Rogue - Assassin Changes

[Erofen]

There is no need to completely change the main stat of the assassin, can they add another option to it? sure, as long as the old option remains viable.
Imagine the outrage if with the fighter pass they changed all the tactical feats to use wisdom for their DC. Certainly it wouldn't be too hard to slot in a bunch of Wis items and move forwards but I doubt it would be popular. If it was a change of use X or Wis where X is whatever if was before but people would probably question why the change but find that it has little effect on them unless they really wanted a high Wis ftr and move on with a shrug.

At least that is the way I see it.

Though I still think Assassin DPS will probably be too low given their weak defences and no self heals but that is a less important issue.

Except the main two stats for a rogue regardless of prestige have always been dex and int. Wisdom besides will saves is irrelevant to a fighter. Also really getting tired of people referring to if they not the best they are not viable or proxy nerfed. Int still has significant advantages and disadvantages.

No, it is still a very important issue. I am not asking for barb like heals, but we need something. Maybe akin to crusader and heal on sneak attack kill? The defenses and hp also need a look at, because dodge just does not cut it. When rogues get hit they splat. Low base hp does not help at all either.

[Bobby88888]

Except the main two stats for a rogue regardless of prestige have always been dex and int. Wisdom besides will saves is irrelevant to a fighter. Also really getting tired of people referring to if they not the best they are not viable or proxy nerfed. Int still has significant advantages and disadvantages.

No, it is still a very important issue. I am not asking for barb like heals, but we need something. Maybe akin to crusader and heal on sneak attack kill? The defenses and hp also need a look at, because dodge just does not cut it. When rogues get hit they splat. Low base hp does not help at all either.

No example is perfect since it is unlikely anywhere there is the same problem to relate to it exactly, that sort of nit pick is just trying to blocka n argument that you have no counterargument for. Put in Con in the example then since ftrs will probs have that higher.
Int assassins still need good dex, I have a 40 dex on my Int assassin since I need that for sneaking, an incredibly important part of the assassinate ability. But a Dex assassin can dump Int.
Give me a list of the advantages of Int over Dex then please so I can see what advantages you are talking about and make me realise my stance is wrong.
I gave a list of the advantages of Dex over Int a few pages back and it was a long list, there was a line or 2 of advantages Int had over dex but most of those were arbitrary or could be made up by swapping ED with your vastly higher DC, infact the only one that couldn't be made back was +20 hamp that I could find.

And I am really tired of people saying that Int is just as good as Dex with this change when it clearly isn't and plenty of evidence has been provided to prove it isn't while no evidence has been provided to show that they are on an equal, or nearly equal footing. Probably because no such evidence exists.
Everyone is planning up the Dex builds now, all the forum builds are being converted over, everyone is saying they will go dex. I wonder why, maybe everyone just feels like going dex based on a whim.

Sure Int would still be viable, but why bother with it when just by increasing Dex anyplace you could increase Int you could turn out much more powerful, it doesn't add up at all. From a min/max perspective or a flavour perspective.


Ignoring that whole mess but, I don't think heal on kill is a good idea for it, Making wand and scroll mastery accessible for all rogues and possibly a small UMD bonus are all the buffs rogues should get on heals IMO, should be concentrated on defence, offence and utility. And if Int and Dex were balanced they could highlight different areas of those so you can pick, do I want more damage? go X stat, more defence? go Y stat, or better Assassinate? go Z stat. No I am not saying put 3 stats pick 2 of them and leave the 3rd as an equal parameter.

[redoubt]

Ideas:

1. 5% per rogue level of DW & DB bypass
2. Shadow Dancer: 5% per core of DW & DB bypass
3. Rogue bonus feat option: quicken scroll
4. Rogue bonus feat option: healing amp 20
5. INT to hit in core1
6. INT to damage in core2
7. Insightful reflexes in core 18
8. New icon for epic ward so it is not confused with DW.
9. Make sneaking and breaking line of sight, break the agro lock of mobs.
10. Implement a critical success/fail system for assassinate
11. combine dex and int in the assassinate DC
12. have nimbleness increase MDB and max dodge
13. have MTF increase MDB (it already increases max dodge)
14. make killer expire one stack at a time
15. make MTF last at least 12 seconds (15 would be better)
16. put a timer in the MTF icon on the buff bar
17. make nimbleness expire one stack at a time
18. make MTF expire one stack at a time
19. implement a system to allow us to activate switches and open doors without exiting sneak. (mobs can look for us, that's fine, just don't auto-pull me out of sneak.)
20. make lethality an assassinate check on vorpal (15 second cooldown.)

These are not all my ideas, just the ones I could remember off the top of my head. Its not like the community failed to provide ideas. Half of these are not even about DPS...

[gwonbush]

Too late for more ideas, patch tomorrow.

[BigErkyKid]

Too late for more ideas, patch tomorrow.

What? Oh wow! So the changes we saw here were mostly a preview, not a WIP?

Anyway, I guess its some DPS and dodge and the structural problems of the class will just have to be solved by the players with their play style.

You can always roll a MF repeater mechanic if your rogue is too frustrating to play as assassin or TA. Ranged easy button for the win?

[Bobby88888]

If what we have seen is what we are getting then I am very Disappointed. Not a happy customer.
These changes are a huge let down, you could have done some unique cool and interesting things but instead you completely kill the flavour of the Assassin and just chuck on MP and crit multipliers. Great way to homogenise the game, the game needs the flavour to keep things feeling different and unique. If every class is just about getting the biggest crit multiplier and the highest MP then why bother having anything more than 1 melee and 1 caster class, after all everyone can self heal now so we don't need the healer category. But what would I know I am only a player of the game.

