools :)) gold these days...

No matter what Dev's do, I love playing my assassin as it exists now in current content. I have no desire to play the current top builds or to turn rogue into them. They lack any weakness or challenge. The only real fix for DC rogues is for challenge to return to the rest of the players, so that our signature ability can actually be useful.

[dualscissors]

Assassins in Shadowdancer do about 1/3 as much damage as top tier (paladin/druid melee/barb). Those of you beating pugs without assassinate are running against sub-par builds. The reason you don't see top builds is that good builds can solo anything in the game (or prefer to run with guildies for fun) and have no reason to run with us lowly pugs. Check out 'Cetus' for Pally build and 'Eth' for Barb builds that will make your assassin look silly.

I think the ease of this game for top builds has moved the game to such a fast pace that assassins are going to be left somewhat behind no matter what the dev's do. Assassins shine when mob HP or challenge are high relative to character DPS/ability. The bard/barb/pally passes make it clear that challenge has been completely removed for top builds. Assassin play style does not jive with the 2 seconds it takes to kill an entire group of EE mobs. DC Assassins will be sub-par unless challenge is brought back to the game.

Some here want Assassin to have top tier (or maybe just mid-tier) DPS. For starters, we would need about an extra 50d6 Sneak Attack to be on the same playing field, and an extra 100d6 Sneak Attack to actually compete on a single mob. I am not joking with these numbers. Applying crit multipliers to SA damage may be the only reasonable way for assassins to have even moderate DPS in today's game. 30d6 Sneak Attack with a x3 multiplier on crit puts the damage into the usable range. I would guess my (current) 500-600 damage crits would be around 1000 with crit multiplier added. I think this would still be far behind top builds, but at least it is the type of change that players expect given recent bard/barb/pally passes. I am not personally advocating for a DPS increase, but I am showing the kind of change it would take to even matter.



I didn't want to quote so much of your post for the sake of brevity but you hit the nail.... I would note that the difference might not be so great between a naked 20th level rogue vs. a 20th level pally/barbarian, but when Legendary Dreadnaught or Divine Crusader vs. Shadowdancer gets put into the equation, the DPS disrepancy becomes very noticeable. Of course, most toons are going to have Epic Destiny so I'm not makinig any grand revelation - only that Shadowdancer's relative weakness is a large factor.


You are correct in highlighting that this discrepancy happens most when mob HPs aren't super high. One-hitting a weaker mob with assassinate vs. a barbarian chopping down a weaker mob isn't a big time difference like it is with a 12k HP mob.

It must sound strange to say that 29d6 sneak attack dice on every hit is meh. One obvious thing to rogues is that sneak dice have a diminished effect in the epic game. A dozen sneak attack dice on heroic mobs is pretty mean. Once mobs get buffed in the epic game, however, with sneak dice not critting, they just don't carry anywhere near the same punch - even if your rogue has more than a couple dozen d6s.

[nokowi]

I didn't want to quote so much of your post for the sake of brevity but you hit the nail.... I would note that the difference might not be so great between a naked 20th level rogue vs. a 20th level pally/barbarian, but when Legendary Dreadnaught or Divine Crusader vs. Shadowdancer gets put into the equation, the DPS disrepancy becomes very noticeable. Of course, most toons are going to have Epic Destiny so I'm not makinig any grand revelation - only that Shadowdancer's relative weakness is a large factor.


You are correct in highlighting that this discrepancy happens most when mob HPs aren't super high. One-hitting a weaker mob with assassinate vs. a barbarian chopping down a weaker mob isn't a big time difference like it is with a 12k HP mob.

It must sound strange to say that 29d6 sneak attack dice on every hit is meh. One obvious thing to rogues is that sneak dice have a diminished effect in the epic game. A dozen sneak attack dice on heroic mobs is pretty mean. Once mobs get buffed in the epic game, however, with sneak dice not critting, they just don't carry anywhere near the same punch - even if your rogue has more than a couple dozen d6s.

I'm not sure if I made this clear but I feel the challenge level for assassin is appropriate in current content. Buffing them to FOTM status would make them less enjoyable for me to play. I realize there is a variety of opinions on this one. I find myself very useful in a under-powered pug on EE (cc traps, healing, taking out key foes, etc). I am simply along for the amusement of others when top DPS builds are present.

[Full_Bleed]

Every item (excluding the raid items) from the epic Necro quests can appear in the chain end reward. So you can run the whole chain on casual for a chance at the item you want. They are very quick, especially now that you can teleport directly to the quest entrance. So it does require farming, but this is the easiest kind of farming the game has ever had, especially for the quality of items found there.
Thanks for the tip. But if I'm going to spend time doing something it won't be running casual to farm for an item. I'll play the game as I normally would.


And here you are just reinforcing my point that you are not interested or willing to put any effort into obtaining gear.
The fact that you equate "effort" with doing something like running a chain on casual to farm for an item just shows how different we perceive the word "effort".


In other words, you want a no fail DC without any effort whatsoever.
If that's what you've gotten out of my posts then you really shouldn't have even bothered to respond to them.

Running content 2-4 levels UNDER most of the time, maintaining our Elite streak, and playing one-and-done because we don't want to give into a cheesy MMO farming mentality is the absolute FURTHEST THING from "lack of effort*. Completely absurd conclusion on your part.


The epic helm is obtained the same way the +11 int items are, most likely from the chain reward. So yeah, it is easy to get and anyone expecting to perform well in the most difficult content should be expected to put such minimal effort into obtaining gear. What you are asking for is no effort at all.
This is probably the 7th or 8th time you've tried to make this assertion. Pathetic.


I also don't think this kind of attitude is representative of the majority of players, especially not players interested in endgame content, which is the only place that requires one's build to be in top condition.
It's fairly well known that "End Game" in DDO is ERing or TRing. And when people have a character that wipes out EN & EH... and are "encouraged" to play 2-3 levels UNDER in EE to get a challenge... It's not unreasonable to see that holding back on assassination would seem quite arbitrary and pointless. It's not *stopping* me or anyone else, it just changes our role. Assassination isn't the key to success. Not being able to do it just sucks some of the fun out of the class, which I find to be utterly pointless.

I get it. You're cool with gear being the gateway for rogue assassination. I'm not. I think it's an arbitrary way to take a very conditional card out the rogue's deck and that other sacrifices should be able to be made to keep it in. If I had to spend AP's to get assassination-viable how does that affect those who are already gear-viable? They'd just get to spend those AP's on other things that I don't get. If lazy-no-effort assassins like me had to spend 9 AP's to get +9DC and super-duper-over-achieving assassins could spend them on other perks like 4 seconds off their assassination timer and 5 more SA dice, why wouldn't that be a fair trade off?


As mentioned, the reason you are not currently assassinating well is a problem with mid epic levels and the lack of gear available there. What you are exaggerating about is the fact that your DC won't be good enough at endgame. It will if you are willing to put the minimal effort into it. It will even work in all but about 7 quests without that effort. And I am of the opinion that the most difficult content should require you to put effort into your build, not just play and expect to win with whatever comes along.
And I'm of the opinion that sticking with that mentality only excludes assassination from content that other classes have no problem in. Sure, I can back off to a lower difficulty where I'll be assassination-viable and bored stiff. Or I can do as I am going to do and just run the EE *anyway*, still win, but just not be able to assassinate. So what, exactly, is the reason to stop me from doing it? How is the game better for it? You think I'm going to have some great incentive to farm as a result? That people will have more build choices? That I'm suddenly going to say, "It's totally worth running that adventure 10 times instead of 10 different adventures now!"

At any rate, I hope you enjoy the Rogue update.

IMO, 60+ pages of assassin discussion and talks and bickering hasn't served the class very well: Marginal increases in assassination, defense, and dps with absolutely nothing that they can "hang their hat on".

To be clear, I'll take the convenience improvements and common sense updates and be thankful because I can appreciate that they *are* improvements. At least we didn't lose anything and I don't see anything they'll have to nerf later. :)

But after seeing what Bard, Pallys, & Barbs got... and where things seem to be going... it's looking like rogues are going to be one of the worst "end-game" classes in the game.

[CThruTheEgo]

Thanks for the tip. But if I'm going to spend time doing something it won't be running casual to farm for an item. I'll play the game as I normally would.

Run it on EE if you prefer. The difficulty does not affect the chain end reward. I am merely pointing out the ease with which these items are obtainable.


The fact that you equate "effort" with doing something like running a chain on casual to farm for an item just shows how different we perceive the word "effort".


If that's what you've gotten out of my posts then you really shouldn't have even bothered to respond to them.

Running content 2-4 levels UNDER most of the time, maintaining our Elite streak, and playing one-and-done because we don't want to give into a cheesy MMO farming mentality is the absolute FURTHEST THING from "lack of effort*. Completely absurd conclusion on your part.

When I speak of effort, I am speaking of the effort involved in boosting assassinate DC, or optimizing a build. You running quests 2-4 levels under has absolutely nothing to do with that kind of effort. I'm sure it takes effort for you to run quests 2-4 levels under, but that kind of effort doesn't serve to improve your character in any way other than gaining experience. You have been quite clear that you're not interested in investing the kind of effort of which I speak. And that's fine, but recognize that it's your playstyle choice. In other words, it's a self imposed limitation you place on yourself regarding how much you are willing to invest in your build. There's nothing wrong with that. I just don't think the game should cater to such self imposed limitations. Not every game mechanic is going to mesh well with every playstyle, and that's OK. If you were playing any other DC based build (excluding swashbucklers), you would also find similar limitations in the build because of your preferred method of one and done questing in off EDs and no farming for items. All DC based builds are gear dependent, that's just how it is.


I get it. You're cool with gear being the gateway for rogue assassination. I'm not. I think it's an arbitrary way to take a very conditional card out the rogue's deck and that other sacrifices should be able to be made to keep it in. If I had to spend AP's to get assassination-viable how does that affect those who are already gear-viable? They'd just get to spend those AP's on other things that I don't get. If lazy-no-effort assassins like me had to spend 9 AP's to get +9DC and super-duper-over-achieving assassins could spend them on other perks like 4 seconds off their assassination timer and 5 more SA dice, why wouldn't that be a fair trade off?