When it was announced Rog would be next up for a revamp I was quite excited at the prospect of some new life being given to them. But they still have basically the worst self heals in the game (not that I'm saying that is a bad thing for that point at least), they still have very poor defences, and their dmg is now average as opposed to poor. And you changed it from where you could be both flavourful and good to flavourful or good (and noone try and tell me Int is more powerful than before because it is, but why would you go with a build that is weaker in every department for any reason except flavour?) and if the game difficult increases then the flavour option will nolonger be something you can play in EE. So you can be Dex or go home.

Sure it would've take a bit of work to balance Dex and Int, but it would've been even less work to not implement the Dex in the first place, which you knew wasn't balanced since there was an overwhelming amount of responses saying as much when you tentatively suggested it initially. So it seems that you intentionally set out to degrade the class and remove the flavour, which is far worse again and seems a bit of a silly thing to do. Given that I really hope you have done more since you last posted changes and acted on all the feedback you have been given and actually produced something good, though the silence isn't reassuring me that is the case and I am not holding my breath.

Just look a few posts up and you can see a list of just a handful of the ideas the community had that were more focused on enhancing the flavour with a little power gain, not that it matters much if dex goes in without balancing the flavour of the class is smashed to bits anyway.

Push this back as long as you need to fix it an get it right, I can wait another few weeks if it means actually getting a finished product that has been thought out and well made.

Sigh, not likely but, try again with the next class and hope that doesn't go so poorly, and put rogue back on the list of classes that needs redoing and try again soon

[slarden]

I think int builds can still be the top single-target dps by a slight edge and that will be their niche. To get this edge they will need to drop a little int which is now possible with the DC bonus in the capstone. An example with Drow:

Racial Tree: 0 (avoids the 2 wasted AP to get 2 int)
Assassin Tree: 44 including mark for 10 damage
Acrobat Tree: 11 for Fast Movement, 2x Sly Flourish, 3x Subtlety and 3x Haste Boost
Harper Tree: 25 for KTA of 13-14 and 6 Melee Power +1 weapon enchantment bonus from harper enchantment and + 2 damage against evil from Harper Agent of Good

By dropping 2 int I am losing 1 DC and 1 damage, but am gaining haste boost and a few more points for assassin which is needed now to fit everything in. To pick up the other damage boost in Assassin I would need to drop execuite and the 1 point I have to light armor mastery. This probably isn't needed, but to max single target dps it can be done.

Without completionist and Littany your Int is 62 and KTA 13. With completionist and Littany Int is 66 and KTA is 14. The trade-off dex builds get is alot more AP freedom and survivability.

So for max single-target damage an int build would go:

1st Degree Burns from TF Weapon - up to 20% vulnerability
KTA: 14 damage
10 Damage from Mark
30% Damage Action Boost Twist from Legendary Dreadnought

Compared to pre-U25 the int-based assassin is doing 10 extra damage and their sneak damage is scaling with 150% melee power - so it's clearly better than before, but still lagging behind dex builds overall- but with very solid boss damage

Dex Build would have

+1 damage from higher dex vs. int (68 vs 66)
- 7 KTA
+ 4 sneak attack dice (assuming int builds would take daunting roar over echoes of the ancestor shadowdancer - I know I would if I played an int build)

This is compared to a "boss beating" variant of this build (concept of boss beating variant came from cthru):

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/459362-Halfling-Dex-Assassin-1-0

To turn the halfling dex build into a boss-beater I would need to give up 4 dex (dropping dex from 72 to 68) and would lose no mercy, but I still have the full halfling healing line. This loss of 4 dex includes 1 rank of shadowdancer which is unfortunate.

Boss beating variant: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/459362-Halfling-Dex-Assassin-1-0?p=5598576&viewfull=1#post5598576

One benefit int builds have that dex builds can't match is daunting roar. I used this alot and it will be interesting to see how losing this easy button will impact me. I may have to be a little less aggressive since I have 1 less escape button. Although I think the healing line more than makes up for the loss of Daunting Roar assuming I manage aggro properly.

However I think most people will keep no mercy because helplessness state is so common when grouping and that extra 30% turns you into a beast. This means int builds will still be the best single-target assassins even though it's theoretically possible to match their single-target dps with a dex build.

[Ayseifn]

I think int builds can still be the top single-target dps by a slight edge and that will be their niche. To get this edge they will need to drop a little int which is now possible with the DC bonus in the capstone. An example with Drow:


Drow is a bad choice if you're comparing DPS, you miss out on human damage boost or if comparing to halfling possibly 3d6 SA.

[brzytki]

I use a 30% damage boost from LD as a drow (actually sun elf but same for this comparison). Is the 20% human damage boost on a different timer?

Yes it is. That's why human is a beast when it comes to burst DPS.

[slarden]

Drow is a bad choice if you're comparing DPS, you miss out on human damage boost or if comparing to halfling possibly 3d6 SA.

I use a 30% damage boost from LD as a drow (actually sun elf but same for this comparison). Is the 20% human damage boost on a different timer?

An int build doesn't have the AP to take the halfling sneak attack damage line. A dex build with much more freedom barely has the AP for that.

You are also forgetting that many of our race choices on existing int-assassins was made long before this upcoming update. Since I chose sun elf long ago harper tree was added and now the devs are making dex the best assassinate stat instead of int. When looking at WHY we chose the races we did requires looking at the game at the time the choice was made.

[slarden]

Yes it is. That's why human is a beast when it comes to burst DPS.

Yeah that would make human the best int-assassin dps for 100 seconds if LD Damage boost is also twisted in then and both boosts were used at the same time. It's hard to believe that would be working as intended.

For a quest like EE Temple of Elemental Evil I am not sure I would build around 100 seconds of amazing burst damage though. Three is alot of fighting between shrines.

[brzytki]

Yeah that would make human the best int-assassin dps for 100 seconds if LD Damage boost is also twisted in then and both boosts were used at the same time. It's hard to believe that would be working as intended.

For a quest like EE Temple of Elemental Evil I am not sure I would build around 100 seconds of amazing burst damage though. Three is alot of fighting between shrines.