The concern with this solution is that it would open up too many overpowered options for optimized builds, effectively turning assassins into something that most assassin fans don't seem to want.


And I'm of the opinion that sticking with that mentality only excludes assassination from content that other classes have no problem in. Sure, I can back off to a lower difficulty where I'll be assassination-viable and bored stiff. Or I can do as I am going to do and just run the EE *anyway*, still win, but just not be able to assassinate. So what, exactly, is the reason to stop me from doing it? How is the game better for it? You think I'm going to have some great incentive to farm as a result? That people will have more build choices? That I'm suddenly going to say, "It's totally worth running that adventure 10 times instead of 10 different adventures now!"

The difference between assassinate and other DC based builds in mid epic levels is primarily in the scaling of gear. Spell focus items progress throughout epics and there's also stacking augments as well as an epic feat. The solution is to spread out the bonuses currently available to assassinate so that it's not basically 0 from 20-27.


IMO, 60+ pages of assassin discussion and talks and bickering hasn't served the class very well: Marginal increases in assassination, defense, and dps with absolutely nothing that they can "hang their hat on".

Agreed. I'm hopeful that further improvements will be made before the update goes live, but I've been accused of being overly optimistic before.

[redoubt]

Assassins in Shadowdancer do about 1/3 as much damage as top tier (paladin/druid melee/barb). Those of you beating pugs without assassinate are running against sub-par builds. The reason you don't see top builds is that good builds can solo anything in the game (or prefer to run with guildies for fun) and have no reason to run with us lowly pugs. Check out 'Cetus' for Pally build and 'Eth' for Barb builds that will make your assassin look silly.

I think the ease of this game for top builds has moved the game to such a fast pace that assassins are going to be left somewhat behind no matter what the dev's do. Assassins shine when mob HP or challenge are high relative to character DPS/ability. The bard/barb/pally passes make it clear that challenge has been completely removed for top builds. Assassin play style does not jive with the 2 seconds it takes to kill an entire group of EE mobs. DC Assassins will be sub-par unless challenge is brought back to the game.

Some here want Assassin to have top tier (or maybe just mid-tier) DPS. For starters, we would need about an extra 50d6 Sneak Attack to be on the same playing field, and an extra 100d6 Sneak Attack to actually compete on a single mob. I am not joking with these numbers. Applying crit multipliers to SA damage may be the only reasonable way for assassins to have even moderate DPS in today's game. 30d6 Sneak Attack with a x3 multiplier on crit puts the damage into the usable range. I would guess my (current) 500-600 damage crits would be around 1000 with crit multiplier added. I think this would still be far behind top builds, but at least it is the type of change that players expect given recent bard/barb/pally passes. I am not personally advocating for a DPS increase, but I am showing the kind of change it would take to even matter.

Lastly, while players have been shown how to get effective assassinate DC's for current content on a first life toon, the latest Lamannia implementation may make DC assassins (the only kind of end game assassin given their lack of dps) extinct as of ToEE. I went in with DC 79 (with abishai cookies & yugo pots) and gave up on assassinate. I expect we will need a major DC boost through ToEE gear (+10 DC items), or we will have all wasted our time on this thread. ToEE currently has large numbers of low HP mobs with high DC's, making assassinate all but useless, but ideal for the Cleave/Burst DPS builds that seem to be excreting (fools :)) gold these days...

No matter what Dev's do, I love playing my assassin as it exists now in current content. I have no desire to play the current top builds or to turn rogue into them. They lack any weakness or challenge. The only real fix for DC rogues is for challenge to return to the rest of the players, so that our signature ability can actually be useful.

100d6 is a big number... ouch. But I don't disagree. With sub-standard defense (monk is better in robes than assassin in light) and 2nd to last healing (only fighter is worse off), I think rogues should have much more DPS. But everyone has DPS, so how to you make it more "rogue-like" or more "assassin-like"?

1. Lethality is one. On a vorpal, do an assassinate check.

2. At to Measure the Foe: When at 5 stacks, orange named monsters are vulnerable to assassinate and monsters with DW and DB are 50% vulnerable (i.e. if the assassinate succeeds, roll 1d2 to see if it bypasses DW and DB)

3. Further increase sneak speed. An assassin appears out of nowhere and kills and this disappears again. I don't want more invisibility, but faster sneaking is how the assassin gets in and out before people notice him/her. I have no trouble believing that an elite assassin could move undetected at least as fast as a heavy plat wearing melee fighter (and if that happens to be a barbarian in heavy plate, then so be it.) Put in sneak speed penalties for medium and heavy armor if you want, but cloth and light armor assassins should be FAST. "That snail is fast!" kinda fast!

Both of these stick with assassinate based improvements instead of just making another DPS monster.

Then you need to go after the Shadow Dancer tree sooner, rather than later. A few initial ideas:
1. Shadow Mastery: You now have evasion. If you have evasion, you now have improved evasion. If you have improved evasion, you get +3 to reflex saves and no longer auto-fail on a 1. In addition, ...

2. In tier 1, stealthy is good because of the increase to assassinate DC. (Is Acrobatics good? I'm not sure, but do people actively tumble to get bonuses from it while fighting? Maybe its similar to the twitch thing.)

3. Escape Notice. Assuming this is primarily a rogue ED, why do we really care if it is the hide skill versus the diplomacy skill? My assassin has so many skill points that all the social skills are maxed anyway and with items like the ring of deceit, if I want to diplo, I can anyway. I would say to make this the ability to enter sneak and invisible, shed ALL agro and gain 50% stacking sneak speed for 3 seconds. Cannot attack for 3 seconds, but can take other actions.

4. Lithe. Also increase Maximum Dodge by either 1/2/3 or 2/4/6.

5. Skill mastery. Make it +5 to int and dex skills. Anything less and its not worth a point in an ED, they are just too valuable to spend on +1 even to all skills, again, rogues have TONS of skill points.

6. As I read through it again, very little adds to damage in this tree. Consider upping the cores to 2d6 sneak each.

7. Executioner's strike needs to use the higher of either INT or DEX. Scale the damage with 300% melee power.

8. Shadow form: Strength damage is useless with the high regen rate in epics. This damage needs either a longer timer before it wears off or make it something else. i.e. you have a 5% chance to cause the target to become confused by its shadow, entering a helpless state for 2 seconds.

9. I've never felt Dark Imbuement was worth taking. I only use unholy in ONE quest that I can think of. Compare this to Zeal in Divine Crusader (which is free!) and it pales (badly) by comparison. Does anyone find it useful? I'm hesitant to say to scrap it because I've never used it, so I'd like to hear from people who have first.

10. Add more fort bypass somewhere. "You are a creature of shadow and like the shadows you slip between the armor of your opponent and hit their weak spots."

11. Tier 4 is sparse. Add something there. Maybe a stun. "Handle to the head. When flanking (or maybe when eligible for sneak attack), you have a 5% chance to hit your opponent in the back of the head with the handle of your weapon, creating a stunned state for 2 seconds."

I know there are lots more out there...

[Ayseifn]

If Combat Mastery was changed to affect assassinate DC it would be a huge buff. The highest +DC bonus from item you can get is +4 at lvl 27 on hard to get items. Now, look at Combat Mastery. You can get +5 at lvl 20 with practically no grind (Spare Hand for Challenges). That's why it's not a good idea.

The best way to go are yellow augments. Like others say, make a stacking +1 DC at lvl 20 and +1 every 4 lvls and it will be enough.

Combat Mastery is also the same bonus type as Know the Angles, so like +15 DC if you have 70 int.

[HuneyMunster]

100d6 is a big number... ouch. But I don't disagree. With sub-standard defense (monk is better in robes than assassin in light) and 2nd to last healing (only fighter is worse off), I think rogues should have much more DPS. But everyone has DPS, so how to you make it more "rogue-like" or more "assassin-like"?

1. Lethality is one. On a vorpal, do an assassinate check.

2. At to Measure the Foe: When at 5 stacks, orange named monsters are vulnerable to assassinate and monsters with DW and DB are 50% vulnerable (i.e. if the assassinate succeeds, roll 1d2 to see if it bypasses DW and DB)

3. Further increase sneak speed. An assassin appears out of nowhere and kills and this disappears again. I don't want more invisibility, but faster sneaking is how the assassin gets in and out before people notice him/her. I have no trouble believing that an elite assassin could move undetected at least as fast as a heavy plat wearing melee fighter (and if that happens to be a barbarian in heavy plate, then so be it.) Put in sneak speed penalties for medium and heavy armor if you want, but cloth and light armor assassins should be FAST. "That snail is fast!" kinda fast!

Both of these stick with assassinate based improvements instead of just making another DPS monster.

Then you need to go after the Shadow Dancer tree sooner, rather than later. A few initial ideas:
1. Shadow Mastery: You now have evasion. If you have evasion, you now have improved evasion. If you have improved evasion, you get +3 to reflex saves and no longer auto-fail on a 1. In addition, ...

2. In tier 1, stealthy is good because of the increase to assassinate DC. (Is Acrobatics good? I'm not sure, but do people actively tumble to get bonuses from it while fighting? Maybe its similar to the twitch thing.)

3. Escape Notice. Assuming this is primarily a rogue ED, why do we really care if it is the hide skill versus the diplomacy skill? My assassin has so many skill points that all the social skills are maxed anyway and with items like the ring of deceit, if I want to diplo, I can anyway. I would say to make this the ability to enter sneak and invisible, shed ALL agro and gain 50% stacking sneak speed for 3 seconds. Cannot attack for 3 seconds, but can take other actions.

4. Lithe. Also increase Maximum Dodge by either 1/2/3 or 2/4/6.

5. Skill mastery. Make it +5 to int and dex skills. Anything less and its not worth a point in an ED, they are just too valuable to spend on +1 even to all skills, again, rogues have TONS of skill points.

6. As I read through it again, very little adds to damage in this tree. Consider upping the cores to 2d6 sneak each.

7. Executioner's strike needs to use the higher of either INT or DEX. Scale the damage with 300% melee power.

8. Shadow form: Strength damage is useless with the high regen rate in epics. This damage needs either a longer timer before it wears off or make it something else. i.e. you have a 5% chance to cause the target to become confused by its shadow, entering a helpless state for 2 seconds.

9. I've never felt Dark Imbuement was worth taking. I only use unholy in ONE quest that I can think of. Compare this to Zeal in Divine Crusader (which is free!) and it pales (badly) by comparison. Does anyone find it useful? I'm hesitant to say to scrap it because I've never used it, so I'd like to hear from people who have first.

10. Add more fort bypass somewhere. "You are a creature of shadow and like the shadows you slip between the armor of your opponent and hit their weak spots."

11. Tier 4 is sparse. Add something there. Maybe a stun. "Handle to the head. When flanking (or maybe when eligible for sneak attack), you have a 5% chance to hit your opponent in the back of the head with the handle of your weapon, creating a stunned state for 2 seconds."

I know there are lots more out there...

How long ago was the survey that included Epic Destinies to determine which are strong and which are weak? Must have been a year or so now.

I know Shadowdancer was rated one of the worst. You do more sneak attack damage in LD while Blitzing due to MP than in Shadowdancer and as well as your overall damage your crits on 19-20 are double the size of those in SD.

Shadow Mastery could allow SA dmg to crit.

Shadow Training II movement speed could do with a shorter cd

Shadow walk could be replaced with shadow jaunt and also reduces the cd for Shadai kai

Improved Invisibility should provide Displacement when used instead of having to wait 10, 20 or 30sec before getting the effect. Other option is that it provides an additional 25 incorp when in Shadow Form followed by the displacement when it expires.

[CThruTheEgo]

It's been a few days. Have you all caught up on the threads and discussed the latest assassin feedback? Can we possibly get an update about your current thinking based on that feedback? What further changes are you all planning to implement or at least considering? How is the problem of assassins being near last in self healing, defenses, and dps (and the lack of utility of trapping to make up for such weaknesses) going to be handled? Thanks again for the discussion Sev.

[CThruTheEgo]

I think the ease of this game for top builds has moved the game to such a fast pace that assassins are going to be left somewhat behind no matter what the dev's do. Assassins shine when mob HP or challenge are high relative to character DPS/ability. The bard/barb/pally passes make it clear that challenge has been completely removed for top builds. Assassin play style does not jive with the 2 seconds it takes to kill an entire group of EE mobs. DC Assassins will be sub-par unless challenge is brought back to the game.

...snip...

No matter what Dev's do, I love playing my assassin as it exists now in current content. I have no desire to play the current top builds or to turn rogue into them. They lack any weakness or challenge. The only real fix for DC rogues is for challenge to return to the rest of the players, so that our signature ability can actually be useful.

Well said and I completely agree.


Lastly, while players have been shown how to get effective assassinate DC's for current content on a first life toon, the latest Lamannia implementation may make DC assassins (the only kind of end game assassin given their lack of dps) extinct as of ToEE. I went in with DC 79 (with abishai cookies & yugo pots) and gave up on assassinate. I expect we will need a major DC boost through ToEE gear (+10 DC items), or we will have all wasted our time on this thread. ToEE currently has large numbers of low HP mobs with high DC's, making assassinate all but useless, but ideal for the Cleave/Burst DPS builds that seem to be excreting (fools :)) gold these days...

Was this in the first Lamannia release, or later? They said they were going to reduce saves in there and I'm just wondering how much of a difference that made.

[brzytki]

Combat Mastery is also the same bonus type as Know the Angles, so like +15 DC if you have 70 int.
Right, totally forgot about it. It would be a tremendous boost, so definitely shouldn't happen.


Was this in the first Lamannia release, or later? They said they were going to reduce saves in there and I'm just wondering how much of a difference that made.

They did reduce the saves:

Temple Cultists are designed to be pretty weak on saving throws. On Epic Elite shouldn't have any saving throw over 50. Some of their saves are as low as 37 on Epic Elite. Unless you are getting Dungeon Alert, which does increase saving throws, or if they are getting buffed by some other enemies or something along those lines. (This is taking into account their natural bonuses from DEX, CON, and WIS, of course.)
All guards and cultists are intended to have Will saves below 40, on Epic Elite.
Confirmation from many other players that Cultists consistently fail DC 70+ checks for all three saving throw types would be useful. Or for other monsters, but the more specific the better. (Note that "archers" is sort of useful but still ambiguous.)
Nearly all non-boss, non-miniboss monsters have only one saving throw above 50 (on EE); that strong save might be in the 60s, so if you are attacking that save with a 70 DC wouldn't succeed a great deal. (But if you attack the other saves a 70 DC would be expected to succeed nearly all the time.)
Minibosses often have one save in the 40s, one in the 50s, and one in the 60s.


What's interesting though, is the info about monsters having an additional +6/4/2 to saves against magic depending on their HP (100% HP/>75%/>50%) on EE and similar bonus but smaller on EH.

About the assassin's DPS. Today before i ETR'd, i ran two DPS tests in Cabal on my fully decked out human assassin (64+ INT, KtA, haste/damage boost, 7 MP (Harper), 14% alacrity, OC, ISA, Tensers, twisted Sense Weakness, TF (vulnerability/fort reduction/MF)+Agony, 20%+ doublestrike (obviously not from Killer lol).
The first one was in SD, so (not counting +[W] attacks) 6d6 SA, 3% doublestrike, 24 MP cores, Shadow Mastery's 5% physical vulnerability from Shadowdancer added to my DPS score. I had nearly 2,450k DPS (2,448 to be exact but let's round it a little).
The second test was in LD, so (again, not counting any +[W] attacks cause i didn't have PA anyway) 18 MP cores, cooldown reduction, +1[W], +6 seeker, +5 damage (advancing blows), +1 crit multi on 19-20, 70 MP (blitz). I had nearly 3,4k DPS (3,375 to be exact) but i forgot to scroll Tensers, which means i was at BAB 19 as opposed to the previous test. That's 1k DPS difference between those two EDs and 2k DPS difference between my rogue in LD and top DPS barb/palies in LD. And we are still talking about single target and a non-helpless monster.

[CThruTheEgo]

They did reduce the saves:

What's interesting though, is the info about monsters having an additional +6/4/2 to saves against magic depending on their HP (100% HP/>75%/>50%) on EE and similar bonus but smaller on EH.

Thanks for the link. I've not kept up with all the relevant Lamannia threads.


About the assassin's DPS. Today before i ETR'd, i ran two DPS tests in Cabal on my fully decked out human assassin (64+ INT, KtA, haste/damage boost, 7 MP (Harper), 14% alacrity, OC, ISA, Tensers, twisted Sense Weakness, TF (vulnerability/fort reduction/MF)+Agony, 20%+ doublestrike (obviously not from Killer lol).
The first one was in SD, so (not counting +[W] attacks) 6d6 SA, 3% doublestrike, 24 MP cores, Shadow Mastery's 5% physical vulnerability from Shadowdancer added to my DPS score. I had nearly 2,450k DPS (2,448 to be exact but let's round it a little).
The second test was in LD, so (again, not counting any +[W] attacks cause i didn't have PA anyway) 18 MP cores, cooldown reduction, +1[W], +6 seeker, +5 damage (advancing blows), +1 crit multi on 19-20, 70 MP (blitz). I had nearly 3,4k DPS (3,375 to be exact) but i forgot to scroll Tensers, which means i was at BAB 19 as opposed to the previous test. That's 1k DPS difference between those two EDs and 2k DPS difference between my rogue in LD and top DPS barb/palies in LD. And we are still talking about single target and a non-helpless monster.

Great info. Let's not forget, however, that rogue's have additional out-of-combat utility like trapping and UMD to make up for that 2-3k dps difference. :D

Sarcasm aside, something needs to be done. Most seem to agree that improving self healing or defenses would alter the unique playstyle. I tend to agree with nokowi's assessment that the best solution is to make the game challenging again for top builds, but realistically the only way to do that is to scale back those builds, and that's just not going to happen. Increasing the challenge of content would just leave other builds that don't match the top builds that much further behind. So the only viable solution seems to be to increase assassin dps by a significant amount.

[redoubt]

So the only viable solution seems to be to increase assassin dps by a significant amount.

Its a two edged dagger... if we push up to actually good dps, then we get agro, which further shows our extreme lack of defense and healing. This, yes again, brings me around to more and faster ways to insta-kill. Dead mobs don't hit back.

How much dps would be added by doing things like allowing Lethality to trigger an assassinate check on a vorpal? If it is too much, gate it with a cool down timer. You don't get the super big numbers across the screen, but you become more effective.

[CThruTheEgo]

Its a two edged dagger... if we push up to actually good dps, then we get agro, which further shows our extreme lack of defense and healing. This, yes again, brings me around to more and faster ways to insta-kill. Dead mobs don't hit back.

How much dps would be added by doing things like allowing Lethality to trigger an assassinate check on a vorpal? If it is too much, gate it with a cool down timer. You don't get the super big numbers across the screen, but you become more effective.

I completely agree with this. A dps increase to assassins does not have to take the form of raw dps. The goal is to make them more effective at taking out targets to offset their lack of self healing, defenses, and "utility." More ways to instakill would certainly fit the theme as well.

[BigErkyKid]

Thanks for the link. I've not kept up with all the relevant Lamannia threads.



Great info. Let's not forget, however, that rogue's have additional out-of-combat utility like trapping and UMD to make up for that 2-3k dps difference. :D

Sarcasm aside, something needs to be done. Most seem to agree that improving self healing or defenses would alter the unique playstyle. I tend to agree with nokowi's assessment that the best solution is to make the game challenging again for top builds, but realistically the only way to do that is to scale back those builds, and that's just not going to happen. Increasing the challenge of content would just leave other builds that don't match the top builds that much further behind. So the only viable solution seems to be to increase assassin dps by a significant amount.