To be honest I'm not using the combo on regular trash mobs often and I have +3 uses twisted. I also rarely shrine in quests as I don't feel the need to unless i'm low on the boosts. Even then I can just swap in my T3 dagger with recharge in the off-hand every 2-3 minutes for a boost and it's really enough.

[Ayseifn]

I use a 30% damage boost from LD as a drow (actually sun elf but same for this comparison). Is the 20% human damage boost on a different timer?


You can stack racial and class based boosts, ED boosts AFAIK still count as class boosts so still on the same timer as class ones.

[slarden]

To be honest I'm not using the combo on regular trash mobs often and I have +3 uses twisted. I also rarely shrine in quests as I don't feel the need to unless i'm low on the boosts. Even then I can just swap in my T3 dagger with recharge in the off-hand every 2-3 minutes for a boost and it's really enough.

Yeah that would be an important twist when using that combo. I've considered using the twist myself without the combo, but figuring out what to give up is a challenge.

[slarden]

You can stack racial and class based boosts, ED boosts AFAIK still count as class boosts so still on the same timer as class ones.

Yeah that's definitely some great burst dps effectively turning the 20% action boost into a 26% action boost for those 100 seconds (160 with a twist) by stacking the benefits of the 30% action boost.

I will be going with a dex-based halfling assassin over the extra burst dps. The double bonus makes for great screen shots and video clips, but I don't want to build for a 100 sec burst.

[BigErkyKid]

Yeah that's definitely some great burst dps effectively turning the 20% action boost into a 26% action boost for those 100 seconds (160 with a twist) by stacking the benefits of the 30% action boost.

I will be going with a dex-based halfling assassin over the extra burst dps. The double bonus makes for great screen shots and video clips, but I don't want to build for a 100 sec burst.

Well, truth is that those 100 secs you say make the hell of a difference.

Most quests only have a few bottlenecks were you need to fight, so the boosts speed them up a lot if you know the quest well.

[CThruTheEgo]

If what we have seen is what we are getting then I am very Disappointed. Not a happy customer.

Sev did say that there wasn't time to preview these changes on Lam, so it was expected that these were the changes we were getting, and it was a pretty safe bet that the update was happening this week. Last minute announcements are Turbine's style.


When it was announced Rog would be next up for a revamp I was quite excited at the prospect of some new life being given to them. But they still have basically the worst self heals in the game (not that I'm saying that is a bad thing for that point at least), they still have very poor defences, and their dmg is now average as opposed to poor.

I think you're severely underestimating 150% melee power to sneak attack damage and +1 crit multiplier. It should make up for the poor self healing and defenses. With 107 melee power and 29d6+17 sneak attack damage, I'll be doing an average of 368 sneak attack damage per hit, on a twf. That's just sneak attack damage, not counting any base damage which will also go up. That's not average damage.


And you changed it from where you could be both flavourful and good to flavourful or good (and noone try and tell me Int is more powerful than before because it is, but why would you go with a build that is weaker in every department for any reason except flavour?) and if the game difficult increases then the flavour option will nolonger be something you can play in EE. So you can be Dex or go home.

I don't understand all this talk about killing the flavor of the assassin. Assassins can just as likely be dex based as int based. Now if they were changing it to wis or cha based, then I'd be happy to grab a pitchfork with you. But dex based is definitely within the realm of flavor. Maybe it's not the specific flavor you like, but the flavor of the class has not been destroyed. I would also prefer to stay int based, but I don't feel like I'm lying to myself by pretending that my assassin is an agile killer instead of a cunning one. And please don't try to defend why they should be int based. I've skipped over the vast majority of the dex vs int flavor posts because they are irrelevant since both are reasonable.

I agree that some degree of balance should have been sought by Turbine, but that's Turbine's MO. They don't really do balance and never have. So I'm not surprised. And besides, Sev has stated several reasons why they think int is balanced with dex, so there's your answer to your questions from an earlier post – they think it is balanced. We know it is not and we know their reasoning is severely flawed, but we aren't making the decisions.

[CThruTheEgo]

Yeah that would make human the best int-assassin dps for 100 seconds if LD Damage boost is also twisted in then and both boosts were used at the same time. It's hard to believe that would be working as intended.

It is WAI. It has always been this way and is one of the most significant advantages of human. AFAIK, human damage boost does not stack with class based damage boost. You can activate human damage boost with class damage boost, but they won't actually stack. ED action boosts are considered class based action boosts. In other words, you cannot activate multiple class based action boosts at the same time. Activating one will put all the others on cooldown. But humans can use human damage boost simultaneously with haste or melee power boost.

[slarden]

I want to thank Executive Producer Severlin and the entire development team for the hard work and great outcome on Assassin. While it will take a while to level up my character as a dex-based assassin to test everything from the patch, it's safe to say assassins are significantly improved and more fun to play now after this patch.

While I would have preferred that int assassins received some balance adjustments, the addition of dex to assassinate opens up many new build possibilities especially with regards to survivability.

I especially appreciate all the communication during this process and hope that continues.

Great job!

[dualscissors]

With the freed up feat I am trying to figure out the best way to use it.

I was looking at improved feint which is most likely not worth 2 feats, but I was wondering if anyone has any experience using it. Is the animation slow? is an 83 bluff enough in higher level EE content?

Despite hearing bad things about the feat, I opted to use it for a heroic life at the end of 2013. Having an AoE bluff effect seemed useful for soloing and getting sneak attack. After running a whole life with Improved Feint, I don't see room for reasonable disagreement: it's bad.

The AoE bluff isn't bad but the slowness of the animation (one one thousand, two one thousand, and a half) leaves you hanging far too long. What's more if you move or attack before the end of the animation, you will break the Improved Feint effect, i.e. you will have spent seconds standing around but not long enough to trigger the bluff effect.

The lack of practicality on top of buying the prereq. feat Combat Expertise makes Improved Feint a problematic ability to use as well as feat-expensive. I had some hope that the animation for Improved Feint would get reduced with the update like Assassin's Trick did. A localized turn-around effect on several close mobs would be deemed a useful CC method for some rogues, even at the 2 feat cost.