Oh well, I guess you missed the 8K record by a DC paladin in the Cabal test.

From the TA side of the street, we share your sorrow fellow assassins.

Unlikely we see any change if it is going live so soon.

[draven1]

Its a two edged dagger... if we push up to actually good dps, then we get agro, which further shows our extreme lack of defense and healing. This, yes again, brings me around to more and faster ways to insta-kill. Dead mobs don't hit back.

We can have more usage of aggro management tools like diplo, bluff, deception, blind, shadow dagger, sap for that situation.
Also, we can have more aggro reduction enhancement for more DPS. So, it's not a problem at all.



How much dps would be added by doing things like allowing Lethality to trigger an assassinate check on a vorpal? If it is too much, gate it with a cool down timer. You don't get the super big numbers across the screen, but you become more effective.
Don't forget you can't assassinate RED named. I prefer SA crit on Lethality to another assassinate chance on Lethality. It will give more DPS against red named, bosses. We can have another assassinate-like ability on 'Execute' or 'Executioner's strike'.

Instakill on normal swings have very long nerf history(Vorpal, Nightmare, Wounding & Puncturing weapons).
We don't need to add more.

[CThruTheEgo]

I prefer SA crit on Lethality to another assassinate chance on Lethality. It will give more DPS against red named, bosses. We can have another assassinate-like ability on 'Execute' or 'Executioner's strike'.

I'd be fine with this as well. The current proposed change to execute makes it just as worthless as it currently is on live imo. So that could definitely use some improvement and making it an actual instakill ability would thematically fit the name.

[nokowi]

Its a two edged dagger... if we push up to actually good dps, then we get agro, which further shows our extreme lack of defense and healing. This, yes again, brings me around to more and faster ways to insta-kill. Dead mobs don't hit back.

How much dps would be added by doing things like allowing Lethality to trigger an assassinate check on a vorpal? If it is too much, gate it with a cool down timer. You don't get the super big numbers across the screen, but you become more effective.

I would like dps to happen. You get too much agro, you get attacked, you might die (hello diplo!). This is where the choice of how much damage to deal becomes important. A rogue succeeds in D&D through stealth or in attacking foes already in combat. High dps rewards you for attacking enemies already engaged in combat. It gives more build choices, because threat reduction and better defense are build choices. It also requires the most player skill to make these decisions correctly. We used to have this.

To me, Lethality is a separate issue. I would take anything at this point.

[brzytki]

Lethality should definitely be improved. Vorpal or 100 damage if >1k hp as a 5th core is too out-dated. The idea is good but the really low HP limit and laughable not-scaling-with-MP damage just kills this ability. I'd change it so that each epic level increases both the HP limit (by another 1k) and damage (by another 100, MP-scalable). That way at cap we have a vorpal if HP <9k and 900 damage if HP>9k. I think it would be fine that way. It would both give some much needed DPS boost and preserve the "killer" factor of the PrE.

SA crits should definitely be implemented. But i don't think it should be put in the heroic enhancements as it would give too much power there. I think the best place for it is Shadowdancer: 5th or 6th core or as a passive in a NEW epic moment.


Oh well, I guess you missed the 8K record by a DC paladin in the Cabal test.

My God... link plz?

[nokowi]

Was this in the first Lamannia release, or later? They said they were going to reduce saves in there and I'm just wondering how much of a difference that made.

Oops. My bad.

I vowed never to return to ToEE but it looks like you are correct. DC 73 worked fine. DC's might even be too low, as I didn't establish a floor. Mob damage is way up (woot!). I should have recorded that solo video before the changes :)

[Severlin]

It's been a few days. Have you all caught up on the threads and discussed the latest assassin feedback? Can we possibly get an update about your current thinking based on that feedback? What further changes are you all planning to implement or at least considering? How is the problem of assassins being near last in self healing, defenses, and dps (and the lack of utility of trapping to make up for such weaknesses) going to be handled? Thanks again for the discussion Sev.

Right now we are going through the player feedback and DPS videos. We are seeing different results (Assassins are closer to the top builds) and we need more time to figure out why.

Our plan is to take the time to recreate the tests we are seeing and make changes based on those, but we will need a couple of weeks to do that. We have a patch planned in 2-3 weeks where we will be doing more changes to rogues.

For now we changed Assassinate to 12 seconds and boosted Melee Power by a total of 10 by boosted the 4th and 5th cores by 10 each.

Sev~

[brzytki]

So apparently, U25 goes live on 6th April and these are the assassin changes that will go live:

We want more time to see Rogues in action before we take big steps. Our internal tests show them performing well, so there is a disconnect between us and the players. Because of this we will do some small tweaks and then do a follow up pass in the next patch in 2-3 weeks.

Our current changes from Lamannia based on player feedback:
~ Assassin will get 10 Melee Power added to the cores; 5 at 12 and 5 at 18.
~ Assassinate will be reduced to a 12 second cooldown.

...

Assassins are really doing a lot of DPS in our internal tests, but we understand the players have concerns so we will bump them a little bit now and do a follow up pass.

Sev~

[HuneyMunster]

Right now we are going through the player feedback and DPS videos. We are seeing different results (Assassins are closer to the top builds) and we need more time to figure out why.

Our plan is to take the time to recreate the tests we are seeing and make changes based on those, but we will need a couple of weeks to do that. We have a patch planned in 2-3 weeks where we will be doing more changes to rogues.

For now we changed Assassinate to 12 seconds and boosted Melee Power by a total of 10 by boosted the 4th and 5th cores by 10 each.

Sev~

Would you be able to say if you are gonna be able to take a look at Shadowdancer in the near future? I think a dev (might have been yourself) mention that an arti destiny was being thought of. Also I am gonna presume another may be introduced along with warlock. Would it be possible to at the same time look at other under performing destinies?

[draven1]

Right now we are going through the player feedback and DPS videos. We are seeing different results (Assassins are closer to the top builds) and we need more time to figure out why.

Our plan is to take the time to recreate the tests we are seeing and make changes based on those, but we will need a couple of weeks to do that. We have a patch planned in 2-3 weeks where we will be doing more changes to rogues.

For now we changed Assassinate to 12 seconds and boosted Melee Power by a total of 10 by boosted the 4th and 5th cores by 10 each.

Sev~

For reference, Here's DPS chart from 2011. I tried to find another recent DPS chart, but I couldn't.
TWF pure rogue on 0% fort mob was literally THE TOP DPS in DDO by huge margin. Sadly, it's not now.
Because, SA aren't affected by crit. And shadowdancer is so bad for DPS now.
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/298001-Best-TWF-build-considering-DPS
http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac182/Vanshilar/DPS_Trash_20110123.gif

[FlaviusMaximus]

My apologies for asking a question I could probably find an answer to in this thread, but the thread is now 62 pages long and...my god...

Have any changes to Lethality (core 18 - the vorpal effect on a 20) been announced for this update?

[brzytki]

My apologies for asking a question I could probably find an answer to in this thread, but the thread is now 62 pages long and...my god...

Have any changes to Lethality (core 18 - the vorpal effect on a 20) been announced for this update?

The only changes we are getting (that are not on Lama) are +5 MP to 4th core, +5 MP to 5th core and a reduced assassinate cooldown to 12 sec.

[FlaviusMaximus]

The only changes we are getting (that are not on Lama) are +5 MP to 4th core, +5 MP to 5th core and a reduced assassinate cooldown to 12 sec.

TYVM. Shame Lethality isn't being adjusted, but I like the changes you mentioned.

Tried to + rep. Apparently I need to spread the love some more first.

[slarden]

Right now we are going through the player feedback and DPS videos. We are seeing different results (Assassins are closer to the top builds) and we need more time to figure out why.

Our plan is to take the time to recreate the tests we are seeing and make changes based on those, but we will need a couple of weeks to do that. We have a patch planned in 2-3 weeks where we will be doing more changes to rogues.

For now we changed Assassinate to 12 seconds and boosted Melee Power by a total of 10 by boosted the 4th and 5th cores by 10 each.

Sev~

Assassins are near the top DPS against bosses when sneak attack damage is getting through and they are alive. When you factor in a full dungeon there is a no way rogues are anywhere near the top of the heap as far as DPS is concerned. Rogues are squishy and have weak self-healing and DPS is really low when you are dead. Sometimes rogues have to exit combat temporarily to avoid dying. Rogues have no AOE attacks.

I like the 12 second assassinate cooldown and the MP boost - that makes sense.

I stopped watching most of the player videos demonstrating DPS when I realized most appeared to be rigged to demonstrate what the maker of the video wanted to prove. Just a slight tweaking of how mortal fear is abused makes a huge difference.

[slarden]

The only changes we are getting (that are not on Lama) are +5 MP to 4th core, +5 MP to 5th core and a reduced assassinate cooldown to 12 sec.

And many AP costs reduced and some things in the tree improved.

I prefer the approach they took vs. making assassin an easy-button. All they did was give it a slight buff which was nice.

[Full_Bleed]

All DC based builds are gear dependent, that's just how it is.
Again, false equivalency. And you acknowledge it later...


The difference between assassinate and other DC based builds in mid epic levels is primarily in the scaling of gear. Spell focus items progress throughout epics and there's also stacking augments as well as an epic feat. The solution is to spread out the bonuses currently available to assassinate so that it's not basically 0 from 20-27.
And without a commitment to provide equivalent gear--and proliferation of said gear--there is no equivalency. Since I do not see readily available focus, augment, or feat options on the horizon I am left to conclude that the assassin carries a more onerous burden to achieve success for a more narrowly focused and marginalized ability (that just happens to be their namesake).

A gimpy +6 assassinate dagger being touted as a kind of solution, for example, is only further illustration of the problem and a continuation of a pattern of indefensible exclusivity. Why must assassins have so few choices? And why must they be such *bad* choices?

It is just astounding to me that this is so readily accepted by the rogue community. The embrace of gear dependance with such a poor selection at their disposal is... baffling.


I'll shut up and go farm my veneer now.

[Bobby88888]

Right now we are going through the player feedback and DPS videos. We are seeing different results (Assassins are closer to the top builds) and we need more time to figure out why.

Our plan is to take the time to recreate the tests we are seeing and make changes based on those, but we will need a couple of weeks to do that. We have a patch planned in 2-3 weeks where we will be doing more changes to rogues.

For now we changed Assassinate to 12 seconds and boosted Melee Power by a total of 10 by boosted the 4th and 5th cores by 10 each.

Sev~

Thank you.
Reducing the CD gives assassinate at least a little edge over other melee insta kills, though still has nothing on a PM. Thanks :)
Core 5 is still really weak, while i appreciate you gave us something I would really rather not see more and more MP being thrown at things to try solve problems. Rouges damage should come from SA. On live right now probably around a third of my assassin's damage come from SA, on Lam it is even less. I would rather see it as about 2/3 from SA damage or at least around 1/2. Though for 2/3 you would need to rebalance things a lot there so not realistic. MP boosts normal damage mroe than SA damage simply because we do more normal damage than SA damage.

I really hope that you can refocus assassin damage at least to be mainly SA damage but still mediocre if your not getting SA damage off for any reason. IMO core 5 giving SA damage crits is a good way to do this since heroics are mostly fine but really any boost to SA damage is good. I would rather see you adding SA dice than MP everywhere in the Assassin tree though perhpas making SA scale more with MP (either innately to benefit all rogues or in say core 5) will at least mean all the MP bonuses wont reduce the proportion of damage that is SA damage even though it probably wont increase it.

At any rate I imagine there will be more discussion/feedback in a few weeks after you have looked into it more so I will wait until then to provide more feedback so we can at least see what we are looking at.

[Full_Bleed]

Sometimes rogues have to exit combat temporarily to avoid dying.
Sometimes? I am often the last man standing when things go south specifically because I am so well trained to tuck tail and run at a more appropriate point. It is a skill I think every good rogue needs to master sooner rather than later.

That said, I am not entirely against the notion. We are rogues after all.*

But, yes, when damage mitigation requires yielding the field it does seriously impact our output in a way that comparative dps tests can not accurately measure. So allowing our flame to burn brighter when we are present is justified.

If they want accurate DPS in the wild, lets get a "Total Damage Done" stat in the report card. Kills and controlled DPS tests only measure particulars, not the whole.


*Note: This is why I would never turn down a dodge buff. Every second counts when you are running for your life.

[Bobby88888]

<EDIT> because there was an error in my idea but I am redoing it the same without the error. This may require more work to implement than I initially thought due to the little error but it still seems like a good way to go to me.

What if DB was made to not effect assassinate (and the orange named innate DB effect) and either orange named mobs were given a save increase OR in coding assassinate to ignore DB, rather than outright ignore it make it so DB gives a save bonus against assassinate rather than immunity (say +6 as a completely random figure). The whole assassinate formula and DC increases via items, enhancements and EDs might need to be revised.

The idea here is that it becomes easier for those who can't or don't want to invest in the absolute best gear for assassinating to be able to assassinate certain things reliably while those that do invest will be able to get more mobs/orange nameds.
In newer content mobs have higher saves than older content mostly, so we have the moderately invested assassin (ie little effort put into gear) who can get reliable assassinates in older content and moderate success rate in newer content on trash mobs. While the heavily invested can easily get trash mobs on older content and has moderate success on orange nameds in older content with reliable assassinate on trash in newer content and moderate success on orange nameds in newer content.

The more you invest the more you get back but if you don't have the +6 tome, or the raid items/mythic veneer, or harper, or are in an off ED etc you can still use your class feature well but you can't get as much from it as the assassin who has invested in all of those.

ie. Those that don't invest will find trash mobs to have the challenging save threshold whilst those who do will find the orange named mobs have the challenging save threshold, whilst for newer content moving forwards the trash might have the challenging saves for the invested assassin and the orange nameds have a very challenging save threshold.
And now we have a tiered assassinate system so that those who can't get the top gear or don't want to can still actually use their defining class system effectively but those who have invested in it can use it to much more devastating effect.

***NOTE*** Make sure DW still blocks assassinate and that DB/orange named DB effect doesn't block it. Having DW block it keeps the tactics of picking targets more and is a good thing. (ie. Take out the priestess before she can cast mass DW to block your assassinate.) DW is a temporary, more powerful version of DB so its protective magic is stronger and can deflect the killing blow enough to save your life though you still suffer 'massive' damage (10d6 SA damage for failed assassinate if that isn't too much work to do though that is hardly massive, if too much work just no effect is perfectly fine.)

This seems like a cool, flavourful way to go with the assassin and also means you wouldn't have to give the assassin as much raw DPS since their assassinate ability has been increased, a new update to a class that isn't just inflating damage numbers and/or attack speed will be refreshing and a good new path to head down. Consider that if an Assassin could assassinate that orange named miniboss in the next room, maybe, just maybe, the group might wait in the one before while they take him out before the priestess next to it can cast mass DW on him. Unless ofcourse they are a zerger who could blitz cleave the room to death in under 3 seconds but that is the whole problem of just lumping on more DPS to everyone. Might add some tactics back to group play at least.



I would still like to see more SA damage added to assassin but or rebalance their damage so at least half or more of their damage is coming form SA damage rather than less than 1/3 of it coming from SA damage. Which is another problem with throwing MP at rouge to make it more in line with the current game, it just widens the gap between the % of damage coming from SA and the % that is other damage.

Coupled with the 12 second assassinate CD it will help make assassinate shine again as the best insta kill in game even though it has the most conditions to get to use it.

[Full_Bleed]

Also I forgot to mention this but I assume Assassinate is flagged as a magical effect since DB and DW stop it (makes no sense that but oh well), so...

If the Magic flag was removed and the DC formula/enhancements/items that boost it were all revised then...
It does not affect assassination. Assassination is a Death effect.


Assassinate is specifically not magical, having just looked it up to double check. It is a "death" ability, as you would expect, so things that specifically work vs. death also work against Assassinate.

Death Ward and Death Block don't particularly care if the source of the effect is magical or not, just whether or not Death is involved. It's possible there is some text which is misleading in this respect, but I don't think it's likely we're going to soon make Assassinate work on all creatures with wards against death, of which Death Ward is only one kind. (Bosses, for example, have a similar but different ward against death that functions the same way.)

[Bobby88888]

It does not affect assassination. Assassination is a Death effect.

Ok sorry I missed that particular quote but I saw all the others and used the DB/DW descriptions to draw the logical conclusion, perhaps DB/DW should have their descriptions updated to be less misleading, not that it really matters on that front it has been that way forever. Shame really since I think that would have been a really good option to take if that was the case, though it might still be able to work but you just have to specifically code assassinate to function correctly with each of the different 'wards' which does increase the work and adjust the DC accordingly

Thanks for pointing that quote out to me Full_Bleed. :)

[slarden]

And without a commitment to provide equivalent gear--and proliferation of said gear--there is no equivalency. Since I do not see readily available focus, augment, or feat options on the horizon I am left to conclude that the assassin carries a more onerous burden to achieve success for a more narrowly focused and marginalized ability (that just happens to be their namesake).

A gimpy +6 assassinate dagger being touted as a kind of solution, for example, is only further illustration of the problem and a continuation of a pattern of indefensible exclusivity. Why must assassins have so few choices? And why must they be such *bad* choices?

It is just astounding to me that this is so readily accepted by the rogue community. The embrace of gear dependance with such a poor selection at their disposal is... baffling.

I'll shut up and go farm my veneer now.

I am not a fan of balancing assassinate through gear. It's problematic to regear to get the latest and greatest "top tier" assassinate item and depending on where it is slotted it could lead to some really bad trade-offs. As it turns out the mythic muffled veneer was about the best slot for an assassinate item. Necklace isn't bad either, but I prefer helmet. It is problematic especially if it's on a useless weapon like the first version I saw on Lamannia.

If the devs are stuck balancing through itemization I wish they would make assassinate +x augments that are 2 less than the top tier assassinate item available in game (so currently +4 augment with U25) so we can choose between the top tier item or accepting a slightly lower DC for gear flexibility.

As far as DC goes the top assassinate DC available in the game is 84 which would involve illogical choices gimping an assassin. My assassinate is sitting at 76 on Lamannia with only 4 ints selected in the Shadowdancer tree and with no twists, no yugo pot buff, no store pot or other consumable buff, no great int feats and only the +4 assassinate from mythic muffled veneer rather than the new item. It is currently beating my main character palemaster which has the same issue of having to gimp to increase DC.

Palemasters have often had the same issue with needing all the past lifes, raid gear, top tomes, yugo pots and rare gear to get a workable Spell penetration and DC although both are at a really good place right now. When U14 came out spell penetration on EE was impossible without past lifes and when eGH came out DC casting became very marginalized. Although PMs get bonus feats they are still very feat-tight with the spell focus and spell penetration feats often needed although the spell penetration feats especially have not always been needed and are currently unnecessary.

[CThruTheEgo]

Again, false equivalency. And you acknowledge it later...


And without a commitment to provide equivalent gear--and proliferation of said gear--there is no equivalency. Since I do not see readily available focus, augment, or feat options on the horizon I am left to conclude that the assassin carries a more onerous burden to achieve success for a more narrowly focused and marginalized ability (that just happens to be their namesake).

A gimpy +6 assassinate dagger being touted as a kind of solution, for example, is only further illustration of the problem and a continuation of a pattern of indefensible exclusivity. Why must assassins have so few choices? And why must they be such *bad* choices?

It is just astounding to me that this is so readily accepted by the rogue community. The embrace of gear dependance with such a poor selection at their disposal is... baffling.


I'll shut up and go farm my veneer now.

Again, you are misunderstanding the situation. It is not only straight DC bonus gear upon which DC based builds are dependent. It is also the DC stat gear. For assassinate that means int. Just because asassinate DC gear is more limited than spell focus gear does not mean it is any less gear dependent. My point still stands. And you have expressed a preference not to farm for either upper tier int gear or DC bonus gear, so your build will be limited based on that choice, which would be true for any DC based build you played if you made the same choice not to farm for gear.