I have not read any notes that anything has changed with this feat since the end of 2013.

[slarden]

Despite hearing bad things about the feat, I opted to use it for a heroic life at the end of 2013. Having an AoE bluff effect seemed useful for soloing and getting sneak attack. After running a whole life with Improved Feint, I don't see room for reasonable disagreement: it's bad.

The AoE bluff isn't bad but the slowness of the animation (one one thousand, two one thousand, and a half) leaves you hanging far too long. What's more if you move or attack before the end of the animation, you will break the Improved Feint effect, i.e. you will have spent seconds standing around but not long enough to trigger the bluff effect.

The lack of practicality on top of buying the prereq. feat Combat Expertise makes Improved Feint a problematic ability to use as well as feat-expensive. I had some hope that the animation for Improved Feint would get reduced with the update like Assassin's Trick did. A localized turn-around effect on several close mobs would be deemed a useful CC method for some rogues, even at the 2 feat cost.

I have not read any notes that anything has changed with this feat since the end of 2013.

Thank you it sounds like a non-starter and something that isn't used and therefore unlikely to get dev attention. The 2 feat requirement alone is bad enough.

[psykopeta]

Thank you it sounds like a non-starter and something that isn't used and therefore unlikely to get dev attention. The 2 feat requirement alone is bad enough.

for soloing is great for 2 reasons:
- less players, less scaling, you can survive til the animation is done, it's like cleaving with improved deception weapon+gearpiece
- i used it as acrobat, and with 2 cleaves (because iirc you won't have time for a 3rd) with SA kills all the stuff

so the rotation would be:
- improved feint
- 2 cleaves
- run away with cocoon (i did it right before the enhancement pass, so no prr)
- improved feint
- lay waste?momentum swing? whichever is the aoe + great cleave

at that point everything would be dead

however don't forget it, you gotta see your hp dropping while using improved feint

you also can ignore it, cause iirc you couldn't fit all feats (i used something called... "circus" build, 13 rogue 6 monk 1 druid, was funny tho)

[Chaios]

With the freed up feat I am trying to figure out the best way to use it.

I was looking at improved feint which is most likely not worth 2 feats, but I was wondering if anyone has any experience using it. Is the animation slow? is an 83 bluff enough in higher level EE content?

This is what I can tell you about Improved Feint

1)Improved Feint is an attack and as far as I've experienced, that attack happens with no more delay than any other special attack. Maybe the people who write concerning IFs unusable delay are writing about Bluff, which does have a long animation delay and while it isn't good in combat, it requires no feats and is great for pulling single targets around corners or away from door ways/switches.

2)If you freed up one feat and are interested in Improved Feint, either you already have Combat Expertise or... well, why are you asking if it may not be worth two feats when you wrote that you had only freed up one feat and wondered if IF would be a decent choice? I ask out of curiosity and a desire for clarity more than out of pique: Do you already have CE or not?
if you already have CE then try IF and see for yourself if you like it. Its 3 days and a sibery's shard to switch out.
if you're trying to decide whether or not getting IF can justify keeping CE, rather than ditching CE and grabbing some other two feat combo... well, what combos, pls :)
if you're trying to decide whether IF is worth switching out something so that you can get CE also... it depends on how much you're willing to change from something that you know works for you.

the only thing I can tell you is that there is no more delay between activating and landing this attack than with an other, it cycles well other attacks, and if you keep auto attack on it doesn't interrupt the attack sequence any more than any other special attack.

[dualscissors]

the only thing I can tell you is that there is no more delay between activating and landing this attack than with an other, it cycles well other attacks, and if you keep auto attack on it doesn't interrupt the attack sequence any more than any other special attack.

Interesting point about auto-attack. I almost always turn it off and like to click.

With normal Bluff (which does have a long animation if you let it go), you can key Sunder to halt the delay and still get the bluff effect.

With Improved Feint you are stuck watching the entire animation. Anything that you key the same way (as far as I've figured out) will ruin the effect. As does moving or attacking. On an accidentally curtailed and ruined attempt to use Improved Feint, unfortunately, the cooldown will still go on 15 second rotation.



for soloing is great for 2 reasons:
- less players, less scaling, you can survive til the animation is done, it's like cleaving with improved deception weapon+gearpiece


I don't know... I can't say I enjoyed the experience of being stuck standing for 3 seconds while mobs were jumping on me. Sometimes, for sure, you can get the effect off before they are on you; other times I found myself a punching bag. This isn't a problem on Normal, but warning to those using it on higher difficulties.

[slarden]

This is what I can tell you about Improved Feint

1)Improved Feint is an attack and as far as I've experienced, that attack happens with no more delay than any other special attack. Maybe the people who write concerning IFs unusable delay are writing about Bluff, which does have a long animation delay and while it isn't good in combat, it requires no feats and is great for pulling single targets around corners or away from door ways/switches.

2)If you freed up one feat and are interested in Improved Feint, either you already have Combat Expertise or... well, why are you asking if it may not be worth two feats when you wrote that you had only freed up one feat and wondered if IF would be a decent choice? I ask out of curiosity and a desire for clarity more than out of pique: Do you already have CE or not?
if you already have CE then try IF and see for yourself if you like it. Its 3 days and a sibery's shard to switch out.
if you're trying to decide whether or not getting IF can justify keeping CE, rather than ditching CE and grabbing some other two feat combo... well, what combos, pls :)
if you're trying to decide whether IF is worth switching out something so that you can get CE also... it depends on how much you're willing to change from something that you know works for you.

the only thing I can tell you is that there is no more delay between activating and landing this attack than with an other, it cycles well other attacks, and if you keep auto attack on it doesn't interrupt the attack sequence any more than any other special attack.