EDIT: Also, I don't recall seeing anyone say that the limited assassinate DC bonus gear selections were acceptable. In fact, I've seen many suggestions on how to improve and expand them.

[CThruTheEgo]

Right now we are going through the player feedback and DPS videos. We are seeing different results (Assassins are closer to the top builds) and we need more time to figure out why.

Our plan is to take the time to recreate the tests we are seeing and make changes based on those, but we will need a couple of weeks to do that. We have a patch planned in 2-3 weeks where we will be doing more changes to rogues.

For now we changed Assassinate to 12 seconds and boosted Melee Power by a total of 10 by boosted the 4th and 5th cores by 10 each.

Sev~

Thanks again for the response Sev. I haven't followed any of the dps tests, so I can't comment on those. Does anyone have a link to them?

I'm glad to hear about the reduced cooldown. More melee power would not have been my first choice as a way to boost assassin dps, but I understand it's also probably the easiest for you all to implement. I'll take what I can get. Thanks again Sev.

[Faltout]

Ok sorry I missed that particular quote but I saw all the others and used the DB/DW descriptions to draw the logical conclusion, perhaps DB/DW should have their descriptions updated to be less misleading, not that it really matters on that front it has been that way forever. Shame really since I think that would have been a really good option to take if that was the case, though it might still be able to work but you just have to specifically code assassinate to function correctly with each of the different 'wards' which does increase the work and adjust the DC accordingly

Thanks for pointing that quote out to me Full_Bleed. :)
DB and DW are not misleading. They clearly say "death spells and effects".

[Bobby88888]

DB and DW are not misleading. They clearly say "death spells and effects".

Deathblock wiki entry says "death spells and magical death effects" which is what I looked at. So either the wiki entry is wrong or you are wrong but it doesn't matter in the end either way.

[Chi_Ryu]

DB and DW are not misleading. They clearly say "death spells and effects".

Not quite true. On an item Deathblock reads as: "The wearer of this item is immune to all death spells and magical death effects."

I'm not personally a big fan of Deathblock preventing non-magical death effects (such as the vorpal strike from Kai-Teng Fairuza in Litany... I was shocked when he killed me with a vorpal effect one time I forgot to re-equip my Cloak of Night). Fortification should protect against those, IMO.

[Faltout]

Deathblock wiki entry says "death spells and magical death effects" which is what I looked at. So either the wiki entry is wrong or you are wrong but it doesn't matter in the end either way.

Not quite true. On an item Deathblock reads as: "The wearer of this item is immune to all death spells and magical death effects."

I'm not personally a big fan of Deathblock preventing non-magical death effects (such as the vorpal strike from Kai-Teng Fairuza in Litany... I was shocked when he killed me with a vorpal effect one time I forgot to re-equip my Cloak of Night). Fortification should protect against those, IMO.
Yup. You're right. Death ward protects from effects while deathblock only from magical death effects. And I'm all for changing deathblock to actually check for magic flag in death effects :)

[Erofen]

Some things I would still like to see in this pass.

1. Dex to Assassinate
Int based is literally the only option if u want to be able to assassinate in high level content. Period.
A way to increase diversity would be to, while allowing dex to assassinate, change the existing core to int/dex to hit and damage with kukris and daggers, and add insightful reflexes to the capstone.

2. Sneak Speed
Please consider boosting this. If a rogue tries to sneak they are so far behind the group it is not even funny.

3. Sneak Attack ability
Keeping away from having agro can be difficult if u do not have harper capstone with improved deception or a few specific weapons/pieces of gear. Please consider to add improved deception to either t5 rogue or capstone.

4. Level 18 Core
This is useless nowadays. Please consider allowing this to let sneak damage crit or some other special improved type of vorpal effect.

Thanks for holding off on the rogue pass until the kinks can be worked out Severlin. It is a pleasant change in development.

[Saekee]

I read in an announcement yesterday that they will allow rogues to use their Wisdom for assassinate in order to encourage cleric splashes.

[dualscissors]

I read in an announcement yesterday that they will allow rogues to use their Wisdom for assassinate in order to encourage cleric splashes.

It's hard to balance a dayjob spreading the good word and a moonlighting gig murdering people.

[Severlin]

Warning: I learned this morning that the Assassinate cooldown reduction was not changed in our live build and will remain 15 seconds with the next patch.

I apologize for my misinformation.

Sev~

[ToastyFred]

Warning: I learned this morning that the Assassinate cooldown reduction was not changed in our live build and will remain 15 seconds with the next patch.

I apologize for my misinformation.

Sev~

Did you mean "...until the next patch."?

[mudfud]

Warning: I learned this morning that the Assassinate cooldown reduction was not changed in our live build and will remain 15 seconds with the next patch.

I apologize for my misinformation.

Sev~

More April Fools Pranks. You all from Turbine on a roll today. Keep them coming!

[dualscissors]

The feat is a critical difference on a feat-starved build. Auto-granting it in the capstone completely eliminates the balance issue there.



Way old post...but I just realized the other day that the pen/paper game notes that those Rogue Special Abilities at 10, 13, 16, 19 can also be used for a general Feat.

[nokowi]

Where are these dps tests?

Does anyone on this thread put shadowdancer assassin as a top DPS build? I would take any player video showing top tier dps. Tier 3 TF without mortal fear is preferred if it is on a non-Red named.

[nokowi]

Assassins are near the top DPS against bosses when sneak attack damage is getting through and they are alive. When you factor in a full dungeon there is a no way rogues are anywhere near the top of the heap as far as DPS is concerned. Rogues are squishy and have weak self-healing and DPS is really low when you are dead. Sometimes rogues have to exit combat temporarily to avoid dying. Rogues have no AOE attacks.

I like the 12 second assassinate cooldown and the MP boost - that makes sense.

I stopped watching most of the player videos demonstrating DPS when I realized most appeared to be rigged to demonstrate what the maker of the video wanted to prove. Just a slight tweaking of how mortal fear is abused makes a huge difference.

Are you talking about an endgame rogue in Shadowdancer or some other destiny? Please qualify your statements.

Thanks,

Nokowi

[redoubt]

Just watched the lunchtime twich feed with Cordo, Sev and Varg. As always, communication is good, so thank you for putting out as much as you can.

1. Question: when you spoke about lethality you said it works off of a DC similar to, but lower than assassinate. Have you had time to go and look at what that function is and are you willing to share it with us?

2. A comment on Execute. You talked about having the option to use it more than once in a fight, specifically boss fights. I think it is going to be a rare fight where it is used more than once. Even on a high HP boss, once the boss below 30% (and most will aim for 25% because it is easier to see and to make sure it activates) many in the party will be deep into extra damage from things like Sense Weakness. That last 25% is going to go fast. When many of the boss/miniboss beat down tests are well under a minute total, I don't see a boss, in a group lasting that long. Even a boss like Auglorasa does not spend much time below 30% before killing blow chance triggers. Now, I don't mean that to imply that the enhancement is bad, but I question it being used more than once per monster. Could you elaborate on where you think it will be work more? (I'll slip into my asbestos now... ;) )

[redoubt]

Back on Lama testing again.

I had seen people using Gardak in Cabal for One as a DPS test. It looked amusing and I'd never done that sort of thing, so I went out on the live server with a vanguard paladin. Sneezed on the trash and killed Gardak in 22 seconds. 4,350 dps. Nothing amazing, but I was happy with that on a tank.

Now, I port that character over to lama, TR into a shadar-kai pure rogue. Gear up and head out. Assassinated stuff no problem on the way. Discovered that MTF is not giving me +10 max dodge. Shrined and went in. Assassinted one guy, next two killed me. (30ish dodge, displacement, 25% ghostly and 78 PRR didn't seem to be doing much.)

Heal up and head back out. This time I kept my shadow charges and zoned in. So I'm starting at a dodge of 28/28, which goes up to 33/33 with full stacks of Measure the Foe. I tried assassinating the first sentry 3 times and finally realized that the epic ward was protecting him. I was at a 70 DC, so he should not be saving that much. So I bluff pull him and his buddy comes too. I hit a few times and then run and cocoon. Hit a few times and cocoon. Kill one, then toe to toe with second. With deception I can stay alive, barely. I get rid of all the trash and heal up and buff up... wait... my 11 minute GH clickie has expired... on my pali it took less than a minute to clear the trash and kill Gardak. Anyway, I put displacement and haste back up, dip into sneak to make sure I get a full 10 seconds of MTF and start the fight. 30 seconds in I'm dead and Gardak is at 75% health.

My initial thoughts are that this confirms all counts of rogue healing and defense being very poor. 33 dodge, displacement, 25% incorp, 78 PRR is layering, its not as if I ignored defensive measures. My healing amp during testing was low at 20 (I could not figure out how to get the remnant cloak with heal amp on lama). Cocoon was not enough healing. I could trying backing out and scroll healing, but then I'm into kiting indefinitely (I've tried this before, it works in a group, but not solo, unless you break contact and let them lash back.) DPS was also poor. Even with two improved deception items (full upgraded agony / epic backstabber's gloves) the amount of time he had his back turned was not enough for either DPS or defense. In 33% longer time frame I did only 25% the damage of my Vanguard with a similar level of gear,not exact, (call the vanguard at 100% and the rogue at 90%), but close enough in gear that I would have though success more likely if assassins are truly doing the type of DPS the devs are saying.

[brzytki]

Where are these dps tests?

Does anyone on this thread put shadowdancer assassin as a top DPS build? I would take any player video showing top tier dps. Tier 3 TF without mortal fear is preferred if it is on a non-Red named.

I tried to test it on Lama yesterday since some people argued that a test on Lama is more meaningful than my tests on live.