This is helpful. I don't currently take CE so I would have to replace another feat with it or go human with it. I want to run about 50 or so EE quests at cap and see how the build does and specifically how much sneak attack damage is going through. I've been wondering if the higher dps could mean more difficulty maintaining sneak damage even with high threat reduction. Improved feint could be a good dps boost if I have trouble maintaining sneak damage with the higher damage output.

I am currently a dex-based halfling assassin and one thing I noticed is that I am getting such massive damage increases from the damage and haste action boosts because my #s are bigger after the rogue pass. At the same time I am noticing no mercy is less beneficial than before because it takes fewer hits to take down an enemy.

Basically my assessment is
- no mercy is less valuable now that dps is higher
- action boosts are more valuable than before
- KTA is less valuable now as it provides a smaller percentage of damage, although obviously any int build will take since they will reach up for int to damage. However, it's 14 damage on a 68 int assassin which is tiny compared to the action boosts - and yes i realize I can take both, but as a priority i think actions boosts are my biggest priority then 3d6 halfling damage, no mercy or KTA. No mercy is awesome, it's just enemies don't last long enough to make good use of it any more. Balanced attacks is still great for the cc effect and 50% damage boost even without no mercy.

So I am contemplating an assassin build taking

- 30% damage boost from LD as a twist
- 30 MP damage boost from Assassin
- 30% Haste boost from Acrobat
- Extra action boost from LD as a twist

27 actions boosts which is 9 minutes of boosts between shrines.

And ideally I would be human to to get the 20% action boost for 3 minutes. I may TR to a human next, but not until I get 50-100 quests in as a halfling. That would allow me to test as a human int build then etr to a dex build for a really good comparison. As an int build i would try to fit in KTA and all the action boosts, but the AP is really tight compared to a dex build so I would have to make much greater sacrifices to do so.

If improved feint can help me get more sneak damage in I would definitely consider it. As a human I gain one feat from insighful reflexes freed up and one extra feat as a human.

Thank you again for the info, it might take a while for me to complete my testing as I am working extra OT at my current assignment through may.

[slarden]

for soloing is great for 2 reasons:
- less players, less scaling, you can survive til the animation is done, it's like cleaving with improved deception weapon+gearpiece
- i used it as acrobat, and with 2 cleaves (because iirc you won't have time for a 3rd) with SA kills all the stuff

so the rotation would be:
- improved feint
- 2 cleaves
- run away with cocoon (i did it right before the enhancement pass, so no prr)
- improved feint
- lay waste?momentum swing? whichever is the aoe + great cleave

at that point everything would be dead

however don't forget it, you gotta see your hp dropping while using improved feint

you also can ignore it, cause iirc you couldn't fit all feats (i used something called... "circus" build, 13 rogue 6 monk 1 druid, was funny tho)

Interesting i can see this would be more useful on an acrobat. Thank you.

[Chaios]

Interesting point about auto-attack. I almost always turn it off and like to click.

With normal Bluff (which does have a long animation if you let it go), you can key Sunder to halt the delay and still get the bluff effect.

With Improved Feint you are stuck watching the entire animation. Anything that you key the same way (as far as I've figured out) will ruin the effect. As does moving or attacking. On an accidentally curtailed and ruined attempt to use Improved Feint, unfortunately, the cooldown will still go on 15 second rotation.

Thanks for the tip on Bluff/Sunder
I just tested IF a little and I see that you're right: taking any action (including auto-attacks) before the "bluffed" icon appears seems to prevent the bluff effect from taking place. The attack and damage happen, but the bluff effect doesn't. ****. At least Shiv seems to work right though.

This being the case, Slarden, I'd say IF isn't likely to help from a dps perspective. It might help if you like using IF-then-sneak to set up an assassination, but thats about it.

Using auto attack is tricky if you like to assassinate, you have to remember to turn it off anytime you go for an assassinate or it will pull you out of stealth. I usually only go into auto-attack when I'm gonna be cycling through special attacks for a while, so I don't lose anything if I hit an attack while its still on cooldown.

[dualscissors]

The description for Light Armor Mastery on the wiki shows a +1/2/3 max dodge (very helpful to have dodge cap lifters since all the added dodge can't be used since the cap is at a relatively low 25%).

However, the description for Light Armor Mastery in the game (hovering over the ability) only says the ability raises Max Dex Bonus and 2/4/6 PRR.

Is this also raising the Dodge Cap +1/2/3?

[redoubt]

The description for Light Armor Mastery on the wiki shows a +1/2/3 max dodge (very helpful to have dodge cap lifters since all the added dodge can't be used since the cap is at a relatively low 25%).

However, the description for Light Armor Mastery in the game (hovering over the ability) only says the ability raises Max Dex Bonus and 2/4/6 PRR.

Is this also raising the Dodge Cap +1/2/3?

I don't mean to offend by going too simplistic, but the wording here is critical, so please bear with me while I try to explain it clearly.

1. Maximum dodge. This starts at 25 and is only raised by things that specifically raise "maximum dodge". This is one of two things that can "cap" dodge.

2. Maximum Dex Bonus. This is unlimited when not wearing armor. When wearing armor it starts at the MDB stated on the armor and is raised by things that say they raise "maximum dex bonus" or "dex bonus" of armor. This is the second thing that can "cap" dodge.

3. Dodge is what you actually have and is limited by the lower of 1 & 2 above.

From the Wiki:
Light Armor Mastery: You gain 1/2/3 to Maximum Dodge. While wearing light armor, gain 2/4/6 to the Maximum Dexterity Bonus of your armor, -2/4/6 armor check penalty, and gain 2/4/6 Physical Resistance Rating.

So, it raises both things that can cap your dodge, but at different amounts.

You might also find this thread helpful:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/459238-Dodge-on-the-new-Dex-assassins

My in game tests and those of another in that thread show LAM to be raises both as expected. (+3 max dodge and +6 MDB.)

[slarden]

Thanks for the tip on Bluff/Sunder
I just tested IF a little and I see that you're right: taking any action (including auto-attacks) before the "bluffed" icon appears seems to prevent the bluff effect from taking place. The attack and damage happen, but the bluff effect doesn't. ****. At least Shiv seems to work right though.

This being the case, Slarden, I'd say IF isn't likely to help from a dps perspective. It might help if you like using IF-then-sneak to set up an assassination, but thats about it.

Using auto attack is tricky if you like to assassinate, you have to remember to turn it off anytime you go for an assassinate or it will pull you out of stealth. I usually only go into auto-attack when I'm gonna be cycling through special attacks for a while, so I don't lose anything if I hit an attack while its still on cooldown.

Yeah, it's too bad this didn't come up sooner, perhaps we could have got some dev attention to fix the animation. I have the room for 2 feats if I go human and even if I didn't I could fit it in. I still think ideally the combat expertise feat requirement should be removed and the animation should be fixed. This would make the feat work as it probably was intended to work.

Right now I am happy with Shiv, but always looking for ways to max my sneak damage - especially with the recent changes.

Thanks to all for the feedback on this. I am currently playing without balanced attack which also guarantees sneak attack damage when it procs on top of the 50% damage boost. I definitely need to bring this back in as a twist.

[dualscissors]

My in game tests and those of another in that thread show LAM to be raises both as expected. (+3 max dodge and +6 MDB.)

Thanks for the test, Redoubt.

[dualscissors]

Yeah, it's too bad this didn't come up sooner, perhaps we could have got some dev attention to fix the animation. I have the room for 2 feats if I go human and even if I didn't I could fit it in. I still think ideally the combat expertise feat requirement should be removed and the animation should be fixed. This would make the feat work as it probably was intended to work.

Right now I am happy with Shiv, but always looking for ways to max my sneak damage - especially with the recent changes.

Thanks to all for the feedback on this. I am currently playing without balanced attack which also guarantees sneak attack damage when it procs on top of the 50% damage boost. I definitely need to bring this back in as a twist.

This has been brought up in other threads here and there - since it would be excellent bluff-based CC for rogues, but in its current state is too often unusable in high level content where standing still for 3 seconds will get you maimed.

Also I mentioned Improved Feint very early in this thread. It's easy to imagine that it might've been buried, even if there was Dev interest in fixing it. Though I'm not sure that peripherals to rogue were being considered, just the enhancement lines themselves.

[slarden]

This has been brought up in other threads here and there - since it would be excellent bluff-based CC for rogues, but in its current state is too often unusable in high level content where standing still for 3 seconds will get you maimed.

Also I mentioned Improved Feint very early in this thread. It's easy to imagine that it might've been buried, even if there was Dev interest in fixing it. Though I'm not sure that peripherals to rogue were being considered, just the enhancement lines themselves.

Yeah that seems about right.

[nokowi]

While I can understand the reasons you mention for why they may not have made those changes in favor of int, it was the complete lack of any attempt to balance them that really stands out to me. They knew that we thought dex would kill int builds. They could have come up with their own options to create balance. But they didn't. And Sev cited some ridiculous reasons like int having more skills, getting 5 more points of damage from know the angles, and their mysterious dps tests as evidence of balance. All of that tells me they've made up their minds and that they seem to believe, no matter how much we disagree, that there is balance.

I could be completely wrong and they still are looking for ideas and are interested in our feedback. If that's the case, then I support your suggestions. I like them. If they're done, so be it. I don't mind making the switch to dex. All things eventually come to an end and it gives me a reason to play the game again on my assassin. Long live the dex based assassin!

I haven't played DDO since they announced Dex assassinate.

I am no longer able to log in and feel like I am playing DnD. All things do come to an end, but I had hoped I had many more years of DDO to play.

I am glad some of you will enjoy this change. Happy hunting!

[Jetrule]

I haven't played DDO since they announced Dex assassinate.

I am no longer able to log in and feel like I am playing DnD. All things do come to an end, but I had hoped I had many more years of DDO to play.

I am glad some of you will enjoy this change. Happy hunting!


Sad to hear. Sorry this update Killed your love for the game man.

[redoubt]

I haven't played DDO since they announced Dex assassinate.

I am no longer able to log in and feel like I am playing DnD. All things do come to an end, but I had hoped I had many more years of DDO to play.

I am glad some of you will enjoy this change. Happy hunting!

We've beat the INT/DEX horse to death, so I won't rehash that. But, while I agree with you that INT makes more sense to me, in playing as a recently converted DEX assassinate I have found:

1. Not getting agro I rewarded more now than ever.

2. With the boosted damage, you have to be more aware to keep from getting agro. On EE, I can actually pull agro if I'm not paying attention or I get a mob that has not taken much damage yet.

3. Assassinate feels exactly the same as far as mechanics go.

4. My level of active play has gone up and not down. I have two additional attacks that I've added to my cycle.

4a. I always put a heal under button 1. That is cocoon on this build.
4b. Shiv is in #2 and I keep it on timer all the time.
4c. Shrouding strike is #3 and I use it to fill out my shadow charges when assassinate is on timer and I keep it on timer because it is also a +3w attack
4d. Assassinate is next
4e. Sneak (I had to move this to the main hotbar to pop in and out more frequently to manage MTF and keep its stacks going.
4f. Assassin's Trick. I use it on anything that is sneak resistant.
4g. Con poison. I trigger this on any champions and bosses. (other mobs are dead too fast to bother.)
4h. Execute. I'll trigger this early on high HP bosses, but mostly I just hit it once when they are below 30%. I've not yet been able to trigger the 500 damage twice on one mob.
4i. Sly flourish. +3w and +3 crit range attack. I keep it on timer.
4J. uncanny dodge. for emergency use (like button 1.)
4k. My haste boost and bluff are actually on another hot bar and I have to start them with the mouse.