So i log in, check my gear, EDs and enahncements to match with those of mine on live, grab a fvs hire and i'm ready to head out to test it only to be reminded by my guildies that MM account achievements do not carry through to Lama... No biggie, i say, off to farm 4k hobs in Tear. After around an hour of farming i have 1,5k kills and 35 different types killed. Good job! 3 out of 5 account deeds completed! But then my ship buffs from live expire! My God, after 5 minutes of waiting for the Store to open to buy enough shards to get a ship and all buffs upgraded and a couple more for the Store to accept my purchase, i manage to buy them. All good, i say, i'ts gonna be easy from now. Not really. Buying and upgrading amenities means running to Dojo and back to the ship a few times to deposit plat (which you need what seemed to be 20-25 mil), only that apparently plat can't be deposited on the ship, you need to run to the guy with airships in harbor... Long story short, it took some time.

Now, happy with ship buffs finally in place i'm running to get the remaining 2,5k hobs. But wait a minute... Somehow during the whole process of gearing up my ship i lost Volume 1 of MM and i can't advance hobs kills anymore... Yes, you guessed right, relogging doesn't fix this. So i wasted 2+ hours of my time and got absolutely nothing.

[brzytki]

Even with two improved deception items (full upgraded agony / epic backstabber's gloves) the amount of time he had his back turned was not enough for either DPS or defense.

Just a nitpick here, you don't need a monster to turn to get SA when Imp Deception procs, sometimes they remain facing you after the proc and you still get SA.

[illuminar]

Right now we are going through the player feedback and DPS videos. We are seeing different results (Assassins are closer to the top builds) and we need more time to figure out why.

Our plan is to take the time to recreate the tests we are seeing and make changes based on those, but we will need a couple of weeks to do that. We have a patch planned in 2-3 weeks where we will be doing more changes to rogues.

For now we changed Assassinate to 12 seconds and boosted Melee Power by a total of 10 by boosted the 4th and 5th cores by 10 each.

Sev~

IMO close is good enough. I would much prefer rogues being set apart by things like letting assassinate bypassing deathblock/ward and allowing rogues to sneak at full speed, than having a specific build tested for DPS milestones. Those things should be secondary (but still important) to giving the rogue a unique tactical advantages. It is just a much better way to improve the class (or any class for that matter). As race to DPS equalization is a race to the bottom -- stagnant gameplay.

[redoubt]

IMO close is good enough. I would much prefer rogues being set apart by things like letting assassinate bypassing deathblock/ward and allowing rogues to sneak at full speed, than having a specific build tested for DPS milestones. Those things should be secondary (but still important) to giving the rogue a unique tactical advantages. It is just a much better way to improve the class (or any class for that matter). As race to DPS equalization is a race to the bottom -- stagnant gameplay.

I completely agree, but so far Severlin has not wanted to boost Lethality or allow bypassing of DB or DW. I would be okay with not further boosting DPS if we made more assassinate type attacks. Lethality using the assassinate mechanic on a vorpal would be one option. Execute was bumped to 30%, but I don't think it is a useful as Severlin says in the Twitch feed. SD Executioner's strike using INT or DEX and bumping up to 50%. And like you said, we need some way around orange names and mobs with DW/DB. Give us that and then we don't need straight up barb DPS; but right now were are a glass canon without the canon.

I have actually tried to test DPS, not because I think assassin DPS alone should be equivalent to Barbarians, but because I was curious. The devs have stated that they have done testing (but have not yet shared their testing methods) and that in their testing rogues are performing well. I shared my experience because it is different that what they are reporting. I'll likely test more, but things seem so far apart, I'm not even sure what to test.

I enjoyed the game back when you needed a group to complete quests. I also still enjoy the game today. If we are going to stick with pushing things that allow solo play, then that needs to be done for all. I see this as a sticking point for assassins.
- Low DPS
- Low Defense
- Low healing
- unable to use the signature move (assassinate) against much of the epic content due to epic ward (I'm guessing DW or DB is hiding under it.)

I just don't understand how so many of us seem to see this side of it, but the devs are seeing something else. If there is something else I can test or try, I will. (I'd be happy to grab ship buffs or put the last piece of gear on if I knew how to make it on lamania. But as good as it is to have the DOJO available, it is still a very cumbersome process to get the right gear and buffs.)

[FlaviusMaximus]

Does it make sense for Rogues to have a reduced BAB anymore? I know this is based on PnP rules, but I'm not sure it makes sense in today's game. Rogues are as much a combat class as any other and I don't think they are getting such strong advantages that they need to be balanced out by a partial DPS hit. If many are of the opinion that Rogues can use a little more boosting, a full BAB would be another nice step in the right direction.

Actually I think it makes sense for a lot of classes to have full BABs. The way classes are becoming "do everythings", perhaps they all should.

[Bobby88888]

IMO close is good enough. I would much prefer rogues being set apart by things like letting assassinate bypassing deathblock/ward and allowing rogues to sneak at full speed, than having a specific build tested for DPS milestones. Those things should be secondary (but still important) to giving the rogue a unique tactical advantages. It is just a much better way to improve the class (or any class for that matter). As race to DPS equalization is a race to the bottom -- stagnant gameplay.

Basically this.

Buff assassinate and sneaking with small DPS boost via SA damage rather than trying to boost DPS up to the absurd levels of barb, pally, bard to make them viable.

[draven1]

Does it make sense for Rogues to have a reduced BAB anymore? I know this is based on PnP rules, but I'm not sure it makes sense in today's game. Rogues are as much a combat class as any other and I don't think they are getting such strong advantages that they need to be balanced out by a partial DPS hit. If many are of the opinion that Rogues can use a little more boosting, a full BAB would be another nice step in the right direction.

Actually I think it makes sense for a lot of classes to have full BABs. The way classes are becoming "do everythings", perhaps they all should.

I think it shows why assassins isn't front-line combatant.
They don't have full BAB, so, if they have aggro, they will have some flaw about low to-hit & losing sneak attack.
But they can have backstab(+2 hit from flanking, +more from backstabbing gears) which compensate miss chances from 2/3 BAB.

Only missed ones are attack speed & PRR/MRR from full BAB. I think there should be some attack speed boost from keeping sneak attack. Missed PRR/MRR can be from light armor enhancement.

[draven1]

Basically this.

Buff assassinate and sneaking with small DPS boost via SA damage rather than trying to boost DPS up to the absurd levels of barb, pally, bard to make them viable.

But, assassins had far better DPS than barb, pally, bard before ED(U14).

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/298001-Best-TWF-build-considering-DPS


You can see that rogues and rogue splashes are the undisputed champions of trash. But this shouldn't be all that surprising; the model assumes that they always have sneak attack vs 0% fort, and sneak attacks make up around 40% of their DPS vs 0% fort. This is the situation that they excel at. The disadvantage is the relatively low HP of rogues and the setting up of this situation: in a group, the rogue has to wait slightly for someone else to draw aggro first (meaning that his initial DPS is 0), while solo, the rogue would be using radiance weapons; if he is using khopeshes then there is a longer period of time before he gets the sneak attacks, while if he is using rapiers then his trash DPS is lowered. The model also assumes hitting on a roll of 2 or higher which is a boon for rogues because of their relatively low to-hit. But when the conditions are set up correctly, you can't beat a rogue against trash.

http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac182/Vanshilar/DPS_Trash_20110123.gif

[gwonbush]

Do note that that bar graph misrepresents the differences between the classes by not including 0-300 dps in the length of the bar.

[draven1]

Do note that that bar graph misrepresents the differences between the classes by not including 0-300 dps in the length of the bar.

But, it shows at least pure assassins had 140+ DPS than pure barb on ideal situation. 28% more DPS than pure barb.

Assassins didn't have top tier DPS.

They were just the KING OF DPS in right situation before ED.

We need just "the return of the king".

[gwonbush]

I'm not denying the numbers themselves, merely that removing the first 300 from each bar skews the "at a glance" difference in the favor of the rogue, making it look like it has 1.7x as much dps as a barb instead of the 1.28x that it actually had.

[Bobby88888]

But, assassins had far better DPS than barb, pally, bard before ED(U14).

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/298001-Best-TWF-build-considering-DPS

Yes, definitely, but I don't think giving my assassin 6k DPM or more to get in the same league is the right way to go, not to mention that all of this can't come from the Assassin tree, the EDs need to be rebalanced including a substantial buff to Shadowdancer. Which can include more DPS buffs but just lumping on more and more damage is the wrong way to go about this. Some damage? yes and it needs to be decent enough and Assassinate also needs to become the top insta kill again coupled with good to great damage and poor defences and heals.

But don't make Assassins 'easy'. As long as they don't become an easy button I can get over anything else, but an easy button is what we don't want.

[draven1]

But don't make Assassins 'easy'. As long as they don't become an easy button I can get over anything else, but an easy button is what we don't want.

Don't forget assassin's DPS is from sneak attack, not just facerolling.
I think assassin can't be easy button by any means except DPS UP for raw dmg with invincible defense(most easy buttons have these), not sneak attack.

[Bobby88888]

Don't forget assassin's DPS is from sneak attack, not just facerolling.
I think assassin can't be easy button by any means except DPS UP for raw dmg with invincible defense(most easy buttons have these), not sneak attack.

Not enough damage comes from SA, less than 1/3 and MP which seems to be what we are getting to boost DPS benefits normal damge more than SA damage as a result, though it would require a significant damage boost before we got into the 'easy' range due to the low survivability but I would prefer to see assassins as not necessarily the biggest damage by 28% but maybe similar to top damage with assassinate being the best insta kill. That balances out the no heals and poor defences I think. but some of that damage boost needs to come from EDs so Shadowdancer needs a buff (and make that one big :D ) to fix this problem, not just buffing the assassin tree.

but basically I mostly agree

[redoubt]

There is a lot of talk about how to improve assassin's without making them an easy button. Many of them center around improving sneak attack. So what is involved there and what would be balancing factors if SA was somehow boosted? Some I can think of include:

1. You can't have agro (generally, yes there are a few exceptions). SA damage goes to 0 if you pull agro.
2. Mob must be vulnerable to sneak attack. There are entire classes of mobs that are immune. This makes places where assassins are really good and places where they are really bad.
3. Mob must have less than 100% fort. Fortified mobs reduce SA damage by the amount of fort they have. You can build for bypass, but that is a design decision.
4. It is self regulating. For example, if you are in a boss beat down and getting really good SA damage and exceed the damage of the tank, you get agro and lose your SA damage. Now that your damage is reduced, the boss turns back around and attacks the tank again and your SA damage returns. There can be a disparity between the actual dps due to +/- threat, but it will reach a steady state point.