I say all of that because I know you were worried about assassin's becoming an easy button. For me this is still the most active and situational attack build I have. Used well, I find it very effective. I've also watch people flounder on assassins since the update and since the patch, though I have seen some pretty noteworthy repeater mechanics lately.

I got to run with CThru yesterday and that was pretty fun. I'd say you should give it a try at least. I think you might just still like it.

Note: All of this is in relation to EE. Lower difficulties don't matter much if you are EE ready and you can plow through them like always.
Note2: My testing has been in a group with a Stalwart Paladin in DC or US. (and then pugged out as many of the rest as we could.) I've found running with an intimitank is about the perfect way to maximize damage on an assassin.

[CThruTheEgo]

I haven't played DDO since they announced Dex assassinate.

I am no longer able to log in and feel like I am playing DnD. All things do come to an end, but I had hoped I had many more years of DDO to play.

I am glad some of you will enjoy this change. Happy hunting!

That's a shame nokowi. I have to say, though, I would agree 100% with redoubt's assessment. I haven't made the switch to dex based yet, but our damage has gone up enough, and is still heavily dependent on sneak attacks, that regardless of how you feel about dex vs int, the playstyle has not changed. I feel like the improvements we were asking for were made, if not in the exact form we wanted, but without changing the inherent unique playstyle of the assassin. The glass cannon is back! I hope you give it a try someday. You might be pleasantly surprised.

[slarden]

I haven't played DDO since they announced Dex assassinate.

I am no longer able to log in and feel like I am playing DnD. All things do come to an end, but I had hoped I had many more years of DDO to play.

I am glad some of you will enjoy this change. Happy hunting!

It's definitely the better choice over int, but Int builds still improved and dex opens up many fun new builds.

Take a break and then you'll probably be back and enjoy the changes.

All the Best.

[dualscissors]

I feel slower after the patch and with a break for vacation. Is Thief Acrobat "Fast Movement" not providing the +1%/rogue level speed boost?

[gwonbush]

I think it's the Chronoscope ship buff. It's now actually acting according to the description and only working in towns (dropping you from +40% run speed to +30% with full striding). Some of the times at least.

[CThruTheEgo]

I think it's the Chronoscope ship buff. It's now actually acting according to the description and only working in towns (dropping you from +40% run speed to +30% with full striding). Some of the times at least.

You mean we actually have to worry about striders again? Boo.

You know Turbine, little things like this don't need to be changed. They don't increase character power and are simply a convenience that increases our enjoyability of playing the game.

[gwonbush]

You mean we actually have to worry about striders again? Boo.

You know Turbine, little things like this don't need to be changed. They don't increase character power and are simply a convenience that increases our enjoyability of playing the game.

It's weird. I've been playing my acrobat recently and sometimes the speed goes away after I leave town. Then I reapply the ship buffs, and suddenly it works as it always did, only to later go away some hours later. I have yet to pinpoint a cause.

[CThruTheEgo]

It's weird. I've been playing my acrobat recently and sometimes the speed goes away after I leave town. Then I reapply the ship buffs, and suddenly it works as it always did, only to later go away some hours later. I have yet to pinpoint a cause.

If that's all it is, then nothing has changed. I haven't noticed this because I reapply my ship buffs every time I get on the ship, but I've heard several others say the movement speed stops working after about an hour and a half or so. Even though the buff icon is still there, the effect wears off. That might be what you're seeing.

[slarden]

I am playing a dex assassin now so I can say this without any sort of selfish motivation. I am currently playing this build and am at cap:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/459362-Halfling-Dex-Assassin-1-0

I did play a few quests on my int assassin after the last patch and did notice a DPS improvement, but overall several dex builds I've seen and the dex build I am playing are all superior to my previous int build or other int builds I've seen.

I still think these 2 things would balance out int and dex builds:

- Insightful Reflexes auto-granted @ level 20
- int damage and to-hit in the assassin core like it is for dex builds. This isn't going to hurt your harper sales because int builds will still want harper tree for KTA.

Right now int assassin is a trap for new and casual players. All I request is some attempt to balance int and dex builds - I have no concern about which is considered stronger. Right now the lack of balance is too much.

[dualscissors]

snip...

I still think these 2 things would balance out int and dex builds:

- Insightful Reflexes auto-granted @ level 20
- int damage and to-hit in the assassin core like it is for dex builds. This isn't going to hurt your harper sales because int builds will still want harper tree for KTA.

Right now int assassin is a trap for new and casual players. All I request is some attempt to balance int and dex builds - I have no concern about which is considered stronger. Right now the lack of balance is too much.

Cthru and I were talking about Consume. I thought that this ability emulating a medium DC Implosion-like, time-based instakill and being an Int only ability might even up Int vs. Dex somewhat. But currently I'm hearing the first kill will stop the effect from continuing. So even if you look at Shadowdancer and Dex vs. Int (Dex has Executioner's Strike), it looks to me Dex has a leg up.

[slarden]

Cthru and I were talking about Consume. I thought that this ability emulating a medium DC Implosion-like, time-based instakill and being an Int only ability might even up Int vs. Dex somewhat. But currently I'm hearing the first kill will stop the effect from continuing. So even if you look at Shadowdancer and Dex vs. Int (Dex has Executioner's Strike), it looks to me Dex has a leg up.

Yeah Shadow Manipulation and Consume are not worth the AP in my opinion. I tried them and they didn't seem very good to me. Executioner's Strike is definitely worth the 1 AP spend because even though it ony has a 35% success rate - it can be used while not in sneak and does decent damage even if it fails. DCs is high 60s or low 70s with shadow charges depending on your dex.

The only int-based destiny ability I liked was Daunting Roar.

[CThruTheEgo]

Yeah Shadow Manipulation and Consume are not worth the AP in my opinion. I tried them and they didn't seem very good to me. Executioner's Strike is definitely worth the 1 AP spend because even though it ony has a 35% success rate - it can be used while not in sneak and does decent damage even if it fails. DCs is high 60s or low 70s with shadow charges depending on your dex.

The only int-based destiny ability I liked was Daunting Roar.

I said no to shadow manipulation before the revamp because I considered the int more valuable. But with the extra DCs from the capstone, I think shadow manipulation is worth it and I did take it. That's not to say it is a significant advantage for int based, however. It has it's uses and there is plenty of flexibility in shadowdancer for int based now, but it's not a game changer by any means.

Consume was never worth it, and still isn't.

I never tried daunting roar but wish I had now.

I am still skeptical about executioner's strike. I think it's pretty lame that a DC based ability has a set percent chance of even proccing the DC check. Sorry Turbine, but I think those kind of limitations are just plain stupid. Based on your recommendation slarden, I will be giving it a try once I make the switch to dex, but I am still skeptical.

[VinoeWhines]

We've beat the INT/DEX horse to death, so I won't rehash that. But, while I agree with you that INT makes more sense to me, in playing as a recently converted DEX assassinate I have found:


I say all of that because I know you were worried about assassin's becoming an easy button. For me this is still the most active and situational attack build I have. Used well, I find it very effective. I've also watch people flounder on assassins since the update and since the patch, though I have seen some pretty noteworthy repeater mechanics lately.



Just curious, do you recall what/who these repeater mechanics were in what server?
Wondering about their build/feat choices, since new update, I'm still INT based.
What impressed/noteworthy things caught your attention?

[redoubt]

Just curious, do you recall what/who these repeater mechanics were in what server?
Wondering about their build/feat choices, since new update, I'm still INT based.
What impressed/noteworthy things caught your attention?

On Sarlona.

I don't know about their build specifics. I'm pretty sure several were halflings.

They seemed to do decent damage and were staying alive. Right after the update I saw a lot of different rogues and many assassins. The day I ran with CThru is the only day I had another assassin where we could actually start a friendly competition to see who was more lethal. I've noticed a decrease in assassin rogues in my pugs since the first couple weeks. I think people have tried them and maybe decided it was not their cup of tea. For repeater builds, I was used to seeing Artificers who could do well, but it looks, form the outside, that there are some good rogue repeater builds to go along with the artificers now.

Sorry, I can't be of more help there.

[VinoeWhines]

On Sarlona.

I don't know about their build specifics. I'm pretty sure several were halflings.

They seemed to do decent damage and were staying alive. Right after the update I saw a lot of different rogues and many assassins. The day I ran with CThru is the only day I had another assassin where we could actually start a friendly competition to see who was more lethal. I've noticed a decrease in assassin rogues in my pugs since the first couple weeks. I think people have tried them and maybe decided it was not their cup of tea. For repeater builds, I was used to seeing Artificers who could do well, but it looks, form the outside, that there are some good rogue repeater builds to go along with the artificers now.

Sorry, I can't be of more help there.

No problem, was just curious. I'm an Assassin but I focus on 80% range 20% melee roughly around there.
The nice thing about repeaters is that by the time they get to you, they can be 80% +/- down health wise before they attack you. And if their are multiples coming after you, you can kite and kill through two/three/four of them at once with IPS, to manage the aggro that a PUG might bring, that and Ddoor is very helpful.

I run on Sarlona as well, I've ran with Cthru a few times a long time ago.
If your on wouldn't mind running some EE quests with you as well or any of the posters.

[Craftsmann]

The biggest problem with the rogue build now is not the enhancement tree, but the fact that they get hit by every ranged mob in the game. My hide / move silently skills are close to 100 yet I constantly have my sneak broken by stupid archers. It is very annoying to get right up to a mob and have your stealth broken by some mob not even near the fight.

Rogue needs to be Artificer to do more not less as pure rogue! Should be Artificer to do all combat, use defender, and use runearm to kill all. As Artificer will advance twice as fast!:D

[Souless]

Correct. It isn't meant for the middle of a fight. It's an opener for solo rogues.

Sev~

So any fight that lasts longer than 10 sec's and oops sorry Mr. Rogue u can't use this enh anymore....Lame.




In a raid you should be dealing out tons of Sneak Attack damage so you are probably fine there.

Sev~

Probably?!?! HAHAHahahahahaha. That's another way of saying you don't know. And that only applies to the boss. Last time I checked there were more than just bosses in a raid. 51 pages of this, and I couldn't even make it through page 1 of comments.

The problems are:

1. Everything takes u out of stealth mode, archers, melee, and spells. Making the assassination ruthlessly difficult to pull off mid combat.
2. Raid bosses (and many other mobs) are immune. Negating the Enh completely.
3. For Assassin's Trick--Animation is FAR TOO SLOW to be useful, and it breaks the attack chain.

And worse, there were ppl saying that the Assassination enh was OP on page 1. Again, laughable. When there are casters running around with multiple insta-kills, it's silly to say this enh is OP. When compared to it's closest relative (Coupe), it's underwhelming.




Rogues have UMD and don't have Rage preventing them from casting if they need a healing source.

Sev~

Because there is ALWAYS time to throw a scroll in the middle of combat...These comments are laughable. Barbs don't need to throw scrolls to be healed in combat. By your own logic; a Barb doesn't need to use rage, then he could throw his own heal scroll. This is just faulty logic, avoidance of the problems isn't a fix. And you haven't considered the self healing nerf for Reaper content, which Barbs are unaffected by, since the heal is scaled with MP not conventional scroll healing.


The specifics of TWF are probably off topic for this thread.

Sev~


Hmm....let's not consider TWF when talking about the rogue...huh? It absolutely matters, because with the new pathing, NOTHING STAYS STILL LONG ENOUGH TO ACCOUNT FOR THE NERFING OF TWF!!!! Or if the mob isn't moving (not active) you can't sneak in and assassinate it because u can't target it. I think that you guys (Devs) should think some more on how to "fix the Assassin".


The Bytcher~

Souless/Spectyr/Xbow/Valice/Tazzor/Xindao