Having though about it some, I can see how adding power via SA is both fitting in style, but also balanced / held in check by its inherent mechanics. I could support going this direction as opposed to more base damage, crit adjustments or MP. Some idea have already been presented. Here are some as well (not all original):

1. SA scales with xxx MP
2. SA can crit

I think both of those are good ideas, but may be too easy to multi-class and I would prefer to tuck them deep into the assassin tree and tie them to knives:

1. Each core adds: SA damage scales with 10% melee power when using knives (values are cumulative within the assassin tree and do not stack with any enhancements outside the assassin tree.)
2. Each rank of SA adds: SA damage scales with 5% melee power when using knives (values are cumulative within the assassin tree and do not stack with any enhancements outside the assassin tree.)
3. Knife Specialization adds: SA damage scales with 20% melee power when using knives (values are cumulative within the assassin tree and do not stack with any enhancements outside the assassin tree.)
4. Deadly Shadow adds: When using knives, your SA damage is multiplied by your critical multiplier on a confirmed critical.

An assassin become even more of a binary killer. (i.e does great or terrible.) If playing with a great DPS+threat tank, the assassin's off tank DPS can skyrocket. If playing in a situation where the rogue has agro, DPS stays low. The problems (and solutions) to undead, constructs etc (mobs with total or high resistance to SA) remain unchanged.

I really wanted to see Lethality turn into an assassinate check for style and total DPS reasons, but I could get behind a change like this as well.

[Nothingtoseehere]

There is a lot of talk about how to improve assassin's without making them an easy button. Many of them center around improving sneak attack. So what is involved there and what would be balancing factors if SA was somehow boosted? Some I can think of include:

1. You can't have agro (generally, yes there are a few exceptions). SA damage goes to 0 if you pull agro.
2. Mob must be vulnerable to sneak attack. There are entire classes of mobs that are immune. This makes places where assassins are really good and places where they are really bad.
3. Mob must have less than 100% fort. Fortified mobs reduce SA damage by the amount of fort they have. You can build for bypass, but that is a design decision.
4. It is self regulating. For example, if you are in a boss beat down and getting really good SA damage and exceed the damage of the tank, you get agro and lose your SA damage. Now that your damage is reduced, the boss turns back around and attacks the tank again and your SA damage returns. There can be a disparity between the actual dps due to +/- threat, but it will reach a steady state point.

Having though about it some, I can see how adding power via SA is both fitting in style, but also balanced / held in check by its inherent mechanics. I could support going this direction as opposed to more base damage, crit adjustments or MP. Some idea have already been presented. Here are some as well (not all original):

1. SA scales with xxx MP
2. SA can crit

I think both of those are good ideas, but may be too easy to multi-class and I would prefer to tuck them deep into the assassin tree and tie them to knives:

1. Each core adds: SA damage scales with 10% melee power when using knives (values are cumulative within the assassin tree and do not stack with any enhancements outside the assassin tree.)
2. Each rank of SA adds: SA damage scales with 5% melee power when using knives (values are cumulative within the assassin tree and do not stack with any enhancements outside the assassin tree.)
3. Knife Specialization adds: SA damage scales with 20% melee power when using knives (values are cumulative within the assassin tree and do not stack with any enhancements outside the assassin tree.)
4. Deadly Shadow adds: When using knives, your SA damage is multiplied by your critical multiplier on a confirmed critical.

An assassin become even more of a binary killer. (i.e does great or terrible.) If playing with a great DPS+threat tank, the assassin's off tank DPS can skyrocket. If playing in a situation where the rogue has agro, DPS stays low. The problems (and solutions) to undead, constructs etc (mobs with total or high resistance to SA) remain unchanged.

I really wanted to see Lethality turn into an assassinate check for style and total DPS reasons, but I could get behind a change like this as well.

Some good ideas there.

I agree that SA damage is either a all or nothing thing which is why it is not only OK for it to be high SA damage, potentially the biggest damage in the game when a Rogue Assassin is SAing but at least up there, and due to all the conditions it can be the best DPS but being the best will get that agro and slow down that damage.

I dont know who suggested the SA crits and SA scaling first anymore but I know when I suggested them the intent was for core 5 and capstone sort of area since heroic is fine mostly and Epic is where the boost is more needed and to prevent splashing them. But the as you progress also works but has to be taken into account in terms of how other rogues might dip into the tree for those abilities.
Also adding more SA dice is another option that could be done in addition to or instead of some of the above.

Personally I am not keen on an assassinate on vorpal style thing since assassinate is a highly tactical ability and having it randomly trigger runs counter to that and by the time you get a vorpal it is more likely it will happen when the mob is on lower HP. But at this stage I will take anything I can get for core 5 but my preference is the SA crits. A random assassinate doesn't sit with my idea of the assassin but it is in keeping with the flavour of the current lethality, as is the SA crits but at least do something for Lethality. Please.

[draven1]

Some good ideas there.

I agree that SA damage is either a all or nothing thing which is why it is not only OK for it to be high SA damage, potentially the biggest damage in the game when a Rogue Assassin is SAing but at least up there, and due to all the conditions it can be the best DPS but being the best will get that agro and slow down that damage.

I dont know who suggested the SA crits and SA scaling first anymore but I know when I suggested them the intent was for core 5 and capstone sort of area since heroic is fine mostly and Epic is where the boost is more needed and to prevent splashing them. But the as you progress also works but has to be taken into account in terms of how other rogues might dip into the tree for those abilities.
Also adding more SA dice is another option that could be done in addition to or instead of some of the above.

Personally I am not keen on an assassinate on vorpal style thing since assassinate is a highly tactical ability and having it randomly trigger runs counter to that and by the time you get a vorpal it is more likely it will happen when the mob is on lower HP. But at this stage I will take anything I can get for core 5 but my preference is the SA crits. A random assassinate doesn't sit with my idea of the assassin but it is in keeping with the flavour of the current lethality, as is the SA crits but at least do something for Lethality. Please.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/451517-Make-sneak-attack-damage-crittable

I suggested SA crits first on suggestion & this thread.
The intent was giving competent DPS to assassin for epics, but, "core 6 : deadly shadow" have many good things now.
So, I think "core 5: lethality" is the place to have SA crit. It really fits well for its flavor.
Sneak attack crit will give real "Lethality" for assassins.

IMO, assassinate on vorpal would be over-powered if they have practical DC or useless if they don't have it.
Many on vorpal-like instakills(vorpal, nightmare, WoP) had been nerfed in DDO history.
Because it was too good, devs nerfed it to useless level.

Assassinate is very tactical ability, that's not for auto-attack.
If assassins need more instakills besides assassinate, we can focus on "Execute" in assassin enhancement & "Executioner's Strike", "Consume" in shadowdancer.
Those need some serious love. Especially for "Execute". It had a buff on this revamp, but still very very weak.
I would like it if "Execute" have some kind of "Exalted smite evil"-like ability.

Execute (cooldown 12 sec):
On 30% hp mob, gaining twice your Int or Dex bonus and a damage bonus based on your rogue level.
Adds +1/+1/+2 to your weapon's critical damage multiplier and 0/+1/+2 to your weapon's critical threat range.
Some damage portion may need some adjustment, because usual assassins use very low base weapon damage weapon(1d4).
Or Knife Specialization can have some damage boost like making 1d4 to 1d6 or 1d8 or 2d4.

[redoubt]

Personally I am not keen on an assassinate on vorpal style thing since assassinate is a highly tactical ability and having it randomly trigger runs counter to that and by the time you get a vorpal it is more likely it will happen when the mob is on lower HP. But at this stage I will take anything I can get for core 5 but my preference is the SA crits. A random assassinate doesn't sit with my idea of the assassin but it is in keeping with the flavour of the current lethality, as is the SA crits but at least do something for Lethality. Please.




IMO, assassinate on vorpal would be over-powered if they have practical DC or useless if they don't have it.
Many on vorpal-like instakills(vorpal, nightmare, WoP) had been nerfed in DDO history.
Because it was too good, devs nerfed it to useless level.



I just wanted to clarify that the idea I was pushing for Lethality (assassinate on vorpal) still requires it to be a sneak attack and for the DC to pass (and likely without the boost from MtF since you may not be in sneak) and has a cool down timer equal to that of assassinate, so it would not be on every vorpal.

[Full_Bleed]

I figure this is the perfect place to put new ideas/requests if we want them to be "overlooked" at this point, so here goes...


I think that the 10d6 additional sneak damage from a failed Assassination attempt is legacy and should scale better in epic levels.

I also think that replacing that with a more substantial bleed effect might be an even better option. The strength of the bleed could even be based on the assassination attempt itself by scaling it off of how close to killing the target you were. That is, a kill shot that is missed by 1 would produce the highest possible bleed with a lower base point on a larger fail.


Basically, I think being able to get more out of assassination (even on fail) is more thematic, will give it more utility, and makes it more fun to use.

[Chaios]

The strength of the bleed could even be based on the assassination attempt itself by scaling it off of how close to killing the target you were. That is, a kill shot that is missed by 1 would produce the highest possible bleed with a lower base point on a larger fail.


Basically, I think being able to get more out of assassination (even on fail) is more thematic, will give it more utility, and makes it more fun to use.

That's a cool idea, especially scaling it off the die roll. Only request: Describe how it interacts with mobs that are immune to Assassinate but not SA.

[redoubt]

We all love that this is a fast moving combat game, but that leaves little time to target a monster and examine it before attacking. Even if you do that, as an assassin looking for DeathWard, it could be hidden under the EpicWard icon.

Could you make it so that when you have at least one stack of MTF, any mob immune to assassinate has a DW icon displayed for us?